31000 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 5, 2004 11:16pm Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hi Jeff, Jeff: From my point of view, the three suttas on sati, (Anapanasati, Satipatthana and Maha-satipatthana) are all the same practice regimen, they are just described as beginning, intermediate and advanced level instruction. If we assume this is true, then any differences between the suttas must have to do with the focus of the instruction. James: I don't agree with your point of view. The Buddha didn't say that those suttas described `levels' of practice. I believe that those suttas are describing the same practice from different perspectives. The Buddha only described `levels' of practice when it came to jhana. Jeff, the rest of this post is very confused and seems to be arguing issues that I didn't state. I don't feel inclined to go through and try to sort out my true positions from the false positions that you attribute to me. Go back to my original post and directly quote from that and then respond to the quotes. Your paraphrases of my post are false and misleading. If you do that I will respond further. Metta, James ps. I hope you have an enjoyable time at Wat Promkunaram this weekend. Say Hi to Ajahn Winai and Phra Wichit for me! ;-) 31001 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 3:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Dear Jeff, Have you ever known postgraduate level and doctorial level regarding those three suttas you mentioined that is anapanasati, satipatthana, and mahasatipatthana? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 31002 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 3:38am Subject: Re: "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi James. > James: Yes, I can tell. Maybe you want to be liked by everybody as > well?? P: Maybe. But it just seems to happen that way. Brahma-viharas, I guess. I have done my share of lashing out at people in other forums, but those days are done, hopefully. >James: Hehehe?E promise that I won't be making `constant' references > to any such thing. But, of course, if you start to get too slobbery > I can't promise that I won't slap you down a bit. P: I don't think the Buddha taught bitch slapping. But then again, I guess he was rough on overly enthusiastic students, as in the sutta Rob K quoted before he left us. Before you do, however, please let your finger linger over the "send" button and ask yourself honestly if you are adding to understanding of dhamma, or just defending your own views. See "Lord of speech" in that excellent link you provided me. I think you fancy yourself as a Buddhist writer - but a Buddhist is as a Buddhist does, not as he or she writes. And bitch slapping without very good cause is not good Buddhism. >You remind me a bit of a Labrador puppy: just so excited > and must be petted by everyone RIGHT THIS SECOND! P: I am excited, that's for sure. Can you remember when you first found out about the Abhidhamma? I still haven't come down, and it's been about two weeks. I guess it's because I now have a foundation of reality to practice brahma-viharas on. It's all coming together. > My nature is > that I immediately want to train such exuberance into something > majestic. I am a natural teacher, what can I say? P: Good lord, James. what sort of Buddhist would want to be majestic? This makes you sound like the "Buddhist" Kevin Kline played in A Fish Called Wanda. And it makes me doubt your dhamma goods. > James: That is simply not true. You misunderstand. (snip) I believe her `understanding' of the > Abhidhamma is obviously far superior than my own. P:I should hope so. Please keep that in mind when you address her. > My motives were not nefarious. P:I know. I never meant to suggest that. > because this group would become very boring if everyone agreed with > each other all the time. There wouldn't be any growth, only > stagnation. Healthy debate is a way to strengthen ideas and develop > greater understanding. It is difficult to learn and grow in a vacuum. P: Well, "boring" is not a word I would use, because Buddhism is not about stimulation. But you may have a point about the benefits of debate. Personally, I've been through enough of it in other forums and I would prefer to practice in a common, shared tradition, with a healthy amount of correction and gentle suggestions. But to each his own. I don't have it on hand, but the post Rob K wrote about the dhamma flowing like a stream must have contained something about what I'm getting at. Arrogance (see "majestic") and jarring statements ("I don't think your teaching is true dhamma" or whatever it was you said to Nina in that post last week) don't lead to growth, unless of course it's helping the recipient learn more about what to do with dosa. >Do you want me to leave this > group, Philip? Just ask me directly to leave and I will leave. Wow. What power...hmm...I feel like God. If I said yes, would that make me....majestic? ;) > James: Nina and I have been corresponding off-list and I don't think > that would happen. She knows that I have a deep respect for her and > her dedication to the dhamma. Believe it or not, she isn't made of > glass. ;-)) She can take some constructive criticisms from one person > without forfeiting her greater vision of teaching and spreading the > dhamma. Ph: You're right. She doesn't need me to stick up for her. > they were not discussing the death of a life partner! What were you > reading? They were discussing how Nina teaches the dhamma; how she > can best present the dhamma and Abhidhamma so as to reach more > people. There was nothing sacrosanct about that discussion that I > couldn't refer to it. Ph: You're right. It was the passage I quoted in the post that referred to the death of a life partner. You're absolutely right here. > James: Be careful, your wife may get very jealous! ;-)) Ph: Too late. She has already removed your photo from the album. Watch out, James. She knows weird mountain voodoo stuff from Aomori prefecture. Well, as I said in another post about that spammer, it's foolish to make wishes about other people's behaviour. You will do what you will do. And the obvious think to do if your mesgs continue to bug me is not read them. I do want to hear more about Egypt. I wonder if the pyramids are what put that "majestic" crap in your head? ;) Metta, Phil p.s any replies off list please. I've taken up enough board space with this. 31003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] : Bangkok Icaro, Mike and all --- icarofranca wrote: > Hi Mike ... > I use the IBM Viva Voice Standrad with plenty of success! It's > more or less cumbersome to install and tweak out, but it works > wonderfully! > I barely take hand on keyboard! And I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in my office. Actually, Tom Westheimer, one of our lurking members, runs a business that supplies and trains in the use of VR (voice-recognition) software, and he's always happy to help. I can give his email address to anyone who's interested. Jon 31004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Michael and James Personally, I have no problem with any of the following statements: 1. All dhammas are to be known as nama and rupa 2. All dhammas are either nama or rupa 3. There are only nama and rupa although each carries its own connotations and emphasis. I think that complete absence of 'ontological commitment' in ordinary speech (even about dhammas) is not really practical, as it puts too much constraint on expression. However, it's good to be reminded from time to time that all dhammas are indeed conditioned and insubstantial. It is also, as I see it, important to understand how dhammas differ from concepts ;-)) Jon --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon & James, > > Cannot resist to butt in one of my 'hobby horses' in this list: > > Would be better to say 'all dhammas are known as namas and rupas > but they don't really exist, are mere appearances'. In this way one > is reaffirming the psychological focus in the teachings with no > ontological commitment. 31005 From: Larry Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 6:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Nina, Here are a couple of thoughts in reply: First, do you agree that from "contact" to "clinging" in Dependent Arising is the same as consciousness process? If so, what role does "clinging" play? My contention is that it is accumulation. Second, I can see why you would want to maintain the distinguishing characteristics of lobha and moha, but it seems to me in Dependent Arising all three root cittas are included in the category of "thirst" (tanha). What about that? Larry 31006 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi James, op 05-03-2004 07:47 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: J: I look into your statement "There are only > nama and rupa" much deeper than you assume. > > This is an ontological statement, a statement of existence, and so it > should withstand certain criteria of evaluation... N: A very kind and gentle James, in the temple with an angelic little girl who has devoutedly folded her hands and follows James everywhere, imitating him all the time. This is a mental image I have of a snapshot, taken at a certain point in time. This moment has fallen away long ago and it never comes back in the cycle of birth and death. Kindness cannot stay, it has to fall away, that is the dukkha aspect. I like my story, my mental image, I wish it would last, but that is only an illusion. Who is James? Is there anything else but mental phenomena and physical phenomena arising and falling away? Cittas are running on, succeeding one another. It seems that thinking lasts, but yesterday's thinking has completely gone, how can we call it James. Is seeing James, is hearing James? Bodily phenomena like eyesense, earsense, heat or cold are arising and then falling away but they are replaced so long as there are conditions for them to be replaced. When your last moment in this life has come, nama and rupa fall away just as they do now. But so long as we are in the cycle kamma will produce rebirth-consciousness again, and if rebirth is in a five khandhas plane also rupas will be produced from the first moment of life. That is the Dependent Origination, and this concerns our life now. It is not some abstract theory. Your relatives and friends in this world will only keep a mental image of James, and your name will be remembered, but not for long, and soon you will be forgotten. That is the story of life. To me the Abhidhamma is not a subject of academic interest suitable for debating. It explains the story of life. If I can help someone to see that the Abhidhamma deals with our life I am delighted. I like to share what I learnt and make the texts come to life. But do not expect from me a philosophical, or even a logical answer. I like to give plain style, direct answers. Above I tried to explain in my non-academical way the difference between concept or conventional truth and absolute reality. It depends on your interest whether you like me to explain more of the ADL Book. Do feel free. As for me, I need a lot of time to concentrate on my own work, my Thai impressions. I cannot answer questions immediately, have to take my time. It is very good if others butt in. Moreover, a way of explaining is a personal matter. That is why it is good we are here in a forum. If the style of one person is not suitable to you, and this is very understandable, someone else's may. Now some chatting. Your father must miss you, therefore he likes you to write daily, and are you the only child left after the family tragedy? you could make your letters like a diary. How did your parents get over it? I am glad you explained about the use of language in your family. I find it admirable that you became a teacher in English language, and writing in such a good style; how did you manage it all? And you published books? Did you take the shrine with your sister's ashes to Cairo? Did this help you to get over the loss? I am just like the star kids asking so many questions. Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. Nina. 31007 From: shakti Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] : Bangkok Jon, Mike, Icaro and others, Thanks for the info on voice activated software. As I will be taking a month off from work and computers while traveling in Thailand, I am hopeful that I won't need it when I. However, I will still check out the program just in case. Thanks, Shakti Jonothan Abbott wrote: Icaro, Mike and all --- icarofranca wrote: > Hi Mike ... > I use the IBM Viva Voice Standrad with plenty of success! It's > more or less cumbersome to install and tweak out, but it works > wonderfully! > I barely take hand on keyboard! And I use Dragon Naturally Speaking in my office. Actually, Tom Westheimer, one of our lurking members, runs a business that supplies and trains in the use of VR (voice-recognition) software, and he's always happy to help. I can give his email address to anyone who's interested. Jon 31008 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Dear Philip, don't worry, I had to laugh about what you write. I won't be packing in! Although sometimes the work is so overwhelming, there are so many posts and I have to write now about Thailand. I was tempted to contemplate a sabbatical, like Robert :-)) But I do not want to let Sarah, Jon, and Larry with his Vis. thread down. I was glad James appreciated Lodewijk, as Howard does also. James and I understand each other and he knows my sensitiveness. You read now those old posts about Abhidhamma, and that is past for him. Besides, we had, at that time, off line very nice exchanges after our Abhidhamma clash. I did not see rudeness in his recent post, and the fact that he thinks I go against the Buddha's teachings, well, that is the usual. Here I think really like a Dutch proverb: unknown is unloved. In other words, when people have not understood yet, they believe that Abhidhamma is against the Buddha's teachings, but, I really like to help people so that they in this respect change their minds. I just do the best I can. Nina. op 05-03-2004 23:58 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > My concern, however, is that Nina will one day decide that she > doesn't want to deal with the irritation that your posts may bring > her and decide to pack it in. She is busy with so many projects, I'm > sure, and has come to a point in her life when she will want to focus > on what is most important for her. So for perfectly selfish reasons I > ask you to be more considerate in the tone you use when writing to > her. For example, in the "My wife has turned into..." thread, you > referred to a very sensitive discussion between Nina and her husband > that she was kind enough to share with us, and you reduced it to a > simplified "I agree with your husband against you except for this" > statement. That was so rude, and showed such a lack of respect. Read > her post again, and think deeply about what she was sharing and what > was being discussed in real terms. 31009 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: Khun Sujin [Re: [dsg]gold medal and mud. Hi Howard, I am really glad with the however section, but the first part really hurts. So, the worldly conditions again: one day a gold medal, the next day, just mud!!! Pure mud and a good load of it. Can you point out her being idiosyncratic, and then as to the followers (I dislike this word), being doctrinnaire and not flexible??? The however part does not mean much, because you say: she is idiosyncratic, but inspite of it very kind. Nina. op 05-03-2004 20:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > As you know, I'm not an Abhidhammika, nor am I a devotee of Khun Sujin. I even > think that her approach to the Dhamma is somewhat idiosyncratic, though > perhaps actually less doctrinnaire and more flexible than that of some of her > followers. ;-). > But now, the "however" section of my post: However, I do enjoy and benefit > from much of what she has written, and moreover, from the anecdotes I have > read of her, I think it likely that that she is a very kind human being, and > very much devoted to the Dhamma. Also, I suspect that she, herself, has > probably developed quite a significant practice of ongoing mindfulness and > guarding the senses, because I detect a sense of direct experience in her > writing, and not just intellectual contemplation. 31010 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi James, I had a real good laugh about your answers. Nina. op 06-03-2004 07:34 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > James: I guess I'm a real bastard, what can I say?? Hehehe… Philip, > they were not discussing the death of a life partner! What were you > reading? They were discussing how Nina teaches the dhamma; how she > can best present the dhamma and Abhidhamma so as to reach more > people. There was nothing sacrosanct about that discussion that I > couldn't refer to it. 31011 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Dear Nina and James - It is a privilege, I feel, to be able to listen in on this warm, caring, lovely conversation between you. Intellect may be illuminating and certainly fascinating, but this side of nibbana, heart is where the greatest joy is. And I see so much heart here. I really like what you have to say below, Nina. I like it because of the superb description of the ongoing flow of impersonal dhammas, but even more because of how you mix in your recollection of a beautiful moment, a memory of something quite conventional that adds joy to this life. In discussing materiality and mentality in this post and the usefulness of directly seeing and understanding these for what they are, you go on to conclude that Abhidhamma is more than of mere academic interest. I believe this is true, but more generally, it is the Dhamma of the Buddha, stated directly in the suttas and expounded in primer-form in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, that is of more than academic interest. The heart of the Dhamma is to be found in the direct experience and understanding of what is real. Withg metta, Howard In a message dated 3/6/2004 1:09:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi James, > op 05-03-2004 07:47 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > J: I look into your statement "There are only > > nama and rupa" much deeper than you assume. > > > > This is an ontological statement, a statement of existence, and so it > > should withstand certain criteria of evaluation... > N: A very kind and gentle James, in the temple with an angelic little girl > who has devoutedly folded her hands and follows James everywhere, imitating > him all the time. This is a mental image I have of a snapshot, taken at a > certain point in time. This moment has fallen away long ago and it never > comes back in the cycle of birth and death. Kindness cannot stay, it has to > fall away, that is the dukkha aspect. I like my story, my mental image, I > wish it would last, but that is only an illusion. > Who is James? Is there anything else but mental phenomena and physical > phenomena arising and falling away? Cittas are running on, succeeding one > another. It seems that thinking lasts, but yesterday's thinking has > completely gone, how can we call it James. Is seeing James, is hearing > James? Bodily phenomena like eyesense, earsense, heat or cold are arising > and then falling away but they are replaced so long as there are conditions > for them to be replaced. When your last moment in this life has come, nama > and rupa fall away just as they do now. But so long as we are in the cycle > kamma will produce rebirth-consciousness again, and if rebirth is in a five > khandhas plane also rupas will be produced from the first moment of life. > That is the Dependent Origination, and this concerns our life now. It is not > some abstract theory. 31012 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 1:05pm Subject: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 Dear Group, Here the Buddha speaks of our angry reactions to the words of others as being a fetter. (I have to say I always smile at the rapid change in Akkosaka's demeanour from "Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words" to his very next answer to the Blessed One's question as "Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests." Something seems to have been lost in the condensation - or perhaps the initial insulting and cursing is a ritual form of debate? § 2.9. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then the brahman Akkosaka ("Insulter") Bharadvaja heard that a brahman of the Bharadvaja clan had gone forth from the home life into homelessness in the presence of the Blessed One. Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words. When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "What do you think, brahman: Do friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to you as guests?" "Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests." "And what do you think: Do you serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies?" "Yes, sometimes I serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies." "And if they don't accept them, to whom do those foods belong?" "If they don't accept them, Master Gotama, those foods are all mine." "In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours. "Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours." "The king together with his court know this of Master Gotama -- 'Gotama the contemplative is an arahant' -- and yet still Master Gotama gets angry." [The Buddha:] Whence is there anger for one free from anger, tamed, living in tune -- one released through right knowing, calmed & Such. You make things worse when you flare up at someone who's angry. Whoever doesn't flare up at someone who's angry wins a battle hard to win. You live for the good of both -- your own, the other's -- when, knowing the other's provoked, you mindfully grow calm. When you work the cure of both -- your own, the other's -- those who think you a fool know nothing of Dhamma. When this was said, the brahman Akkosaka Bharadvaja said to the Blessed One, "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. Let me obtain the going forth in Master Gotama's presence, let me obtain admission." Then the brahman Akkosaka Bharadvaja received the going forth & the admission in the Blessed One's presence. And not long after his admission -- dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute -- he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And so Ven. Bharadvaja became another one of the Arahants. [SN VII.2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31013 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 2:55pm Subject: Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi KenO, Sarah, All, In any case, being born human at all is great but lobha > led all of here and even good kamma is still kamma. > K: Being human born where Budda dhamma is still around is even greater :). C: And good friends to help us see just how great that is! Thanks, Sarah. I had a great day following UP on your suggestions and eventually found myself being reminded in Nina's Dhamma Issues that not only the arahats, but aslo the sotapanna's behaviour is beyond my measure. The example from ch 8: It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not engage in slandering which can divide others, because he has eradicated all akusala kamma that can cause rebirth in an unhappy plane. He has also eradicated jealousy and stinginess. However, sometimes the sotåpanna should say what is true for the benefit of others without there being the unwholesome intention of using speech which could cause division among others. However, others could mistakenly take this for speech that causes division because it may seem to be slandering. Moreover, the sotåpanna can still speak with aversion, dosa, since he has not eradicated aversion. More to the point in my daily life, I can't know anyone else's citta and am easily fooled into taking 'my' akusala for kusala. I really like this one, too: 2. The "Dispeller of Delusion", Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, Decads, 2162, explains about the remaining rebirths of each class of sotåpannas, and in particular about the sotåpanna who is attached to life in the process of existence (va.t.ta, the cycle of birth and death). We read: "For the Master, after judging with the Buddha's judgement, after defining with omniscient knowledge that: 'This person has the greatest understanding of all and keen insight and he will grasp Arahatship after producing one existence more only,' created the name 'One with a single seed' (ekabíjin); [knowing] that: 'This person will grasp Arahatship after producing a second, a third, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth existence,' he created the name 'One who goes from clan to clan' (kola"nkola); [knowing] that: 'This person will grasp Arahatship after producing the seventh existence,' he created the name 'seven times at most' (sattakkhattuparama). But there is no person who is certain of seven existences. But the Noble Disciple attains complete extinction before the eight existence in whatever way his understanding is slow. He only goes to a seventh existence, even if he enjoys the process [of existence] as much as Sakka. ***In the seventh existence, even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to ripen.*** Feeling revulsion for even the smallest object, he arrives at peace." I think the sotapanna would know they had entered the stream during the remainer of the lifetime it happened in, but do they carry that certainty with them into their next lives? Sarah: A few more details on the conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta and the reasons for time, place and family for the birth of the future Buddha as given in the Introduction to the Jataka Tales: ***** Conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish ***** Curious. I'd think if the conditions were there, enlightenment would just happen. So what condition(s) does he 'control' or 'withold'? peace, connie 31014 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Kapow!" and "Balmo!!" in the Pali canon Hello Ícaro, I really enjoyed your little message. It brought quite a bit of sukha and piiti to me this day. I think you are onto something here. Maybe we should put more sound effects, into the Pali canon, maybe more people will read it. Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/4/04 2:25:36 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:30:50 -0000 From: "icarofranca" Subject: Re: (unknown) Dear Howard: > ========================== > In my opinion, a joyful exhuberance is always welcome!! It is good to smile broadly snd to laugh with gusto. I'm quite willing to wait for the Mona Lisa smile of an arahant, and meanwhile I'll enjoy a hearty belly laugh whenever possible! > ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- I will put more verbs with BOOM! CRASH! KLANG! I will put more sounds like the round spelled "Ayin" I will put more substantives like Mae West's breasts... I will put more salt & pepper at the Putthujhanas, I will put more to and fro at Vipassana, I will put more strange rules at Patthimoka, I will put more action at PaccekaBuddhas` curriculum vitae ...And I will run away before Sarah put me on stakes! ( I would try to put it on a Rhyme of I could have time...hahahah!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro >> 31015 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Guarding the sense doors (was "To sleep, perchance to dream.") Icaro A little bit more on restraint of faculties/guarding the sense doors. I think the passage that I quoted before from Visuddhi-Magga speaks to the power of mindfulness. I like the reference to mindfulness being like a door panel that has the effect of completely blocking the sense-door to any intrusion by defilements. Further on there is another reference to the role of mindfulness in the guarding of the sense doors: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 100. (b) And ... restraint of the sense faculties should be undertaken with mindfulness. For that is accomplished by mindfulness, because when the sense faculties’ functions are founded on mindfulness, there is no liability to invasion by covetousness and the rest. So, recollecting the Fire Discourse, which begins thus, ‘Better, bhikkhus, the extirpation of the eye faculty by a red-hot burning blazing glowing iron spike than the apprehension of signs in the particulars of visible objects cognizable by the eye’ (S.iv, 168), this [restraint] should be properly undertaken by preventing with unremitting mindfulness any apprehension, in the objective fields consisting of visible data, etc., of any signs, etc., likely to encourage covetousness, etc., to invade consciousness occurring in connection with the eye door, and so on. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The passage goes on to liken a mind without mindfulness as 'a crop not fenced in with branches' that is then 'raided by the robber defilements as a village with open gates is by thieves', with the result that 'lust leaks into his mind as rain does into a badly-roofed house'. It gives the following verses (101): <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ‘Among the visible objects, sounds, and smells, ‘And tastes, and tangibles, guard the faculties; ‘For when these doors are open and unguarded, ‘Then thieves will come and raid as ‘twere a village’(?) ‘And just as with an ill-roofed house ‘The rain comes leaking in, so too ‘Will lust come leaking in for sure ‘upon an undeveloped mind’ (Dh.13) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- icarofranca wrote: > Dear Sarah: ... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jon quoted from the Vism1: "He enters upon the way of its restraint': [the meaning is] he enters upon the way of *closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness*. It is the same one of whom it is said 'he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty'." ---------------------------------------------------------------- This is the more obscure quote out of Vism I ever read. I oughted to lay down over the text, reading and reading it attentively 'till it begins to make sense for me... it's something like Citta were a concrete and continuous being or mind-flux states, in which there is no possible holes and vacuum: the raise of unvirtuousness, forgetfullness, etc, at the very moment of impulsion takes aside the eye-faculty restraint and simultaneously, like the old photo-revelation by chemical means, makes surge the non-restraint of eye-faculty as the silver nitrate compound on paper! Very interesting! 31016 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 5:09pm Subject: too much Nina: "I was tempted to contemplate a sabbatical, like Robert :-)) But I do not want to let Sarah, Jon, and Larry with his Vis. thread down." Hi Nina, Whatever we do we don't want to wear you out. In fact I can do without a translation of the entire commentary. Much of it doesn't add anything to my understanding. It is your own commentary that I am mostly interested in. Also I would very much like to hear from Suan and Htoo on this thread. Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people asking questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage of it. If there is a serious ambition to translate the whole commentary perhaps you could enlist some help from the Pali list or the Foundation. Larry 31017 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello Jack, I thought your points were excellently expressed. What is the big deal about "right understanding?" It seems that it is a way for insight practitioners to find some line to draw between their tidy little patch of dry farming and the moist rain forest of jhana. It reminds me of the two yards that are almost adjoining. One neighbor is armed with chemical defoliants to kill all signs of life as they creep over from the guy next door who is rain harvesting and mulching his organic garden. Many kind regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/5/04 11:10:11 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:26:53 EST From: Jackhat1@a... Subject: Re: Re: the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 3/1/04 4:14:57 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: I really know almost nothing about jhana. I agree with Howard that the Buddha 'never advised against meditating' if we are referring to samatha and vipassana bhavana here. What I questioned in my treadmill post to Victor (or thought I was questioning) was the link, the understanding involved for those of us today who specially sit and focus on a particular object. This is because, as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is essential for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. Is there any room for agreement on the last paragraph? If not, that's fine too;-) Sarah, I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper understanding of an object is necessary before one does samadhi/vipassana meditation? I also am not sure what you mean by proper understanding of an object. If one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what does one have to understand about it before using it in mental development? Sorry, but the more times I read your above comments the more confused I got. I couldn't find the post you sent to Victor so that might be my problem. Jack >> 31018 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi Philip & All, --- Philip wrote: > P: I am excited, that's for sure. Can you remember when you first > found out about the Abhidhamma? I still haven't come down, and it's > been about two weeks. I guess it's because I now have a foundation of > reality to practice brahma-viharas on. It's all coming together. .... S:Yes, I remember having a similar response to yours and a feeling of a big load lifted off my shoulders. In a BPS Bodhi leaves series, there is one (no75) by Nina on the Perfections taken from a series of letters. I forget if the same detail is in the book you’re reading or on line. Under patience (khanti) she quotes from the Sabbaasava Sutta, MN2, which some of us were quoting from recently (topics of speech thread). In the section under ‘Taints to be Abandoned by Enduring’, we read in the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation: “ ‘What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by enduring? Here a bhikkhu reflecting wisely, bears cold and heat, hunger and thirst, and contact with gadflies, mosquitoes, wind, the sun, and creeping things; he endures ill-spoken, unwelcome words and arisen bodily feelings that are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, distressing, and menacing to life. While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not endure such things, there ae no taints, vexation, or fever in one who endures them. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by enduring.’” ***** After quoting this passage, Nina writes: “Can we endure ‘ways of speech that are irksome, unwelcome’? Are we always forbearing in regard to other people and patient with ourselves? We tend to be impatient sometimes when we do not notice a rapid progress in wisdom. We should accumulate paitence and the way to do this is mindfulness of nama and rupa.” ***** James: >>Healthy debate is a way to strengthen ideas and > develop > > greater understanding. It is difficult to learn and grow in a > vacuum. .... S:I agree with James on this point. During the last few months I think that not only has there been a very high volume of posts here but the quality has been exceptional and this is largely due to the keen questioning of knotty issues and repeated clarifications on points coming up in Vism thanks to Larry & Nina, Michael’s persistent questioning of Theravada terminology & issues, Howard’s and James’s picking up anything which sounds ‘doctrinnaire’ to them (still not sure what it means though;-)),Victor’s calls for further anatta discussions and so on. As far as I’m concerned, there is no requirement at all that anyone should agree with anything anyone else says (no one needs 'followers' or to follow blindly) and I learn a tremendous amount from these discussions, not least of which is being honest about my own responses and reactions. I also greatly enjoy reading the suttas Victor, James, Chris and many others select - so many melodies;-). Of course with such high volume there are bound to be the occasional ill-considered comments (like many of my own frivolous ones), but we need to be patient and learn a little detachment towards our own short-comings too;-) There will always be some background noise - better to let it go (reflecting on the timely sutta Christine just quoted) and focus on all the excellent dhamma we can share together. Here are two more quotes I find helpful from A.Sujin in her book ‘Metta’, transl by Nina, which Mike’s posts encourage me to revisit: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 1.” The development of right understanding of realities, satipatthana, can be the condition for more metta. Panna, right understanding, knows that what one takes for beings, people or self are only mental phenomena, nama dhammas, and physical phenomena, rupa dhammas....” ..... 2. “We should not only try to develop metta when anger arises, but also when there is attachment. We should consider with what kind of citta we think of our friends, our circle of relatives, those who are near and dear to us. We should find out whether there are at such moments cittas with metta or cittas with lobha, and we should learn by our own experience the difference between these moments. If we earnestly wish to develop metta we should not waste any opportunity to learn abou the characteristics of our different cittas so that there are conditions for the development of metta. It is useless to think that we should develop metta only when we become angry.” ***** Philip, I’d be glad if you’d continue to share anything further of significance in ADL, Perfections or the other books you’re reading in your own way. Please continue your wonderful contributions. Like Nina, replies to my posts are always very optional -- note how flexible we are, Howard ;-)-- and we all get very busy at times. Metta, Sarah p.s Andy in Manchester, how is your ADL and CMA reading going these days?? ====== 31019 From: Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Four paths of Knowledge or one? Hello Htoo Naing, yes of course. Jeff In a message dated 3/6/04 11:17:55 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:06:51 -0000 From: "htootintnaing" Subject: Re: Four paths of Knowledge or one? Dear Jeff, Have you ever known postgraduate level and doctorial level regarding those three suttas you mentioined that is anapanasati, satipatthana, and mahasatipatthana? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing >> 31020 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] too much Hi Larry, Rob K and Nina Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people > asking questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, > ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage > of it. k: Larry I am enjoying the thread. Since you have been asking those questions, so that is no need for me to ask. Also since the expert Nina is answering your questions, so there is no need for me to answer. Isn't that wonderful just being a spectator. But that does not mean I dont cherish this thread by you and Nina. I am now writing to tell you please do not be disappointed just because we are watching and I guess that there are also lurkers who enjoy it also. Keep it up the good work :) k: RobK and Nina come to think about sabbatical, it strikes me that nothing is permanent. Everyone has to leave eventually including this list. I feel that as long as we have done our best in practicing, upholding and spreading dhamma, we have live our life not in vain. You have done the Teacher proud in uphelding and promoting the dhamma. In the meantime lets enjoy the dhamma together while we still can. Three Cheers :-). Ken O 31021 From: Andrew Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Reflections on Upadhi Hello Everyone According to the PTS dictionary, "upadhi" means "...(2) clinging to rebirth (as impeding spiritual progress), attachment (almost syn. with kilesa or tanha, cp. nirupadhi & anupadhi)..." I came across the word in H. Saddhatissa's translation of the Sutta- Nipata, in particular, the Dhaniya Sutta: "16 Mara now appeared to tempt him [Dhaniya]: He who has children delights on account of the children. He who has cattle likewise delights on account of cattle. For the delights of man are on account of elements of sensory existence (upadhi) alone. He who has no upadhi has no delight. 17 The Buddha: He who has children has grief on account of his children. He who has cattle has grief on account of cattle. For upadhi is the cause of the sorrows of men, but he who has no upadhi has no sorrow." Here at Cooran, the health of Sandra's father has taken a turn for the worse. He is a month short of his 90th birthday, has emphysema and only 30% lung function. Although on oxygen, his breathing is laboured and he has told us that he is sick of struggling and feels his time is near. This has made me reflect alot on the first Noble Truth. I suspect my reaction is more dosa than panna. At the same time, we have had a great storm here and the creeks are swollen. In fact, all the bridges were impassable for a day or so. I went down to the shop in glorious sunlight and watched all the children splashing about in the water, the older boys diving off the bridge and having a great time, just as I used to do when I was their age. It was a delightful scene. How quickly the mind flits from (perhaps) some direct experience of a gross form of dukkha to the delights of upadhi! And how STRONG upadhi is! Can anyone tell me where upadhi fits into Abhidhamma? Is it synonymous with a cetasika like jivitindriya or chanda or lobha or moha? TIA. Best wishes Andrew 31022 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] too much Larry I know you're eager to move on with the Vis quotes, and I agree that your series is ground-breaking, but the same must also be said for Nina's translation of the tika, and I appreciate very much the combination of text, discussion and tika; so I wouldn't want to miss the tika if Nina is happy to do the translation. I think the 'problem' at the moment is that February was such a bumper month for posts that everyone is a little out of breath as far as working on new material is concerned. In my view the quality of the discussion, your own posts included, has been outstanding, and I have enjoyed reading every one of them, as Sarah and I do together without fail. Anyway, do keep up the good work. For me, slowly-slowly is just fine ;-)) Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... Hi Nina, Whatever we do we don't want to wear you out. In fact I can do without a translation of the entire commentary. Much of it doesn't add anything to my understanding. It is your own commentary that I am mostly interested in. Also I would very much like to hear from Suan and Htoo on this thread. Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people asking questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage of it. 31023 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 6, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello Jeff, Jack, and all, Jeff asks: "What is the big deal about Right Understanding?" Well .... Right understanding is also known as Right View. "Right view is the forerunner of the entire path, the guide for all the other factors. It enables us to understand our starting point, our destination, and the successive landmarks to pass as practice advances. To attempt to engage in the practice without a foundation of right view is to risk getting lost in the futility of undirected movement. Doing so might be compared to wanting to drive someplace without consulting a roadmap or listening to the suggestions of an experienced driver. One might get into the car and start to drive, but rather than approaching closer to one's destination, one is more likely to move farther away from it. To arrive at the desired place one has to have some idea of its general direction and of the roads leading to it. Analogous considerations apply to the practice of the path, which takes place in a framework of understanding established by right view." http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp2.php "the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path (pubbangama), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors." http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > Hello Jack, I thought your points were excellently expressed. What is the > big deal about "right understanding?" It seems that it is a way for insight > practitioners to find some line to draw between their tidy little patch of dry > farming and the moist rain forest of jhana. It reminds me of the two yards that > are almost adjoining. One neighbor is armed with chemical defoliants to kill > all signs of life as they creep over from the guy next door who is rain > harvesting and mulching his organic garden. > > Many kind regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31024 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:22am Subject: Re: Khun Sujin [Re: [dsg]gold medal and mud. Dear Nina - In a message dated 3/6/2004 2:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > I am really glad with the however section, but the first part really hurts. > So, the worldly conditions again: one day a gold medal, the next day, just > mud!!! Pure mud and a good load of it. ------------------------------- Howard: First of all, Nina, my post was not meant to hurt, but rather the opposite. Secondly, it doesn't make sense to be hurt by someone's having an opinion, I believe. Also, I do not think that the first part of my post was "pure mud". What I had to say in the two parts together expressed a full picture of my current viewpoint, and I was speaking honestly, neither hiding my reservations nor exaggerating my admiration. To have stated one part only would have been a lie of omission. ---------------------------------- > Can you point out her being idiosyncratic, and then as to the followers (I > dislike this word), being doctrinnaire and not flexible??? ------------------------------------ Howard: The word 'idiosyncratic' is not pejorative. It isn't a "put down". It means nothing more than "unusual, not mainstream, and not the norm". I believe that it is true. Khun Sujin's interpretation of the Dhamma is certainly not a common one. It emphasizes the Abhidhamma over the suttas, de-emphasizes formal meditation, makes study of the Dhamma the lion's share of what constitutes Buddhist practice, and it seems to imply the impotence of volitional actions in Buddhist practice. All that is not the norm, and thus it is idiosyncratic. This does not make her interpretation bad or wrong - just idiosyncratic. As far as some of Khun Sujin's followers being doctrinnaire or inflexible, I did *not* have you in mind when I said this. But there are a few folks here who are so devoted to her as to be unwilling to consider other perspectives and to even go to contortions to defend a position rather than hold beliefs loosely. This has been my experience. But I see this in just a few folks here, and I see considerable flexibility in Khun Sujin, herself, and in you, who are such an important expositior of her teachings. --------------------------------- The however part > does not mean much, because you say: she is idiosyncratic, but inspite of it > very kind. --------------------------------- Howard: Nina, there is nothing wrong with being idiosyncratic. The Buddha was idiosyncratic, and his teachings went against the stream! In a way, being idiosyncratic could be worn as a badge of honor. Nina, I wrote my post because I was touched by Khun Sujin's kindness as related in the recent letter. Yes,I do think she is very kind, and being idiosyncratic in one's position on any subject has no bearing on that. Having seen your response to my post, I regret having written it - I am most sorry that it upset you. --------------------------------- > Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard > op 05-03-2004 20:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > As you know, I'm not an Abhidhammika, nor am I a devotee of Khun Sujin. I even > > think that her approach to the Dhamma is somewhat idiosyncratic, though > > perhaps actually less doctrinnaire and more flexible than that of some of her > > followers. ;-). > > But now, the "however" section of my post: However, I do enjoy and benefit > > from much of what she has written, and moreover, from the anecdotes I have > > read of her, I think it likely that that she is a very kind human being, and > > very much devoted to the Dhamma. Also, I suspect that she, herself, has > > probably developed quite a significant practice of ongoing mindfulness and > > guarding the senses, because I detect a sense of direct > experience in her > > writing, and not just intellectual contemplation. 31025 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Nina, Nina: Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. James: Really? You think so? I don't think so. Did the Buddha teach this? I find that I have a special place in my heart for kids. Kids are different: tender, vulnerable, open…I believe that kids are even more naturally spiritual than adults. I am reminded of this section from William Wordsworth's "Ode: Intimations of Immortality Recollections of Early Childhood": "Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar: Not in entire forgetfulness, And not in utter nakedness, But trailing clouds of glory do we come From God, who is our home: Heaven lies about us in our infancy! Shades of the prison-house begin to close Upon the growing Boy, But He beholds the light, and whence it flows, He sees it in his joy; The Youth, who daily farther from the east Must travel, still is Nature's Priest, And by the vision splendid Is on his way attended; At length the Man perceives it die away, And fade into the light of common day. –" Well, Nina, the rest of these questions are kind of personal, and I am not sure if I should answer them, but since inquiring minds want to know! ;-)): Nina: Your father must miss you, therefore he likes you to write daily, and are you the only child left after the family tragedy? James: Yes, I am the only child left. My brother and sister died. Nina: you could make your letters like a diary. James: That is an idea, I will consider it. I chat with my dad online quite often also. Both of my parents are very attached to me. Though I understand why, sometimes I need some breathing space. ;-) Nina: How did your parents get over it? James: They didn't get over it. It is still very painful for them. Nina: I am glad you explained about the use of language in your family. I find it admirable that you became a teacher in English language, and writing in such a good style; how did you manage it all? James: I don't know; I was just attracted to reading and scholarly pursuits naturally. My parents didn't hinder my interest but they weren't the cause and they didn't encourage it either. They just didn't worry about my grades or outside interests. My siblings were not the same as me. They were not oriented toward bookish subjects. There are times when my parent's really don't know where I got it all from. I don't either. Maybe I am an alien's baby?? ;-)) Nina: And you published books? James: No, I haven't published any books (not yet). I have had short stories, articles, and poetry published in literary magazines. I had a speech about patriotism published in the Congressional Record. And as far as Buddhism, the chief editor of the Buddhist Publication Society (BPS) informed me that he is going to be publishing some of my writings on Buddhism in upcoming newsletters. Nina: Did you take the shrine with your sister's ashes to Cairo? James: No, I left the shrine at my parent's house. The shrine now has my sister's and both of my grandmother's ashes. My parents have informed me that when they die they want to be placed with the shrine also. So the Buddha statue will be there with my family. And you are right, when I die I will be but a memory and, since I won't have children (unless I adopt someday) I don't know where the ashes will end up. Metta, James 31026 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Howard, op 06-03-2004 20:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: The heart of the Dhamma is to be found > in the direct experience and understanding of what is real. N:Thank you for your sympathetic and encouraging words. I apologize, I am sorry about the mud part, I was overdoing this. After I had sent it I felt sorry. I did not pass the test! I lost my patience. But, never too late to learn from such moments. Lodewijk helped me to see also your side, I understand this better. But no need to mention it now. Let us just concentrate on texts and study Dhamma. The Bodhisatta was glad when there were contrarieties so that he could develop the perfection of patience. We have opportunities on this list. Christine's quote is also in Kh. Sujin's Metta Book. And Sarah quoted one of my favorite texts about the monk hearing contrarious speech. I connected this with Rahula who had to be like the four Great Elements. I had before on Vesak day conversations with Lodewijk about passing the tests, and these often come to my mind. I shall quote a little again from what I posted here before: end quote. This post is good for me to remind myself of realities. Nina. 31027 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] too much Hi Larry, op 07-03-2004 02:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Whatever we do we don't want to wear you out. In fact I can do without a > translation of the entire commentary. Much of it doesn't add anything to > my understanding. It is your own commentary that I am mostly interested > in. N: Thanks for your thoughtfulness. As to Pali, I do this usually when too tired for other things, it works soothingly. As to Tiika: I follow the Vis. text in Pali and then the Tiika to it is quite something else. This explains each word. When you see it only in English much is lost and it is quite a different thing. By the Pali I can go into the deep meaning of the words, and I constantly return to the Vis. text, find it helpful comparing the Pali words. I also use other commentaries and at times these are almost the same as the Tiika. I could just quote from them. As for me, I can find a middle way: reading it and only adding some parts that I think necessary. We had some cases that the transl was not clear and I had to go to the Pali. Let's ask the mods also. L: Also I would very much like to hear from Suan and Htoo on this > thread. Plus I'm a little disappointed we don't have more people asking > questions and voicing opinions. This thread is an historic, > ground-breaking enterprise and everyone should take full advantage of > it. N: You know, when someone asks questions he must have studied and reflected already. It is not easy to ask questions, that is the reason. So, I do appreciate yours and would not like to miss them. As we concluded before: many are silent listeners, see Ken O, and there are others, I know about them. Sarah mentioned this before. I do not feel disappointed, on the contrary. L: If there is a serious ambition to translate the whole commentary perhaps > you could enlist some help from the Pali list or the Foundation. N: No ambition here!!! I cannot expect any help: people are too busy also on the Pali list, and most are not concentrated on commentaries which present particular difficulties in translating. I help is offered I am only too glad. I shall now post a quote from my Rupas on space, the rupa that delimitates, which is next. But, the weekend is so busy with many posts, I may wait until Monday, what do you think? We can avoid weekends, I am just thinking of the readers. Nina. 31028 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi Sarah, Sarah: Howard's and James's picking up anything which sounds `doctrinnaire' to them (still not sure what it means though;-)) James: doc•tri•naire (d k tr -nâr ) n. A person inflexibly attached to a practice or theory without regard to its practicality. (i.e. no control, people don't exist, meditation is atta-enforcing, etc. ;-)) Metta, James 31029 From: christhedis Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 2:42am Subject: Anyone in Bangkok? Hi there everyone, Wondering if anyone is currently living or visiting here in Bangkok, or if there are any groups for meditation, discussion, or whatever. I'm in Bangkok and interested to meet fellow Dhamma friends, so if anyone knows anything, please let me know. Thanks.. Chris. 31030 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: doc•tri•naire (d k tr -nâr ) n. A person inflexibly attached > to a practice or theory without regard to its practicality. .... S: Oh, I don't think I'd like to catch that bug...That's what I'd thought, but then I couldn't believe there'd be any suggestion anyone here would catch that one, LOL. .... J: > (i.e. no control, people don't exist, meditation is atta-enforcing, > etc. ;-)) ... S: Oh, that's OK, it sounds like a synonym for enlightenment. Very practical. I'll just take it as a big compliment from now on ;-)) Witb doctrinaire (i.e no control, people don't exist) Metta, Sarah ======== 31031 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anyone in Bangkok? Hi Chris, --- christhedis wrote: > Hi there everyone, > > Wondering if anyone is currently living or visiting here in Bangkok, or > if > there are any groups for meditation, discussion, or whatever. I'm in > Bangkok and interested to meet fellow Dhamma friends, so if anyone > knows anything, please let me know. .... Sukin & Betty from the list live in Bangkok and I'm sure one of them will contact you and arrange to meet/take you to a discussion. If not, let me know off-list and I'll give you an email add. Shakti will be there later this month (see dates in her recent post). Azita will be there in April (ditto for dates) and a few others of us are still considering whether it's possible to meet them there just after Easter(depending on work, costs etc for us). Metta, Sarah ======= 31032 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hello Nina, and all. Nina: > Dear Philip, > don't worry, I had to laugh about what you write. > I won't be packing in! Although sometimes the work is so overwhelming, there > are so many posts and I have to write now about Thailand. I was tempted to > contemplate a sabbatical, like Robert :-)) But I do not want to let Sarah, > Jon, and Larry with his Vis. thread down. Ph: I'm sure we're all relieved to hear that, Nina, just as we're aware you may indeed decide to take that sabbatical. After all, this is an open forum and who knows what will happen. I for one will do what I can to lighten your load by keeping my promise to not respond to your comments, unless I have reflected on them for several days and still feel the need to respond or ask further questions. And when I ask questions about ADL, I will ask that other members help me since they will be beginner's questions that everyone (almost) will be able to answer. And I vow to guard the gates of your palace of wisdom and protect your sacred throne from that hound of hades Jacques de la Mitchell! (Just Joking!!) You have contributed so, so much to the understanding of Abhidhamma that there is no way on earth you could let anyone down by deciding to take a sabbatical. Metta, Philip 31033 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:36am Subject: Re: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 Hello Christine, and all. Ch: > Here the Buddha speaks of our angry reactions to the words of others > as being a fetter. Every morning I read a chapter of the Dhammapada and write down a verse to take with me through the day. I come back to it on occasion through the day to take my mind off chocolate and other forms of carnal sin. Today I wrote down this, from ch. xxvi, 399. "He endures-- unangered--insult, assaul and imprisonment. His arm is strength, his strength forbearance: He's what I call a brahman." I think if I had read that a few weeks ago, it would have stirred me to make a resolution not to behave badly ever again, and never to speak another wild word. This morning, in the light of the Abdhidhamma, I saw "forbearance" as the equanimity that comes from right understanding. When we understand there is, in fact, no other person, there is no one to get angry at. Some think the "no person" line is too cold, or dehumanizing, but I find it very liberating. Rather than making resolutions to myself and promises to you not to behave badly again, I simply turn myself again to deepening my understanding of Abdhidhamma, which is right understanding and the freedom from all the frantic, craving-fed things we do to protect our cherished-self image. Wise restraint will arise naturally in the future, I'm sure. Saddha. Thanks for the sutta, Christine. I'm going to print it out and reflect on it. Metta, Philip 31034 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: >> And I vow to guard the gates of your palace of wisdom and protect > your sacred throne from that hound of hades Jacques de la Mitchell! > (Just Joking!!) What would the Hound of Hell have to fear from a brown-nosed puppy?? Hehehe (just kidding). Metta, James 31035 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anyone in Bangkok? Hi Chris, Azita, Shakti, Christine, KenO, Htoo, Sukin, Betty & All, Good News we hope! We just spoke to K.Sujin who encouraged us and everyone else to visit. We're now hoping to arrange a trip (with some saved up miles;-)) to coincide with Azita and Shakti, 14th-18th April. K.Sujin will try to keep free the days of 15th, 16th and 17th Apr for discussions with us. She was very happy to hear that several of you may be revisiting too. If anyone needs any other info, pls contact Sukin, Betty, me or anyone else off-list if we can help. Anyone's welcome. Metta, Sarah p.s We haven't made any bookings, but will look into all that in the next few days. ======= 31036 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 6:59am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 06 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma practitioner meditator has been in sitting meditation experiencing dhamma in many different ways. As he has been well calm, he feels peace and he is full of joy. He is free from any worry as he is experiencing dhamma as they really are. He recognizes his present state. That is he is feeling well and he is full of joy and satisfaction. This is somanassa vedana or feeling well in mind or feeling of satisfaction. He knows that somanassa arises as it arises. He also knows that that feeling persists and he cognizes it persisting through out the process of mind and he also notices when it has fallen away. That somanassa or feeling of satisfaction is not him and it is not of his. It is anatta. He knows dhamma as they really are. As he has been sitting for a long time, he is in a particular position for a long time and he starts to feel some forms of discomfort in his body. It is a back pain. Not that bad but still he feels unpleasant feeling. He notices that there arises unpleasant feeling. He also knows that the feeling persists and he knows when that unpleasant feeling passes away. That unpleasant is not him and not his. There is no trace of him there in the whole process. All are anatta. And he sees dhamma as they really are. While he is sitting, the ambient temperature is just fair and he feels pleasant feeling when some breeze meets him. He knows that sukha arises and he also knows its persistence and when it passes away he cognizes its disappearenace. That bodily pleasant feeling is not him or his and there is no trace of him in the whole process. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they realy are. At a time his concentration is not that good and he is distracted. he knows that he is distracted and he feels that he is not good and concentration is still not right and he feels unsatisfied regarding his present condition and status. At that time he recognizes that there arises unpleasant mental feeling or domanassa arises. While it is persisting he knows that it is persisting. When it vanishes he notices that domanassa falls away. This domanassa is not of him or his. There is no trace of him and all are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. He just goes into jhana or absorption. At first he feels joy but as he ascends up to higher jhanas, some parts of jhana or jhananga do not arise and at last he menages to stay in jhana as calm as a mountain and he is in 4th jhana that is there is just ekaggata or one-pointedness and upekkha vedana or feeling which is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. He knows that neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling arises and while it is persisting he cognizes its persistence and when falls away he notices that feeling falls away. That feeling is not him or not of his and there is no trace of him or self. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. He cognizes that these are just feeling and these feeling are not him or his and there is no self in the whole process that have been happening. These feeling are just aggregates. They are feeling aggregates. They are called vedanakkhandha. If not mindful and there is no wisdom these matters will construct something to illude him. These feelings are actually the source of arising of consciousness and its accompaniments. They are called feeling clinging aggregates or vedanupadanakkhandha. This khandha is not of him or his. There is no trace of self or atta in these feeling. All feeling are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31037 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 Hi Philip, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip" To: Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 3:36 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: angry reactions - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.9 > I think if I had read that a few weeks ago, it would have stirred > me to make a resolution not to behave badly ever again, and never to > speak another wild word. This morning, in the light of the > Abdhidhamma, I saw "forbearance" as the equanimity that comes from > right understanding. When we understand there is, in fact, no other > person, there is no one to get angry at. Some think the "no person" > line is too cold, or dehumanizing, but I find it very liberating. I couldn't agree more. This to me is Dhamma on a conceptual level, about as profound as conceptualizing can get (because it touches on anatta). When the Buddha described Dhamma as 'beautiful in the beginning' I think this is what he meant--even on just a conceptual level, so liberating. > Rather than making resolutions to myself and promises to you not to > behave badly again, I simply turn myself again to deepening my > understanding of Abdhidhamma, which is right understanding and the > freedom from all the frantic, craving-fed things we do to protect our > cherished-self image. I agree again, of course. A moment of resolution is just a moment, with its own causes and conditions, same as a moment of bad behaviour. So resolutions do nothing to eradicate accumulated, underlying tendencies and, in the absence of insight, are always doomed to failure. Understanding of abhidhamma IS understanding of Dhamma, and vice-versa in my opinion. On those rare occasions when understanding penetrates the realities of the present moment (rather than mere concepts, no matter how true), underlying tendencies begin to be eradicated--systemically, so to speak, rather than by a kind of topical application of resolution. > Wise restraint will arise naturally in the > future, I'm sure. I hope so (for all of us). Of course, lots of other, less wholesome, moments will too-- inevitably until the anusayas are eradicated by insight. mike 31038 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/7/2004 3:58:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > op 06-03-2004 20:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The heart of the Dhamma is to be found > > in the direct experience and understanding of what is real. > > N:Thank you for your sympathetic and encouraging words. I apologize, I am > sorry about the mud part, I was overdoing this. After I had sent it I felt > sorry. I did not pass the test! I lost my patience. But, never too late to > learn from such moments. > Lodewijk helped me to see also your side, I understand this better. But no > need to mention it now. Let us just concentrate on texts > and study Dhamma. ============================= Thank you very much for this, Nina. You have eased my mind. I'm visiting at the moment in the Dallas area with my son's family, and using their computer. Last night I read your "mud & gold" post, and set about replying immediately, because I was upset by it. I feel badly in causing anyone pain, especially sweet people whom I particularly value. At the same time, I don't want to fake my sentiments and post untruthfully, and so I was quite unhappy with the situation. I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list if you continued in feeling hurt. Just to make matters worse, after writing a long reply - longer than what I ended up with - the computer here malfunctioned, and I had to spend literally hours - into the wee hours of the morning - to salvage what I had done, get the computer back on its feet, and send off my abrreviated post. So you may understand how happy I am to receive this current post of yours! I look forward to many more fruitfull conversations with you on the Dhamma. With metta, Howard 31039 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 3/7/2004 5:47:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > James: doc•tri•naire (d k tr -nâr ) n. A person inflexibly attached > > to a practice or theory without regard to its practicality. > .... > S: Oh, I don't think I'd like to catch that bug...That's what I'd thought, > but then I couldn't believe there'd be any suggestion anyone here would > catch that one, LOL. > .... > J: > (i.e. no control, people don't exist, meditation is atta-enforcing, > > etc. ;-)) > ... > S: Oh, that's OK, it sounds like a synonym for enlightenment. Very > practical. I'll just take it as a big compliment from now > on ;-)) > > Witb doctrinaire (i.e no control, people don't exist) Metta, > > Sarah =========================== I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) With metta, Howard 31040 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:15am Subject: Re: too much --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: ...> I shall now post a quote from my Rupas on space, the rupa that delimitates, > which is next. But, the weekend is so busy with many posts, I may wait until > Monday, what do you think? We can avoid weekends, I am just thinking of the > readers. > Nina. Hi Nina, This sounds like a good idea. Start the week off with a new dhamma. It's just that we have such a long way to go I'm afraid you will wear out before we get to the end. So husband your energy and do whatever streamlining you think will work. Larry 31041 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 3/7/04 1:58:29 AM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Christine and all, If you are accepted in some Buddhist monasteries in southeast Asia, you are told to go and meditate. No or little instructions are given. If you have problems, you can get answers from the teachers there. You are told just to be mindful of what is happening. That's it. No study of doctrine, of the suttas or of distinctions found in the Abhidhamma. When I was in my Zen phase, suttas or doctrine were never mentioned. I think both these methods depend on a teacher's correction to lead one toward wisdom. My point is that the Buddha said there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment. I find your above quote to explain one way, one that I agree with, but there are a lot of other ways. Christine, I would have guessed that your above quote does not reflect your views. Jack 31042 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: Khun Sujin [Re: [dsg]gold medal and mud. Dear Howard, everything all right now, see my previous post. I understand now what you meant by idiosyncratic. I only looked at the Oxford dictionary, and of course this gives rise to misunderstandings. In Dutch it is used in a more unfavorable way. No problem anymore! Nina. op 07-03-2004 09:22 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The word 'idiosyncratic' is not pejorative. 31043 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi James, Thanks for answering my questions. They relate to Dhamma, that is why I asked them on line. op 07-03-2004 09:25 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Nina: Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. > James: Really? You think so? N: Really, really. You may be an exception, due to accumulations and upbringing. Please, please, take good care of this bunch of crybabies and labrador pups. J: I don't think so. Did the Buddha > teach this? I find that I have a special place in my heart for > kids. Kids are different: tender, vulnerable, open…I believe that > kids are even more naturally spiritual than adults. N: Lodewijk thinks that definitely adults are as sensitive as children, but opinions are different. I think, a pat on the back or a harsh word: just the same for adults or children. Adults are more afraid of what others think and will therefore try to hide their feelings. The Buddha did not teach this expressively, but he taught that we all are fleeting nama and rupa, five khandhas which are conditioned by previous accumulations, and this concerns children and adults alike. That is why there are very wise children, we can learn from them. Why James, I could be your Granny, but I still like to learn from you and other youngsters here on the list ;-)) In the Buddha's time senior monks could learn from novices who were already arahat. And think of Rahula who at a young age attained arahatship. I feel very strongly that age does not matter at all. J: My parents have > informed me that when they die they want to be placed with the shrine > also. So the Buddha statue will be there with my family. And you > are right, when I die I will be but a memory and, since I won't have > children (unless I adopt someday) I don't know where the ashes will > end up. N: This is touching. Here is a way of helping your parents. They may have some reflections on the Buddha when they see the statue and know that it means a lot to you. Not having children or adopting them, since we are here in the context of lifestories, I have my own little story which may be of help to some. When I first came to Kh Sujin (one of my first visits) and mentioned that we were sad not having children she answered: you can have all the children in the world. How deep and true. At that time I did not know much about clinging or clinging to an idea or illusion of my own child. But this was an eyeopener. To see that it is not all that important to have children or not. We may be emotionally involved wanting to have our own children, and it is difficult to know the difference between selfish love and true metta. This is always difficult in life, but it is necessary, otherwise we are just seeking ourselves. Note: I am not saying one should not have affectionate love in the sense of attachment to one's own children, but knowing the difference between this and metta is a condition for developing metta. This slowly dawned on me. I have experienced how helpful it is to learn about citta at a particular moment: is it kusala or akusala. As a good teacher you can also have all the children in the world! Thanks for sharing your life experiences, I really appreciate this, Nina. 31044 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack Hello Jack, I'd be interested in your reference to where the Blessed One said there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment - perhaps a typo? :-) I have heard of 84,000 doors but have never been given a Tipitaka source. 84,000 ways - hmmm, makes it sound so easy, almost like you'd have to be making a concerted effort NOT to get enlightened. (I also attended a Zen centre for a while, and also did some years of formal samatha-vipassana meditation.) That is sad about the lack of instruction you mention in some monasteries in S.E. Asia ... From visits, I am only slightly familiar with Thailand, Myanmar and Sri Lanka (though maybe you meant some other country). Instruction, study and support seem to be in evidence in the monasteries there. [and Betty's son is a monk in Bangkok and perhaps she may have some further knowledge]. In the Satipatthana Sutta: "Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." And to my understanding Satipatthana IS Vipassana. Vipassana (Insight) is the penetrative understanding by direct meditative experience of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and impersonality of all material and mental phenomena of existence. Correction welcome. What do you reckon, Jack? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/7/04 1:58:29 AM Central Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > Though > the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the > crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly > enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to > meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the > extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. > Christine and all, > > If you are accepted in some Buddhist monasteries in southeast Asia, you are > told to go and meditate. No or little instructions are given. If you have > problems, you can get answers from the teachers there. You are told just to be > mindful of what is happening. That's it. No study of doctrine, of the suttas or of > distinctions found in the Abhidhamma. When I was in my Zen phase, suttas or > doctrine were never mentioned. I think both these methods depend on a teacher's > correction to lead one toward wisdom. > > My point is that the Buddha said there were 94,000 ways to reach > enlightenment. I find your above quote to explain one way, one that I agree with, but > there are a lot of other ways. > > Christine, I would have guessed that your above quote does not reflect your > views. > > Jack 31045 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 1:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi Howard and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and James) - > =========================== > I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard I didn't think I had used that word but I went ahead and looked it up on dictionary.com to define it for Sarah. Goodness knows I am such a helpful sort of person! ;-)) You make a good point here, Howard-- Sarah should not be lumping the two of us together. I was thinking along those lines but I wanted to dig deeper into her comment and let things unfold naturally. We are both quite individualistic and different in how we approach the dhamma. The one thing that unites us is that we don't consider dhamma to be a game or a mental exercise… it is real life. But, people are going to do what they want and think what they want, unless they are open to different ideas. No reason to sweat it! ;-)) Metta, James Ps. BTW, I would rather drop this topic also. Hmm…have you noticed something? As much as the moderators warn against getting personal, they themselves continue to get personal?? Why is that?? ;-)) 31046 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 1:22pm Subject: Re: My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!!! Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Thanks for answering my questions. They relate to Dhamma, that is why I > asked them on line. > op 07-03-2004 09:25 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > Nina: Remember: adults are just as sensitive as kids. > > James: Really? You think so? > N: Really, really. You may be an exception, due to accumulations and > upbringing. Please, please, take good care of this bunch of crybabies and > labrador pups. We are all different. We all come into this world trailing clouds of glory and oceans of tears; which will you embrace and which will you leave behind? That is the question we all must ask ourselves. Honestly, I don't have much patience for babyish adults. Petulant, self-involved, whining weakness is a real turn-off for me. And if you read the suttas closely, the Buddha didn't have patience for that kind of nonsense either (I can quote some suttas if you want). As my dad would say, "Either sh*t or get off the pot!" LOL! Metta, James 31047 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Howard (and All) I see there being a material difference between: (a) seeking to identify and state exactly what it is the teachings say on a given point, (b) asserting as fact some aspect of the teachings that one has not experienced and verified for oneself, (c) stating one's own view of the way things are, being a position not elaborated in the texts. I see (a) as being orthodoxy, (b) as being doctrinaire, and (c) as being of little interest or use to anyone else. Of course, in pursuing any one of these courses one could be stubborn, closed minded or irrational, but that doesn't make one doctrinaire. Identifying what is or is not the orthodox position of the texts on a given subject does not mean that one accepts that position in the sense of embracing it unquestioningly. That would not be of any value. Conversely, a person who truly holds a position that is contrary to an interpretation given in the commentaries, may find it difficult even to acknowledge the commentary position as being the orthodox one. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and James) - ... =========================== I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) With metta, Howard 31048 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Sound as akusala vipaka Hello all. In chapter 1 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life we find "when we hear unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing- consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we performed ourselves. But the aversion which may arise very shortly afterwards is not vipaka, but it arises with akusala citta" I have two questions: 1) Am I too understand that even being on the passive end of a sound from a source which we have no control over is akusala vipaka? I can understand that hearing unpleasant words from someone as a result of our own unpleasant words is akusala vipaka - and I understand it clearly from recent personal experience ;) . But if I hear an angry man shout passing by on his way home from a bar in the middle of the night - not at me but at his drinking companion - is that sound a result of "an unwholesome deed I performed myself." And even if it is not a stranger, but someone we know who says unpleasant words to us when he or she can't get at the real source of his or her anger, is that the result of our own unwholesome deed? I guess all beginners have resistance at this idea. It sounds like there would be some kind of puppet master bringing people together at just the right time for khamma and vipaka to play out - and we know that isn't the case. Surely there is a huge random element - a whole lot of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahats? Thanks in advance for any answers. I made a comment the other day about only wanting answers in the light of ADL, but that was silly. I an eager to hear all points of view. Metta, Phil 31049 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka Hi Phil, Here's a couple of short answers. Maybe someone else can respond in more detail: P: "1) Am I too understand that even being on the passive end of a sound from a source which we have no control over is akusala vipaka? I can understand that hearing unpleasant words from someone as a result of our own unpleasant words is akusala vipaka - and I understand it clearly from recent personal experience ;) . But if I hear an angry man shout passing by on his way home from a bar in the middle of the night - not at me but at his drinking companion - is that sound a result of "an unwholesome deed I performed myself." And even if it is not a stranger, but someone we know who says unpleasant words to us when he or she can't get at the real source of his or her anger, is that the result of our own unwholesome deed? I guess all beginners have resistance at this idea. It sounds like there would be some kind of puppet master bringing people together at just the right time for khamma and vipaka to play out - and we know that isn't the case. Surely there is a huge random element - a whole lot of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time." L: Yes to all the above questions. The precise workings of kamma are only known by the Buddha. I think the idea is to "drive all blame into oneself" (a Tibetan slogan) and be aware of the far reaching consequences of our own volitional consciousness. P: "2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahats?" L: The sound itself is desirable or undesirable according to community standards (also called "inherently" undesirable or desirable). For example, loud noise that some regard as music may be enjoyed by these "some". Whether you like it or dislike it the resultant 5-door consciousness is termed akusala because the root consciousness (like, dislike, bewilderment) is unwholesome. The object of that resultant consciousness will be "undesirable" rupa [assuming a very simplistic mechanism of kamma]. Larry 31050 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Howard and All A quick disclaimer here. The (c) in my post below is given by way of an explanation of my own particular (some might say, austere) style of posting and is not directed at the more personal, anecdotal style of posting that many members adopt (and which I enjoy reading immensely). It takes all types (and idiosyncracies) to make a list! (Howard, my apologies if you read anything personal in my post -- certainly not intended) Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard (and All) > > I see there being a material difference between: > (a) seeking to identify and state exactly what it is the teachings > say on a given point, > (b) asserting as fact some aspect of the teachings that one has not > experienced and verified for oneself, > (c) stating one's own view of the way things are, being a position > not elaborated in the texts. > > I see (a) as being orthodoxy, (b) as being doctrinaire, and (c) as > being of little interest or use to anyone else. > > Of course, in pursuing any one of these courses one could be > stubborn, closed minded or irrational, but that doesn't make one > doctrinaire. > > Identifying what is or is not the orthodox position of the texts on > a > given subject does not mean that one accepts that position in the > sense of embracing it unquestioningly. That would not be of any > value. > > Conversely, a person who truly holds a position that is contrary to > an interpretation given in the commentaries, may find it difficult > even to acknowledge the commentary position as being the orthodox > one. > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and James) - > ... > =========================== > I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better > clarify. > I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in > mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near > automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little > questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a > teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, > himself, > in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that > sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else > all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard 31051 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Vis. Space Rúpas always arise in groups (kalapas) consisting of at least eight rúpas, the eight inseparable rúpas. There are rúpas other than these eight and these arise together in a group together with the eight inseparable rúpas. Our body consists of different groups of rúpas and each group is surrounded by infinitesimally tiny space, and this is the rúpa that is called space (akåsa) [3]. The rúpas within a group are holding tightly together and cannot be divided, and the rúpa space allows the different groups to be distinct from each other. Thus, its function is separating or delimiting the different groups of rúpas, and therefore it is also called pariccheda rúpa, the rúpa that delimits (pariccheda meaning limit or boundary). The rúpa space is a rúpa without its own distinct nature (asabhåva rúpa), and it arises simultaneously with the different groups of rúpa it surrounds. The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326) states that space is that which cannot be scratched, cut or broken. It is ³untouched by the four great Elements.² Space cannot be touched. The ³Atthasåliní² gives the following definition of space [4] : ... space-element has the characteristic of delimiting material objects, the function of showing their boundaries, the manifestation of showing their limits, state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestation, the separated objects as proximate cause. It is that of which in the separated groups we say ³this is above, this is below, this is across.² Space delimits the groups of rúpa that are produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition so that they are separated from each other. If there were no space in between the different groups of rúpa, these groups would all be connected, not distinct from each other. Space comes into being whenever the groups of rúpas are produced by any of the four factors and, thus, it is regarded as originating from these four factors. We read in the ²Discourse on the Analysis of the Elements² (Middle Length Sayings III, no 140) that the Buddha explained to the monk Pukkusåti about the elements and that he also spoke about the element of space. This Sutta refers to the empty space of holes and openings that are, as we have read, the manifestation of space. We read: ... And what, monk, is the element of space? The element of space may be internal, it may be external. And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth and that by which one swallows what is munched, drunk, eaten and tasted, and where this remains, and where it passes out (of the body) lower down, or whatever other thing is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, this, monk, is called the internal element of space. Whatever is an internal element of space and whatever is an external element of space, just these are the element of space. By means of perfect intuitive wisdom this should be seen as it really is thus: This is not mine, this am I not, this is not myself. Having seen this thus as it really is by means of perfect intuitive wisdom, he disregards the element of space, he cleanses his mind of the element of space. The Sutta speaks in conventional terms of space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body. Space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing [5]. We attach great importance to internal space and we take it for ³mine² or self, but it is only a rúpa element. Footnotes: 3. I used for the description of space Acharn Sujin¹s ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Ch 4. 4. See also Dhammasangani, § 638 and Visuddhimagga XIV, 63. 5. Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314. ****** Nina 31052 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Howard, op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list if you > continued in feeling hurt. N: O, No!!! What misery you went through during that night. I feel really sorry. My feeling hurt was only a moment, everything is only a moment. And then completely gone. You wrote this to Mike before I went to Thailand and we spoke about not giving an orthodox answer: > Please don't answer with a stock quotation, but just turn your mind to the > > question, and look with the intention of seeing. I think this is a matter of > > critical importance. I'm certainly not saying I have "the answer", though, > > somehow, > > it seems to be lurking "in the back of my mind", rather like "being on the > > tip of one's tongue". ;-). I have been thinking of it quite often, and especially thinking of applying it in life. It means not holding on to our thoughts, because they really are no more. No matter what it is, unwelcome remarks by someone else or our own stupid behaviour. Even when holding on there can be conceit, clinging to the importance of self. But it is difficult to really apply it under all circumstances so long as it is only conceptual thinking. When the arising and falling away of dhammas is directly seen it is quite a different matter. Did some thoughts occur to you about Mike's wise saying? Nina. 31053 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: too much Hi Larry, inspite of my old age I am quite sturdy ;-)) As we go along I am not thinking of the long way, just too busy keeping going. But what would be the end, the end of Ch XIV, or the end of the whole Visuddhimagga? Jim said he would help me to download the Pali when needed. After Ch XIV I do not have the Pali and have to look ahead in time. op 07-03-2004 19:15 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > It's just that we have such a long way to go I'm afraid you will wear > out before we get to the end. 31054 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi, Jon - I'm happy with your definition (b) for doctrinnaire. It's actually quite similar to what I mean by that. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/7/04 5:20:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard (and All) > > I see there being a material difference between: > (a) seeking to identify and state exactly what it is the teachings > say on a given point, > (b) asserting as fact some aspect of the teachings that one has not > experienced and verified for oneself, > (c) stating one's own view of the way things are, being a position > not elaborated in the texts. > > I see (a) as being orthodoxy, (b) as being doctrinaire, and (c) as > being of little interest or use to anyone else. > > Of course, in pursuing any one of these courses one could be > stubborn, closed minded or irrational, but that doesn't make one > doctrinaire. > > Identifying what is or is not the orthodox position of the texts on a > given subject does not mean that one accepts that position in the > sense of embracing it unquestioningly. That would not be of any > value. > > Conversely, a person who truly holds a position that is contrary to > an interpretation given in the commentaries, may find it difficult > even to acknowledge the commentary position as being the orthodox > one. > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Sarah (and James) - > ... > =========================== > I'd just as soon drop this topic, but I see I had better clarify. > I did not quite mean by 'doctrinnaire' what James wrote. I had in > mind the accepting of a position as fact based on automatic or near > automatic acceptance of authoritative doctrine, with little > questioning. This, of course, doesn't apply to the formulator of a > teaching, but can apply to some adherents to it. The Buddha, himself, > in the Kalama Sutta, cautioned against being doctrinnaire in that > sense. (And to be doctrinnaire is, of course, no great crime - else > all of us would more or less be criminals! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31055 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi Howard & Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, > op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list > if you > > continued in feeling hurt. > N: O, No!!! .... ;-) I agree, let's not have any more talk about resignations or sabbaticals....pleeeeaaase! I think we're all a little sensitive at the moment. If we don’t have these experiences of feeling hurt and so on, the cittas and varied mental states won’t be known. I’m also not keen on ‘devotee’, ‘follower’, ‘idiosyncratic’, ‘doctrinaire’, but they were given with smiles and not meant unkindly I'm sure, so I just smiled when I read them after momentariy thinking ‘what me? poor me!';-). I can quite appreciate that what we say or what K.Sujin says sounds idiosyncratic to others with different interpretations of the teachings and have no problem with this at all. Actually K.Sujin wouldn’t mind what adjective is used. She’d just say to Howard as she says to us, to read and carefully consider the texts, especially the Abhidhamma, for ourselves so that we don't have to rely on anyone's interpretation. Metta, Sarah ====== 31056 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/8/04 12:14:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list if > you > >continued in feeling hurt. > N: O, No!!! What misery you went through during that night. I feel really > sorry. My feeling hurt was only a moment, everything is only a moment. And > then completely gone. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Nina. Yes, I *was* suffering. I can't easily let go of upset at causing hurt ot someone, even when having done so unintentionally. --------------------------------------------------- > You wrote this to Mike before I went to Thailand and we spoke about not > giving an orthodox answer: > >>Please don't answer with a stock quotation, but just turn your mind to > the > >>question, and look with the intention of seeing. I think this is a > matter of > >>critical importance. I'm certainly not saying I have "the answer", > though, > >>somehow, > >>it seems to be lurking "in the back of my mind", rather like "being on > the > >>tip of one's tongue". ;-). > I have been thinking of it quite often, and especially thinking of applying > it in life. It means not holding on to our thoughts, because they really are > no more. No matter what it is, unwelcome remarks by someone else or our own > stupid behaviour. Even when holding on there can be conceit, clinging to the > importance of self. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. I'm sure that's always a factor. ------------------------------------------------- But it is difficult to really apply it under all> > circumstances so long as it is only conceptual thinking. When the arising > and falling away of dhammas is directly seen it is quite a different matter. > Did some thoughts occur to you about Mike's wise saying? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Honestly - there was little thinking about the fact that the upset comes and goes, because I knew that it would arise and re-arise until I set things straight. Setting things straight was something I felt *compelled* to do, and there would be no peace in me until then. Is that bad? Well, yes and no. Like all clinging it is painful. But it is better than not caring. It is what it is. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31057 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, endurance & healthy debate;-) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/8/04 12:48:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard and All > > A quick disclaimer here. > > The (c) in my post below is given by way of an explanation of my own > particular (some might say, austere) style of posting and is not > directed at the more personal, anecdotal style of posting that many > members adopt (and which I enjoy reading immensely). > > It takes all types (and idiosyncracies) to make a list! > > (Howard, my apologies if you read anything personal in my post -- > certainly not intended) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for writing again, Jon. For a brief moment I did read what you wrote as personal, but then I looked more carefully and decided that this was likely not the case. It is kind of you to clarify this. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31058 From: Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/8/04 12:50:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard &Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: >Dear Howard, > >op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > >>I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list > >if you > >>continued in feeling hurt. > >N: O, No!!! > .... > ;-) I agree, let's not have any more talk about resignations or > sabbaticals....pleeeeaaase! I think we're all a little sensitive at the > moment. > > If we don’t have these experiences of feeling hurt and so on, the cittas > and varied mental states won’t be known. I’m also not keen on ‘devotee’, > ‘follower’, ‘idiosyncratic’, ‘doctrinaire’, but they were given with > smiles and not meant unkindly I'm sure, so I just smiled when I read them > after momentariy thinking ‘what me? poor me!';-). > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, there are some differences with these terms.To be a devotee or follower of someone worth being devoted to and following is admirable. There is nothing wrong in beng a devotee or follower per se. I consider myself a devotee and follower of the Buddha, for example, and, if I bragged, I would brag about it! ;-) Being a doctrinaire devotee or follower, however, is less worthwhile. Now, having an idiosyncratic interpretation of a teaching is a neutral matter. It is excellent if the interpretation is correct, and less so if not. --------------------------------------------------- I can quite appreciate> > that what we say or what K.Sujin says sounds idiosyncratic to others with > different interpretations of the teachings and have no problem with this > at all. > > Actually K.Sujin wouldn’t mind what adjective is used. She’d just say to > Howard as she says to us, to read and carefully consider the texts, > especially the Abhidhamma, for ourselves so that we don't have to rely on > anyone's interpretation. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed. That's exactly what I would expect her to say. As I've said before, from what I have seen reported of her, I certainly find Khun Sujin to be an exceptional person. She strikes me as kind, easy going, confident, and not easily flustered. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31059 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] White & Red Lotus Recluse Sutta Hi Swee boon, I don’t think anyone got back to you on this so I’ve just been checking around. .... --- nidive wrote: > Hi Group, > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas06.htm > > How, monks, is a person a white lotus recluse (samanapundaríka)? <....> > And how, monks, is a person a red lotus recluse (samanapaduma)? <...> > Is there an online version of this "Putta Sutta"? [A.ii,87] ... I found two on-line translations here: > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html I’ll give the second one as it has some useful commentary notes and I’m not sure the link is complete. Note the third type (the white lotus recluse) refers to the sukkha-vipassika arahant without jhanas. ***** (7) kinds of Recluses (a) Brethren, there are these four persons to be found existing in the world. What four ? The steadfast recluse,* the white lotus-like* recluse, the blue lotus-like* recluse and the exquisite* among all recluses. 1 Oõata-nica, làmaka. Comy. 2 Samanam-acalo, 'unshaken recluse,' refers to the seven classes of sekhà. He is said to be , steadfast,' as he is firmly established in the faith. 3 Pundarika is the lotus flower consisting of less than one hundred petals and here:applies to sukkha- vipassaka-Arahant. He is called samana-pundarika as he lacks jhàna and abhiïïa and is imperfect in virtues. Pundarika = white lotus. 4 Paduma is the lotus flower consisting of over a hundred petals and here applies to the intoxicant-freed Arahant, who has perfected jhàns and abiïïas. He is thus called samana-paduma, blue lotus. 5 Samana-sukhumàlo. Among all these recluses this Samana is absolutely freed in mind and hence freed from all ills, bodily or mental and refers to Himself and those like unto Himself only, i.e., all Tathàgatas-Comy. ix § 87] On Steadfast Persons 117 Brethren, who is the person called the steadfast recluse ? Brethren, a brother is under training and discipline and dwells aspiring to attain the supreme emancipation from the, bonds. Just as, brethren, the eldest son of a royal anointed king, though not yet himself anointed, is quite certain of the crown. Likewise, brethren, is a brother who is under training and discipline aspiring to attain the supreme emancipation from the bonds . he indeed, brethren, is the steadfast recluse. Brethren, who is the person called the white lotus-like recluse ? Brethren, herein a brother, having destroyed the intoxicants, is without the intoxicants, is emancipated in mind and emancipated through insight, and in this life, having achieved supernormal knowledge, he himself dwells in the attainment thereof, but without applying his mind to the acquisition of the eight ecstatic conditions. Indeed, brethren, this is the person called the white lotus-like recluse. Brethren, who, is the person called the blue lotus-like recluse ?Brethren, herein a brother having destroyed the intoxicants and go forth, himself lives in the attainment thereof, and also dwells with his mind applied to the acquisition of the eight ecstatic meditations. This indeed, brethren, is the person called the blue lotus-like recluse., Brethren, who is the person called the exquisite among all reclucs ? Brethren, herein a brother being oft invited (to almsgiving) enjoys many robes, and few if uninvited. Being oft invited he enjoys much alms-food and but little if uninvited. Being Oft invited he enjoys bed and lodging, and few if uninvited. Being oft invited he enjoys a good store of 1 Samana-paduma-samatha yànika Arahant. 118 The Numerical Sayings [TEXT ii, 88. medical requisites and supports for the sick and the feeble, and but little if uninvited. If he dwell in the company of some holy ones, many of their deeds of body please him, but only a few do not please. They do many actions by word and thought that please him, but only a few that do not please. They make many presents of offerings which are pleasing and only a few that are not pleasing. Whatsoever feelings there be, whether arising from bile, phlegm, wind or a combination of these, or due to change of season, being attacked by adversities, due to another's agency, or as a result of Kamma, these do not arise unto him in plenty, and he is free from illness. He has gained the four pleasure-giving ecstasies easily and without difficulty, and having destroyed the intoxicants is without the intoxicants, emancipated in heart and emancipated in intellect, and himself in this very life, having realised the supreme faculties, dwells in the attainment thereof. Of a truth, brethren, this one among (all) recluses is the absolutely happy recluse. Verily, brethren, if one should rightly describe it, among recluses it is Myself whom he would call the absolutely happy recluse. Brethren, if one should rightly describe it, among recluses he would call Myself the exquisite recluse, inasmuch as I use many robes being oft invited . . . [repeat the same as above set forth]. These four persons to be found existing in the world. ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 31060 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Hi Htoo & Swee Boon (& Jeff), --- nidive wrote: Htoo: > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. > SB:> Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. ..... S: I forget what was said originally, but we should keep in mind that passaddhi cetasika (actually 2 cetasikas referring to calm of cittas and calm of cetasikas) arises with *all* wholesome cittas. When samatha is developed and jhana is experienced, there is a high degree of passaddhi cetasika (calm) - no restlessness, agitation or attachment at those moments. Therefore it’s very important to understand the clear distinction between calm (passaddhi) and relaxation or attachment such as when we’re in a quiet spot or having pleasant feelings. Htoo, let me know if I misunderstood your original comment. As you say, too, calm is a factor of enlightenment, but again it has to develop with right understanding from the beginning and its characteristic has to be clearly distinguished from its near enemies (if I can use the phrase here). Also, I agree that concentration should not be confused with vitakka. However, as there is ekaggata cetasika (concentration) with every citta, and vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) with all cittas except the sense experiencing cittas of seeing, hearing etc (i.e the dvi pancavinnana cittas), I think it’s extremely difficult to determine the distinctions and not productive to try to do so, otherwise there’s bound to be more attachment;-). I mention this because the example you gave about touching air at the nostril being associated just with vitakka is a little misleading I think. Comments and references welcome! (How’s that, Jeff?;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31061 From: Eznir Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 11:05pm Subject: The Puthujjana The Puthujjana To give an illustration of `self': This `self' is like a parasite, riding piggy-back(clinging), on one's 5-aggregates, hence 5-clinging-aggregates. It is said to be shaken off only when one becomes an Arahant. Till then one carries it along. A Trainee(sekha) directs actions in such a way that this parasite loses its grip, gradually and progressively, in 4 stages. A puthujjana doesn't see this; so when ever the parasite pulls the strings the puthujjana dances to the tune! If not for this parasite, the 5-clinging-aggregates will persist and break up like the Arahant's. But because of this parasite new kamma is performed that keeps the aggregates ticking along in sansara! The affairs of a puthujjana, as in the case of a sekha or arahant, is merely a matter of mental states at the moment of experience. That is to say; Feeling feels, Perception perceives, Intention intends, Attention engager of experience, Contact the meeting place, Craving craves, Attachment attaches, Hatred the hater, Ignorance the fool just as Wisdom knows etc. etc. And the presence of all these mental states, whether wholesome or unwholesome, is the consciousness of the moment. There is no doer or conductor of experience in person, even in a puthujjana, only mental states. Hence the famous saying of Lord Buddha that "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but by non-hatred (Loving-kindness)!" Why? "When there is this, this is!" When there is hatred, hatred is and nothing else, just more hatred. And so it is for the other unwholesome states. When these unwholesome states complement each other, one comes out in anger!(note the thinking & pondering that breaks out into speech) A puthujjana, to whom `an eye for an eye', or `a tooth for a tooth' seems justified, would not make sense of this saying! He'd think that its cowardice on his part. But is it? Read the advice given by Lord Buddha to Ven. Punnovada in `Punnovada Sutta MN-145. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/145-punnovada-e.htm The fire of hatred, then, is doused only by the kindness of Love. This implies that the panacea for the illnesses of the mind is opposite in kind. See Sallekha Sutta(MN 8) http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/008-salleka-sutta-e1.htm All what Lord Buddha said makes sense only when the `parasite' riding piggy-back is understood. And how is it understood? 'When, in the seen there shall be just the seen; in the heard there shall be just the heard; in the sensed there shall be just the sensed; in the cognized there shall be just the cognized'. Metta eznir 31062 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Hi Htoo, S:Back to our journey after rather a long break and too many distractions on my part. --- htootintnaing wrote: > >Htoo: Paramattha is through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. > .... > S: ??? Please explain. > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: When you start to understand paramattha dhamma that > understanding run on words of pannatta. We are using pannatta. First > we use 'Sadda Pannatta' or its equivalent but this again is > understood through 'Attha Pannatta '. So paramattha is through > pannatta. So does Anatta even though it is origionally Anatta when we > are born we were introduced with Atta. ' Hey smile, this is your Mom, > this is your Dad. ' Then Atta encroached and firmly ramified since > then. With wisdom the origional Anatta has been back. So I said > Anatta is through Atta. But actually there is no Atta. All are > Anatta. I hope you got it. .... S:Got it! Though I’d say there is wrong view of atta from the outset (unless we’re sotapannas, but highly unlikely in the human realm). It doesn’t depend on words we’re taught like Mom and Dad. Ignorance is the reason for rebirth at all. So, I wouldn’s say anatta then atta then anatta. I’d say there is wrong view of atta over countless aeons and world cycles unless any understanding of the truth of anatta (the real state of dhammas) is developed. ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate > Sotapatti Magga Citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Maybe better to say the wrong view of atta is only eradicated at this stage. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you want theoretical knowledge of Anatta and you want to > throw away Atta. OK, I agree as there is no Atta, then it is not a > problem. Let's bring Anatta view before we begin the journey. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S:Good. Almost ready to start;-) One point to clarify below. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Are you ready with all equipment? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Ready. Let me just ask for another clarification. In your new series (04) there’s plenty of good stress on anatta and understanding different dhammas as they arise. This being the case, why do you write ‘he has been in sitting meditation for a long time’? Why not, ‘he’s been shopping, going on a hike, cooking, talking to his boss in the office for a long time’?? Doesn’t it suggest there’s still an attempt to follow and control the paramattha dhammas, rather than understanding them as they arise, however his life unfolds? Now we’re agreed on all the equipment and ready to start the journey, I’m concerned about any unnecessary limitations along the route;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Would you also explain further about what you meant by 'graduate, postgraduate etc to Jeff with regard to the suttas?' I think I misunderstood your comment. ===== 31063 From: Eznir Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 11:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Sarah, Please read my on-line comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard & Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, > > op 07-03-2004 18:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > > > I even seriously considered the possibility of resigning from the list > > if you > > > continued in feeling hurt. > > N: O, No!!! > .... > ;-) I agree, let's not have any more talk about resignations or > sabbaticals....pleeeeaaase! I think we're all a little sensitive at the > moment. > > If we don't have these experiences of feeling hurt and so on, the cittas > and varied mental states won't be known. eznir: I consider every person I meet a dhamma teacher to me. Specially those who provoke the negative kinds of feelings you state above. They seem to say "Look, I've aroused these states of anger in you! You have not taken what is heard as only the heard". The same can be said about positive feelings too. ******** >I'm also not keen on `devotee', > `follower', `idiosyncratic', `doctrinaire', but they were given with > smiles and not meant unkindly I'm sure, so I just smiled when I read them eznir: These words are merely concepts. What 'idiosyncratic' means to one person, means something different to another. This is because of difference in perception of the individual. This must be so. K. Sujins answer to refer the text(Teachings) is the answer. One can go further and test the meaning(of whatever) in oneself. *********** > after momentariy thinking `what me? poor me!';-). I can quite appreciate > that what we say or what K.Sujin says sounds idiosyncratic to others with > different interpretations of the teachings and have no problem with this > at all. > > Actually K.Sujin wouldn't mind what adjective is used. She'd just say to > Howard as she says to us, to read and carefully consider the texts, > especially the Abhidhamma, for ourselves so that we don't have to rely on > anyone's interpretation. eznir: Precisely, how things must be taught and understood. "Neither extolling, nor disparaging, one must teach the Dhamma". ******** > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > Metta eznir 31064 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stream Entry Hi Htoo, I’m making it a real Htoo posting day;-) A few comments or queeries on your post to Christine if I may : --- htootintnaing wrote: <....> > Next arises sotapatti magga citta seeing nibbana with great bliss > piti joy. At that particular moment is called sotapatti maggatthana > puggala. ..... S:Is this always true? For example, see Atthasalini 11, part V111 and Visuddhimagga.XX1 Piti does not arise in 4th and 5th stage of jhana, so surely lokuttara cittas arising with these factors are not accompanied by piti (joy) and sukha (bliss). Also for the sukkhavipassika without jhana: VismXX1,112: “..For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy and it can be *accompanied by equanimity*, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations *at the time of emergence* it is accompanied by joy. .... <....> H:> As it ( sotapatti magga citta ) > exists just for a moment, it arising may or may not be recognized. .... S: This is quite contrary to what I understand. No doubt at all. Do you have any reference for this statement? .... H: > Most will contemplate on sotapatti magga citta, sotapatti phala > citta, seen nibbana, eradicated samyojana, remaining samyojana and so > on. Some do not contemplate. .... S: Is this right? Vism XX11,19 “.....Seven impulsions of path reviewing arise. After re-entry into the life-continuum, adverting etc arise again in the same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he reviews the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements remaining, and he reviews nibbana.... .......So the noble disciple who is a stream-enterer has five kinds of reviewing.” No mention of exceptions here, but I’m happy to be corrected. .... H:> So the answer will be '' A person may or may not know with certainty > if she/ he has entered the Stream. '' > > Counterquestion will be ' Do sotapanna know that they are sotapanna? ' > > The answer will be 'They may or may not know that they are sotapanna.' .... S: I definitely need to see some reference for this;-) ... H:> Another counterquestion will be ' Can sotapanna know that they are > sotapanna? ' > > The answer is ' Yes. They can. In which way? They can practise > sotapatti phala samapatti.' If phala samapatti is not possible then > the person is still puthujana. > > Phala samapatti continuously ( not continually ) and uninterruptedly > see nibbana which is a complete blissful state. .... S:Are you sure that all ariyans can enter phala samapatti? Again this is different from my understanding. I believe (but haven’t checked up) it is for those who became enlightened with lokuttara jhana cittas. (see Vism XX111 for details and also posts under ‘phala samapatti’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts> ..... H:>Sotapanna still have ignorance. They still have avijja. > > May all members benefit from this discussion. .... S:Agreed. There were many helpful details in your message, Htoo. I’m just rather picky as you’ve told me and as Jeff has encouraged me to be;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31065 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Eznir, S: Thank you for the helpful comments you just added to me. They’ve prompted me to reply to another post from last week. First though, I’d like to say that I thought your post (30861) to Howard on his thread on ‘Vi~n~nana as Subjectivity’ was very clever with many excellent comments. Back to our ’Direction’ thread where I also agree with most you say: --- Eznir wrote: <...> > You are right, there is no self to direct them, feeling feels, > perception perceives, intention intends, contact the meeting point, > attention the director, hiri & ottappa the policeman, directed > thinking & pondering are the evaluaters, wisdom knows and so on. .... S: just to be really picky, I think ‘contact the meeting point’ and ‘thinking & pondering are the evaluators’ can be misleading. If you’d like to explain more, fine, otherwise, no problem .... >All > of this are cetasikas that determine consciousness. When the right > ones are present at the right time complementing each other, > consciousness gets elevated to the noble status of an Arahant! .... S: ;-) We agree on the importance of conditions and conditioned dhammas. You’ve obviously read and considered deeply, Eznir. You’re a great asset here. .... > > To give an illustration of `self': > > This `self' is like a parasite, riding piggy-back(clinging), on one's > 5-aggregates, hence 5-clinging-aggregates. It is said to be shaken > off only when one becomes an Arahant. ..... S: Just to clarify - the wrong view or mirage is eradicated at stage of sotapanna, but still mana and subtle attachment until arahant. Not sure if we can allude to a self riding piggy-back before this. ..... >Till then one carries it along. .... S:Or carries the mirage along.... .... > A Trainee(sekha) directs actions in such a way that this parasite > loses its grip, gradually, in 4 stages. A puthujjana doesn't see > this; so when ever the parasite pulls the strings the puthujjana > dances to the tune! If not for this parasite, the 5-aggregates will > persist and break up like the Arahant's. But because of this parasite > new kamma is performed that keeps the aggregates ticking along in > sansara! .... S:Well said;-) .... > > As you rightly stated above, these 5-aggregates are > conditioned/compounded(sankhata dhamma). But they are also that which > determines the determined, fabrications that fabricate, conditions > the conditioned, ie., sankhara. This panchaupadanskandha is like a > double edged sword. An idea of self depends upon the 5-aggregates, > hence 5-clinging-aggregates(sankhara). But this idea of self is > identified with these 5-aggregates(sankhata dhamma). Sankhara and > Sankhata Dhamma go in pairs. In paticcasamuppada there are 12 such > pairs. Each is the sankhara to the following item in turn. But, there > are other items, like ignorance, which is sankhara at any time to all > of those items. .... S: Rather than ‘snkhara at any time to all of those items’, do you mean ‘paccaya’ (condition)? I’m rather confused by the last couple of sentences. .... > > S: I think the key is understanding again rather than intention. > > E: I see it this way, understanding(as in Right Understanding/View) > is just one of the 8 noble factors, intention is the second and there > are 6 other factors. .... S: The second factor is sammaa sankappa (right thought) or vitakka cetasika. Usually by intention we’re referring to cetana cetasika or kamma as in D.O. It is not an eightfold path factor. .... >Right understanding/view is a passive state of > affairs but right intention has the dynamism that propels one to > Nibbana. Both together constitute Wisdom that's Right in the noble 8- > fold path! There's more to say here. .... S: Right view is the forerunner or leader as I understand. I’ll wait for your clarifications here. .... > > The point is, in discussions of this sort, each factor in the Dhamma, > like intention, understanding or even self, cannot be understood in > total apart from the rest of the Dhamma factors in isolation! All > these factors are so intricately connected that discussing one > involves another! .... S: I agree completely.That’s why there has to be a good basis of theoretical understanding of dhammas as anatta and paramattha dhammas have to be clearly distinguished from concepts. Cetana cetasika (intention) arises with every citta and not a path factor. Still it plays a very important role and its function and so on need to be understood. Apologies again for delayed replies anytime, Eznir. Metta, Sarah ====== 31066 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I don't confuse it with ~nana, wisdom, or sati - rather the > opposite. > I was distinguishing vi~n~nana from ~nana. .... S: Apologies for misunderstanding here. .... H: >I understand vi~n~nana as > subjectivity - as a seeming of subjective knowing, a knowing by a "self" > or subject of > experience. The content of experience is, of course, all conditioned, > and it > is conditioned by many factors, .... S: In this case, understanding vinnana, let’s say seeing consciousness as an example, to be a conditioned dhamma,not self in anyway, I’m not quite sure of the point of referring to it as a ‘subjective knowing’, which seems to introduce the self back into the equation, though I realise these are just convenient terms. .... H: >among which are formational processes > (sankhara). But vi~n~nana/subjectivity is an especially ignorance-fueled > sankharic > fabrication, ..... S: I just don’t follow you here. Directly or indirectly speaking we can say that all dhammas are conditioned by ignorance. However, at moments of seeing or hearing consciousness (vinnana), only the seven universal cetasikas arise with these vipaka cittas (result consciousness), not ignorance. So why is it the above? .... H:> and the ignorance that spurs the arising of such > subjectivity is the > basis for dukkha. > The vedantists took subjectivity and raised it to majestic > levels, > identifying ultimate reality with pure subjectivity, leaving all else as > > illusion. The materialists, especially the behavioral materialists, take > the opposite > approach, coming close to denying experience in its entirety. ..... S: So we’re looking at the middle way, the understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas that can be known by sati, panna and their accompanying factors. .... > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: > > From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and its > > Commentary), <...> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And why would it be any more advantageous for consciousness IN > THE > SENSE of experience to cease than for it not to cease? ..... S:It depends on whether it is seen as satisfactory or unsatisfactory. ..... H: I say it would > not. I say > there best exist neither craving for experience nor for absence of > experience. .... S: Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Whether there is any craving or not, all dhammas are inherently unsatisfactory. Why? Because they are impermanent and not in anyone’s control. .... H: > However, subjectivity via eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind is all > advantageously abandoned, for it is all ignorance based. That is what I > take to mean > the cessation of vi~n~nana - the cessation of subjectivity. And it comes > > about with the cessation of ignorance. When the Buddha achieved his > final > liberation under the Bodhi tree, the unraveling aspect of > paticcasamupada occurred. .... S: Agreed. .... H: > That included the cessation of vi~n~nana. .... S: I don’t understand this. There is always a temporary cessation (and of course special experiences of cessation (phala and nirodha samapatti etc) for the Buddha, but only final cessation at parinibbana. .... H: >But the Buddha did not thereby > become > insentient. No longer, however, did there remain even a wisp of sense of > self, > and without that, no ignorance-based fabricating, no arising of a sense > of > subjective knowing and known objects and doorways opening to connect > them, > whence no contact (of subject with object), no self-oriented feeling, no > craving, > no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, no suffering. > ------------------------------------------------------ ..... S: I have problems following this, probably being a dod*;-) So do you agree that any idea of subjective knowing is an illusion (or mirage to follow Eznir’s use of the terms)? Still for the Buddha, there was seeing consciousness, visible objects, mental factors and so on just as there are now for us. Just no dillusion. .... S:> > The commentary adds: <...> .... > Howard: > I don't get much out of it to agree or disagree with. My > understanding > on this issue is as I indicated above and in previous posts on the > topic. .... S: No problem, but as I’m looking at thesutta and commentary which makes good sense to me and you’re looking at other sources which make better sense to you, we may have to let this one go. I think Eznir followed your reasoning better perhaps. Metta, Sarah * dense or doctrinaire ===== 31067 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi again Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > Yes, normal and natural are good ... unless, of course, what > is"normal" and "natural" to one is to steal or cheat or kill or play the > arahant ... or > give extreme examples! ;-)) .... ... S:I agree fully. These would be examples of what are referred to as unnatural or abnormal defilements which harm others in the process. (Not sure I'd include giving extreme examples though ;-)) .... H:> My point, though probably not obvious, is that the naturality of > one > who has made it well along the path may be quite different from one who > has > not, and at earlier stages it is likely, and even important, that one's > actions > not flow naturally, but be artificially constrained to go against the > (natural) > stream in many ways to foster and cultivate needed change. We start > where we > are, not where we hope to be. .... S:I think the last point which you often stress is very important. No point in kidding ourselves that we can and should act like ariyans when we're still mad worldlings. I'm not sure, however, that those artificial constraints work (see the discussions on restraint, guarding the sense doors and resolutions). Again it comes back to our understanding of conditioned dhammas and anatta I understand. .... > With natural (but hopefully more-than-normal ;-) metta, .... S: And as you understand more and more about its value, isn't that a condition for more natural metta to flow without any special prompting or urging too?? Metta and appreciation, Sarah p.s Your qu to Nina about the Buddha or an arahant '*avoiding* pain' and '*escaping* into an absorptive state' (as we read in Mahaparinibbana sutta etc) is exactly one I've asked before to K. Sujin. As Nina said, I understand it came naturally for the Buddha and key disciples to abide in fruition consciousness. They have to spend the day somehow. Rather like it might be natural for an expert pianist to spend part of the day playing, even if he had no need to. Just a natural state by conditions. However, I also find it hard to really understand and may follow up further. I think it's a very good qu. ======= 31068 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka Hi Larry Thanks for the feedback. L:> The precise workings of kamma are > only known by the Buddha. I think the idea is to "drive all blame into > oneself" (a Tibetan slogan) and be aware of the far reaching > consequences of our own volitional consciousness. Interesting slogan, thanks. I'm comfortable with it. My asking about being on the passive end of unpleasant sound arising from someone else's volitional action seems fairly trivial, but I guess I'm leading up to a more serious topic, which I won't raise quite yet- I need to do more reading in the Useful Posts on khamma, because it's a topic that I'm sure has been discussed often enough here. (Well, no need to be secretive about it. Someone very close to me was abused as a child, and I have trouble with the notion that being abused is a result of one's khamma. It seems to me that those on the passive end of cruel behaviour due to another's khamma are in the wrong place in the wrong time. But I'm open, as always, to a deeper understanding of reality that may turn my current understanding inside out. > P: "2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly > afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahants?" > L: Whether you like it or dislike it the resultant 5-door> consciousness is termed akusala because the root consciousness (like, > dislike, bewilderment) is unwholesome. The object of that resultant > consciousness will be "undesirable" rupa [assuming a very simplistic > mechanism of kamma]. Ph: This is very interesting. Liking the sound is a source of attachment, so represents akusala. I guess I should have known this from my understanding of the 8 worldly concerns. Thanks again. Phil 31069 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka In a message dated 3/8/04 7:55:17 AM Central Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: Someone very close to me was abused as a child, and I have trouble with the notion that being abused is a result of one's khamma. It seems to me that those on the passive end of cruel behaviour due to another's khamma are in the wrong place in the wrong time. Phil, My understanding of kamma is that one cannot say that an event such as being abused is the result of that person's kamma. Somewhere the Buddha said that sort of thinking is deluded because the workings of kamma are too complex. I think the important thing about kamma is that it influences our reaction to events not the events themselves. ( Some Buddhist sects including, I believe, Tibetan believe the events are caused by kamma.) Jack 31070 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] the self... how?/Jack In a message dated 3/7/04 2:29:59 PM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: I'd be interested in your reference to where the Blessed One said there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment - perhaps a typo? :-) I have heard of 84,000 doors but have never been given a Tipitaka source. Christine, I meant 84,000. I don't know where it says this in the suttas. 84,000 ways - hmmm, makes it sound so easy, almost like you'd have to be making a concerted effort NOT to get enlightened. Not so easy. There are 973,687,999,423 ways that do not lead to enlightenment. That's my observation and not in the suttas either. (I also attended a Zen centre for a while, and also did some years of formal samatha-vipassana meditation.) That is sad about the lack of instruction you mention in some monasteries in S.E. Asia ... From visits, I am only slightly familiar with Thailand, Myanmar and Sri Lanka (though maybe you meant some other country). Instruction, study and support seem to be in evidence in the monasteries there. [and Betty's son is a monk in Bangkok and perhaps she may have some further knowledge]. In the Satipatthana Sutta: "Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." And to my understanding Satipatthana IS Vipassana. Vipassana (Insight) is the penetrative understanding by direct meditative experience of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and impersonality of all material and mental phenomena of existence. Correction welcome. What do you reckon, Jack? That is my understanding also. The question is how important concepts are in that meditative experience. jack 31071 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - I'm only inserting a comment or two in the following.While you ask for further explanation, I find that I cannot, in justice, really say much more that will be of use. The central point is that the notions of subject and objects-of-subjective-knowing only apply to the erroneous experiencing of us benighted folks. I believe they are deceptive notions, and that experience as it actually is, is free of this duality. Just a couple comments more in the following: In a message dated 3/8/04 4:31:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > I don't confuse it with ~nana, wisdom, or sati - rather the > >opposite. > >I was distinguishing vi~n~nana from ~nana. > .... > S: Apologies for misunderstanding here. > .... > H: >I understand vi~n~nana as > >subjectivity - as a seeming of subjective knowing, a knowing by a "self" > >or subject of > >experience. The content of experience is, of course, all conditioned, > >and it > >is conditioned by many factors, > .... > S: In this case, understanding vinnana, let’s say seeing consciousness as > an example, to be a conditioned dhamma,not self in anyway, I’m not quite > sure of the point of referring to it as a ‘subjective knowing’, which > seems to introduce the self back into the equation, though I realise these > are just convenient terms. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that translating 'vi~n~nana' as "consciousness" is inadequate. I think it is better translated as "subjectivity" in the sense of experience polarized towards a seeming knowing subject. ---------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: >among which are formational processes > >(sankhara). But vi~n~nana/subjectivity is an especially ignorance-fueled > >sankharic > >fabrication, > ..... > S: I just don’t follow you here. Directly or indirectly speaking we can > say that all dhammas are conditioned by ignorance. However, at moments of > seeing or hearing consciousness (vinnana), only the seven universal > cetasikas arise with these vipaka cittas (result consciousness), not > ignorance. So why is it the above? > .... > H:> and the ignorance that spurs the arising of such > >subjectivity is the > >basis for dukkha. > > The vedantists took subjectivity and raised it to majestic > >levels, > >identifying ultimate reality with pure subjectivity, leaving all else as > > > >illusion. The materialists, especially the behavioral materialists, take > >the opposite > >approach, coming close to denying experience in its entirety. > ..... > S: So we’re looking at the middle way, the understanding of cittas, > cetasikas and rupas that can be known by sati, panna and their > accompanying factors. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly the middle way. But we may not see what that is in exactly the same fashion. ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > >---------------------------------------------------------- > S: >>From ‘The Discourse on Right View’ (The Sammaditthi Sutta and > its > >>Commentary), > <...> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > And why would it be any more advantageous for consciousness IN > >THE > >SENSE of experience to cease than for it not to cease? > ..... > S:It depends on whether it is seen as satisfactory or unsatisfactory. > ..... > H: I say it would > >not. I say > >there best exist neither craving for experience nor for absence of > >experience. > .... > S: Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Whether there is any craving or not, all dhammas > are inherently unsatisfactory. Why? Because they are impermanent and not > in anyone’s control. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I disagree. Not unsatisfactory because impermanent, but unsatisfactory because impermanent AND clung to. The cause of dukkha is given in the 2nd noble truth, and that cause is tanha. When we crave that things remain or we crave that they change to be just as we wish, we suffer. ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > H: >However, subjectivity via eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind is > all > >advantageously abandoned, for it is all ignorance based. That is what I > >take to mean > >the cessation of vi~n~nana - the cessation of subjectivity. And it comes > > > >about with the cessation of ignorance. When the Buddha achieved his > >final > >liberation under the Bodhi tree, the unraveling aspect of > >paticcasamupada occurred. > .... > S: Agreed. > .... > H: >That included the cessation of vi~n~nana. > .... > S: I don’t understand this. There is always a temporary cessation (and of > course special experiences of cessation (phala and nirodha samapatti etc) > for the Buddha, but only final cessation at parinibbana. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. The Buddha attained full cessation under the bodhi tree. (But recall what I mean by vi~n~nana, namarupa, phassa, etc) ------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: >But the Buddha did not thereby > >become > >insentient. No longer, however, did there remain even a wisp of sense of > >self, > >and without that, no ignorance-based fabricating, no arising of a sense > >of > >subjective knowing and known objects and doorways opening to connect > >them, > >whence no contact (of subject with object), no self-oriented feeling, no > >craving, > >no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, no suffering. > >------------------------------------------------------ > ..... > S: I have problems following this, probably being a dod*;-) So do you > agree that any idea of subjective knowing is an illusion (or mirage to > follow Eznir’s use of the terms)? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I sure do! (And perhaps it would be best for us to just enjoy this commonality of understanding and not push the rest too far. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- Still for the Buddha, there was seeing> > consciousness, visible objects, mental factors and so on just as there are > now for us. Just no dillusion. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there was visual and mental experience, completely undeluded, entirely free of the sense of knowing/controlling subject, and entirely free of sense of known/controlled objects. ------------------------------------------------------- > .... > S:> >The commentary adds: > <...> > .... > >Howard: > > I don't get much out of it to agree or disagree with. My > >understanding > >on this issue is as I indicated above and in previous posts on the > >topic. > .... > S: No problem, but as I’m looking at thesutta and commentary which makes > good sense to me and you’re looking at other sources which make better > sense to you, we may have to let this one go. I think Eznir followed your > reasoning better perhaps. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > * dense or doctrinaire ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. I'm just not being clear. Definitely not clear. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31072 From: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Jack, Christine mentioned that my son is a monk at Wat Bavornives here in Bangkok and that I might have some idea of the extent of his study and meditation there. Right now he is in Chiangmai for several weeks, at a quiet pavillion in the mountains which my brother in law set up for monks who wish to meditate. Every so often he feels the need to go up to Chiangmai to be alone. For him, meditation has become central to his direction on the Path. When I once asked him how his meditation lead to the growth of wisdom and understanding, he said the following: that when one reached a point when piti (rapture; but not linked with vedana, feeling) arose, insight would then follow. I think he was referring to the idea that insight could arise when the 2nd or 4th (?) jhana had been reached. For most of us, the 4th jhana is too far distant to be a reality in this lifetime, but the monks are taught that the goal can be reached through jhana (samatha meditation). In his temple, study is also stressed and monks are strongly encouraged to study Pali and the Tipitaka to the highest they can achieve of the 9 levels of scholarship recognized here in Thailand. Each level requires hours and even days of grueling tests in order to pass on to the next level. However, whatever contemplation is done so that conditions could arise to bring about satipatthana is probably a private matter for each monk. My son attained level 3 and decided not to go further with the study of Pali, and, as noted before, sees meditation as the method to reach the goal. And yet, when I have discussed with him some of the issues which have come up on dsg or in our discussions with Achaan Sujin, I sense a lot of understanding from his answers (but that is mere speculation since I cannot possibly know what levels of understanding he may or may not have attained). In addition, I think you are correct in asserting that the Abhidhamma is not studied. In fact, most monks shy away from it because they don't understand it (my apologies to any monks on the list who do indeed study Abhidhamma). Years ago, when I had gotten a copy of Nina's ADL, and showed it to monks at Wat Bavorn (this was a few years before my son was born; he is now 30), they actually dissuaded me from reading it! So, I glean from the experiences my son has had that both study and meditation are emphasized, but it is very much up to the individual monk to decide which way to go. Most monks, I think, don't see that both can be developed together, but instead choose one or the other, according to their accumulations. Samatha allows for conditions to arise to cause one to look inward at the various mental states (cetasikas) that arise and fall away; reading, listening, discussing causes conditions to arise to allow for contemplation, so that when conditions are right, a deep and direct understanding of the nature of anatta (not self), anicca (impermanence) and/or dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) can arise as well (but for me these have been very rare and far between). Lastly, I mentioned that my son likes to go to Chiangmai to be alone. He does this, I believe, to get away from the "politics" that goes on within the monkhood (please don't ask for more details on what kind of politics because it is rather a sensitive issue right now). To me that is an indication that the same kilesas (defilements) that plague lay people also plague the monks, and, as we know, one cannot "get away" from dosa and lobha simply by changing location; they are mental states which arise and fall away by conditions, no matter "where" one might be located. metta, Betty PS: Howard, I still owe you an answer to your wonderful explanation of paticcasamuppada. On the day I saw your answer on dsg, I left on a trip to Rajasthan and upon return had found I was "deleted" from dsg. However, Jon informed the managers of yahoo and I have, as of yesterday, been reinstated. Many thanks to Jon. __________________________ > Subject: Re: the self... how?/Jack > > . . .That is sad about the lack of > instruction you mention in some monasteries in S.E. Asia ... From > visits, I am only slightly familiar with Thailand, Myanmar and Sri > Lanka (though maybe you meant some other country). Instruction, > study and support seem to be in evidence in the monasteries there. > [and Betty's son is a monk in Bangkok and perhaps she may have some > further knowledge]. > In the Satipatthana Sutta: "Then the Blessed One addressed the > bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the > purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right > path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of > Mindfulness." And to my understanding Satipatthana IS Vipassana. > Vipassana (Insight) is the penetrative understanding by direct > meditative experience of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and > impersonality of all material and mental phenomena of existence. > Correction welcome. What do you reckon, Jack? > Christine and all, > > > > If you are accepted in some Buddhist monasteries in southeast Asia, > you are > > told to go and meditate. No or little instructions are given. If > you have > > problems, you can get answers from the teachers there. You are told > just to be > > mindful of what is happening. That's it. No study of doctrine, of > the suttas or of > > distinctions found in the Abhidhamma. . . > > > > > > Jack> ________________________________________________________________________ 31073 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/8/04 10:12:20 AM Central Standard Time, beyugala@k... writes: When I once asked him how his meditation lead to the growth of wisdom and understanding, he said the following: that when one reached a point when piti (rapture; but not linked with vedana, feeling) arose, insight would then follow. I think he was referring to the idea that insight could arise when the 2nd or 4th (?) jhana had been reached. For most of us, the 4th jhana is too far distant to be a reality in this lifetime, but the monks are taught that the goal can be reached through jhana (samatha meditation). Betty, Thanks for the informative note. Several comments: The Anananasati Sutta lists 16 lessons toward enlightenment. These lessons are also described by some teachers as the 16 mental steps one goes through even though one might be following some other Buddhist method. Realizing piti and sukkha is one of the last steps before insight. The higher jhanas aren't needed. [snip] In addition, I think you are correct in asserting that the Abhidhamma is not studied. In fact, most monks shy away from it because they don't understand it (my apologies to any monks on the list who do indeed study Abhidhamma). It depends on the monastery. I knew several Thai monks who entered the monastery at the age of 9. They studied the Abhidhamma extensively even at that young age. (Interestingly, the monks I know with this background downplay the Abhidhamma now.) They had little round colored disks with names of the different cetasikas on it. If I remember correctly, they would be asked to pick up the appropriate disk as they became aware of the various cetasikas that arose in their mind. jack , I believe, to get away from the "politics" that goes on within the monkhood (please don't ask for more details on what kind of politics because it is rather a sensitive issue right now). To me that is an indication that the same kilesas (defilements) that plague lay people also plague the monks, and, as we know, one cannot "get away" from dosa and lobha simply by changing location; they are mental states which arise and fall away by conditions, no matter "where" one might be located. Yes, I have heard about the affect of polics also. jack 31074 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Dear Andrew, op 07-03-2004 07:42 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > According to the PTS dictionary, "upadhi" means "...(2) clinging to > rebirth (as impeding spiritual progress), attachment (almost syn. > with kilesa or tanha, cp. nirupadhi & anupadhi)..." N: I have the Sutta Nipata in K.R. Norman's translation and he adds a note; Two meanings: objects which one amasses and also: Thus I would say the second noble truth and the first noble truth are contained in these terms. The attachment to children and cattle is the cause of dukkha, of rebirth. A: I came across the word in H. Saddhatissa's translation of the Sutta- > Nipata, in particular, the Dhaniya Sutta: > "16 Mara now appeared to tempt him [Dhaniya]: He who has children > delights on account of the children. (snipped). > > Here at Cooran, the health of Sandra's father has taken a turn for > the worse. He is a month short of his 90th birthday, has emphysema > and only 30% lung function. Although on oxygen, his breathing is > laboured and he has told us that he is sick of struggling and feels > his time is near. This has made me reflect alot on the first Noble > Truth. I suspect my reaction is more dosa than panna. N: I feel very sorry for you, Sandra and your family. Is he still staying at your house? A: I went down to the shop in glorious sunlight and watched all the > children splashing about in the water, the older boys diving off the > bridge and having a great time, just as I used to do when I was their > age. It was a delightful scene. > How quickly the mind flits from (perhaps) some direct experience of a > gross form of dukkha to the delights of upadhi! And how STRONG > upadhi is! N: The contrast is very striking. When we think of different moments of vipaka experienced through the senses we can understand that all such moments are dukkha. It is so unexpected what we experience and often a real surprise, pleasant or unpleasant. We never know beforehand. A reminder that birth and rebirth are dukkha. A: Can anyone tell me where upadhi fits into Abhidhamma? Is > it synonymous with a cetasika like jivitindriya or chanda or lobha or > moha? N: And this is Abhidhamma, this is life. Because of the two meanings we cannot say that upadhi is synonymous with lobha. Lobha is only one aspect. Nina. 31075 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing as akusala vipaka Hi Philip, I changed the heading: sound is not vipaka, but hearing is. Sound is the object of all the cittas in the eardoor process (vipakacittas, kiriyacittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas) and in the succeeding mind-door process. op 08-03-2004 01:40 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > In chapter 1 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life we find "when we hear > unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing- > consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed > we performed ourselves. But the aversion which may arise very shortly > afterwards is not vipaka, but it arises with akusala citta" > > I have two questions: > > 1) Am I too understand that even being on the passive end of a > sound from a source which we have no control over is akusala vipaka? N: We should not be mistaken by the word akusala of akusala vipaka. The attribute akusala of akusala vipaka merely means: it is result (passive) of akusala kamma (active:cetana, volition) in the past. PH: I can understand that hearing unpleasant words from someone as a > result of our own unpleasant words is akusala vipaka - and I > understand it clearly from recent personal experience ;) . But if I > hear an angry man shout passing by on his way home from a bar in the > middle of the night - not at me but at his drinking companion - is > that > sound a result of "an unwholesome deed I performed myself." N: The sound is unpleasant, thus the hearing is akusala vipaka. That is the dukkha in our life. PH: And even > if it is not a stranger, but someone we know who says unpleasant > words to us when he or she can't get at the real source of his or her > anger, is that the result of our own unwholesome deed? N: Yes. PH: I guess all > beginners have resistance at this idea. It sounds like there would be > some kind of puppet master bringing people together at just the right > time for kamma and vipaka to play out - and we know that isn't the > case. N: No puppet master, but it is the fixed order or law of kamma and vipaka. All dukkha. The truth of dukkha is bitter. But there is a Path leading to the end, the development of right understanding. And we can begin now. PH 2) Isn't it more acurate to say aversion "will" arise shortly > afterwards, rather than "may" arise, except for arahats? N: Not necessarily. It depends on whether there is wise attention to the object or unwise attention. There can be wise attention for us at this moment. But mind, the vipaka is so very, very short, it is past before you realize it. That is why mostly we cannot tell what kind of vipaka it was. And why should we find out? Kusala citta or akusala citta is more important. Right understanding conditions kusala citta, and what is more important: the elimination of akusala, of ignorance and wrong view. The thinking about vipaka is so very, very long. Thinking is never with neutral cittas, it is either kusala or akusala. Learning about the processes helps us to have more understanding about vipaka and about the kusala cittas and akusala cittas that are our reactions to it. When we have more understanding of the shortness of the moments it can be a condition to drop the story sooner. A story is only a story and not helpful, just an illusion. We think, he did this to me: just a short moment of vipaka and then useless thinking about he and me, even with conceit. How self involved we are so long as we have not become ariyans. When we can live more by the moment it is easier not to dwell too much on thinking, and we can begin again. There is another moment again, let us learn about it. We can also learn about thinking: kusala or akusala? You said, you experienced an unpleasant sound, there was akusala vipaka. But this is more: thinking of it afterwards. It is all unpleasant, but it can also be a learning experience as I learnt from A. Sujin. Is this not a consolation? I write all this also to remind myself, you know. An example (I mentioned this before): my brother's ex used to say to me all the time: don't interrupt me. A. Sujin said: let her say this again and again. She meant: a good training. She also said that she was glad about any kind of vipaka, also akusala vipaka. Glad with anything that happens in life. Nina. 31076 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo & Swee Boon (& Jeff), --- nidive wrote: >Htoo: > > There is no Passadhi as Jhanic factor. Passadhi is one > > > of 7 factors of enlightenment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SB: Agree. I have never read that Passadhi is a jhanic factor. ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I forget what was said originally, but we should keep in mind that passaddhi cetasika (actually 2 cetasikas referring to calm of cittas and calm of cetasikas) arises with *all* wholesome cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 6 pairs of cetasikas. 6 for citta and 6 for cetasikas namely_ cittapassaddhi, kayapassaddhi, cittalahuta, kayalahuta, cittamuduta, kayamuduta, cittakammannata, kayakammannata, cittapagunnata, kayapagunnata,cittujukata, kayujukata. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: When samatha is developed and jhana is experienced, there is a high degree of passaddhi cetasika (calm) - no restlessness, agitation or attachment at those moments. Therefore it's very important to understand the clear distinction between calm (passaddhi) and relaxation or attachment such as when we're in a quiet spot or having pleasant feelings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is crucial notation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Htoo, let me know if I misunderstood your original comment. As you say, too, calm is a factor of enlightenment, but again it has to develop with right understanding from the beginning and its characteristic has to be clearly distinguished from its near enemies (if I can use the phrase here). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I would say The Buddha's words. I have to give a reference as someone has been persistently asking for reference to death directly or indirectly. The Buddha preached in His very first Discourse called Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. In that Sutta, The Buddha preached what the middle way (Majjhimapatipada ) or Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ) is. The Buddha preached to His very first five disciples Kondanna, Bhaddiya, Vappa, Mahanama, and Assaji about Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). Majjhimapatipada involves 1. Samma Ditthi 2. Samma Sankappa 3. Samma Kammanta 4. Samma Vaca 5. Samma Ajiva 6. Samma Vayama 7. Samma Sati 8. Samma Samadhi Samma Ditthi or panna comes first while Samma Samadhi comes last as can be seen in the Sutta. This sutta is very valuable and all the necessary dhamma to achieve enlightenment are in that single Sutta. When there is inability to deeply understand dhamma as they really are then some have been crazily restlessly exploring in scriptures in case they can obtain something as evidence so that they can arm themselves to attack genuine Buddhists. The Buddha preached a Sutta to Kalamas. That Sutta is called Kalama Sutta. In that The Buddha preached that facts are not to be assumed just because 1. the report says 2. the legends say 3. the tradition says 4. the scripture says 5. the logical conjecture say 6. the inference says 7. the analogies say 8. the agreement through pondering view says 9. the probability says 10.the thought says to be believe so. Some self-confirm that according to their intellect this might be correct or right or true. The Buddha preached The Dhamma for 45 years. He first preached His first five Disciples. Then He preached Dhamma to a single beings or beings in group or beings in groups or any other settings. For the first 25 years there was no fixed disciple to help him in His personal matters. When He became old, He proposed that someone should be appointed as His personal attendant. At that time every disciple offered themselves to serve as a personal attendant to The Buddha except Venerable Ananda. Venerable Ananda had been a personal attendant since then and he had to hear all dhamma that The Buddha preached day and night. The Dhamma preached in his absence for some reasons had to be re-tell by The Buddha as an agreement at the time of appointing so. Sutta were some time individualized. And some time they were preached for the whole group. At the very first Buddhists' Council, while Venerable Mahakassapa acted as the Pucchaka ( questioner ), Venerable Ananda acted as the Dhamma Bhandhagarika ( the bank of Dhamma ) as he mostly heard most Dhamma preaching. At that time Dhamma were carried over by citation. Recording on leaves first started at 4th Buddhists' Council. Even though lay people can learn Tipitaka, Tipitaka is being maintained by The Sangha. They maintain so that they can preach suitable Dhamma to suitable beings. I am talking these for the benefit of members that Dhamma do work even if a single word can be understood. When there is inability to understand , then there will only be confusion. It is not important at all whether billions of scriptural records have been explored and reviewed but what important is understanding. That is panna. That is panna. That is panna. So initial understanding is very important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also, I agree that concentration should not be confused with vitakka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Vitakka is putting mind on object while concentration stabilizes mind. Vitakka works as Samma Sankappa while Ekaggata or concentration works as Samma Samadhi in Noble Eightfold Path. Vitakka is not concentration. And concentration is not vitakka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: However, as there is ekaggata cetasika (concentration) with every citta,and vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) with all cittas except the sense experiencing cittas of seeing, hearing etc (i.e the dvi pancavinnana cittas), I think it's extremely difficult to determine the distinctions and not productive to try to do so, otherwise there's bound to be more attachment;-). I mention this because the example you gave about touching air at the nostril being associated just with vitakka is a little misleading I think. Comments and references welcome! (How's that, Jeff?;-) Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This will depend on how deeply understood. Even though ekaggata arises and falls away at evey moment and it arises with any citta including vipaka citta, to talk on concentration is not too difficult if there is no strong tag tagged. When a citta arises taking kusala object of meditaion, it falls away immediately. Next citta arises taking kusala object of meditation and it immediately falls away. When this happens successively, ekaggata in there serves as concentration. As that concentration is on kusala dhamma then the concentration is samadhi. If that samadhi is associated with understanding then ( THEN ) it is Samma Samadhi. I do not think reference would ever need here as I am clearly and intelligibly expounding on these matter. But fools can foolishly search in the scripture as they stabbornly think the only right is there. Here I am not being rude. I say fools because all Puthujana are fools. They are so foolish that they think they are them. When Puthujanaship has been overcome and as overcomers are no more fools they can understand Dhamma as they really are because they already see The Dhamma so why search scripture for them. Concentration or jhana or absorption in simple form is not Samma Samadhi. Devimala Hermit got the highest Jhana Arupa jhana but he was still Puthujana. We was reborn in Arupa Bhumi, abode of immaterial beings where no dhamma can be heard and he could not see The Live Buddha. That is why he first laughed and later cried when Bodhisatta the prince Siddattha stood on his forehead when he called the prince to come to him. He laughed because the Noble being stood on his forehead. He had Jhana. So he knew the prince would become Sammasambuddha. So he smiled and laughed. Again he cried because without hearing any Dhamma from Sammasambuddha and to be reborn in immaterial abode. This definitely reveals Jhana or absorption in simple form is useless and it is not Samma Samadhi. Alara and Udaka were both very advanced Jhana achievers. But they both were just Puthujana. Their Jhana is not Samma Samadhi. They were not enlightened. Devadattha attained Jhana with power. He could create 1000 bodies like handsome prince, beautiful princess, deva, yakkha, gumbandha, animals and so on. With that power he approached the prince Ajatasattu whom he advised to kill his own father. The thought of Devadattha was to make Ajatasattu a king. And he himself would kill The Buddha so that he can make himself the buddha ( because he thought he was a buddha. How silly! That is due to lack of Panna ). At his first attempt hurting The Buddha all his jhana were totally gone. Because he did Anatariya Kamma. These Kamma are very very very heavy Kamma. They are called Garuka Kamma. I have written on Kamma at triplegem. Anantariya Kamma are patricide ( killing own father ), matricide, killing arahats, hurting The Live Buddha and division of The Sangha. At his 2nd act of Anantariya Kamma, there followed vomiting of blood. He had 1000 disciples. He proposed 10 facts for The Sangha which include not to eat beef. The Buddha denied all 10 facts because all 10 facts were illogical for The Sangha. By using this denial, he (Devadattha ) assumed himself as a buddha and called for disciples. 500 left with The Buddha and 500 followed him. At his own monastry, Devadattha started to vomit blood. He regreted but it was not in time. He wanted to see his brother-in- law who had been the husband of Yasodaya who again was his blood- related own sister. He called for his 500 disciples and they carried Devadattha on a coach on their shoulder. While they appraoched The BUddha monastry, some Bhikkhus reported that Devadattha came to see you Sir. The Buddha just smiled and said he would not reach my sight. Just before the monastry, the Earth could not bear Devadattha who made division of The Sangha even in the presence of The Buddha ( This is because he wants students. How silly is he! ) and who attacked The Live Buddha by pushing very hugh stone from the high mountain. The Buddhas are always perfected. The stone came down angrily but a small mountain appeared and the stone was stopped but a piece of stone came directly to The Live Buddha and The Buddha was hurt. The whole story reveals that Jhana in pure form is useless and even dangerous because there is possibility of rebirth in immaterial abode where there is no chance to see and hear The Live Buddha and His Dhamma. I would say strongly here that Jhana in simple form is not Samma Samadhi. Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. Vitakka is not concentration. Vicara is not concentration. Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. Samma Samadhi is not right absorption. Jhana is not a dirty word. And many things still left to say May all beings have right view or Samma Ditthi and see Dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 31077 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > S:Back to our journey after rather a long break and too many distractions > on my part. > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > >Htoo: Paramattha is > through pannatta. Anatta is through Atta. > > .... > > S: ??? Please explain. > > .... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: When you start to understand paramattha dhamma that > > understanding run on words of pannatta. We are using pannatta. First > > we use 'Sadda Pannatta' or its equivalent but this again is > > understood through 'Attha Pannatta '. So paramattha is through > > pannatta. So does Anatta even though it is origionally Anatta when we > > are born we were introduced with Atta. ' Hey smile, this is your Mom, > > this is your Dad. ' Then Atta encroached and firmly ramified since > > then. With wisdom the origional Anatta has been back. So I said > > Anatta is through Atta. But actually there is no Atta. All are > > Anatta. I hope you got it. > .... > S:Got it! Though I'd say there is wrong view of atta from the outset > (unless we're sotapannas, but highly unlikely in the human realm). It > doesn't depend on words we're taught like Mom and Dad. Ignorance is the > reason for rebirth at all. So, I wouldn's say anatta then atta then > anatta. I'd say there is wrong view of atta over countless aeons and world > cycles unless any understanding of the truth of anatta (the real state of > dhammas) is developed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I said Atta, I meaned the view of Atta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Htoo: I have said above. Atta is released only at the first gate > > Sotapatti Magga Citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S: Maybe better to say the wrong view of atta is only eradicated at this > stage. > .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As said above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: So you want theoretical knowledge of Anatta and you want to > > throw away Atta. OK, I agree as there is no Atta, then it is not a > > problem. Let's bring Anatta view before we begin the journey. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S:Good. Almost ready to start;-) One point to clarify below. > .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Are you ready with all equipment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S: Ready. Let me just ask for another clarification. In your new series(04) there's plenty of good stress on anatta and understanding different > dhammas as they arise. This being the case, why do you write `he has been > in sitting meditation for a long time'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just typical case. In Biology there is typical cell which contains all characters of plants and animals. Anatta can be seen at any time. In the office, in the water, on top of the mountain, in the sky and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Why not, `he's been shopping, > going on a hike, cooking, talking to his boss in the office for a long > time'?? Doesn't it suggest there's still an attempt to follow and control > the paramattha dhammas, rather than understanding them as they arise, > however his life unfolds? > > Now we're agreed on all the equipment and ready to start the journey, I'm > concerned about any unnecessary limitations along the route;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Would you also explain further about what you meant by 'graduate, > postgraduate etc to Jeff with regard to the suttas?' I think I > misunderstood your comment. > ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nothing really. I just follow his thought. Thought tracing :-) Don't you think there is Atta. He said Anapana is elementary. Satipatthana and Mahasatipatthana are graduate level. So I just want to know what doctorial level is. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 31078 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Kamma - was [Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka] Hello Philip, Larry, Nina and all, At the hospital, I often am called to be with the little ones who have passed away just before or after birth as they lie in their grieving parents' arms. Often so perfect, but so dead. Such distress and anger, such asking of 'Why?' 'Why us who wanted this baby so, and are kind and decent and would have given the baby a wonderful home?', 'Why did God (or fate or the universe) do this?', 'Why didn't it happen to some of 'the others' who are criminals, or child abusers, or whose pregnancy is unwanted?'- mostly there is no answer even after an autopsy. And I used to be puzzled and confused about how this related to the Teachings of the Blessed One. How could a perfect little one who took five breaths 'deserve' such a thing? What did these loving parents do to 'deserve' such a grief and loss? This simply showed my misunderstanding of kamma as 'punishment or reward'. It showed my misunderstanding of anatta. It showed my misunderstanding of conditionality. And it showed my discounting of just how oppressive is our 'wandering on' through the immensity of 'beginningless time'. I now try to remind myself of the inconceivable age and accumulated kamma and vipaka of these streams of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena (me, you and every being) whether the body that currently supports them is one minute or one hundred years old. Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 Assu Sutta "Tears" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html I like Nyanatiloka's anatta definition: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm I am looking forward to any questions or discussions you raise about Kamma and Vipaka - I know I have lots yet to understand. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: but I guess > I'm leading up to a > more serious topic, which I won't raise quite yet- I need to do more > reading in the Useful Posts on khamma, because it's a topic that I'm > sure has been discussed often enough here. (Well, no need to be > secretive about it. Someone very close to me was abused as a child, > and I have trouble with the notion that being abused is a result of > one's khamma. It seems to me that those on the passive end of cruel > behaviour due to another's khamma are in the wrong place in the wrong > time. But I'm open, as always, to a deeper understanding of > reality that may turn my current understanding inside out. 31079 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 0:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo: > This is crucial notation. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Right to the bone, Htoo! ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Buddha preached in His very first Discourse called > Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. > > In that Sutta, The Buddha preached what the middle way > (Majjhimapatipada ) or Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ) is. The Buddha > preached to His very first five disciples Kondanna, Bhaddiya, Vappa, > Mahanama, and Assaji about Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). > > Majjhimapatipada involves > > 1. Samma Ditthi > 2. Samma Sankappa > 3. Samma Kammanta > 4. Samma Vaca > 5. Samma Ajiva > 6. Samma Vayama > 7. Samma Sati > 8. Samma Samadhi > > Samma Ditthi or panna comes first while Samma Samadhi comes last as > can be seen in the Sutta. This sutta is very valuable and all the > necessary dhamma to achieve enlightenment are in that single Sutta. > When there is inability to deeply understand dhamma as they really > are then some have been crazily restlessly exploring in scriptures in > case they can obtain something as evidence so that they can arm > themselves to attack genuine Buddhists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo, one can perceive that the Noble Path doesn't touch directly Jhana or absorption. From Samma Ditthi to Samma samadhi there is a progression that increases up our understanding and conscience, but that gives the practitioner a freedom of choice about methods. You can identify or apply Jhana or ekagatta with any of the seven issues before Samma Samadhi, as Aleister Crowley could say at his poem "A- Ha!": "There are seven keys to the great door, and an eight and one of these that comprises all others." You can take either the Vipassana's path or Samattha's, or both, or none of them... and of course Buddha`s Dispensation covers all humanity and this includes our friends and beloved ones, enemies and indifferent people at large! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha preached a Sutta to Kalamas. That Sutta is called Kalama > Sutta. In that The Buddha preached that facts are not to be assumed > just because > > 1. the report says > 2. the legends say > 3. the tradition says > 4. the scripture says > 5. the logical conjecture say > 6. the inference says > 7. the analogies say > 8. the agreement through pondering view says > 9. the probability says > 10.the thought says > > to be believe so. Some self-confirm that according to their intellect > this might be correct or right or true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cf. The Mahaparinibbanasutta. This were always one of the grater messages of Buddha!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Dhamma > preached in his absence for some reasons had to be re-tell by The > Buddha as an agreement at the time of appointing so. > > Sutta were some time individualized. And some time they were preached > for the whole group. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting...Sariputta so many times posed as Buddha, when he was ill or tired out to preaching Dhamma. If you are right, so the balance's level had to be redressed on these matters soon or later! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At the very first Buddhists' Council, while Venerable Mahakassapa > acted as the Pucchaka ( questioner ), Venerable Ananda acted as the > Dhamma Bhandhagarika ( the bank of Dhamma ) as he mostly heard most > Dhamma preaching. At that time Dhamma were carried over by citation. > Recording on leaves first started at 4th Buddhists' Council. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The maintenance of the Recorded Palm Leaves was a great adventure by itself alone: buddhistic theory and practice conjoining up with perfection! There could be more printed works - PTS, BPS or whatever - about these interesting issues!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Even though lay people can learn Tipitaka, Tipitaka is being > maintained by The Sangha. They maintain so that they can preach > suitable Dhamma to suitable beings. > > I am talking these for the benefit of members that Dhamma do work > even if a single word can be understood. --------------------------------------------------------------------- One single drop of poison maculates all the pond. One single Pill of Allumen or Pothassium Chloride's can purify even the turbid water. One single Tylenol can erradicate headaches. One single shot of Bourbon can disarray your liver and beat your stomach off. One single word of Dhamma at the right occasion, time, event, etc, can erradicate all our kilesas. One single Gift of Dhamma (thanxs Connie!!!!!) can build up all buddhistic dispensation at the good way. --------------------------------------------------------------------- When there is inability to > understand , then there will only be confusion. It is not important > at all whether billions of scriptural records have been explored and > reviewed but what important is understanding. That is panna. That is > panna. That is panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- very good! very good!! very good!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So initial understanding is very important. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- For jainists, the initial step on understanding the scriptures is the main and more important one!!!! > Htoo: > > Yes. Vitakka is putting mind on object while concentration stabilizes > mind. > > Vitakka works as Samma Sankappa while Ekaggata or concentration works > as Samma Samadhi in Noble Eightfold Path. > > Vitakka is not concentration. And concentration is not vitakka. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting again!!! The Noble Path, as I've said before, doesn't touch directly jhana issues, but Ekaggata can be identified itself with Samma Samadhi!!! Can Ekagatta in any other limbs of the Noble Path work up properly at the same line of thought ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This will depend on how deeply understood. Even though ekaggata > arises and falls away at evey moment and it arises with any citta > including vipaka citta, to talk on concentration is not too difficult > if there is no strong tag tagged. > > When a citta arises taking kusala object of meditaion, it falls away > immediately. Next citta arises taking kusala object of meditation and > it immediately falls away. When this happens successively, ekaggata > in there serves as concentration. As that concentration is on kusala > dhamma then the concentration is samadhi. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This answers my question above! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If that samadhi is associated with understanding then ( THEN ) it is > Samma Samadhi. I do not think reference would ever need here as I am > clearly and intelligibly expounding on these matter. But fools can > foolishly search in the scripture as they stabbornly think ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo... I know you aren't so stubborn to stabbing me If I say unto you that is Stubbornly and not Stabbornly... -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Concentration or jhana or absorption in simple form is not Samma > Samadhi. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said, Htoo!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Alara and Udaka were both very advanced Jhana achievers. But they > both were just Puthujana. Their Jhana is not Samma Samadhi. They were > not enlightened. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Alara Kalama and Udaka Rattaputta were Siddartha's masters just after his home departure. They were great Gurus and Yogis, but even Buddha said later that all their knowlegde didn't gave them illumination at the last end. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Devadattha attained Jhana with power. He could create 1000 bodies > like handsome prince, beautiful princess, deva, yakkha, gumbandha, > animals and so on. With that power he approached the prince > Ajatasattu whom he advised to kill his own father. The thought of > Devadattha was to make Ajatasattu a king. And he himself would kill > The Buddha so that he can make himself the buddha ( because he > thought he was a buddha. How silly! That is due to lack of Panna ). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Devadatta were the Doctor Doom (or Magneto) of Buddhism. All his life's story ressembles too much the Great Marvel Villains'!!!!!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Just before the monastry, the Earth could not bear Devadattha who > made division of The Sangha even in the presence of The Buddha ( This > is because he wants students. How silly is he! ) and who attacked The > Live Buddha by pushing very hugh stone from the high mountain. The > Buddhas are always perfected. The stone came down angrily but a small > mountain appeared and the stone was stopped but a piece of stone came > directly to The Live Buddha and The Buddha was hurt. > > The whole story reveals that Jhana in pure form is useless and even > dangerous because there is possibility of rebirth in immaterial abode > where there is no chance to see and hear The Live Buddha and His > Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The bad deeds of Doctor Doom couldn't handle a candle for this basic villain!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would say strongly here that Jhana in simple form is not Samma > Samadhi. Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. > > Vitakka is not concentration. > Vicara is not concentration. > Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. > Samma Samadhi is not right absorption. > Jhana is not a dirty word. > And many things still left to say > > May all beings have right view or Samma Ditthi and see Dhamma as they > really are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- With a warm regard, Mettaya, Ícaro (Kisses! Kisses! Kisses!) 31080 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:21pm Subject: Kamma - was [Re: [dsg] Sound as akusala vipaka] Dear Chris: There are perchance tragedies... tragedies devoided of a definite subject or self: a newborn dead baby, for example. But there are intentional, cold-minded desgracies, raised up by bad people: in my opinion is better blame such ill-deeds than throw off accusations against fate, luck, heaven or even God. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > This simply showed my misunderstanding of kamma as 'punishment or > reward'. It showed my misunderstanding of anatta. It showed my > misunderstanding of conditionality. And it showed my discounting of > just how oppressive is our 'wandering on' through the immensity > of 'beginningless time'. I now try to remind myself of the > inconceivable age and accumulated kamma and vipaka of these streams > of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena (me, you and every > being) whether the body that currently supports them is one minute or > one hundred years old. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keep up your meditation. Mettaya, Ícaro 31081 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:45am Subject: Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah and Howard, Sarah: p.s Your qu to Nina about the Buddha or an arahant '*avoiding* pain' and '*escaping* into an absorptive state' (as we read in Mahaparinibbana sutta etc) is exactly one I've asked before to K. Sujin. As Nina said, I understand it came naturally for the Buddha and key disciples to abide in fruition consciousness. They have to spend the day somehow. Rather like it might be natural for an expert pianist to spend part of the day playing, even if he had no need to. Just a natural state by conditions. However, I also find it hard to really understand and may follow up further. I think it's a very good qu. James: I believe that A. Sujin is partly correct here. The Buddha did naturally abide in fruition consciousness, but he would also abide in deep mental absorption to rid the mind of physical pain. This was something that he taught all of his noble disciples to do. I will be quoting from two sections of MN 36 "The Greater Discourse to Saccaka", and some commentary notes, to illustrate: "And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body and developed in mind? Here, Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed. And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed. Anyone in whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed, and arisen painful feeling does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed, is thus developed in body and developed in mind." 384 "I have confidence in Master Gotama thus: "Master Gotama is developed in body and developed in mind." "Surely, Aggivessana, your words are offensive and discourteous, but still I will answer you. Since I shaved off my hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into homelessness, it has not been possible for arisen pleasant feeling to invade my mind and remain or for arisen painful feeling to invade my mind and remain." "Has there never arisen in Master Gotama a feeling so pleasant that it could invade his mind and remain? Has there never arisen in Master Gotama a feeling so painful that it could invade his mind and remain?" "Why not, Aggivessana?..." 385 Note 384: MA explains the "development of body" here is insight, and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it because, through his development of insight, he understands the feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self; and when he experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it because, through his development of concentration, he is able to escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions. Note:385: Now the Buddha will answer Saccaka's questions by showing first the extremely painful feelings he experienced during the course of ascetic practices, and thereafter the extremely pleasant feelings he experienced during his meditative attainments preceding his enlightenment. ***************** "Aggivessana, I recall teaching the Dhamma to an assembly of many hundreds. Perhaps each person thinks: `The recluse Gotama is teaching the Dhamma especially for me.' But it should not be so regarded; the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma to others only to give them knowledge. When the talk is finished, Aggivessana, then I steady my mind internally, quieten it, bring it to singleness, and concentrate it on that same sign of concentration as before, in which I constantly abide." 392 Note: 392: MA explains the "sign of concentration" (samadhinimitta) here as the fruition attainment of emptiness (sunnata- phalasamapatti). See also MN 122.6 James: Hope this sheds some light on the matter. Sarah, I have picked a sutta from the "Brahmasamyutta" that I want to present but it is very long and has many important considerations to different sections (10 "Kokalika"). I am still pondering how I want to present it and what I think is important. In other words, I haven't forgotten my assignment! ;-)) Just still working on it. Metta, James 31082 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 3:26pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 07 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has been practising meditation for some time. He is doing breathing meditation and he is attending at his nostril. At first air hitting his nostril is not very conspicuous and it hits and hits and hits. With practice, he manages to stay in a calm state attending at nostril. At an unmarked time he sees that the air coming in and going out of his nostril is like sparks which is quite bright like a fireworks firecrackles. He notices that he just compares his perception of breathing to firecrackles which was past perception. He recognizes that perception arises. As he continues to meditate on breathing and he still sees that the air coming in and going out is like a firecrackles crackling with sparks and he notices that perception persists. When perception falls away he notices that perception passes away. That perception is not him or his. There is no self or atta in the whole process here. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. When he is sitting he remembers that he has been sitting for a long time. And he tries to change a bit his sitting and he then changes so that some discomfort can be diminished. He remembers his long sitting and he remembers his past sitting position and he also cognizes the present position of sitting. All he remembers are just perception or sanna and he knows all these through out his meditation section. When perception arises he recognizes that perception arises and while they are persisting he notices that they are persisting. When they fall away he recognizes that they just pass away. All these dhamma sanna or perception just arise and fall away. These perception are just clinging aggregates and they are called sannakkhandha. These perception are not him or his. There is no trace of him or his and there is no self in the whole process. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31083 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 4:32pm Subject: Bye bye Hello All, Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much greater depth and subtlety. I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. Metta Michael 31084 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/8/2004 2:45:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard, > > Sarah: p.s Your qu to Nina about the Buddha or an > arahant '*avoiding* pain' and '*escaping* into an absorptive state' > (as we read in Mahaparinibbana sutta etc) is exactly one I've asked > before to K. Sujin. As Nina said, I understand it came naturally for > the Buddha and key disciples to abide in fruition consciousness. > They have to spend the day somehow. Rather like it might be natural > for an expert pianist to spend part of the day playing, even if he > had no need to. Just a natural state by conditions. However, I also > find it hard to really understand and may follow up further. I think > it's a very good qu. > > James: I believe that A. Sujin is partly correct here. The Buddha > did naturally abide in fruition consciousness, but he would also > abide in deep mental absorption to rid the mind of physical pain. > This was something that he taught all of his noble disciples to do. > I will be quoting from two sections of MN 36 "The Greater Discourse > to Saccaka", and some commentary notes, to illustrate: > > "And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body and developed in > mind? Here, Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught > noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust > after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant > feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, > painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does > not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast > and become distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in > him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is > developed. And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does > not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed. Anyone in > whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling does not invade > his mind and remain because body is developed, and arisen painful > feeling does not invade his mind and remain because mind is > developed, is thus developed in body and developed in mind." 384 > > "I have confidence in Master Gotama thus: "Master Gotama is > developed in body and developed in mind." > > "Surely, Aggivessana, your words are offensive and discourteous, but > still I will answer you. Since I shaved off my hair and beard, put > on the yellow robe, and went forth from the home life into > homelessness, it has not been possible for arisen pleasant feeling > to invade my mind and remain or for arisen painful feeling to invade > my mind and remain." > > "Has there never arisen in Master Gotama a feeling so pleasant that > it could invade his mind and remain? Has there never arisen in > Master Gotama a feeling so painful that it could invade his mind and > remain?" > > "Why not, Aggivessana?..." 385 > > Note 384: MA explains the "development of body" here is insight, > and "development of mind" concentration. When the noble disciple > experiences pleasant feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it > because, through his development of insight, he understands the > feeling to be impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self; and when he > experiences painful feeling, he does not become overwhelmed by it > because, through his development of concentration, he is able to > escape from it by entering into one of the meditative absorptions. > > Note:385: Now the Buddha will answer Saccaka's questions by showing > first the extremely painful feelings he experienced during the > course of ascetic practices, and thereafter the extremely pleasant > feelings he experienced during his meditative attainments preceding > his enlightenment. > ***************** > "Aggivessana, I recall teaching the Dhamma to an assembly of many > hundreds. Perhaps each person thinks: `The recluse Gotama is > teaching the Dhamma especially for me.' But it should not be so > regarded; the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma to others only to give > them knowledge. When the talk is finished, Aggivessana, then I > steady my mind internally, quieten it, bring it to singleness, and > concentrate it on that same sign of concentration as before, in > which I constantly abide." 392 > > Note: 392: MA explains the "sign of concentration" (samadhinimitta) > here as the fruition attainment of emptiness (sunnata- > phalasamapatti). See also MN 122.6 > > James: Hope this sheds some light on the matter. Sarah, I have > picked a sutta from the "Brahmasamyutta" that I want to present but > it is very long and has many important considerations to different > sections (10 "Kokalika"). I am still pondering how I want to > present it and what I think is important. In other words, > I haven't > forgotten my assignment! ;-)) Just still working on it. > > Metta, James ============================= James, I don't see why the opposite of the commentarial interpretation couldn't be just as plausible: Pleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because it is as nothing compared to jhanic joy or jhanic equanimity, and unpleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because of insight into impermanence, impersonality, insubstantiality etc. For that matter, why couldn't insight be the answer to both! Also, the terminology of "the body being developed" is a strange one regardless of how it is interpreted. So I feel that nothing very definitive has been revealed here. These commentarial notes are unpersuasive to me. With metta, Howard 31085 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: too much Hi Nina, I want to go all the way to the end of Visuddhimagga. I'm sure Jim will be back in the spring. Larry 31086 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye MIchael This is not a ploy to keep you active on the list, although I will of course miss your contribution to the discussion ;-)) --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello All, > > Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a > sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list > completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I > have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the > clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the > paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be > available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not > have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be > able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much > greater depth and subtlety. > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. > Metta > Michael I would really like to know what you see as the 'problem' with the distinction between dhammas that can be directly experienced and concepts that are creations of the mind. What in your view is the implication of positing such a distinction and, in particular, which aspects of the teachings as found in the suttas and abhidhamma do you see it as contradicting? I hope you will give us something meaty to ponder over in your absence. Jon 31087 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Vism.XIV 63 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 63. 16. The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or it is manifested as untouchedness, as the state of gaps and apertures (cf. Dhs. 638). Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above, below, around, that'. 31088 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi Nina, I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not self. Is it so because space is actually 'edge', a characteristic of matter? Larry 31089 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 6:15pm Subject: Re: Bye bye Dear Michael Good Bye! With time I will translate you some material from english texts ( Sinhalese and Thai ones will better wait ) for your site, as a Dhamma Gift. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- the teachings of the Buddha have a much greater depth and subtlety. > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope so. Mettaya, Ícaro 31090 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Dear Larry > I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not > self. Is it so because space is actually 'edge', a characteristic of > matter? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Space - akasa - is classified as a "non-real" Paramattha Dhamma, as Bodily language or vocal intimation. one can keep in mind that there were issues that Buddha refused to judge or expound to others, like the infinitude of Space, the origin of world, etc. Mettaya, Ícaro 31091 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi, Icaro (and Larry, and Nina, and all) - In a message dated 3/8/04 9:21:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Space - akasa - is classified as a "non-real" Paramattha Dhamma > ========================== And what, pray tell, is that? (Besides being a contradiction in terms! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31092 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi all, There is a slight discrepancy between the PTS (?) translation from MN 140 Nina gave and B. ~Nanamoli's: PTS: "And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth..." ~N: "What is the internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth..." L: The first one has "derived therefrom" and the second one has "clung-to". Larry 31093 From: Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi Howard and Icaro, U Rewata Dhamma has this note on "non-concretely produced matter" in CMA p. 241: "The types of matter in groups (8) - (11) are designated non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa) because they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter. Thus they are not included among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." [8 - 11 = space element, 2 intimations, lightness, malleability, weildiness, production of matter, continuity of matter, decay, impermanence] The basic 8 inseparables Nina referred to are earth, water, fire, air, color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. All rupa is produced in inseparable groups. There is no space between smell and taste. But there is space between clusters of inseparable groups. It seems to me all these clusters have conventional names like hand, foot, mouth, bread, bicycle. Sense organs separate the inseparables. Smell is cognized separately from taste. Can we say in the cognitive series rupa is delimited by impermanence? Larry 31094 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye Hi Michael, I second Jon's request--not an unreasonable one, I think (and hope). mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye > MIchael > > This is not a ploy to keep you active on the list, although I will of > course miss your contribution to the discussion ;-)) > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello All, > > > > Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a > > sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list > > completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I > > have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the > > clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the > > paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be > > available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not > > have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be > > able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much > > greater depth and subtlety. > > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. > > Metta > > Michael > > I would really like to know what you see as the 'problem' with the > distinction between dhammas that can be directly experienced and > concepts that are creations of the mind. > > What in your view is the implication of positing such a distinction > and, in particular, which aspects of the teachings as found in the > suttas and abhidhamma do you see it as contradicting? > > I hope you will give us something meaty to ponder over in your > absence. > > Jon 31095 From: Tahn Aaron Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Sending Acariya Mun Biographies for free distribution Hi everyone, My name's Aaron and I'm a monk staying at Wat Pa Baan Taad - Acariya Maha Boowa's monastery in Northeastern Thailand. I subscribed to many Theravadan groups last night, for I am trying to gather together a list of mailing addresses of international Buddhist communities, organizations, monasteries, meditation groups, etc... who would be interested in receiving a shipment of the new 2nd edition English translation of Venerable Acariya Mun's biography to share amongst their friends and families, members of other Buddhist groups, public or university/college libraries, and/or whoever else they might think would be interested in reading it. Acariya Mun's biography was written by Acariya Maha Boowa in 1971, and translated by one of his long-time American disciples - Acariya Dick Silaratano- for several years before it was first printed in 2003. Last year, the biography was registered with the National Library of Congress in the United States and it has recently been given the ISBN - 974-92007-4-8 which makes the book more convenient to use by computerized libraries. The new English translation of the Acariya Mun Biography can be downloaded or read from: http://www.luangta.com/english/site/book8_biomun.html should you like to review the book we wish to send overseas. Just to assure everyone - the cost of shipping the books is covered over here in Thailand and Acariya Maha Boowa's books are always given away for free distribution. At present, many copies of the biography are being printed in Bangkok which will be sent overseas in about a month's time. We are now contacting Buddhist groups and organizations worldwide to see if they'd be willing to receive them and share them out amongst their members. So, should any Buddhist community be interested in receiving a shipment of Acariya Mun's Biography could you please reply to this email at aaronrychlo@m... , sending me your contact information, mailing address - and an estimation of how many people belong to your community so we will be able to send you an appropriate amount of copies? If anyone has any more questions, please feel free to reply and ask them. Thanks you for your time Regards, Tahn Aaron Forest Dhamma Books Wat Pa Baan Taad Baan Taad Ampher Meuang Udon Thani 41000 Thailand www.luangta.com/english/site/books.php 31096 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:08pm Subject: New Member Dear Friends, I am a new arrival. I expect to be a learner rather than a learned communicator. I have examined some of the posts here and am much impressed. I see I will be challenged to keep up or even understand the discussion. I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis to the Hindus. It was the mystics who attracted me. A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. Buddhist practice is now the center of my life, though I also publish a magazine and provide spiritual and other help to prisoners. I bring mindfulness to my work as much as possible because I don't want to be far from practice. I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. Thank you for being here and making this experience possible. with loving kindness for all, Doret 31097 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bye bye Hi Michael, I’d just like to add that personally, I’ve greatly appreciated all our discussions and your threads with others as well. Your contribution here is very valuable and I hope you’ll pop back in from time to time. We’ll be waiting;-) We all have diferent definitions of ‘clatter’, it seems. Certainly I feel no relief at the prospect of not being ‘pestered’ by you or anyone else;-) Hope we can continue inspecting the dust together and appreciating ‘the greater depth and subtlety' you mention as wisdom grows. Thanks again for your kind wishes and all your great contributions to date. Metta, Sarah ====== 31098 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Sarah) - James, I don't see why the opposite of the commentarial interpretation couldn't be just as plausible: Pleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because it is as nothing compared to jhanic joy or jhanic equanimity, and unpleasant feeling doesn't enter the mind because of insight into impermanence, impersonality, insubstantiality etc. For that matter, why couldn't insight be the answer to both! Also, the terminology of "the body being developed" is a strange one regardless of how it is interpreted. So I feel that nothing very definitive has been revealed here. These commentarial notes are unpersuasive to me. > > With metta, > Howard Okay, you don't have to believe it or anything. I was just offering the information for your perusal. Honestly, when I first read this information I was somewhat taken aback myself, but then I considered deeply why. I realized that I was taken aback because the information didn't fit in with my preconceived notions of what a Buddha's and/or an Arahant's mind is like. So, rather than argue with the commentary or try to find flaws in it, I realized that I don't really know what the Buddha's mind was like. I don't agree with all commentary notes but when you read the entire conversation in this sutta, what the Buddha was explaining, the commentary notes are pretty solid. They fit the context perfectly of what the Buddha was saying. Have you read the whole sutta? I also don't understand why you don't like the terminology of `the body being developed' and characterize it as `strange'. You don't have a choice in the matter! LOL! That is what the Buddha said. Rather than just dismiss it as `strange' you should try to understand what he meant. Look at this subject a different way: You believe that the Buddha should have been able to eliminate pain with insight; could the Buddha also eliminate sickness with insight? (Don't ask Deepak Chopra that question! LOL!). Aren't there certain things that are just intrinsic to the human body that cannot be eliminated with insight? Just consider that. The Buddha didn't have any pain medication so he would enter mental absorption to keep the tranquility of his mind in the face of extreme pain. Makes perfect sense to me and doesn't reveal any weakness or dosa. Metta, James 31099 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 10:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Dear Doret (& Htoo), --- Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am a new arrival. I expect to be a learner rather > than a learned communicator. I have examined > some of the posts here and am much impressed. > I see I will be challenged to keep up or even > understand the discussion. .... S: Welcome to DSG! Many thanks for sending this introductory post. Pls don’t be concerned if you can’t follow all the discussions - it’s always rather difficult coming in on threads that are underway. Feel free to ask for any clarifications or assistance. .... > I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling > from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis > to the Hindus. It was the mystics who attracted me. > A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me > to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was > my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. .... S: This is very interesting. May I ask who the monk was and where you met him? .... > Buddhist practice is now the center of my life, though I > also publish a magazine and provide spiritual and > other help to prisoners. I bring mindfulness to my work > as much as possible because I don't want to be far > from practice. ..... S: This is most commenable. I’m sure we’ll all look forward to hearing more about your work. Which country are you in? A long time back in England (before Jon and I were married), he was sending me boxes of Nina’s book ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ which I was distributing in temples and prisons with the help of a friend. ..... > I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our > Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful > Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as > possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. ..... S: We’re all learners here, Doret. You’ll see that Htoo is also considered a good friend here and shares many guides and comments with us too. .... > Thank you for being here and making this experience > possible. .... S: I’m sure I speak for everyone when I thank you for joining us too. A few map signs which may help: 1.Please note that posts can also be read or searched here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ 2. A selection of posts from the archives (selected by the moderators) can be seen here under Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Some topics to look for maybe: -New to the list -Abhidhamma for beginners 3. A simple Pali glossary can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms 4. A very useful Pali dictionary can be found at: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html 5. Two texts are being referred to a lot on the list at the moment. If you have a copy or access to a library copy it’s helpful: a) Visuddhimagga, Path of Purification, available from BPS or Pariyatti b) Samyutta Nikaya, Connected Discourses of the Buddha, available from Wisdom and many sources, transl by B.Bodhi ***** I think the best thing for newcomers is to just start threads of your own, so we look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah p.s You may also like to take a look in the photo album to get more idea of who you’re talking to. If you or any other newcomers have a pic to add, we’ll all be delighted. (We’re still waiting for Htoo’s;-);-)) ================================== 31100 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack & Christine, C:> I'd be interested in your reference to where the Blessed One said > there were 94,000 ways to reach enlightenment - perhaps a typo? :-) > I have heard of 84,000 doors but have never been given a Tipitaka > source. <...> J:> I meant 84,000. I don't know where it says this in the suttas. .... Sarah: I think 84,000 refers to the number of units in the Tipitaka as rehearsed at the first Council. Reference is made to it in the Atthasalini (Expositor), the Bahiranidana (Intro to the Vinaya) and other commentaries. More detail was given in these earlier posts I wrote in a series on the Bahiranidana: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9961 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10143 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10310 I’ll just give a few extracts and added comments for those who’re busy;-): “All this forms the word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment, twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first, intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), ninefold according to the Angas (Factors), and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.” .... S:In other words, the 84,000 does not refer to ‘different ways’ or ‘doors’ but to the collection of teachings, ‘uniform in sentiment’ as the passage above from the Bahiranidana continues to indicate: .... “How is it uniform in sentiment? During the interval of forty-five years from the time He realized the unique and perfect Enlightenment until he passed away in the element of Nibbana being free from clinging to the material substratum, whatever the Exalted One has said either as instruction to devas, men, nagas, yakkhas, and other beings or on reflection, has but one sentiment and that is emancipation. Thus it is uniform as regards sentiment.’” **** S: Of the 84,000 units, 82,000 are said to be taken from the Buddha and 2,000 from the bhikkhus. ..... “Herein, a sutta with a unitary application is one Unit of the Dhamma. Whatever is of multiple application, the number of Units of the Dhamma in it depends on the number of topics of application. In metrical compositions the question and the answer form two different Units of the Dhamma. In the Abhidhamma, each analysis of a triad or a dyad or the analysis of each thought-process forms a separate Unit of the dhamma. In the Vinays, there are the subjects for rules, tabulations, analysis of terms, secondary conditions of guilt, and of innocence and the demarcation of the threefold delimiting factors of offences. Herein, each category should be understood as a separate Unit of the Dhamma. Thus it has 84,000 divisions according to the Units of Dhamma. “Thus, this word of the Buddha which is uniform in sentiment taken as a whole (without division), and consists of such divisions as the Dhamma and the Vinaya in the divisions such as those into two and so forth, has been laid down as, 'This is the Dhamma and this is the Vinaya, these are the first, intermediate, and final sayings of the Buddha, these are the Vinaya, Sutta, and Abhidhamma Pitakas, these are the Nikayas from Digha to Khuddaka, these are the nine angas commencing with sutta and these are the 84,000 Units of the Dhamma,' was rehearsed together by the assembly of self-controlled monks with Mahakassapa as their leader verily observing this distinction. “And not only this, but other divers distinctions in compilation to be met in the three Pitakas, such as the stanzas containing lists of contents, the arrangement into chapters, noting down the repetitions, and the classification into kindred sections of ones, twos, and so forth, that into groups of kindred topics, and into group of fifties and so forth, have been determined when it was rehearsed together in seven months” .... S: This is referring to the rehearsal which lasted seven months of the texts at the First Council, clearly including the Abhidhamma Pitaka. .... “And at the conclusion of its rehearsal this great earth trembled and quaked, shook and shook violently many times over, up to its ocean-limits as though giving its blessing at the joy produced that this dispensation of the Lord of Ten Powers had been made by the Elder Mahakassapa to last a period of time extending 5,000 years. And many wondrous things became manifest. And this is the First Great Convocation ......” **** S: All the quotes above were from the Baahiranidaana (of the Samantapaasaadikaa, the Vinaya Commentary), transl by N.A, Jayawickrama, PTS. Hope this helps. Still only One Way -- that of satipatthana -- as I understand. Metta, Sarah ===== 31101 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack HI Jack & Jeff, S:>.....as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is > essential > for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right > understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. ... Jack: > I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper > understanding of an object is necessary before one does > samadhi/vipassana meditation? ..... S: Yes, I think that when there is right understanding of how an object of samatha conditions calm and other wholesome states at this moment or when there is right understanding of a nama or rupa, then there are conditions for samatha and vipassana to develop without requiring any idea of ‘doing’ anything. To give a simple example for both: a) Metta is an object of samatha bhavana. Recently here there’s been some discussion about the quality of metta. I gave this quote from the commentary to the first stanza of the metta sutta: “Or alternatively, the word ‘gentle’ (mudu: lit. ‘malleable’) [means that]he would be without grimaces (see Vis ch i,61), open-countenanced, easy to talk with and as welcoming as a good ford with an easy approach. “And he would be not only gentle but also ‘not proud’(anatimaanii) as well; he would not be proud towards others on account of such grounds forpride as birth, race, etc, but would abide like Elder Sariputta even-minded [to all alike] whether outcaste or prince (A.iv,376).” **** S: By reflecting and understanding the quality of metta and developing it when there are opportunities, like now as we speak to each other but without any attachment or wishing to be ‘the person with metta’, there can be conditions for the development of calm with metta as object. Without a clearer and clearer understanding of the quality of metta, it cannot be developed or known. b) Sound as an object of vipassana. Likewise, vipassana(insight) or satipatthana cannot be developed without a clearer and clearer understanding of the objects to be known as they appear at this moment. So now, there are many sense door and mind door processes, but are any namas or rupas understood? We think we hear the sounds of birds, or fans or clicking of the keyboard but this is an illusion of subjectivity I think Howard would say;-) In reality, there are just different experiences of hearing, seeing, smelling and so on and the objects, the rupas, which are heard, seen and so on. Because the sense experiences are immediately followed by thinking and other mind-door activity, we’re left with the illusion of hearing the key-board and a ‘self’ that does this hearing. Therefore, whether we sit on a cusion or read a book or go for a hike, it is the clear understanding which will be the main factor in the development of satipatthana as I understand, rather than the cushion or book or hill. .... Jack: > I also am not sure what you mean by proper understanding of an object. > If > one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what > does one > have to understand about it before using it in mental development? .... S: A very good and difficult question;-) It is the right attention and other 'rights' rather than the breath which will make the difference. Just concentrating on breath or any other object in itself, will not make the consciousness wholesome. Why should it? At a most elementary level, I find it useful to reflect on how life and all we hold dear and important depends on this very in and out-breath. Without breath there’d be no life at all. Even a little wise reflection like this can be a condition for calm. However, I don’t believe it’s given as an object that can easily condition calm with wise reflection in daily life at all, unlike metta, death or the qualities of the Buddha, for example, which are easier to understand, I think. What I think is difficult is that as soon as there’s an effort or wish to focus on breath (or death or metta or a kasina) in order to have calm or to develop samatha, or on a paramattha dhamma in order to develop vipassana, then wishing and attachment springs up immediately. Still, with wise attention and awareness, even such attachment can be the object of understanding. I think such clinging is far more insiduous than we realise, however, and here I’m definitely speaking from experience;-) .... Jack: > Sorry, but the more times I read your above comments the more confused I > got. > I couldn't find the post you sent to Victor so that might be my problem. ..... S: I understand it probably sounds very idiosyncratic;-)Please let me know if I can explain any further. This was the controversial treadmill post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m26382.html If you have any spare time, you may also wish to look in U.P. under some of these headings: satipatthana samatha concentration vipassana anapanasati http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts **** S: Jeff, you wrote: Jeff: >What is the big deal about "right understanding?" It seems that it is a way for > insight practitioners to find some line to draw between their tidy little patch > of dry farming and the moist rain forest of jhana. It reminds me of the two > yards that are almost adjoining. One neighbor is armed with chemical defoliants to kill all signs of life as they creep over from the guy next door who is rain > harvesting and mulching his organic garden. .... S: Christine helpfully answered the first question (post 31023) with good quotes, relevant to my journey with Htoo as well;-) I hope the comments above may also be helpful or at least food for further discussion. Jeff, I like your examples here;-) Frankly, I have no agenda or chemical defoliants for keeping any ‘tidy little patch’ and am a great lover of rain forests and organic gardens. I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding by all of us as to our farming practices, however, and would urge a careful consideration of the basics so that we are not under any illusion of either having a ‘tidy little patch’ or a ‘rain forest’ when in truth we just have some weeds and straggly creepers and tangles to be disentangled with wisdom: ***** SN1:23 (Bodhi translation), Tangle “A tangle inside, a tangle outside, this generation is entangled in a tangle. I ask you this, O Gotama, Who can disentangle this tangle?” “A man established on virtue, wise, Developing the mind and wisdom, A bhikkhu ardent and discreet: He can disentangle this tangle.” **** S: In the Dhammasangani (A Buddhist manual of Psychological Ethics, PTS),1059, attachment is described in many ways, including as an illusion (maayaa), a forest (vana.m), a jungle (vanatho) -- which is referring to the ‘impenetrable, impassable nature of tropical forest growth which serves to illustrate the dangers of lobha--, an obstruction (aavara.na.m), an obsession (pariyu.t.thaana.m) and a creeper (lataa) to name just a very few from the long list. Referring to the creeper, the footnote adds that greed or lust strangles its victim, as a creeper strangles a tree. The Dhammapada uses the same word in verse 340, stressing again that it is wisdom which cuts off the root: “...Ta~n ca disvaa lata’m jaata’m muula’m pa~n`naaya chindatha” “Seeing the creeper that has sprung up, with wisdom cut off root.” I look forward to further comments from either of you or anyone else. Metta, Sarah ======= 31102 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 0:00am Subject: Re: Bye bye Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello All, > > Just a quick note to let you know that I will be taking a sabbatical from the list. I am not stepping out of the list completely but will not be receiving any e-mails in my inbox. I have decided to enjoy the silence in my meditation instead of the clatter in the list. Those who are firm believers in the paramatha/pannatti duality may feel some relieve that I will not be available to pester them, but I still wish that some of them do not have such a thick layer of dust over their eyes, and thus will be able to realize that the teachings of the Buddha have a much greater depth and subtlety. > I wish all of you abide in deep peace and equanimity. > Metta > Michael I will be sorry to see you go, even temporarily. Your presence in this group has helped me immensely- your articulation of what I instinctively felt solved many conflicts in my heart and mind. I wish you well in your practice and for the growth of continued serenity and stillness. When there is stillness within there will be stillness without, regardless of the circumstances. When you establish that stillness I hope that you will come back. Metta, James 31103 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:17am Subject: Aspects of Speech-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.10 Dear Group, This sutta puts forward the point that we can think we are good people, everyone else can think we are good people, but the defilements lay hiding waiting for an opportunity to arise. A person can seem even-tempered, calm and gentle until a particular situtation occurs i.e. the right buttons are pushed, and anger and hatred erupt. The story of Lady Vedehika, the five aspects of speech, and the simile of the saw are great reminders to us all not to assume that progress towards equanimity is irreversible. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- § 2.10. "Once, monks, in this same Savatthi, there was a lady of a household named Vedehika. This good report about Lady Vedehika had circulated: 'Lady Vedehika is gentle. Lady Vedehika is even-tempered. Lady Vedehika is calm.' Now, Lady Vedehika had a slave named Kali who was diligent, deft, & neat in her work. The thought occurred to Kali the slave: 'This good report about my Lady Vedehika has circulated: "Lady Vedehika is even-tempered. Lady Vedehika is gentle. Lady Vedehika is calm." Now, is anger present in my lady without showing, or is it absent? Or is it just because I'm diligent, deft, & neat in my work that the anger present in my lady doesn't show? Why don't I test her?' "So Kali the slave got up after daybreak. Then Lady Vedehika said to her: 'Hey, Kali!' "'Yes, madam?' "'Why did you get up after daybreak?' "'No reason, madam.' "'No reason, you wicked slave, and yet you get up after daybreak?' Angered & displeased, she scowled. Then the thought occurred to Kali the slave: 'Anger is present in my lady without showing, and not absent. And it's just because I'm diligent, deft, & neat in my work that the anger present in my lady doesn't show. Why don't I test her some more?' "So Kali the slave got up later in the day. Then Lady Vedehika said to her: 'Hey, Kali!' "'Yes, madam?' "'Why did you get up later in the day?' "'No reason, madam.' "'No reason, you wicked slave, and yet you get up later in the day?' Angered & displeased, she grumbled. Then the thought occurred to Kali the slave: 'Anger is present in my lady without showing, and not absent. And it's just because I'm diligent, deft, & neat in my work that the anger present in my lady doesn't show. Why don't I test her some more?' "So Kali the slave got up even later in the day. Then Lady Vedehika said to her: 'Hey, Kali!' "'Yes, madam?' "'Why did you get up even later in the day?' "'No reason, madam.' "'No reason, you wicked slave, and yet you get up even later in the day?' Angered & displeased, she grabbed hold of a rolling pin and gave her a whack over the head, cutting it open. Then Kali the slave, with blood streaming from her cut-open head, went and denounced her mistress to the neighbors: 'See, ladies, the gentle one's handiwork? See the even-tempered one's handiwork? See the calm one's handiwork? How could she, angered & displeased with her only slave for getting up after daybreak, grab hold of a rolling pin and give her a whack over the head, cutting it open?' "After that this evil report about Lady Vedehika circulated: 'Lady Vedehika is vicious. Lady Vedehika is foul-tempered. Lady Vedehika is violent.' "In the same way, monks, a monk may be ever so gentle, ever so even- tempered, ever so calm, as long as he is not touched by disagreeable aspects of speech. But it is only when disagreeable aspects of speech touch him that he can truly be known as gentle, even-tempered, & calm. I don't call a monk easy to admonish if he is easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish only by reason of robes, almsfood, lodging, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick. Why is that? Because if he doesn't get robes, almsfood, lodging, & medicinal requisites for curing the sick, then he isn't easy to admonish and doesn't make himself easy to admonish. But if a monk is easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish purely out of esteem for the Dhamma, respect for the Dhamma, reverence for the Dhamma, then I call him easy to admonish. Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will be easy to admonish and make ourselves easy to admonish purely out of esteem for the Dhamma, respect for the Dhamma, reverence for the Dhamma.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying a hoe & a basket, saying, 'I will make this great earth be without earth.' He would dig here & there, scatter soil here & there, spit here & there, urinate here & there, saying, 'Be without earth. Be without earth.' Now, what do you think -- would he make this great earth be without earth?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because this great earth is deep & enormous. It can't easily be made to be without earth. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to the great earth -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying lac, yellow orpiment, indigo, or crimson, saying, 'I will draw pictures in space, I will make pictures appear.' Now, what do you think -- would he draw pictures in space & make pictures appear?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because space is formless & featureless. It's not easy to draw pictures there and to make them appear. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to space -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying a burning grass torch and saying, 'With this burning grass torch I will heat up the river Ganges and make it boil.' Now, what do you think -- would he, with that burning grass torch, heat up the river Ganges and make it boil?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because the river Ganges is deep & enormous. It's not easy to heat it up and make it boil with a burning grass torch. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to the river Ganges -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Suppose there were a catskin bag -- beaten, well-beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling -- and a man were to come along carrying a stick or shard and saying, 'With this stick or shard I will take this catskin bag -- beaten, well- beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling -- and I will make it rustle & crackle.' Now, what do you think -- would he, with that stick or shard, take that catskin bag -- beaten, well-beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling -- and make it rustle & crackle?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because the catskin bag is beaten, well- beaten, beaten through & through, soft, silky, free of rustling & crackling. It's not easy to make it rustle & crackle with a stick or shard. The man would reap only a share of weariness & disappointment." "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to a catskin bag - - abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" "No, lord." "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words."[MN 21] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31104 From: Andrew Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Dear Nina Thank you for this extra information on upadhi. It gives me a sense of the difficulties involved in translation (and perhaps how easily doctrinal errors can stem from inaccurate translation). > N: I have the Sutta Nipata in K.R. Norman's translation and he adds a note; > Two meanings: objects which one amasses and also: which one has for such things, which form an attachment and lead one back to > rebirth. The word is, therefore, very often translated as substrate (of > renewed existence)", and also as "affection". So a man with sons or cattle > rejoices because he has sons or cattle, which he loves. He also grieves > because he has sons or cattle, which attach him to the world and cause him > to be reborn.> > Thus I would say the second noble truth and the first noble truth are > contained in these terms. The attachment to children and cattle is the cause > of dukkha, of rebirth. You wrote: > N: I feel very sorry for you, Sandra and your family. Is he still staying at > your house? Thank you for your kind thoughts. Yes, Sandra's father lives with us on the farm and would like to stay here until the end. We will do all we can to accomodate his wishes. You wrote: When we think of different moments of > vipaka experienced through the senses we can understand that all such > moments are dukkha. It is so unexpected what we experience and often a real > surprise, pleasant or unpleasant. We never know beforehand. A reminder that > birth and rebirth are dukkha. A: My reflections, too, were focussed on the absence of control. So much like being swept along in a flood. > N: And this is Abhidhamma, this is life. Because of the two meanings we > cannot say that upadhi is synonymous with lobha. Lobha is only one aspect. A: My question was a bit broad. I need to finish reading my CMA and taking notes! As a matter of fact, I will be taking a break from my various email groups for a while. Hope to catch up with you all some time in the future. With Best wishes Andrew 31105 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > k: I know what you are saying but I think both of you dont know what > I am saying, that is why I say there are times in between there are > satipatthana. .... S: Of course. Even when there is some understanding of the value of satipatthana and its development, moments of right undersanding accompanied by the other factors, are very infrequent, especially for beginners like us;-) Why? Not enough detachment from conditioned realities - so much accumulated ignorance and attachment to certain states, including wholesome ones;-) .... K:>I am not speculating, what I am saying we cannot > expect to continue to have satipatthana while we are doing akusala > actions. .... S: While we continue to think in terms of ‘situations’ - the good ones, the bad ones and so on, I think it’s hard to have understanding of the namas and rupas involved. Like in the discussions on kamma-vipaka. We think of a terrible or wonderful occurrence, always forgetting that vipaka is just one brief moment of seeing or hearing and so on. In the same way, what we call a kusala or akusala action involves a multitude of changing cittas, cetasikas and objects experienced. Any nama or rupa can be known, even strong akusala namas. In fact, they have to be known and sati and panna can slip in anytime. Because they are not strong enough and the kilesa (defilements) are so powerful, the latter are bound to follow again. ... K: >Arahantship can happen anytime for eg one of them become > arahant while visiting a barber. However at times it is ridiculous > to think that all activities as satipatthana because unwholesome > activities conditioned a pondering the mind tending to akusala. .... S: Definitely akusala leads to more akusala. No doubt. This is the meaning of accumulation. However, the wise reflecting, considering and understanding at other times, like now, can also condition satipatthana to arise at times we would have considered unlikely. No need to think about a special situation or circumstance, otherwise it’s just thinking of a concept, of a story again and indicates a lack of confidence in satipatthana. Like I mentioned, from the first moment of drowsy waking to the last moment of falling asleep, there are opportunities for satipatthana. Even if we half-wake up or do something bad, the realities are just as ‘real’. You mentioned that you liked the nice account Vince gave of how A.Sujin was so composed all the way to the airport when they were running so late for a flight (unlike a time when I was visibly flustered when the same thing happened to us in his car;-)). However, when this tale was once reported in front of her, she shook her head and suggested this wasn’t the point. The point is whether there is any satipatthana arising regardless of whether one is composed or flustered or observing others’ composure. It always comes back to understanding the cittas. ... K: >I > think we should project an objective way viewpoint and not one > slanting that we can do whatever we like as long as there is > satipatthana - bc there will be situtation it is not possible for > satipatthana. .... S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that ‘we can do whatever we like’ or that it doesn’t matter whether we’re performing ‘good’ or ‘harm’, then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for satipatthana to arise and develop. Even if we’re very sick or becoming senile, there are still opportunities for satipatthana. We read in the texts about men who had just become drunk or committed suicide, like Godhika in Marasamyutta, but who became arahants in the last few moments of life. We’ve been discussing Anathapindika a lot here,approaching the Buddha with the most evil of intentions. There are so many examples. .... > > S: It’s conditioned already like that and like everything else in > > our lives. Given the conditions at that time, it can’t be any other > > way. > > k: that is a lame excuse. Conditions will arise we are know, does > that mean we let it go all the way. .... S: Is there a choice? Doesn’t it depend on whether wise or unwise attention and other wholesome/unwholesome states arise? .... K: >Zealous arise when considering > of dhamma arise. dont be fooled by conditions. .... S: Yes, in this case, conditions for wholesome factors including wholesome chanda (zeal). When you say ‘don’t be fooled by conditions’, it sounds like an idea of ‘self’ sneaking back in. .... > k: that does not mean zeal can dont arise, read more dhammas, > consider them more. When one ponders over kusala, one tend to it. .... S: Agreed. By conditions and without expectations. It doesn’t mean the latent tendencies accumulated over aeons will not condition akusala at any moment, even whilst pondering and reading about dhammas. Like now - kusala or akusala? Metta or aversion? Sati or ignorance? Seeing or hearing? What’s gone is gone. The kusala and akusala performed in the past has gone never to return. But right now, the cittas, cetasikas and rupas can be known, one at a time.....no matter how they are conditioned. KenO, these would all be good topics to discuss together in Bkk if you’re able to join us again. We mentioned to A.Sujin that you might be able to return and she was glad to hear this too. I greatly appreciate all your reflections here and in the other nice post you wrote me after I gave the account of the bones. Please don’t underestimate the possibilities for satipatthana to arise. Definitely it will grow now you have a good theoretical understanding of dhammas. Maybe Mike or KenH or Sukin or someone else can add more. Metta, Sarah “Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up.” Anguttara Nikaya 10:121 ======= 31106 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Develop" what is skillful? (was "abandoning" msg 19836) Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > All excellent stuff again, I think. So much corruption of Dhamma--in > the > modern west, at least--has come simply from misunderstanding of mettaa > and > karu.naa and even upekkhaa. Without knowing the characteristics of > these > it's so easy to make cults of these and mistake them for the goal--so it > seems to me, anyway... .... S:I don't wish to discourage you from chipping in with brief comments which I greatly appeciate, but would you car to elaborate further on what you mean by the misunderstanding and understanding of mettaa etc. I think it would be helpful for all of us....Just a little more detail, please. Metta, Sarah ====== 31107 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aspects_of_Speech-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.10 Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > This sutta puts forward the point that we can think we are good > people, everyone else can think we are good people, but the > defilements lay hiding waiting for an opportunity to arise. A person > can seem even-tempered, calm and gentle until a particular situtation > occurs i.e. the right buttons are pushed, and anger and hatred > erupt. > The story of Lady Vedehika, the five aspects of speech, and the > simile of the saw are great reminders to us all not to assume that > progress towards equanimity is irreversible. .... Yes, this story of Lady Vedehika and Kali has always been a favourite of mine and one I've always reflected on a lot. I think this is also the point about not knowing from outer appearances or certain circumstances. We all have our 'right buttons'. A good antidote for any conceit too when we know that any state can be conditioned whilst there are still the latent tendencies:-) I hadn't realised it was on line. Thanks for that. Metta, Sarah ===== 31108 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 3:31am Subject: Re: New Member dear D. Kolleret > > I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling > from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis > to the Hindus. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Very interesting. I am Roman Catholic from childhood: all activities you can imagine, except Priesthood. This gave me free entry to many other philosophical and Mystic systems - Yoga, Zen and presently Theravada Buddhism ( the REAL and DEFINITIVE Buddhism for all seasons) and Sufi. In my spare time I study Pali Language, Hebrew and Arabic (only for reading texts! it´s necessary years and years of continuing practise to tame out any foreign language!)...but my favourite groups on Yahho are the DSG, Pali and the Naqsbandi Sufi. Sufi traditions are sound and reliable for all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It was the mystics who attracted me. > A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me > to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was > my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. > > Buddhist practice is now the center of my life, though I > also publish a magazine and provide spiritual and > other help to prisoners. I bring mindfulness to my work > as much as possible because I don't want to be far > from practice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Could you tell us more about your magazine ? Are there internet websites about it,links, etc ? -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our > Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful > Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as > possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo is GREAT! Only Nina van Gorkon or perhaps Jon and Sarah can match his "virtuoso" skills on Buddhistic theravada doctrine! welcome, Doret! Mettaya, Ícaro 31109 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah > S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that ‘we can do whatever > we like’ or that it doesn’t matter whether we’re performing ‘good’ or ‘harm’, then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for satipatthana to arise and develop. k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for satipatthana to arise. As I say, lets be objective, we encourage others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of self, but we have to encourage others to avoid aksuala actions because it can condition akusala cittas. Encourage others to avoid akusala does not pertain to one should be purposedly living holy, it encourges how to consider dhamma more as condition arise. S: Even if we’re very sick or becoming senile, there are > still opportunities for satipatthana. We read in the texts about men who had just become drunk or committed suicide, like Godhika in > Marasamyutta, but who became arahants in the last few moments of life. We’ve been discussing Anathapindika a lot here,approaching the Buddha with the most evil of intentions. There are so many examples. > .... k: These are exceptions. Have you seen other examples of monks before the blade end their life become Arahant. Buddha dont condone such actions so let not encourage others to do likewise just because we say we should be natural and others get a false impression and do what they like. Certain actions are no-no. Have you seen Buddha tell his monks let get drunk and hoping conditions will arise to be an Arahant ;-). .... > S: Is there a choice? Doesn’t it depend on whether wise or unwise > attention and other wholesome/unwholesome states arise? > .... k: Yes not mince words like choice or no choice and you know I know it. We have to be careful about attention because wise attentions conditioned too much by naturally thinking and letting it go, akusala will arise. Wise attention cannot be attained without considering dhammas. Wise attention is furthered condition by wise actions, speech etc, it is a cycle. I not suggesting we should burn our candle lights and be vigilant. > .... > S: Yes, in this case, conditions for wholesome factors including > wholesome chanda (zeal). When you say ‘don’t be fooled by conditions’, it sounds like an idea of ‘self’ sneaking back in. > .... k: I think you are so scare of self sneaking in, is it a self that is scare of self :-). That is part of the explanation of lets not be fooled by condition. Let not be fooled by conditions is to me, just because all are conditions, we should be laze around and say: "so be it". When conditions arise, it should be known because accumulations and tendecy are powerful. When conditions arise, it should be known as kusala and akusala. If it is akusala, abandon it by wise attention or consider dhamma. When it is abandon then tendency for akusala actions may not arise. We should be vigilant in that sense. S: KenO, these would all be good topics to discuss together in Bkk if > you’re able to join us again. We mentioned to A.Sujin that you might be able to return and she was glad to hear this too k: She is always glad that people come and learn dhamma. I am just namas and rupas ;-). Tell her that I am starting to listen internally and externally - she will understand what I mean ;-). S: > Please don’t underestimate the possibilities for satipatthana to > arise. k: I never under estimate satipatthana but I also never under estimate tendency and accumulations. Ken O 31110 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:59am Subject: The Bird Nests. Hello to all & esp Christine, When I read this, I thought immediately of you, Chris and I must admit also of J.R.R. Tolkein. I imagined these battles going on between the Devas and Asuras were pretty far out 'skirmishs' - maybe J.R.R. had read the suttas and got his fantastical ideas from them!!! 'At Savatthi, "Bhikkhus, once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the asuras won and the devas were defeated. In defeat the devas withdrew towards the north while the asuras pursued them. Then Sakka, lord of the devas, addressed his charioteer Matali in verse: 'Avoid, O Matali, with your chariot pole The bird nests in the silk-cotton woods; Let's surrender our lives to the asuras Rather than make these birds nestless.' [621] "yes, your lordship," Matali the charioteer replied, and he turned back the chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds. Then, Bhikkhus, it occurred to the asuras: 'Now Sakka's chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds has turned back. The devas will engage in battle with the asuras for a second time.' Stricken by fear, they entered the city of the asuras. In this way, bhikkus, Sakka, lord of the devas, won a victory by means of righteousness itself.' [621] Spk: as they headed towards the silk-cotton woods, the noise of the chariot, the horses, and the standard was like thunderbolts on all sides. The strong supanna birds in the forest fled, but those that were old, ill and too young to fly were terrified and let loose a loud cry. Sakka asked, 'what is that sound?' and Matali told him. Sakka's heart was shaken by compassion and he spoke the verse. While I was typing this, a huge praying/preying mantis landed right beside my keyboard and appeared to be watching me, so I read the story to it and then it flew away. I do enjoy events like this!!! It's a long way to Nibbana, its a long way to go. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 31111 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I believe that A. Sujin is partly correct here. The Buddha > did naturally abide in fruition consciousness, but he would also > abide in deep mental absorption to rid the mind of physical pain. > This was something that he taught all of his noble disciples to do. > I will be quoting from two sections of MN 36 "The Greater Discourse > to Saccaka", and some commentary notes, to illustrate: ... S: Thankyou very much for posting this sutta and the commentary notes. Plenty more for me to consider and understand just a little theoretically. I may come back to it later if I have anything to add. .... > James: Hope this sheds some light on the matter. Sarah, I have > picked a sutta from the "Brahmasamyutta" that I want to present but > it is very long and has many important considerations to different > sections (10 "Kokalika"). I am still pondering how I want to > present it and what I think is important. In other words, I haven't > forgotten my assignment! ;-)) Just still working on it. .... I'll look forward to it - an excellent choice with a very sobering message. Take your time, James. I'm sure it will be beneficial for all of us. Metta, Sarah ======= 31112 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:21am Subject: Bangkok - Shakti Dear Shakti, Hi, sorry to take so long to answer you. Sounds like a great idea. I arrive in Bkk on Apl 14 in the morning, so I'll be able to catch up with you for sure. I think Chris will be in T/land too. I'll write you off-line for more chat. The others usually meet at the Foundation at 2pm, each Sat.except for the first Sat of each month. If I'm wrong about this, someone will surely correct me. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Hi Azita and others, > > I have been away from the computer for months now, due to carpal tunnel and other family issues. So many good posts I'm not sure where to pick up. Thanks to everyone for sharing. > > Azita, I was happy to hear that you would be in Bangkok in April. I'll be in Thailand March 15th thru April 15th. Perhaps we can meet in Bangkok on the 14th or 15th. I'll be staying in the Holiday Inn on Silom Road as usual. What do you think? > > Will folks be meeting at the Foundation on March 20th? What time? > > With metta, Shakti > > > 31113 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63 Hi, Larry (and Icaro) - In a message dated 3/8/04 11:41:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Icaro, > > U Rewata Dhamma has this note on "non-concretely produced matter" in CMA > p. 241: > > "The types of matter in groups (8) - (11) are designated non-concretely > produced matter (anipphannaruupa) because they do not arise directly > from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or > attributes of concretely produced matter. Thus they are not included > among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. Well, being "non-concretely produced" is certainly different from being "non-real". What does the Abhidhamma, itself, say? Is it the same as the CMA, namely "non-concretely produced"? Also, you say that the note excludes them from the paramattha dhammas. If that is so, that just leaves pa~n~natti (which is what I originally contended with regard to space, for example!). ------------------------------------------------------ > > [8 - 11 = space element, 2 intimations, lightness, malleability, > weildiness, production of matter, continuity of matter, decay, > impermanence] > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly "things" like impermanence, production, and decay are pa~n~natti! They are conceptually imputed on sequences of directly apprehended phenomena, and some, like decay, require identification of distinct phenomena over time. To be impermanent, for example, is merely to not remain. A phenomenon appears, and later that phenomenon is not present - and we *say* that the phenomenon had the feature of impermanence. But the actuality is merely that it was, but currently it is not. Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes. Try to distinguish, for example, between happiness being a mental condition and being a mental attribute. Also, for that matter, why is not hardness just as much of a "modality" or "attribute" as lightness? As I see it, none of this holds together. --------------------------------------------------- > > The basic 8 inseparables Nina referred to are earth, water, fire, air, > color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. All rupa is produced in > inseparable groups. There is no space between smell and taste. But there > is space between clusters of inseparable groups. It seems to me all > these clusters have conventional names like hand, foot, mouth, bread, > bicycle. > > Sense organs separate the inseparables. Smell is cognized separately > from taste. Can we say in the cognitive series rupa is delimited by > impermanence? > > Larry > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31114 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi, James - In a message dated 3/9/04 1:08:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James (and Sarah) - > James, I don't see why the opposite of the commentarial > interpretation couldn't be just as plausible: Pleasant feeling > doesn't enter the mind because it is as nothing compared to jhanic > joy or jhanic equanimity, and unpleasant feeling doesn't enter the > mind because of insight into impermanence, impersonality, > insubstantiality etc. For that matter, why couldn't insight be the > answer to both! Also, the terminology of "the body being developed" > is a strange one regardless of how it is interpreted. So I feel that > nothing very definitive has been revealed here. These commentarial > notes are unpersuasive to me. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Okay, you don't have to believe it or anything. I was just offering > the information for your perusal. Honestly, when I first read this > information I was somewhat taken aback myself, but then I considered > deeply why. I realized that I was taken aback because the > information didn't fit in with my preconceived notions of what a > Buddha's and/or an Arahant's mind is like. So, rather than argue > with the commentary or try to find flaws in it, I realized that I > don't really know what the Buddha's mind was like. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'm with you on that! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- > > I don't agree with all commentary notes but when you read the entire > conversation in this sutta, what the Buddha was explaining, the > commentary notes are pretty solid. They fit the context perfectly > of what the Buddha was saying. Have you read the whole sutta? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I only read what you quoted. ----------------------------------------------- I > > also don't understand why you don't like the terminology of `the > body being developed' and characterize it as `strange'. You don't > have a choice in the matter! LOL! That is what the Buddha said. > Rather than just dismiss it as `strange' you should try to > understand what he meant. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The question is of the English wording. What does having a developed body have to do with not reacting with lust and pleasure to pleasant feeling? Having a developed *mind* with respect to material sensations *would* be relevant. The English phrase "having a developed body" would pertain to such things as physical strength, dexterity, etc. I certainly maintain that the phrase is odd in this context. Now it may well be so that the commentary is correct in relating this to having insight - that would make sense, but that would just show that the phrase "having a developed body" does not mean what it seems to mean on the face of it, which makes it "odd". Moreover, insight should be just as forestalling of reaction to unpleasant sensations as to pleasant ones. Thus I find this matter all most unclear. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Look at this subject a different way: You believe that the Buddha > should have been able to eliminate pain with insight; could the > Buddha also eliminate sickness with insight? (Don't ask Deepak > Chopra that question! LOL!). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no certainty as to what the Buddha could or could not eliminate in general. I suspect that he could *not* eliminate pain (unpleasant physical feeling). But he would be free of aversion to that pain. If he were not free of aversion (to pain or anything else) he would not be an arahant, as I understand being an arahant. I do see as plausible the Buddha's entering absorptive states to "recharge his energy," because physical pain, while not causing aversion in the Buddha, would still be physically and mentally debilitating, but I do not entering absorptive states as plausible for the purpose of emotional escape in the case of an arahant. ------------------------------------------------ Aren't there certain things that are > > just intrinsic to the human body that cannot be eliminated with > insight? Just consider that. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't need to consider it. I expect that it is quite so. ---------------------------------------------- The Buddha didn't have any pain > > medication so he would enter mental absorption to keep the > tranquility of his mind in the face of extreme pain. Makes perfect > sense to me and doesn't reveal any weakness or dosa. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what that would reveal, but I think it is a matter of some importance. ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31115 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/9/04 3:23:37 AM Central Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: S:>.....as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is > essential > for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right > understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. ... Jack: > I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper understanding of an object is necessary before one does samadhi/vipassana meditation? ..... S: Yes, I think that when there is right understanding of how an object of samatha conditions calm and other wholesome states at this moment or when there is right understanding of a nama or rupa, then there are conditions for samatha and vipassana to develop without requiring any idea of ‘doing’ anything. To give a simple example for both: [snip] S: By reflecting and understanding the quality of metta and developing it when there are opportunities, like now as we speak to each other but without any attachment or wishing to be ‘the person with metta’, there can be conditions for the development of calm with metta as object. Without a clearer and clearer understanding of the quality of metta, it cannot be developed or known. Sarah, My experience is that following instructions in a metta meditation such as, "Think of a loved one. Get in touch with that feeling. May they be at peace...." is how one learns about metta. One can only learn this experientially. Are you saying one has to understand metta conceptually before one can experience it? >b) Sound as an object of vipassana. Likewise, vipassana(insight) or satipatthana cannot be developed without a clearer and clearer understanding of the objects to be known as they appear at this moment. So now, there are many sense door and mind door processes, but are any namas or rupas understood? We think we hear the sounds of birds, or fans or clicking of the keyboard but this is an illusion of subjectivity I think Howard would say;-) In reality, there are just different experiences of hearing, seeing, smelling and so on and the objects, the rupas, which are heard, seen and so on. Because the sense experiences are immediately followed by thinking and other mind-door activity, we’re left with the illusion of hearing the key-board and a ‘self’ that does this hearing. Therefore, whether we sit on a cusion or read a book or go for a hike, it is the clear understanding which will be the main factor in the development of satipatthana as I understand, rather than the cushion or book or hill.< Again, I'm not sure what you mean by understand. To me, one learns that which you mention above by observing closely. Instructions such as, observe the difference between rupa and nama, are useful but not necessary. If you look carefully you could discover this by yourself without this instruction. I think you would disagree, right? .... Jack: > I also am not sure what you mean by proper understanding of an object. If one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what > does one have to understand about it before using it in mental development? .... S: A very good and difficult question;-) It is the right attention and other 'rights' rather than the breath which will make the difference. Just concentrating on breath or any other object in itself, will not make the consciousness wholesome. Why should it? If I was a scientist and trying to find a cure for cancer, I would spend a lot of time observing how cancer operates and how different potential cures affect it. When I meditate, I spend a lot of time seeing how the physical sensation of my breath affects my mental processes, how the physical and mental aspects of each breath are selfless, not ultimately pleasant and temporary, etc. Observing the breath alone can let me know/experience the presence of suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and paths to alleviate suffering. A scientist just looking into a microscope without trying to really see what is happening is not going to do anyone any good. My looking at my breath during meditation without trying to see what is happening is also not doing me any good. I still don't understand you answer to my question of > If one's object of attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what does one have to understand about it before using it in mental development?< ....>At a most elementary level, I find it useful to reflect on how life and all we hold dear and important depends on this very in and out-breath. Without breath there’d be no life at all. Even a little wise reflection like this can be a condition for calm. However, I don’t believe it’s given as an object that can easily condition calm with wise reflection in daily life at all, unlike metta, death or the qualities of the Buddha, for example, which are easier to understand, I think. < 31116 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi, Jack and Sarah - In a message dated 3/9/04 11:31:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > > In a message dated 3/9/04 3:23:37 AM Central Standard Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S:>.....as I read the texts, wisdom (panna) is > >essential > >for both kinds of bhavana from the very outset. Without the right > >understanding of the particular object, there cannot be any development. > ... > Jack: >I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that proper > understanding of an object is necessary before one does samadhi/vipassana > meditation? > ..... > S: Yes, I think that when there is right understanding of how an object of > samatha conditions calm and other wholesome states at this moment or when > there is right understanding of a nama or rupa, then there are conditions > for samatha and vipassana to develop without requiring any idea of ‘doing’ > anything. > > To give a simple example for both: > > [snip] > S: By reflecting and understanding the quality of metta and developing it > when there are opportunities, like now as we speak to each other but > without any attachment or wishing to be ‘the person with metta’, there can > be conditions for the development of calm with metta as object. Without a > clearer and clearer understanding of the quality of metta, it cannot be > developed or known. > > Sarah, > > My experience is that following instructions in a metta meditation such as, > "Think of a loved one. Get in touch with that feeling. May they be at > peace...." is how one learns about metta. One can only learn this > experientially. Are > you saying one has to understand metta conceptually before one can > experience > it? > ============================= I think that knowing in advance what to look for is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it may enliven the attention and make it less likely to miss important events and connections. On the other hand, one often tends to *seem* to see what one expects to see, and the danger of substituting conceptual knowledge, belief, and imagined phenomena for actual experience is a real one. It seem to me that if one follows prescribed behavior (prescribed by the Buddha), and examines whatever arises with calm, non-reactive, non-selective, and intent attention, then what is actual will, in varying degrees, as conditions determine, appear and be directly known. And the more regular and the more correct the practice of mindful, non-reactive attention is carried out, the more responsive the mind will become. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31117 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/9/04 11:12:40 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I think that knowing in advance what to look for is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it may enliven the attention and make it less likely to miss important events and connections. On the other hand, one often tends to *seem* to see what one expects to see, and the danger of substituting conceptual knowledge, belief, and imagined phenomena for actual experience is a real one. It seem to me that if one follows prescribed behavior (prescribed by the Buddha), and examines whatever arises with calm, non-reactive, non-selective, and intent attention, then what is actual will, in varying degrees, as conditions determine, appear and be directly known. And the more regular and the more correct the practice of mindful, non-reactive attention is carried out, the more responsive the mind will become. Howard, You said what I meant much better than I did. I notice that happens a lot. I especially liked your reference to prescribed behavior. jack 31118 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:35am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 08 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has been sitting in meditation. As he is well calm, he can see all dhamma that arise at the very present and he sees clearly their passing away. He has made an effort while he is doing meditation. He knows that effort or viriya arises and it persists and it falls away. He is cultivating dhamma and he is doing bhavana that is cultivation of kusala or good deed. He knows that cetana or volition arises and it persists and it falls away. He is meditating. He is doing breathing meditation. As he is well calm, he can see that a contact arises while he knows that object of meditation. He knows the persistence of contact and he also cognizes it falls away. While he is well concentrated he notices his status that he is well concentrated. He realizes that there arise a concentration or ekaggata. While it persists he knows that it persists. And when it falls away he notices that it passes away. When he is sitting he sees clearly that his mind exists. He knows that existence arises and its persistence. It is mental life or jivitindriya. When it falls away he notes that it passes away. While he is doing meditation he recognizes that he is attending at his nostril. Actually he is not controlling anything but attention or manasikara arises. When attention persists he knows that it persists and when it passes away he recognizes its disappearence. He is doing breathing meditation. He knows it touches. Touch falls away. He konws it touches. The touch falls away. He knows it touches. The touch passes away. And again he knows it touches and it falls away. He knows each arising citta is accompanied by initial application or vitakka. Vitakka is making consciousness at touch here in breathing meditation. That initial application arises, persists, and falls away. He knows all the way round. He is doing breathing meditation and he is repeatedly attending at nostril and he would go no where but at nostril. It touches, it falls away. It touches and it falls away. Consciousness is being accompanied by that sustained application or vicara. Vicara arises, persists, and falls away. He is well calm and he feel he is well suffused. He has an interest at the object of meditation that is at nostril. As he is calm he feels joy and that joy persists momentarily and later becomes flood of joy and thrilling happen and his whole body is suffused with joy. He knows that joy or piti arises, persists, and falls away. He has been meditating because he just wish to calm down. At each moment his wish makes him to continue to meditate. he knows that wish or chanda arises, it persists and it falls away. He is well determined in his practice and now doing his meditation. At each moment he sees that determination arises and it immediately passes away after persisting for a while. This determination or adhimokkha just arises, persists, and falls away. He notices that he is quite confident while practising and notices that saddha arises, persists, and passes away. He is very mindful and he would not depart from his object of meditation. He recognizes that mindfulness or sati arises, persists, and falls away. He has been meditating. he is ashame of to be frequently distracted and deconcentrated so he well builds up concentration. he does not do any akusala even in his mind. He knows that shame or hirika arises, persists, and falls away. He is afraid to be contaminated with akusala thought while he is doing breathing meditation. He realizes that fear or ottappa arises, persists, and falls away. He also knows that he has been in a mind state of unhurting in nature. He recognizes that adosa ( metta ) arises, persists, and falls away. at the same time he also notices that there is no greediness instead there is alobha and it arises, persists, and falls away. As he is well calm and well concentrated he well notices that his mind is well balanced and he cognizes that there arises a balancing mind or tatramajjhattata, it persists, and falls away. While he is meditating he also notices that there arise tranquilities both of mind and all mental factors ( cittapassaddhi and kayapassaddhi )and he sees that all are working effectively as they all are well calm and tranquilized. He recognizes that consciousness and all mind conditions become lighter and lighter as he is calmer and calmer. He recognizes that lightness of both mind and mental factors ( cittalahuta and kayalahuta ) arise, persist, and fall away. At the very same time, he also notices that mind and all mental factors become soft, tender, plastic and notes that plasticity of both mind and mental factors ( cittamuduta and kayamuduta ) arise, persist, and fall away. There are also familiarity of mind and mental factors to the object ( cittapagunnata and kayapagunnata ). He notices that they arise, persist and fall away. There also are workability or adaptability of mind and mental factors ( cittakammannata and kayakammannata ). He recognizes they arise, persist, and fall away. As he is well calm all his mind and mental factors are straight forward and they are upright. He recognizes that rectitude of both mind and mental facots ( cittujukata and kayujukata ) arise, persist, and fall away. He recognizes that these mind conditioners or mental factors arise, persist and fall away. They condition the mind and they are not him or they are not his. There is no trace of self or atta in them. All these are just sankhara and they are just aggregate called clinging aggregate of fabrications or sankharupadanakkhandha. He knows when they arise, persist and fall away. They are not him or his and there is no trace of him in them. All are anatta. He sees dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31119 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Eznir, That is a very good one. See below. op 08-03-2004 08:39 schreef Eznir op eznir2003@y...: > I consider every person I meet a dhamma teacher to me. Specially > those who provoke the negative kinds of feelings you state above. > They seem to say "Look, I've aroused these states of anger in you! > You have not taken what is heard as only the heard". The same can be > said about positive feelings too. N: This made me think of my father who grumbles and complains on account of what is in his imagination. As I mentioned here already, a friend spoke about her father who was actually , always disparaging. But her mother said: your father is your teacher, do not forget. And can you ad about positive feelings? You mean clinging? I remember now a sutta: lobha is our teacher, we always follow what achariya says. Or: it is one's coresident pupil, it always follows us, wherever we go. We need more examples from daily life, Dhamma is not theory. On another list I had made an interpretation of a Pali text which was approved of. I was mighty pleased, but I could not help laughing at my conceit and lobha. In mockery I patted my back. I know, also laughing is lobha. Because of listening one can notice it. Formerly I would not even know about it. But this is interesting: see how piti (joy, enthusiasm or zest) and somanassa (pleasant feeling) surge up so strongly and even before we realize it. Uncontrollably. But I have to use this term carefully. I know, sati and panna can do their work. As Rob K wrote: < as an object of insight any moment is perfect because each moment is conditioned to be that way.> I heard on tape that dosa can harm others, it is more harmful, and that lobha may not be so harmful to others but harder to eradicate. I could not trace the sutta. Nina. 31120 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not too much Hi Larry, op 09-03-2004 02:11 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I want to go all the way to the end of Visuddhimagga. I'm sure Jim will > be back in the spring. N: Good! Ten years or so? No problem. I have contact with Jim all the time. He has his own pali study list, for subtle points. About grammar, syntaxis. Nina. 31121 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space, separates what? Hi Larry, op 09-03-2004 05:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > U Rewata Dhamma has this note on "non-concretely produced matter" in CMA > p. 241: > > "The types of matter in groups (8) - (11) are designated non-concretely > produced matter (anipphannaruupa) because they do not arise directly > from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or > attributes of concretely produced matter. Thus they are not included > among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." N: I do not agree with the last sentence: they are included among paramattha dhammas, see previous mail. L: The basic 8 inseparables Nina referred to are earth, water, fire, air, > color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. All rupa is produced in > inseparable groups. There is no space between smell and taste. But there > is space between clusters of inseparable groups. It seems to me all > these clusters have conventional names like hand, foot, mouth, bread, > bicycle. N: Your last sentence: the clusters or groups are extremely small. What you call hand is constituted by innumerable groups or clusters arising and falling away. As I see it, clusters do not have conventional names such as hand, etc. L: Sense organs separate the inseparables. Smell is cognized separately > from taste. N: When we speak of one group comprising smell, taste and other rupas, only one of them can be experienced through the relevant doorway and that does not mean that there is any separation of the rupas of one group that accompany the rupa which is actually experienced. It could not be, because they all have a function, as foundation, as cohesion (holding together), etc. L: Can we say in the cognitive series rupa is delimited by > impermanence? N: No. It arises and falls away, but it lasts as long as 17 moments of citta so that it can be experienced by a series of cittas arising in a process. Nina. 31122 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, concept or reality? Types of objects. Hi Howard and Michael (at end, something meaty), op 09-03-2004 04:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > In a message dated 3/8/04 9:21:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, > icarofranca@y... writes: > >> Space - akasa - is classified as a "non-real" Paramattha Dhamma >> ========================== > And what, pray tell, is that? (Besides being a contradiction in terms! > ;-) N: Howard, I think that I understand what Icaro says. He means: it is not concrete matter. But nevertheless Paramattha Dhamma. See my mails to Larry where I quoted suttas. You may still find it difficult to see space as paramattha dhamma, I understand. We spoke about this in Bgk. It can be known by insight, but not everyone will know all rupas. When we consider the seven rupas that appear all the time in daily life through the senses, we can have some beginning understanding of what rupa is: that which is a reality that does not experience anything. Apart from thinking of object and subject, can hardness be experienced without having to call it anything? That is a beginning. When we can develop direct understanding of rupa, it will also be clearer what subtle rupas are. I do not know whether this is of any help. There is also space as a meditation subject of samatha, a nimitta. This is another type of object. Now the meaty part. There are different types of objects: objects that are 1. paritta, trifling or insignificant, objects that are not those of jhana or of lokuttara citta. 2. objects of jhana (mahaggata).3. object that is appanaa, attainment, nibbana for lokuttara citta. Then there is one class that is not among these three: called: or (navattabbarammana). Among these is the nimitta experienced by the citta developing samatha. And also when a citta with panna but not lokuttara citta experiences nibbana, this object is also a not so classifiable object in that case. This happens shortly before lokuttara cittas arise. Or afterwards, in reviewing nibbana. Then nibbana is not an attainment object. We discussed in Bgk subtle points and this taught me to be very careful with the word concept. There is much more to it. We also discussed past objects, which are not concepts but dhammas. The dhamma of the past can also be a not so classifiable object. Rebirth-consciousness can have past, present or not so classifiable object. We also have to remember that concept can be a term denoting a paramattha dhamma. Thus, when saying: there are just paramattha dhammas or concepts we have to be careful. We have to differentiate more. We went over texts of Dhammasangani, Vis. and Expositor. The English transl Dhsgn. omits these parts. It omits too many things. Rhys Davids may not have understood certain texts. Michael, please, do not go, we shall miss you. Nina. 31123 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Larry, op 09-03-2004 03:03 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not > self. Is it so because space is actually 'edge', a characteristic of > matter? N: Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It is also called an element, dhatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in the case of all 28 rupas. It is rupa, thus, it has the three characteristics. And see below, the suttas. L: There is a slight discrepancy between the PTS (?) translation from MN 140 Nina gave and B. ~Nanamoli's: PTS: "And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth..." ~N: "What is the internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth..." L: The first one has "derived therefrom" and the second one has "clung-to". N: It is said: , or, clung to (upadi.n.na): namely, produced by kamma, but in a wider sense referring to all rupas of the body. These two, derived from an individual, or, clung to, amount to the same. They are called internal and individual. N: B.B. has: At the end of this definition we read: Would this be said of a concept? It is rupa, an element, not a concept. Going to the Pali of Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: ajjhattika: internal, paccatta.m, belonging to oneself, but used figuratively of course. See the end: they should be realized as non-self. Thus, as rupa, having the three characteristics. "And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal space element? That, internally, and individually, is space, void, and clung to, namely: the cavity of the ear, the orifice of the nose, the opening of the mouth, and whereby (one) swallows what is tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten, and where (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten remains, and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten passes out of the body lower down, or whatever else internally, and individually is space, void, sky, empty, an opening, hollow, untouched by flesh and blood, and clung to. This, Rahula, is called the internal space element. But that very internal space element and that external space element are simply space element. Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right wisdom just as it is, the mind becomes dispassionate towards (and) detaches (itself) from the space element." Nina. 31124 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:48am Subject: Engaged Buddhism Dear Friends, So far I have observed that engaged Buddhism is practiced only by some Zen Buddhists. I have been told that Buddha did not advise actually entering the social struggle, e.g. against the death penalty, against war, etc. Is it true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because they focus their attention only inward on liberation? With metta, Doret 31125 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member On 3/8/04 10:35 PM, "Sarah" wrote: Dear Sarah, > >> A Theravadin monk I met accidentally introduced me >> to Buddhism and gave me books to study. He was >> my biggest inspiration. He was everything he preached. > .... > S: This is very interesting. May I ask who the monk was and where you met > him? I live in a California redwood forest, USA. There is no home mail delivery so I go to the post office every day. One day I walked into the entry way and there was a Buddhist monk waiting for his mail. I had been looking for spiritual help for the 500 prisoners who also receive my magazine. I thought I would ask him.. It turned out he had gone into prisons in Southeast Asia to teach meditation practice. I gave him a magazine and showed him the Moslem, Hindu, and Jewish help offered, but no Buddhism. He lived in a small hut in the forest near my house and had access to a computer. Soon he sent me a meditation practice that prisoners could write for. (I have sent several hundred since then). His name is Ven. Chutiko. He and Ven. Mongkone (who was once his student) have now established a temple in Massachusetts where there is a Cambodian settlement. They also have a wondrous website called the Great Wisdom Center that you might want to explore (http://www.greatwisdomcenter.org). Thank you for the welcome and the road signs. With metta, Doret 31126 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hello Betty, I thought I would just throw in a small interjection on your comment on Abhidhamma. Your story of these monks sounds very nice. I am sure these monks are very advanced if they have found, as I have a simple house holder in the ghetto, that jhana is required for insight. The deeper the jhana the more and clearer the insight. So, it is doubtful that monks of this caliber cannot understand Abhidhamma. They may feel the same way about Abhidhamma that I do, which is Abhidhamma seems like the Marvel Comic Books version of the Sutta Pitaka. Why bother with sensational stories of gods and secret teachings? The historic Buddha said he did not leave anything out, and he gave no secret teaching. In 30 years of meditation, study and reflection, I have found no reason to believe otherwise. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four jhanas slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." In a message dated 3/8/04 12:17:46 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << In addition, I think you are correct in asserting that the Abhidhamma is not studied. In fact, most monks shy away from it because they don't understand it (my apologies to any monks on the list who do indeed study Abhidhamma). Years ago, when I had gotten a copy of Nina's ADL, and showed it to monks at Wat Bavorn (this was a few years before my son was born; he is now 30), they actually dissuaded me from reading it! >> 31127 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism In a message dated 3/9/04 12:54:00 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... writes: Is it true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because they focus their attention only inward on liberation? Doret, No. Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to Peace and another link to www.bpf.com. jack 31128 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: The Bird Nests. Hello Azita, all, I hadn't read this sutta before - thank you! :-) A thousand horse- power chariot!! I've heard that Sakka's fuel bills were horrendous .... and rumour tells us of lots of problems with the 'exhaust' systems :-) I think it is 'praying' mantis - from the posture they take while considering who their next victim will be :-) .. lucky you were bigger. In case anyone is looking for this sutta, the reference is: Samyutta Nikaya I The Book with Verses (Sagaathaavagga) 11. Sakkasamyutta p. 325 (Bodhi) I have a little trouble with the Ven. Bodhi's use of the word 'righteousness' - wondering what may be an alternative phrase other than 'victory by means of righteousness itself'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Hello to all & esp Christine, > > When I read this, I thought immediately of you, Chris and I must > admit also of J.R.R. Tolkein. I imagined these battles going on > between the Devas and Asuras were pretty far out 'skirmishs' - maybe > J.R.R. had read the suttas and got his fantastical ideas from them!!! > > 'At Savatthi, "Bhikkhus, once in the past the devas and the asuras > were arrayed for battle. In that battle the asuras won and the devas > were defeated. In defeat the devas withdrew towards the north while > the asuras pursued them. Then Sakka, lord of the devas, addressed his > charioteer Matali in verse: > > 'Avoid, O Matali, with your chariot pole > The bird nests in the silk-cotton woods; > Let's surrender our lives to the asuras > Rather than make these birds nestless.' [621] > > "yes, your lordship," Matali the charioteer replied, and he > turned back the chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds. > > Then, Bhikkhus, it occurred to the asuras: 'Now Sakka's > chariot with its team of a thousand thoroughbreds has turned back. > The devas will engage in battle with the asuras for a second time.' > Stricken by fear, they entered the city of the asuras. In this way, > bhikkus, Sakka, lord of the devas, won a victory by means of > righteousness itself.' > > [621] Spk: as they headed towards the silk-cotton woods, the noise > of the chariot, the horses, and the standard was like thunderbolts on > all sides. The strong supanna birds in the forest fled, but those > that were old, ill and too young to fly were terrified and let loose > a loud cry. Sakka asked, 'what is that sound?' and Matali told him. > Sakka's heart was shaken by compassion and he spoke the verse. > > While I was typing this, a huge praying/preying mantis landed > right beside my keyboard and appeared to be watching me, so I read > the story to it and then it flew away. I do enjoy events like this!!! > > It's a long way to Nibbana, its a long way to go. > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 31129 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 11:41am Subject: Abhidhamma/Jeff was (Re: the self. . . how?/Jack) Hello Jeff, Could you expand on this statement a little? Maybe give some us examples in support of it ... Jeff said: "They may feel the same way about Abhidhamma that I do, which is Abhidhamma seems like the Marvel Comic Books version of the Sutta Pitaka. Why bother with sensational stories of gods and secret teachings?" metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: 31130 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member On 3/9/04 3:31 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: Dear Ícaro, > >> >> I am deeply committed to Buddhism after traveling >> from no religion to Roman Catholicism to the Sufis >> to the Hindus. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Very interesting. I am Roman Catholic . . . This gave me free > entry to many other philosophical and Mystic systems - Yoga, Zen and > presently Theravada Buddhism ( the REAL and DEFINITIVE Buddhism for > all seasons) and Sufi. . . . Sufi traditions are sound and reliable for all. I agree that Catholicism can be an introduction to other systems. I started with St. John of the Cross, which prepared me for Hafiz and Rumi in Sufi literature, for the Bhagavad Gita, and for Zen. > > Could you tell us more about your magazine ? Are there internet > websites about it,links, etc ? My quarterly magazine is The Justice Xpress, a low-budget (printed on cheap paper), social-political-environmental publication. It is politically left of center. When it was called The North Coast Xpress, it was on Internet until Fall 2001. A battered remnant is at http://thunder.sonic.net/~doretk/ The Justice Xpress is not online. Prisoners are my main concern and they need a printed publication.. The magazine is in its 12th year, and I don't know what to do. I think of it as a window on the world for prisoners and a window on prisoners for the world. The final 13 pages are written by or for prisoners and offer spiritual, legal and other help. (The current one has an article about a prisoner by a Soto Zen priest.) Six ads offer free Buddhist help, one of them a Karma book. That is the problem. I would like to quit the magazine, but that means sacrificing assistance for prisoners on death rows around the country, for those in solitary confinement, and for those who are tortured in this hidden world. I finally decided that the next issue would be the last one, then had second thoughts. Right now I don't know what to do. (If anyone would like to see a copy and give advice, let me know.) With metta, Doret -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I am here because Htoo Naing posted this link to our >> Buddhist Wellness Group. He has posted helpful >> Buddhist guides that I have followed as closely as >> possible. As I said, I consider myself a learner. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo is GREAT! Only Nina van Gorkon or perhaps Jon and Sarah can > match his "virtuoso" skills on Buddhistic theravada doctrine! > > welcome, Doret! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 31131 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dispelling Common Misconceptions regarding absorption (Jhana) Hello Sarah, Htoo, I read lots of words and posturing however none of it is very convincing. How is it that none of you have resorted to a single quote from the Sutta pitaka as a support for your claims? Dispelling Common Misconceptions regarding absorption (Jhana) Concentration leads to absorption and insight, which leads to cessation. There is no other way. Maha-satipatthana Sutta, DN 22 "And what is right {absorption (sama-samadhi)}? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana)... (through fourth jhana). Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." Samadhanga Sutta AN V. 28 "He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha) born from withdrawal." Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four absorptions (jhanas) slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." Jhanasamyutta, SN 34 "Therein, bhikkhus, the meditator who is skilled both in concentration regarding absorption (jhana) and in attainment regarding absorption (jhana) is the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of these four kinds of meditators." What more do you need? Or is it to feel self importance? Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/8/04 12:17:46 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Concentration or jhana or absorption in simple form is not Samma Samadhi... The whole story reveals that Jhana in pure form is useless and even dangerous because there is possibility of rebirth in immaterial abode where there is no chance to see and hear The Live Buddha and His Dhamma. >> 31132 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Hi Doret, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > They also have a wondrous website called the Great Wisdom Center that you > might want to explore (http://www.greatwisdomcenter.org). > > Thank you for the welcome and the road signs. > > With metta, > Doret OH WOW! The pictures on this site of Phra Mangkone with the BlackFoot Indian Nation are priceless!! The dichotomy of the ancient cultures together like that, from separate lands, is very rare indeed! Thank you so much for sharing!!! :-)) Metta, James 31133 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Nina, Is there any commentary for space, or should we go on to the lightness triad? Larry 31134 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Abhidhamma/Jeff was (Re: the self. . . how?/Jack) Christine wrote: > Hello Jeff, > > Could you expand on this statement a little? Maybe give some us > examples in support of it ... > > Jeff said: "They may feel the same way about Abhidhamma that I do, > which is Abhidhamma seems like the Marvel Comic Books version of the > Sutta Pitaka. Why bother with sensational stories of gods and secret > teachings?" Hello Jeff, and all. I will add a question to Christine's. I suppose this debate has been going on awhile here, but I don't know why Jeff feels such a compulsion to justify jhanas to people who practice without them, or attack Abdhidhamma to people who appreciate it. Clearly he sees their views as wrong understanding, but hoping to eliminate all the wrong understanding in the world is a hopeless project. It also reminds me of the fuss over "The Last Temptation of Christ" some years back. If people have true faith, why are they so bothered by the depiction of their faith by non-believers? Of course, there is a sincere apsiration that all come to know the benefits of jhanas, but sometimes it doesn't feel that way to me. It feels like dojo yaburi - bursting into another tradtion's dojo (practice place in martial arts) to try to prove that your way is better. As James pointed out, healthy debate does lead to deeper understanding. But where does the point comes when people agree to disagree and let it go at that? If I'm not mistaken, Jeff has a group dedicated to jhanas practice. I don't understand why he need to spam another group in which the founding practice (that of A Sujin) is not in line with jhanas. (I'm quite certain that the msg from Jeff "Common Misunderstandings..." was sent simulataneously to several groups, but if I'm mistaken, my apologies.) I have been wanting to ask this question, and now it's done. I won't keep coming back to it, just as I won't keep coming back to the things I said to James. Story over. (With a quick apology to James and all for the nasty tone I used. That won't happen again.) I'm new here, so still learning about who comes here, and why. Metta, Phil 31135 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Jack, Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) I know these articles can't make decisions for me, but I can add them to the mix when I have to decide. I have been wavering between continuing my magazine and assisting others, on one hand, and leading a more contemplative life, on the other hand. The first is on behalf of others; the second is what I really want to do for myself. Thank you again for the references. Metta, Doret On 3/9/04 11:01 AM, "Jackhat1@a..." wrote: > In a message dated 3/9/04 12:54:00 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... > writes: > Is it > true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because > they focus their attention only inward on liberation? > Doret, > > No. > > Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to Peace > and another link to www.bpf.com. > > jack > > 31136 From: christhedis Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anyone in Bangkok? Thanks a lot Sarah.. I think Sukin and Betty both emailed me. Really nice. :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Chris, > > --- christhedis wrote: > Hi there everyone, > > > > Wondering if anyone is currently living or visiting here in Bangkok, or > > if > > there are any groups for meditation, discussion, or whatever. I'm in > > Bangkok and interested to meet fellow Dhamma friends, so if anyone > > knows anything, please let me know. > .... > Sukin & Betty from the list live in Bangkok and I'm sure one of them will > contact you and arrange to meet/take you to a discussion. If not, let me > know off-list and I'll give you an email add. > > Shakti will be there later this month (see dates in her recent post). > Azita will be there in April (ditto for dates) and a few others of us are > still considering whether it's possible to meet them there just after > Easter(depending on work, costs etc for us). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 31137 From: dharmajim Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 5:49pm Subject: Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Good Friends: I'm new here. The discussion is very helpful. I'm not quite up to speed on a lot of the Pali terms, but I like an environment where they are used enough that I can begin to get a feel for them. I wanted to make a brief comment on Abhidhamma, inspired by some of the thoughts recently shared; some of them critical. For years I didn't understand Abhidhamma or its purpose. It seemed so obscure. I didn't understand the method either. I have a background in western philosophy. A guiding principle in that tradition is to use as few concepts as possible; but Abhidhamma seemed to generate an incredible number of categories and I couldn't grasp the reason for doing this. About two years ago, after some 30 years of practice, I decided to try again and read the Dhammasangani (in translation, I don't know Pali). Nyanaponika's Introduction was helpful in getting me past initial discomforts. What amazed me was that this time I found it beautiful, scintillating, even lyrical. I was amazed at the meticulousness, the wealth of detail and insight. It is one of the great monuments to human consciousness. In some ways I think of it as similar to something like Euclid's "Elements"; only the scope of the subject matter is much broader and the detail is much finer. The comparison I am making has to do with rigor and drawing out implications in a systematic way. So for some of us it takes a long time for our minds to open to Abhidhamma. If I hadn't practiced regularly for those decades I would not have had the patience to absorb a small part of its beauty. Best wishes, Dharmajim 31138 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member On 3/9/04 1:50 PM, "buddhatrue" wrote: Dear James, Thank you for responding and sharing your pleasure. Metta, Doret > Hi Doret, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: >> They also have a wondrous website called the Great Wisdom Center > that you >> might want to explore (http://www.greatwisdomcenter.org). >> >> Thank you for the welcome and the road signs. >> >> With metta, >> Doret > > OH WOW! The pictures on this site of Phra Mangkone with the > BlackFoot Indian Nation are priceless!! The dichotomy of the > ancient cultures together like that, from separate lands, is very > rare indeed! Thank you so much for sharing!!! :-)) > > Metta, James 31139 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Dear Andrew. Thank you for your kind mail. Please don't take a sabbatical!!! We need you here. I would like to hear also your report on the Cooran weekend you will have soon. Maybe you can skip some mails when they are too many. Nina. op 09-03-2004 10:25 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > As a matter of fact, I will be taking a break from my > various email groups for a while. Hope to catch up with you all some > time in the future. 31140 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 9:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Larry, We also discussed this before. See: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20569.html I wrote: >...........to quote from CMA p241. Guide to #4 (B.Bodhi): “they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter but existas modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter.” B.Bodhi continues to add that they are not paramattha dhammas, but I checked and can’t find this in the commentary (to Abhidhammattha Sangaha). I think it would be more accurate to say they are not paramattha dhammas *with sabhaava*, but they are listed among the asabhaava rupas, hence paramattha. Much as been written before about space, bodily and vocal intimation and the continuity, decay and impermanence of rupas as examples of these.< Space is therefore a reality indirectly originating from kamma and other causes with the kalapas of rupas it separates. It also has characteristics (lakkhana), even though it's asabhaava. Of course, cavity or space is also used as a concept (eg cavity in the ear etc) in the texts, but it is pointing to a reality. Whenever ‘space’ comes up, I have more questions than answers. I’m glad therefore to read your other qus and Nina’s responses. I think many inaccurate comments are written on this very subtle rupa. Metta, Sarah ====== 31141 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah and Ken O, Thanks for prompting me to join in, Sarah. At the moment, I am feeling particularly sorry for myself – I had two teeth extracted this morning and the anaesthetic has just worn off. Writing this post might be just the distraction I need :-) Ouch! :-( When there is physical pain (conventionally speaking), it does seem to cross the boundaries of body consciousness into seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting consciousness, doesn't it? In the same way, lobha, dosa, moha etc., seem to extend out from the moments in which they arise and occupy entire courses of action. I know you are aware of these things, Ken and so the point you are making, in this discussion with Sarah, must be a finer one – but I can't quite grasp it. It has been suggested to me that my discussion style might be a little extreme (a little over the top); is Sarah making the same mistake? If so, I am in good company :-) ----------------------- k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for satipatthana to arise. -------------------------------- I wonder what you mean. In what situations (again conventionally speaking) is it impossible for satipatthana to arise? Obviously, you are not referring to the exact same moment in which an akusala dhamma arises. So you must be saying that some dhammas cannot be known – in the citta process that immediately follows them -- by right understanding. -------------------------- KO: > As I say, lets be objective, we encourage others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of self, but we have to encourage others to avoid aksuala actions because it can condition akusala cittas. Encourage others to avoid akusala does not pertain to one should be purposedly living holy, it encourges how to consider dhamma more as condition arise. --------------- As someone who has trouble seeing the boundary between theory and practice, it is not surprising that I am missing your point. We can develop understanding of the benefits of kusala and the dangers of akusala (as Sarah helps us do) – what other way is there by which we can avoid the one and condition the other? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > > > S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that `we can do whatever > > we like' or that it doesn't matter whether we're performing `good' > or `harm', then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never > suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for > satipatthana to arise and develop. > > 31142 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:20pm Subject: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Group, Ajahn Jose has given me permission to put his post on dsg telling of the state of his health. Some of you may already know, but I am sure it will come as a great shock to others. On 24 February, Ajahn wrote to us to say: "Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. While I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the stones". On 9 March, Ajahn wrote to Suan: "Last week when I was in hospital for three weeks, when they took the kidney stones the surgeon took pictures of my kidney. The bad news is that my left kidney is complete riddle with cancer so next Tuesday the 16th of March they are removing the left kidney to prevent the spread of the cancer to the right kidney. I will be at John James Memorial Private Hospital in Canberra. Hope to see you. Ajahn Jose." I know you will be thinking of him with metta and karuna now and especially on the 16th. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31143 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:24pm Subject: Re: Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Dear Dharmajim, Thank you so much for writing this. I have found it a beautifully written, gentle and inspiring post. At times, there does seem to be an anti-abhidhamma sentiment on dsg from some posters and I believe that we are all entitled to our 'all embracing net of views', and some of the discussion does become 'lively'. In this way, I learn, otherwise I am stuck in my own thoughts and they're murky enuff at the best of times. My introduction to Buddhism was via Abhidhamma discussion which centred around 'this present moment' as this is the only moment we ever have, and this is the only moment that we can ever be aware of. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dharmajim" wrote: > Good Friends: > > I'm new here. The discussion is very helpful. I'm not quite up to > speed on a lot of the Pali terms, but I like an environment where > they are used enough that I can begin to get a feel for them. > IMO, a great attitude, as I believe that the Pali terms used here are often quite difficult if not impossible, to translate precisely into English or any language, I would think. > I wanted to make a brief comment on Abhidhamma, inspired by some of > the thoughts recently shared; some of them critical. For years I > didn't understand Abhidhamma or its purpose. It seemed so obscure. > I didn't understand the method either. I have a background in > western philosophy. A guiding principle in that tradition is to use > as few concepts as possible; but Abhidhamma seemed to generate an > incredible number of categories and I couldn't grasp the reason for > doing this. > > About two years ago, after some 30 years of practice, I decided to > try again and read the Dhammasangani (in translation, I don't know > Pali). Nyanaponika's Introduction was helpful in getting me past > initial discomforts. What amazed me was that this time I found it > beautiful, scintillating, even lyrical. I was amazed at the > meticulousness, the wealth of detail and insight. It is one of the > great monuments to human consciousness. > The thought has occurred to me on several occasions that the Abhidhamma Pitaka must be the best science book ever written, and its science that can be experience here and now. > In some ways I think of it as similar to something like > Euclid's "Elements"; only the scope of the subject matter is much > broader and the detail is much finer. The comparison I am making > has to do with rigor and drawing out implications in a systematic > way. > > So for some of us it takes a long time for our minds to open to > Abhidhamma. If I hadn't practiced regularly for those decades I > would not have had the patience to absorb a small part of its beauty. > The more I study and understand, the more I see how much patience it REALLY requires; that these many descriptions of nama and rupa, of conditions, of dependent origination, the 4 Noble Truths, the 3 characteristics of impermance, not self and totally unsatisfactory, is all about what I take to be me and my life. > Best wishes, > > Dharmajim May we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 31144 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken O and Sarah, The point of contention between both of you seems to be quite subtle. I really need to have very good understanding to be able to add anything more than what you have already stated. I don't, but maybe saying a little about my own experience may give Ken a little more to consider. As you now understand, I agree totally with Sarah. Let me first try to express what I understand about your positions. I think what you Ken, are saying about `Naturalness' is that it can be taken wrongly and be an excuse of laxness. You consider `inherent tendencies' a major threat and so you think it good sense to always be alert. This leads you to view certain situations and activities as being non-conducive to the arising and/or development of satipatthana. You think that `natural' can be taken too far, leading to not being discriminative about whether a particular situation or activity should be avoided or not. I understand Sarah, to be insisting on naturalness in spite of everything, and this is my own position too! I consider `wrong view' as the *only* real threat to satipatthana. Allow me to say something about my own understanding of `natural'. In the beginning when I first heard it, I didn't understand it. It took quite some time, before I understood its principle. This went along with my increased understanding of the difference between `reality and concept'. But even when I started to `believe' in it, it was still on a rather superficial level. After all, the words `natural', `time' and `place', were understood as per the accumulated understanding then! One could be saying to oneself, that satipatthana could be practiced at anytime and anyplace and still be bound to the concept of `time' and `place', and even perhaps a `self' who is practicing anytime and anyplace!! ;-) I understood on a more or less philosophical level, that one must understand one's own mind as it reacts naturally to circumstances and that an idea of "doing" something would be an instance of obscuring that understanding. How can one understand conditionality if there is a `self' coming in between?! This being a philosophical position, it bread still an idea of `self being natural'. There would be instances of trying to catch realities `in daily life'. And though I understood that even this was not the way, it didn't reduce that tendency, because I needed to understand more. Which I think, I later did. Now, my understanding of natural is this. And guess what Ken, it goes along with my understanding of tendencies and conditionality. Your understanding of natural tendencies seems to have lead you to be more wary of them. In my case it has lead to a generally more relaxed attitude. Ken, I don't think Sarah or any of us would prefer akusala to kusala. And though it may be that you are more aware of subtle akusala than any of us, I still don't think that it makes sense to conclude from your own experience, that one must avoid certain situations and activities. This as Sarah has said, would be underestimating the scope of satipatthana, and worse, it could be adding to wrong view. There is absolutely no reason, after knowing some Dhamma, that our lives should change. Except for rare cases, I think any sudden change in one's daily activities could safely be concluded as reflective of `wrong understanding' of Dhamma. The natural tendencies rule and must be so, and how can we expect such little development of satipatthana to wipe all that out? Greed, aversion, conceit, pride, attachment and so on, none of these are not good objects of satipatthana. If all these didn't arise naturally, how are we expected to understand them? And even if sati doesn't arise, what would you do?!! As you know Ken, I play computer games, watch lots of movies and am attached to food. Would you rather that I stop these activities with a wrong view about control and self, than to side by side slowly study dhamma and get my views straightened? I do not consider any of my above mentioned activities as being preferable to say, sitting down and discussing dhamma. But when I do indulge in these activities, they are `conditioned'. And it is here if anywhere, that I can understand those conditions. If not, then how and where? If you are naturally to have `zeal' when you perceive akusala that is because of conditions, but would you expect this to be the case with everyone? And how could you say what goes on in the mind of others, at the beginning, in the middle of, or at the end of any conventional activity? Remember, the five precepts are training rules and not commandments. They are just guidelines and *cannot* be forced. Why? Because they must go with understanding. Luckily for us, these are quite gross akusala, so even someone with relatively low understanding can to a good degree follow them. But even then, there are and will be moments when we will break them. And this understanding does not go against `right view'. On the other hand, if someone thinks that one must perfect sila first, this I think is `wrong view'. Let us concentrate more on getting the facts right. ;-) I wanted to comment on a few points in your post, but this is already too long. So I end here and wait for feedback. Metta, Sukin ps: I just saw that Ken H. has also responded, but I am attached to the effort I put into writing this, so I will send this off without first reading his response. ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > > > S: If we understood satipatthana to mean that `we can do whatever > > we like' or that it doesn't matter whether we're performing `good' > or `harm', then this would be wrong view. However, the Buddha never > suggested there was any situation when it was impossible for > satipatthana to arise and develop. > > k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for > satipatthana to arise. As I say, lets be objective, we encourage > others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of 31145 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Hello Doret, Jack and all, All kinds of beings are together here suffering in Samsara - 'the wandering on' through uncountable rebirths. The three poisons of greed, hate and delusion are the same now as in the Buddha's time. Nothing has changed, despite the involvment of millions in political and welfare movements over many centuries. This is not to say that people should not be involved with the welfare of others. Helping others is admirable, things improve, but then things get worse again, depending on conditions, depending on kamma and vipaka ... nothing remains the same, there is incessant change - impermanence. Each and every being we personally come across in our daily life should be shown metta and karuna, not only humans, or special classes of humans. Each of us will do whatever conditions, and our accumulations, incline us to do. And what we do will strengthen those accumulations, wholesome or unwholesome. No-one would encourage you to stop doing what you're doing, but neither should you feel that it is compulsory for you to continue. I work as a crisis social worker in an area where most of the people are on social security benefits, there are over a hundred different ethnic groups, many are refugees without english or work skills, single parent families are the norm, there are large tracts of welfare housing, gangs and a general lack of services. From time to time I have started various groups, but continued them only so long as I felt they were serving a purpose that brought clear benefits to others, there was no other way to meet the need, and no other person/organisation able to do what needed to be done. But sometimes a break can be a good thing. The Buddha taught that the major effort should be on attaining Liberation. The teaching of the Buddha in the four noble truths is about exactly what suffering is and about the way to the end of suffering. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Jack, > > Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to > support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) > > I know these articles can't make decisions for me, but I can add them to the > mix when I have to decide. I have been wavering between continuing my > magazine and assisting others, on one hand, and leading a more contemplative > life, on the other hand. The first is on behalf of others; the second is > what I really want to do for myself. > > Thank you again for the references. > > Metta, > Doret > > > > On 3/9/04 11:01 AM, "Jackhat1@a..." wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/9/04 12:54:00 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... > > writes: > > Is it > > true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because > > they focus their attention only inward on liberation? > > Doret, > > > > No. > > > > Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to Peace > > and another link to www.bpf.com. > > > > jack > > > > 31146 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Hi Doret Just one sentence If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to help others ;-). Cheers Ken O 31147 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 0:54am Subject: Abhidhamma/Jeff was (Re: the self. . . how?/Jack) Hi Philip, Philip: I won't keep coming back to it, just as I won't keep coming back to the things I said to James. Story over. (With a quick apology to James and all for the nasty tone I used. That won't happen again.) James: Oh sure, no problem. And even if it does happen again it is no problem. It is difficult to communicate this way because there is no way to immediately clarify and to soothe reactions. Some of what I wrote you took the wrong way but I didn't want to respond because it would have made things worse. Not only that, I found many of the things you wrote very hilarious!! ;-)) (Especially the last part about the pyramids filling my head with majestic crap! LOL!). It is forgotten. So, if your wife put a hex on me, please ask her to take it back. ;-)) Metta, James 31148 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:49am Subject: Transforming dosa Hello all In the last month or so I've fallen into the practice of observing soruces of dosa (though I didn't use that word) that arise in a repetitive way in my life, and working with them in my morning brahma- viharas meditation as a way of transforming them. And on the surface, it works. For example, I came to realize that men gobbing up phlegm and spitting it out on the street, quite a common sight and sound here, was causing me to react with aversion. Often it earned the gentlemen in question a glare, and on one regrettable day, I scolded a man with "you should be ashamed of yourself!" So I started to include these men in my brahma-viharas work, contemplating the suffering that is behind the gobbing of phlegm, and reminding myself that I too do disgusting things such as farting in elevators and never stop to regret it. Lately, thanks to this group, this kind of conceptual work started out by grounding myself as solidly in right understanding as I could. (Seeing people as rising and falling rupa and nama, the way I saw my wife the other day.) And it works. Now when I come across this scene, and I do every day, karuna rises immediately, and I am able to feel friendliness towards the men immediately rather than aversion. (Dosa becomes adosa?) And as a kind of extension, I find this extends to any kind of behaviour related to smoking that used to cause me aversion. It simply doesn't arise anymore. There is a growing list of these designated sources of aversion, and as a result, dosa is most definitely descreasing in my life. That's a fact. This afternoon, looking through the Usfeul Posts, I came across this from Jon. (msg #2088) Jon: Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form of akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting this as a form of 'practice'. (Indeed, whole schools of meditation practice have built up around this concept.) This of course would be a mistake, because it is wanting to be other that we truly are at that moment. And of course, getting rid of the dosa of the present moment by such means does not address the fundamental problem - lack of developed understanding. Actually, most of the ideas we have about 'practice' are wrong view (miccha ditthi). This should not surprise us. Just as we have more akusala in general in a day that kusala, so too with miccha ditti/samma ditthi in particular. Once we manage to accept this, it means we are more likely to recognise the miccha ditthi when it arises. This is vital for creating the right conditions for more awareness and right understanding to arise. As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing. Much more useful than supressing those moments of akusala! -- end of quote -- So just like that, I was able to see through the shortcomings of my approach. It is addressing sources of aversion, and in a sense removing them from my life, but it is not getting at the root of my wrong understanding. Again, I feel such gratitude to this group, and I must say it's fun having such a steep learning curve! Just about every time I come here I learn something radically important. I'm not saying that I will abandon my practice. It's too effective to give up right away without playing with some more. But I will do it with the awareness that it is not -is amost certainly not- right understanding. I'll just add that another benefit of the practice I described above that it helps the other person. Being friendly towards aversion- causing people helps them more than glaring at them or scolding them. For those of us with altruistic leanings, helping others albeit through wrong understanding may be as important as liberating ourselves through right understanding. I expect I'll be continuing on this double track for awhile. Metta, Phil 31149 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sukin k: Aiyah - I encourage you to write and now I get a full essay ;-). > I think what you Ken, are saying about `Naturalness' is that it can be taken wrongly and be an excuse of laxness. You consider `inherent > tendencies' a major threat and so you think it good sense to always > be alert. k: IMHO one cannot be alert if one does not consider dhamma. I said earlier that one cannot burn candles just to be vigilant, there is no way. Only when one consider dhammas, then it will condition zeal. k: There are four kinds of undertaking, I belong to the third kind. If panna is strong enough, then the understaking will be the fourth kind pleasant abiding produce pleasant result. Since panna is not strong enough, then sila must come into place. that is the purpose of sila, - setting a boundary, a limit. Even one set it as a commandant is of no use, because panna is weak. Certain actions like wrong speech cannot be in satipatthana because it is akusala. That does not mean that sati cannot arise later. But if panna will arise during the speech or before the speech, then our actions can be two ways. A natural concept by letting it go, we follow the wrong speech. Or a naturally concept with sila enhance by panna, we stop talking. At this moment, one may blame one panna are weak and follow wrong speech, that is to me, a lame excuse. Because each aksuala actions will bring more akusala tendecies. If one know one panna is weak, then one should be more vigilant, consider the six senses more as it arise, arouse zeal (conditioned by consideration of dhamma). When one ponder more in dhamma, zeal will arouse, panna will increase. that is why the notion of having good dhamma friends etc are important for enlightement. Wrong view is a threat to satipathanna but inertia is also a threat to satipatthana. Satipatthana will not arise on its own without one consider dhamma. Then why I said dont be fooled by conditions because if one does not see conditions as this not mine, not I not myself, one fall into the trap. There is a suble difference in all are just conditions and all conditions are not mine, not I and not myself. When one see conditions and refuse to reflect further on its characteristics because of fear of it being thought as thinking rather than sati then it another unwise thing to do. Because only by reflecting it as anatta, again and again, then will these conditions will be known as it is. Yes we can say that by thinking it is full of false sense of self view. But if one does not ponder on anatta, one will not understand it. It is at times difficult to explain this subtle difference. S: The natural tendencies rule and must be so, and how can we expect such little development of satipatthana to wipe all that out? Greed, > aversion, conceit, pride, attachment and so on, none of these are > not good objects of satipatthana. If all these didn't arise > naturally, how are we expected to understand them? And even if sati> doesn't arise, what would you do?!! K: Sukin dont underestimate the power of satipatthana, small, subtle but powerful to overcome tendecies. It may not wipe out kilesa now, but that does not mean we should feed our kilesa more and more. S: Would you rather that I stop these activities with a wrong view about control and self, than to side by side slowly study dhamma and get my views straightened? K: No Sukin, you can never stop these activities until panna is strong enough. Only when we study more and more dhamma, then we automatically stop it. Dont even need a sila to control it. You got two choice (conventionally before Sarah said about choice again), either you consider more and more dhamma or you continue doing what you like. If I read suttas about this is not me, not I not myself can condition a false sense of self, then I be better off betting on it than going on to do what I like just because it is condition so we should be like that. If consider dhamma through reading of sutta is a wrong view, then I will rather bet on it than rather let my conditions overcome me. ;-). Ken O 31150 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Ajahn Jose, So sorry to hear this. I hope that you can maintain your good spirits and positive outlook. And remember that there is no greater refuge than the Dhamma. Hope that you have enough good kamma to overcome this period with little pain and that you would soon join us in the journey toward a greater understanding of the Buddha's teachings. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Ajahn Jose has given me permission to put his post on dsg telling of > the state of his health. Some of you may already know, but I am sure > it will come as a great shock to others. > > On 24 February, Ajahn wrote to us to say: > "Today I was released from intensive care after 15 days in hospital. > While > I was in Bangkok I went on Pindabar in front of the Marble Temple > where I was staying and ate the food that was given by the people. I > caught the Ecolid Bug and had a almost fatal gastrointeritis > infection and got three stones in my kidneys and got a kidney > infection. Next week I am having and operation for the removal of the > stones". > > On 9 March, Ajahn wrote to Suan: > "Last week when I was in hospital for three weeks, when they took the > kidney stones the surgeon took pictures of my kidney. The bad news is > that my left kidney is complete riddle with cancer so next Tuesday > the 16th of March they are removing the left kidney to prevent the > spread of the cancer to the right kidney. I will be at John James > Memorial Private Hospital in Canberra. Hope to see you. Ajahn Jose." > > I know you will be thinking of him with metta and karuna now and > especially on the 16th. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31151 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Hi Christine, You have so very well expressed what I could not have in many more words. This reflects your deep understanding and success in bringing the lessons of dhamma into your work and daily life. I feel inspired. :-) Anumodana, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Doret, Jack and all, > > All kinds of beings are together here suffering in Samsara - 'the > wandering on' through uncountable rebirths. The three poisons of > greed, hate and delusion are the same now as in the Buddha's time. > Nothing has changed, despite the involvment of millions in political > and welfare movements over many centuries. This is not to say that > people should not be involved with the welfare of others. Helping > others is admirable, things improve, but then things get worse again, > depending on conditions, depending on kamma and vipaka ... nothing > remains the same, there is incessant change - impermanence. Each > and every being we personally come across in our daily life should > be shown metta and karuna, not only humans, or special classes of > humans. > Each of us will do whatever conditions, and our accumulations, > incline us to do. And what we do will strengthen those accumulations, > wholesome or unwholesome. > No-one would encourage you to stop doing what you're doing, but > neither should you feel that it is compulsory for you to continue. I > work as a crisis social worker in an area where most of the people > are on social security benefits, there are over a hundred different > ethnic groups, many are refugees without english or work skills, > single parent families are the norm, there are large tracts of > welfare housing, gangs and a general lack of services. From time to > time I have started various groups, but continued them only so long > as I felt they were serving a purpose that brought clear > benefits to others, there was no other way to meet the need, and no > other person/organisation able to do what needed to be done. But > sometimes a break can be a good thing. > The Buddha taught that the major effort should be on attaining > Liberation. The teaching of the Buddha in the four noble truths is > about exactly what suffering is and about the way to the end of > suffering. > > metta and peace, > Christine 31152 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Dear KenO, Sukin and Sarah, I am finding this discussion very interesting and would like to add to it. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sukin > > k: Aiyah - I encourage you to write and now I get a full essay ;-). > > > I think what you Ken, are saying about `Naturalness' is that it can > be taken wrongly and be an excuse of laxness. You consider `inherent > > tendencies' a major threat and so you think it good sense to always > > > be alert. > > k: IMHO one cannot be alert if one does not consider dhamma. I said > earlier that one cannot burn candles just to be vigilant, there is no > way. Only when one consider dhammas, then it will condition zeal. > > k: There are four kinds of undertaking, I belong to the third kind. > If panna is strong enough, then the understaking will be the fourth > kind pleasant abiding produce pleasant result. Since panna is not > strong enough, then sila must come into place. that is the purpose > of sila, - setting a boundary, a limit. Even one set it as a > commandant is of no use, because panna is weak. Certain actions like > wrong speech cannot be in satipatthana because it is akusala. That > does not mean that sati cannot arise later. But if panna will arise > during the speech or before the speech, then our actions can be two > ways. A natural concept by letting it go, we follow the wrong > speech. Or a naturally concept with sila enhance by panna, we stop > talking. At this moment, one may blame one panna are weak and follow > wrong speech, that is to me, a lame excuse. Because each aksuala > actions will bring more akusala tendecies. If one know one panna is > weak, then one should be more vigilant, consider the six senses more > as it arise, arouse zeal (conditioned by consideration of dhamma). > When one ponder more in dhamma, zeal will arouse, panna will > increase. that is why the notion of having good dhamma friends etc > are important for enlightement. > A: Have been listening to Dhamma Discussion on tape and it was about Silabbata-Paramasa and wrong view. Ken, I understand what you are saying, but we must be very careful not to fall into the trap of trying to control our situation. As I understand, Sati at the level of Satipatthana cannot arise unless there is highly developed right understanding. Right understanding that knows that this moment cannot be 'orchestrated' to suit our idea of what is right or wrong. It seems to me to be a very fine line bet. trying to control the present moment on one hand and 'allowing' the present moment to be just as it is as it arises. Its like first knowing in our head that this moment cannot be manipulated to suit our ideals, and then knowing in our heart that this is really true. It has to begin with rightunderstanding, I believe there is no other way. Maybe this is what you are saying in the next passage anyway. Wrong view is a threat to satipathanna but inertia is also a threat > to satipatthana. Satipatthana will not arise on its own without one > consider dhamma. Then why I said dont be fooled by conditions > because if one does not see conditions as this not mine, not I not > myself, one fall into the trap. There is a suble difference in all > are just conditions and all conditions are not mine, not I and not > myself. When one see conditions and refuse to reflect further on its > characteristics because of fear of it being thought as thinking > rather than sati then it another unwise thing to do. Because only by > reflecting it as anatta, again and again, then will these conditions > will be known as it is. Yes we can say that by thinking it is full > of false sense of self view. But if one does not ponder on anatta, > one will not understand it. It is at times difficult to explain this > subtle difference. > > > S: The natural tendencies rule and must be so, and how can we > expect such little development of satipatthana to wipe all that out? > Greed, > > aversion, conceit, pride, attachment and so on, none of these are > > not good objects of satipatthana. If all these didn't arise > > naturally, how are we expected to understand them? And even if > sati> doesn't arise, what would you do?!! > > K: Sukin dont underestimate the power of satipatthana, small, subtle > but powerful to overcome tendecies. It may not wipe out kilesa now, > but that does not mean we should feed our kilesa more and more. > > > S: Would you rather that I stop these activities with a wrong view > about control and self, than to side by side slowly study dhamma and > get my views straightened? > > K: No Sukin, you can never stop these activities until panna is > strong enough. Only when we study more and more dhamma, then we > automatically stop it. Dont even need a sila to control it. You got > two choice (conventionally before Sarah said about choice again), > either you consider more and more dhamma or you continue doing what > you like. If I read suttas about this is not me, not I not myself > can condition a false sense of self, then I be better off betting on > it than going on to do what I like just because it is condition so we > should be like that. If consider dhamma through reading of sutta is a > wrong view, then I will rather bet on it than rather let my > conditions overcome me. ;-). > > > > Ken O Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 31153 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Bhante, --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > So sorry to hear this. I hope that you can maintain your good > spirits and positive outlook. And remember that there is no greater > refuge than the Dhamma. > > Hope that you have enough good kamma to overcome this period with > little pain and that you would soon join us in the journey toward a > greater understanding of the Buddha's teachings. .... I’m sure we all on DSG share these kind wishes of Sukin’s. From the Dhammapada, we read: Verse 364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous. [Dhammaaraamo dhammarato dhamma"m anuvicintaya"m dhamma"m anussara"m bhikkhu saddhammaa na parihaayati (Dhp 364)] ******* The Story of Thera Dhammarama http://www.vipassana.info/ While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (364) of this book, with reference to Thera Dhammarama. When it was made known to the disciples that the Buddha would realize Parinibbana in four months' time, most of the puthujjana bhikkhus (i.e., those who had not attained any of the Maggas) felt extremely depressed and were at a loss and did not know what to do. They just stayed close to the Buddha, hardly ever leaving his presence. However, there was a bhikkhu by the name of Dhammarama who kept to himself and did not go near the Buddha. His intention was to strive most ardently to attain arahatship before the passing away of the Buddha. So he strove hard in Insight Meditation Practice. Other bhikkhus, not understanding his attitude and his noble ambition, misunderstood his behaviour. Those bhikkhus took Dhammarama to the Buddha and said to the Enlightened One, "Venerable Sir! This bhikkhu does not seem to have any affection or regard or reverence for you; he has been staying by himself while all the time other bhikkhus are staying close to Your Venerable presence." When other bhikkhus had said everything they wanted to say, Dhammarama respectfully explained to the Buddha why he had not come to see the Buddha and also reported that he had been striving his utmost in Insight Meditation Practice. The Buddha was satisfied and was very pleased with the explanation and conduct of Dhammarama and he said, "My son, Dhammarama, you have done very well. A bhikkhu who loves and respects me should act like you. Those who made offerings of flowers, scents and incense to me are not really paying me homage. Only those who practise the Dhamma are the ones who truly pay homage to me." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous. At the end of the discourse Thera Dhammarama attained arahatship. ******************* With metta and very best wishes for a successful operation and good recovery. Sarah (& Jon) ==== 31154 From: Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 11:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism In a message dated 3/9/04 7:37:10 PM Central Standard Time, doretk@s... writes: Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) Try http://www.bpf.org/html/home.html for the Buddhist Peace Fellowship (BPF). jack. 31155 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Jack, I visited this link. PERFECT! Everything I could wish for! Thank you so much. Metta and appreciation, Doret On 3/10/04 4:23 AM, "Jackhat1@a..." wrote: > doretk@s... writes: > Thank you for referring me to Liberation Park. Now I have actual texts to > support engaged Buddhism.. (I could not access the bpf link.) > Try http://www.bpf.org/html/home.html for the Buddhist Peace Fellowship (BPF). > > jack. 31156 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Ken O, True. The trick is finding the right proportion of me to others. I feel a deep need to do more practice and study for me. But my current work for others leaves no more space. Meanwhile, I am not dwelling in past or future, confident that a way will unfold. Thank you for the reminder. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 1:09 AM, "Ken O" wrote: > Hi Doret > > Just one sentence > > If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to help > others ;-). > > > > Cheers > Ken O 31157 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Christine, On 3/9/04 10:44 PM, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > From time to time I have started various groups, but continued them only so > long as I felt they were serving a purpose that brought clear benefits to others, there was no other way to meet the need, and no > other person/organisation able to do what needed to be done. > The Buddha taught that the major effort should be on attaining > Liberation. Unfortunately, my work seems to include the criteria you mention. The dilemma is perfectly stated above. Thank you for putting it so clearly. With metta, Doret 31158 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken H and (Michael) Not discussing this issue with you, when I read you have two teeth extracted, it reminds me of my injection (four short injections). The second was painful but amazing when the painful feeling is known as "not me, myself or I", there is pain but the feeling of I feeling pain is not there. A sense of detachment was there. The pain become bearable. The pain is just another fleeting moment that is experience. Michael Before you go, I read an interesting sutta (sunna sutta), something strike me "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self" then I always listen to you saying that dhamma has no core. Maybe this sutta statement that says it is empty of a self (including a permanent self) says that feeling (an eg) is empty of self (or a core), but it does not say feeling does not exist ;-) think about it. Occurance is not the way to explain dependent conditionality, it should be said existence of not self is the way to explain dependent conditionality, because the core is empty of a self but the occurance is truly experience. Maybe you tell me if you pinch youself now, you dont feel pain. The pain is empty of a self but the pain is there ;-) - that is how an empty core should be understand and not otherwise. Ken O 31159 From: Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Hi, Azita - In a message dated 3/10/04 1:24:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes to Dharmajim (Hi, Dharmajim! ;-): > At times, there does seem to be an anti-abhidhamma sentiment on > dsg from some posters and I believe that we are all entitled to > our 'all embracing net of views', and some of the discussion does > become 'lively'. ============================ This sounds like you think that one who has reservations of any sort with regard to the Abhidhamma, while having a "right" to such reservations, still must be infected with some of the wrong views that the Buddha lists among his "net of views" - among his mentioned "thicket of views". I suppose that one who considers only the Sutta Pitaka to be the actual word of the Buddha might adopt the same carte blanche position vis-a-vis Abhidhammikas. I personally think that both positions are off the mark, with the conclusion of necessarily being a victim of wrong view, in each case, simply not being a valid one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31160 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear D. Kollerer Good Guys finish last!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I agree that Catholicism can be an introduction to other systems. I started > with St. John of the Cross, which prepared me for Hafiz and Rumi in Sufi > literature, for the Bhagavad Gita, and for Zen. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Congratulations! That's an excellent "Curriculum Vitae"!!!! Your quarterly seems to be a good initiative to put in practice many buddhistic ethics issues!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > My quarterly magazine is The Justice Xpress, a low-budget (printed on cheap > paper), social-political-environmental publication. It is politically left > of center. When it was called The North Coast Xpress, it was on Internet > until Fall 2001. A battered remnant is at http://thunder.sonic.net/~doretk/ > > The Justice Xpress is not online. Prisoners are my main concern and they > need a printed publication.. The magazine is in its 12th year, and I don't > know what to do. I think of it as a window on the world for prisoners and a > window on prisoners for the world. The final 13 pages are written by or for > prisoners and offer spiritual, legal and other help. (The current one has an > article about a prisoner by a Soto Zen priest.) Six ads offer free Buddhist > help, one of them a Karma book. That is the problem. I would like to quit > the magazine, but that means sacrificing assistance for prisoners on death > rows around the country, for those in solitary confinement, and for those > who are tortured in this hidden world. I finally decided that the next issue > would be the last one, then had second thoughts. Right now I don't know > what to do. (If anyone would like to see a copy and give advice, let me > know.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Meritorious!!!!! I do believe that many people here at dsg could acquire many benefit to theit Kamma getting a hand on such applied matters! How many of us could even have got endurance and stamina to carry on prisioners' assistance ??? Keep Boostin' Doret!!! Could I get a copy ? If so, I will send you my complete name and address at next post here and you'll get my ( and RobMoult's !!!) subscription!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31161 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Dear Sukin: So, You want to learn Brazuca's Dialect!!!!! Ah! That's a challenge!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The point of contention between both of you seems to be quite > subtle. I really need to have very good understanding to be able to > add anything more than what you have already stated. I don't, but > maybe saying a little about my own experience may give Ken a little > more to consider. As you now understand, I agree totally with Sarah. > Let me first try to express what I understand about your positions. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I get some conversation primers on Hindi (Hindustani) and Urdu. My retailer could find me also Hipocrene Series Gujarati's, Tamil's, Malay's and so on. When I was trying to carry on my PhD grade on National Observatory of Rio de Janeiro I had got a lecturer which native's tongue were malay!!! Very funny!!! Not I am with the Military Personnel... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I wanted to comment on a few points in your post, but this is > already too long. So I end here and wait for feedback. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I am looking forward for your CDs!!! May I Ask you, Sukin, what's your native language ??? Mettaya, Ícaro 31162 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism Dear Chris: > All kinds of beings are together here suffering in Samsara - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Now it's just in time for you to do something objetive and real for them!!!!! Doret's initiative seems to me a good idea for engaged buddhism! Mettaya, Ícaro 31163 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Ícaro, You take my breath away. Such supportive words! Yes, you can get a copy. Please send address(s). Much mudito, Doret > On 3/10/04 7:31 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear D. Kollerer > Your quarterly seems to be a good initiative to put in practice > many buddhistic ethics issues!!! > > I do believe that many people here at dsg could acquire many > benefit to theit Kamma getting a hand on such applied matters! How > many of us could even have got endurance and stamina to carry on > prisioners' assistance ??? > > Keep Boostin' Doret!!! > > Could I get a copy ? If so, I will send you my complete name and > address at next post here and you'll get my ( and RobMoult's !!!) > subscription!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro > 31164 From: Andy Wilson Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Ken O: > If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to > help others ;-). why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it conceivable that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others might be connected with our own progress? > Suggest you go to http://www.liberationpark.org/ , follow the link to > Peace and another link to www.bpf.com. i read this article with great interest: http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002a/nonviolence.htm and found that while i couldn't agree with the politics of the argument, i agreed with it's principle - namely that buddhism is not at all a pacifist philosophy, as far as i understand it. metta andy > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken O [mailto:ashkenn2k@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:09 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism > > > Hi Doret > > Just one sentence > > If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to > help others ;-). > > > > Cheers > Ken O 31165 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Doret Here you get, pal! Ícaro dos Santos França Rua Bulhões Marcial 553, ap.201, Parada de Lucas, CEP 21241370, Rio de janeiro., RJ, BRAZIL. I will look forward for your mag copy!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31166 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence dear Andy: > i agreed with it's principle - namely that buddhism is not at all a > pacifist philosophy, as far as i understand it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact!!! Buddha never stressed up at Non-Violence way...his words have got the meaning that we ought to understand our minds and how to free the ties that bind us on the Samsara wheel. Only at Asoka's age had appeared the idea of compassionate feelings for all beings, vegetarianism and so on Mettaya, Ícaro 31167 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:04am Subject: space, Dsgn, Expositor space, Dsgn, Expositor Space, recap, Vis XIV, 36, Tiika: Dhammasangani, 638: That which is space and belongs to space, is sky and belongs to sky, is vacuum and belongs to vacuum, and is not in contact with the four Great Phenomena. The Expositor II (p. 425) <...space is that which is not Œscratched¹, not scratched off, which is not possible to scratch, cut, or break... ŒSky¹ [in Pali agha] is that which is not struck (a-gha.m); not strikable is the meaning. Aghagata²m is the same. ŒVacuum¹ (vivara, opening) is in the sense of a hole; also vivaragata.m. By Œuntouched by the four great essentials¹ the unentangled space-element untouched by these is stated...> (follows the definition). Remarks: untouched, because it is empty, like air. Conventional terms such as cavity of the ear, nose, spaces in the body, are used, helping us to understand its nature. It seems a mere nothing, like air, but still, it performs very neatly its function, separating the groups of rupa. What chaos there would be without it. The groups would not be distinct, they would permeate each other. Each of the groups of octads, nonads, decads etc. plays its own part, it is important that they are distinct. The eyedecad contains eyesense, a necessary condition for seeing. Nobody can say, be there in time, don¹t fall away, so that you can be base for seeing. It performs its function, arising just for a moment and then gone. The decad of speech intimation (the inseparables, sound and speech intimation) arises at the appropriate time, and nobody can tell it to do so. Speech intimation has performed its function before we realize it. Space surrounds all these different groups. ***** (to be continued with Tiika) 31168 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, more to come. Hi Larry, op 10-03-2004 01:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > Is there any commentary for space, or should we go on to the lightness > triad? N: Yes, more to come. And before going on to lightness: I want to post what I have in my Rupas on this triad, as a kind of intro. . 31169 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Andy, Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no wiggle room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: the magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and selecting teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending prisoners spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung cancer and needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation practice, and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE connected with our own progress. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 7:56 AM, "Andy Wilson" wrote: > Ken O: >> If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to >> help others ;-). > > why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it conceivable > that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others > might be connected with our own progress? > > metta > > andy > > > 31170 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Ícaro, Your full name is beautiful. Thank you for the address. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 8:00 AM, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Doret > > Here you get, pal! > > Ícaro dos Santos França > > Rua Bulhões Marcial 553, ap.201, > Parada de Lucas, CEP 21241370, > Rio de janeiro., RJ, BRAZIL. > > I will look forward for your mag copy!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 31171 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Doret, > > Your full name is beautiful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Heh... Thanxs!!!! Mettaya, ícaro 31172 From: LaVerne Lenhart Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:03am Subject: New to Group Hi. I am new to your group and I am very interested in getting started. Is there a particular spot for a beginner?? I have studied Metaphysics for many years. Are there any particular websites to begin???? Thanks so much, Namaste, LaVerne dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com wrote: There are 25 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 31173 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:20pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Andy, > > Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no wiggle > room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: the > magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and selecting > teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending prisoners > spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung cancer and > needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation practice, > and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE connected > with our own progress. > > With metta, > Doret > > > > On 3/10/04 7:56 AM, "Andy Wilson" wrote: > > > Ken O: > >> If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to > >> help others ;-). > > > > why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it conceivable > > that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others > > might be connected with our own progress? > > > > metta > > > > andy It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help another person in prison? Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara are in any position to really help those who are still in prison (either metaphorically or literally). The Buddha taught for 45 years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) Metta, James 31174 From: Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 63, space and suttas Hi Sarah, I think the comments in the Guide in CMA are U Rewata Dhamma's. I seem to recall a correspondence from B. Bodhi re. a question we had about CMA and I believe he said he was just the editor. Larry 31175 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 09 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has changed his body position from sitting to standing and then he changes into walking meditation. While he walks he is continuously noting whatever is sensed. He looks just 4 feet ahead but he still sees the floor he has been walking on. He notes that we moves and at the same time he sees the floor. He recognizes that seeing-consciousness arises, persists and falls away. While he is doing walking meditation he can hear the sound of fan and he recognizes that hearing-consciousness arises, persists and falls away. At an unmarked time he gets some smell and he realizes that there arises smell-consciousness and it persists and it falls away. After his breakfast there still left some taste in his mouth even though he washes and cleans his mouth. He can taste and he recognizes that taste-consciousness arises, it persists, and it falls away. While he is walking he is continuously noting raise, stretch, step, stand and in the process he notices that his foot touches the floor and touch-consciousness arises, persists, and falls away. He realises that these consciousness or vinnana are not him or his. There is no trace of self or atta in these consciousness or vinnana. Vinnana just arise, persist, and fall away. There is no one controlling them. They all are anatta. They are the source for arising of nama dhamma. They are clinging aggregates of consciousness called vinnanupadanakkhandha. They are anatta. He see dhamma as they really are. May you all see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31176 From: Rev. John B. Brown Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:17pm Subject: Western Engaged Buddhism For those that are interested in creating a forum for a Western Vehicle of Buddhism to evolve go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bodhi00. Metta---John 31177 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Doret, > It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to > prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I > also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison > Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really > help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am > in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the > five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no > matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and > bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my > toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help > another person in prison? > A. 'from the top of my head....' this sounds like a description of me, James. How often do I 'wanna break free',- at least 10 times a day. I have to keep reminding myself that that is just a desire, to be free of the binds that keep me tied to samsara; but that's just thinking, not the way out but, as I see it, the way further in!!! > Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara > are in any position to really help those who are still in prison > (either metaphorically or literally). A: Yes, I tend to agree with you here, altho I'm sure that even as a sorry worldling, there must be moments where we can genuinly help someone. The Buddha taught for 45 > years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest > is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with > you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is > best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help > prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) > > Metta, James Patience, courage and good cheer, most of the time very hard to maintain from this puthujjana 's point of view. Azita. 31178 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:36pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello all, James wrote: >Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara >are in any position to really help those who are still in prison >(either metaphorically or literally). This is very interesting. A few weeks ago I would have disputed it absolutely, now I stop and think that it may be true. It's an example of how this group is pushing me to look at my understanding square on. I think we can provide soothing balms for people. For example, through brahma-viharas. And there is something to be said for balms. But James is right that to offer a true way out of prison, we have to get out first. And yet... have even the most advanced practicioners here reached true liberation yet? Nevertheless, you surely "really help" others. For example, I think of how much radically important guidance I've received in the 3 weeks or so since I came here. It hasn't gotten me out of prison, but it has surely shown me that I was trying to get out the wrong way. Metta, Phil p.s Doret - I have great admiration for the way you dedicate yourself to helping others - there is no way this kind of disccusion can take away from that merit. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: > > Dear Andy, > > > > Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no > wiggle > > room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: > the > > magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and > selecting > > teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending > prisoners > > spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung > cancer and > > needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation > practice, > > and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE > connected > > with our own progress. > > > 31179 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear James, You are absolutely right about not helping others until I have liberated myself as long as you are talking about personally teaching others. I do not teach. I perform a very lowly task, simply opening letters from prisoners, learning their needs, then sending one or more of these guides: Establishing a Legal Defense Fund, Interacting with Pen Pals and Visitors, Ven. Chutiko's Anapanasati Meditation Practice, Legal Support Resources, Prisoner Resources, Spiritual Pen Pal resources, Free Book resources. The magazine itself contains free offers to prisoners: Fortune News, Dharma Teaching Altar Cards, Hongaku Jodo of America (Buddhist mentoring & teaching, The Engaged Zen Foundation help, Karma Book, Doing Your Time with Peace of Mind Meditation by Doug Booth, Siddha Yoga Meditation Project, Bhavagad Gita book and Lessons, Centering Prayer Meditation (Father Keating), Innocence Denied, Support Group for the wrongfully convicted in CA, United Brethren Outreach Ministry, Health News, free legal help, assistance for troubled youth and adult prisoners, Chicano Mexicano Prison Project, Mishpacha-Yisrael,Tempel Bet Shalom for Jewish Inmates, D'awa Information Group for Muslim prisoners. I could be a non-Buddhist and carry out these chores. I don't have to think. I don't have to be a doer or giver. but the work can help someone on Death Row or someone caged in a tiny cell without human contact or family or friends in the outside world. I don't think you would suggest abandoning this work because I am not an advanced Buddhist practitioner. Strangely enough, three people visited me today and want to make the magazine a nonprofit and perhaps eventually take it over. Fund-raising would be possible. A lot of training is involved. And we may run out of money first. Either way, the problem will be settled. With metta, Doret On 3/10/04 1:20 PM, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Doret, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: >> Dear Andy, >> >> Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no > wiggle >> room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: > the >> magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and > selecting >> teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending > prisoners >> spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung > cancer and >> needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation > practice, >> and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE > connected >> with our own progress. >> >> With metta, >> Doret >> >> >> >> On 3/10/04 7:56 AM, "Andy Wilson" wrote: >> >>> Ken O: >>>> If you dont take care of your needs first, how do you able to >>>> help others ;-). >>> >>> why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it > conceivable >>> that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping > others >>> might be connected with our own progress? >>> >>> metta >>> >>> andy > > It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to > prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I > also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison > Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really > help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am > in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the > five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no > matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and > bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my > toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help > another person in prison? > > Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara > are in any position to really help those who are still in prison > (either metaphorically or literally). The Buddha taught for 45 > years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest > is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with > you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is > best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help > prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) > > Metta, James 31180 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) My Dear Friends,I would like to thank everybody for the wonderfull support and best wishes. I was devastated when I was told I have cancer to my kidney and that it has to be removed immidiately to prevent spread to the other one. Times like this I can see buddhism and the Dhamma at work. All of you have been terrific. I am going now to hospital for test and pre operation procedures. On the 16th is the big operation but I know that Suan will keep you inform. I am lucky to go to one of the best private hospital in the country and I got the top surgeon from Sydney coming to perform the operation.Two Dhammakaya monks are arriving today from Sydney to be with me all the time plus two Sri Lankan monks from Canberra are taking care of me. The support and loving kindness of the Shanga is magnificent. With Love , metta and appreciation. Ajahn Jose. I will be intouch after the operation 31181 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Howard and Jack, Dhamma study is an amazing business, isn't it? You especially like the term `prescribed behaviour' and I especially like the term `described behaviour.' Each of us is enthusiastic and well meaning but, at the same time, we are at loggerheads. Can discussion help, or should we agree to disagree and go our separate ways? In my opinion we can engage in constructive discussion provided we have a referee. Then, at least, we can say `this view is consistent with the referee's decision; this view is inconsistent.' We won't have to agree with the referee, just acknowledge his decisions. For the position of referee, I nominate the Pali Canon and its ancient Theravada commentaries. This won't please everyone, but what better choice could there be? I sometimes read emails from an Internet group called Buddha-L. It is composed mostly of American academics. They are very intelligent and eloquent, but they have a hotrod builder's approach to Dhamma study. They say; "I basically accept [eg] the Theravada teachings but I borrow from all traditions." And so their forum is a virtual Dhamma hotrod show: "Come and see my Dhamma model; I have taken the Pali Canon, ripped out its references to paramattha dhammas, and replaced them with Nagarjuna's theory of `experiential flux.' I've pretty well rejected the idea of `bare insight training' but I'm allowing some flexibility there. I've also adopted a rather natty Zen approach to the jhanas and . . . . ." It is good site for displaying one's creations in public, but that's about all. At dsg, I think we can have the best of both worlds. We can air our personal preferences but let's, at the same time, ascertain and acknowledge the original, Theravada teaching. Kind regards, Ken H It seem to me that if one follows prescribed behavior (prescribed by the > Buddha), and examines whatever arises with calm, non-reactive, non- selective, and > intent > attention, then what is actual will, in varying degrees, as conditions > determine, appear and be directly known. And the more regular and the more > correct the practice of mindful, non-reactive attention is carried out, the more > responsive the mind will become. > Howard, > > You said what I meant much better than I did. I notice that happens a lot. I > especially liked your reference to prescribed behavior. > > jack 31182 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > k: Aiyah - I encourage you to write and now I get a full essay ;- ). S: LOL, I'm always long winded. I think I must have been some kind of a preacher in a previous existence. ;-) > k: IMHO one cannot be alert if one does not consider dhamma. I said > earlier that one cannot burn candles just to be vigilant, there is no > way. Only when one consider dhammas, then it will condition zeal. S: Zeal is not the only possible outcome of a moment of rt. understanding. And even if it did arise, who is to say what will follow immediately? > k: There are four kinds of undertaking, I belong to the third kind. > If panna is strong enough, then the understaking will be the fourth > kind pleasant abiding produce pleasant result. Since panna is not > strong enough, then sila must come into place. S: I think it is dangerous to characterize oneself as this or that. It is quite unlikely that we will know exactly. Moreover right or wrong, there is never any reason to follow any prescribed path or even have any inclination to prefer one over the other, I think. Btw, what are these four kinds of undertaking? Any Suttas? > k: that is the purpose of sila, - setting a boundary, a limit. Even one set it as a > commandant is of no use, because panna is weak. S: A limit for what? Can we control conditions? What is sila if not `restraint' at the moment when the opportunity arises? Can we carry sila over to consequent moments? What would this imply? Beside there can be restraint with a sense of self, or there can be satipatthana of that moment. And when satipatthana does arise, then the sila is already perfect. > k: Certain actions like wrong speech cannot be in satipatthana because it is akusala. S: And Samatha, Dana and Sila can't be satipatthana either, so what? Panna cannot know itself or the accompanying cetasikas, but in the following moment anything can be known. During speech anything can be the object of satipatthana, the `intention', or `speech intimation', or `dosa' or `moha' or `sound'. Yes akusala can't be kusala and satipatthana is only kusala. But anything can be natural decisive support condition for satipatthana in the moment that follows, as you indicate below. > k: That does not mean that sati cannot arise later. But if panna will arise > during the speech or before the speech, then our actions can be two > ways. A natural concept by letting it go, we follow the wrong > speech. Or a naturally concept with sila enhance by panna, we stop > talking. S: So what you are saying is that if the panna is too weak to condition restraint for more than a moment, it would be wise then to summon up energy to restraint anyway. This you say can be done with a level of wisdom not of satipatthana, but kusala nevertheless. Like I said above, anything can be decisive support condition for satipatthana, but I would also caution, that lobha and wrong view can be conditioned anytime. So if indeed there is sila in the following moment and one stops talking, even this can be known. However you would agree that just keeping sila is not preferable to satipatthana which can arise at anytime. There is always a danger of lobha attaching to the idea of keeping sila, and this I believe can make it equally difficult, if not more, for panna of satipatthana to arise. Besides, the very idea of keeping sila because of fear of inherent tendencies can be due to an attachment to self. Because if indeed one saw in the moment that the citta is akusala and hence conditioning sila, there is no reason that this should then give rise to an idea of developing more sila. One might have seen then that it was because there was sati and panna that the remembrance to keep sila arose. So what should the priority be? > k: At this moment, one may blame one panna are weak and follow > wrong speech, that is to me, a lame excuse. S: I think if I ignored sila and indulged in akusala, it would not be with the excuse that there is weak panna, but rather that there would actually be no panna then. ;-) And if I indeed had such thoughts that you express above, then I believe that it is wrong view. Because I don't believe that panna or lack of it is anything more than a single moment arising and completely fallen away. How can I presuppose lack of panna at any given moment? There is or there is no panna, no need for excuses. And there is or there is no restraint, no excuses here either. What you are saying is that if I had an overall idea of having weak panna, then I should at least see the importance of developing sila to support my practice. But weak panna works on either side of sila. One can restraint with self, if not, then there is still a danger for lack of panna, to identify with the self having `kept sila'. And worse, like the example of the `old and young monk' which Howard recently gave, the young monk could be carrying the idea of keeping sila with him for a long time. I am also thinking now, about how identification wrongly with any particular aspect of the Teachings can condition self view and hence lead to wrong practice. > k: Because each aksuala > actions will bring more akusala tendecies. If one know one panna is > weak, then one should be more vigilant, consider the six senses more > as it arise, arouse zeal (conditioned by consideration of dhamma). > When one ponder more in dhamma, zeal will arouse, panna will > increase. that is why the notion of having good dhamma friends etc > are important for enlightement. S: Yes, akusala conditions more akusala. But can akusala be vigilant? Does kusala necessarily arise to `consider the six senses more' after seeing in principle, the danger of akusala? Do you forget what you were discussing recently about `guarding the five sense doors and mind'? Does zeal last? Is it self? And if zeal arose and one ponders dhamma and discusses with wise friends, is panna surely going to increase? Is panna dependent on the zeal or on accumulated panna? Once when asked about `wise friends' , K. Sujin responded by saying that one should oneself try to be the wise friend! One implication of this as I see it, is that one will find what one is looking for, so it would be wrong to focus on how others are. However with one's own views straightened, one's chance of coming upon the truly wise friend increases. Of course one could be entirely wrong, but this is not the point. And what in fact in the ultimate sense is the `wise friend'? One's own panna cetasika! Why I mention this, is that ultimately, going right or wrong depends entirely the panna of this present moment, be it on the level of interacting with others, or of understanding realities. The wrong focus leads to the wrong way. > k: Wrong view is a threat to satipathanna but inertia is also a threat > to satipatthana. Satipatthana will not arise on its own without one > consider dhamma. S: There is only right or wrong effort, no question of inertia. Can one arouse right effort by resolving to guard the senses? What are the conditions for satipatthana? No dhamma arises without the appropriate conditions coming together. > k: Then why I said dont be fooled by conditions > because if one does not see conditions as this not mine, not I not > myself, one fall into the trap. There is a suble difference in all > are just conditions and all conditions are not mine, not I and not > myself. S: I think I understand the point you are making, and I agree about the difference. But then the difference is not only there, but also between any two moments of understanding. Such that one may repeat to oneself that "this not mine, not I, not myself" on two separate occasions, yet the understanding would be different. And on the other hand, one could be saying that `all are just conditions' with deep understanding. In the end, there are no `magic words'. And we *do* almost always get `fooled', this being the function of `avijja'. ;-) > k: When one see conditions and refuse to reflect further on its > characteristics because of fear of it being thought as thinking > rather than sati then it another unwise thing to do. Because only by > reflecting it as anatta, again and again, then will these conditions > will be known as it is. Yes we can say that by thinking it is full > of false sense of self view. But if one does not ponder on anatta, > one will not understand it. It is at times difficult to explain this > subtle difference. S: Ken, I think it is better to remember Azita's `patience, courage and good cheer', than to try to force `reflection'. None of us have any choice about whether or not there will be sati and panna. The journey is difficult, but we can't hasten it. I accept your point about `excuse', but the important thing is to "know" it, not feel driven to *do* something about it. > K: No Sukin, you can never stop these activities until panna is > strong enough. Only when we study more and more dhamma, then we > automatically stop it. Dont even need a sila to control it. You got > two choice (conventionally before Sarah said about choice again), > either you consider more and more dhamma or you continue doing what > you like. S: Or have patience, courage and good cheer. ;-) And that could be an instance of understanding, no? (of the puthujana kind of course). > k: If I read suttas about this is not me, not I not myself > can condition a false sense of self, then I be better off betting on > it than going on to do what I like just because it is condition so we > should be like that. If consider dhamma through reading of sutta is a > wrong view, then I will rather bet on it than rather let my > conditions overcome me. ;-). S: Have you been influenced by Victor? ;-) ;-). Of course I agree with you that giving in to one's desires is bad. But why should you believe that there can be no understanding at anytime? Remember, even the Sotapana and Sakadagami have no choice with regard to lobha for sensual things. I expect that you will say something like, "Sukin, I understand you, but you don't understand me!" So now it is you who will have to summon up the effort to explain better. But isn't this also a good exercise? Sorry for the length of this post. Hopefully it will not be as long next time. ;-) Metta, Sukin 31183 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Icaro, > So, You want to learn Brazuca's Dialect!!!!! > Ah! That's a challenge!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- :-) As you can see, I have just modified the heading in my reply to Ken O. But this one I maintain, because I don't even know what Brazuca means. :-( Anyway recently I saw an excellent film from your country, "City of Gods". Is it really true what they show in that movie?!! --- --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I get some conversation primers on Hindi (Hindustani) and Urdu. My > retailer could find me also Hipocrene Series Gujarati's, Tamil's, > Malay's and so on. > When I was trying to carry on my PhD grade on National Observatory > of Rio de Janeiro I had got a lecturer which native's tongue were > malay!!! Very funny!!! > Not I am with the Military Personnel... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- I am not surprised….. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > I am looking forward for your CDs!!! > May I Ask you, Sukin, what's your native language ??? > > > Mettaya, Ícaro --------------------------------------------------------------------- I've always had bad verbal skills, so in daily life, I mix Thai, English and Hindi. And I am embarrassed to admit that I can't even speak my mother tongue, Punjabi. :-/ Your CDs have been shipped since last Saturday. I sent them by registered airmail instead of Express mail, to save cost. But I expect that you will receive them in less than two weeks. There are a couple of surprises in the package which I hope you will like. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 31184 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Ken H and (Michael) > > Not discussing this issue with you, when I read you have two teeth > extracted, it reminds me of my injection (four short injections). > The second was painful but amazing when the painful feeling is known > as "not me, myself or I", there is pain but the feeling of I feeling > pain is not there. A sense of detachment was there. The pain become > bearable. The pain is just another fleeting moment that is > experience. > > Hi Ken O, I followed a different method and it worked just as well. On my way to the surgery, I happened to consider the dentist's feelings. Dentists must dread pulling teeth – not only is it traumatic, it also means the loss of some valuable chewing equipment and, for steak lovers like myself, that can be very depressing. Why should I show my depression? It is clearly not the dentist's fault that I didn't look after my teeth; why should he have to feel bad about it? That moment of thoughtful good will worked a treat: I was bright and cheerful – even made some passably funny remarks. I didn't wince or whine at the painful bits, nor did I look for sympathy. At the end of it all, the dentist said twice, "You were very good." So it worked out well for both of us. And the credit goes to understanding kusala – not, dare I say, to any technique of observing pain. :-) (By the way I realise you weren't proposing any artificial `technique.' In your case, what saved you was your accumulated understanding (from your studies and experience) that pain was a mere, fleeting, impersonal nama.) Kind regards, Ken H 31185 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin > S: Zeal is not the only possible outcome of a moment of rt. > understanding. And even if it did arise, who is to say what will > follow immediately? k: this is not what I say, check the sutta text and you find many references that consideration of dhamma condition zeal ;-). > S: I think it is dangerous to characterize oneself as this or that. > > It is quite unlikely that we will know exactly. Moreover right or > wrong, there is never any reason to follow any prescribed path or > even have any inclination to prefer one over the other, I think. > Btw, what are these four kinds of undertaking? Any Suttas? k: No it is not dangerous because one know one weaknesses. It is more dangerous not to know one weaknesses or blemishes. Even though we can say such clinging of weaknesses or blemishes will pertain to a self, to me it is not. Presently I give you two sutta references, MN 45 - Culadhammasamadana Sutta and MN 46 - Mahaculadhammasamadana Sutta on the four undertakings, there are more just that I could not find it now. > S: A limit for what? Can we control conditions? What is sila if > not `restraint' at the moment when the opportunity arises? Can we > carry sila over to consequent moments? What would this imply? > Beside there can be restraint with a sense of self, or there can be > satipatthana of that moment. And when satipatthana does arise, then > the sila is already perfect. K: Does it mean that since we cannot control conditions and we let all hell break lose. Precepts are limits to remind us. It is up to our panna or wise attention of dhamma to follow it. It we think hey who cares about such precepts then Buddha in the first place do not have it at all ;-). In the meantime when satipatthana is yet perfected, intellectual understanding of it is being important. Buddha never say we should follow sila till perfection for wordlings because he knows it is not possible for one's that has a weak panna. > S: And Samatha, Dana and Sila can't be satipatthana either, so > what? Panna cannot know itself or the accompanying cetasikas, but in the following moment anything can be known. During speech anything can be the object of satipatthana, the `intention', or `speech > intimation', or `dosa' or `moha' or `sound'. Yes akusala can't be > kusala and satipatthana is only kusala. But anything can be natural > decisive support condition for satipatthana in the moment that > follows, as you indicate below. K: Sila is not saitpatthana but it is kusala, do you prefer in akusala behaviour that conditioned tendecies or ... > > S: So what you are saying is that if the panna is too weak to > condition restraint for more than a moment, it would be wise then > to summon up energy to restraint anyway. This you say can be done with a level of wisdom not of satipatthana, but kusala nevertheless. > Like I said above, anything can be decisive support condition for > satipatthana, but I would also caution, that lobha and wrong view > can be conditioned anytime. So if indeed there is sila in the > following moment and one stops talking, even this can be known. > However you would agree that just keeping sila is not preferable to satipatthana which can arise at anytime. There is always a danger > of lobha attaching to the idea of keeping sila, and this I believe can make it equally difficult, if not more, for panna of satipatthana > to arise. Besides, the very idea of keeping sila because of fear of > inherent tendencies can be due to an attachment to self. k: As I say, dont be trap by conditions. Just because we fear there is a self to follow sila, we get all wrap up. No it should be that way. Sila can be follow if and only if we consider dhamma to condition panna. As I say sila is a reminder, it act as a consideration for wise attention, it act as a naturaly support for panna. When view in such a way, then sila can be say follow in tandem with satipatthana. Just like Buddha say do speak false speech, in the act of doing or finishing doing or before doing, panna arise, then sila is follow. But sometimes panna is weak sila is follow with pain. Sila cannot be follow without understanding the root conditions of the ten unwholesome behaviour. > I am also thinking now, about how identification wrongly with any > particular aspect of the Teachings can condition self view and > hence lead to wrong practice. k: If you do not idendification yourself what is wholesome, so can you get rid of akusala. I think it is naive to think that by learning dhamma we do not indentify. This moment of learning dhamma is already an identification. When you read Abdhidhamma do you indentify yourself with it, if not how do you practise, what is your basis of practise? the crux is we know such indenfication is not self, it act on its own by conditions and not cling to it. > > S: Yes, akusala conditions more akusala. But can akusala be > vigilant? Does kusala necessarily arise to `consider the six senses >> more' after seeing in principle, the danger of akusala? k: if one do not see the danger of akusala, there is no way zeal will arise. That is why, our sloth and topor always condition unprompted lobha and dosa. And what in fact in the ultimate sense is the `wise friend'? One's own panna cetasika! k: That is technical answer. Depends, it can be both ways > > S: There is only right or wrong effort, no question of inertia. Can > one arouse right effort by resolving to guard the senses? What are > the conditions for satipatthana? No dhamma arises without the > appropriate conditions coming together. k: You sure there is no inertia, tell me about sloth and topor then ;-). No dhamma arise without the approprate conditions, but do you wish appropriate aksuala just because we think it should let conditions run on its own. I think I have to make myself clear, there is no way one can be holy by trying to be holy. What I say is consider dhamma more and more if you can by reading the texts, that is the gist of what I am saying. Just because our panna is weak now, we sit down and let akusala rule over us. > > S: I think I understand the point you are making, and I agree about > > the difference. But then the difference is not only there, but also > > between any two moments of understanding. Such that one may repeat > to oneself that "this not mine, not I, not myself" on two separate > occasions, yet the understanding would be different. And on the > other hand, one could be saying that `all are just conditions' with > > deep understanding. In the end, there are no `magic words'. And we > *do* almost always get `fooled', this being the function > of `avijja'. ;-) k: No it is explicitly said in the sutta text. There is no way one will learn anatta just by let conditions do their job. It should be investigate, ponder upon or reflect on by this principle on conditions then it will take effect. The conditions will be understood, then the danger on seeling akusala will condition zeal to arise. Dont worry about thinking in this stage, which worldings do not think now. Our understanding is also in the thinking stage now. Even the understanding of three unwholesome root are also in the thinking stage. So dont worry about pondering over it, in fact it is beneficial to ponder over it, over its danger. No use cutting thinking because one cannot stop thinking. > S: Ken, I think it is better to remember Azita's `patience, courage and good cheer', than to try to force `reflection'. None of us have > any choice about whether or not there will be sati and panna. The > journey is difficult, but we can't hasten it. I accept your point > about `excuse', but the important thing is to "know" it, not feel > driven to *do* something about it. k: To say none of us has any choice but follow conditions is to me to say let all hell break lose. The difference about anatta is that none of us can control conditions, but it does not say that we cannot do anything about it. Or not what is the point of reading the texts. When we read the text, citta reflects, citta consider, then when this accumulated, panna will be strengthened. We have to constantly reflect, remind ourselves, if we say let conditions do their job, then we must as well dont read the text at all ;-). That is what I meant, read the text more, spend more time on it, one when one ponders, one arouse zeal, when one reflect, panna will arise on its own. Ken O 31186 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken H Definitely I will not reinvent the wheel. This three short words is the "not me, I or myself" is the most powerful psychological tools that I have know of. It cures all mental pain ;-). I have use it many time and it cures all the grief successfully and I am deeply grateful that Buddha taught it. Your goodwill method is described as the sublime abiding here and now. There are many benefits with it. Keep it up. I used it also when I was having my day surgery on removing a small lump (that is why four injections). I was cheeful, joking with the surgeon and also her assistants and emphatize with their working schedule and thank every one of them when I leave. Overall it is a wonderful experience in the surgery. At times, during the surgery, fear arise and the three little words make their wonder ;-) Ken O 31187 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group Hi LaVerne, --- LaVerne Lenhart wrote: > Hi. I am new to your group and I am very interested in getting started. > Is there a particular spot for a beginner?? I have studied Metaphysics > for many years. Are there any particular websites to begin???? Thanks > so much, ..... Welcome to DSG and for getting started with these good questions. As I mentioned the other day to Doret, I think that often the best way for newbies to get started here is by asking questions in a new thread under your own subject title. She has done just this and is receiving many varied and helpful replies. In the beginning, I’d suggest skipping posts that are too technical or difficult to follow, such as the Visuddhimagga ones, unless you have some abhidhamma knowledge. We all have our favourite websites. I have these links handy and I’d personally recommend any of the materials on these : http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ You’ll see there are many books by Nina Van Gorkom who contributes here. You could start with ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ and raise any questions or comments. Also, please see the posts from the archives under “New to the List” in Useful Posts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts LaVerne, we’d be interested to hear where you live and anything else you wish to share. Metta, Sarah p.s We ask everyone here to trim posts of all material, inc. yahoo blurb, not required for the answer. ========== 31188 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Hi Dharmajim, Let me join Azita in welcoming you too and saying your intro here was most inspiring. --- dharmajim wrote: > Good Friends: > I'm new here. The discussion is very helpful. I'm not quite up to > speed on a lot of the Pali terms, but I like an environment where > they are used enough that I can begin to get a feel for them. .... I’m sure you’re being modest too. It might be helpful to have the Pali glossary from the files printed out beside the computer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Also, these are handy links as I’m sure you’re aware: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html .... <...> Dj:> About two years ago, after some 30 years of practice, I decided to > try again and read the Dhammasangani (in translation, I don't know > Pali). Nyanaponika's Introduction was helpful in getting me past > initial discomforts. What amazed me was that this time I found it > beautiful, scintillating, even lyrical. I was amazed at the > meticulousness, the wealth of detail and insight. It is one of the > great monuments to human consciousness. .... You’ll be a friend of Icaro’s for life;-) [sorry, that’s a joke - it’s his favourite text too, though he reads the Pali]. I don’t know if you have the Atthasalini (translated as the ‘Expositor’) as well. It’s really useful and very reader-friendly. The PTS translation of the Sammohavinodani is the greatest gem;-) Many of us also refer a LOT here to B.Bodhi’s CMA. This is the translation of the Abhidammattha Sangaha with guide notes. I think you’d find it helpful alongside the Dhammasangani. And as an excellent intro the Abhidhamma, pls look at Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ if you haven’t already. A couple of people here are reading it at present and asking questions that arise. (It’s on the websites I just gave in my last post). .... Dj: > In some ways I think of it as similar to something like > Euclid's "Elements"; only the scope of the subject matter is much > broader and the detail is much finer. The comparison I am making > has to do with rigor and drawing out implications in a systematic > way. > > So for some of us it takes a long time for our minds to open to > Abhidhamma. If I hadn't practiced regularly for those decades I > would not have had the patience to absorb a small part of its beauty. ..... Dharmajim, some of us, like Nina, Icaro, myself and others, would be very glad if you’d share any lines you find particularly inspiring or meaningful anytime. Also if you’d care to let us know where you live or anything else,we’d be glad. I think you'll find the Visuddhimagga thread interesting too. Larry, Nina and others will be delighted if you join in this (or any other threads) with any qus or comments anytime. Metta, Sarah ===== 31189 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:43am Subject: Self-view - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.11 Dear Group, This is about self-view - but has a strange ending. "Then Ven. Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was gone for good and never returned. " I wonder why ... Ven. Bodhi quotes the commentary: "Neither Spk nor Spk-pt gives an explanation for his sudden departure. He may have seen the danger in fame and honour and preferred to dwell in complete anonymity." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- § 2.11. On one occasion a large number of senior monks were living near Macchikasanda in the Wild Mango Grove. Then Citta the householder [1] went to them and, on arrival, having bowed down to them, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them: "Venerable sirs, may the senior monks acquiesce to tomorrow's meal from me." The senior monks acquiesced by silence. Then Citta the householder, sensing the senior monks' acquiescence, got up from his seat and, having bowed down to them, circumambulated them -- keeping them to his right -- and left. When the night had passed, the senior monks put on their robes in the early morning and -- taking their bowls & outer robes -- went to Citta's residence. There they sat down on the appointed seats. Citta the householder went to them and, having bowed down to them, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the most senior monk: "Venerable sir, concerning the various views that arise in the world - - 'The cosmos is eternal' or 'The cosmos isn't eternal'; 'The cosmos is finite' or 'The cosmos is infinite'; 'The soul and the body are the same' or 'The soul is one thing, the body another'; 'A Tathagata exists after death' or 'A Tathagata doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata both exists & doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death'; these along with the sixty-two views mentioned in the Brahmajala [DN 1] -- when what is present do these views come into being, and when what is absent do they not come into being?" When this was said, the senior monk was silent. A second time... A third time Citta the householder asked, "Concerning the various views that arise in the world... when what is present do they come into being, and what is absent do they not come into being?" A third time the senior monk was silent. Now on that occasion Ven. Isidatta was the most junior of all the monks in that Community. Then he said to the senior monk: "Allow me, venerable sir, to answer Citta the householder's question." "Go ahead & answer it, friend Isidatta." "Now, householder, are you asking this: 'Concerning the various views that arise in the world... when what is present do they come into being, and what is absent do they not come into being?'?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Concerning the various views that arise in the world, householder... when self-identity view is present, these views come into being; when self-identity view is absent, they don't come into being." "But, venerable sir, how does self-identity view come into being?" "There is the case, householder, where an uninstructed, run-of-the- mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes apperception to be the self, or the self as possessing apperception, or apperception as in the self, or the self as in apperception. He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identity view comes into being." "And, venerable sir, how does self-identity view not come into being?" "There is the case, householder, where a well-instructed noble disciple -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... He does not assume apperception to be the self... He does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self- identity view does not come into being." "Venerable sir, where does Master Isidatta come from?" "I come from Avanti, householder." "There is, venerable sir, a clansman from Avanti named Isidatta, an unseen friend of mine, who has gone forth. Have you ever seen him?" "Yes, householder." "Where is he living now, venerable sir?" When this was said, the Venerable Isidatta was silent. "Are you my Isidatta?" "Yes, householder." "Then may Master Isidatta delight in the charming Wild Mango Grove at Macchikasanda. I will be responsible for your robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medicinal requisites." "That is admirably said, householder." Then Citta the householder -- having delighted & rejoiced in the Venerable Isidatta's words -- with his own hand served & satisfied the senior monks with choice staple & non-staple foods. When the senior monks had finished eating and had removed their hands from their bowls, they got up from their seats and left. Then the most senior monk said to the Venerable Isidatta: "It was excellent, friend Isidatta, the way that question inspired you to answer. It didn't inspire an answer in me at all. Whenever a similar question comes up again, may it inspire you to answer as you did just now." Then Ven. Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was gone for good and never returned. [SN XLI.3] Note: 1. Citta the householder was a lay non-returner who had a fondness for posing difficult questions to monks.(Thanissaro) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31190 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: Self-view - Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.11 Dear Group, I found a little more on Isidatta: "1. Isidatta.-A thera. He was the son of a caravan guide at Vaddhagáma (v.l. Velugáma) in Avanti. By correspondence he became the unseen friend of Citta-gahapati of Macchikásanda. The latter once sent him a letter regarding the excellences of the Buddha, and Isidatta, being pleased with the account given of the Buddha's religion, entered the Order under Mahá-Kaccána and in due course became an arahant. Later, with Mahá-Kaccána's leave, he visited the Buddha in the Majjhimadesa and was warmly received by him (ThagA.i.238). A verse uttered by Isidatta, in response to the Buddha's enquiry regarding his welfare, is recorded in the Therágáthá (v.120). Isidatta had been a householder in the time of Vipassí Buddha and once, having seen the Buddha walking along the street and being pleased with his demeanour, he gave him an ámoda-fruit (ThagA. loc. cit.). He is, probably, identical with Amodapaliya of the Apadána (ii.447). According to the Samyutta Nikáya (iv.283-8, also AA.i.210), Isidatta was once staying with a number of senior monks at Macchikásanda in the Ambátaka grove. Citta-gahapati invited the monks to a meal. On this occasion Citta asked a question regarding the Buddha's teaching on the diversity of the elements. The chief Elder, being unable to answer, remained silent. Isidatta, though the most junior of the whole company, obtained the chief Elder's permission, and answered the question to the satisfaction of Citta. Citta likewise asked questions regarding various views, such as the infinity of the world, etc. At the end of the discourse, Citta discovered, by accident, that the Elder who had preached to him was none other than his unseen friend, Isidatta. Delighted with the discovery, he invited Isidatta to spend his time at a Macchikásanda, promising to provide him with all requisites. But that same day Isidatta left Macchikásanda and never returned. Because, says Buddhaghosa (AA.i.210), he did not wish to stay after having been recognised." http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/i_/isidatta.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > This is about self-view - but has a strange ending. "Then Ven. > Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & > robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was > gone for good and never returned. " I wonder why ... 31191 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Philip, (James, KenO , Howard, Doret and All), I have some hesitation about writing this post, but as you’ve made similar comments a couple of times, it might be helpful: P: >”....dojo yaburi - bursting into another tradtion's dojo (practice place in martial arts) to try to prove that your way is better...”< S: Perhaps you or others also wonder why we allow or even respond to such ‘bursts’ and it’s true that any list has to be mindful of the effect on all members and the general harmony. As you point out, we may all still be ignorant worldlings, but I don’t think any of us here has any idea of a closed ‘dojo’ and just wish to share what we can from the Dhamma-Vinaya, grateful to those who have also shared their limited knowledge with us. .... P:> Nevertheless, you surely "really help" others. > For example, I think of how much radically important guidance I've > received in the 3 weeks or so since I came here. It hasn't gotten me > out of prison, but it has surely shown me that I was trying to get > out the wrong way. .... S: This is the point, I think. We can assist each other to find the right way to get out of prison, even if we’re still locked inside ourselves;-). Sometimes whilst writing to those with very different views, I learn a lot too, like in all the long discussions with Michael. Even assuming for a moment that ‘our’ understanding of Abhidhamma is correct and ‘their’ understanding and emphasis is wrong, I like to reflect on the great compassion shown by the Buddha and his disciples -- not that we can ever emulate even a speck of this, of course. ..... James posted an extract from the Mahaasaccaka Sutta with useful comments (no 31081). He prompted me to read the sutta in full and I was reflecting on this theme of sharing any knowledge we have without being deterred by any blame. Ananda tells the Buddha that ‘Saccaka the Nigantha’s son, a debater and a clever speaker regarded by many as a saint’ is coming to ‘discredit the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.’ Out of compassion, Ananda requests the Buddha to see him and speak to him. [For KenO: “Then Saccaka the Nigantha’s son went up to the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. when this courteous and amiable talk was finished, he sat down at one side....”] Saccaka expresses his wrong views at length, giving his criticisms of the Triple Gem in the process. The Buddha responds with his explanations of the real meaning of ‘developed in body and developed in mind’ as James posted. [Howard, he was following Saccaka’s wording - replacing ‘developing in body’ as referring to ascetic practices as Saccaka spoke of and instead referred to insight]. The Buddha says: “Surely, Aggivessana, your words are offensive and discourteous, but still I will answer you.” .... S: Of course, there’s no rule at all that we do the same and we all just make our own judgment calls according to our very limited knowledge. At the end, Saccaka said: “It is wonderful, Master Gotama, it is marvellous how when Master Gotama is spoken to offensively again and again, assailed by discourteous courses of speech, the colour of his skin brightens and the colour of his face clears, as is to be expected of one who is accomplished and fully enlightened. I recall, Master Gotama, engaging Purana Kassapa [and many other names given later] in debate, and then he prevaricated, led the talk aside, and showed anger, hate, and bitterness. But when Master gotama is spoken to offensively again and again, assaulted by discourteous......etc [as above]”. .... S: We’ve been talking about metta and of course we all have our ‘buttons’ as Chris pointed out and any response (or lack of) depends on the usual conditions. Still, I find it helpful to reflect on these examples as a reminder for metta and patience. Did Saccaka become an arahant on the spot? No. In fact according to the commentary note he ‘did not reach any attainment or even become established in the Three Refuges.’ The Buddha ‘taught him two long suttas in order to deposit in him a mental impression (vaasanaa) coming to maturity in the future. For he foresaw that at a later time, after the Dispensation became established in Sri lanka, Saccaka would be reborn there and would attain arahantship as the great arahant, Kala Buddharakkhita Thera.’ So I think we’re all just helping to deposit mental impressions here, according to our understandings and inclinations which may bear fruit later, even if we’re scolded for our efforts now. Naturally, with greater insight, we will all help each other more wisely in future, just as Doret will do with the prisoners, her husband and others in need of assistance. Metta, Sarah ===== 31192 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Dear Sukin > Anyway recently I saw an excellent film from your country, "City of > Gods". Is it really true what they show in that movie?!! > --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately, Sukin, City of Gods is only ONE of many, many lumpem bad quarters of Rio. Reality here is much worse than showed on movie... --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I've always had bad verbal skills, so in daily life, I mix Thai, > English and Hindi. And I am embarrassed to admit that I can't even > speak my mother tongue, Punjabi. :-/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Heh!!!! Sometimes I feel tempted to carry on studies at many languages... I am trying to focusing now on Pali, Hebrew and Arabic, but only at simple reading level: full speaking of any language demands time and patience. I got primers on Hindi, Urdu and Thai, but I will only take hand on them at my intended travel to Bangkok to meet you all! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Your CDs have been shipped since last Saturday. I sent them by > registered airmail instead of Express mail, to save cost. But I > expect that you will receive them in less than two weeks. > There are a couple of surprises in the package which I hope you will > like. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It will take time! Mettaya, Ícaro 31193 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reflections on Upadhi Hi Andrew, (Nina & Ken H), I'm sure it's a busy and demanding time with your father-in-law and he's very blessed to have you and Sandra care for him at this time. Like Nina, I'd really like to encourage you to skip mails of no interest and keep up your occasional fine questions and witty challenging of Ken H when he goes that step too far (even if it's in my good company, LOL). Hope you can just keep a foot in on DSG, but in any case very best wishes to you and Sandra at this time. Metta, Sarah p.s KenH, can't you find just the right 'carrot' to keep encouraging him? ===== > > As a matter of fact, I will be taking a break from my > > various email groups for a while. Hope to catch up with you all some > > time in the future. 31194 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello Sarah, and all. > P: >?E...dojo yaburi - bursting into another tradtion's dojo (practice > place in martial arts) to try to prove that your way is better...?E lt; > > S: (snip)it's true that any list has to be mindful of the effect on > all members and the general harmony. Ph: Very peculiar behaviour on my part, that. Why would a newcomer take on the duty of policing people's behaviour here? Quite bizarre, but life is comical at times. I think it has something to do with the impact on my psyche of discovering the Abhidhamma. Perhaps "Philip" sensed that all the little ploys he has developed over the years to protect his cherished self-image were about to be stripped bare, and acted up accordingly. It reminds me of what Meister Eckhart, the Christian mystic, said comparing the process of giving up one's sense of individual self to a greater truth. He compared it to throwing a piece of wood on a fire. At first the wood crackles and pops and makes a lot of noise, then it calms down as the wood essence unites with the fire essence. Finding the Abdhidhamma thrilled me at first, but now it's got me a bit edgy, because I sense all the ways I've been seeing things were wrong understanding. Letting go of comforting concepts ain't easy, so I probably won't let go of them right away. But rather than cling to them blindly I will be holding on to them gingerly. In any case, I truly am confident that I won't be misbehaving here any more. No reason to be confident of that, I suppose, but I do regret any disharmony I caused you (and the silly thing is that I caused it to you and others here more than the people I was having a go at!) That regret - I think there is a kusala having to do with "moral shame"- will condition restrain, I believe. Also, worldy concerns are catching up with me so I won't be babbling here quite as much in the weeks to come. Yeah, right...I said that last week. :) S:> As you point out, we may all still be ignorant worldlings, but I don > think any of us here has any idea of a closed dojo?Eand just wish to > share what we can from the Dhamma-Vinaya, grateful to those who have also > shared their limited knowledge with us. Ph: Since my knowledge is more limited than anyone else here, I am relieved to read this! Did I say ignorant worldlings"? Is there nothing in between "enlightened" and "ignorant worldings?" I guess I thought James' statement about only the enlightened being able to truly liberate others was a bit paradoxical -it made me wonder what we are all doing here, since presumably we -even Nina - are not enlightened yet. But maybe "enlightened" is a word I equate incorrectly with being an arahant. Reading Nina's Paramis book this afternoon I found this from the introduction: "Those who have attained enlightenment can be the 'good friend in Dhamma' to others. They can be of much help to others, not only through words, but above all through the application of the Dhamma in life...(snip) The Ariyan who has developed direct knowedge of realities can explain the Dhamma to other more clearly than the non- ariyan and he can truly help other to develop the eightfold path leading to enlightenment." So this "ariyan" is an enlightened person, I take it. It's a term I'm not yet familiar with. I misunderstood that only the arahant would be considered enlightened. In any case, I would appreciate a STORY OVER stamp on my recent behaviour. Harmony is something I usually value greatly- maybe that's a result of having lived in Japan for so long- and I will be keeping my mouth shut to protect it. Metta, Phil 31195 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, Sukin: First of all, let us be reminded about what started this discussion in the first place. It was about whether certain situations and activities should be avoided, because these were judged as unwholesome and therefore made it difficult if not impossible to develop satipatthana. I guess that I got sidetracked, lost direction and instead was lead to discuss sila. Hope you don't mind getting lost with me.;-) > S: Zeal is not the only possible outcome of a moment of rt. > understanding. And even if it did arise, who is to say what will > follow immediately? k: this is not what I say, check the sutta text and you find many references that consideration of dhamma condition zeal ;-). Sukin: But zeal towards what? You are saying zeal to disengage from certain activities. I don't know what particular Suttas you are referring to, but my guess is that the zeal is toward the Dhamma itself. What aspect of it and on what level, study, consideration or application depends on conditions, no? > S: I think it is dangerous to characterize oneself as this or that. > > It is quite unlikely that we will know exactly. Moreover right or > wrong, there is never any reason to follow any prescribed path or > even have any inclination to prefer one over the other, I think. > Btw, what are these four kinds of undertaking? Any Suttas? k: No it is not dangerous because one know one weaknesses. It is more dangerous not to know one weaknesses or blemishes. Sukin: But you were talking about `belonging to the third kind of undertaking'? This is different, no? Recently there was a discussion about the Buddha as being the only person able to `measure' people, I think it applies to each person measuring himself too, wouldn't you think so? Especially, knowing that we are puthujanas? K: Even though we can say such clinging of weaknesses or blemishes will pertain to a self, to me it is not. Presently I give you two sutta references, MN 45 - Culadhammasamadana Sutta and MN 46 – Mahaculadhammasamadana Sutta on the four undertakings, there are more just that I could not find it now. Sukin: I quickly read through the Culadhammasamadana Sutta, my impression is that none of the four types referred to, involved practicing satipatthana. And if you are comparing the first type of individual with what I am professing, then you are wrong. I do not say "go and enjoy yourself". But "do what you do, but also develop wisdom". And this development of wisdom does include among other things, knowledge of kusala and akusala. So there *is* intellectual knowledge of the harm of akusala and the benefit of kusala. However, how and when panna is conditioned, you and I can't know. A person may for an instant lie (breaking the precept), but who knows, the next moment hiri and ottappa may arise to such a level that deep insight can occur!! So in fact breaking the precept was decisive support condition for that deep insight!! What if he had been overly concerned about keeping sila, would that have been the natural decisive support condition? > S: A limit for what? Can we control conditions? What is sila if > not `restraint' at the moment when the opportunity arises? Can we > carry sila over to consequent moments? What would this imply? > Beside there can be restraint with a sense of self, or there can be > satipatthana of that moment. And when satipatthana does arise, then > the sila is already perfect. K: Does it mean that since we cannot control conditions and we let all hell break lose. Sukin: NO, Ken. A person who understands dhamma enough may indulge in sense pleasures from time to time, but it is very unlikely that `hell can break lose'. And even if it did, it would have been against his better judgement, and his accumulated panna does not decrease. So anytime following this, there can be kusala reflection and satipatthana. No problem at all. K: Precepts are limits to remind us. It is up to our panna or wise attention of dhamma to follow it. It we think hey who cares about such precepts then Buddha in the first place do not have it at all ;-). In the meantime when satipatthana is yet perfected, intellectual understanding of it is being important. Buddha never say we should follow sila till perfection for wordlings because he knows it is not possible for one's that has a weak panna. Sukin: Seeing the value of precept would be an instance of panna of a certain level, saying,"Who cares about such precepts" is foolishness. Did I say otherwise? > S: And Samatha, Dana and Sila can't be satipatthana either, so > what? Panna cannot know itself or the accompanying cetasikas, but in the following moment anything can be known. During speech anything can be the object of satipatthana, the `intention', or `speech > intimation', or `dosa' or `moha' or `sound'. Yes akusala can't be > kusala and satipatthana is only kusala. But anything can be natural > decisive support condition for satipatthana in the moment that > follows, as you indicate below. K: Sila is not saitpatthana but it is kusala, do you prefer in akusala behaviour that conditioned tendecies or ... Sukin: I prefer straightening my views and risk going to hell a few times even, than to aim for good rebirth without any right view. k: As I say, dont be trap by conditions. Just because we fear there is a self to follow sila, we get all wrap up. No it should be that way. Sila can be follow if and only if we consider dhamma to condition panna. As I say sila is a reminder, it act as a consideration for wise attention, it act as a naturaly support for panna. When view in such a way, then sila can be say follow in tandem with satipatthana. Just like Buddha say do speak false speech, in the act of doing or finishing doing or before doing, panna arise, then sila is follow. But sometimes panna is weak sila is follow with pain. Sila cannot be follow without understanding the root conditions of the ten unwholesome behaviour. Sukin: Yes sila can be object of wise reflection, and all kinds of kusala are helpful. And yes, sila can be practiced in tandem with satipatthana and they support one another. But you are saying to the effect, that if one were to be following the Buddha's teachings, then one must try to keep sila even if it meant suppression. Would that really be following the Buddha's teachings, especially when we believe in satipatthana? > I am also thinking now, about how identification wrongly with any > particular aspect of the Teachings can condition self view and > hence lead to wrong practice. k: If you do not idendification yourself what is wholesome, so can you get rid of akusala. I think it is naive to think that by learning dhamma we do not indentify. This moment of learning dhamma is already an identification. When you read Abdhidhamma do you indentify yourself with it, if not how do you practise, what is your basis of practise? the crux is we know such indenfication is not self, it act on its own by conditions and not cling to it. Sukin: Firstly, there is not always "self-reference" when considering dhamma. There will be many moments when one does it, and like you said, this can be known as not-self. Secondly, I was talking about `wrong identification', and here I meant, like thinking in terms of a particular dhamma, that one should develop say particularly more patience, or more metta, or trying to figure out what one's caritta for example is. This is encouraging of self view and conditions practices that are wrong. But of course, even this can be seen as conditioned, like your insistence on `sila' ;-). > > S: Yes, akusala conditions more akusala. But can akusala be > vigilant? Does kusala necessarily arise to `consider the six senses >> more' after seeing in principle, the danger of akusala? k: if one do not see the danger of akusala, there is no way zeal will arise. That is why, our sloth and topor always condition unprompted lobha and dosa. Sukin: I agree, and thanks for this explanation. ;-) > S: There is only right or wrong effort, no question of inertia. Can > one arouse right effort by resolving to guard the senses? What are > the conditions for satipatthana? No dhamma arises without the > appropriate conditions coming together. k: You sure there is no inertia, tell me about sloth and topor then ;-). Sukin: OK, so you mean this. K: No dhamma arise without the approprate conditions, but do you wish appropriate aksuala just because we think it should let conditions run on its own. I think I have to make myself clear, there is no way one can be holy by trying to be holy. What I say is consider dhamma more and more if you can by reading the texts, that is the gist of what I am saying. Just because our panna is weak now, we sit down and let akusala rule over us. Sukin: I may be misunderstanding you Ken, but I think you are leaning toward seeing a `person as walking a path'. Which is why you presuppose panna or lack of and therefore you are prescribing certain activities, here, `reading dhamma books' as against other things. I am trying to show you that reading the dhamma, understanding it, indulging in sense pleasures are all conditioned activities and there is `no one' who does those things, so no one who makes any choice to do anything else. Sense pleasure can as much be an object of insight as anything else. To think otherwise is limiting the scope of satipatthana and makes it even harder to develop, and worse, can condition wrong view too. > S: I think I understand the point you are making, and I agree about > > the difference. But then the difference is not only there, but also > > between any two moments of understanding. Such that one may repeat > to oneself that "this not mine, not I, not myself" on two separate > occasions, yet the understanding would be different. And on the > other hand, one could be saying that `all are just conditions' with > > deep understanding. In the end, there are no `magic words'. And we > *do* almost always get `fooled', this being the function > of `avijja'. ;-) k: No it is explicitly said in the sutta text. There is no way one will learn anatta just by let conditions do their job. It should be investigate, ponder upon or reflect on by this principle on conditions then it will take effect. Sukin: Of course, by conditions ;-). K: The conditions will be understood, then the danger on seeling akusala will condition zeal to arise. Dont worry about thinking in this stage, which worldings do not think now. Our understanding is also in the thinking stage now. Even the understanding of three unwholesome root are also in the thinking stage. So dont worry about pondering over it, in fact it is beneficial to ponder over it, over its danger. No use cutting thinking because one cannot stop thinking. Sukin: Agree that when the conditions are right, then the appropriate level of panna will arise to do its job. > S: Ken, I think it is better to remember Azita's `patience, courage and good cheer', than to try to force `reflection'. None of us have > any choice about whether or not there will be sati and panna. The > journey is difficult, but we can't hasten it. I accept your point > about `excuse', but the important thing is to "know" it, not feel > driven to *do* something about it. k: To say none of us has any choice but follow conditions is to me to say let all hell break lose. The difference about anatta is that none of us can control conditions, but it does not say that we cannot do anything about it. Or not what is the point of reading the texts. When we read the text, citta reflects, citta consider, then when this accumulated, panna will be strengthened. We have to constantly reflect, remind ourselves, if we say let conditions do their job, then we must as well dont read the text at all ;-). That is what I meant, read the text more, spend more time on it, one when one ponders, one arouse zeal, when one reflect, panna will arise on its own. Sukin: Are you perhaps confusing your own ability to do these things naturally, with what needs to be done? Whew! another long one. I didn't even go through your post first, but read it as I responded. To everyone else, I apologize for writing such long posts. Hope it doesn't condition any akusala. Metta, Sukin. Ps: Ken, I don't know how to do it, but perhaps you could shorten this?!! 31196 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear James, > > You are absolutely right about not helping others until I have liberated > myself as long as you are talking about personally teaching others. I do not > teach. No, I actually wasn't talking about teaching, I was talking about spending too much time for the benefit of others at the sake of your own benefit. I am having some computer problems and I am writing this away from my printed suttas, but I will relate one story that is found in a sutta. After the Buddha had announced that he was going to pass away into Parinibbana in three months time, his Sangha of monks were very upset. They stayed by his side almost continually, looked after his needs, and gave him offerings of flowers and the such. However, there was one monk who didn't stay by the Buddha's side at all; he stayed by himself, meditating very earnestly, because he wanted to reach Nibbana before the Buddha passed away. The other monks brought this monk before the Buddha (sorry, I can't remember names ;-) and told the Buddha that this monk was being selfish and didn't care about the Buddha because he didn't stay with the Buddha during his final days. This monk explained his reason and the Buddha declared that the monk who was working earnestly toward his Enlightenment was actually honoring him more than all of the other monks who were hanging around him continually and meeting his personal needs. Upon hearing this, the 'selfish' monk became Enlightened. I think the point of this story as it relates to you is apparent. I was not speaking to your level or skill as a Buddhist, I was speaking to what is important to do and what is not. Metta, James 31197 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:24am Subject: Computer Problems--Again! ;-)) Hi All, Well, it seems I have some bad computer kamma! ;-)) The most recent repair of my computer left a small part loose inside the computer. Upon moving the computer today, that part fell against the fan and broke it!! So now I have to get my laptop fixed again. I will be without Internet access for a few days. Due to the number of posts in this group, I probably won't respond to any posts that are posted while I am away. I will announce when I will come back again. Metta, James 31198 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin First of all, I am not saying anything about you. So dont get too excited okay ;-). > Sukin: First of all, let us be reminded about what started this > discussion in the first place. It was about whether certain > situations and activities should be avoided, because these were > judged as unwholesome and therefore made it difficult if not > impossible to develop satipatthana. I guess that I got sidetracked, > lost direction and instead was lead to discuss sila. Hope you don't > mind getting lost with me.;-) k: Dont worry, I always lost in the world of samasara, welcome to the club. No entrance fee needed. > Sukin: But zeal towards what? You are saying zeal to disengage from > certain activities. I don't know what particular Suttas you are > referring to, but my guess is that the zeal is toward the Dhamma > itself. What aspect of it and on what level, study, consideration > or application depends on conditions, no? k: there is no level or whatever study, zeal is just a cetasikas that propel one to study the dhamma. Nothing insidious except though zeal can be akusala also. > > Sukin: But you were talking about `belonging to the third kind of > undertaking'? This is different, no? Recently there was a > discussion about the Buddha as being the only person able to `measure' people, I think it applies to each person measuring himself too, wouldn't you think so? Especially, knowing that we are puthujanas? And if you are comparing the first type of individual with what I am professing, then you are wrong. I do not > say "go and enjoy yourself". k: Ai yah Sukin, it is how I characterize myself, I am not characterizing anyone (what for anyway, I dont own their cittas). It is how I reflect on myself that I have lots of fault/blemishes and what I understake will be painful most of the time due to my weak panna - dont get excited ;-). > However, how and when panna is conditioned, you and I can't know. A person may for an instant lie (breaking the precept), but who knows, the next moment hiri and ottappa may arise to such a level that deep > insight can occur!! So in fact breaking the precept was decisive > support condition for that deep insight!! What if he had been > overly concerned about keeping sila, would that have been the natural decisive support condition? k: dont count on such things really Sukin. That is dangerous. I never bank myself on satipatthana to arise during akusala moments, that will be very difficult. IF you have it, that good. If not I think is best to avoid akusala actions if we are conditioned to act. > > Sukin: NO, Ken. A person who understands dhamma enough may indulge > in sense pleasures from time to time, but it is very unlikely > that `hell can break lose'. K: NO Sukin, that is not what Buddha preach. All is burning - remember that. If one think one can indugle in sensual pleasure because one understand dhamma - that is full of conceit ;-). S: And even if it did, it would have been against his better judgement, and his accumulated panna does not decrease. So anytime following this, there can be kusala reflectio> and satipatthana. No problem at all. K: You forget the other equation, tendecies also accumulated. And that is problem. > Sukin: Seeing the value of precept would be an instance of panna of > > a certain level, saying,"Who cares about such precepts" is > foolishness. Did I say otherwise? K: So what is the stand, do you think precepts important or not important. Is it a limit or not a limit. > Sukin: I prefer straightening my views and risk going to hell a few > times even, than to aim for good rebirth without any right view. K: There is nothing wrong about your view neither did I preach a new view. I just ask you to consider dhamma more. Ponder or reflect more on it, if you have time. I just asking you to be more alert on akusala cittas. Does that amount to a new view? S: But you are saying to the effect, that if one were to be following the Buddha's teachings, then one must try to keep sila even if it meant suppression. K: There is no way to suppress akusala behaviour without panna. > Sukin: Are you perhaps confusing your own ability to do these > things naturally, with what needs to be done? k: No. There is no way a self effort can get rid of not self (i did explain this in another list ;-) ). Just like Buddha say if form is self, then it would not lead to afflictions. > Ps: Ken, I don't know how to do it, but perhaps you could shorten > this?!! K: Yoi Sukin. No way, we are both long winders ;-). Dont worry it is only between us, forget the rest of the people out there. Is our personal Chess game. But it is getting shorter though! Ken O 31199 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:27am Subject: RE: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Andy and Doret A:> why do we have to make a binary choice like this? isn't it > conceivable that we might do both at once? isn't it possible that helping others might be connected with our own progress? k: Definitely if we can do both that is the best ;-). But I always advocate taking of one needs first, for example, if I need to take care of someone that is sick, then I need to ensure myself healthy, full of zeal or not if I fall sick, it make matter worse. D: I have been wavering between continuing my magazine and assisting others, on one hand, and leading a more contemplative life, on the other hand. The first is on behalf of others; the second is what I really want to do for myself. K: Doret, actually you are doing contemplative life just that you do not realise it. When one do things for the sake of others, that is metta, or we called it another way sublime abiding here and now ;-). So cheer up, you are actually practising dhamma just that you have not see it. Practising dhamma is every moment and not trying to be holy. Listening to a phone, talking to your subscribers can be act of practising of dhamma. Dont need to find it elsewhere, it is right inside you, in front of your door step ;-). D: I have been told that Buddha did not advise actually entering the social struggle, e.g. against the death penalty, against war, etc. Is it true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because they focus their attention only inward on liberation? k: Buddha is not interested in politics etc because they are ever changing due to different culture or society, most importantly it is conditioned by the three unwholesome roots. He has to preach something that is universal, that can withstand time and space, that can be applicable to all ways of life, he preach principles in getting rid of unwholesome roots. If everyone follow his principles, then the world is very a peaceful world. Buddha has try to stop war for three times but fulfile because the world will go on in their own ways as human are still estrangled by the three unwholesome roots. When one follow the principles, one tends to become a good citizen, one tend to be compassion to help others, one tend to contribute to the society if one can, that is what I called social engagement in smaller sense ;-). It is not the usual style for Buddhists to tell others or banging loudly to others that they are doing good things, so that is why a lot of people taught we are not socially engaged. That is okay ;-). There are many such small contributors including you ;-) Three cheers for them!!! Ken O p.s. There is no need to justify to others we are socially engaged bc that is conceit. 31200 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear James, Thank you for the excellent clarification. I was pulled two ways. I wanted more time for myself but also did not want to deprive prisoners of help they needed. Explaining the problem here and receiving suggestions allowed me to see more clearly. Meanwhile, the solution was unfolding. Thank you all. With metta, Doret On 3/11/04 4:20 AM, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Doret, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: >> Dear James, >> >> You are absolutely right about not helping others until I have > liberated >> myself as long as you are talking about personally teaching > others. I do not >> teach. > > No, I actually wasn't talking about teaching, I was talking about > spending too much time for the benefit of others at the sake of your > own benefit. I am having some computer problems and I am writing > this away from my printed suttas, but I will relate one story that > is found in a sutta. After the Buddha had announced that he was > going to pass away into Parinibbana in three months time, his Sangha > of monks were very upset. They stayed by his side almost > continually, looked after his needs, and gave him offerings of > flowers and the such. However, there was one monk who didn't stay > by the Buddha's side at all; he stayed by himself, meditating very > earnestly, because he wanted to reach Nibbana before the Buddha > passed away. The other monks brought this monk before the Buddha > (sorry, I can't remember names ;-) and told the Buddha that this > monk was being selfish and didn't care about the Buddha because he > didn't stay with the Buddha during his final days. This monk > explained his reason and the Buddha declared that the monk who was > working earnestly toward his Enlightenment was actually honoring him > more than all of the other monks who were hanging around him > continually and meeting his personal needs. Upon hearing this, > the 'selfish' monk became Enlightened. > > I think the point of this story as it relates to you is apparent. I > was not speaking to your level or skill as a Buddhist, I was > speaking to what is important to do and what is not. > > Metta, James > > > > 31201 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group Hi, LaVerne - In a message dated 3/10/04 4:56:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, lavernelenhart2002@y... writes: > Hi. I am new to your group and I am very interested in getting started. > Is there a particular spot for a beginner?? I have studied Metaphysics for > many years. Are there any particular websites to begin???? Thanks so much, > > Namaste, > > LaVerne > ============================== Welcome! I think the following sites are indispensable: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebidx.htm There are hundreds of other wonderful sites. Another site I would recommend is the following: http://www.beyondthenet.net/ As far as internet sites are concerned, I would recommend beginning with the very first site listed, Access to Insight. There are riches there you could spend years on! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31202 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group In a message dated 3/11/04 9:15:55 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Welcome! I think the following sites are indispensable: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebidx.htm There are hundreds of other wonderful sites. Another site I would recommend is the following: http://www.beyondthenet.net/ As far as internet sites are concerned, I would recommend beginning with the very first site listed, Access to Insight. There are riches there you could spend years on! And I would add http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/ jack 31203 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence On 3/11/04 5:27 AM, "Ken O" wrote: Dear Ken O, > k: I always > advocate taking of one needs first, for example, if I need to take > care of someone that is sick, then I need to ensure myself healthy, > full of zeal or not if I fall sick, it make matter worse. Yes, balance is crucial. Without sufficient formal practice, spiritual vigor thins to a trickle, leaks out, dries up. > > K: Doret, actually you are doing contemplative life just that you do > not realise it. When one do things for the sake of others, that is > metta, or we called it another way sublime abiding here and now ;-). > Practising dhamma is every moment and not trying to be > holy. Listening to a phone, talking to your subscribers can be act > of practising of dhamma. Dont need to find it elsewhere, it is right > inside you, in front of your door step ;-). Providing balance is there, this IS the spiritual life, isn't it? -- being present in one's work, sitting at the computer, making the bed and washing the dishes, interacting with others. Balance is the key . . . . so easy to say, so difficult (for me) to maintain in the right proportion. > p.s. There is no need to justify to others we are socially engaged > bc that is conceit. Before coming to this list, I had been convinced that Theravadin was opposed to socially engaged Buddhism, that it was a Mayahana invention. It seems I was misadvised. Thank you for that. With metta, Doret 31204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence, 1. Hi Howard, I find it worth while to consider more the points you bring up here. A reminder not to be parrot-like when I state something. That is why I would like to add a few thoughts. op 09-03-2004 14:51 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > Certainly "things" like impermanence, production, and decay are > pa~n~natti! They are conceptually imputed on sequences of directly apprehended > phenomena, and some, like decay, require identification of distinct phenomena > over time. N: It is true, so long as we merely think of impermanence or even the three characteristics, they are objects which are concepts. It is different when there is the direct realization of nama and rupa through insight. H: To be impermanent, for example, is merely to not remain. A phenomenon > appears, and later that phenomenon is not present - and we *say* that the > phenomenon had the feature of impermanence. But the actuality is merely that > it was, > but currently it is not. N: Merely not to remain: I would say: there is more to it. Past works on the present and when we understand better what conditions are the meaning of past or gone will be clearer. The fact that a dhamma has fallen away means that it is past. But what is past was present before, it arose because of different conditions. When those conditions fell away also the conditioned dhamma had to go. I went to Ven. Nyanaponika's Abh studies, which you also like. He (in Ch III) analyses very well the first type of wholesome consciousness in the Dhammasangani. It is amazing how many cetasikas have to come together for that one moment of citta. And then they all fall away together. But we do not realize this, we believe that they stay for a moment, that we have time to manipulate them!. In the Ch about the present, Ven. N. analyses: having been, and points out that the term uppanna (having arisen) I could add: a moment of dosa passes, but it is accumulated and added on to the latent tendency of aversion. This can condition new dosa at any time, and thus more dosa is evermore accumulated. Only lokuttara citta can eradicate latent tendencies. Also kusala is accumulated and conditions more kusala. How could we otherwise develop it? Also the experiences of sense objects that are marked by sa~n~naa, remembrance or perception, are accumulated so that there can be definitions of the meaning of such objects later on. Seeing more the intricacy of conditions helps us o understand the meaning of impermanence. Now impermanence is difficult to realize, it seems a concept. But there is a way to realize directly its meaning: the development of insight. First the difference between nama and rupa has to be realized, and then: their conditioned nature. This is very important. In the suttas we read time and again that there are three general characteristics that can be realized at the moment of enlightenment. These are not concepts. At the moment of enlightenment one is past that stage. We read in the first sutta op the K.S. IV: All three characteristics are often taken together. The development of insight in stages leads to their direct realization. We need not fall over the term characteristics, because when nama and rupa are directly experienced we do not need such words. Then we shall understand what a characteristic is. Now we just repeat the word. When reflecting I came across some helpful posts of Jon I quote now: Jon: end quote. (Next time more about conditions, I will be busy.) Nina. 31205 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Venerable Bhante, I want to express my sympathy to you in this difficult time, also on behalf of my husband. I am very glad you have so much support from the Sangha and friends. I reflect now on life that is only in one moment, one moment of experiencing one object at a time. We often spoke here about the text: I tend to forget, but it is a great consolation in times of trouble. I sincerely hope that you will have many more moments of good health in this life. Human life is so precious, since we have to opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding. May you have a speedy recovery, Nina. op 10-03-2004 23:22 schreef Ajahn Jose op ajahnjose@y...: > My Dear Friends,I would like to thank everybody for the wonderfull support and > best wishes. 31206 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Dear Philip, I just heard on tape (I made) that the four brahmaviharas are supporting condiitons for the perfections and I thought of you. op 10-03-2004 10:49 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > This afternoon, looking through the Usfeul Posts, I came across > this from Jon. (msg #2088) > < Jon: Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form of > akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it > is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting > this as a form of 'practice'. (snip) > As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously > unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing. Much > more useful than supressing those moments of akusala!> Ph: So just like that, I was able to see through the shortcomings of my > approach..... > > I'll just add that another benefit of the practice I described > above that it helps the other person. .... I expect I'll be continuing on > this double track for awhile. N: There needn't be any dilemma here or a double track. It depends on the moment whatever you do, but it is helpful to see it as conditioned dhammas. One moment you succeed with metta, that is conditioned, not you, and at another moment you fail, that is conditioned, not you. There is no need to plan anything. The Buddha said: develop kusala, avoid akusala, and these words can be the condition to develop more kusala. He also said, purify the mind: develop understanding of dhammas. If we develop the brahmaviharas with right understanding as far as we are able to the kusala is purer. It is good to learn that there is always an underlaying idea of my akusala or my kusala. Hard to detect! That is why it is beneficial to develop understanding of whatever dhamma appears. When panna grows it can detect all such moments. Nina. Nina. 31207 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Vis. Tiika on space. Vis. Tiika on space. Tiika: Ruupaani paricchindati, saya.m vaa tehi paricchijjati, It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them, ruupaana.m vaa paricchedamatta.m ruupaparicchedo, or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that is delimitation, ta.m lakkha.na.m etissaati ruupaparicchedalakkha.naa. that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter. Aya.m hi aakaasadhaatu ta.m ta.m ruupakalaapa.m paricchindantii viya hoti. This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the groups of material phenomena. Tenaaha ³ruupapariyantappakaasanarasaa²ti. Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter². Atthato pana yasmaa ruupaana.m paricchedamatta.m hutvaa gayhati, tasmaa vutta.m ³ruupamariyaadapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti. With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the confines of matter. Yasmi.m kalaape bhuutaana.m paricchedo, teheva asamphu.t.thabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa. In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its manifestation is the state of being untouched by these. Vijjamaanepi hi kalaapantarabhuutaana.m kalaapantarabhuutehi samphu.t.thabhaave ta.mta.mbhuutavivittataa ruupapariyanto aakaasoti yesa.m so paricchedo, tehi so asamphu.t.thova. If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also untouched. A~n~nathaa paricchinnataa na siyaa tesa.m bhuutaana.m byaapibhaavaapattito. Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there would be pervasion among them. Abyaapitaa hi asamphu.t.thataa. The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched. Tenaaha bhagavaa ³asamphu.t.tha.m catuuhi mahaabhuutehii²ti (dha. sa. 637, Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.² Ka.n.nacchiddamukhavivaraadivasena ca chiddavivarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa vaa. And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures. Yesa.m ruupaana.m paricchedo, tattheva tesa.m paricchedabhaavena labbhatiiti vutta.m ³paricchinnaruupapada.t.thaanaa²ti. Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.² ³Yaaya paricchinnesuu²ti-aadinaa aakaasadhaatuyaa ta.mta.mkalaapaana.m kalaapantarehi asa"nkarakaara.nata.m dasseti. With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²)he taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of the groups that they are not blended with each other. English: It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them, or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that is delimitation, that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter. This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the groups of material phenomena. Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter². With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the confines of matter. In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its manifestation is the state of being untouched by these. If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also untouched. Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there would be pervasion among them. The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched. Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.² And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures. Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.² With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²), he taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of the groups that they are not blended with each other. ****** Nina. 31208 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:32am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 10 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as eyes are opened, there sees the floor. The floor is sight. It is visual object. It is sight-sense-base. This means that the sight is the base for arising of seeing-consciousness. The sight is colour. The sight is vanna. It is rupa. It is called rupa arammana or visual object. As it is a base for seeing-consciousness it is called rupa-ayatana. The floor is seen because there is eye. The eye is sense receiver. It is eye-sense-base. This means that the eye is the base for arising of seeing-consciousness. The eye is cakkhu. It is called cakkhu vatthu. It is called cakkhu pasada. As it is a base for seeing-consciousness it is called cakkhayatana. There are rupayatana ( the floor ) and cakkhayatana ( the eye ). The light supports. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise seeing-consciousness or cakkhuvinnana citta. There is the floor. There is rupayatana or sight-sense-base. There is the eye. There is cakkhayatana or eye-sense-base. There arises cakkhuvinnana citta or seeing-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31209 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: Computer Problems--Again! ;-)) Dear James: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Well, it seems I have some bad computer kamma! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't fret, pal... it's only bad luck!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31210 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Ken H > > Definitely I will not reinvent the wheel. This three short words is > the "not me, I or myself" is the most powerful psychological tools > that I have know of. It cures all mental pain ;-). I have use it > many time and it cures all the grief successfully and I am deeply > grateful that Buddha taught it. > > Your goodwill method is described as the sublime abiding here and > now. There are many benefits with it. Keep it up. Hi Ken O, Remember, what we are talking about here is something rather petty and unworthy. We are discussing how to survive a difficult situation (like surgery) with attachment and conceit (lobha and mana) rather than with fear and loathing (dosa and ditthi?). In my case, I was fortunate enough to have experienced a kusala moment (or what I thought was a kusala moment) as I walked the final steps to the dentist's rooms. It was quite spontaneous and unplanned – conditioned by accumulated understanding. I was then able to dwell on that pleasant moment – "what a kind and considerate person I am" - - throughout the ordeal. So we are talking, at best, about the lesser of two evils. In your case, you dwelt on some prior realisation of anicca and anatta. Either way, it is nothing to be particularly proud of -- if we wanted to be really serious, it might even be called a misuse of the Buddha's teaching. But we shouldn't be harsh on ourselves; we had good reason to be employing petty techniques of self-deception. A downside of this ability is that we are just as capable of `dwelling on and on' (as Nina calls it) on unpleasant objects as we are on pleasant. So, when I make a silly mistake –when I say something hurtful or pompous for example – I can't get it out of my mind. Such is the fate of the uninstructed worldling :-) Kind regards, Ken H 31211 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Hi Dharmajim, welcome to this list. Some terms translated in the Dhammasangani are obscure. If you have any trouble do ask. The Expositor,the commentary to the Dhsg, is helpful as Sarah said. Here those terms are explained in a way that is more understandable. In the footnotes to the Dhsg there is reference to this Co all the time. Success with your study, Nina. op 11-03-2004 09:27 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Hi Dharmajim, > > Let me join Azita in welcoming you too and saying your intro here was most > inspiring. 31212 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:37am Subject: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta pitaka) to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are commonly understood as the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as distinct practice paths. They are simply the attainments that one arrives at through the single practice regimen of right mindfulness (sama-sati), which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), which are the 7th and 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin. One who has absorption has insight, one who has insight has absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is simply the other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are simply different aspects of the same thing. There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, it is the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce heat, and the other is to produce light. The same is true of absorption (samadhi), It produces both ecstasy (jhana), and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the other. This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice regimen, however there is no clear evidence to support this belief in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of four distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products or fruits of the path. However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are four "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the Buddha that clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The name of the Sutta is the Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." Therefore I believe it is reasonable to say this sutta is simply speaking of the four fruits that are a product of the single practice of mindfulness (sati). I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or fruits, or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). And, I believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions must be the four results of the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path, which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness (sama-sati) is absorption (sama-samadhi). Absorption simply has four characteristics: mindfulness (sati); ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha), or what the Buddha called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana);" insight into seeing things as they are (vipassana); and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, or psychic abilities (lokuttara balani). How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice regimen of Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). It is through attainment that we can find out for certain if there are four fruits or four paths. All one need do is practice Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), and one will find out whether there are four fruits to the practice or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these separate fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a consequence of the dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of concentration (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), which leads to absorption (samadhi) which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, mindfulness (sati), ecstasy (jhana), insight (vipassana), and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane abilities (lokuttara balani). Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 Thanissaro Bhikkhu's version is at this URL: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration (samadhi). Which four? There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana)? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana): ecstasy & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}. With the stilling of applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}, he enters & remains in the second absorption (jhana): ecstasy & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)} -- internal assurance. With the fading of ecstasy he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to bliss (piiti). He enters & remains in the third absorption (jhana), of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & anxiety -- he enters & remains in the fourth absorption (jhana): purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani)? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati)? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati). "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates (cognition): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/files/ Best regards, Jeff Brooks 31213 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:33pm Subject: Message from Andrew Dear Sarah and Nina, I passed on your messages to Andrew and he told me to thank you for thinking of him; he will be back sooner or later. Sad news, however, about Sandra's father. He died this morning – quite a lot sooner than they were expecting. He had gone to hospital for some tests but had a fall while he was there and broke his hip. He had an operation and seemed to recover for a few hours but it was too much for his frail state of health. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew, (Nina & Ken H), > > I'm sure it's a busy and demanding time with your father-in-law and he's > very blessed to have you and Sandra care for him at this time. > > Like Nina, I'd really like to encourage you to skip mails of no interest > and keep up your occasional fine questions and witty challenging of Ken H > 31214 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Message from Andrew Dear Andrew (& Ken H), --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina, > > I passed on your messages to Andrew and he told me to thank you for > thinking of him; he will be back sooner or later. Sad news, > however, about Sandra's father. He died this morning – quite a lot > sooner than they were expecting. .... Please pass on our condolences. He was indeed fortunate to have such good loving care in his final years and I hope these acts of kindness will be some consolation to Sandra & Andrew. My Chinese friends refer to the funeral of someone who lives to such a great age as being a 'happy funeral'. For others, so many wonderful posts on 'Death' have been written here on DSG. A very small selection (by the mods) can be found at these links (nos of posts in the archives): Death 381, 669 1903, 2235, 3921, 3930, 3990, 6819, 7986, 10575, 11456, 11462, 11513, 11587, 11612, 11628, 12530, 12993, 13743, 13767, 14253, 14642, 15787, 15942, 19875, 22630, 26550, 27216, 27236, 27267, 29153 May we all be inspired by Andrew and Sandra to take good care of our loved ones while we have the opportunity. Metta, Sarah ===== 31215 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Connie, I meant to add another word or two.. --- connie wrote: > Thanks, Sarah. I had a great day following UP on your suggestions and > eventually found myself being reminded in Nina's Dhamma Issues that not > only the arahats, but aslo the sotapanna's behaviour is beyond my > measure. .... S: Yes and I'd go much further and say that what hasn't been understood can't really be fully appreciated in another at all. This applies not only to stages of insight but also to basic satipatthana or even to the value of sila or dana for example. Lots of examples we could give. ..... The example from ch 8: > > It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not engage in slandering > which can divide others, because he has eradicated all akusala kamma > that can cause rebirth in an unhappy plane. He has also eradicated > jealousy and stinginess. > However, sometimes the sotåpanna should say what is true for the benefit > of others without there being the unwholesome intention of using speech > which could cause division among others. However, others could > mistakenly take this for speech that causes division because it may seem > to be slandering. Moreover, the sotåpanna can still speak with aversion, > dosa, since he has not eradicated aversion. > ..... S: Good example. .... > More to the point in my daily life, I can't know anyone else's citta and > am easily fooled into taking 'my' akusala for kusala. .... S: ;-) .... > I really like this one, too: > > 2. The "Dispeller of Delusion", Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, > Decads, 2162, explains about the remaining rebirths of each class of > sotåpannas, <...> ***In the seventh existence, > even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to > ripen.*** Feeling revulsion for even the smallest object, he arrives at > peace." > .... S: Again, impossible to 'measure' from the actions in that lifetime. (Ken O, note: this doesn't mean we are encouraged to live in negligence or that it doesn't matter because sati will arise. Ai-ahhhh ;-)) .... > I think the sotapanna would know they had entered the stream during the > remainer of the lifetime it happened in, but do they carry that > certainty with them into their next lives? .... S: No doubt. Rebirth is usually in a higher realm. .... > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm > Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: > > 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the > wish > ***** > > Curious. I'd think if the conditions were there, enlightenment would > just happen. So what condition(s) does he 'control' or 'withold'? .... S: These are just conventional terms. The wish and supporting conditions at the time are the decisive conditions for enlightenment not to occur in that lifetime or until the paramis have been perfected. Back to the intricacies of these extremely complex conditions as I see it. Any more helpful quotes? Metta, Sarah ===== 31216 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: >The central point is that the notions of subject > and > objects-of-subjective-knowing only apply to the erroneous experiencing > of us > benighted folks. I believe they are deceptive notions, and that > experience as it > actually is, is free of this duality. .... S: Got it! .... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that translating 'vi~n~nana' as "consciousness" is > inadequate. > I think it is better translated as "subjectivity" in the sense of > experience > polarized towards a seeming knowing subject. > ---------------------------------------------------- .... S: You've explained above that 'subjective knowing' is erroneous so it doesn't make sense to use it. We need to be discussing what is not erroneous. We could refer to certain kinds of vinnana or citta as being accompanied by erroneous view, but this wouldn't apply to vipaka cittas such as seeing, hearing and so on under the vinnana umbrella. If you don't like consciousness, the common translation, let'd just use vinnana or citta. .... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly the middle way. But we may not see what that is in > exactly > the same fashion. > ------------------------------------------------------ .... S: Agreed. That's why we're hear to discuss further:-) .... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I disagree. Not unsatisfactory because impermanent, but > unsatisfactory > because impermanent AND clung to. The cause of dukkha is given in the > 2nd > noble truth, and that cause is tanha. When we crave that things remain > or we > crave that they change to be just as we wish, we suffer. > ------------------------------------------------------ .... S: Even if there is no craving at this moment, the conditioned dhammas are still dukkha. This remains true even for an arahant. No more craving -> no new kamma -> no rebirth. .... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. The Buddha attained full cessation under the bodhi tree. (But > > recall what I mean by vi~n~nana, namarupa, phassa, etc) > ------------------------------------------------- .... S: Final cessation, parinibbana at the end of his life. Perhaps you're referring to nirodha samapatti (dwelling in cessation) or experience of nirodha (nibbana)as experience of full cessation. Still vinnana, however. We may be misunderstanding each other here. .... > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I sure do! (And perhaps it would be best for us to just enjoy > this > commonality of understanding and not push the rest too far. ;-) > --------------------------------------------------------- ... S: That was agreement on subjective knowing being an illusion or mirage. Agreement's always nice, but I'd say let's keep other channels open;-) .... > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, there was visual and mental experience, completely > undeluded, > entirely free of the sense of knowing/controlling subject, and entirely > free of > sense of known/controlled objects. > ------------------------------------------------------- .... S:Even for a sotapanna, free of all wrong views inc self-view. However, I don't understand the objects part. Arammana-paccaya (object condition). No experiencing or vinnana without arammana. Of course we both agree that there are no 'controlled objects' - glad you're coming round here, Howard;-);-) .... S:> >dod- * dense or doctrinaire > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. I'm just not being clear. Definitely not clear. > ======================== .... S: This one was very clear (or maybe I wasn't such a dod, LOL). Metta and apologies for always being so slow. Sarah ====== 31217 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo, I have no problem with anything you wrote in this post (and you know how picky I am;-). You gave many helpful elaborations. Thank you. I'll have to get back on our other thread and other posts later. Out of time now. .... --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Vitakka is not concentration. > Vicara is not concentration. > Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. > Samma Samadhi is not right absorption. > Jhana is not a dirty word. > And many things still left to say > > May all beings have right view or Samma Ditthi and see Dhamma as they > really are. .... In appreciation, Metta, Sarah ===== 31218 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > > Sukin: But zeal towards what? You are saying zeal to disengage from > > certain activities. I don't know what particular Suttas you are > > referring to, but my guess is that the zeal is toward the Dhamma > > itself. What aspect of it and on what level, study, consideration > > or application depends on conditions, no? > > k: there is no level or whatever study, zeal is just a cetasikas > that propel one to study the dhamma. Nothing insidious except though > zeal can be akusala also. S: I wasn't talking about the characteristic of zeal itself, but its object. Depending on other conditions, one of which is the level of panna, zeal can condition any kind of kusala. And of course, with akusala roots, akusala. > > > > Sukin: But you were talking about `belonging to the third kind of > > undertaking'? This is different, no? Recently there was a > > discussion about the Buddha as being the only person able to > `measure' people, I think it applies to each person measuring himself > too, wouldn't you think so? Especially, knowing that we are > puthujanas? And if you are comparing the first type of individual > with what I am professing, then you are wrong. I do not > > say "go and enjoy yourself". > > k: Ai yah Sukin, it is how I characterize myself, I am not > characterizing anyone (what for anyway, I dont own their cittas). It > is how I reflect on myself that I have lots of fault/blemishes and > what I understake will be painful most of the time due to my weak > panna - dont get excited ;-). S: I'm as excited as I was, because it wasn't about `me' or `you', but about `view'. Even though after reading the Sutta you referred to, I came to an understanding that you did not really `identify' with a particular character, but was rather pointing to a particular mode of behavior you chose to adopt, I still think that one should be careful. Remember, Christine just posted a Sutta about the origination of Views. It all starts with self-view. And it is these views which produce the idea of `things to do'. It is good to reflect on one's faults, but this should be with kusala citta. And kusala is with hiri and ottappa, but does this condition `doing something'? Are you going to pick up a dhamma book, to cleanse you soul? ;-) Just kidding, I know this is not what you are saying. > > insight can occur!! So in fact breaking the precept was decisive > > support condition for that deep insight!! What if he had been > > overly concerned about keeping sila, would that have been the > natural decisive support condition? > > k: dont count on such things really Sukin. That is dangerous. I > never bank myself on satipatthana to arise during akusala moments, > that will be very difficult. IF you have it, that good. If not I > think is best to avoid akusala actions if we are conditioned to act. S: I think Ken, you are misunderstanding the point I am making. I am not concerned about having satipatthana at all. The point I make or Sarah makes about satipatthana being capable of arising anywhere, is not about `us', but about `right view'. Plainly put, I think it wrong view to think that some situations are more conducive for satipatthana than others. It would not be wrong view to say that `all is burning', but it would be so, if we say that at the pub it burns more than at the temple. The problem is that we don't have satipatthana and instead get drawn in by the signs and details which condition the three unwholesome roots. There is no less chance of being caught in the signs and details of the temple environment than there is in the department store. There is no less possibility of being caught in the sound of monks chanting than of Deep Purple (whose music I had in the background when I wrote my post yesterday ;-)). Ken, there is no, temple, pub, monks or Rock music to start with. There is only vipaka and our kusala and akusala moments. Anytime, anyplace, there is only nama and rupa. No stories. But we always forget this. ;-) I don't deny that for each of us, there will be favourite spots, where sati and wise reflection may arise more often than others. For me, it is in my car when driving. But do I make it into my `meditation room'? > > Sukin: NO, Ken. A person who understands dhamma enough may indulge > > in sense pleasures from time to time, but it is very unlikely > > that `hell can break lose'. > > K: NO Sukin, that is not what Buddha preach. All is burning - > remember that. If one think one can indugle in sensual pleasure > because one understand dhamma - that is full of conceit ;-). S: Like I said above, what is burning is not out there, but in here. And surely no one is ever taking knowledge of dhamma as excuse for sensual indulgence? Or saying that because of it, one is `well protected'? No, we are very fragile and vulnerable, but what we need to identify is the real enemy, and this we cannot find in the stories themselves, but in the `story writer'. And we should not have a story about the writer either. ;-) > S: And even if it did, it would have been against his better > judgement, and his accumulated panna does not decrease. So anytime > following this, there can be kusala reflectio> and satipatthana. No > problem at all. > > K: You forget the other equation, tendecies also accumulated. And > that is problem. S: It may or may not be. But you are suggesting wearing protective shield because of an idea. In the same way, the precepts are just "ideas", whereas sila is a "reality" when the condition arises. > > Sukin: Seeing the value of precept would be an instance of panna of > > > a certain level, saying,"Who cares about such precepts" is > > foolishness. Did I say otherwise? > > K: So what is the stand, do you think precepts important or not > important. Is it a limit or not a limit. S: The five precepts are perfect guides. It reflects Buddha's great wisdom; he knew what exactly is proper for the layperson. But remember, they are training rules, which means that our attitude towards them must be with wisdom. The Buddha knew that we all have lots of kilesas, so I don't think he expected that any of us would be able to follow it perfectly. Wisdom requires that we must have a very flexible attitude toward these precepts. There is no doubt that akusala kamma will condition akusala vipaka, so we must accept it when we do wrong. However, knowing for example that remorse, restlessness and doubt can arise at anytime because of weak wisdom, we must know when to move on. I force this one to be shorter! :-) Metta, Sukin. 31219 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin > S: I'm as excited as I was, because it wasn't about `me' or `you', > but about `view'. Even though after reading the Sutta you referred > to, I came to an understanding that you did not really `identify' > with a particular character, but was rather pointing to a > particular mode of behavior you chose to adopt, I still think that one should be careful. Remember, Christine just posted a Sutta about the origination of Views. It all starts with self-view. And it is these> views which produce the idea of `things to do'. It is good to > reflect on one's faults, but this should be with kusala citta. And > kusala is with hiri and ottappa, but does this condition `doing > something'? Are you going to pick up a dhamma book, to cleanse you > soul? ;-) Just kidding, I know this is not what you are saying. k: This remind a story quite a few years there was this craze about crystal, certain crystal can induce luck, happines etc. So I asked my friend so the people who retail those crystal must be very rich and happy ;-). Anyway I am not characterizing myself in such a view (for what anyway), I was saying some of the understakings that I have experience can be the 3rd kind (in fact come think about it can be the any kind ;-)). > S: I think Ken, you are misunderstanding the point I am making. I > am not concerned about having satipatthana at all. The point I make or Sarah makes about satipatthana being capable of arising anywhere, > is not about `us', but about `right view'. Plainly put, I think it > wrong view to think that some situations are more conducive for > satipatthana than others. It would not be wrong view to say > that `all is burning', but it would be so, if we say that at the > pub it burns more than at the temple. The problem is that we don't have satipatthana and instead get drawn in by the signs and details > which condition the three unwholesome roots. There is no less chance of being caught in the signs and details of the temple environment than there is in the department store. There is no less possibility of being caught in the sound of monks chanting than of Deep Purple (whose music I had in the background when I wrote my post > yesterday ;-)). k: Yah sure, as I said good luck. Dont bank on doing akusala actions and then satipatthana will *pooh* arise because we know there are anatta. Remember it is always a cycle, akusala condition akusala vice versa. So I say dont just think it is all beyond control and we can do what we think we like. That is an errorenous view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn109.html <> > S: Like I said above, what is burning is not out there, but in > here. And surely no one is ever taking knowledge of dhamma as excuse for sensual indulgence? Or saying that because of it, one is `well protected'? No, we are very fragile and vulnerable, but what we > need to identify is the real enemy, and this we cannot find in the > stories themselves, but in the `story writer'. And we should not > have a story about the writer either. ;-) k: As I said above - good luck > S: It may or may not be. But you are suggesting wearing protective > shield because of an idea. In the same way, the precepts are > just "ideas", whereas sila is a "reality" when the condition > arises. k: Excuses again waiting for conditions and then say hey it is because of conditions, that is why I acted this way. Dont count on it. Because cetana will have acumulated. Ken O 31220 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret You have to excuse me if I am very blunt and to the point. What is formal practise? I dont think you need to go to do something to experience the six senses to practise satipatthana. Except when you are sleeping, there is no escape from the six senses. So is practise is about understanding the nature the six senses as "not me, not I or not myself" or you have to wait a moment to think a about it in a certain time or place Vigor or I prefer zeal is something that is conditioned by right understanding. In other words, the more you consider dhammas (be it reading or listen the dhamma or reflecting while driving), the more zeal will arouse because one have the right undersanding of the nature of unwholesomeness. Another point is that people always thought there should be a formal practise, because only these special time, they consider dhamma deeply - I always wonder if they consider dhamma while they are eating ;-). Dhamma practise is not about later, is always now. I have to admit it can be difficult. But I think the right understanding on what constitute practise and how to consider dhamma will have make this journey easier. The trick about dhamma is the more your consider with the correct starting ground , the easier it gets. Isn't it amazing that even by simply thinking "this not mine, not I, not myself" is already the start of practise. Dhamma practise make life easier and not the other way round. If it is the other way round, then you have to ponder deeply what is really dhamma. In the meantime, you are in safe hands (though not everyone here agreed with me ;-)). Ken O 31221 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - Just a couple additional comments, Sarah. In a message dated 3/12/04 3:02:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >The central point is that the notions of subject > >and > >objects-of-subjective-knowing only apply to the erroneous experiencing > >of us > >benighted folks. I believe they are deceptive notions, and that > >experience as it > >actually is, is free of this duality. > .... > S: Got it! > .... > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I think that translating 'vi~n~nana' as "consciousness" is > >inadequate. > >I think it is better translated as "subjectivity" in the sense of > >experience > >polarized towards a seeming knowing subject. > >---------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: You've explained above that 'subjective knowing' is erroneous so it > doesn't make sense to use it. We need to be discussing what is not > erroneous. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree, Sarah. Avijja is erroneous, but it needs to be seen for what it is, discussed, and studied, because we are immersed in it. The sense of "I" and the sense of "mine" are erroneous but need to be discussed. The propensity to I-making leads to the vi~n~nana-namarupa vortex that lies at the core of the dependent origination of dukkha in the non-arahant, and the unraveling of which leads to liberation. Because of ignorance and ignorance-corrupted fabricating activities, experience (citta) is defiled and seemingly split at every moment into a knowing subject facing its opposite number, the object of that (nonexistent) knowing subject. There is no subject without object, and no object without subject. This is the usual mode of experience even of non-arahant ariyans. Without seeing the nature of our deluded state, we are like prisoners who think our prison is a luxury resort. Without the delusive subject-object split, there is just experiential content of sights, sounds, tastes, odors, body sensings, and mental experiences - no subject facing these, and these not things facing a knowing subject. The subject versus object split is what seems to be reality to non-arahants. It constitutes our cell door, and it is important for us to carefully examine this door to see what it is made of, to see how solid or flimsy it is, and to see whether it is really locked. ---------------------------------------------------------- We could refer to certain kinds of vinnana or citta as being> > accompanied by erroneous view, but this wouldn't apply to vipaka cittas > such as seeing, hearing and so on under the vinnana umbrella. If you don't > like consciousness, the common translation, let'd just use vinnana or > citta. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I maintain that the vi~n~nana of paticcasamupada is not just citta. [I am using 'citta' here as meaning "experience" or "experiential state" - the presence of experiential content. And, speaking neutrally, arammana is not an object of knowing in the sense of something separate from and apprehended by a knowing subject, but is merely the current content of experience.] I see vi~n~nana as experience infected by subjectivity. Likewise for namarupa. In many places, namarupa means "individuality", in some places it refers to the conventional person (the sentient body), most neutrally it means mentality-materiality experiential content; but in paticcasamupada it refers to the objectivity counterpart to the vi~n~nana subjectivity. In viewing it this way, the dependent origination scheme, both in the dukkha-creation direction, and in the dukkha- cessation direction, makes clearer sense to me. I find this way of understanding the dependent origination/cessation aspect of the Dhamma enormously useful to me. It enables me to understand what is otherwise not only complex and profound, but extremely hard to make sense of. This perspective may well not ring true for you. That's fine. Whatever helps, helps - for each of us. -------------------------------------------------------- > .... > >----------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Certainly the middle way. But we may not see what that is in > >exactly > >the same fashion. > >------------------------------------------------------ > .... > S: Agreed. That's why we're hear to discuss further:-) > .... > >------------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > I disagree. Not unsatisfactory because impermanent, but > >unsatisfactory > >because impermanent AND clung to. The cause of dukkha is given in the > >2nd > >noble truth, and that cause is tanha. When we crave that things remain > >or we > >crave that they change to be just as we wish, we suffer. > >------------------------------------------------------ > .... > S: Even if there is no craving at this moment, the conditioned dhammas are > still dukkha. This remains true even for an arahant. No more craving -> no > new kamma -> no rebirth. > .... > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. The Buddha attained full cessation under the bodhi tree. (But > > > >recall what I mean by vi~n~nana, namarupa, phassa, etc) > >------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: Final cessation, parinibbana at the end of his life. Perhaps you're > referring to nirodha samapatti (dwelling in cessation) or experience of > nirodha (nibbana)as experience of full cessation. Still vinnana, however. > We may be misunderstanding each other here. > .... > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I sure do! (And perhaps it would be best for us to just enjoy > >this > >commonality of understanding and not push the rest too far. ;-) > >--------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S: That was agreement on subjective knowing being an illusion or mirage. > Agreement's always nice, but I'd say let's keep other channels open;-) > .... > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, there was visual and mental experience, completely > >undeluded, > >entirely free of the sense of knowing/controlling subject, and entirely > >free of > >sense of known/controlled objects. > >------------------------------------------------------- > .... > S:Even for a sotapanna, free of all wrong views inc self-view. > However, I don't understand the objects part. Arammana-paccaya (object > condition). No experiencing or vinnana without arammana. Of course we both > agree that there are no 'controlled objects' - glad you're coming round > here, Howard;-);-) > .... > S:> >dod- * dense or doctrinaire > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. I'm just not being clear. Definitely not clear. > >======================== > .... > S: This one was very clear (or maybe I wasn't such a dod, LOL). > > Metta and apologies for always being so slow. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You're anything but slow, Sarah! There were just two things going on: 1) I wasn't being sufficiently clear, and 2) You weren't getting me, because our perspectives are rather different (or, more bluntly, because we have some fundamental disagreements). =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31222 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello Ken O, and all. Ken O wrote: > Vigor or I prefer zeal is something that is conditioned by right > understanding. In other words, the more you consider dhammas (be it > reading or listen the dhamma or reflecting while driving), the more > zeal will arouse because one have the right undersanding of the > nature of unwholesomeness. Another point is that people always > thought there should be a formal practise, because only these special > time, they consider dhamma deeply - I always wonder if they consider > dhamma while they are eating ;-). Dhamma practise is not about > later, is always now. > Ken, I just want to say how much I've enjoyed reading your posts on understanding realities and the Abhidhamma. (Many of these in the Useful Posts) Your zeal is contagious. I feel very fortunate to be able to practice under your influence. :) Metta, Phil 31223 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:22am Subject: Spinning out Pannati Hello all I went for my usual walk in the park this morning. I'm in the process of writing some essays about what goes on in this park, so it is very hard not to get lost in conceptual thought as I walk. But walking is not the time for writing. Walking is the time for mindfulness. Anyways, I've been struggling - in an enjoyable way- with getting lost in pannati more than ever recently, or perhaps thanks to this group am just becoming more aware of the difference between concepts and realities. This evening, came across this post (#2906) that encouraged me: "But more importantly, as far as the development of satipatthana goes, need we be concerned about this difference anyway? Even at the moments we are spinning out?Ea lot of pannati there are still realities appearing that can be the object of satipatthana. There is, for example, the actual thinking (that has as its object the pannati), as well as the seeing and other sense-door experiences occurring at (more or less) the same time. Perhaps we are not as clear about this as we should be. That is why it is useful to learn more about the theory of satipatthana and to consider how the theoretical understanding can be applied to the present moment. Whether we have a sitting practice or not, we will to continue to spin out lots of pannati. If we think of the pannati as an obstacle to progress, we are going to find the development of awareness very difficult indeed." (Jon) I will surely continue to spin out pannati, but will now be able to see where it can play a role in my beginner's satipatthana practice. Thank you, as always, Venerable Useful Posts. Metta, Phil 31224 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Greetings, Ken O, I speak only from personal experience. If I don't get my daily injection of quiet meditation time, either walking or sitting, I might not notice the first day or two but soon some vital part is missing. I get disconnected. I still feel that my body is just a robot as I go about my work, but inner peace and tranquility is absent. It's as though meditation time invites a Presence that stays with me the rest of the day. Without meditation time, that Presence gradually fades. I miss it. I know the difference. Doret On 3/12/04 3:39 AM, "Ken O" wrote: > Hi Doret > > You have to excuse me if I am very blunt and to the point. > > What is formal practise? I dont think you need to go to do > something to experience the six senses to practise satipatthana. > Except when you are sleeping, there is no escape from the six senses. > So is practise is about understanding the nature the six senses as > "not me, not I or not myself" or you have to wait a moment to think a > about it in a certain time or place > > Vigor or I prefer zeal is something that is conditioned by right > understanding. In other words, the more you consider dhammas (be it > reading or listen the dhamma or reflecting while driving), the more > zeal will arouse because one have the right undersanding of the > nature of unwholesomeness. Another point is that people always > thought there should be a formal practise, because only these special > time, they consider dhamma deeply - I always wonder if they consider > dhamma while they are eating ;-). Dhamma practise is not about > later, is always now. > > I have to admit it can be difficult. But I think the right > understanding on what constitute practise and how to consider dhamma > will have make this journey easier. The trick about dhamma is the > more your consider with the correct starting ground , the easier it > gets. Isn't it amazing that even by simply thinking "this not mine, > not I, not myself" is already the start of practise. Dhamma practise > make life easier and not the other way round. If it is the other way > round, then you have to ponder deeply what is really dhamma. In the > meantime, you are in safe hands (though not everyone here agreed with > me ;-)). > > > Ken O 31225 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Jeff, How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) Pansadhovaka Sutta * The Dirt-washer http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Regards, Swee Boon 31226 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi,Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/12/04 8:53:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Jeff, > > How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in > it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. > > > Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) > Pansadhovaka Sutta * > The Dirt-washer > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ========================= I'm amazed. Just because the word 'jhana' doesn't occur, you think this doesn't pertain to jhanas. It *obviously* pertains to the 4th jhana. Multiple other suttas make it crystal clear that that is what is being discussed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31227 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Howard, How do you know that it pertains to the 4th jhana, if you don't mind my stupidity? Regards, Swee Boon 31228 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:44am Subject: Re: Spinning out Pannati dear Philofillet > > I went for my usual walk in the park this morning. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Such technique of meditation were the mark of one great Philosopher: Aristotle. His school or Lycée were called "Peripathos"due the fact that his lectures and solitaire meditations were performanced at walking. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Anyways, I've been struggling - in an enjoyable way- > with getting lost in pannati more than ever recently, or perhaps > thanks to this group am just becoming more aware of the difference > between concepts and realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- That's a "must" for all Nina van Gorkon's fans!!! And it shows that theravadin Buddism has some fundamental and deep remarks on Episthemology and many of Bertrand Russel's favourite themes of discussion! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > That is > why it is useful to learn more about the theory of > satipatthana and to consider how the theoretical > understanding can be applied to the present moment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It's Easy to talk but a very hard task to put on practice such Satipatthana issues! I do prefer to consider this as a feature only well performed on by Bhikkhus themselves! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Thank you, as always, Venerable Useful Posts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel honoured!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31229 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret Sad to say that is the danger of meditation without right understanding (though as I said before, a few here disagreed with me), it can be addictive (lobha). I suggest you stop your meditation completely because you seem to be longing for a certain kind of experience (but if others tell you not to stop - it is up to you to choose). When you feel you are robot, honestly speaking that shows that dhamma is not in your living moment. When you stand up, you feel the floor is very hard, at that moment if you understand that due to body sense and tangible (earth - hardness), body consciouness arise and that experience the hardness. And if you reflect further, these moments come in a fix order without anyone (or self) directing it, it arise by conditions. And if you reflect further, you realise that why Buddha say "this is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself". All the six sense, like you are looking, hearing, smelling etc are doors to practise. If you reflect this here and now, you will have a sense of calm that even if you lose all your property right now, you will be calm. People can shout at you, cursing you with many unkind words, you still be calm. Because you know, the world is empty of a self or anything pertaining to a self. That is what I mean by calm and not otherwise. Only when you have this understanding, if you go to practise meditation, it will become beneficial, no longer a burden. Let me share with you my method for your reference I memorise certain suttas by hard and there are benefits in it. I love memorise text because they sounds like poems to me, it inspire me. Or whenever I feel that lobha or dosa is too strong and I cant focus, then this replay kicks in. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059a.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-085.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-028a.html It only take a few hours to remember them because they are repetiive, just remember the juicy part ;-). I also urge you to read Abdhidhamma text - why - because, dhamma is explain very clearly and in detail in Abdhidhamma. When one learn clearly, confidence arose. When one learn Abdhidhamma, the understand of not-self (as expounded by sutta) will be greatly enhance. I benefit immersely from Abhidhamma - nothing beats it, it make the sutta text so clear. Go to Zolag http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Abdhidhamma in Daily Life or Survey of Paramattha Dhammas as intro Cetasikas - very important because it describe the three aggreagates clearly - the feelings, perceptions and mental fabrications aggregates. Rupa - very important because it is about the material aggregates. If you do not wish to know other details just understand the four great elements and the sense rupas Third suggestion - keep reading posts from here, because they are daily reminders of dhamma. At times you get inspire. If you like joy - read Icaro posts. If you like serious no nonsense dhamma, read Nina's. If you like occassional teasers, look for Sarah. If you like people to give you a hard and blunt talk - thats me ;-). Last suggestion - there is no overnight Buddha. It is a very gradual path. My personal experience, sometimes it can be a painful or fustrating undertaking. Sometimes we fall down and lost touch, dont give up, follow it and one day you will reach there. I have never find any medicine that cure all my grief than the one Buddha teaches. Many of us here, take a while to reach there and even then we are still learning, still infants in Buddhism. Ken O 31230 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:57am Subject: Yuganaddha Sutta Hi All, I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of arahantship. (1) insight preceded by tranquility - this refers to one who had developed the mundane jhanas and used those jhanas as the basis of contemplation of insight (2) tranquility preceded by insight - this refers to one who had not developed the mundane jhanas but proceded straight into the contemplation of insight; the tranquility obtained is that of supramundane jhana. (3) tranquility in tandem with insight - this refers to one who had developed the mundane jhanas but did not use those jhanas as the basis of contemplation of insight (4) unclear Regards Swee Boon http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." 31231 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/12/04 9:28:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > How do you know that it pertains to the 4th jhana, if you don't mind > my stupidity? > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ============================ You are, obviously to me and everyone else here, the very opposite of stupid. I simply found the material in the sutta to be clearly indicative of the 4th jhana. For example, there is the following from this sutta: _____________________________ But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "And then whichever of the higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he hears -- by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human -- both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes and details. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." ------------------------------------------------------------ Now compare the foregoing with the following from the Dvedhavitakka Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 19: ___________________________________ With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled the Noble Ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the Noble Ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31232 From: sukinder Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, First of all I would like to make a correction. With reference to your previous post where you said: > K: You forget the other equation, tendecies also accumulated. And > that is problem. And I answered: S: It may or may not be. But you are suggesting wearing protective shield because of an idea. In the same way, the precepts are just "ideas", whereas sila is a "reality" when the condition arises. Sukin: I had read the above as referring to akusala as in akusala kammapattha instead of 'tendencies'. Perhaps it was because we were talking about sila and sila is about akusala kammapattha. Yes, I agree that tendencies accumulate, and it does every moment, no matter what we do, be it kusala or akusala. Even something as mild as digging one's nose, or turning one's head to enjoy a different view, accumulates. And perhaps Ken, this is what inspired you to write about this in the first place? I see it as a very powerful reminder. However, just as I was reminded about digging my nose with perhaps a glimpse of the akusala citta and I stopped doing it; it is not about a 'situation'. Even though it was still on the level of 'thinking', it wasn't about sila either. Besides, I could have continued with the digging, only this time not mindlessly, but with a clear objective, i.e. to clean my nose. ;-) But then there is no guarantee that there will be clear comprehension and that akusala will not be conditioned at any time. But I will not make a rule about 'not to dig my nose'. Same applies to watching the movies or reading the papers. I could have sati before, in the middle of or towards the end of the activity. But I will not make any rules about it! Why? Because it is encouraging of self-view. Now I remember that you were indeed initially inspired by reflection on 'inherent tendencies'. I think they are very powerful reminders. But why not leave them at that, as "reminders". Reminders are effective only when they are recalled at the appropriate moment. You could be having post-its all over your house with reminders written on them, but are they effective compared to when something is recalled with wisdom? Do you see even this as an excuse? I think I understand your objection. I recall that on a few occasions in the past, I too read similar suggestions by others almost like as if that person was justifying himself. But now I understand differently. I remember that when I first met Sarah and Jon and I made a comment about actors as being in a 'wrong' profession, suggesting that it was impossible to develop understanding while working as an actor. I remember Jon shaking his head in disagreement (we didn't discuss it). Now I understand that I was wrong to think that way. I was thinking in terms of 'people' and 'situations' and this distorts the perception. Anyone, everywhere are just namas and ruaps. If the actor has conflict, he has conflict, but this can be with understanding or not. If he is pressured to lie, drink etc., he can leave. If not, then there is no reason to, as long as he is sincere about the development of satipatthana. Sometimes there may be forgetfulness, but this could happen in any situation, so the problem is not in the job. Likewise, someone may by accumulated habit, sit in front of the TV. And if by conditions, he is reminded about 'tendencies', then he may stop. But then again maybe he is not reminded or the recall may not be with any panna associated, so he just continues. Is he making excuses, or are there simply not the right conditions for restraint? But what if he did have deep insight while indulging himself? He may not have self view all along at all. On the other hand, someone might be very strict about sila, but self-view may cause him not to have any insight. Of course insight can arise at any time, even to know wrong view. You said in this post: k: Dont bank on doing akusala actions and then satipatthana will *pooh* arise because we know there are anatta. Remember it is always a cycle, akusala condition akusala vice versa. So I say dont just think it is all beyond control and we can do what we think we like. That is an errorenous view. Sukin: The main condition for satipatthana is Right View, and Wrong View is its only hindrance. I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. Ken, we might have to agree to disagree, because I think we should give this a break at least. But I do look forward to your response and explanation. I value them. And I would rather be corrected and change my outlook, than to be wrong and think that I am right. Feeling, very drowsy, must go to sleep now. Metta, Sukin. 31233 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Howard, Thank you for your kind and gentle post. But I have a question: Have you ever considered that it might be possible to obtain the abhinnas (recollecting past lives, etc) without the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana? And that the concentration described in Pansadhovaka Sutta might not be the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana or even the 1st jhana? "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. This description doesn't fit well for someone who is striving to attain the jhanas, don't you agree? I do not think a person who has attained the jhanas would also have wiped out of existence thoughts of conceit. This is definitely a very un-jhanic passage to me. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I think the key phrase here is "concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability". Could there be another method to achieve this state besides the 4th jhana? Well, I think so. Regards, Swee Boon 31234 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Dear Sukin: > Feeling, very drowsy, must go to sleep now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ohhh!!!! So you will let go astray such great chance for an extreme practice of mindfulness!!!! O tempora! O mores! This Jambudipa is empty!!! Where could I find out a real marathonical adept of satipatthana ??? Mettaya, Ícaro 31235 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/12/04 11:33:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thank you for your kind and gentle post. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for receiving it so. :-) --------------------------------------------- > > But I have a question: Have you ever considered that it might be > possible to obtain the abhinnas (recollecting past lives, etc) without > the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that might be possible. It's just that this formulation is very close to the oft repeated stock formulation of what leads to both higher powers and liberation, and I haven't seen references elsewhere to the abhinnas being attained except from the base of the 4th jhana. But, sure, I can't conclude that to be impossible. ------------------------------------------------- > > And that the concentration described in Pansadhovaka Sutta might not > be the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana or even the 1st jhana? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I find that unlikely, but possible. -------------------------------------------------- > > "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on > heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, &mind. These the monk -- > aware &able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of > existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate > impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, &harmfulness. These he > abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of > them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, > thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be > despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. > > "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His > concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained > serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful > restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, grows unified &concentrated. His concentration is calm > &refined, has attained serenity &unity, and is no longer kept in > place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. > > > This description doesn't fit well for someone who is striving to > attain the jhanas, don't you agree? I do not think a person who has > attained the jhanas would also have wiped out of existence thoughts of > conceit. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, prior to the last two sentences, this certainly does not yet refer to the 4th jhana. But in any case, attaining jhanas alone doesn't uproot even a single defilement. While in the midst of a jhana, defilements are suppressed and inactive, but they are very much "alive" and reactivate when the jhanic state is exited. I think this sutta may describe successive degrees of suppression as one moves into higher jhanas, but I'm getting less and less certain. I must admit that you have planted a seed of doubt in me on this matter. I'm pleased that you have persisted. There *is* some oddness to this if it is to be interpreted as "jhanic". ---------------------------------------------------------- > > This is definitely a very un-jhanic passage to me. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand what you are saying. You know - perhaps this sutta is a mix of more than one original teaching; such confusing mixings do occur as the result of late codification of various teachings in many traditions. I wonder when this sutta was included in the Sutta Pitaka. --------------------------------------------------------- > > > With the abandoning of pleasure &pain -- as with the earlier > disappearance of elation &distress -- I entered &remained in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &mindfulness, neither pleasure nor > pain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, > unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, &attained > to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my > past lives. > > > I think the key phrase here is "concentrated, purified, bright, > unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, &attained > to imperturbability". > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this sort of language is missing from the original sutta being discussed. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Could there be another method to achieve this state besides the 4th > jhana? Well, I think so. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Perhaps. Perhaps the 1st jhana, perhaps only access concentration - I won't rule this out. Again, though, the higher powers and knowledges are generally associated with the 4th jhana. There is, indeed, a question here, however, and I repeat that I'm happy that you have persisted in making your point. ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31236 From: Raymond Hendrickson Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence > > > Doret Says: > > > > Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no > wiggle > > room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: > the > > magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and > selecting > > teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending > prisoners > > spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung > cancer and > > needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation > practice, > > and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE > connected > > with our own progress. > > > > With metta, > > Doret > > > > James says: > > It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to > prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I > also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison > Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really > help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am > in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the > five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no > matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and > bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my > toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help > another person in prison? > > Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara > are in any position to really help those who are still in prison > (either metaphorically or literally). The Buddha taught for 45 > years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest > is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with > you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is > best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help > prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) > > Metta, James > I tend to agree with Doret here. There also seems to be Sutta support for the position that helping others is one aspect of one's own practice and indeed is part of helping our self. This is clearly pointed out in one of my favor ate Suttas, the Acrobat, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-019.html . At first it appears that the Sutta is strong support for the position that each of us can best help others by working on our own practice, and indeed I think this is the best approach. But the Sutta ends with this..... "Monks, a frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself. "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. "A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself." So here, IMO, we can see that "engaged Buddhism," be it helping prisioners or poor, etc, can indeed by an aspect of practice where one is wathing after themselves by watching after others. I think it is a very individual thing, and there are many ways to help, but I dont think as a general rule there has to be a hard line drawn between helping others and helping oneself. ....Ray 31237 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Ken O, Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I seem to operate the reverse of your way. When I am overloaded with work and responsibilities, I fall easily into a rhythm of determined speed. There is no time to notice anything except focus on the current task. Yet I can get sidetracked by a something that gets my attention but could have been ignored. Then I regret the wrong choice and loss of time. At least, when I feel like my body and brain are a robot, I am aware that these are not me, that these are just the car driving me through my day. Everything is different if meditation precedes my work. There is an inner tranquility, what I call a Presence, that directs my priorities wisely and allows awareness to penetrate what I think and say and do. I don't work in haste. I work mindfully, walk mindfully, talk mindfully, etc. Normally, I handle adversity and difficult people with calm detachment, but it comes easier with regular meditation. Yes, I am addicted to those results. Far from needing to stop, I am convinced that I need to meditate more deligently. But I thank you for your considerate advice. With mettta, Doret > even if you lose all your property right now, you will be calm. > People can shout at you, cursing you with many unkind words, you > still be calm .On 3/12/04 7:46 AM, "Ken O" wrote: > Hi Doret > > Sad to say that is the danger of meditation without right > understanding (though as I said before, a few here disagreed with > me), it can be addictive (lobha). I suggest you stop your meditation > completely because you seem to be longing for a certain kind of > experience (but if others tell you not to stop - it is up to you to > choose). > > When you feel you are robot, honestly speaking that shows that dhamma > is not in your living moment. When you stand up, you feel the floor > is very hard, at that moment if you understand that due to body sense > and tangible (earth - hardness), body consciouness arise and that > experience the hardness. And if you reflect further, these moments > come in a fix order without anyone (or self) directing it, it arise > by conditions. And if you reflect further, you realise that why > Buddha say "this is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself". > All the six sense, like you are looking, hearing, smelling etc are > doors to practise. > > If you reflect this here and now, you will have a sense of calm that > even if you lose all your property right now, you will be calm. > People can shout at you, cursing you with many unkind words, you > still be calm. Because you know, the world is empty of a self or > anything pertaining to a self. That is what I mean by calm and not > otherwise. Only when you have this understanding, if you go to > practise meditation, it will become beneficial, no longer a burden. > > > Let me share with you my method for your reference > I memorise certain suttas by hard and there are benefits in it. I > love memorise text because they sounds like poems to me, it inspire > me. Or whenever I feel that lobha or dosa is too strong and I cant > focus, then this replay kicks in. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059a.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-085.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-028a.html > It only take a few hours to remember them because they are repetiive, > just remember the juicy part ;-). > > I also urge you to read Abdhidhamma text - why - because, dhamma is > explain very clearly and in detail in Abdhidhamma. When one learn > clearly, confidence arose. When one learn Abdhidhamma, the > understand of not-self (as expounded by sutta) will be greatly > enhance. I benefit immersely from Abhidhamma - nothing beats it, it > make the sutta text so clear. > > Go to Zolag > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Abdhidhamma in Daily Life or Survey of Paramattha Dhammas as intro > Cetasikas - very important because it describe the three aggreagates > clearly - the feelings, perceptions and mental fabrications > aggregates. > Rupa - very important because it is about the material aggregates. > If you do not wish to know other details just understand the four > great elements and the sense rupas > > Third suggestion - keep reading posts from here, because they are > daily reminders of dhamma. At times you get inspire. If you like joy > - read Icaro posts. If you like serious no nonsense dhamma, read > Nina's. If you like occassional teasers, look for Sarah. If you like > people to give you a hard and blunt talk - thats me ;-). > > Last suggestion - there is no overnight Buddha. It is a very gradual > path. My personal experience, sometimes it can be a painful or > fustrating undertaking. Sometimes we fall down and lost touch, dont > give up, follow it and one day you will reach there. I have never > find any medicine that cure all my grief than the one Buddha teaches. > Many of us here, take a while to reach there and even then we are > still learning, still infants in Buddhism. > > > > Ken O 31238 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Ray, How beautiful! Thank you for the excerpts from the Acrobat Sutta. > "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through > endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. > This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. It is true that watching after others is a form of watching out for oneself because one has to observe right thought, right speech, right action, compassion and loving-kindness. One has to be patient and supportive, etc. > "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through > pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to > it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. There is the catch. Practice! That's the part I have to work on more. With metta and thanks, Doret > On 3/12/04 9:59 AM, "Raymond Hendrickson" wrote: > I tend to agree with Doret here. There also seems to be Sutta support > for the position that helping others is one aspect of one's own practice > and indeed is part of helping our self. This is clearly pointed out in one > of my favor ate Suttas, the Acrobat, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-019.html . At > first it appears that the Sutta is strong support for the position that > each of us can best help others by working on our own practice, and indeed > I think this is the best approach. But the Sutta ends with this..... > > "Monks, a frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll > watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the > thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one > watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after > oneself. > > "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through > pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to > it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. > > "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through > endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. > This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. > > "A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch > after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, > 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after > others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself." > > So here, IMO, we can see that "engaged Buddhism," be it helping > prisioners or poor, etc, can indeed by an aspect of practice where one is > wathing after themselves by watching after others. I think it is a very > individual thing, and there are many ways to help, but I dont think as a > general rule there has to be a hard line drawn between helping others and > helping oneself. ....Ray > 31239 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Vis. lightness , etc. Visuddhimagga, lightness etc (Taken from my Rupas): The following three kinds of rúpa are sometimes produced by citta, sometimes by temperature, sometimes by nutrition. They are: buoyancy or lightness (lahutå) plasticity (mudutå) wieldiness (kammaññatå) Because of lightness, our body is not heavy or sluggish. Because of plasticity it is pliable, it has elasticity and is not stiff. Because of wieldiness it has adaptability. For the movement of the body and the performance of its functions, these three qualities are essential. They arise in the bodies of living beings, not in dead matter. These three rúpas are rúpas without a distinct nature, asabhåva rúpas; they are qualities of rúpa, namely, changeability of rúpa (vikåra rúpas, vikåra meaning change) [1] . The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326) gives the following definitions of these three kinds of rúpa [2] : ... buoyancy of matter has non-sluggishness as its characteristic, removing the heaviness of material objects as its function, quickness of change as its manifestation, buoyant matter as its proximate cause. Next ³plasticity of matter² has non-rigidity as characteristic, removing the rigidity of material objects as function, absence of opposition in all acts due to its own plasticity as manifestation, plastic matter as proximate cause. ³Wieldiness of matter² has workableness suitable or favorable to bodily actions as characteristic, removal of non-workableness as function, non-weakness as manifestation, workable matter as proximate cause. The ³Atthasåliní² also states that these three qualities ³do not abandon each other². When one of them arises, the others have to arise as well. They never arise without the eight inseparable rúpas. Although the qualities of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness arise together, they are different from each other. The ³Atthasåliní² (in the same section) explains their differences. Buoyancy is non-sluggishness and it is like the quick movement of one free from ailment. Plasticity is plasticity of objects like well-pounded leather, and it is distinguished by tractability. Wieldiness is wieldiness of objects like well-polished gold and it is distinguished by suitableness for all bodily actions. When one is sick there is disturbance of the elements of the body, and then the body is sluggish, stiff and without adaptability. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (VIII, 28) about the disturbance of the elements: ... But with the disturbance of the earth element even a strong man¹s life can be terminated if his body becomes rigid, or with the disturbance of one of the elements beginning with water if his body becomes flaccid and putrifies with a flux of the bowels, etc., or if he is consumed by a bad fever, or if he suffers a severing of his limb-joint ligatures. When one is healthy, there are conditions for lightness, plasticity and wieldiness of body. The ³Atthasåliní² states that these three qualities are not produced by kamma, but that they are produced by citta, temperature or nutrition. This commentary states (in the same section, 327): ... Thus ascetics say, ³Today we have agreeable food... today we have suitable weather... today our mind is one-pointed, our body is light, plastic and wieldy.² When we have suitable food and the temperature is right we may notice that we are healthy, that the body is not rigid and that it can move in a supple way. Not only food and temperature, also kusala citta can influence our physical condition. When we apply ourselves to mental development it can condition suppleness of the body. Thus we can verify in our daily life what is taught in the Abhidhamma. Lightness, plasticity and wieldiness condition our bodily movements to be supple. When we are speaking they condition the function of speech to be supple and ³workable². Whenever we notice that there are bodily lightness, plasticity and wieldiness, we should remember that they are qualities of rúpa, conditioned by citta, temperature or nutrition. Footnotes: 1. As we have seen in Ch 6, the two rúpas of bodily intimation, kåya viññatti, and speech intimation, våci viññatti, are also qualities of rúpa that are changeability of rúpa, vikåra rúpas. In some texts bodily intimation and speech intimation are classified separately as the two rúpas of intimation, viññatti rúpas. 2. See also Dhammasangaùi § 639 - 641 and Visuddhimagga XIV, 64. 31240 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Ray and Doret, Appreciated the nice citation, Ray (and agree with it of course). Here's another one that's appropriate, I think: "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for his own. The one who practices for his own benefit but not for that of others. The one who practices for his own benefit and for that of others. "Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre -- burning at both ends, covered with excrement in the middle -- is used as fuel neither in a village nor in the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others. The individual who practices for the benefit of others but not for his own is the higher & more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his own benefit but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of others is, of these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost -- in the same way, of these four, the individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of other is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. "These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." Anguttara Nikaya IV.95 Chavalata Sutta The Firebrand http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-95.html 31241 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:33pm Subject: Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Dear Swee Boon, What is the last category called 'unclear'. Is it a kind of unclassified one? With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi All, > > I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to > confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all > have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of > arahantship. > > (1) insight preceded by tranquility - this refers to one who had > developed the mundane jhanas and used those jhanas as the basis of > contemplation of insight > > (2) tranquility preceded by insight - this refers to one who had not > developed the mundane jhanas but proceded straight into the > contemplation of insight; the tranquility obtained is that of > supramundane jhana. > > (3) tranquility in tandem with insight - this refers to one who had > developed the mundane jhanas but did not use those jhanas as the basis > of contemplation of insight > > (4) unclear > > > Regards > Swee Boon > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html > > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's > monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" > > "Yes, friend," the monks responded. > > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in > tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues > it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the > path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his > obsessions destroyed. > > "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in > my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four > paths." 31242 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence You guys are inspiring me! With metta, Doret On 3/12/04 1:14 PM, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Ray and Doret, > > Appreciated the nice citation, Ray (and agree with it of course). Here's > another one that's appropriate, I think: > > "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the > world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his own benefit nor for > that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for > his own. The one who practices for his own benefit but not for that of > others. The one who practices for his own benefit and for that of others. > > > > "Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre -- burning at both ends, covered > with excrement in the middle -- is used as fuel neither in a village nor in > the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who > practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others. The individual > who practices for the benefit of others but not for his own is the higher & > more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his own benefit > but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The > individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of others is, of > these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & > supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, > butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, > the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost -- in the same way, of these > four, the individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of other > is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. > > > > "These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." > > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.95 > > Chavalata Sutta > > The Firebrand > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-95.html > 31243 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yuganaddha Sutta Hi Swee Boon (Jon, Nina, Suan, RobK), --- nidive wrote: > Hi All, > > I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to > confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all > have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of > arahantship. <...> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html We don’t have the commentaries and just rely on brief notes given by translators or friends that help out like Suan or Nina who uses the Thai as well as Pali more and more. Jon has written many posts on this sutta and included any commentary notes given. I’m in a rush, so have just fished out some of his posts rather than stop to reflect further. I think the second one will be of most interest to you. Maybe you can take up any further discussion with him based on his comments (and those from the commentary) and Nina or Suan can help if there is anything needed more comy assistance: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30594 http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3905.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3929.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27712 http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15330.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3929.html Metta, Sarah ======= 31244 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:08pm Subject: groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, What sort of reality is a rupa group? If it is a paramattha dhamma, what is its distinguishing characteristic (sabhava)? Are cetasikas classified as groups? Is it correct that space and the lightness triad characterize only groups, not individual rupas such as hardness or visible data? Below is a list of rupa groups. Are there more? 8 inseparables: earth, wind, fire, air, color, smell, taste, nutritive essence. 8 + life faculty 8 + bodily intimation 8 + sound 8 + life + eye base, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or female faculty, or male faculty, or heart base 8 + vocal intimation + sound 8 + lightness triad (lightness, malleability, wieldiness) 8 + lightness triad + bodily intimation 8 + lightness triad + vocal intimation + sound Larry 31245 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Swee Boon, yes it is an interesting sutta, because it appears to neither mention absorption (jhana), nor insight (vipassana). While jhana and vipassana are not mentioned in all of the sutta, they are often referred to indirectly. Below you will see I have copied key phrases out of the Pansadhovaka Sutta, AN III.100(i-x) to show where jhana is referred to in several places. This sutta also seems to be quite a bit like the Samadhi Sutta Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 in its attempt to reveal the "fruits" of attainment. Here you will see that classic conditions for jhana expressed "pliant, malleable, or luminous..." You will also see jhana referred to in the term "heightened mind." "these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind..." I f you recall jhana also require the condition of relinquishment, which is expressed in these words, "abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence..." And, this is a description for jhana "But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint... " Now here we have a reference to the 4 "higher knowledeges," or "fruits of the practice. " "And then whichever of the higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening... Finally the single fruit of attainment that this sutta is really interested in is the occult powers. "If he wants, he wields manifold supernormal powers... " And, finally the final "fruit of the practice being free of "effluents" or the "hindrances." "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." This is a good sutta to bring up Swee Boon in reference to the Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.4, because they both talk about the "fruits" or Knowledeges of attainment. Howard, did an excellent job expounding the relevance of this sutta however he may have been a bit to vigorous in his defense. We should also remember every time the word 'concentration' is used, it is most likely for the Pali term 'samadhi,' which implies absorption. Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/12/04 10:49:20 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:51:27 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Jeff, How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) Pansadhovaka Sutta * The Dirt-washer http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Regards, Swee Boon >> 31246 From: Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:44pm Subject: Not so short hello, from Jou Ex: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup Moderator > [mailto:dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: Saturday, 13 March, 2004 10:52 AM > To: josmith.1@b... > Subject: Welcome to dhammastudygroup > > Dear Dhamma Friend, Hi All > Welcome to the group. Much appreciated. Hope you are well and happy. > We hope you will take part in and benefit from the exchange > of views here. So do I. > All new members are invited to consider posting a short > 'Hello'. Other members would be interested to know something > about you, your interest in Buddhism and how you found your way here! In 1986, I got involved with Buddhism. Towards the end of that year I ordained as a Theravaadin monk, which I continued for six years till March 1993. Three of those six years were in intensive Vipassanaa meditation in South East Asia. Since then I have been living as a layman in Australia. I have nearly finished a Bachelor of Arts degree at the University of Queensland in which I majored in Buddhism and Chinese. In my Buddhist major I studied Paali, Sanskrit and Buddhist Chinese. The purpose for majoring in modern Chinese was to help me understand Chinese language for the purpose of reading and translating the 4 Chinese Aagama. They are the Chinese equivalents of the 4 Paali Nikaayaa and were translated from Sanskrit before the intollerant invaders of India destroyed a lot of those texts. Since Early Buddhism disappeared in Chinese quite quickly, those Aagama texts fell into disuse and got fossilised. The latter is a good thing, in a way, since they would not be affected by changing ideas on what the Buddha taught. As we know, all conditioned things are impermanent, so the texts would be changed over time if they were being used, as well as deteriorate over time, whether they are being used or not. I try to apply the 4 Great Authorities and the Kalaama Sutta in my study and practice. Since all conditioned things are impermanent, I accept that even in the 4 Nikaaya and Vinaya there will be texts that are not [according to] the Buddha's teaching. The challenge is to identify what would be corruptions, this means I have to be willing to question my assumptions and cherished [clung to] interpretations of the Buddha's teaching. The amazing thing is that it seems the Buddha gave a study method for his teaching that enables one to have faith in and take him as the teacher and rely on oneself or the Dhamma. An example of my application of this method can be seen at: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html. I have written a book about the Buddha's teaching called "The Gift of the Buddha - a Happy Life", which I am looking to publish. Even thought I just focus on the Paali Texts it has an excellent foreword by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. See link below for more info. if you wish. The Sutta and Vinaya texts are what I focus on, not the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. That is because I wish to focus on that which is generally not doubted to be the Word of the Buddha, for it is his teaching I am interested in. I look for those who want to focus on his teaching, not other's understandings or interpretations of it. From the home page I understand that this group is interested in "the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition". So I am not sure if this group is for me. Please let me know. I only read the emails via the web when I have some spare time. So I ask people to CC me personally when replying to a post of mine, so I know to come back to the group to reply. ---------------------------------------------------- Please Act Urgently: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/urgent_action_please.html If you're replying to a newsgroup or e-group post of mine please also CC to me personally. Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith Promotion of my book, The Gift of the Buddha, with a foreword by HHDL: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/tgotb E-group on my book, get a free older copy: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt E-group on 4 Chinese Aagmas compared with 4 Paali Nikaayaa: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/monkey_magic All e-mail addresses are in square brackets with the @ sign replaced by a space, to make it harder for hackers to use extraction programs. E-mail/MSN: [josmith.1 bigfoot.com] E-mail/Yahoo: [josmith_1_2000 yahoo.com] Student Email: [s351543 student.uq.edu.au] ICQ: http://wwp.icq.com/183459 Home or V-mail: +61 (0)500523778 Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653 S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1 Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and others) and be online with all of them at the same time. Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to the sender. 31247 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:09pm Subject: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Dear Group, I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, but how is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- § 2.12. When dwelling on views as "supreme," a person makes them the utmost thing in the world, &, from that, calls all others inferior and so he's not free from disputes. When he sees his advantage in what's seen, heard, sensed, or in precepts & practices, seizing it there he sees all else as inferior. That, too, say the skilled, is a binding knot: that in dependence on which you regard another as inferior. So a monk shouldn't be dependent on what's seen, heard, or sensed, or on precepts & practices; nor should he conjure a view in the world in connection with knowledge or precepts & practices; shouldn't take himself to be "equal"; shouldn't think himself inferior or superlative. [Sn IV.5] § 2.13. Whoever construes 'equal,' 'superior,' or 'inferior,' by that he'd dispute; whereas to one unaffected by these three, 'equal,' 'superior,' do not occur. Of what would the brahman say 'true' or 'false,' disputing with whom: he in whom 'equal,' 'unequal' are not. Having abandoned home, living free from society, the sage in villages creates no intimacies. Rid of sensual passions, free from yearning, he wouldn't engage with people in quarrelsome debate. Those things aloof from which he should go about in the world: the great one wouldn't take them up & argue for them. As the prickly lotus is unsmeared by water & mud, so the sage, an exponent of peace, without greed, is unsmeared by sensuality & the world. An attainer-of-wisdom isn't measured made proud by views or by what is thought, for he isn't affected by them. He wouldn't be led by action, learning; doesn't reach a conclusion in any entrenchments. For one dispassionate toward perception there are no ties; for one released by discernment, no delusions. Those who grasp at perceptions & views go about butting their heads in the world. [Sn IV.9] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31248 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret You have to excuse me if I am very blunt here. I am known to be barking terrier ;-). D: Everything is different if meditation precedes my work. There is an inner tranquility, what I call a Presence, that directs my priorities > wisely and allows awareness to penetrate what I think and say and do. I don't work in haste. I work mindfully, walk mindfully, talk mindfully, etc. k: So are you telling me that when only there is Presence there, it is consider practising Buddhism. Do you see Buddha tell those who being rude to him, hey wait a mintue I need to go into meditation to have the presence before I can talk to you about dhamma? Do you hear Buddha say in the text, hey monks go to practise later or do you hear him say hey monk, only when you have presence then you are practising? Or do you seen these in the suttas, the guarding the six senses, satipatthana in daily activities like eating, drinking etc are practising. What you think is a fallacy a lot of people fall into. Because they think Buddhism is only later and not now. Because they think there is a need to go a do something special then it is called Buddhism. k: How do you talk mindfully, walk mindfully. Do you observe your walk mindfully or you are experiencing the movement. If you think there is a need to mindfully walk - you already fall into the trap of self because you have an idea one must walk mindfully then it is consider satipatthana. Satipatthana, there is not self that is walking, it is only rupas and cittas that are walking by its own conditions. It is only body consciouness conditioned the rupas to do the walking. It realise there is no me, I or myself. So even when somebody bang you, it is not you that is being hit on, it is only body consciouness, it is only bodily pain and the pain is not I me or myself. That is satipatthana and not observing the movement or noticing the movement. It is the knowledge that things will go to their conditions and these condtions are empty of a self. Even when you do breathing meditation, is it you that breathe or body consciounes that breath. When chest moves up and down in breathing, is it there is an I doing it or there it moves on its own? Can you stop breathing indefinitely. Let me tell you this cold fact, once you are addicted to a result, there is no Nibbana (look at the Relay Chariot MN 24). Buddhism is not about obtaining calmess, it is about seeing the nature of dhammas. From there the calmess attain is truly calmness, not dependent on any self. Ken O 31249 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. HI Sukin Here we go again > However, just as I was reminded about digging my nose with perhaps > a glimpse of the akusala citta and I stopped doing it; it is not > about a 'situation'. Even though it was still on the level of 'thinking', it wasn't about sila either. Besides, I could have continued with the digging, only this time not mindlessly, but with a clear objective, i.e. to clean my nose. ;-) But then there is no guarantee that there will be clear comprehension and that akusala will not be conditioned at any time. But I will not make a rule about 'not to dig my nose'. Same applies to watching the movies or reading the papers. I could have sati before, in the middle of or towards the end of the activity. But I will not make any rules about it! Why? Because it is encouraging of self-view. k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. There is no rules. The rules are simple, if panna is strong enough, you will stop. If not, we will have to reflect why do we not stop. Then this will condition panna. If we continue doing it and hoping sati will grow - that is a fallacy. If we know there is no way we can stop it due to our panna is weak, we leave it as it is but at the meantime we will reflect on its drawback. Then in such a way then panna will grow. Panna will not grow if we think this is condition and I cannot make any rules because all are conditions and let it be. Good Luck. If that is the case, we are no better than the animals. We are different we can consider dhamma, we can reflect on our aksuala actions. No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect and consider dhamma more. S: Reminders are effective only when they are recalled at the appropriate moment. You could be having post-its all over your house with reminders written on them, but are they effective compared to when something is recalled with wisdom? k: if you dont reflect it everyday, do you think wisdom will come out from thin air ;-). If you look at the suttas, it is always ponder and a few times memorise. Why because when we ponder, we condition panna. Dont bank on panna to save your ass if you dont ponder it or remind yourself. S: Is he making excuses, or are there simply not the right conditions for restraint? But what if he did have deep insight while indulging himself? K: Ya sure, Buddha will have encourage us to drink more. That is very rare - how many have you seen in the text (the most famous Anguilima). Or the text is talking about this person, ardently practise and attain deathless. S: On the other hand, someone might be very strict about sila, but self-view may cause him not to have any insight. Of course insight can arise at any time, even to know wrong view. K: I think you dont get what I said, I already mention, no panna no sila. S: I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. K: You are very wrong, it is not just wrong view that hinder satipatthana. It is akusala that hinder satipatthana. Wrong view is only when we think there is am I that is practising the path? Ken O 31250 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 0:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello Doret, KenO, Mike, Ray, Philip and all in this interesting thread, People often act in order to fulfil their own needs, so it is often difficult to know when one is 'practising' for one's own good or for the good of others. Doesn't it depend on the quality of the citta (consciousness) at that time? There are uncountable citta that arise in the 'blink of an eye' and I can certainly think of quite a number of mine that are akusala (unwholesome), or mixed akusala and kusala, when the action 'seems' to be entirely kusala (wholesome). e.g. having bought a take away meal from the hospital canteen and realised after eating the meal that I hadn't paid. I went back and paid, but can remember feeling annoyance at one point that I had to make a second trip up the stairs (aversion) and also of feeling critical of the volunteer who served me - "It's their job to make sure they ask for the money", and, as well, a fleeting "Oh what a good person I am" feeling (conceit). So - the action may have seemed admirable to others, but I know what was really going on inside my head. :-) The Teacher taught about Intention = kamma, not achievements. And intention isn't a solid lasting mindstate. It arises and falls away momentarily. If an intention to act arises out of the need to be thought of as 'a good and caring person', the cittas include mana - conceit, ditthi - self view; or if the intention to do good arises because one feels sorry for some category of others the cittas include dosa - aversion, ditthi - self view; Help others by all means - but be aware of the ever changing motives and intentions. Practising for one's own benefit and the benefit of others, doesn't mean one has to go out and be involved in welfare projects... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-020.html "A monk endowed with five qualities practices both for his own benefit and for that of others. Which five? "There is the case where a monk is himself consummate in virtue and encourages others to be consummate in virtue. He himself is consummate in concentration and encourages others to be consummate in concentration. He himself is consummate in discernment and encourages others to be consummate in discernment. He himself is consummate in release and encourages others to be consummate in release. He himself is consummate in the knowledge & vision of release and encourages others to be consummate in the knowledge & vision of release. "Endowed with these five qualities, a monk practices both for his own benefit and for that of others." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-096.html "And who is the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others? There is the case where a certain individual practices for the subduing of passion within him/herself and encourages others in the subduing of passion; practices for the subduing of aversion within him/herself and encourages others in the subduing of aversion; practices for the subduing of delusion within him/herself and encourages others in the subduing of delusion. Such is the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31251 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:22am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 11 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as a dove sings , there hears the song of the bird. Its 'koo..' is sound. It is auditory object. It is sound-sense-base. This means that the sound is the base for arising of hearing-consciousness. The sound is sadda. It is rupa. It is called sadda arammana or auditory object. As it is a base for hearing-consciousness it is called sadda-ayatana or sound-sense-base. Its 'koo..' is heard because there is ear. The ear is sense receiver. It is ear-sense-base. This means that the ear is the base for arising of hearing-consciousness. The ear is sota. It is called sota vatthu. It is called sota pasada. As it is a base for hearing-consciousness it is called sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. There are saddayatana ( the 'koo..' of bird song ) and sotaayatana ( the ear ). The air supports. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise hearing-consciousness or sotavinnana citta. There is the song 'koo..'. There is saddayatana or sound-sense-base. There is the ear. There is sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. There arises sotavinnana citta or hearing-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam 31252 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. HI Ken 0 > Here we go again --------------------------------------------------------------------- As you wish, pal! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Not necessarily. By the way, Akusala Dhammas are Dhammas - and here lies the pañña: separating the subtile from the coarse matters. Cf. the initial chapter of Dhammasangani "Mattika". -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > S: I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. > > K: You are very wrong, it is not just wrong view that hinder > satipatthana. It is akusala that hinder satipatthana. Wrong view is > only when we think there is am I that is practising the path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- At applied questions, satipatthana is no more hinded than any other matter on Theravada Buddhism - some can think that only chosen ones can put it in action, others can conceive that now the gates of Satipatthana are open to all human beings fitted to practise such techniques. In all this questions the Middle Path is really paramount! mettaya, Ícaro 31253 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Hi Htoo, It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. What is your understanding regarding this matter, Htoo? Regards, Swee Boon 31254 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Hi, Christine - In a message dated 3/13/04 2:11:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. > I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, but how > is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ I don't take these as advising no discussion, but only not clinging to views, quarreling, and feeling that one has to "win". Some specfics which lead me to this perspective are the following: When dwelling on views as "supreme," a person makes them the utmost thing in the world, &, from that, calls all others inferior and so he's not free from disputes. So a monk ... shouldn't think himself inferior or superlative. Whoever construes 'equal,' 'superior,' or 'inferior,' by that he'd dispute; whereas to one unaffected by these three, 'equal,' 'superior,' do not occur. Rid of sensual passions, free from yearning, he wouldn't engage with people in *quarrelsome* debate. [Emphasis mine] An attainer-of-wisdom isn't measured made proud by views or by what is thought, for he isn't affected by them. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31255 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken (and Doret) - In a message dated 3/13/04 2:18:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Doret > > You have to excuse me if I am very blunt here. I am known to be > barking terrier ;-). > > D: Everything is different if meditation precedes my work. There is > an inner tranquility, what I call a Presence, that directs my > priorities > >wisely and allows awareness to penetrate what I think and say and > do. I don't work in haste. I work mindfully, walk mindfully, talk > mindfully, etc. > > k: So are you telling me that when only there is Presence there, it > is consider practising Buddhism. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Excuse me, but I didn't see a characterization there of what is to be considered "practising Buddhism." Doret merely said he does way better when his day begins with meditation. ------------------------------------------- Do you see Buddha tell those who> > being rude to him, hey wait a mintue I need to go into meditation to > have the presence before I can talk to you about dhamma? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Did Doret suggest that? Also, that's the Buddha you are talking about, right? Not Joe Worldling. ------------------------------------------ Do you hear> > Buddha say in the text, hey monks go to practise later or do you hear > him say hey monk, only when you have presence then you are > practising? > Or do you seen these in the suttas, the guarding the six senses, > satipatthana in daily activities like eating, drinking etc are > practising. What you think is a fallacy a lot of people fall into. > Because they think Buddhism is only later and not now. Because they > think there is a need to go a do something special then it is called > Buddhism. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is all a red herring, Ken. The Buddha repeatedly encouraged meditation, and Doret has said nothing more than that his meditating serves him well, particularly making an ongoing mindfulness practice more effective for him. What, other than a distaste for meditating, would prompt a questioning of this? -------------------------------------------------- > > > k: How do you talk mindfully, walk mindfully. Do you observe your > walk mindfully or you are experiencing the movement. If you think > there is a need to mindfully walk - you already fall into the trap of > self because you have an idea one must walk mindfully then it is > consider satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: What if one thinks there is a need to discuss, or evaluate, or write letters on e-mail lists, or reply to same, or criticize the form of someone's practice? What if one thinks there is a need to do anything? Isn't that also "falling into the trap of self?" We're all caught in that trap. Thus it would seem that we dare not act in any way at any time! ---------------------------------------------------- Satipatthana, there is not self that is> > walking, it is only rupas and cittas that are walking by its own > conditions. It is only body consciouness conditioned the rupas to > do the walking. It realise there is no me, I or myself. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: These are mere words, Ken. I agree with them, but that is just belief. The mind must be trained until it *knows*, and doesn't just believe. As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta commences with that. ---------------------------------------------------- So even> > when somebody bang you, it is not you that is being hit on, it is > only body consciouness, it is only bodily pain and the pain is not I > me or myself. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Quite true, Ken. But, on the street, if ever someone mindlessly or intentionally slams hard into you, especially if s/he does so with evident purposeful enjoyment, does anger not flare? Right there is the sense of self asserting itself, Ken. Believing that there is no self is just opinion. Coming to that belief, while a critical beginning, is no substitute for weakening the sense of self and its effect. The sense of self will be with us for aeons, and it's presence (not Doret's "presence" ;-) should not be taken as a justification for doing nothing. ------------------------------------------------- That is satipatthana and not observing the movement or> > noticing the movement. It is the knowledge that things will go to > their conditions and these condtions are empty of a self. Even when > you do breathing meditation, is it you that breathe or body > consciounes that breath. When chest moves up and down in breathing, > is it there is an I doing it or there it moves on its own? Can you > stop breathing indefinitely. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you are preaching to the choir, Ken. All Buddhists accept this. This is not the point. The point that you seem to make is that since we are overcome by sense of self (until arahanthood), one should not meditate. To raise an aging issue, such a position is certainly idiosyncratic. But more than that, I would say it is extreme and false, and not taught by the Buddha - but, of course , that's just my opinion. -------------------------------------------------- > > Let me tell you this cold fact, once you are addicted to a result, > there is no Nibbana (look at the Relay Chariot MN 24). Buddhism is > not about obtaining calmess, it is about seeing the nature of > dhammas. From there the calmess attain is truly calmness, not > dependent on any self. > > > Ken O > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31256 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Ken O, I appreciate your desire to help clarify my thinking. But this is getting us (me, at least) far afield. It is impossible for me to explain, or for you to analyze, my experience in specific detail that can be argued or clarified. It just is. All I am saying is that if I start my day with formal meditation, even if it just walking meditation, the rest of the day is taken care of. There is an inner calmness, a mindfulness, that I do not have to call into being any more than the moments of bliss that may also come spontaneously. This state just is. It follows its own laws and sustains me. I originally asked whether Theravadin Buddhism is opposed to engaged Buddhism. I see there is at least some feeling on this list that it is not. That was my hope because I have profound respect for Theravadin Buddhism and for the Thervadin monk who introduced me to it, but I also am an engaged Buddhist in the sense that I keep a magazine alive that brings help and spiritual nourishment to men and women on Death Row and in solitary confinement. Just yesterday my first issue of Turning Wheel arrived, and it contains eight full pages listing resources on socially engaged Buddhism. It also refers the reader to the website where there are tons more links and resources. So there is a widespread international movement devoted to engaged Buddhism. What this interchange tells me is that Buddha wisely took into consideration the various needs of future followers, and that is why there are diverse schools and lineages of Buddhism, which nevertheless share an essential Buddhist core. And what this list itself tells me is how helpful it is to have a place where problems can be described because their very description is therapeutic and clarifying. And using the list to find the middle way is a much-needed service. Thank you all for your contribution to my well-being and work. With metta, Doret On 3/12/04 11:17 PM, "Ken O" wrote: > k: So are you telling me that when only there is Presence there, it > is consider practising Buddhism. Do you see Buddha tell those who > being rude to him, hey wait a mintue I need to go into meditation to > have the presence before I can talk to you about dhamma? Do you hear > Buddha say in the text, hey monks go to practise later or do you hear > him say hey monk, only when you have presence then you are > practising? 31257 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: impermanence 2. conditions. Hi Howard, You wrote: H: Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction > is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and > there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes. N: Conditions. Good reminder. Again, I can say about myself: I am like a parrot, repeating texts without applying them in my life. Personally many details help me to understand at least theoretically the three characteristics. I am delighted with all details given in the Visuddhimagga, for examples about rupas we study now. (I do not expect others to be equally delighted:-)) Rob K likes to quote texts about the need of details for deluded people. The Buddha taught more details to the extent people were more deluded. I think you have Ledi Sayadaw's book: he writes about the synchrony of relations (I can recommend this), and about the types of conditions. Phenomena are conditioning factors or conditioned factors. I quote: Once we study conditions we have to differentiate them and consider them as they operate at a given moment, such as at the moment of seeing, or hearing. There is much more to consider, but I just would like to show the complexity of conditions. I see them as different from just attributes. H: Try to distinguish, for example, between happiness being a mental condition and being a mental attribute. N: I think that we should consider first with what type of citta it is arising: happiness that is kusala, or akusala, or neither. Is happiness as you see it feeling cetasika or the cetasika that is piti, rapture of joy?. It is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and in its turn it conditions citta and cetasikas and also bodily phenomena. H: Also, for that matter, why is not hardness just as much of > a "modality" or "attribute" as lightness? As I see it, none of this holds > together. N: We are studying now lightness, a mode or characteristic of rupa, but not concrete matter. As to hardness, this is the Earth Element, one of the four Great Elements. It is concrete matter. Just a few thoughts. Concluding with a helpful quote from Jon about conditions: end quote. Nina. 31258 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Message from Andrew Dear Ken H, please pass on our feelings of condolescence to Andrew and Sandra. I appreciate it very much that they took such good care of Sandra's father who stayed with them for a long time. Nina and Lodewijk. > --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina, >> >> I passed on your messages to Andrew and he told me to thank you for >> thinking of him; he will be back sooner or later. Sad news, >> however, about Sandra's father. He died this morning – quite a lot >> sooner than they were expecting. 31259 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spinning out Pannati Dear Philip, I enjoy these reminders in old posts you send now and then and also your added remarks. I need such reminders about spinning out concepts. Appreciating this, thank you. I can add something. I remember Rob K's example: when he was leaning against something soft in a densely packed Tokio metro he was clinging to a concept of a woman. Afterwards he discovered that it was an old man with a down jacket. It shows the illusionary nature of concepts we are inclined to take for very important. We can learn all the time if we do not try to ignore akusala that arises. You mentioned that you first thought that being enlightened means being an arahat. The first stage of enlightenment is the stage of the sotapanna. The sotapanna has no more wrong view but still has lobha, dosa and moha. However, he does not transgress the five precepts anymore. The fact that there are four stages shows us how difficult it is to eradicate defilements. Wrong view has to be eradicated first. This teaches us something important: we should not ignore lobha, dosa and moha, but learn to see it as it is: conditioned realities that are anatta. Nina. op 12-03-2004 14:22 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > Whether we have a sitting practice or not, we will to > continue to spin out lots of pannati. If we think of > the pannati as an obstacle to progress, we are going > to find the development of awareness very difficult > indeed." (Jon) > > I will surely continue to spin out pannati, but will now be able to > see where it can play a role in my beginner's satipatthana practice. > 31260 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Larry, I always hesitate to say much about the Dependent Origination, although I think that we should see it as pertaining to our life now. Take: consciousness, vi~n~naa.na conditions nama rupa. Nama are cetasikas. We see in Vis. Ch XVII, 207, that consciousness here stands for vipakacitta: at rebirth and throughout life. We have to consider the different moments of vipaka and then see: what type of condition these are for what types of cetasikas and rupas. And also: by which ways (of the 24 classes) the conditioning factor is a condition for the dhamma that is conditioned. Take seeing: it is conditioned by kamma of the past by way of kamma-condition and by strong dependence condition. It is conditioned by visible object by way of object-condition. It is conditioned by the eyebase by way of support-condition. It is conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas (contact, feeling, etc.) by way of conascent condition and other conditions. In its turn it conditions nama, and these are here in the context of Dependent Origination the accompanying cetasikas of contact, feeling, etc. And seeing also conditions the succeeding citta by way of contiguity condition. As the Vis. states: no single fruit from a single cause. That makes it so complicated! And in the D.P. not all conditions are mentioned, but the more obvious are given. op 06-03-2004 15:47 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > First, do you agree that from "contact" to "clinging" in Dependent > Arising is the same as consciousness process? If so, what role > does "clinging" play? My contention is that it is accumulation. N: As explained in the Vis. XVII, 228 etc. and also in Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 219, it seems that contact and feeling are on the vipaka side. (Ven. Nyanatiloka, in B. Dict. ,sees it differently and also includes kusala and akusala feelings.) Then craving, clinging occur during the moments of javana, and at such moments there is accumulation of tendencies or performing of kamma. L: Second, I can see why you would want to maintain the distinguishing > characteristics of lobha and moha, but it seems to me in Dependent > Arising all three root cittas are included in the category > of "thirst" (tanha). What about that? N: The Dependent Origination teaches us that we are in the cycle at this moment. Because of ignorance (mentioned first) and clinging or thirst. We are clinging to life at this moment, to all sense objects. That is tanha is a link. Sankhara, formations, includes all kinds of akusala and also kusala. Nina. 31261 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Nina - Only a couple comments are interspersed by me in the following. In a message dated 3/13/04 1:31:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > You wrote: > H: Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction > >is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and > >there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes. > N: Conditions. Good reminder. Again, I can say about myself: I am like a > parrot, repeating texts without applying them in my life. > Personally many details help me to understand at least theoretically the > three characteristics. I am delighted with all details given in the > Visuddhimagga, for examples about rupas we study now. (I do not expect > others to be equally delighted:-)) Rob K likes to quote texts about the need > of details for deluded people. The Buddha taught more details to the extent > people were more deluded. > I think you have Ledi Sayadaw's book: he writes about the synchrony of > relations (I can recommend this), and about the types of conditions. > Phenomena are conditioning factors or conditioned factors. I quote: > synchrony of relations or paccaya-ghatanaa. All phenomena are called > sa-paccayaa (related to causes), and paticcasamupannaa (arising from a > conjuncture of circumstances); because, in arising and in standing, they > coexist with, or have, or are conditioned by, these twenty-four causal > relations.> > Once we study conditions we have to differentiate them and consider them as > they operate at a given moment, such as at the moment of seeing, or hearing. > There is much more to consider, but I just would like to show the complexity > of conditions. I see them as different from just attributes. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Two things. Firstly, I have internet material by Ledi Sayadaw bookmarked. I should look that over! Secondly, I do not see conditions as different from attributes, and I don't think the Abhidhamma and the commentaries do either. More about that later on. -------------------------------------------------- > H: Try to distinguish, for example, between happiness being a mental > condition and being > a mental attribute. > N: I think that we should consider first with what type of citta it is > arising: happiness that is kusala, or akusala, or neither. Is happiness as > you see it feeling cetasika or the cetasika that is piti, rapture of joy?. > It is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and in its turn > it conditions citta and cetasikas and also bodily phenomena. > H: Also, for that matter, why is not hardness just as much of > >a "modality" or "attribute" as lightness? As I see it, none of this holds > >together. > N: We are studying now lightness, a mode or characteristic of rupa, but not > concrete matter. As to hardness, this is the Earth Element, one of the four > Great Elements. It is concrete matter. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't believe in concrete matter, Nina! ;-)) I believe in sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and bodily sensations such as hardness/softness, warmth/cold, itches, pressures, etc. (Very idiosyncratic!!!!!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > Just a few thoughts. > Concluding with a helpful quote from Jon about conditions: > the last book of the Abhidhamma , the importance of which is greatly > stressed in the commentaries and Abhidhammathasangaha is all about > conditions. Here we learn that > "moments" are extraordinarily complex instants in time with > influences from past > and present factors. The dhammas themselves are not > different from the quality they posses. In fact the > Atthasalini says that "there is > no other thing than the quality born by it" . > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Nina, exactly!! That is precisely why I say that the matter versus material-attribute distinction is not maintainable. That is exactly why I say "All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes." ------------------------------------------------- And no> > moment is identical with another-It is true that such > dhammas as sanna(perception) or vedana (feeling) or vinnana > (consciouness) are classified under the > same heading but the actual quality is influenced by > so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of > feeling is exactly the same. Also because similar conditions arise > repeatedly nor are succeeding moments totally different. The same > feeling can appear [and I stress appear] to last for seconds because > of this. The Abhidhamma allows us to understad that this is illusion > and to learn to study directly the present moment so that eventually > this idea of permanance is broken.> > end quote. > Nina. > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31262 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Re: Yuganaddha Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Htoo, It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html "Then there is the case where a monk's mind ...becomes unified & concentrated. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. What is your understanding regarding this matter, Htoo? Regards, Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your reply. To be honest, I am not as good as you at Dhamma study. I also find the last type or the 4th type a bit unclear. The 4th type does not tell whether there is preceeding tranquility. Nor does preceeding insight. Nor does in tandem. I feel that this type is not labeled which is good, in my opinion. A monk who declared that he attained arahatship in the presence of Venerable Ananda, has his restlessness concerning Dhamma well under control became calm and saw inward and attained arahatta magga nana. Even though it is not stated that whether there is preceeding tranquil or insight, both are there while he attained arahatship. Regarding Sangha Sutta or Pansadhovaka Sutta, I feel it is mentioning vitekkama, pariyutthana, and anusaya kilesa and their screening through sila, samadhi and panna. Latter parts are, I think, cittanupassana and with that bhikkhus attain higher nana. With much respect, Htoo Naing 31263 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:47pm Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Dhamma Friends, This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to enlightenment which is wrong. When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. There are still some people who do not have enough time to read Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be contaminated with wrong ideas. May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, Htoo Naing P.S: Please see the following replies to the original message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta pitaka) to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are commonly understood as the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as distinct practice paths. They are simply the attainments that one arrives at through the single practice regimen of right mindfulness (sama-sati), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just minor correction here. Samma means right, good, genuine, true. It is samma sati. It is not sama-sati. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here it should be samma samadhi instead of sama-samadhi. Samma samadhi is right concentration. It is not right meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..which are the 7th and 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here stating without any supportive evidence. No sutta says that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin directly or indirectly. This is the very first intrusion into right dhamma to deviate into twisted form. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One who has absorption has insight, one who has insight has absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is simply the other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are simply different aspects of the same thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is continuation of own idea trying to twist the existing dhamma. And there is no evidence that says this in any suttas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: First talked 2 sides of coin that is insight and absorption. Now moves to 2 aspects of absorption. Let us see what are going on here. Bring wisdom with you all the time otherwise unexpected snake would bite you all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..it is the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce heat, and the other is to produce light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Inappropriate metaphor and it does not show anything more clearer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The same is true of absorption (samadhi), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not criticizing but words need to be correct. Jhana is translated as absorption. So absorption is jhana. Samadhi on the other hand has many implications. There are samadhi that are not absorption. So usage of words need to be careful and flawless. Otherwise everything will be mixing up and be creating all the mess. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..It produces both ecstasy (jhana), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When jhana has been translated as absorption, ecstasy the word will create another problem.So it is not appropriate here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ...and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Insight arises while in samadhi. This does not necessarily to be in absorption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice regimen, however there is no clear evidence to support this belief in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is only one Path. That Path is NEP Noble Eightfold Path. This appeared early in the very first sutta and appear repeatedly in later suttas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of four distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products or fruits of the path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here is totally wrong and own assumptions are dangerously created. Dear all members of DSG, could you please read up Samadhi Sutta Anguttara Nikaya Volume IV.41 ? There mentions about samadhi very clearly. Samadhi Sutta is not about the 4 products of fruits of the path. It is just about samadhi. When sati is practised samadhi might develop. Samadhi that develop may lead to one or all 4 states. The first destination is jhana. Nothing more than that. The 2nd destination is attainment of knowledge and wisdom. This is not stated in connection with jhana or absorption. You all can see with your own eyes at AN IV.41 Samadhi Sutta. The 3rd destination is mindfulness and alertness. The 4th destination is the ending of effluents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are four "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the Buddha that clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The name of the Sutta is the Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No one say Four Paths except one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore I believe it is reasonable to say this sutta is simply speaking of the four fruits that are a product of the single practice of mindfulness (sati). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here can be seen how own assumption has been made without supportive evidence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or fruits, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If it says 4 possible destinations, it will be appropriate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). And, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here faults again. Not sama-samadhi. The right word is samma samadhi. Samma means right. Samadhi means concentration. So samma samadhi means 'right concentration'. It is not right absorption. When samadhi and its implications are not well digested such problems have to arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions must be the four results of the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Flaw again. No sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. Here you all can see that there is own assumption that is '' These 4 descriptions must be..'' This means own assumption. Could you all please read Samadhi Sutta thoroughly. Then you will see all the flaws in this original message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path, which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not exact translation of 4 cornerstones. 1. Kayanupassana satipatthana Contemplation on physical body. This involve 1.Anapana Pabba ( breathing meditation ) 2.Iriyapatha Pabba ( positional meditation ) 3.Sampajanna Pabba ( clear understanding meditation ) 4.Patikulamanasika Pabba (contemplative meditation on impurities of body parts ) 5.Dhatumanasika Pabba ( elemental meditation on body ) 6.Navasivathika Pabba ( contemplative meditation on 9 stages of decomposition of corpse ) 2. Vedananupassana satipatthana Many things to talk. 3. Cittanupassana satipatthana Many things to talk. 4. Dhammanupassana satipatthana Many things to talk. So it is not simply ( breath, body, senses, mind ) which again shows there omits Dhammanupassana which is the most important. This reveals inability to understand Mahasatipatthana Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The result of right mindfulness (sama-sati) is absorption (sama- samadhi). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-sati. It is samma sati. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Absorption simply has four characteristics: mindfulness (sati); ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha), or what the Buddha called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana);" insight into seeing things as they are (vipassana); and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, or psychic abilities (lokuttara balani). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here flaws and writing is not clear. First said 4 characteristics: But there are 1.sati 2.piiti ( which should be 'piti' ) 3.sukha --- mixed as jhana 4.vipassana 5.lokuttara balani All the mess. The 1st Jhana has 1.vitakka 2.vicara 3.piti 4.sukha 5.ekaggata ---------------------------------------------------------------------- How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice regimen of Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It is through attainment that we can find out for certain if there are four fruits or four paths. All one need do is practice Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahasatipatthana is not the practice of absorption. All Buddhists know this sutta and its essence. Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. This shows persistent invasion into right dhamma trying to twist into wrong way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..and one will find out whether there are four fruits to the practice or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these separate fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a consequence of the dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here fruits do not clear. But satipatthana is not the practice of absorption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of concentration (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here gravely wrong. Satipatthana is not the practice of concentration. And satipatthana does not lead to mindfulness. Instaed mindfulness leads to satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..which leads to absorption (samadhi) which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, mindfulness (sati), ecstasy (jhana), insight (vipassana), and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane abilities (lokuttara balani). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Satipatthana Sutta does not say this. Nor Samadhi Sutta say this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 >Thanissaro Bhikkhu's version is at this URL: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html >"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration (samadhi). Which four? ... when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents. > "These are the four developments of concentration. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/files/ > > Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31264 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:50pm Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Swee Boon and Jeff, I have checked Pansadhovaka Sutta. There does not mention attainments of jhana. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in > it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. > > > Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) > Pansadhovaka Sutta * > The Dirt-washer > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 31265 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views_&_Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.12-13_ Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. > I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, but how > is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? <...> > § 2.12. > When dwelling on views > as "supreme," > a person makes them > the utmost thing > in the world, <...> > [Sn IV.5] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered .... I discussed these suttas in some details ages ago with Erik and also Anders I recall and looked at other translations and so on. The important point, I think, is that the views refer to wrong or dogmatic views (micha ditthi) and the danger is in the clinging to them. Hence it is the wrong views and clinging to rite and ritual that have to be eradicated first. It’s really good to go through this series of translated suttas because they are so commonly read and as I see it, so commonly misinterpreted. I wrote before (to Anders): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9104.html “Thanks for your quotes from the Sutta Nipata and in particular, the Dutthatthaka and Paramatthaka suttas on views. I know we’ve discussed these areas before, but I’d like to stress that here the views are ‘not pure’. In other words, they are wrong views (micha ditthi), included amongst the many kinds discussed in the Brahmajala Sutta ‘net of views’.” I look forward to other comments. .... Christine, I greatly appreciated your post on ‘Engaged Buddhism’ and some of the other sutta posts with your introductions. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris, news and comments on some current topics from B.Bodhi later when I get back this eve or tomorrow. =============== 31266 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Phil It was inspiring to read what you said about your realisation of the pitfalls of trying to 'transform dosa'. Obviously there were accumulated tendencies to see this, it just needed you to come across mention of it somewhere! So the credit goes to you ;-)). --- Philip wrote: > > Hello all > I'll just add that another benefit of the practice I described > above that it helps the other person. Being friendly towards > aversion- > causing people helps them more than glaring at them or scolding > them. > For those of us with altruistic leanings, helping others albeit > through wrong understanding may be as important as liberating > ourselves through right understanding. I expect I'll be continuing > on > this double track for awhile. There are lots of 'benefits' of lots of different 'practices'. However, benefits don't make a practice kusala ;-)) So rather than thinking in terms of a 'practice', it may be more useful to think in terms of developing kusala of whatever kind whenever the opportunity arises. Just to follow this on a little, even where some kusala is involved, it doesn't mean that panna arises or is more likely to arise as a result (all forms of kusala except the path itself can be developed without having heard the dhamma). And as regards panna, only panna that is of the level of satipatthana constitutes the path taught by the Buddha. All other kusala, including panna of the level of samatha, simply adds fuel to the forces that keep us continuing in samsara. Of course, all forms of kusala were highly praised by the Buddha and are to be developed, but we should understand clearly the relationship between kusala in general and the kusala that is path-moment, namely that while kusala in general is a necessary supporting condition for satipatthana/vipassana, it does not directly condition the latter's arising. The conditions for satipatthana/vipassana are unique and, in a sense, independent of the other forms of kusala. This is important to be clear about because we tend naturally to associate the arising of satipatthana with the presence of other forms of kusala (especially a level of calmness), which can be an obstacle to present moment awareness when the present moment doesn't match our idea of 'suitable/appropriate'. The conditions that are specific to the development of satipatthana are the most valuable things we can learn about in this lifetime. Jon 31267 From: Carl Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path/Contamination --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: >Htoo: Dear Dhamma Friends, > > This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and > samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly > highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to > enlightenment which is wrong. > > When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws > which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all > mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. > > Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the > message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they > all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. > > There are still some people who do not have enough time to read > Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as > a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine > message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. > > You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the > valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be > contaminated with wrong ideas. > > May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. > > With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ...........................SNIP................................... .................................................................. Carl: Dear Htoo, I so much appreciate your activities concerning this poster. The DSG is a special place that stands firm in the teaching of Theravadian Abhidhamma. The continual references to and reliance on the suttas and abhidhamma prevents those that might contaminate the teachings from doing so. Different view points, thoughts, and ideas as expressed in the DSG are it's charm. But attempting to corrupt the foundation of the sutta's in word and meaning, towards one's own agenda is not right. Mr Jeff Brooks is an intellegent, compeling, skillful, persuasive and seductive writer. He posts(spams) on several boards in the same manner and has a web site. I for one will no longer read his material as I find it untrustworthy and intentionally misleading. (IMHO of course.) ""Htoo: May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas.""" Thanks Carl 31268 From: m. nease Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Htoo Naing, Well said as usual--thanks. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and > samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly > highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to > enlightenment which is wrong. > > When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws > which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all > mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. > > Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the > message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they > all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. > > There are still some people who do not have enough time to read > Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as > a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine > message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. > > You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the > valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be > contaminated with wrong ideas. > > May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. > > With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > P.S: Please see the following replies to the original message. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta > pitaka) to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" > or "techniques" which are commonly understood as the 'moist' > absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is > clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as > distinct practice paths. > > They are simply the attainments that one arrives at through the > single practice regimen of right mindfulness (sama-sati), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Just minor correction here. Samma means right, good, genuine, > true. It is samma sati. It is not sama-sati. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here it should be samma samadhi instead of sama-samadhi. Samma > samadhi is right concentration. It is not right meditation. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..which are the 7th and 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. > > Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption > are simply two sides of the same coin. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here stating without any supportive evidence. No sutta says > that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin > directly or indirectly. This is the very first intrusion into right > dhamma to deviate into twisted form. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One who has absorption has insight, one who has insight has > absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, > and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is ? simply the other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are > simply different aspects of the same thing. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This is continuation of own idea trying to twist the existing > dhamma. And there is no evidence that says this in any suttas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: First talked 2 sides of coin that is insight and absorption. > Now moves to 2 aspects of absorption. Let us see what are going on > here. Bring wisdom with you all the time otherwise unexpected snake > would bite you all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ..it is the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce > heat, and the other is to produce light. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Inappropriate metaphor and it does not show anything more > clearer. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The same is true of absorption (samadhi), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not criticizing but words need to be correct. Jhana is > translated as absorption. So absorption is jhana. Samadhi on the > other hand has many implications. There are samadhi that are not > absorption. So usage of words need to be careful and flawless. > Otherwise everything will be mixing up and be creating all the mess. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ..It produces both ecstasy (jhana), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: When jhana has been translated as absorption, ecstasy the word > will create another problem.So it is not appropriate here. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ...and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the other. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Insight arises while in samadhi. This does not necessarily to > be in absorption. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an > assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice > regimen, however there is no clear evidence to support this belief in > the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There is only one Path. That Path is NEP Noble Eightfold Path. > This appeared early in the very first sutta and appear repeatedly in > later suttas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of > four distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products > or fruits of the path. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here is totally wrong and own assumptions are dangerously > created. > > Dear all members of DSG, could you please read up Samadhi Sutta > Anguttara Nikaya Volume IV.41 ? There mentions about samadhi very > clearly. > > Samadhi Sutta is not about the 4 products of fruits of the path. It > is just about samadhi. When sati is practised samadhi might develop. > > Samadhi that develop may lead to one or all 4 states. The first > destination is jhana. Nothing more than that. > > The 2nd destination is attainment of knowledge and wisdom. This is > not stated in connection with jhana or absorption. You all can see > with your own eyes at AN IV.41 Samadhi Sutta. > > The 3rd destination is mindfulness and alertness. > > The 4th destination is the ending of effluents. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are > four "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the > Buddha that clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The > name of the Sutta is the Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: No one say Four Paths except one. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Therefore I believe it is reasonable to say this sutta is simply > speaking of the four fruits that are a product of the single practice > of mindfulness (sati). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here can be seen how own assumption has been made without > supportive evidence. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or > fruits, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: If it says 4 possible destinations, it will be appropriate. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > And, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here faults again. Not sama-samadhi. The right word is samma > samadhi. Samma means right. Samadhi means concentration. So samma > samadhi means 'right concentration'. It is not right absorption. When > samadhi and its implications are not well digested such problems have > to arise. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking > of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was > not. These 4 descriptions must be the four results of the single > attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Flaw again. No sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right > concentration. It is not right absorption. > > Here you all can see that there is own assumption that is '' These 4 > descriptions must be..'' This means own assumption. Could you all > please read Samadhi Sutta thoroughly. Then you will see all the flaws > in this original message. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same > practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a > single practice path, which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of > mindfulness. > > That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This is not exact translation of 4 cornerstones. > > 1. Kayanupassana satipatthana > > Contemplation on physical body. This involve > > 1.Anapana Pabba ( breathing meditation ) > 2.Iriyapatha Pabba ( positional meditation ) > 3.Sampajanna Pabba ( clear understanding meditation ) > 4.Patikulamanasika Pabba (contemplative meditation on impurities of > body parts ) > 5.Dhatumanasika Pabba ( elemental meditation on body ) > 6.Navasivathika Pabba ( contemplative meditation on 9 stages of > decomposition of corpse ) > > 2. Vedananupassana satipatthana > > Many things to talk. > > 3. Cittanupassana satipatthana > > Many things to talk. > > 4. Dhammanupassana satipatthana > > Many things to talk. > > So it is not simply ( breath, body, senses, mind ) which again shows > there omits Dhammanupassana which is the most important. This reveals > inability to understand Mahasatipatthana Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The result of right mindfulness (sama-sati) is absorption (sama- > samadhi). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-sati. It is samma sati. Not sama-samadhi. It is > samma samadhi. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Absorption simply has four characteristics: > > mindfulness (sati); > ecstasy (piiti) and > joy (sukha), or what the Buddha called "a pleasant abiding in the > here and now (jhana);" > insight into seeing things as they are (vipassana); > and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, or psychic > abilities (lokuttara balani). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here flaws and writing is not clear. First said 4 > characteristics: > > But there are > 1.sati > 2.piiti ( which should be 'piti' ) > 3.sukha --- mixed as jhana > 4.vipassana > 5.lokuttara balani > > All the mess. > > The 1st Jhana has > 1.vitakka > 2.vicara > 3.piti > 4.sukha > 5.ekaggata > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice > regimen of Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption > (sama-samadhi). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right > concentration. It is not right absorption. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It is through attainment that we can find out for certain if there > are four fruits or four paths. All one need do is practice > Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Mahasatipatthana is not the practice of absorption. All > Buddhists know this sutta and its essence. > > Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right > concentration. It is not right absorption. This shows persistent > invasion into right dhamma trying to twist into wrong way. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..and one will find out whether there are four fruits to the practice > or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right > absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these > separate fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a > consequence of the dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here fruits do not clear. But satipatthana is not the practice > of absorption. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of > concentration (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here gravely wrong. Satipatthana is not the practice of > concentration. And satipatthana does not lead to mindfulness. Instaed > mindfulness leads to satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..which leads to absorption (samadhi) > > which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, > > mindfulness (sati), > ecstasy (jhana), > insight (vipassana), and > knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane abilities (lokuttara > balani). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Satipatthana Sutta does not say this. Nor Samadhi Sutta say > this. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 31269 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > Here we go again Sukin: :-) Sorry to drag you into the merry-go-round. Were I not afraid of wrong view seeping into the practice, I would be ardently practicing breath meditation to overcome my scatterbrain. In any case, the root cause being kilesas and only vippasana can eradicate this, I guess I need to be patient, at least. ;-) > k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. There is no > rules. The rules are simple, if panna is strong enough, you will > stop. Sukin: You are right!! The panna *is* extremely weak! Which is why I imagined a situation (`continue to dig mindfully'), to justify my position. This is silly. I talk about the difference between kusala and akusala and I don't even know if whether this moment is akusala or not! And I take `thinking about realities', as being so authoritative. But I guess all this is conditioned, and it just reflects the limited understanding, which of course I can't do anything about. Except to conclude, perhaps in agreement with you, that I need to keep going back to the basics and listen more and more. > k: If not, we will have to reflect why do we not stop. Then this > will condition panna. Sukin: Yes, it would be an instance of panna to recognize this even, but why must it necessarily condition reflection? Is that a rule? And if there was reflection, wouldn't this be determined by the accumulated panna? I could be reflecting and come up with all the wrong answers, no? Or I could be `thinking', and mistake this thinking for understanding? Yesterday, I wasn't feeling well, and I went to the discussions. I had a few questions and was very keen (read chanda) to understand, but somehow I had great difficulty grasping and reflecting on anything. Conditions, I think. > k: If we continue doing it and hoping sati will grow - that is a fallacy. Sukin: Yes, if one is `hoping', then it is quite unlikely that it will happen, but is anyone talking about hope? Isn't it all about the complexity of conditions and hence impossibility to know what will be conditioned to arise, when? > k:If we know there is no way we can stop it > due to our panna is weak, we leave it as it is but at the meantime we > will reflect on its drawback. Then in such a way then panna will > grow. Sukin: Yes, if there are conditions, anything can happen. > k: Panna will not grow if we think this is condition and I cannot > make any rules because all are conditions and let it be. Good Luck. Sukin: Is `luck' conditioned? ;-) If panna "knows" (not just thinks), that "this is condition and I cannot make any rules because all are conditions", then panna *is* being accumulated. And the statement "let it be" can be with or without panna. > k: No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect > and consider dhamma more. Sukin: But doesn't this sound like a rule? ;-) > k: if you dont reflect it everyday, do you think wisdom will come > out from thin air ;-). If you look at the suttas, it is always > ponder and a few times memorise. Why because when we ponder, we > condition panna. Dont bank on panna to save your ass if you dont > ponder it or remind yourself. Sukin: To read, ponder and memorise, isn't this also conditioned? And to do this, did panna come out of thin air? ;-) > S: Is he making excuses, or are there simply not the right > conditions for restraint? But what if he did have deep insight while > indulging himself? > > K: Ya sure, Buddha will have encourage us to drink more. Sukin: Huh! Why does this follow? > k: That is very rare - how many have you seen in the text (the most famous > Anguilima). Or the text is talking about this person, ardently > practise and attain deathless. Sukin: It is not about how rare or common, in fact it is not about anyone at all. But about understanding conditions. > S: I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. > > K: You are very wrong, it is not just wrong view that hinder > satipatthana. It is akusala that hinder satipatthana. Wrong view is > only when we think there is am I that is practising the path? Sukin: Let me qualify my statement a bit. Firstly, I think we both are approaching the idea of hindrance from different perspective. You are probably talking about being `willfully' indulgent in akusala; that this goes against the very idea of developing wholesome states. I agree with this. But I am talking about `being' in situations, by conditions (strong habits, etc), that no state of mind which arises, cannot be known to a person with panna of the appropriate level. This means that it is only the lack of understanding of what satipatthana is and about conditionality, which can hinder any arising of panna. For someone who does not accept the Buddha's teachings, no matter how much sila he has, he can never develop panna of the vippasana kind. Now you may say, that for a person who has weak panna, how such a person can expect to have satipatthana arise in any given situation? True! But I don't think it is a question of `avoiding situations' and deciding as a consequent, to reflect more on dhamma or whatever. I think it still must be about Right View. If one does not understand that everything is conditioned and has even a slight idea of being able to control situations, this can be a hindrance. On the other hand if one accepts that every dhamma can be known (even if only a handful will ever be known), then there is no place and no time where sati and panna cannot arise, provided of course, that he is not willfully negligent with any wrong idea about consequence. If he accepts the fact that akusala leads to akusala results and kusala leads to kusala results, then this itself can be a condition for less and less tendency to the former and a bending toward the latter. He must know at the same time about how at this very moment, ignorance and wrong view can lead us to all sorts of wrong ideas about kusala actions, and lobha can attach to the results which condition further ignorance and wrong view. There are many, many other aspects of dhamma to consider which would lead one along the correct path, and there are many more which lead us in other directions. And I still maintain, that it all hinges upon Right View/Wrong View. Got to go, my kids are getting impatient. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 31270 From: Norman Joseph Smith Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, Hi Christine and all Hope you are well and happy. > I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. sad to hear. > I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, happy to hear. > but how > is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? good question, I think. > metta and peace, > Christine and to you, pls see response below > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > § 2.12. > When dwelling on views > as "supreme," > a person makes them > the utmost thing > in the world, > &, from that, calls > all others inferior > and so he's not free > from disputes. This links to the another teaching: (Extract from my book:) "If a person has a conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bhaaradvaaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth, but it is not yet an awakening to the truth" M 95 : M ii 171 I understand this to mean, one needs to watch [be mindful/aware of] one's speech and avoid absolute statements, such as, "I am, he is, it is..." but rather express accurately each of one's view/conviction/belief with a qualifying statement such as "I think... I believe... It seems to me..." etc. There are so many variants that we use in everyday speech, but not very often because we are talking our view as truth, or if we know about the teaching we give lame excuses not to practice it, such as "everything I say is only my view, so I don't need to do that [practice the Buddha is giving]". Listening to my speech has helped me avoid many arguments, yet be able to express my views clearly. It has also enabled me to listen to others express their views and know when they are not doing so. In the latter case I can then know that it is probably not a good time to discuss. They are not in the right headspace, mindfulness of speech and non-clinging to views is not well developed. When one just sees one's views as such, one can discuss them and would be willing to change them. Not so if one sees one's views as the truth. This forming of views and clinging to them as truth is based in the view about oneself, identity view, "I am [not]...". If one does this, one will naturally extend it to others. Therefore below there is mention of "I am inferior, equal, superior". The Buddha taught not to think like this, but just to see the five clinging components as they are, e.g. "this is anger" rather than "I am angry" [sankhaara-upaadaana-khandha]. "I believe this" rather than "this is the truth" [sankhaara-upaadaana-khandha]. "I do these practices" rather than "I am a Buddhist" [sannyyaa-upaadaana- khandha]. One of the problems in communication with the last one is, the person spoken to may have the strangest ideas [stereotypes] of what a Buddhist is. :-) > When he sees his advantage > in what's seen, heard, sensed, > or in precepts & practices, > seizing it there > he sees all else > as inferior. > That, too, say the skilled, > is a binding knot: that > in dependence on which > you regard another > as inferior. > So a monk shouldn't be dependent > on what's seen, heard, or sensed, > or on precepts & practices; > nor should he conjure a view in the world > in connection with knowledge > or precepts & practices; > shouldn't take himself > to be "equal"; > shouldn't think himself > inferior or superlative. > > > [Sn IV.5] > > > § 2.13. > Whoever construes > 'equal,' > 'superior,' or > 'inferior,' > by that he'd dispute; > whereas to one unaffected > by these three, > 'equal,' > 'superior,' > do not occur. > Of what would the brahman say 'true' > or 'false,' > disputing with whom: > he in whom 'equal,' 'unequal' are not. > > Having abandoned home, > living free from society, > the sage > in villages > creates no intimacies. > Rid of sensual passions, free > from yearning, > he wouldn't engage with people > in quarrelsome debate. > > Those things > aloof from which > he should go about in the world: > the great one > wouldn't take them up > & argue for them. > > As the prickly lotus > is unsmeared by water & mud, > so the sage, > an exponent of peace, > without greed, > is unsmeared by sensuality & > the world. > > An attainer-of-wisdom isn't measured > made proud > by views or > by what is thought, > for he isn't affected by them. > He wouldn't be led > by action, learning; > doesn't reach a conclusion > in any entrenchments. > > For one dispassionate toward perception > there are no ties; > for one released by discernment, > no > delusions. > Those who grasp at perceptions & views > go about butting their heads > in the world. [Sn IV.9] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31271 From: Norman Joseph Smith Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Hi again I realise I didn't close off in my last post. Peace and good health Jou 31272 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:46pm Subject: BB1 - intro Dear Friends, As I mentioned, I received a reply from Bhikkhu Bodhi yesterday in response to a note I’d sent a couple of days earlier, offering some assistance. At the same time I forwarded a Qu from RobM and a couple of links to recent posts, including the reference in the notes that Larry has raised a couple of times concerning space (akasa) not being a paramattha dhamma. On these dhamma points, I’ll put the responses in separate posts for clarity or further discussion. If anyone has any comments or questions they’d particularly like to be addressed to him, please just post them on list as usual with a comment to this effect and I’m happy to make sure they are brought to his attention. Someone just mentioned to me off-list that they wished to discuss some translation comments with him. Again, I’ve been asked not to pass on his direct contact details, so please just share with us all and I’ll make sure he sees these too, without his feeling under any obligation to respond. As he has serious health concerns (in spite of some symptomatic relief from recent medication prescribed by Michigan Headpain Institute at Ann Arbor), and as he’s extremely busy with his translation and other work, I usually try to wait for an appropriate time and when there are several points to raise together. So please be patient for any response. Briefly, on the question of the Anguattara Nikaya translation, he mentioned that he’s recently been very busy, but has made ‘substantial progress’ on a sutta anthology for Wisdom Publications, based on the four Nikayas. He just needs to revise these and write his own commentary to ‘thread the selections together’. After this, he hopes to resume work on the Anguttara Nikaya. Metta, Sarah ===== 31273 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:55pm Subject: BB2 - RobM -Kamma Dear RobM & All, I sent the following to B.Bodhi: >RobM: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26057 ..... Rob Moult also wrote this (off-list) to me: >Hi Sarah/Jon I would be interested in B.Bodhi’s view on kamma produced if all of the conditions for kamma-patha are not fulfilled. Specifically, I understand that completed kamma (kamma-patha) has enough power to condition rebirth linking, but is kamma-patha a requirement for any kamma to be created? Metta RobM :-)< *********< ***** B.Bodhi's response: BB: >In my understanding, according to the Abhidhamma commentaries, if one produces all the conditions for a kamma-patha but the intended action is not fulfilled, one will still generate kamma, but the kamma will not be as powerful as the corresponding kamma-patha of the same type. I believe the Abhidhamma commentaries hold that the kamma will not be capable of generating a rebirth-linking of the type that the corresponding kamma-patha would generate. This seems intuitively correct, but I am not certain that it could not generate rebirth-linking at all. To give an example, if someone, on repeated occasions, attempts to commit murder, but on each occasion succeeds only in mutilating his victims, it is clear that he could not generate the type of rebirth-linking that an act of murder would generate. But as his consciousness has been infected by acts of volition intending to kill others, it would seem to me that these intentions to kill, though they accomplish only the wounding of their victims, would still constitute powerful enough unwholesome kamma to be capable of producing an unfortunate rebirth. Because these intentions do come to expression in bodily action, they would be much more powerful than mental states of byapada (ill will), the wish for the harm of others, which constitutes the ninth akusala kamma-patha, a purely mental type. One could extend this example from intended acts of murder that fail to accomplish their aim to other intended akusala kamma-pathas that fail: the prospective thief who repeatedly fails to pull off his theft, the would-be adulterer who fails to seduce the wives of others; the slanderer who fails to divide close friends, etc. So I would hesitate to take the kamma-pathas in too rigid a sense as being the only types of action that can generate rebirth. I would see them, rather, simply as the principal types of unwholesome actions. In this respect, my understanding may differ from the Abhidhamma commentaries (I'm not sure of this), but I think it accords well with the Suttanta usage of the concept.< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 31274 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:58pm Subject: BB3 - Luminosity Dear Nina, I gave B.Bodhi the link to this post of yours in the continuing luminosity saga: >Nina's post on luminosity: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26048 ***** B.Bodhis's response: >But I regard the Abhidhamma Pitaka as being later than the four Nikayas and the core texts of the Khuddaka Nikaya (Dhpada, Sutta-nipata, most of Thera-therigatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, etc.), and the Abhidhamma commentaries as being "considerably later," so I would still stand by my statement.< ********* Metta, Sarah ====== 31275 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:04pm Subject: BB4 - Space Dear Larry & All, Sarah wrote: >While I’m writing, we’re also discussing space (akasa rupa) in detail and questioning a comment in CMA: (links to some recent posts on space): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31140 ..... BB: >I'm not at all sure. This requires further investigation. I must have had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary). I'll have to check up on this.< .... Sarah: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31123 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31122 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31121 .... BB:>Of course, any further comments you care to make would be greatly appreciated. In Karunadasa’s article on Time and Space, I also believe there may be errors in his treatment on space in this regard. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi< ..... Metta, Sarah ====== 31276 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Sarah, I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said otherwise in a previous email. Larry --------------------- BB: "...I must have had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space 31277 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin > Sukin: :-) Sorry to drag you into the merry-go-round. k: Hey Sukin, it always an honour to talk to you, just that you have to forgive this barking terrier and could be quite cynical at times. Come to think about this barking terrier, it is full of conceit ;-). > Sukin: Yes, if one is `hoping', then it is quite unlikely that it > will happen, but is anyone talking about hope? Isn't it all about > the complexity of conditions and hence impossibility to know what > will be conditioned to arise, when? k: the issue is not when, is Today, the effort must be made, for tomorrow death may come, who knows? No bargain with Motarlity, can keep him and his hordes away. Two beautiful sentence that I got from Sutta on A Single Excellent Night (MN 131). Definitely we are talking exertion of conditions and not purposedly go and be holy. When the danger of akusala is know, exertion will naturally arise. > Sukin: Yes, if there are conditions, anything can happen. k: Sukin, anything can happen is a fallacy. Because we know the equations that kusala conditions kusala, likewise vice versa. Dont leave satipatthana to mere jackpot. > > k: No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect > > and consider dhamma more. > Sukin: But doesn't this sound like a rule? ;-) k: That is not a rule, that is something Buddha tell us to do ;-) > Sukin: To read, ponder and memorise, isn't this also conditioned? > And to do this, did panna come out of thin air? ;-) k: Yes all are conditioned but why leave all to chance ;-). If you dont even ponder dhamma or reflect them, and you expect that panna will grow. Fat hope! > Sukin: It is not about how rare or common, in fact it is not about > anyone at all. But about understanding conditions. k: Understanding conditions does not imply don't do anything. It implies there is no way a self can do to perceive a not-self. The only way is to consider dhamma, reflect, ponder etc. Then when panna knows the danger of aksuala, effort will arise naturally. > If one does not understand that everything is conditioned and has > even a slight idea of being able to control situations, this can be > a hindrance. On the other hand if one accepts that every dhamma can > be known (even if only a handful will ever be known), then there is > no place and no time where sati and panna cannot arise, provided of > course, that he is not willfully negligent with any wrong idea > about consequence. If he accepts the fact that akusala leads to akusala results and kusala leads to kusala results, then this itself can be a condition for less and less tendency to the former and a bending toward the latter. He must know at the same time about how at this very moment, ignorance and wrong view can lead us to all sorts of wrong ideas about kusala actions, and lobha can attach to the > results which condition further ignorance and wrong view. There are > many, many other aspects of dhamma to consider which would lead one > along the correct path, and there are many more which lead us in > other directions. And I still maintain, that it all hinges upon > Right View/Wrong View. k: To sum it all up. Right Understanding (sounds fimiliar ;-) ). Because right understanding conditions right effort etc. There are I think different level of right understanding and that is a very intelligent answer to all dhamma questions. Ken O 31278 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said > otherwise in a previous email. > > Larry > --------------------- > BB: "...I must have > had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata > Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." .... S: It says on the title page that the "introduction and explanatory guide' are by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. I'm sure B.Bodhi was responsible for the final editing and so on, but in his preface before the intro, he explains why he relied a lot on the assistance of Ven Rewata Dhamma. .... > ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space .... S: Oh well, we should be grateful for these 'idiosyncratic' fusses as they prompt us all to consider in greater depth;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31279 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:32pm Subject: Re: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Hello Jou, Thanks for your reply - it contains many good reminders. I wish I had read the reminders earlier today - it may have stopped me getting involved in a pointless exchange of views elsewhere. :-) Nice to see you here. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph Smith" 31280 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard k: It seems that we both have been discussing since ancient times and now we are still discussing it ;-). By the way, I enjoy discussing it with you, because each discussion meant a better understanding of the dhamma. I always very positive about it because it always a gain to me. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Excuse me, but I didn't see a characterization there of what > is to be considered "practising Buddhism." Doret merely said he does way better when his day begins with meditation. > ------------------------------------------- k: Meditation is a not a magic portion or so call energy drink. If we think it is as such, there will be a dependency. On one hand we want to be clingless and signless, then on the other hand, we seems to be drawn to a dependency. I never say one should not practise meditation, I am saying it is wrong when it becomes a dependecy. Practising Buddhism is about now and here. Meditation is every moment if we know it. Because in each moment, understand dhammas as not-self, is consider meditation as the mind must be focus or draw attention onto the object in order to understand not-self. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Did Doret suggest that? Also, that's the Buddha you are > talking about, right? Not Joe Worldling. This is all a red herring, Ken. The Buddha repeatedly encouraged meditation, and Doret has said nothing more than that his meditating serves him well, particularly making an ongoing mindfulness practice more effective for him. What, other than a distaste for meditating, would prompt a > questioning of this? > ------------------------------------------ k: I dont think you will see Buddha talking about practise must be only in meditation to gain enlightement. Then he will not be preach satipatthana, he will not be preaching restraining the six senses. I have no distaste for meditation, I see there is a lot of misunderstanding in meditation. It is a fallacy that just sitting and focusing a simple object, one expect to gain enlightement. Without insight, no enlightment (see Effacement MN 8). It is Dependent Origination that Buddha realise during his enlightment and not meditation - See SN 12. 10 - Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage. So meditation must be known it is a condition not to gain anything, just to understand condition as it comes and goes. Whatever feeling that arise especially the sense of calmness or rapture in meditation must be known as anatta, anicca and dukkha. One must see each conditions (be it kusala or aksuala) the arisen of aggregates is arise by ignorance, by kamma, by craving, by nutriment (for materiality), by contact (for feelings, perception and mental fabrications), by fabrications (for consciouness) likewise the cease of aggregates is the ceasing of ingorance etc.. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What if one thinks there is a need to discuss, or evaluate, > or write letters on e-mail lists, or reply to same, or criticize the form of someone's practice? What if one thinks there is a need to do anything? Isn't that also "falling into the trap of self?" We're all caught in that trap. Thus it would seem that we dare not act in any way at any time! > ---------------------------------------------------- k: Nope it depends what is your starting premises. I have dicuss this with you before. Dont add charcoal to a burning barbecue pit to stop the fire. We let it extinguishes on its own. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > These are mere words, Ken. I agree with them, but that is > just belief. The mind must be trained until it *knows*, and doesn't just believe. As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta commences with that. Quite true, Ken. But, on the street, if ever someone mindlessly or intentionally slams hard into you, especially if s/he does so with evident purposeful enjoyment, does anger not flare? Right there is the sense of self asserting itself, Ken. Believing that there is no self is just opinion. Coming to that belief, while a critical beginning, is no substitute for weakening the sense of self and its effect. The sense of self will be with us for aeons, and it's presence (not Doret's "presence" ;-) should not be taken as a justification for doing nothing. > ---------------------------------------------------- k: Sorry Howard, I said it from real experience because I accidentally knock onto my wife the other day. The realisation it is not me but body consciouness - a sense of detachment rise. The realisation the pain is just not me or I, it is body consciouness that experience the pain, detachment arise. These characteristic can be known right here and now. This is what I advocate, experiencing the moment. Because with right understanding, everything we do afterthat, will be beneficial. With right undestanding, go ahead meditate all you like ;-). k: Satipatthana is a lot of people favourite. I suggest you should look at MN 4 Bhayabherava Sutta - the meaning of a going to a forest. So there was concentration even before one into a forest. What kind of activities produce concentraton, the ten wholesome precepts, the understanding of the five hindrances etc. Then again in MN 17, Jungle Thickets. k: Again walking and drinking with full awareness, awareness of what, awareness "there is the body" - it meant awareness of not-self, anicca of the body and not otherwise. Even a baby will learn how to walk, will be in full awarness of his first step, full awareness is not about knowing the walking or eating, it is about knowing that "there is the body" k: You said doing nothing, then you did not see the discussion I have with Sukin. I advocate listening, reading and considering of dhamma, because only when right understanding arise to see the danger of akusala, then effort will arise. I think I have also discuss with you about convictions also and how it condition effort. And dont see listening is not doing anything, many people have gone forth by just listening or a number of them take refuge (also from many different sect) by just listening. The power of just paying attention to listen to dhamma is unthinkable ;-). Ken O 31281 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Hi Htoo and Swee Boon I got this link from RobK regarding your questions, it was written by Jon a while ago http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3905.html Hope this help Ken O 31282 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:07am Subject: 'Aware and able by nature' Nina The phrase 'aware and able by nature' in the Pansadhovaka Sutta translation quoted by Swee Boon caught my eye because it looks so much like the Thai expression 'phuu mii pokati charoen satipatthaan' that we have heard so often, and I have always wondered if it was a translation of something from the texts. The Pali is apparently 'sacetaso bhikkhu dabbajaatiko'. The PTS translation has 'thoughtful, able monk', and quotes the commentary as glossing 'dabba-jaatiko' as 'pa.n.dita-jaatiko' (see A III, 10, 100 at p.231 of GS vol I 'Gold-refiner'). I guess the 'by nature' part comes from 'jaatiko'? (There is also a x-ref to M.i, 114, but I couldn't see anything likely there.) Anyway, I think it must be a reference to a person in whom awareness is well-established. Only then could the awareness be said to occur 'by nature'. Jon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Howard, ... > "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness... 31283 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:37am Subject: Re: BB2 - RobM -Kamma Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear RobM & All, > > I sent the following to B.Bodhi: > > >RobM: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26057 > ..... > Rob Moult also wrote this (off-list) to me: > > >Hi Sarah/Jon > > I would be interested in B.Bodhi's view on kamma > produced if all of the conditions for kamma-patha are > not fulfilled. Specifically, I understand that > completed kamma (kamma-patha) has enough power to > condition rebirth linking, but is kamma-patha a > requirement for any kamma to be created? > > Metta > RobM :-)< > *********< > ***** > B.Bodhi's response: > > BB: >In my understanding, according to the Abhidhamma commentaries, if one > produces all the conditions for a kamma-patha but the intended action is > not fulfilled, one will still generate kamma, but the kamma will not be as > powerful as the corresponding kamma-patha of the same type. Thanks a million. This and BB's subsequent comments confirm my understanding and, as expected, BB shed light on some areas that I had not considered. Metta, Rob M :-) 31284 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spinning out Pannati Nina, Phil and All I agree with Nina about the value of 'reruns' from the archives. Thanks again, Phil. In case anyone was wondering, the original reference to that wonderful expression 'spinning out pannatti' came from (formerly active) member Bruce some 3+ years ago, in a thread entitled (guess what): "sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas". This is what he said: "but why does it *feel* like i'm spinning out so much more panatti when i'm sitting in front of the computer than when i'm sitting attempting samatha bhavana??" As I tried to indicate in my reply at the time, who says pannatti are the problem? Even the arahant thinks and communicates using pannatti. There will never be a time when that's not going on! Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Philip, > I enjoy these reminders in old posts you send now and then and also > your > added remarks. I need such reminders about spinning out concepts. > Appreciating this, thank you. ... 31285 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:12am Subject: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.14-15 Dear Group, These two sutta excerpts are about the fetters of conceit, restlessness, and anxiety. I wonder what Sariputta is experiencing if he is not experiencing sorrow when he says "Still, I would have this thought ..." Why is conceit involved in sorrow? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- § 2.14. Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'There is nothing in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.'" When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher would there arise within you no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair?" "Even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, my friend, there would arise within me no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings.'" "Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair." [SN XXI.2] § 2.15. Then Ven. Anuruddha went to where Ven. Sariputta was staying and, on arrival, greeted him courteously. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta: By means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human, I see the thousand-fold cosmos. My persistence is aroused & unsluggish. My mindfulness is established & unshaken. My body is calm & unaroused. My mind is concentrated into singleness. And yet my mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Sariputta: My friend, when the thought occurs to you, 'By means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human, I see the thousand- fold cosmos,' that is related to your conceit. When the thought occurs to you, 'My persistence is aroused & unsluggish. My mindfulness is established & unshaken. My body is calm & unperturbed. My mind is concentrated into singleness,' that is related to your restlessness. When the thought occurs to you, 'And yet my mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance,' that is related to your anxiety. It would be well if -- abandoning these three qualities, not attending to these three qualities -- you directed your mind to the Deathless property.' So after that, Ven. Anuruddha -- abandoning those three qualities, not attending to those three qualities -- directed his mind to the Deathless property. Dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus Ven. Anuruddha became another one of the Arahants. [AN III.128] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31286 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard (Ken and Doret), You wrote to Ken O: ---------------------------- > As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta commences with that. > ---------------------------- I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal meditation: "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken. From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non- opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryBody.htm#Breathing Kind regards, Ken H 31287 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not so short hello, from Jou Ex: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Hi Jou, S: Thank you very much for posting your 'not so short hello' which I found most interesting;-). I’m sure you’ll have a lot to contribute here and hope you find other posts useful as well. --- "Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith" wrote: > In 1986, >I got involved with Buddhism. Towards the end of that year I > ordained as a Theravaadin monk, which I continued for six years till > March 1993. Three of those six years were in intensive Vipassanaa > meditation in South East Asia. Since then I have been living as a layman > in Australia. I have nearly finished a Bachelor of Arts degree at the > University of Queensland in which I majored in Buddhism and Chinese. In > my Buddhist major I studied Paali, Sanskrit and Buddhist Chinese. .... S: As you’re probably aware, Queensland is well represented here;-). Were you ordained in Thailand? Do you live in Brisbane? .... <....> > I try to apply the 4 Great Authorities and the Kalaama Sutta in my study > and practice. Since all conditioned things are impermanent, I accept > that even in the 4 Nikaaya and Vinaya there will be texts that are not > [according to] the Buddha's teaching. The challenge is to identify what > would be corruptions, this means I have to be willing to question my > assumptions and cherished [clung to] interpretations of the Buddha's > teaching. .... S: Another way to look at it might be to consider carefully those aspects which appear to be corruptions, to cross-check, consider, read the commentaries and to again question one’s ‘assumptions and cherished interpretations’ in this regard too. ... <...> > The Sutta and Vinaya texts are what I focus on, not the Abhidhamma and > the commentaries. That is because I wish to focus on that which is > generally not doubted to be the Word of the Buddha, for it is his > teaching I am interested in. I look for those who want to focus on his > teaching, not other's understandings or interpretations of it. From the > home page I understand that this group is interested in "the Buddha's > teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original > record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further > elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition". So I am not > sure if this group is for me. Please let me know. .... S: I think that anyone can focus on any aspect of the Tipitaka or Pali commentaries here that they like. You will find yourself in good company and I’m sure those of us who have full confidence and respect for the Abhidhamma and commentaries are in a minority here. On the other hand, we just ask everyone to respect the homepage description and details in the guidelines on this, regardless of whether they agree with them or not;-). After all, it’s rare to find a space where they can be carefully considered in depth as we do here, such as in the Visuddhimagga thread which you’ll probably want to skip. There have been many, many discussions here on the authenticity of the Abhidhamma and commentaries as being included in Buddha-vacana. You may (or may not;-)) like to look at a few selected posts from the archives(by the mods) under the following subjects in the archives one rainy Qld day: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts - Abhidhamma -origins - Commentaries - Buddha-vacana - Dhamma-Vinaya - Vinaya - introduction (Bahiranidana) .... > I only read the emails via the web when I have some spare time. So I ask > people to CC me personally when replying to a post of mine, so I know to > come back to the group to reply. .... S: I’ve been asked to do this for a few people, but I’m afraid I always forget, so pls keep an eye on the list as well. One suggestion I give people who only look occasionally, is to key in a name or other word in the back-up posts on escribe which has a good search function. (But, I think ‘Jou’ is too short for this). http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ .... > Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from .... S: Many thanks for all the other detail reluctantly snipped (we’re tough on trimming too;-)) and for the goodwill. I look forward to your contributions. Best wishes for your book too. Metta, Sarah p.s I was glad to see your contribution to Christine’s thread as well. ====== 31288 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Nina and Howard Nina, I was interested to read in the passage quoted from Ledi Sayadaw the terms paccaya-ghatanaa (synchrony of relations), sa-paccayaa (related to causes), and paticcasamupannaa (arising from a conjuncture of circumstances), all of which are new to me. Are these from the Tipitaka or commentaries, do you know? Howard, I am puzzled by your statement that 'All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes', and would like to hear more about what it means exactly, where it comes from, and how it relates to the teaching on dependent arising. The typical formulation of the links of DA is in the form 'Dependent on A, B comes to be', where A and B are phenomena/dhammas of one kind or another. What is not stated expressly in the formulation as contained in the suttas is the nature of the 'dependency' in question. As we know, a dependency can take many forms. So to be meaningful, the formulation of the links needs to be understood as something like this: - Dependent on A as condition by way of X, B comes to be, or - A conditions B by way of X condition, where 'X' is the nature of the relationship of dependency between the 2 phenomena/dhammas. Now to say that A and B are conditions and not dhammas doesn't seem to make sense in this context. Looking forward to your further comments. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > You wrote: > H: Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute > distinction > > is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely > conditions, and > > there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from > attributes. > N: Conditions. Good reminder. Again, I can say about myself: I am > like a > parrot, repeating texts without applying them in my life. > Personally many details help me to understand at least > theoretically the > three characteristics. I am delighted with all details given in the > Visuddhimagga, for examples about rupas we study now. (I do not > expect > others to be equally delighted:-)) Rob K likes to quote texts about > the need > of details for deluded people. The Buddha taught more details to > the extent > people were more deluded. ... 31289 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 13-03-2004 01:08 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What sort of reality is a rupa group? If it is a paramattha dhamma, what > is its distinguishing characteristic (sabhava)? N: A group *consists* of paramattha dhammas. Learning more details about groups helps us to have a deeper understanding of the conditions for the rupas and of the intricate way these conditions operate. We are reminded that these rupas do not belong to us. This is a good foundation for satipatthana. After all we do not study these matters out of an academic interest. When there is awareness of realities we do not have to think of groups. L: Are cetasikas classified as groups? N: Yes. The universals arising with each citta, the particulars, arising with many but not with all, the sobhana cetasikas, the akusala cetasikas, These are the main classifications, but there are more. L: Is it correct that space and the lightness triad characterize only groups, not individual rupas such as hardness or visible data? N: Space surrounds each group, delimitating them. It is real. The lightness triad pertains to some groups, not to those originated by kamma. Although they are not concrete matter, but rupas of changability, they are still reckoned as arising in such or such group. As to hardness or visible data these always arise in groups, in each group. Thus also in the groups with the lightness triad originated by citta, temperature and nutirtion. The word characterize may create confusion. L: Below is a list of rupa groups. Are there more? N: When we classify by way of octads, nonads, etc. we have to mention by which of the four factors they are originated. I wll not give a complete list, but I can add a few details from the Thai . L: 8 inseparables: earth, wind, fire, air, color, smell, taste, nutritive > essence. N: Originated from citta, temperature or nutrition. L: 8 + life faculty N: nonad. By kamma. Or, 8 + sound, sound nonad. See below, of the body or outside rupa. L: 8 + bodily intimation N: By citta L: 8 + life + eye base, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or female > faculty, or male faculty, or heart base N: by kamma. L: 8 + vocal intimation + sound N: by citta. L: 8 + lightness triad (lightness, malleability, wieldiness) N: by citta, temperature or nutrition. These are necessary for the postures and normal movement of the body. Those originated from all three support one another, they need each other. L: 8 + lightness triad + bodily intimation N: by citta. L: 8 + lightness triad + vocal intimation + sound N: by citta Now a few details from Dhamma Issues: < The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. This group of rúpas originate from the citta which conditions the assuming of different postures and the natural movement of the body, without the intention to convey a specific meaning. The dodecad of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, and lightness, a group of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability, and bodily intimation. This group of rúpas originates from citta which wants to convey a meaning by way of bodily motion that is special, capable of expressing that meaning. 6. The tridecad of speech intimation, vacíviññatti, sound and lightness, a group of thirteen rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, sound and speech intimation. This group of rúpas originates from the citta which intends to cause the arising of a specific sound which is dependent on the vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability. That sound can arise on the sound-base when one intends to produce a special sound, such as in the case of singing or speaking. The sound nonad, a group of nine rúpas: the eight inseparable rúpas and sound. This is sound which does not originate from citta. It can arise with rúpas which are dead matter and with rúpas of the body. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. These three rúpas can be the condition for bodily movement when citta intends to cause such movement [7]. The dodecad of sound and lightness, a group consisting of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas and sound. These rúpas are produced by temperature when sound arises together with these vikåra rúpas [8] . There are two groups of rupas originating from nutrition: 1. The pure octad, consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas. 2. The undecad with lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas. Apart from the factors of citta and temperature, the three vikåra rúpas can originate also from the factor of nutrition. If there are only vikåra rúpas originating from temperature but nutrition is lacking, the vikåra rúpas do not have enough strength to condition supple and fast movement of the body. Footnotes 7. Even if citta intends to produce rúpa in order to move the limbs, it cannot do so if there are not also vikåra rúpas conditioned by the right temperature. The three factors of citta, temperature and nutrition each produce groups of rúpa that include the vikåra rúpas. These three groups support one another. See ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Appendix to Rúpa, by Acharn Suijn. 8. When there is sound by snapping the fingers or applauding, vikåra rúpas arise together with sound. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Appendix to Rúpa.> N: Remarks: we see the significance of the lightness triad for speech intimation when a special sound is produced, such as singing. We also see how important the three factors originating the triad are, how they support each other. When we are without food or drink for a long time it is very hard to have articulate speech. I could prove this when traveling in India. We can verify all these facts as taught in the Abhidhamma. They pertain to daily life. Nina. 31290 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning .just dhammas Dear Icaro, op 13-03-2004 13:23 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > >> k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: Not necessarily. By the way, Akusala Dhammas are Dhammas - and > here lies the pañña: separating the subtile from the coarse matters. > Cf. the initial chapter of Dhammasangani "Mattika". N: Thanks for the reminder. We cannot be reminded enough that our life is just: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyaakata (indeterminate) dhamma. In Bgk we were reminded by A. Sujin all the time: everything is dhamma. Here we are with lobha, dosa and moha, we are worried about the sickness of others, we have many problems in life regarding our work or our relationship with others. We are spinning out stories and on account of these stories moments of happiness and misery alternate. When it is time to depart from this life all these stories will be forgotten. Where is "our important personality"? There are only dhammas just lasting for a moment and then gone. We ourselves and others are only dhammas. Nina. 31291 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi, Larry and Sarah - In a message dated 3/14/04 12:19:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said > otherwise in a previous email. > > Larry > --------------------- > BB: "...I must have > had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata > Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." > > ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space > ============================ Heh, heh, heh! Did you utter the sacred name, Larry? ;-)) I think that there are actual relations among rupic phenomena/events, among which are so-called spatial relations. We do not create our perceptions of "adjacent", "near", "far", "in front of", "surrounding", "enclosing" etc out of whole cloth. However, seeing these as more than just relations, and reifying - creating the notion of a thing called "space", is just one more instance of our tendency towards defiled conceptualization. I think there are temporal relations as well, but no thing that is "time". Temporal relations, however, are more problematical than spatial ones, because one normally wants related things to coexist, but that is exactly what is *not* the case when one event precedes another! So I see "time" as a shakier notion than that of "space". As I consider the matter, I think that to make sense of precedence and succession, the events related need to involve an observed phenomenon (i.e., the "present event") and the memory of a phenomenon (i.e., the "past event") or perhaps a thought of a projected event (i.e., the "future event"). The cognizing of temporal relations seems to involve greater conceptual involvement, greater indirection, than the cognizing of spatial relations. In that sense, "space" is more real than "time", at least as we usually think of time. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31292 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 3/14/04 1:55:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: >Hi Sarah, > > > >I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said > >otherwise in a previous email. > > > >Larry > >--------------------- > >BB: "...I must have > >had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata > >Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." > .... > S: It says on the title page that the "introduction and explanatory guide' > are by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. I'm sure B.Bodhi was responsible > for the final editing and so on, but in his preface before the intro, he > explains why he relied a lot on the assistance of Ven Rewata Dhamma. > .... > >ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space > .... > S: Oh well, we should be grateful for these 'idiosyncratic' fusses as they > prompt us all to consider in greater depth;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah =============================== Please see my reply to Larry's last post on this thread. It is yet another adventure in Idiosyncratism (my new religion)! ;-)) With metta Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31293 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/14/04 2:51:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > k: It seems that we both have been discussing since ancient times and > now we are still discussing it ;-). By the way, I enjoy discussing > it with you, because each discussion meant a better understanding of > the dhamma. I always very positive about it because it always a gain > to me. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: This is a very kind and welcoming response, Ken. Thank you! And, BTW, I concur. :-) ------------------------------------------------ > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Excuse me, but I didn't see a characterization there of what > >is to be considered "practising Buddhism." Doret merely said he > does way better when his day begins with meditation. > >------------------------------------------- > > k: Meditation is a not a magic portion or so call energy drink. If > we think it is as such, there will be a dependency. On one hand we > want to be clingless and signless, then on the other hand, we seems > to be drawn to a dependency. I never say one should not practise > meditation, I am saying it is wrong when it becomes a dependecy. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a point well taken! Guarding the senses should apply to all matters, including our inclinations with regard to aspects of Dhamma practice. --------------------------------------------------- > Practising Buddhism is about now and here. Meditation is every > moment if we know it. Because in each moment, understand dhammas as > not-self, is consider meditation as the mind must be focus or draw > attention onto the object in order to understand not-self. > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Did Doret suggest that? Also, that's the Buddha you are > >talking about, right? Not Joe Worldling. This is all a red > herring, Ken. The Buddha repeatedly encouraged meditation, and Doret > has said nothing more than that his meditating serves him well, > particularly making an ongoing mindfulness practice more effective > for him. What, other than a distaste for meditating, would prompt a > >questioning of this? > >------------------------------------------ > > k: I dont think you will see Buddha talking about practise must be > only in meditation to gain enlightement. Then he will not be preach> > satipatthana, he will not be preaching restraining the six senses. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with this, though I include ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times to be a part of meditation practice. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31294 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/14/04 5:36:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (Ken and Doret), > > > You wrote to Ken O: > ---------------------------- > > As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta > commences with that. > > ---------------------------- > > I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the > commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal > meditation: > > > "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this > matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when > they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes > of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because > awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief > in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and > neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the > Arousing of Mindfulness. > > Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of > moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic > qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, > too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the > particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic > qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the > general sense of awareness is to be taken. > From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and > the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, > with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who > does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non- > opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative > practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject > of meditation. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryBody.htm#Breathing > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ========================= The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing that, Ken. Note that I said that thew sutta *commences* with formal meditation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31295 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/14/04 8:28:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Nina and Howard > > Nina, I was interested to read in the passage quoted from Ledi > Sayadaw the terms paccaya-ghatanaa (synchrony of relations), > sa-paccayaa (related to causes), and paticcasamupannaa (arising from > a conjuncture of circumstances), all of which are new to me. Are > these from the Tipitaka or commentaries, do you know? > > Howard, I am puzzled by your statement that 'All phenomena are merely > conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing > conditions from attributes', and would like to hear more about what > it means exactly, where it comes from, and how it relates to the > teaching on dependent arising. > > The typical formulation of the links of DA is in the form 'Dependent > on A, B comes to be', where A and B are phenomena/dhammas of one kind > or another. What is not stated expressly in the formulation as > contained in the suttas is the nature of the 'dependency' in > question. As we know, a dependency can take many forms. > > So to be meaningful, the formulation of the links needs to be > understood as something like this: > - Dependent on A as condition by way of X, B comes to be, or > - A conditions B by way of X condition, > where 'X' is the nature of the relationship of dependency between the > 2 phenomena/dhammas. > > Now to say that A and B are conditions and not dhammas doesn't seem > to make sense in this context. > > Looking forward to your further comments. > > Jon > ========================= I wasn't relating this issue to dependent origination. My point was merely that each actual dhamma is a single condition, itself, and not some "thing" that satisfies various conditions. Nina's statement " The dhammas themselves are not different from the quality they possess. In fact the Atthasalini says that 'there is no other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly what I had in mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31296 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Dhamma Friends, The following message contains many flaws. Please see the next message for clarification. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta pitaka) to > support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are > commonly understood as the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight > (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption > nor insight as distinct practice paths. They are simply the attainments that > one arrives at through the single practice regimen of right mindfulness > (sama-sati), which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), which are the 7th and > 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. > > Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption are simply > two sides of the same coin. One who has absorption has insight, one who has > insight has absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, > and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is simply the > other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are simply different > aspects of the same thing. > > There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, it is > the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce heat, and the > other is to produce light. The same is true of absorption (samadhi), It produces > both ecstasy (jhana), and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the > other. > > This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an > assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice regimen, however > there is no clear evidence to support this belief in the discourses of the > Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). > > The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of four > distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products or fruits of the > path. However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are four > "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the Buddha that > clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The name of the Sutta is the > Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." Therefore I believe it is > reasonable to say this sutta is simply speaking of the four fruits that are a product > of the single practice of mindfulness (sati). > > I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or fruits, > or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). And, I > believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different > practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions > must be the four results of the single attainment of right absorption > (sama-samadhi). > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice > path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path, > which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness > of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness > (sama-sati) is absorption (sama-samadhi). Absorption simply has four characteristics: > mindfulness (sati); ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha), or what the Buddha > called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana);" insight into seeing things > as they are (vipassana); and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, > or psychic abilities (lokuttara balani). > > How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice regimen of > Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption (sama- samadhi). It is > through attainment that we can find out for certain if there are four fruits > or four paths. All one need do is practice Satipatthana to its fruition in > right absorption (sama-samadhi), and one will find out whether there are four > fruits to the practice or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right > absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these separate > fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a consequence of the > dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). > > In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of concentration > (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), which leads to absorption > (samadhi) which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, mindfulness > (sati), ecstasy (jhana), insight (vipassana), and knowledge & vision, which are > the supramundane abilities (lokuttara balani). > > > Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 > Thanissaro Bhikkhu's version is at this URL: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration (samadhi). Which > four? There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana). There is the > development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to > the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). There is the > development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to > mindfulness & alertness (sati). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) > that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana)? There is the > case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from > unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana): ecstasy & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained > {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}. With the stilling of applied and sustained > {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}, he enters & remains in the second absorption > (jhana): ecstasy & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from > applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)} -- internal > assurance. With the fading of ecstasy he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and > physically sensitive to bliss (piiti). He enters & remains in the third > absorption (jhana), of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a > pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the > earlier disappearance of elation & anxiety -- he enters & remains in the fourth > absorption (jhana): purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor > pain. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani)? > There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is > resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the > same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & > unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of > concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of > knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati)? There is the case where > feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as > they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, > known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they > persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration > (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati). > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a > monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five > clinging-aggregates (cognition): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its > passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is > perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are > fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such > its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of > concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents. > > "These are the four developments of concentration. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/files/ > > Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31297 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:07am Subject: The 4 fruits of NEP, Samadhi sutta, Yuganaddha sutta, Jhana & Vipassana Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha was asked to preach dhamma by Sahampati Brahma. 2 months after His 35th birth day, that is on the full moon day of the 4th month of Buddha calendar, The Buddha preached His very first discourse called Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. The Buddha clearly stated that 2 extremes have to be avoided and there is the middle way called majjhimapatipada. That middle way is composed of eight parts and this is famously known as Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). The components are 1. samma ditthi ( right view ) 2. samma sankappa ( right thought ) 3. samma kammanta ( right action ) 4. samma vaca ( right speech ) 5. samma ajiva ( right livelihood ) 6. samma vayama ( right effort ) 7. samma sati ( right mindfulness ) 8. samma samadhi ( right concentration ) Here ' samma ' means right, appropriate, true, genuine, decent. It is not 'sama'. 'Sama' means mix, disparse, entangle. To attain arahatta magga nana, everyone has to walk on this single way. Everyone has to follow this single way. Everyone has to practise this single way called Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ) which is the middle way or majjhimapatiada. Majjhima means the middle, not the extreme. Patipada means practice. So majjhimapatipada is a balanced practice which totally avoid extremes. The Buddha did not preach there is 2 ways to nibbana or 2 methods to attain nibbana or 2 paths to nibbana or 2 techniques to attain nibbana. So there is no moist method or no dry method. There is only a single way to nibbana. That is majjhimapatipada or Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). The problem here is understanding of all these 8 parts. When these 8 parts are not fully understood, then problems arise. There is samma samadhi as one part of NEP Noble Eightfold Path. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. The Buddha did not preach as right absorption in His 1st discourse. Please read Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. There does not described 'samma jhana ' or right absorption. If this thought arises it is wrong thought. There is no 'samma jhana' or there is no ' right absorption'. Insight and absorption are not 2 sides of the same coin. Insight is totally different from absorption. Before The Buddha, there were people who attained absorption. But they did not have insight into tilakkhana called anicca ( impermanence ), dukkha ( unsatisfactoriness ), and anatta ( selflessness ). This clearly points out that they are not on each side of the same coin. Even The Buddha had not had insight before His attainment of asavakkhaya nana. Soon after meeting Alara and soon after meeting Udaka, Siddattha Gotama attained all 8 jhanas. But as he was not an ordinary person he realized that all these 8 absorptions were not the answer to questions ageing, disease, and decease. This shows that he knew that he had not had insight. When even The Buddha did not have insight while he attained jhana or absorption, it is clear that insight and absorption are not 2 sides of the same coin. Mahasatipatthana sutta described 4 cornerstones of sati or mindfulness. But these 4 are not 1.breath, 2. body, 3. sense, 4. mind. Mahasatipatthana sutta says there are 4 practices. They are 1.kayanupassana ( contemplation on physical body ) This again comprises a) anapana pabba ( breathing meditation or meditation on body of breath ) b) iriyapatha pabba ( body positional meditation ) c) sampajanna pabba ( clear understanding meditation ) d) patikulamanasika pabba ( contemplative meditation on impurity of body ) e) dhatumanasika pabba ( elemental meditation on body ) f) navasivathika pabba ( contemplative meditation on 9 stages of body decomposition ) 2. vedananupassana ( contemplation on feeling ) This knows pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling, their arising, their passing away. 3. cittanupassana ( contemplation on mind ) This knows each state of mind. 4. dhammanupassana ( contemplation on dhamma ) This knows dhamma as they really are. Whether they are hindrances, khandha, ayatana, bojjhanga, sacca and full understanding of dhamma deeply. Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi sutta describe what samadhi means, what are samadhi and where they are leading to. There are 4 possible destinations. But Samadhi sutta does not describe ''as evidence in support of 4 distinct practices or paths, or it does not speak 4 products or 4 fruit. See the following link for Samadhi sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html Even though The Buddha did not preach moist or dry method, later dhammafarers label as though. But to build up samadhi or concentration there are many methods. There are more than one method. In Yugabaddha sutta ( In Tandem ) Anguttara Nikaya IV.170, Venerable Ananda stated there are 4 kinds when arahatship is attained. 1. tranquility first then insight follow 2. insight first then tranquility follow 3. insight and tranquility go in tandem 4. not specified See the sutta in the following link. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html After reviewing all these there is no evidence that jhana or absorption is necessary to attain arahatta magga nana. Samma ditthi or right understanding is the most important. Because it is panna or wisdom. So while we are in this world in this human realm and while we have eyes to read dhamma, while we have ears to listen dhamma, we all should learn dhamma to full understanding. Understanding or wisdom or panna accumulate. If all dhamma are well understood in this life even in theoretical level, those who have done this have a potential to become sammasambuhha, paccekabuddha, or at least arahats in later life. Jhana on the other hand in its pure form is totally useless. If jhana is attained and if there is tendency to be reborn in asannasatta brahma bhumi where there is only rupa and there is no citta or nama dhamma, then Buddha dhamma will not be met. By the same token when arupa jhana are practised and be reborn in arupa brahama realms, it is totally useless because as puthujana in arupa brahma bhumi, there is no chance of attaining sotapatti magga nana. As there is no eye, ear and no rupa at all, there is no chance of meeting with Buddha Dhamma. The worst is to be reborn in the highest arupa jhana bhumi as puthujana arupa brahma. The reason of writing this message is not to dispute whether there is dry or moist method. But to remind to learn effectively while there is precious time that we have. May all being be free from wrong view. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam 31298 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: A group *consists* of paramattha dhammas. Learning more details about groups helps us to have a deeper understanding of the conditions for the rupas and of the intricate way these conditions operate. We are reminded that these rupas do not belong to us. This is a good foundation for satipatthana. After all we do not study these matters out of an academic interest. When there is awareness of realities we do not have to think of groups. Hi Nina, The reason I asked about the reality status of a group is that groups seem to make up our experience, they are definitely impermanent, but it also seems they are not, "strictly speaking", objects of consciousness. If we say an _inseparable_ group is ultimately real because it is impermanent, then I think we have to say a _separable_ group of groups is ultimately real because it is impermanent. Is there a category between concept and ultimate reality that can accommodate "group"? Does "sankhara" figure into this? How about the term "compact" (ghana)? Larry 31299 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Howard, I think space has a special status in the abhidhamma list of rupas and the various things that were said about it are in accord with your descriptions. As for time, I have a tendency to think of it as the difference occasioned by impermanence. This has to do both with "history" (memory?) and the "rebirth in a different place" which is movement. Ven. Nyanaponika has quite a bit to say about time in "Abhidhamma Studies". I'll take a look and see if I can find anything you might be interested in. Larry 31300 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hi Howard, op 13-03-2004 20:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't believe in concrete matter, Nina! ;-)) I believe in sights, > sounds, tastes, smells, and bodily sensations such as hardness/softness, > warmth/cold, itches, pressures, etc. (Very idiosyncratic!!!!!! ;-)) N: That is all right. Those are rupas, phenomena which do not see, smell, etc. The word concrete matter: I do not like it very much, but use it to distinguish certain rupas that are mere characteristics from the majority of the list of 28 rupas. > Howard: > Yes, Nina, exactly!! That is precisely why I say that the matter > versus material-attribute distinction is not maintainable. That is exactly why > I > say "All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of > distinguishing conditions from attributes." >N: like Jon I have some trouble with the notion of attribute. I do not know what to answer about this. I would put it this way: there are 24 classes of conditions and these are distinct. Concrete examples would help. Another thought: Larry used the word characterize re lightness and hardness, and I answered: I would like to add: rupas in one group condition one another by way of conascent-condition. This may solve the question about attributes and it is in agreement with the Patthana. Lightness conditions hardness by way of conascent condition. In this way we can forget about attribute, what do you think? As to Dependent Origination, here is an idea: to go over it link by link, an indepth study. Otherwise it is too much. I looked in the Dispeller at the Suttanta method. I think you take more to that than to the Abhidhamma method. But it depends on your time and inclination. One link a week? I hope others will help. You found D.P. very helpful for daily life, and therefore, going deeper into it will be beneficial. There is always more to it! But, as I said, I always hesitate to say much about this subject. As I read in the Dispeller, this subject is difficult to understand and difficult to explain. Rob K has written several posts on it. Maybe he can repost them in mini portions? Nina. 31301 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Sarah, I appreciate B.B.'s answer on space. I do not agree about his answer on luminosity, where he speaks about some texts being later. But I have no need to debate. Nina. op 14-03-2004 06:04 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > .... > BB:>Of course, any further comments you care to make would > be greatly appreciated. In Karunadasa’s article on > Time and Space, I also believe there may be errors in > his treatment on space in this regard. > > With metta, > Bhikkhu Bodhi< 31302 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/14/04 3:21:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > As to Dependent Origination, here is an idea: to go over it link by link, > an > indepth study. Otherwise it is too much. I looked in the Dispeller at the > Suttanta method. I think you take more to that than to the Abhidhamma > method. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! ;-) --------------------------------------------- But it depends on your time and inclination. One link a week? I hope> > others will help. > You found D.P. very helpful for daily life, and therefore, going deeper into > it will be beneficial. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly beneficial. It is very deep. Moreover, it is not an unreasonable view to see dependent arising as constituting the core of the Dhamma, or at least constituting a central part of the core. ----------------------------------------------- There is always more to it! But, as I said, I always> > hesitate to say much about this subject. As I read in the Dispeller, this > subject is difficult to understand and difficult to explain. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: There well may be endless depths to plumb here. Well worth the diving in! ----------------------------------------------- Rob K has> > written several posts on it. Maybe he can repost them in mini portions? > Nina. > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31303 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hello Howard, Nina, RobK, and all, If anyone is interested in studying the Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination), I'd be interested also. Have you seen this link? What do you think of the suggested texts? Dependent Origination Workshop: http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 3/14/04 3:21:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > writes: > > > As to Dependent Origination, here is an idea: to go over it link by link, > > an > > indepth study. Otherwise it is too much. I looked in the Dispeller at the > > Suttanta method. I think you take more to that than to the Abhidhamma > > method. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Indeed! ;-) > --------------------------------------------- > But it depends on your time and inclination. One link a week? I hope> > > others will help. > > You found D.P. very helpful for daily life, and therefore, going deeper into > > it will be beneficial. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly beneficial. It is very deep. Moreover, it is not an > unreasonable view to see dependent arising as constituting the core of the Dhamma, or > at least constituting a central part of the core. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > There is always more to it! But, as I said, I always> > > hesitate to say much about this subject. As I read in the Dispeller, this > > subject is difficult to understand and difficult to explain. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There well may be endless depths to plumb here. Well worth the diving > in! > ----------------------------------------------- > Rob K has> > > written several posts on it. Maybe he can repost them in mini portions? > > Nina. > > > ======================== > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31304 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:28am Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hi, Christine and all - In a message dated 3/14/04 4:05:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Howard, Nina, RobK, and all, > > If anyone is interested in studying the Paticcasamuppada (Dependent > Origination), I'd be interested also. > > Have you seen this link? What do you think of the suggested texts? > > Dependent Origination Workshop: > http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine =========================== Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31305 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Hello Jon, Nina and all. Thanks for the encouraging feedback, Jon and Nina. > It was inspiring to read what you said about your realisation of the > pitfalls of trying to 'transform dosa'. Obviously there were > accumulated tendencies to see this, it just needed you to come across > mention of it somewhere! So the credit goes to you ;-)). P: Well, if Sarah hadn't thought to ask me how my reading was going - though I hadn't made an appearance for weeks - and you hadn't posted what you did about the importance of Abhidhamma, and Nina hadn't made her books available online, and other members hadn't written the invaluable archive posts I read, none of this new understanding would have arisen. I think it provides an axample of how we can play an important role in the arising of kusala in others. I guess whether panna comes along with it or not is another matter. >> There are lots of 'benefits' of lots of different 'practices'. > However, benefits don't make a practice kusala ;-)) > > So rather than thinking in terms of a 'practice', it may be more > useful to think in terms of developing kusala of whatever kind > whenever the opportunity arises. P: I'd like to tell you about some further insight I've had about the way I have been practicing in the wrong way. And why I'm afraid I can't give up this practice for the time being. This will be long and self-absorbed, but thinking about it is very important for me so please bear with me. I was reading K Sujin's book on Metta the other day when I came across this line: "When there is metta, we think of the well being of someone else, whereas when there is conceit we find ourselves important." Needless to say I took this as a hint to run a check on my own practice of metta. At first, I was able to see it as a very selfless exercise - I do the contemplations in the morning in order to develop a sense of people taking care of each other with small moments of metta and karuna. What I called the "metta ripple effect" before. I don't involve myself in this contemplation, just work through the people I know I will be seeing that day, in different situations. (My life is amazingly repetitive. I don't know if this is true for everyone, or if it is a reflection of the comfortable uniformity of experience here in Japan, but I can easily predict what kind of situations will be arising during the day.) I sometimes intentionally include insights that have arisen during previous days. For example, the other day I was walking down a drab concrete boulevard towards the station when I became aware in a new way of all the people going by on bicycles. I suddenly felt compassion arising for everyone. We are carried through life, off to work, off shopping, off to see friends, thinking we're in control, but we are just being impelled along, always looking in vain for satisfaction and a sense of permanence through our daily experience. (I use "we" here to refer to people in general.) I just felt this compassion for the human condition, as seen through people biking to the station to go off and do whatever they are compelled to do. All that dukkha. And this led to a very friendly feeling, and a desire to do whatever I could to help people, because life is so hard etc. So the next morning, I included an image of people bicyling in my karuna contemplation, intentionally reinforcing that insight. And now whenever I see someone bicycling, even if they're not going to the station, it leads to an arising of a compassionate/friendly feeling. That's a fact - it does. So I asked myself if there conceit in this, and at first said no. But then as I kept thinking I realized what I was up to. I am seeking to transform the world I live in to make it a pleasant environment to operate in. I am making a beautiful playing ground for self. I thought of that movie "Pleasantville" where all was a black and white world until elements of colour started to arise. I am intentionally seeking to colour my world in a rose-coloured way, to make it into METTA LAND so I can feel comfortable and happy. Also, I think it's metta as an evolutionary tactic. I am in a situation now where I have to get cracking about coming up with ways to make money through my writing. I'm hitting middle age with a small salary, no pension and a wife. Transforming my world to make it a metta field is a kind of evolutionary survival tactic to make Japan a more supportive environment in which I can go out and hustle my children's picture book stories. (Japan is a meeca for picture book writers, because adults read them here too.) The picture book world is a "survival of the friendliest" kind of environment, maybe! Anyways, I see now what I've been up to. I don't think I can afford to stop it right now. I do have to hustle those stories. I do have to generate wordly ambition or my wife and I will be in trouble in our old age. Alas, worldly concerns will handicap my movement towards enlightenment in this lifetime. I think if I were single it would be different. I'm sure many beginners who practice metta are up to a similar thing. Using it to make the world seem like a more loving place in order to try to hide from suffering. It's like I'm taking sobahna steroids to enhance my performance in the loving-kindness field. Like real steroids there are harmful side effects to this practice. I've exagerated the crudeness of my approach a little, I'm sure. But not much... Thanks for your time. Metta, Phil p.s nina and jon, I have printed out your comments about kusala and panna and will be thinking a lot more about them. 31306 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Htoo, and thank-you ever so much for taking so much interest in my writing. However you happened to claim that I did not provide any canonical support for that writing. May I point you in the direction of the Sutta that I was discoursing upon, the Samadhi Sutta of AN IV.41, it was clearly stated in the original message. In fact you even mentioned it in your message, so you must have just over looked that fact. Be that as it may, I found you expressed many thoughts, views and opinions and you threw about a whole lot of Pali terms, which I am sure impresses the naive, however you failed once again to provide a single canonical reference in support of your thoughts, view and opinions. I am beginning to wonder if you have ever read any of the suttas you claim to have read. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/13/04 4:32:20 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:47:37 -0000 From: "htootintnaing" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Dhamma Friends, This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to enlightenment which is wrong. When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. There are still some people who do not have enough time to read Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be contaminated with wrong ideas. May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, Htoo Naing >> 31307 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Vism.XIV 64, 65 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 64. 17. Lightness of matter has the characteristic of non-slowness. Its function is to dispel heaviness of matter. It is manifested as light transformability. Its proximate cause is light matter (cf. Dhs. 639). 18. Malleability of matter has the characteristic of non-stiffenedness. Its function is to dispel stiffness of matter. It is manifested as non-opposition to any kind of action. Its proximate cause is malleable matter (cf. Dhs. 640). 19. Wieldiness of matter has the characteristic of wieldiness that is favourable to bodily action. Its function is to dispel unwieldiness. It is manifested as non-weakness. Its proximate cause is wieldy matter (cf. Dhs. 641). 65. These three, however, are not found apart from each other. Still their difference may be understood as follows. Lightness of matter is alteration of matter such as any light (agile) state in material instances, as in one who is healthy, any non-slowness, any manner of light transformability in them, which is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating sluggishness of matter. Malleability of matter is alteration of matter such as any malleable state in material instances, as in a well-pounded hide, any pliable manner consisting in amenableness to exercise of power over them in all kinds of work without distinction, which [449] is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating stiffness of matter. Wieldiness of matter is alteration of matter such as any wieldy state in material instances, as in well-refined gold, any manner in them consisting in favourableness to the work of the body, which is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating unfavourableness to the work of the body. 31308 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Rebirth Linking Hi RobM, We haven't corresponded for a while, hope all's well with you. This is sure an interesting topic--is there a Paali equivalent to the expression, 'rebirth-linking'? As you know, my knowledge of abhidhamma AND Paali are sorely limited--thanks for your patience. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 12:37 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: BB2 - RobM -Kamma > > ...I understand that > > completed kamma (kamma-patha) has enough power to > > condition rebirth linking, but is kamma-patha a > > requirement for any kamma to be created? 31309 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi Howard, this is a quote from Jon, he should have the credit for it. Nina. op 14-03-2004 16:42 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Nina's statement " The dhammas > themselves are not different from the quality they possess. In fact the > Atthasalini > says that 'there is no other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly > what > I had in mind. 31310 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, S: I appreciate your very well-considered comments. Apologies again for the delays on my part. .... > Jack: > I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that > proper > understanding of an object is necessary before one does > samadhi/vipassana > meditation? .... S: Yes. Right understanding of the object and how it should be known or experienced in order for wisdom and other wholesome qualities to develop. If there is no distinction between right view and wrong view (of the samatha or vipassana kind) or between pleasant feeling accompanying wholesome and unwholesome consciousness, there won’t be any samadhi/vipassana bhavana (meditation). S: I think B.Bodhi gives a very good introduction to Nanamoli’s translation of the Sammaditthi Sutta here: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm ***** BB:“As its title suggests, the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path (pubbangama), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors. “Right view, as explained in the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta, has a variety of aspects, but it might best be considered as twofold: conceptual right view, which is the intellectual grasp of the principles enunciated in the Buddha's teaching, and experiential right view, which is the wisdom that arises by direct penetration of the teaching. Conceptual right view, also called the right view in conformity with the truths (saccanulomika-sammaditthi), is a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma arrived at by study of the Buddha's teachings and deep examination of their meaning. Such understanding, though conceptual rather than experiential, is not dry and sterile. When rooted in faith in the Triple Gem and driven by a keen aspiration to realize the truth embedded in the formulated principles of the Dhamma, it serves as a critical phase in the development of wisdom (panna), for it provides the germ out of which experiential right view gradually evolves. “Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha-sammaditthi). This type of right view is aroused by the practice of insight meditation guided by a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma. To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and wisdom. If conceptual right view van be compared to a hand, a hand that grasps the truth by way of concepts, then experiential right view can be compared to an eye -- the eye of wisdom that sees directly into the true nature of existence ordinarily hidden from us by our greed, aversion and delusion.” **** J:> My experience is that following instructions in a metta meditation such > as, > "Think of a loved one. Get in touch with that feeling. May they be at > peace...." is how one learns about metta. One can only learn this > experientially. Are > you saying one has to understand metta conceptually before one can > experience > it? .... S: I think the conceptual and experiential understanding develop together. In other words, the more one understands about the precise nature of metta and about attachment (its near enemy), the less likely we are to take the attachment and pleasant feeling we feel towards loved ones as being metta. Metta has the characteristic of friendliness to all, regardless of whether they are loved ones or strangers one meets. Some people have the idea of developing metta towards oneself or in a quiet room, rather than on the street when one’s tired and flustered. I think the careful considering helps a lot. Otherwise we're bound to be fooled or cheated by the attachment we often have to being the ‘loving person’. Most helpful of all is the development of satipatthana which understands metta as a conditioned reality, not ‘my metta’ at all. .... J: > Again, I'm not sure what you mean by understand. To me, one learns that > which > you mention above by observing closely. Instructions such as, observe > the > difference between rupa and nama, are useful but not necessary. If you > look > carefully you could discover this by yourself without this instruction. > I think you > would disagree, right? ... S: Right;-) If we had never come across the Buddha’s teachings it would be impossible to clearly distinguish the characteristics of nama and rupa and to know them as anatta. Even Sariputta had not attained any vipassana insight knowledge before hearing the brief lines of the teachings. If we think otherwise, or think it’s just common sense, perhaps we need to hear more about nama and rupa. If we agree, we still need to hear a lot, lot more. .... J: > If I was a scientist and trying to find a cure for cancer, I would spend > a > lot of time observing how cancer operates and how different potential > cures > affect it. When I meditate, I spend a lot of time seeing how the > physical > sensation of my breath affects my mental processes, how the physical and > mental > aspects of each breath are selfless, not ultimately pleasant and > temporary, etc. > Observing the breath alone can let me know/experience the presence of > suffering, > the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and paths to > alleviate > suffering. .... S: Jack, I’d suggest that in your case there has been a very significant amount of wise consideration and reflection and that you’re not just concentrating on your breath and hoping for nibbana. I think the distinction between the natural development of samatha and the attachment to such development can be quite subtle. For example, there may be conditions for wise reflection on breath or metta arising in a day naturally. If one sets out to have it arise now or at another time, attachment is bound to creep in, I think. I look forward to your feedback here. .... J: > A scientist just looking into a microscope without trying to really see > what > is happening is not going to do anyone any good. My looking at my breath > > during meditation without trying to see what is happening is also not > doing me any > good. .... S: Agreed;-) .... J: > I still don't understand you answer to my question of > If one's object > of > attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what does one have > to > understand about it before using it in mental development?< .... S: My question to you would be this: Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any particular object? Metta, Sarah p.s Pls see my discussion with Htoo also;-) ===== 31311 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear Htoo, S:I think there is really one part of the equipment we have anything further to discuss: .... > > S: Ready. Let me just ask for another clarification. In your new > series(04) there's plenty of good stress on anatta and > understanding > different > > dhammas as they arise. This being the case, why do you write > `he > has been > > in sitting meditation for a long time'? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Just typical case. In Biology there is typical cell which > contains all characters of plants and animals. Anatta can be seen at > any time. In the office, in the water, on top of the mountain, in the > sky and so on. > --------------------------------------------------------------.... S: This being the case, wouldn’t a more typical case be ‘whilst eating lunch’, ‘in the office’, ‘rushing for a bus or train’, ‘watching TV’ and so on? Also, I notice in the series that you always give the same typical case of ‘in sitting meditation for a long time’. Unless we have the idea that this is the ‘best’ case, I don’t think it will be typical at all. .... <......> > Htoo: Nothing really. I just follow his thought. Thought tracing :-) > Don't you think there is Atta. He said Anapana is elementary. > Satipatthana and Mahasatipatthana are graduate level. So I just want > to know what doctorial level is. .... S: ;-) OK, I think I missed the other post. It doesn’t make any sense, but we can just help to lay out the equipment and map and leave the rest to conditions, understanding our own cittas when we read views we consider erroneous. No need to be unduly concerned. .... S: I like some of your more recent letters such as the dove ‘kooing’ one. You include abhidhamma detail which I appreciate. If I ask you why you always refer to ‘the meditator’, especially in ‘Sensing dhamma (08)’, for example, you’ll tell me it’s just a conventional term and it’s panna that knows. I think it might be less misleading to use rt understanding or panna rather than the meditator who ‘has been practising meditation’, especially as you refer to other realities. In other words, in spite of your comments about anatta, it still sounds like there is an atta meditating, selecting certain objects, convinced that sitting a long time is better and forgetting that namas and rupas are conditioned and not in anyone’s control at this very moment. I look forward to your clarifications. I’m keen to start the journey together but am aware of lots of attachment flooding in, wishing to sort out and finally agree on the equipment as soon as possible. I think the map is clear, right? Metta, Sarah p.s Please see my post to Jack just written and one to KenO, hopefully coming. ================= 31312 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, ---------------------------- H:> > > > As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta > > commences with that. > > > ---------------------------- KH: > > > I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the > > commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal > > meditation: > > > > > > "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this > > matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when > > they move on that they are moving. ------------------- H:> > The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during > ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing that, Ken. Note that > I said that the sutta *commences* with formal meditation. > Good point – the commentary does not say, "Just as dogs and jackals know they are breathing in (etc.)." I have to admit I'm not sure why that is. Over recent years, Nina and others have explained this sutta at great length, but, typically, I have retained very little. I notice the Sutta (not the commentary) says;" Just as a clever turner or a turner's apprentice, turning long, understands: 'I turn long;' or turning short, understands: 'I turn short'; just so, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, when he breathes in long, understands: 'I breathe in long'; I think this is making the same point, don't you? Jhana was taught by many great teachers -- it is not vipassana but it is certainly kusala. So we wouldn't want to liken it to the understanding of dogs and jackals. The understanding of a clever turner (or his apprentice (disciple)) is a more appropriate metaphor. As I read the commentary, the bhikkhu practising jhana then realises he has to gain insight as taught by the Buddha: "He trains himself with the thought: 'Experiencing the whole body, I *shall* breathe in'(etc)." This is where the characteristics of breath (as rupa), start to become known. So where does that leave formal meditation? Is mundane jhana the same as formal meditation? No, it can't be. Jhana is the result of a very high level of understanding (of the nature of kusala): it is not something a person without huge accumulations of panna can set out to do. On the other hand, formal meditation is no more kusala (or akusala) than is any other part of daily life. So, I stand by my original objection: there is no formal meditation in the Satipatthana-sutta. Kind regards, Ken H 31313 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken O, I’m no good at chess and tire easily on marathons (unlike our good friend Sukin;-)), but enjoy the Brazuka (I just think about Icaro's good cheer);-) .... --- Ken O wrote: > k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for > satipatthana to arise. .... S: Whilst in jhana or sleep. What else as Ken H also asked? .... K:>As I say, lets be objective, we encourage > others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of > self, but we have to encourage others to avoid aksuala actions > because it can condition akusala cittas. Encourage others to avoid > akusala does not pertain to one should be purposedly living holy, it > encourges how to consider dhamma more as condition arise. .... S: Agreed, there hasn’t been any suggestion to the contrary. .... > k: These are exceptions. Have you seen other examples of monks > before the blade end their life become Arahant. .... S: Actually, yes. In addition to Godhika in Marasamyutta, SN, there’s the case of Channa, MN144 which has been discussed before. A case I find very interesting is that of Vakkali as given in Khandhasamyutta, SN22:87. (Reference to Vakkali came up in the Satipatthana sutta & commentary with regard to the balancing of the faculties. Vakkali had extremely strong faith or confidence (saddha) and followed the Buddha around everywhere until commanded by the Buddha to leave. Vakkali was depressed and lived on the Gijjhakuta mountain (Vulture’s Peak), Raajagaha before becoming an arahant.) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18513.html In the SN account, Vakkali listens to the Buddha and later whilst gravely sick repeats the word, stating he has no perplexity, but after the other bhikkhus leave he ‘used the knife’ but is later said by the Buddha to have attained to parinibbana. B. Bodhi adds a commentary note: “Spk explains: ‘the elder, it is said, overestimated himself. As he had suppressed the defilements by concentration and insight, he did not see himself assailed by them and thus thought he was an arahant. Disgusted with his miserable life, he cut his jugular vein with a sharp knife. Just then, painful feelings arose in him. Realizing he was still a worldling, he took up his main meditation subject, explored it with knowledge, and attained arahantship just as he died.’” Also many unusual examples are given in the Theri-Theragatha. .... K: >Buddha dont condone > such actions so let not encourage others to do likewise just because > we say we should be natural and others get a false impression and do > what they like. Certain actions are no-no. Have you seen Buddha > tell his monks let get drunk and hoping conditions will arise to be > an Arahant ;-). ... S: Of course not. We all agree, Ken. By clearly understanding realities and eliminating wrong view, the danger of breaking the precepts and other more subtle kinds of unwholesome deeds or intentions or mental states will be seen more and more for what they are and the danger and seriousness of the unwholesome states will be stressed all the more. The point however, is that the frequent wise pondering, reflecting, considering and memorising that you often refer to and which we often read about in the texts, do not refer to long stories of time-consuming reflection and memorising which are incapable of arising whilst watching TV, performing unwholesome deeds or at any other time. Last Friday, some of my students were testing my limits and even whilst this was happening, I thought about lady Vedehika being tested by her servant, Kali and smiled. At one point, however, after hearing the same racist joke a few times, mopping up a spilt coke on my new wooden floor and putting up with StarKid Philip’s deliberate contrariness, I was really getting quite impatient and visibly annoyed. Even during these split seconds of imptience and annoyance, there were moments of wise reflection and awareness of the states and their unwholesome nature. No great insights, but my point is merely that anytime is the right time, but because the understanding and awareness is weak (certainly not yet ‘powers’;-)), they are bound to be followed again by unwholesome states and even ideas of self or some ‘thing’ which easily follow moments of weak satipatthana. You’ve quoted from Dvedhaavitakka Sutta, MN19, a couple of times. “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of this mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire.......” As the title suggests, the sutta is referring to two kinds of vitakka (applied thinking), as I understand - kusala (wholesome) and akusala (unwholesome), leading to kusala and akusala kamma-patha through the mind. As we know, vitakka cetasika (or sammaa sankappa if its’ ‘right’ in the eightfold path) is a lot faster and a lot more subtle than our conventional ideas of thinking or mental action. ‘bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicaareti’- frequently thinks (with vitakka)and ponders upon (with vicara). There can be frequent wise reflection and memorising of what one has heard at any time. Whether it is sufficient to abandon ‘thoughts of sensual desire’ and the performing of akusala kamma patha is another quesion and will depend on accumulated tendencies, strength of insight and so on as I see it. .... > k: I think you are so scare of self sneaking in, is it a self that > is scare of self :-). That is part of the explanation of lets not > be fooled by condition. Let not be fooled by conditions is to me, > just because all are conditions, we should be laze around and say: > "so be it". .... S: Ideas of self or other wrong views are bound to sneak in just as quickly. Understanding of conditions and the uncontrollabily of cittas helps us to see these and not take them for self either. It’s funny about the ‘lazing around’. I know what you mean. I used to think that if I didn’t push myself to read or study more that somehow it would be detrimental to the development of wisdom. I haven’t thought like that for a long time, not even when I was very sick for a couple of years and was still teaching long hours and often very cranky. Why? Because, understanding and straightening of views is the key, rather than any particular activity. Wise reflection arises very naturally when the conditions are right and without any special idea of ‘should’ or ‘ought’. I just read a note from a friend who mentioned K.Sujin had been to see a Thai historical/cultural film with friends three times! Some people might be shocked by this example. For me, it just indicates her confidence in satipatthana and the very ordinariness of its arising. No need to show people, just as you said, that one is always performing good deeds, is socially 'engaged' or reading Dhamma texts. The greatest kusala kamma-patha is right understanding of realities, which can arise just as easily in the cinema as elsewhere if there are the right conditions for it. Finally, to quote Sukin: “If one does not understand that everything is conditioned and has even a slight idea of being able to control situations, this can be a hindrance.” Also: “There are many, many other aspects of dhamma to consider which would lead one along the correct path, and there are many more which leads us in other directions. And I still maintain, that it all hinges upon Right View/Wrong View.” Look forward to more of your marathon posts together and await your ‘barking terrier’ response to me;-);-) Metta, Sarah p.s More friendly greetings between two bhikkhus in one of the suttas Christine gave - is it memorised?;-) ======= 31314 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:14am Subject: Hey Shakti ! Hello Shakti, I need to book accommodation this week and wonder if you received my last email? Could you reply off-list with your broker's email add. please? cheers, Chris 31315 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:13am Subject: Howard's new religion - Idiosyncratism (was patience and lots more) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote (on space): H: >Please see my reply to Larry's last post on this thread. It is yet another adventure in Idiosyncratism (my new religion)! ;-))< .... S: ;-);-) Are you sure your new religion is an adventure in Idiosyncratism rather than Idiosyncrasy?? Your choice certainly sounds more novel, but I can understand why my fellow-countrymen accuse you lot of reinventing the language;-) This reminded me that I hadn’t quite finished with another thread on terms (in spite of any wishes of yours to the contrary;-)) You explained to Nina and me: > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, there are some differences with these terms.To be a devotee > or > follower of someone worth being devoted to and following is admirable. > There is > nothing wrong in beng a devotee or follower per se. I consider myself a > devotee and follower of the Buddha, for example, and, if I bragged, I > would brag > about it! ;-) .... S: Hmmm, I think it’s one thing to use the terms about oneself and another to use them for others. Of course it depends on the cittas involved, but I would avoid using them, unless speaking to you, perhaps;-) Referring to oneself or someone else being a follower or a devotee of the Dhamma would be more appropriate, I think. I just referred to the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta (which prompted this post): >’The story of the Thera Vakkali. This venerable person who fulfilled his duties through keen faith liked to behold the Master always. The Master admonished him saying, "What shall it profit you to see this impure body. Who sees the Dhamma, sees me," ‘ ..... H: >Being a doctrinaire devotee or follower, however, is less > worthwhile. .... S: Yes, again I would be very wary of using these terms for others as it might well sound derogatory or insulting and fail the ‘agreeable to others’ test. I say this, but I’m sure many things I say fail this test. Again, it’s the intention whilst using them that’s important in the end. We’re bound to make mistakes and as Christine pointed out, there are bound to be cultural and linguistic differences too. .... H: >Now, having an idiosyncratic interpretation of a teaching is > a neutral > matter. It is excellent if the interpretation is correct, and less so if > not. ..... S: Again, I’d probably stick to my own (or your fair-game;-)) interpretations under this banner or just to limited phrases or aspects another uses and suggest they sound idiosyncratic to me. I’d be carefull about referring, for example, to X’s or Y’s idiosyncratic interpretation of the Buddha’s teaching in general (even if I thought it in this case and might well be right), in case anyone might take offence. For example, talking to Michael, if I had referred to Nagarjuna’s ‘idiosyncratic interpretations’ in general, I think it would have been counter-productive. I might have been wrong and it might have sounded quite neutral to him too. Anyway, if we were all too careful, we’d never post. I get into trouble with my teasing - not everyone is as good-humoured as KenO. Hmmm..... Metta, Sarah ======= 31316 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:13am Subject: Contact Dear Sarah, In your message #31065 you queried: S: just to be really picky, I think `contact the meeting point' and `thinking & pondering are the evaluators' can be misleading. E: `Contact the meeting point' may be understood in 2 ways. (1) Eye, forms and eye-consciousness; the meeting of these three is contact. And so with the other senses. Say, you are watching an interesting program on TV when your daughter calls you to dine, and she gets no response. Or say, something is getting burnt in the oven close to you and you are not aware of it. Or say, at the end of the TV program you get up with a backache since you were not seated properly and was so engrossed in watching the program. Now in each of these instances the relevant consciousness(ear, nose and body) was not in that place for you to be aware of these things. There was the sound from your daughter calling you to dine and your ear was intact but ear-consciousness was not present; and so with the others. (2) Contact can also be understood as between me and things. I am and things are in contact with me. I build up a relationship between me and things. Things are mine. My car, my house and so on. The Puthujjana does not see this mirage(self) and he continues to believe in a self. These two ways are really one, if "me" can be seen as the eye and eye- consciousness put together. Because one conceives this body first before conceiving other things to be mine. S: Just to clarify - the wrong view or mirage is eradicated at stage of sotapanna, but still mana and subtle attachment until arahant. Wrong view is eradicated but not the mirage. The gross self can be understood as the personality view(sakkayaditti), which is eradicated. But the subtle `self', the conceit I am(mana), still persist until arahant. Hence the mirage is still there(in a way), but now one knows that it is a mirage hence the imperative, "one should not conceive". Whereas in relation to the Arahant, Lord Buddha says "he does not conceive………." Metta eznir 31317 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:22am Subject: Sankhara Dear Sarah, In your message #31065 you queried: S: Rather than `sankhara at any time to all of those items', do you mean `paccaya' (condition)? I'm rather confused by the last couple of sentences. (E: The last couple of sentences that S meant is; "Sankhara and Sankhata Dhamma go in pairs. In paticcasamuppada there are 12 such pairs. Each is the sankhara to the following item in turn. But, there are other items, like ignorance, which is sankhara at any time to all of those items"). E: I recognize Sankhara as dependent condition, when and where ever it occurs in the Suttas. In the Culla Vedalla Sutta MN-44 the lay- follower Visakha asks Bhikkuni Dhammadina this question "How many formations(Sankhara) are there, what they are and why they are so called?" She answers this question taking as an example the 3 fundamental modes of expression(doors) viz., thought, word and deed, which in effect covers the 5-clinging-aggregates that Lord Buddha has said, in brief, is Suffering. This Sutta together with Parivatta Sutta SN XXII.56, where Sankhara is understood as the six bodies of intentions implies that experience in general is Sankhara. This leads to the understanding that experience is Paticcasamuppada anuloma and therefore all 12 items in Paticcasamuppada is a Sankara, ie., dependently arising or paticcasamuppanna. If one follows the thought pattern that underlie the words written in these two potions of the Suttas, and investigates matters through meditation, things should be clear. To summaries what is said: 1) That which determines the body -in/out breathing- is kayasankhara. Determinations that are bodily – bodily activity- is kayasancetana. 2) That which determines speech –thinking & pondering (vitakka/vicara) - is vacisankhara. Determinations that are verbal – verbal approach- is vacisancetana. 3) That which determines the mind(citta) –feeling & perceptions- is cittasankhara. Determinations that are mental –mental activity- is manosancetana. Consider this illustration for further clarification: Let's say you meet a childhood pal of yours after a long time in a busy market-place. You see him at a distance and you want to attract his attention. His form, your eye and eye-consciousness, the meeting of the three is contact. Your recognition of him and the joy of seeing him is perception and feeling –cittasankhara, that gives rise to a mind (citta) –a sankhata dhamma. The mental activity that runs through the mind at that moment(wanting to see him, speak to him, reminisce the good old days etc.,) is manosancetana. To attract his attention you wave at him, an action that is bodily – kayasancetana. The fact that the body, a sankhata dhamma, was intact and in good health is due to in/out breathing(among other factors)- is kayasankhara. Subsequently you reach him, thinking and pondering what to say (preparing your speech)- is vacisankhara, and the formed words that are spoken is sankhata dhamma. The fact that you took a verbal approach to the meeting is vacisancetana. This is a rather crude illustration of how a Sankhata Dhamma(a compounded thing) is perpetually kept persisting in time(see AN Sankhata Sutta III.47 for persistence) by the choice of the moment (intentions/cetana) among a variety of choices(that is presented to your consciousness at that moment)to choose from(Sankhara). Note also how body, speech and mind come into play and therefore the 5-clinging- aggregates. This is a particular incident. Experience is filled with such particular incidences, packed back-to-back, which gives the impression of a continuous flow of experiences in general. And so we say that `life moves on!" As to how much subtle an experiential incident that one could see depends on ones perception. If the meeting of the two friends were to be seen through the eyes of a 35mm cine-film cameraman; one would find that the seemingly continuous flow of the scene is actually a series of still picture frames unraveling at the rate of 24 frames per second. If seen through the `eye-of-wisdom' of Lord Buddha, I suppose, one would find that the seemingly continuous flow-of-experience, what is called existence, is actually a series of `citta frames', as in the Abhidhamma, unraveling at a rate of billions per second(I don't know how much exactly?*#). Verification of which depends on the range of vision of the Ariyasavaka. The point being driven here is the interaction between Sankhara and Sankhata Dhamma. Compare with the changing scenario as composed of the stillness of picture frames. Compare also with the 92 eons being composed of 100 years of human life span(provided that one is always born as a human being). Incidentally, note what a `blip' a life span is compared to the 92 eons of existence. This is on a macro scale. To continue this image on a micro scale; even to a puthujjana, this "stillness of a single picture frame" of a 100 years of life span (mistakenly taken as permanent) is a changing scenario from day to day. But the impermanence of all sankhara that Lord Buddha speaks of is said only to be found when one investigates into the abyss of the mind, secluded by the changing scenario offered by the sensual pleasures, breaking through the barrier of conceptuality(namarupa), when one surfs the waves of the elements. Metta eznir 31318 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I appreciate B.B.'s answer on space. .... yes, I'll send more links to posts as he requests. ... > I do not agree about his answer on luminosity, where he speaks about > some > texts being later. But I have no need to debate. .... This is consistent with his earlier response. Like you, I think it's unfortunate and don't agree with cherry-picking from the same commentary texts (eg commentary to AN), but we may need to let this one be and just respect that everyone comes to thier own conclusions as I mentioned to Jou yesterday. Metta, Sarah ======= 31319 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jack, S: My question to you would be this: > Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any > particular object? > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Pls see my discussion with Htoo also;-) What?? Because this is what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught to give attention to the breath in many different suttas. Do you remember the Buddha??? He's that one who isn't A. Sujin! ;-)) Why do you ask this odd question? What are you getting at? Metta, James 31320 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah K: As usual my usual barking terrier self ;-). > .... > S: Whilst in jhana or sleep. What else as Ken H also asked? > .... k: Sure tell me if you are now telling a lie at that moment you can attain Nibbana. Fat hope. Only after that aksuala moment then there is a possibility. We have to clearly know the jati of the citta since satipatthana only works in kusala citta so there will be no enlightement during akusala citta. Though akusala cittas can be a condition for kusala. They are exclusive! > S: Actually, yes. In addition to Godhika in Marasamyutta, SN, > there’s the case of Channa, MN144 which has been discussed before. A case I find very interesting is that of Vakkali as given in Khandhasamyutta, SN22:87. k: I know the story also as I said these are exceptions. If you read the spk notes - Buddha dont condone such actions. If you hope that doing such actions will help one to gain enlightement, hey go ahead and be my guest ;-). > The point however, is that the frequent wise pondering, reflecting, > considering and memorising that you often refer to and which we > often read about in the texts, do not refer to long stories of time-consuming reflection and memorising which are incapable of arising whilst watching TV, performing unwholesome deeds or at any other time. Last Friday some of my students were testing my limits and even whilst this was happening, k: Testing you limits are the one you set yourself. Since panna is weak so there is a limit. If panna whos you as a not self, where is the limit. As I said earlier to Sukin, it is up to you to choose your own action. If you feel reading newspaper and watch TV can increase your panna, go ahead and be my guests. Panna do come in thin air. If they do, Buddha will not have been preaching it for 45 years. S: Whether it is sufficient to abandon ‘thoughts of sensual desire’ and the performing of akusala kamma patha is another quesion and will depend on accumulated tendencies, strength of insight and so on as I see it. K: do you know that all your knowlegde of dhamma comes also from the ability from sanna. If sanna dont work its function, we will not be able to distinguish between kusala and akusala. So everything you think and do sanna has already working on it. > .... > S: Ideas of self or other wrong views are bound to sneak in just as > quickly. Understanding of conditions and the uncontrollabily of > cittas helps us to see these and not take them for self either. > > It’s funny about the ‘lazing around’. I know what you mean. I used > to think that if I didn’t push myself to read or study more that > somehow it would be detrimental to the development of wisdom. k: that is a false concept. I did not suggest you go and study the text right now because it will be impossible because panna will not arose effort to do it. I ask you to reflect more not ask you to be holy. K: You mention about A Sujin being natural. Just her what I ask you, if you think panna will work out of thing air, be my guest. Right Understanding is not just simply right understanding. Right understanding has different level. Going to movie is not right undestanding, is a sign show that panna is not strong enough. Go and ask her whether what I said is true or not ;-). Examples like these are good to show living naturally and not trying to be holy but not good for showing what is truly right understanding. Ken O 31321 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - I'm sorry, Ken, but I just don't see how you addressed the point that Imade about the sutta beginning with formal meditation, Idon't know what the "dogs and jackals" business is all about, and I don't see what point about ongoing mindfulness you think you have made that I would disagree with. I just don't get it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/15/04 2:53:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > ---------------------------- > H:> > >>>As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana > Sutta > >>commences with that. > > >>---------------------------- > > > KH: > > >>I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the > >>commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal > >>meditation: > >> > >> > >>"When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In > this > >>matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know > when > >>they move on that they are moving. > ------------------- > H:> > > The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during > >ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing > that, Ken. Note that > >I said that the sutta *commences* with formal meditation. > > > > > Good point – the commentary does not say, "Just as dogs and jackals > know they are breathing in (etc.)." > > I have to admit I'm not sure why that is. Over recent years, Nina > and others have explained this sutta at great length, but, > typically, I have retained very little. > > I notice the Sutta (not the commentary) says;" Just as a clever > turner or a turner's apprentice, turning long, understands: 'I turn > long;' or turning short, understands: 'I turn short'; just so, > indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, when he breathes in long, > understands: 'I breathe in long'; > > I think this is making the same point, don't you? Jhana was taught > by many great teachers -- it is not vipassana but it is certainly > kusala. So we wouldn't want to liken it to the understanding of dogs > and jackals. The understanding of a clever turner (or his apprentice > (disciple)) is a more appropriate metaphor. > > As I read the commentary, the bhikkhu practising jhana then realises > he has to gain insight as taught by the Buddha: "He trains himself > with the thought: 'Experiencing the whole body, I *shall* breathe > in'(etc)." This is where the characteristics of breath (as rupa), > start to become known. > > So where does that leave formal meditation? Is mundane jhana the > same as formal meditation? No, it can't be. Jhana is the result of > a very high level of understanding (of the nature of kusala): it is > not something a person without huge accumulations of panna can set > out to do. On the other hand, formal meditation is no more kusala > (or akusala) than is any other part of daily life. So, I stand by > my original objection: there is no formal meditation in the > Satipatthana-sutta. > > > Kind regards, > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31322 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's new religion - Idiosyncratism (was patience and lots more) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/15/04 5:13:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote (on space): > > H: >Please see my reply to Larry's last post on this thread. It is yet > another adventure in Idiosyncratism (my new religion)! ;-))< > .... > S: ;-);-) Are you sure your new religion is an adventure in Idiosyncratism > rather than Idiosyncrasy?? Your choice certainly sounds more novel, but I > can understand why my fellow-countrymen accuse you lot of reinventing the > language;-) > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, of course, we Yanks are strong on innovation! ;-)) The word 'idiosyncrasy' is in the language, and the other is not, but the other is of the right form to be the name of a religion - like Mormonism, Judaism, Jainism, and Buddhism. This is the natural course of extending a productive linguistic form. Oh, okay - so we bastardize the language!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ > > This reminded me that I hadn’t quite finished with another thread on terms > (in spite of any wishes of yours to the contrary;-)) > > You explained to Nina and me: > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Well, there are some differences with these terms.To be a devotee > >or > >follower of someone worth being devoted to and following is admirable. > >There is > >nothing wrong in beng a devotee or follower per se. I consider myself a > >devotee and follower of the Buddha, for example, and, if I bragged, I > >would brag > >about it! ;-) > .... > S: Hmmm, I think it’s one thing to use the terms about oneself and another > to use them for others. Of course it depends on the cittas involved, but I > would avoid using them, unless speaking to you, perhaps;-) > > Referring to oneself or someone else being a follower or a devotee of the > Dhamma would be more appropriate, I think. > > I just referred to the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta (which prompted this > post): > >’The story of the Thera Vakkali. This venerable person who fulfilled his > duties through keen faith liked to behold the Master always. The Master > admonished him saying, "What shall it profit you to see this > impure body. Who sees the Dhamma, sees me," ‘ > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I miss the relevance in this. In any case, I see nothing wrong about the word 'devotee'. ---------------------------------------------- > ..... > H: >Being a doctrinaire devotee or follower, however, is less > >worthwhile. > .... > S: Yes, again I would be very wary of using these terms for others as it > might well sound derogatory or insulting and fail the ‘agreeable to > others’ test. I say this, but I’m sure many things I say fail this test. > Again, it’s the intention whilst using them that’s important in the end. > We’re bound to make mistakes and as Christine pointed out, there are bound > to be cultural and linguistic differences too. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes, Sarah, there can be too many egg shells to walk on. ---------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: >Now, having an idiosyncratic interpretation of a teaching is > >a neutral > >matter. It is excellent if the interpretation is correct, and less so if > >not. > ..... > S: Again, I’d probably stick to my own (or your fair-game;-)) > interpretations under this banner or just to limited phrases or aspects > another uses and suggest they sound idiosyncratic to me. I’d be carefull > about referring, for example, to X’s or Y’s idiosyncratic interpretation > of the Buddha’s teaching in general (even if I thought it in this case and > might well be right), in case anyone might take offence. For example, > talking to Michael, if I had referred to Nagarjuna’s ‘idiosyncratic > interpretations’ in general, I think it would have been > counter-productive. I might have been wrong and it might have sounded > quite neutral to him too. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: It may or may not have been useful, but compared to orthodox Theravada, I think it would be correct to refer to Nagarjuna's perspective as idiosyncratic. And compared to the Brahmanism at the time of the Buddha, it would be correct to refer to the Buddha's dhamma as idiosyncratic. In fact, in that context, it is correctly referred to as heterodox. Different from the norm is not wrong, per se. And, in any case, if one thinks that a position *is* wrong, it is perfectly appropriate to say so! A number of people here frequently speak against formal meditation practice, saying that it is not only not the Dhamma, but is an exercise in "self". Often this position is proselytized, and at times people are criticized for meditating (for their own good). This is perfectly legitimate. But it is also perfectly legitimate to counter this, even quite strongly. We should all, of course, attempt to say what we say without harshness. ------------------------------------------------- > > Anyway, if we were all too careful, we’d never post. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed. That's the problem with too many egg shells. ------------------------------------------------ I get into trouble> > with my teasing - not everyone is as good-humoured as KenO. Hmmm..... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31323 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken, Just a few very quick clarifications, then I’ll rest my case and leave it to your marathon pal;-) --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > K: As usual my usual barking terrier self ;-). .... S: You said it;-) .... > k: Sure tell me if you are now telling a lie at that moment you can > attain Nibbana. Fat hope. Only after that aksuala moment then there > is a possibility. We have to clearly know the jati of the citta > since satipatthana only works in kusala citta so there will be no > enlightement during akusala citta. Though akusala cittas can be a > condition for kusala. They are exclusive! ... S: We all agree and this has been stressed already in the discussion. However, you’be been talking about situations, not about specific cittas. No disagreement on these. As I mentioned concerning vitakka, vicara and pondering,cittas change very, very quickly. “That which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night” like the monkey grabbing different branches (SN12:61). .... > k: I know the story also as I said these are exceptions. If you > read the spk notes - Buddha dont condone such actions. If you hope > that doing such actions will help one to gain enlightement, hey go > ahead and be my guest ;-). .... S: I made it clear in my post that they should never be condoned and were motivated by wrong view. I stressed that on the contrary, rt understanding will see the danger of akusala all the more. I think you may be barking up the wrong tree here;-) ... > k: Testing you limits are the one you set yourself. Since panna is > weak so there is a limit. If panna whos you as a not self, where is > the limit. .... S: The limit depends on all the accumulated kilesa. ... K: >As I said earlier to Sukin, it is up to you to choose > your own action. If you feel reading newspaper and watch TV can > increase your panna, go ahead and be my guests. Panna do come in > thin air. If they do, Buddha will not have been preaching it for 45 > years. .... S: Neither Sukin or I have even hinted that ‘reading newspaper and watch TV can increase your panna’. We’ve suggested that the so-called choice is an illusion and that panna can arise at these times, NOTE: not with akusala cittas;-) .... > K: do you know that all your knowlegde of dhamma comes also from the > ability from sanna. If sanna dont work its function, we will not be > able to distinguish between kusala and akusala. So everything you > think and do sanna has already working on it. .... S: We all agree that sanna arises with each citta. This is a little red herring you’re introducing here, Ken;-). .... > k: that is a false concept. I did not suggest you go and study the > text right now because it will be impossible because panna will not > arose effort to do it. I ask you to reflect more not ask you to be > holy. .... S: Glad we agree on the holy bit;-) .... > K: You mention about A Sujin being natural. Just her what I ask > you, if you think panna will work out of thing air, be my guest. .... S: No one has suggested it will arise without the right conditions. ... K: > Right Understanding is not just simply right understanding. Right > understanding has different level. Going to movie is not right > undestanding, .... S: No one said it was. Remember, Sukin and I are the ones who are not so interested in situations. ... K: >is a sign show that panna is not strong enough. Go and > ask her whether what I said is true or not ;-). .... S: Hey, I think you’d better come and ask her all these things yourself ;-) At the same time, you can try to persuade Sukin to stay up for some live all-night marathons. .... K: >Examples like these > are good to show living naturally and not trying to be holy but not > good for showing what is truly right understanding. .... S: No it wasn’t meant to show the latter. I merely was suggesting that we needn’t be afraid of akusala in ordinary living situations, but develop understanding and wise reflection anytime. As Nina wrote in post 26502 in the Vism thread: "Thus, we should not have an idea of this first, then that. there are many levels of morality and concentration. No question of any purity (visuddhi) without satipatthana, without vipassana." Also as RobK ended his helpful post 30844: MN 26, the Ariyapariyesana-sutta >'"This Dhamma which I have realised is indeed profound, difficult to perceive, difficult to comprehend...." Perhaps when we think we know, or think it is not so hard that is the time to be concerned. it may be mana or subtle attasanna (self) that is thinking like that.'< Must go, see you next week;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 31324 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah > Perhaps when we think we know, or think it is not so hard that is > the time to be concerned. it may be mana or subtle attasanna (self) that is thinking like that.'< k: The way you said it, everything can be a subtle self. If knowing conditions as not self is a subtle self, then I dont know how we are going to be enlighted. I am not saying I know and I am saying we must not take dhamma too lightly. If everything we leave to conditions, we are no better than animals as I said to Sukin before. There is a fine line draw being falling into the trap of conditions and understanding it. For tomorrow, death may come, who knows? Ken O 31325 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sarah, Thanks for continuing this discussion. I am much closer to understanding your position. You have explained why you believe conceptual understanding should come before experiential understanding. I'm still not clear how this experiential understanding occurs in your way of looking at things. If I conceptually understand anatta, for example, are you saying that this conceptual understanding by itself will cause me to see anatta in operation in my everyday life? And, then are you adding that any attempt to see anatta while, for instance, meditating activates the "I" and is thus to be avoided? S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any particular object? First, because the Buddha suggested it. Second because it is too difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use meditation to slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of meditation and then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. After practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are able to see, truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we are enlightened. I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one phenomena, our breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why pick an environment where there are lots of distractions? jack 31326 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, Samadhi sutta does not say as you wrote. Please re-read it up. I thoroughly dissected each and every part of your message which are full of flaw. I already linked the reference. Even though you have included that samadhi sutta is your reference, you mentioned it in the wrong way. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > Hello Htoo, and thank-you ever so much for taking so much interest in my > writing. However you happened to claim that I did not provide any canonical > support for that writing. May I point you in the direction of the Sutta that I was > discoursing upon, the Samadhi Sutta of AN IV.41, it was clearly stated in the > original message. In fact you even mentioned it in your message, so you must > have just over looked that fact. Be that as it may, I found you expressed > many thoughts, views and opinions and you threw about a whole lot of Pali terms, > which I am sure impresses the naive, however you failed once again to provide > a single canonical reference in support of your thoughts, view and opinions. > I am beginning to wonder if you have ever read any of the suttas you claim to > have read. > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31327 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path dear mike: > > Well said as usual--thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- He is great!!! He is a bombshell!!! He is a blockbuster!!!! He is a source of meritorious deeds!!! He dri-ves-me cra-zy (oh..ohhhh) on taking the Patthama at one single breath! He is doing the do!!! I am following up his Patthama series at Triplegem group with incommensurable pleasure!!! mettaya, Ícaro 31328 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and Ken H and all I think crux of the question whether there is such thing known as meditation. I think there is first lets look at <> Then in Dispeller of Deplusion - <> Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B Bodhi Translation or TB, there is part where it said that <> So in the end I dont think we can say that meditation is not taught. But the point of contention I have is what are the critera before any meditation subject. Then in Dispeller of Deplusion - there is the description in the 32 Parts in General at the Classification of Mindfullness, it said <> Then again in Visud III.28, <> Then in MN 4 Bhayabherava Sutta - the meaning of a going to a forest. What kind of activities produce concentraton, the ten wholesome precepts, the understanding of the five hindrances etc. So in the end - still the same old two words - Right Understanding ;-). Ken O 31329 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:02am Subject: Dependent Origination Hi Sarah I saw you wrote to Howard reply that feeling and contact are also vipaka. That ok. Then the questions how about those javana cittas, other vipakas etc in the sense door proccess. Then again how about the mind door process. How are they relate to Dependent Origination. Ken O 31330 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > Sukin: Yes, if one is `hoping', then it is quite unlikely that it > will happen, but is anyone talking about hope? Isn't it all about > the complexity of conditions and hence impossibility to know what > will be conditioned to arise, when? k: the issue is not when, is Today, S: And it's not about today, but now. The `when', is anything from the next moment to the end of samsara. k: the effort must be made, for tomorrow death may come, who knows? No bargain with Motarlity, can keep him and his hordes away. Two beautiful sentence that I got from Sutta on A Single Excellent Night (MN 131). S: Death is now, not tomorrow, when it comes to dhamma. Yes, beautiful Sutta, very inspiring every time you read it. Arouses chanda, but who's to say accompanied by which wholesome cetasikas and what level of panna. And who's to say, what immediately may follow. And as you say below, `natural', no need to be prompted by any idea about a `thing to do'. k: Definitely we are talking exertion of conditions and not purposedly go and be holy. When the danger of akusala is know, exertion will naturally arise. > Sukin: Yes, if there are conditions, anything can happen. k: Sukin, anything can happen is a fallacy. Because we know the equations that kusala conditions kusala, likewise vice versa. Dont leave satipatthana to mere jackpot. S: Or should I say the right result will follow only from the right cause? > > k: No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect and > > consider dhamma more. > Sukin: But doesn't this sound like a rule? ;-) k: That is not a rule, that is something Buddha tell us to do ;-) S: The Buddha said a lot of things; he directed our attention to conditionality and relations. Precisely because he knew exactly about what cause will bring what fruit and how complex the conditions of each moment are, he never prescribed the same thing for everybody. And even though the universality of dhamma meant that they are the same for all, it was a question of `dhammas'. Dhammas like; right view, sati, chanda, viriya, vitaka, saddha, and so on. All of which arise in dependence on other very complex set of dhammas. These dhammas are what constitute, what we conventionally call, listening to and considering dhamma. But the conventional activity itself, says nothing about what precise dhamma has arisen or will arise. So it is not in the `activity', but the understanding of each moment. In other words, the same thing that you say to others with regard to `formal meditation', applies here. ;-) > Sukin: To read, ponder and memorise, isn't this also conditioned? > And to do this, did panna come out of thin air? ;-) k: Yes all are conditioned but why leave all to chance ;-). If you dont even ponder dhamma or reflect them, and you expect that panna will grow. Fat hope! S: Ken, the very idea of `chance' is conditioned by self-view, and this in turn conditions a `thing to do'. Yes, if you don't ponder dhamma, then understanding will not grow. But does the idea of leaving it all to conditions necessarily mean that there is no reflection and considering of dhamma taking place? On the other hand, if there *is* the idea of `needing to ponder', will that necessarily happen? > Sukin: It is not about how rare or common, in fact it is not about > anyone at all. But about understanding conditions. k: Understanding conditions does not imply don't do anything. It implies there is no way a self can do to perceive a not-self. S: You have elsewhere compared so beautifully, the process of treading the Buddha's path, to `not adding fuel' from the very beginning. So why this now? Did I miss something? Understanding does not mean `things are not done' (conventionally speaking). But it knows that if there is no understanding, then what is done, is done with ignorance. And when there *is* understanding about conditions, then we see that only dhammas perform their specific functions (reading, considering or whatever), no `self' who does anything. K: The only way is to consider dhamma, reflect, ponder etc. Then when panna knows the danger of aksuala, effort will arise naturally. S: Yes, but only when conditions are right it will happen, in any case, there is no point being so driven by the idea. k: To sum it all up. Right Understanding (sounds fimiliar ;-) ). Because right understanding conditions right effort etc. There are I think different level of right understanding and that is a very intelligent answer to all dhamma questions. S: And as Nina says about parroting, if she can be a parrot sometimes, how more often we are? It is fine to make inferences, but we may still miss the significance of all this in this very moment. ;-) Metta, Sukin Ps: I just saw that you have been discussing on the original thread with Sarah. Maybe I should read that first and then reply. But I only just now managed to log in. Have been having computer and/or internet problems all day today. So I am sending this off. 31331 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello KenO (Howard, KenH) and all, You write: "Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B Bodhi Translation or TB, there is part where it said that <>" This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be undertaken by us all. More confused after all these years .... Lately I've been wondering that maybe the crux of the point is not whether 'meditation IS taught' - but whether 'not meditating IS NOT taught'. metta and peace. Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Howard and Ken H and all > 31332 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Chris: > You write: "Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B Bodhi > Translation or TB, there is part where it said that < Bhikkhu, gone to the forest, having folded his legs, crosswise, set > his body erect and established mindfullness in front of him.>>" > > This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the > Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be undertaken > by us all. . --------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris, take for example the Sutta Nipaata, Atthaka Chapter, Sariputta Sutta, where Buddha teaches to Sariputta and others which thoughts and practices a monk must carry on while meditating alone at the jungle. As I've said to Sarah before, I've only read the portuguese translation of it, and some biased interpretations may arise in my understanding... but it seems to me that Buddha was prescribing an activity that should be undertaken for all people... that can bear up insects that bite, crawl, pests, whims; snakes,beasts, hidden thieves, fire, hostility by pheasants, ills, loneliness, bad or no food at all, polluted water, stinks that trickle here and there, Fear of the Dark ( and The trooper, The Number of the Beast, Give your daughter to the slaughter, the clairvoyant, The Profecy, The Phanton of the Opera, Sun and steel, Killers, The sanctuary, Be Quick or be dead, Afraid to shoot strangers,Dune,Strange in a strange land, Holy Smoke, Piece of Mind, Alexander the Great, Tailgunner, Crossed-eye Mary,The evil that Men do, Rainmaker, The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, From here to eternity, Two minutes to midnight, Hallowed by thy name, the prisioner,die with your boots on,32 Acacia Avenue, the Man of the Edge, etc, etc ,etc) Damn it! What a mess is the jungle today!!! > > More confused after all these years .... Ditto!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31333 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 14-03-2004 20:14 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > The reason I asked about the reality status of a group is that groups > seem to make up our experience, they are definitely impermanent, but > it also seems they are not, "strictly speaking", objects of > consciousness. N: We can think of all those different groups, thus they are objects of citta that thinks. L: If we say an _inseparable_ group is ultimately real > because it is impermanent, then I think we have to say a _separable_ > group of groups is ultimately real because it is impermanent. N: You probably mean, take one group out among all these and view it? Insight can realize the arising and falling away of one rupa at a time. When hardness impinges on the bodysense that rupa is the object of insight, and not the other rupas of that group, since these cannot impinge on the bodysense. L: Is > there a category between concept and ultimate reality that can > accommodate "group"? N: I would like to be careful with the word concept, because it has many meanings. A term can represent what is real or what is unreal. samuuha pa~n~natti are collective concepts, these correspond to a collection or group of things. The five khandhas are groups. Each group consists of ultimate realities. But why should we try to be aware of a whole group? L: Does "sankhara" figure into this? N: The meaning of sankhara depends on the context. Sankhaara dhammas are conditioned dhammas. Sankhaarakkhandha is the khandha of formations. L: How about the > term "compact" (ghana)? N: ghana means solid, compact. Nina. 31334 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: dependent origination. Hi Howard, op 14-03-2004 22:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the > mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) appreciating your and Christine's interest. I need your help since I have no time to go to the web. What did you see there? What do you have? It would be helpful if you could post now and then a small portion. I have B.B. Mahaniddana. I am afraid I cannot give much input, just a little. My other obligations, Tiika, etc. take much time. For now: I read in the Dispeller (I, p. 162) : Herein, "as to division of the teaching", the Blessed One's teaching of the Dependent Origination is fourfold, namely, starting from the beginning or the middle up to the end and starting from the middle or the end up to the beginning. On p. 170, the Vibhanga is quoted: Herein, which is ignorance? It is unknowing regarding suffering (dukkha). We read: Nina. 31335 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Icaro, Holy Mackerel! Was that all in the Portugese translation? What WAS the translator smoking? (- or, dare I ask, the poster?) :-) :-) (Icaro, I could endure most difficulties, but I think the thing to break me would be Hostility by Pheasants! O, Lordy! that SUCH a thing could be!) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Chris: > > > > You write: "Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B > Bodhi > > Translation or TB, there is part where it said that < > Bhikkhu, gone to the forest, having folded his legs, crosswise, set > > his body erect and established mindfullness in front of him.>>" > > > > This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the > > Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be > undertaken > > by us all. > > . > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Chris, take for example the Sutta Nipaata, Atthaka Chapter, > Sariputta Sutta, where Buddha teaches to Sariputta and others which > thoughts and practices a monk must carry on while meditating alone at > the jungle. As I've said to Sarah before, I've only read the > portuguese translation of it, and some biased interpretations may > arise in my understanding... but it seems to me that Buddha was > prescribing an activity that should be undertaken for all people... > that can bear up insects that bite, crawl, pests, whims; > snakes,beasts, hidden thieves, fire, hostility by pheasants, ills, > loneliness, bad or no food at all, polluted water, stinks that > trickle here and there, Fear of the Dark ( and The trooper, The > Number of the Beast, Give your daughter to the slaughter, the > clairvoyant, The Profecy, The Phanton of the Opera, Sun and steel, > Killers, The sanctuary, Be Quick or be dead, Afraid to shoot > strangers,Dune,Strange in a strange land, Holy Smoke, Piece of Mind, > Alexander the Great, Tailgunner, Crossed-eye Mary,The evil that Men > do, Rainmaker, The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, From here to > eternity, Two minutes to midnight, Hallowed by thy name, the > prisioner,die with your boots on,32 Acacia Avenue, the Man of the > Edge, etc, etc ,etc) > Damn it! What a mess is the jungle today!!! > > > > More confused after all these years .... > > Ditto!!! > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 31336 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:49am Subject: Ignorance, Release-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.16-17 Dear Group, These two excerpts below are the last in the section of "Fetters" in Recognizing the Dhamma. (And happily we can expect Victor back from his break from the List soon). The next section is called "Shedding". The quote about ignorance is such a little quote for such crippling fetter. Most of us don't even realise we are completely enveloped by it most of the time. May we all, one day, be at the point where "there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- § 2.16. "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance." [SN XII.2] § 2.17. "Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen -- clear, limpid, and unsullied -- where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and resting.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. And as for another visible fruit of the contemplative life, higher and more sublime than this, there is none." [DN 2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31337 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/15/04 1:39:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 14-03-2004 22:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > >Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the > >mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) > appreciating your and Christine's interest. I need your help since I have no > time to go to the web. What did you see there? What do you have? It would be > helpful if you could post now and then a small portion. I have B.B. > Mahaniddana. I am afraid I cannot give much input, just a little. My other > obligations, Tiika, etc. take much time. ======================= I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. But that's a moot point, anyway, as regards Bhikkhu Bodhi's Mahanidana work. What I have downloaded (from the site that Christine provided, http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm, is a (zipped) pdf file, and I find that I am unable to copy and paste from the pdf file. But everybody who wants to participate in the discussion could download this file, and then we can refer to sections and pages and paragraphs within the document for our discussion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31338 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence dear Chris! > Holy Mackerel! Was that all in the Portugese translation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- heheheh...of course not! --------------------------------------------------------------------- What WAS > the translator smoking? (- or, dare I ask, the poster?) :-) :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Only the Concrete cocoa at office...HAHAHAHAH!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > (Icaro, I could endure most difficulties, but I think the thing to > break me would be Hostility by Pheasants! O, Lordy! that SUCH a > thing could be!) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bah!!!This typos make me SICH!!! A bunch of hostile pheasants would be a terrible event to endure for any warm-hearted Bhikkhu... but I mean hostility by peasants instead ( and not Hostility by Peanuts, when Charlie Brown decide to become a Bhikkhu, or Hostility by pea-shooters, etc....) Mettaya, Ícaro 31339 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:03am Subject: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Bhante, Thinking of you today as you start chemotherapy. Your brother monks will be supporting you I know, but please also know that many of us in far away places are also holding you with metta in mindful awareness, 'radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness'. metta and peace, Christine 31340 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 0:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hello Nina, Howard, and anyone interested in a Paticcasamupadda corner, Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: "Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the material presented here, intensive study will probably be most fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? The Texts listed are: 1. The Great Discourse on Causation: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its Commentaries, tr. Bhikkhu Bodhi, 1984, published by the Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka - which can be downloaded from the link below. 2. Section twelve of the Samyutta Nikaya -- (Grouped Discourses) which is named Nidanasamyutta (the connected discourses on causation) (some available at accesstoinsight). 3. Path of Purification, The: Visuddhimagga by Ven. Buddhaghosa ; Chapter 17 I have these three in paper copy. http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 3/15/04 1:39:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > op 14-03-2004 22:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > > > >Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the > > >mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) > > appreciating your and Christine's interest. I need your help since I have no > > time to go to the web. What did you see there? What do you have? It would be > > helpful if you could post now and then a small portion. I have B.B. > > Mahaniddana. I am afraid I cannot give much input, just a little. My other > > obligations, Tiika, etc. take much time. > ======================= > I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. But that's a moot > point, anyway, as regards Bhikkhu Bodhi's Mahanidana work. What I have > downloaded (from the site that Christine provided, > http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm, is a (zipped) pdf file, and I find that I am unable to copy and paste > from the pdf file. But everybody who wants to participate in the discussion > could download this > file, and then we can refer to sections and pages and paragraphs within the > document for our discussion. > > With metta, > Howard 31341 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Dear Chris: > Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: > > "Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the > material presented here, intensive study will probably be most > fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in > conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time > inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's clear for me that this exegethical ( from "exegesis', a greek word that means something like grammar) way or craft B. Bodhi explains to approaching sutta's matterial will vary at each situation, context, scenario, climate, etc, from the single and straightforward way to thread up or down the sutta till the reforcements and colors reality taints up our lives: Looking at the past we set up all our lives at a definite way, and the sutta is all that is printed at first time, as with as conjoined with the introductory essay ( my former Yoga instructor always said that since nobody reads the introduction of any text, so you can do it without any harm...hahahah!!!!), and at the third time you get the exegesis of a perfect portrait of a past situation. But looking forwards at the own future one need to get hand on many resources to keep clear his own ideas, something like the Gõdel Theorem demonstration of incompletude. So, beginning with this triple way to thread up sutta's interpretation, you can end with your hands full of meanings and interpretations:as a quasi-infinite production of phrases and thoughts from a single grammar! Mettaya, ícaro 31342 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 12 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as a sweet breeze comes, there carries a sweet smell . There smells the scent of Jesmin as the breeze has to pass through bushes of Jesmine. That sweet scent is a smell. It is a smell object. It is smell-sense-base. This means that the smell is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The smell is gandha. It is rupa. It is called gandha arammana or smell object. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness it is called gandha-ayatana or smell-sense-base. That sweet smell is smelled because there is nose. The nose is sense receiver. It is nose-sense-base. This means that the nose is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The nose is ghana. It is called ghana vatthu. It is called ghana pasada. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness, it is called ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There are gandhaayatana ( the sweet smell of Jesmin ) and ghanaayatana ( the nose ). The air supports the smell to reach to the nose. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise smelling-consciousness or ghanavinnana citta. There is the sweet smell of Jesmin. There is gandhaayatana or smell-sense-base. There is the nose. There is ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There arises ghanavinnana citta or smelling-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam 31343 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:29pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 12 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as a sweet breeze comes, there carries a sweet smell . There smells the scent of Jesmin as the breeze has to pass through bushes of Jesmine. That sweet scent is a smell. It is a smell object. It is smell-sense-base. This means that the smell is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The smell is gandha. It is rupa. It is called gandha arammana or smell object. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness it is called gandha-ayatana or smell-sense-base. That sweet smell is smelled because there is nose. The nose is sense receiver. It is nose-sense-base. This means that the nose is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The nose is ghana. It is called ghana vatthu. It is called ghana pasada. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness, it is called ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There are gandhaayatana ( the sweet smell of Jesmin ) and ghanaayatana ( the nose ). The air supports the smell to reach to the nose. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise smelling-consciousness or ghanavinnana citta. There is the sweet smell of Jesmin. There is gandhaayatana or smell-sense-base. There is the nose. There is ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There arises ghanavinnana citta or smelling-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31344 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Hello all An afternote to my long post yesterday about the misguided way I've been practicing. It hasn't been pleasant seeing through to the shortcomings of the way I was practicing the brahma-viharas and I spent the day yesterday in a bit of a funk. But later I was encouraged when I felt a sense of energy from staying mindful, free from concepts and I thought of this passage from Nina's Paramis book that I keep coming back to: "We do not see a result of a short moment of mindfulness, it passes and then there are many moments of ignorance. However, one moment of right mindfulness now conditions the arising again of right mindfulness later on. In that way the understanding of the charactersistics of sama and rupa which appear can become clearer. We always want to do things which bring an immediate, tangible result and we don't have enough confidence in the offectiveness of one short moment of mindfulness of what appears now." This is from the chapter on the perfection of determination. Even as I feel the foundation of the way I have been practicing being shaken up, I feel that with every moment there is a chance to start uncovering the foundation of a much more real practice. So I do feel hopeful and determined. Also, as a kind of consolation, I realized that the sense of friendliness towards people here that I developed through the practice I described will remain even if I no longer add to it intentionally by identifying sources of dosa and trying to transform them, or identifying sources of adosa and reinforcing them etc...That practice allowed me to get rid of a lot of hostility and alienation, so I don't want to belittle it completely. I'm sure many beginners could benefit from it. But now I'm on to something that gets at the roots rather than polishing the surface. That's an energizing realization. Thanks to you all. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > P: I'd like to tell you about some further insight I've had about > the way I have been practicing in the wrong way. And why I'm afraid I > can't give up this practice for the time being. 31345 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, I agree. Groups are known through inference (reason), the same as other mind object rupas such as nutriment. I further agree that groups are ultimate realities, not mere concepts, and groups of groups are also ultimate realities. So shovels and tractors and Howard's tree are all realities, not mere concepts. Thanks for the clarification. Larry 31346 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Christine, Howard and Ken H I have not finished yet. Then is satipatthana all about meditation? Another issue is satipatthana all about breathing meditation? Or Sati is also about anytime? Without looking at the commentaries and a fair view from the sutta. We have the most famous candidate - the Anapanasati Sutta - TB translation. <> I have to admit it is about meditation of the breath in a way as said in the sutta. Then we have <> Then from the (the Seven factors of Awakening) <> Can mean this can be anywhere, anytime, because one can remain focus on the body while walking, while eating (see Mahasatipatthana sutta) We have the Mindfulness Immersed in the Body <> Then we have << head hair....urine>> So again in the sutta <> Does this means we have to sit down and to it - as a meditation subject - anytime we can do this if you want to - while eating, washing yourself etc, if we based on the above principle. To be fair we can also do it cross legged - started verbally, then mentally, then color.... as described in Dispeller of Delusion and Visud about meditating as elements (if I have memory dont fail me). Lets conclude with the Mahasatipatthana, We have already breathe, body. Then we have feelings. <> We have consciouness, Mental objects. The word is live I have two conclusion, for those who wish to it during meditation - hey its up to you. But as I said earlier the prerequiste about having right conduct which is conditioned by right understanding. No understanding no gain. For those who like me without the prerequiste, that we can have feelings, mental objects etc anytime, we can do it anytime ;-). Ken O 31347 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Christine > This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the > > Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be > undertaken by us all. K: It can be describe as an activity, but we cannot say this is not an activity pertaining to meditation. Whether is it presribed, then its up to the individual, I ready give my references for the pre-requisite, its up to them to think whether it is presribed to them or not. A Sujin always said - Right Understanding - which I agreed. But we cannot say it is not an activity prescribe - it should be whether one suitability is there or not. Everyone got their own home nesting ground - if they think it is correct, so be it. But it is never lost, why, because dhamma seeds panna, sooner and later, in this live or future lives, panna will see it ;-). As long as one does not view about permanent self or nihilistic self, and one view there is life after this, this world and that world - there is always hope for everyone. It is question of when, zillions of lives later to have the right understanding - so be it ;-). Ken O 31348 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin and (Nina) > S: Ken, the very idea of `chance' is conditioned by self-view, and > this in turn conditions a `thing to do'. Yes, if you don't ponder > dhamma, then understanding will not grow. But does the idea of > leaving it all to conditions necessarily mean that there is no > reflection and considering of dhamma taking place? On the other > hand, if there *is* the idea of `needing to ponder', will that > necessarily happen? k: the idea that panna will come arise on its own without us considering dhamma it, is also another errorenous - view that it will magically produce on its own. > S: And as Nina says about parroting, if she can be a parrot > sometimes, how more often we are? It is fine to make inferences, > but we may still miss the significance of all this in this very > moment. ;-) k: Parroting has profound benefits. It is not lost because understanding arise due to such consideration of dhamma. Each time one do it, its one up for panna. Keep it up the parroting Nina and I encourage you to do it, then with this, panna will grow, then will panna come unexpectedly and naturally. Without considering dhamma and hoping it will arise from thin air - fat hope ;-). Ken O 31349 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 7:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > I agree. Groups are known through inference (reason), the same as other > mind object rupas such as nutriment. I further agree that groups are > ultimate realities, not mere concepts, and groups of groups are also > ultimate realities. So shovels and tractors and Howard's tree are all > realities, not mere concepts. Thanks for the clarification. > > Larry > ======================= Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of yours is going to sit out there in the cyberland wastes before it is picked up and burned as kindling? ;-))) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31350 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 10:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) > Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of yours is going to sit > out there in the cyberland wastes before it is picked up and burned as > kindling? ;-))) > ========================= I forgot my usual "metta" closing, and I don't want that misinterpreted. With double metta (for now plus the missed one! ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31351 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, --------------------- H: > I'm sorry, Ken, but I just don't see how you addressed the point that I made about the sutta beginning with formal meditation, > ----------------------- You originally said that the Satipatthana Sutta begins with formal meditation. I believe formal meditation plays no role in the Buddha's Middle Way and so, naturally, I disagreed with you. I `addressed the point' by quoting the Commentary to the Satipatthana-sutta where it refers to the kind of knowledge possessed by dogs and jackals. ------------------ H: > I don't know what the "dogs and jackals" business is all about, > ------------------ It is all about the `general way of knowing' and the `particular way of knowing.' I think they are the same as the `conventional way of knowing' and the `paramattha way of knowing.' When you say `formal practice' or `ongoing mindfulness,' I think you are talking about the general way of knowing. It is a way we share with dogs and jackals -- when they are walking, they know they are walking. The Commentary is at pains to explain that this is NOT the way of knowing meant in the Satipatthana-sutta. The knowing that is meant there directly sees the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (that arise while we are walking etc.). [To digress briefly: Do you agree, Howard, that the kind of knowledge we have in formal meditation is one that we share with animals? I remember an occasion when the Cooran group tried following a `satipatthana instruction manual' written by a modern- day monk. When it came to walking meditation, the instructions were to note, with regard to the left foot, "bending, bending, bending. Lifting, lifting, lifting. Moving, moving, moving. Placing, placing, placing." Then the same for the right foot and so on. That teacher was misguided: he was teaching a conventional way of knowing we share with animals: he should have read the Commentary to the Satipatthana-sutta.] ----------------- H: > and I don't see what point about ongoing mindfulness you think you have made that I would disagree with. ----------------- I did back down a little when you replied, to my first post: ---------------- >> The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing that, Ken. Note that I said that the sutta *commences* with formal meditation. >> ---------------- I took that to mean you had accepted the point about dogs and jackals knowing they were going, sitting or reclining etc., and you were reminding me that the first part of the Satipatthana sutta is not about going, sitting, reclining; it is about mindfulness of breathing (at the level of anapanasati). I conceded that point but still refused to equate jhana absorption (that takes breath as object) with formal meditation. Were you able to follow my interpretation of, "Just as a clever turner or his apprentice knows, when he is turning short, . . .?" ------------ I just don't get it. ------------ If my writing is unclear, it is not because I can't find the right words; it is because I don't really know what I'm talking about :-) Kind regards, Ken H 31352 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Htoo, I am sorry to hear you feel that my discourse on the Samadhi sutta is full of "flaws." And, since you claim you have read the sutta, and that you are so expert in it, then you shouldn't have any trouble revealing to us all where those many flaws in my argument lie. Many kind regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/15/04 2:00:55 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:18:55 -0000 From: "htootintnaing" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, Samadhi sutta does not say as you wrote. Please re-read it up. I thoroughly dissected each and every part of your message which are full of flaw. I already linked the reference. Even though you have included that samadhi sutta is your reference, you mentioned it in the wrong way. Htoo Naing >> 31353 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard, I didn't get your first post. It must have bounced. Anyway, I'm sure Nina said something about the reality of groups; and what is a tractor if not a group of rupas? There are two essential points here: Impermanence and the relationship between one and many. Impermanence is obvious, not debatable. Regarding one and many, every "one" is a many. This is called "resolution of the compact" in Vism. Group-hood is the oneness of many. To deny the reality of a group is going too far one way. To assert the independence of "one" is going too far the other way. Larry Vism. XXI 4. ...When the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements, the characyteristic of not-self becomes apparent in its true nature. -------------------------- Howard: Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 10:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of yours is going to sit out there in the cyberland wastes before it is picked up and burned as kindling? ;-))) ========================= I forgot my usual "metta" closing, and I don't want that misinterpreted. With double metta (for now plus the missed one! ;-), Howard 31354 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I saw you wrote to Howard reply that feeling and contact are also > vipaka. That ok. .... It would be easier for me to know what you're referring to if you'd quote my words. This doesn't ring a bell. Perhaps you'd repost so I know the context. ... >Then the questions how about those javana cittas, > other vipakas etc in the sense door proccess. Then again how about > the mind door process. How are they relate to Dependent Origination. .... I think I was referring to cakkhu vi~n~naa.na etc in D.O. as vipaka cittas, conditioned by formations (and other causes). As you say, always lots of qus on D.O. 32 kinds of mundane vipaka citta included with 22 mind consciousness. (Supramundane kinds not inc. because they don't pertain to the round of rebirth). I think Nina and others are going through D.O. slowly, starting with ignorance, so maybe we should wait till we get to consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) before getting into too much detail. What do you think? On our other thread, I note that you only picked up this time on the last short quote I gave from a post of RobK's, so on that happy note of general agreement, I'll let it be. Metta, Sarah ======= 31355 From: Carl Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, I am becoming afraid of you. you seem not in the least interested in the progession of knowledge. Discourse is always an interpretation of current beliefs. It is good to stand strong on current beliefs. It is foolish to remain entrenched. You seem entrenched. I'm worried about you Jeff. (of course I do not read what you write) Cael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > Hello Htoo, I am sorry to hear you feel that my discourse on the Samadhi > sutta is full of "flaws." And, since you claim you have read the sutta, and that > you are so expert in it, then you shouldn't have any trouble revealing to us > all where those many flaws in my argument lie. > > Many kind regards, > > Jeff Brooks > > In a message dated 3/15/04 2:00:55 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > writes: > > << Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:18:55 -0000 > From: "htootintnaing" > Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path > > Dear Jeff, > > Samadhi sutta does not say as you wrote. Please re-read it up. I > thoroughly dissected each and every part of your message which are > full of flaw. I already linked the reference. > > Even though you have included that samadhi sutta is your reference, > you mentioned it in the wrong way. > > Htoo Naing >> 31356 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Sarah I got no problems with the Vipaka cittas - in fact vipakas citta explain DO very clearly. It is the javanas cittas that I am more interested in. Ok Nina has covered the Ignorance part, let get to the formations. I think Visudd rather than Dispelller of Dedulsion (I think they are the same in content) will be a useful guide since most people have it. Visud XVII, 60 [(ii) Formations] Formations are the six mentioned in brief above thus. 'the three namely, formations of merit, etc and the three, namely, the bodily formation etc' (p 44); but in detail there the [first] three formations are twenty-nine volitions, that is to say, the formation of merit consisting of thirteen volitions, counting the eight sense-phere profitable volitions, that occur in virtue etc. and the five fine-material profitable volitions that occue in development [of meditation]; then the formation of demerit consisting of twelve unprofitable volitions that occur in killing living things etc; then the formation of the impertubable consisting in the four profitable volitions associated with the immaterial sphere, which occur in developement [of those meditation] As regards to the other three, the bodily formation is bodily volition, the verbal formation is verbal voliton and the mental formation is merital volition. this triad is mentioned in order to show that at the moment of accumulation of the kamma the formations of merit etc, occur in these [three] kamma doors. For the eight sense-sphere profitable and twelve unprofitable volitions, making twenty, are the bodily formation when they occur in the body door and produce bodily intimation. Those same volitions are called the verbal formation when they occur in the speech door and produce verbal intimation. But volition connected with direct-knowledge is not included here in these two cases because it is not a condition for [resultant rebirth-linking] consciousness later. And like direct- knowledge volition, so also volition connected with agitation is not included; therefore that too should not be included as a condition for [rebirth linking] consciouness. However, all these have ignorance as their condition. And all the twenty-nine volitions are the mental formations when they arise in the mind door without originating either kind of intimation. So this triad comes within the first triad and accordingly, as far as the meaning is concerned, ignorance can be understood as condition simply for formations of merit and so on. The second part is How ignorance condition volition? - akan datang [Malay Word for coming soon..] Thats all for PI - Sarah, no promises on conditinuing this DO. Ken O 31357 From: Carl Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:41pm Subject: Jeff Brooks Is it attention you seek? In previous posts on several boards you claim to be searching for a monastery to begin your holy life. How is it going? Your knowledge and intellegance are undisputed. Why is it that you seem to have no room for comprimise? Why are you having such a difficult time in finding a monastery? perhaps you need to look deep into your heart. Carl 31358 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:42pm Subject: D.O. - Avijjaa Dear Friends in the D.O. corner, Let me requote some more detail on ignorance (avijjaa) and ignorance condition (avijjaapaccayaa)in Dependent Origination. First, we read in the Sammohavinodanii (PTS, Dispeller of Delusion) about the reasons for teaching D.O.in different ways, such as from the beginning, backwards, from the middle and so on. 609 “Of these, the teaching set forth here should be understood as that stated in forward order starting from the beginning for the purpose of showing, to people susceptible to teaching who are confused about the reasons for the process [of existence], that the process [occurs] for its proper reasons,and for the purpose of showing [them] the order of arising. “But why is ignorance here stated at the beginning? How, then, is ignorance the causeless prime cause of the world like the ‘pakati’ (primal nature) of the pakativaadins? It is not causeless: for the cause of ignorance is stated thus: “With the arising of cankers there is the arising of ignorance” (M i 54; see MA i 223).” ***** In the Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, MN9 (~Naanamoli transl), it defines ignorance as the not knowing or fully understanding the Four Noble Truths. “When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance....he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma. “And what is ignorance.......? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering - this is called ignorance.” ***** Here’s a quote from Vibh-a (Dispeller of Delusion), Structure of Conditions, 642 on ignorance which I find helpful: “....Clear comprehension is understanding. It understands rightly the Dhamma of the four truths with each meaning and each reason. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to understand that quality, thus it is non-clear-comprehension (asampaja~n~na). Delusion (moha) is by deluding. Bewilderment (pamoha) is by bewildering. Confusion (sammoha) is by way of confusing. “It finds what should not be found” (avindiya.m vindati) is ignorance (avijjaa). “It engulfs, causes to sink in the process [of existence]” is the flood of ignorance (avijjogha). “It yokes to the process [of existence]” is the yoke of ignorance (avijjaayoga). Because of arising again and again through not being abandoned, it is the inherent tendency to ignorance (avijjaanusaya). “Like robbers that beset travellers on the road, it besets profitable consciousness, seizes it, plunders it” is the besetting of ignorance (avijjaapariyu.t.thaana).....” ***** cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): “.....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the aggregates, the meaning of extent in the bases, the meaning of void in the elements, the meaning of reality in the truths, the meaning of predominance in the faculties, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It makes beings hurry on in all the kinds of generation, destiny, existence, stations of consciousness, abodes of beings in the endless round of rebirths, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It hurries on *(javati)* in ‘woman’, ‘man’, etc that are non-existent (avijjamaana) in the highest sense, it does not hurry on in the existent aggregates, etc, thus it is ‘ignorance’. Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the dependent origination and dependently-originated states which are the [physical] basis and the object of eye-consciousness and so on.” ***** I look forward to reading other extracts and further discussion. Metta, Sarah ====== 31359 From: Carl Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:53pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination Holy Smokes!! Please wait a second! I surely want to follow a session on D.O. I am a straggler but i'll be there. What a fascinating subjuct. Especially the relation between Abhidhamm and dependent origination. This is pure dhamma. Thank you. Please go slow. As a Buddhapup I am loving it all. Thanks Carl --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I saw you wrote to Howard reply that feeling and contact are also > vipaka. That ok. Then the questions how about those javana cittas, > other vipakas etc in the sense door proccess. Then again how about > the mind door process. How are they relate to Dependent Origination. > > Ken O 31360 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/15/04 11:14:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > [To digress briefly: Do you agree, Howard, that the kind of > knowledge we have in formal meditation is one that we share with > animals? I remember an occasion when the Cooran group tried > following a `satipatthana instruction manual' written by a modern- > day monk. When it came to walking meditation, the instructions were > to note, with regard to the left foot, "bending, bending, bending. > Lifting, lifting, lifting. Moving, moving, moving. Placing, placing, > placing." Then the same for the right foot and so on. That teacher > was misguided: he was teaching a conventional way of knowing we > share with animals: he should have read the Commentary to the > Satipatthana-sutta.] > ============================ Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which there is a restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase in concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends to lead to absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access concentration or moment-to-moment concentration. (There also seem to be some forms of formal meditation such as the silent-illumination meditation of Ch'an which seem to permit entry to absorptive states in which investigative capacity is still active, similar to the jhanas attained by Sariputta as described in the Anupada Sutta.) Ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times, for lack of a better term, is informal meditation, and it constitutes, in my opinion, much if not most of what is discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. With regard to such informal meditation, practicing formal meditation in a regular way conditions the mind, making it better able to carry out this informal meditation in such a way that it constitutes something far different from and more effective than the mindstates of dogs and jackals. The Anapanasati Sutta, which includes more detailing of formal meditation than the Satipatthana sutta, describes itself as a means of implementing the four foundations of mindfulness. In any case, none of this meditation, whether formal or informal, and whether samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana or a mix of these, has commonality with the mental life of animals! BTW, I have no interest, myself, in the Mahasi labeling technique, nor does Bhante Gunaratana, nor does Goenka. I consider that approach to be one which permits concepts to overwhelm direct attention to what actually arises. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31361 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 11:23:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I didn't get your first post. It must have bounced. Anyway, I'm sure > Nina said something about the reality of groups; and what is a tractor > if not a group of rupas? There are two essential points here: > Impermanence and the relationship between one and many. Impermanence is > obvious, not debatable. Regarding one and many, every "one" is a many. > This is called "resolution of the compact" in Vism. Group-hood is the > oneness of many. To deny the reality of a group is going too far one > way. To assert the independence of "one" is going too far the other way. > > Larry > > Vism. XXI 4. ...When the resolution of the compact is effected by > resolution into elements, the characyteristic of not-self becomes > apparent in its true nature. > ============================== I don't think there is just "real"and "unreal". I think there are many grades and nuances to "being real", going in a variety of directions and involving a variety of parameters. With regard to groups or collections, I think the question is what is it that does the collecting! As far as I'm concerned, it is mind, in its conceptual functioning, that does the collecting. Sometimes this is done randomly, in which case the collection is a completely ungrounded mental construct. More often, as in the case of "my tree," for example, the collection reflects an actual network of relations among paramattha dhammas, and in that case, the mentally constructed collection has greater reality. But I do not consider collective entities to be ultimate actualities, for they are *not* direct, simple elements of experience - they are sankharically constructed elements of experience. My remark about your post being "picked up and burned as kindling", BTW, was a humorous way of saying that I didn't think that your smudging of the lines between conventional and ultimate would be left uncommented on for long on this list! ;-)) With metta, Howard > -------------------------- > Howard: Hi again, Larry - > In a message dated 3/15/04 10:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) > Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of > yours is going to sit out there in the cyberland wastes before it is > picked up and burned as kindling? ;-))) > ========================= > I forgot my usual "metta" > closing, and I don't want that misinterpreted. > With double metta (for now plus the missed one! ;-), Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31362 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:11pm Subject: Dependent Origination - Keeping up with Ken O.....breathless already;-) Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I got no problems with the Vipaka cittas - in fact vipakas citta > explain DO very clearly. It is the javanas cittas that I am more > interested in. Ok Nina has covered the Ignorance part, let get to > the formations. I think Visudd rather than Dispelller of Dedulsion > (I think they are the same in content) will be a useful guide since > most people have it. .... ;-) I'm going to go slowly with Nina. You may have no problems, but I'd like to explore very carefully what is in the various texts and encourage everyone to join in and contribute what they find helpful. I think Nina suggested one a week which sounds fine to me. I have lots of other threads on the go too, not to mention the rest of a householder's life to keep up with;-)I'll just follow her lead. Meanwhile, why not add more from the Vism on ignorance and make some contributions to other corners, like Brahmasamyutta, Victor's corner and the Vism corner? If you've still got surplus energy, why not help by finding useful extracts from the Satipatthana sutta and Anapanasati thread to help answer the various questions arising on breath (see Qs and comments from James & Howard)? As for guides in the D.O. corner, I suggest Christine & Howard quote from the Mahanidana and others at the link, you quote from the Vism, Nina and I add more from Dispeller or whatever we find useful. I've already used quite a lot of the Dispeller on line, so it's easy for me to requote from here and I like the translation with extra Pali details. Anyway if you'd also like to run to the end of D.O., quoting as you go, catching any good comments, then run backwards and so on a few times while we're walking slowly along, no problem;-) Maybe you can just repost your sections again when we catch up;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31363 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which there is a > restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase in > concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends to lead to > absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access concentration or > moment-to-moment concentration. (There also seem to be some forms of formal meditation such > as the silent-illumination meditation of Ch'an which seem to permit entry to > absorptive states in which investigative capacity is still active, similar to > the jhanas attained by Sariputta as described in the Anupada Sutta.) > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than my last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the absurdity! ;-)) It is hard to respond in a way that takes such positions seriously. Anyway, glad that you are around to do that. ;-)) Anyway, would you mind explaining a bit about 'silent-illumination'. You have mentioned this before and I don't know what it is. Also, where can I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you tell me the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. Thanks again. Keep up the good work! ;-)) Metta, James ps. My laptop is still being repaired. I am away from the Internet for lengthy periods. May not respond back for a while. 31364 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Keeping up with Ken O.....breathless already;-) Hi Sarah I thought since you are doing fine with them, so I leave them to you. Next time just give me a hint ;-). DO is very fun. Even just typing these two paragraphs on formations, lots of wisdom can be see. Just simple volition formations and how it create the next plane of existence is fascinating. I do not know how to describe the feelings of the incredibility of these two small paragraphs alone. Its like dancing on the table top. Its makes one appreciate the profundity of DO. Thanks mighty Buddha that Visud and Dispeller of Delusion is still around to explain the details. Actually I thought of not involving Nina because she is already tied up with the Visud thread on rupas, then she has the translation of Tendency and at times she will discuss on pali languages. Dont worry, I will get someone to help offlist if we need details or commentary explanation ;-). Ken O 31365 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Philip, I haven’t ‘spoken’ to you for a while. --- Philip wrote: > > Finding the Abdhidhamma thrilled me at first, but now it's got me a > bit edgy, because I sense all the ways I've been seeing things were > wrong understanding. Letting go of comforting concepts ain't easy, so > I probably won't let go of them right away. But rather than cling to > them blindly I will be holding on to them gingerly. .... S: Understood, but it’s only more conditioned thinking - nothing to feel nervous about. No need to decide (or self that can) whether to let go or not of any ‘comforting concepts’. As rt view grows, it takes care of the rest, ‘illuminating’ where it was previously ‘dark’ with ignorance. .... <...> > Ph: Since my knowledge is more limited than anyone else here, I am > relieved to read this! Did I say ignorant worldlings"? Is there > nothing in between "enlightened" and "ignorant worldings?" .... S: No need to compare;-) Usually we just read about worldlings and the ariyans, divided into learners- sekha and arahants. For more details on Ariyans see: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/ariya_puggala.htm Of course, amongst the worldlings, there are some divisions given too - the one developing satipatthana and on the way to becoming a sotapanna and the outsider not developing the faculties at all. Then of course, there are the stages of insight and so on. ... > I guess I thought James' statement about only the enlightened being > able to truly liberate others was a bit paradoxical -it made me > wonder what we are all doing here <...> ... S: I would say that in the end, it’s only panna and the other 8fold path factors that bring about any liberation. Like the example I gave about Vikkali yesterday - he listened at length to the Buddha, following him around everywhere, but his faculties were not balanced until the end(too much faith, too little wisdom), so many conditions are involved. You pick up ADL at the right time and the Abhidhamma just clicks into place. For someone else, it’s the reverse. .... <...> > The Ariyan who has developed direct knowedge of > realities can explain the Dhamma to other more clearly than the non- > ariyan and he can truly help other to develop the eightfold path > leading to enlightenment." <..> .... S: See comments above. I think the point is merely that we can only help or guide each other according to our limited wisdom. Naturally, someone who is an Ariyan disciple has more direct knowledge than a wordling, but of course there are many other factors involved. Outside a Buddha-sasana, a Pacceka Buddha is not able to guide others to enlightenment. In your other posts, you’ve also indicated how factors such as encouraging each other to read, sharing material on line, archives and so on ‘can play an important role in the arising of kusala in others...’. I agree with all this (otherwise of course we wouldn’t be running the list and braving the various storms in our stride (most the time;-)). The quote you gave from ‘Metta’, thinking of the well being of others, means we don’t need to think about whether we’re qualified to help and so on. When there’s metta, there’s no thought about oneself. We just do our best when there are opportunities. Btw, I loved your description of ‘Metta Land’. This is the point I was trying to make to Jack and others. We have to be so very honest and truthful to really know those cittas like the concern and care for our loved ones, for example. You mentioned you were ‘taking sobhana steroids to enhance’ your ‘performance in the loving-kindness field. Like real steroids there are harmful side effects to this practice’.;-) I’d say, just develop understanding whilst taking the steroids and the practice, the brahma viharas and the parami will then take care of themselves. Any time is OK, even when you’ve just taken a mouthful of steroids;-) [Ken O, NOTE: I’m not advising him to take steroids;-)]. Pls keep digging up from the archives and sharing quotes and comments from your various readings of ADL, Metta, Perfections and so on. Metta, Sarah ====== p.s I hope your children’s books go well. The person who might give you helpful advice (if you need any) is James - he has many talents. Also, see a selection of his posts to children, under ‘Children - letters to’ in U.P. =========== 31366 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, As we’re now going through D.O. slowly and carefully, I’m going to leave this thread and I’m sure many of the points will come up when we get to the various sections. Just briefly, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I disagree, Sarah. Avijja is erroneous, but it needs to be seen > for > what it is, discussed, and studied, because we are immersed in it. The > sense of > "I" and the sense of "mine" are erroneous but need to be discussed. .... S: Agreed. I think I was referring to the phrase ‘subjective knowing’, but now I understand what you mean by the terms and why you use them. .... >The > propensity to I-making leads to the vi~n~nana-namarupa vortex that lies > at the core > of the dependent origination of dukkha in the non-arahant, and the > unraveling > of which leads to liberation. Because of ignorance and > ignorance-corrupted > fabricating activities, experience (citta) is defiled and seemingly > split at > every moment into a knowing subject facing its opposite number, the > object of that > (nonexistent) knowing subject. .... S: OK, no problem here. .... >There is no subject without object, and > no > object without subject. This is the usual mode of experience even of > non-arahant > ariyans. .... S: You start to lose me here. Objects are experienced by cittas regardless of whether it is worldling, non-arahant ariyan or arahant experience. Visible object is always experienced by seeing consciousness. (Or we can say, there is the seeing and the visible object experienced, if you prefer). Also, remember a sotapanna has no more wrong view of self or idea of subjectivity as you’d put it. Even for worldlings, when there isn’t any wrong view arising, there’s no idea of self either. I’m sorry, but I just find this confusing. .... >Without seeing the nature of our deluded state, we are like > prisoners > who think our prison is a luxury resort. > Without the delusive subject-object split, there is just > experiential > content of sights, sounds, tastes, odors, body sensings, and mental > experiences - no subject facing these, and these not things facing a > knowing subject. > The subject versus object split is what seems to be reality to > non-arahants. ... S: I agree with the comments, see above for the last sentence. ... It > constitutes our cell door, and it is important for us to carefully > examine > this door to see what it is made of, to see how solid or flimsy it is, > and to see > whether it is really locked. > ------------------------------------------------------ S: Ok, you’ve put this well, Howard. So we’re now looking at ignorance in different ways in D.O. Look forward to anymore of your contributions on it. Metta, Sarah p.s I had meant I was usually slow in responding (KenO: - you’re most welcome to help out or contribute or take over *any* threads I’m involved in - ppl will soon tell you if they find the barking too noisy ;-)). Howard, I agree we probably have some ‘fundamental disagreements’, but at least we can discuss them which is more than I can do with most my close friends;-) =============================================== 31367 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's new religion - Idiosyncratism (was patience and lots more) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, of course, we Yanks are strong on innovation! ;-)) The word > 'idiosyncrasy' is in the language, and the other is not, but the other > is of the > right form to be the name of a religion - like Mormonism, Judaism, > Jainism, and > Buddhism. This is the natural course of extending a productive > linguistic > form. > Oh, okay - so we bastardize the language!! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------ .... S: thanks for explaining the logic of how it works anyway;-) .... > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I miss the relevance in this. In any case, I see nothing wrong > about > the word 'devotee'. > ---------------------------------------------- ... S: I was probably barking up the wrong tree here. I meant to suggest that it would be more appropriate to consider oneself or others as devotees of the teachings, of the Dhamma, than of the person, if we wish to use it. Even when one pays one's respect to the Buddha, it is the qualities rather than the person that one respects. .... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sometimes, Sarah, there can be too many egg shells to walk on. > ---------------------------------------------------- .... S: Agreed.... but learning to tip-toe a little is good exercise;-) If we don't see the egg-shells and step acidentally, no need for any remorse either;-) .... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It may or may not have been useful, but compared to orthodox > Theravada, I think it would be correct to refer to Nagarjuna's > perspective as > idiosyncratic. And compared to the Brahmanism at the time of the Buddha, > it would be > correct to refer to the Buddha's dhamma as idiosyncratic. In fact, in > that > context, it is correctly referred to as heterodox. Different from the > norm is not > wrong, per se. And, in any case, if one thinks that a position *is* > wrong, it > is perfectly appropriate to say so! > A number of people here frequently speak against formal > meditation > practice, saying that it is not only not the Dhamma, but is an exercise > in > "self". Often this position is proselytized, and at times people are > criticized for > meditating (for their own good). This is perfectly legitimate. But it is > also > perfectly legitimate to counter this, even quite strongly. We should > all, of > course, attempt to say what we say without harshness. > ------------------------------------------------- ... S: Good points;-) No argument here;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31368 From: Carl Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:20am Subject: Citta OK, Citta. What i want to know is this: how tall is a citta? how much does a citta weigh? Is a citta round, oblong or square? Can a citta move? Does a citta have a front and a back? Can this citta become the next citta? How does this citta know the information from that citta? How is information passed from this citta to that citta? It's no wonder that abhidhamma causes me headaches!! Thank god for tylenol thanks Carl 31369 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: Citta Hello Carl, You may find it helpful to check Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary - A Manual of Buddhist Terms when you find terms confusing: e.g. He gives 13 meanings for citta, and citta+ - here are a few. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm "citta: 'mind', 'consciousness', 'state of consciousness', is a synonym of mano (q.v.) and viññána (s. khandha and Tab. 1). Dhs. divides all phenomena into consciousness (citta), mental concomitants (cetasika, q.v.) and corporeality (rúpa). In adhicitta, 'higher mentality', it signifies the concentrated, quietened mind, and is one of the 3 trainings (s. sikkhá). The concentration (or intensification) of consciousness is one of the 4 roads to power (s. iddhipáda). citta-kkhana: 'consciousness-moment', is the time occupied by one single stage in the perceptual process or cognitive series (cittavíthi; s. viññána-kicca). This moment again is subdivided into the genetic (uppáda), static (thiti) and dissolving (bhanga) moment. One such moment is said in the commentaries to be of inconceivably short duration and to last not longer than the billionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning. However that may be, we ourselves know from experience that it is possible within one single second to dream of innumerable things and events. In A. I, 10 it is said: "Nothing, o monks, do I know that changes so rapidly as consciousness. Scarcely anything may be found that could be compared with this so rapidly changing consciousness." (App. khana). cittánupassaná: 'contemplation of consciousness', is one of the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v.) cittass'ekaggatá: 'one-pointedness of mind', is a synonym of concentration, or samádhi (q.v.) citta-víthi: 'process of consciousness'; s. viññána-kicca. citt'ekaggatá = cittass'ekaggatá (q.v.)." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > OK, Citta. > What i want to know is this: how tall is a citta? how much does a > citta weigh? Is a citta round, oblong or square? Can a citta move? > Does a citta have a front and a back? Can this citta become the next > citta? How does this citta know the information from that citta? How > is information passed from this citta to that citta? It's no wonder > that abhidhamma causes me headaches!! Thank god for tylenol > thanks Carl 31370 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism (through each interaction) Hello Doret, and all, I've been interested recently in thinking about how our right efforts or exertions or lack of same intersect with those of others through indiviual interactions. As we know, right effort is usually defined in terms of the following exertions: "There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions. -- SN XLIX.1 When I came across this group and the Abhidhamma, I had to rethink my understanding of this sutta, not seeing it in the self- directed sense I'd seen it in before. Rather than self-directed exertions carried out by some kind of will power, I guess these are processes that are constantly rising and falling in each of us all the time. And when we interact with others, our process of rising and falling of these factors engages with the process of others. Of course the rising and falling is conditioned, but to some small degree at least our considerate behaviour or lack of it could play a role in what factors rise or fall in the other. I think it's quite energizing to think of this engaging of the gears of rising and falling citta. We have a responsibility to each other. I've never responded well to the great vows to save all other sentient beings, but I call the above sort of thing "micro-Mahayana" Just as micro-economics analyzes individual transactions, the above considers indiviual interactions between people. I think we are always engaged Buddhists, by definition, because of the way our interactions with others can have some - albeit infinitesmal - effect on the rising and falling of kusala or akusala factors in others. I think it makes living in a crowded country like I do very interesting. Of course, this goes on between people whether they are Buddhist or not, but we Buddhists can throw at least a wee bit of panna into the mix and ease the world a micromillimeter or so in a wiser direction. Metta, Phil P.s Hi Sarah. Thanks for your kind message. I am weaning myself off the sabhanna steroids with the help of the above kind of thinking. Still far too conceptual and probably not realistic, but not as rosy-coloured as some of my brahma-viharas excesses. And I have faith that working to uproot defilements will lead to rising of a more ultimately real metta. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Friends, > > So far I have observed that engaged Buddhism is practiced only by some Zen > Buddhists. I have been told that Buddha did not advise actually entering the > social struggle, e.g. against the death penalty, against war, etc. Is it > true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because > they focus their attention only inward on liberation? > > With metta, > Doret 31371 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-view_-_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.11 Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > This is about self-view - but has a strange ending. "Then Ven. > Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & > robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was > gone for good and never returned. " I wonder why ... .... S: It reminded me of Victor setting up the study corner and then leaving mysteriously;-) ... > > Ven. Bodhi quotes the commentary: > "Neither Spk nor Spk-pt gives an explanation for his sudden > departure. He may have seen the danger in fame and honour and > preferred to dwell in complete anonymity." .... S: I think you gave the answer in your subsequent post with the extract from the Dict of Pali Proper Names: "Isidatta, being pleased with the account given of the Buddha's religion, entered the Order under Maha-Kaccana and in due course became an arahant." I didn't quite work out the chronology or whether he is already an arahant, but if so the above would not apply. Later in the extract you gave, it said: "But the same day Isidatta left Macchikasanda and never returned. Because, says buddhaghosa (AAi.210), he did not wish to stay after having been recognised." Perhaps B.Bodhi hadn't see this as it's in a different commentary. Why didn't he wish to stay? Maybe because his great wisdom was evident and he was the junior monk?? Metta, Sarah ======= 31372 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.14-15_ Hi Christine, I hope Victor sees all your good efforts in his corner;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > These two sutta excerpts are about the fetters of conceit, > restlessness, and anxiety. I wonder what Sariputta is experiencing > if he is not experiencing sorrow when he says "Still, I would have > this thought ..." Why is conceit involved in sorrow? <...> >Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of > great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed > One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of > many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for > the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine > beings.'" ... S: I read it as an expression of his respect and wisdom and a statement of fact. .... > "Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making > & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well > uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, > there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, > or despair." > > > [SN XXI.2] .... S: With the up-rooting of all the defilements (of all attachment - a general statement of this), no more conditions for any grief as I read it. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned you liked Punnika’s verses (Thig X11). She was the water-carrier who went down to the water to escape her mistresses’ beatings. After becoming an arahant she spoke the verses you quoted. I find her story very interesting. In the commentary, it mentions that under Buddha Vipassi, her virtue was perfected and also her learning in the Three Pitakas. Being so knowledgable in the Dhamma she became a teacher of it. The same happened under 5 succeeding Buddhas. “But because of her tendency to pride, she was unable to root out the defilements (kilesa).” She didn’t even become a sotapanna. As a result of this pride (kamma), in this Buddha-sasana, she was born as a slave (in Anathapindika’s household). She heard a discourse (Lion’s Roar, MN) and became a sotapanna. After converting the brahmin (as in the verses), she was given her freedom and permission to become a bhikkhuni. She soon became an arahant. =============================================== 31373 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-view_-_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.11 Hello Sarah, all, Victor took a leave of absence from dsg from 2nd of March to the 16th of March, and I agreed to help out in the study corner until he returned (not, of course, if it is in six lives time :-)). Hop up on the roof with the binoculars and start scanning the horizon - I'm sure he'll come into sight at any moment. :-) Ven. Isidatta is a puzzle - but there are many people in the Suttas that I'd like to know more about. Maybe a thread for later in the year - when we all understand the Dhamma and Dependent Origination?:-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 31374 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and James H: Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which > there is a restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase in concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends to lead to absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access concentration or moment-to-moment concentration. k: I dont think that is the case for satipatthana. I have said it can be a meditation but if you said that meditation is considered a restriction of the scope of attention - that is not tenable. Lets look at Breathing Sutta, if you see further down the sutta <> So the object has been change a number of times, from inconstancy, to dispassion to cessation to relinquishement. k: then you say an increases in concentration - If you then look at the Breathing sutta << On that occassion the monk remains focusd on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert & mindful -- subduing greed & distress>> So it is not just breathing concentration or a single object. Neither does it say there is an increase in concentration - in fact it said it is the increase of insight by looking at the word subduing greed & distress. H: Ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times, for lack of a better term, is informal meditation, and it constitutes, in my opinion, much if not most of what is discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. k: Agreed - except for the word informal. Be it formal or informal when a citta meets an object and foucsing on it and understand that the citta and object is not me or I or myself - that is meditation. H: With regard to such informal meditation, practicing formal meditation in a regular way conditions the mind, making it better able to carry out this informal meditation in such a way that it constitutes something far different from and more effective than the mindstates of dogs and jackals. k: I dont think that is supported in the sutta. No where it said one must follow this prescribed formulation as suggested by you. There is no need to be feel detach or dispassion during "formal meditation" it can be experience right here and now. Neither does it suggest that such dispassion only be enhance by initial meditation, it is the other waking hours of not meditation that are equally important. We dont need to sit down on one corner to realise the detachment of feelings or consciouness. While we are alert, we cannot say we dont want to see etc. In the same way I said Doret, we dont need to wait for a particular hour or to sit in one place to understand Dhamma. If dhamma is not understand as right here and now as you said also normal activities, then it is not of use. I dont think one can meet pleasant object when sitting down, or one can hear unpleasant words while sitting down. It is normal activities that we meet all these challenges and when panna arise, there is called satipatthana. Dhamma dont wait for us to realise, it is up to us to live it in this very moment. Ken O 31375 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Bhante, I'd like to add to Christine's note and wish you well with the tratment. Azita always reminds us to have 'courage, patience and good cheer' and I'm sure these qualities will help you at this time. With metta, Sarah p.s I understand that ginger drinks (boiled ginger water with honey added or ginger pop) are helpful for counteracting any side-effects from chemo. =========================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Bhante, > > Thinking of you today as you start chemotherapy. Your brother monks > will be supporting you I know, but please also know that many of us > in far away places are also holding you with metta in mindful > awareness, 'radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness'. 31376 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:20am Subject: Mon Visuddhimagga ces't arrivée !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally my BPS translation of Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga arrived at my favourite retailer,that was very gentle to send an E-mail to notice me!!! Complete!!! Unabridged!!! Hardcover ($$$) !!! Finally an adequate food for my illusory soul...HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! And Nooowww... the chapter 2, chapter 3, chapter 4... chapter xiv...chapter... Mettaya, Ícaro 31377 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:36am Subject: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Group, This is my understanding of the Kayagata-sati Sutta. Comments are welcome. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html (1) There are 10 methods to develop mindfulness immersed in the body. (A) Mindfulness of Breathing (B) Mindfulness of Bodily Posture (C) Being Fully Alert of Bodily Actions (D) Reflection of the Bodily Parts (E) Reflection on the 4 Great Elements within the Body (F) Reflection on Decomposed Corpses (G) Entering & Remaining in the 1st Jhana (H) Entering & Remaining in the 2nd Jhana (I) Entering & Remaining in the 3rd Jhana (J) Entering & Remaining in the 4th Jhana (2) The aim of practising these methods of developing mindfulness immersed in the body is to make the "mind gather & settle inwardly, grow unified & centered". (3) In one whose mind is gathered, settled inwardly, unified and centered, the six higher knowledges are made available. (4) All serious practitioners intend on nibbana must develop mindfulness immersed in the body, or Mara gains a foothold. (5) Attainment of the jhanas is not an absolute requisite for obtaining the six higher knowledges; it is a requisite if and only if the practioner's principal method to develop mindfulness immersed in the body is one of the 4 jhanas. (6) It is of utmost importance to make the mind unified and centered. There are no excuses for not doing 'special' meditation. All 10 methods of developing mindfulness immersed in the body are 'specially' formulated by the Buddha. No serious practitioner is excused from all 10 of them. Regards, Swee Boon 31378 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta Hi Carl Citta simply is consciousness and its function is to cognize an object. But if you really very interested in a detail analysis of Citta then you should read A Sujin - Summary of Paramatthadhamma http://www.triplegem.net/ go to hyper link abidhamma (use crtl f to find it) then click onto it and go the this hyperlink Paramatthadhamma, Summary of - Very good material to last you a few days ;-). C: What i want to know is this: how tall is a citta? how much does a citta weigh? Is a citta round, oblong or square? Can a citta move? > Does a citta have a front and a back? K: Immaterial so no physical attributes except that citta rise and cease in extremely fast - a few millions of cittas arise and falls by one snapping of a finger or flash of a lightning. (faster than light ;-) ). C: Can this citta become the next citta? k: No, because each citta will arise and cease (die - no longer appear). It can be an object of an the next citta though C: How does this citta know the information from that citta? How is information passed from this citta to that citta? k: In a few ways. a. Since a citta can be an object of another citta, so information is passed. b. So at times it is habitual or past conditioning or the technical term - latency and also accumulations. c. A cetasika known as sanna can pass the information from one citta to another. That all I can think of. May not be accurate - dont worry Sarah will correct me if I am wrong ;-). C: It's no wonder that abhidhamma causes me headaches!! k: Thats normal, a lot of us experience the same way as you when we first started and not discounting the pali words that I have to learn ;-). Sometimes I wander, was I insane when I first started it. But determination also wins in the end. Its worth it. I have never regret learning Abidhamma. It will bring lots of benefit for your happines for a long time to come and also countless lives to come because panna accumulates ;-). In fact I have not come across anyone that does not benefit from learning Abidhamma. k: Feel free to ask any qn - dont worry I think no one have broken my record of asking the most number of silly qns when I was first in DSG. Thats why they partly called me the barking terrier (not so good to tell you all my bad things here). Ken O 31379 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:14am Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Group, This is my understanding of the Kayagata-sati Sutta. Comments are welcome. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html (1) There are 10 methods to develop mindfulness immersed in the body. (2) The aim of practising these methods of developing mindfulness immersed in the body is to make the "mind gather & settle inwardly, grow unified & centered". (3) In one whose mind is gathered, settled inwardly, unified and centered, the six higher knowledges are made available. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Swee Boon, This is not a comment. But a question. What are the 6 higher knowledges? With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 31380 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, James - In a message dated 3/16/04 3:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Ken - > > > > Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which > there is a > >restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase > in > >concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends > to lead to > >absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access > concentration or > >moment-to-moment concentration. (There also seem to be some forms > of formal meditation such > >as the silent-illumination meditation of Ch'an which seem to > permit entry to > >absorptive states in which investigative capacity is still active, > similar to > >the jhanas attained by Sariputta as described in the Anupada > Sutta.) > > > > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than my > last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am > genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. I > don't know if I should laugh or cry at the absurdity! ;-)) It is > hard to respond in a way that takes such positions seriously. > Anyway, glad that you are around to do that. ;-)) Anyway, would you > mind explaining a bit about 'silent-illumination'. You have > mentioned this before and I don't know what it is. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is the Ch'an predecessor to Soto Zen "just sitting" meditation,and has recently been popularized by Ven Sheng-Yen. You might find material on it if you do a web search for him, or you can get a copy of his book "Hoofprints of the Ox". --------------------------------------------------------- Also, where can > > I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you tell me > the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is in the MN collection, if you own that. In any case, it is available at the web site http://www.vipassana.info/111-anupada-e.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- Thanks > > again. Keep up the good work! ;-)) > > Metta, James > ps. My laptop is still being repaired. I am away from the Internet > for lengthy periods. May not respond back for a while. > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31381 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/16/04 4:07:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >There is no subject without object, and > >no > >object without subject. This is the usual mode of experience even of > >non-arahant > >ariyans. > .... > S: You start to lose me here. Objects are experienced by cittas regardless > of whether it is worldling, non-arahant ariyan or arahant experience. > Visible object is always experienced by seeing consciousness. (Or we can > say, there is the seeing and the visible object experienced, if you > prefer). Also, remember a sotapanna has no more wrong view of self or idea > of subjectivity as you’d put it. Even for worldlings, when there isn’t any > wrong view arising, there’s no idea of self either. > I’m sorry, but I just find this confusing. > ================================ In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, phenomena are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no objects. There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience continued. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31382 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack >S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any particular object? jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. Second because it is too difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use meditation to slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of meditation and then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. After practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are able to see, truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we are enlightened. I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one phenomena, our breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why pick an environment where there are lots of distractions? Sarah and all, This is a follow-up to my note above. I was looking for the sutta where I think it said that true awareness of one breath results in enlightenment. I haven’ t found that yet. Catherine, you seem to be able to find anything in the suttas. Can you help? (By the way, how do you do a search for a sutta phrase or subject?) Sarah, I did find the following in the Anapanasati Sutta that answers your question. “Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it is of great fruit and great benefit. When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it fulfills the four foundations of mindfulness. When the four foundations of mindfulness are developed and cultivated, they fulfill the seven enlightenment factors. When the seven enlightenment factors are developed and cultivated, they fulfill true knowledge and deliverance.â€? I was waiting in a hospital corridor for test results on my wife early this morning. (The biopsy came out benign. Great news.) I was reading one of my favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non-Attachment and found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought distorts reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. In the West particularly, the way of thinking is used in the attempt to understand truth. This is like scratching your foot when you have your shoe on. You do not scratch the skin, but only the shoe. The intellect can touch only the symbol of truth but not the truth itself. This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the truth. But when we give up this approach it is much easier. Intellectual people find it very difficult to understand, because they try to reach the truth in their own way. They want to reach the new, but carry with them the old consciousness, which causes a reflection of the old on the new, distorting the understanding and conditioning the consciousness till further, on a deeper level, by the perversion of thought.â€? jack 31383 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:40am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 13 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Once there arises a sour taste in the mouth as remanents of food are fermented. That sourness sensed is a taste. It is a taste object. It is taste-sense-base. This means that the taste is the base for arising of tasting-consciousness. The taste is rasa. It is rupa. It is called rasa arammana or taste object. As it is a base for tasting-consciousness. it is called rasa-ayatana or taste-sense-base. That sourness is tasted because there is tongue. The tonguee is sense receiver. It is tongue-sense-base. This means that the tongue is the base for arising of tasting-consciousness. The tongue is jivha. It is called jivha vatthu. It is called jivha pasada. As it is a base for tasting-consciousness, it is called jivhaayatana or tongue-sense-base. There are rasaayatana ( the sourness in the mouth ) and jivhaayatana ( the tongue ). The saliva supports the taste to reach to the tongue ( taste buds ). As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise tasting-consciousness or jivhavinnana citta. There is the sour taste in the mouth. There is rasayatana or taste-sense-base. There is the tongue. There is jivhaayatana or tongue-sense-base. There arises jivhavinnana citta or tasting-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31384 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Venerable Bhante, My husband and I would like to join in Christine's good wishes. We are thinking of you very often, Nina. op 15-03-2004 20:03 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Dear Bhante, > > Thinking of you today as you start chemotherapy. Your brother monks > will be supporting you I know, but please also know that many of us > in far away places are also holding you with metta in mindful > awareness, 'radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness'. 31385 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance, Release-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.16-17 Dear Christine, Very good sutta. It is like the quote from the Dispeller of Delusion, but substitute dukkha for stress. This is the essence. And the clear water, like the mirror of Dhamma. Now he clearly sees all realities, he sees the noble Truths. No more murk. He has good eyesight: the eye of wisdom. Nina. op 15-03-2004 19:49 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > § 2.16. > "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the > origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not > knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This > is called ignorance." > > [SN XII.2] > > > § 2.17. > "Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen -- clear, > limpid, and unsullied -- where a man with good eyesight standing on > the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of > fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This > pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, > gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and > resting.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, > purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, > malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk > directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental > fermentations. He discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is > stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation > of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... > These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of > fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is > the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus > knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of > sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of > ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task > done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, great > king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, > more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. And as for > another visible fruit of the contemplative life, higher and more > sublime than this, there is none." [DN 2] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered > 31386 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination, ignorance. Dear friends, Just a few personal thoughts on ignorance. I need to be reminded that we are in the cycle, I tend to forget. The D.O. can help me to cope with the contrarieties of my life. Just as we read in the sutta about five things to be often contemplated (Gr S, Book of the Fives, Ch VI, §7) : old age, sickness, death, the variableness of what is near and dear, being heir to one's kamma. This is actually D.O. I find the text I quoted on ignorance helpful: <...this ignorance does not allow the knowing, seeing and penetration of the true and essential characteristics of the Truth of suffering and keeps it concealed and covered and entangled, it is therefore called "unknowing regarding suffering". At the moment of ignorance we do not know that there is ignorance, it is so treacherous, so dark, covering up the truth. It permeates my whole life. It is a latent tendency so powerful, only to be eradicated at the attainment of arahatship. It is present with each akusala citta, and conditions akusala. I read in the Dispeller of Delusion (626, p. 168): <...ignorance has the characteristic of unknowing, its nature is confusing, it manifests itself as concealing, its proximate cause is the cankers (aasava)...> When we reflect on ignorance, the greatest danger, we are reminded not to neglect the development of right understanding of any dhamma appearing now. It can condition a sense of urgency. Nina. op 15-03-2004 22:01 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > It's clear for me that this exegethical ( from "exegesis', a greek > word that means something like grammar) way or craft B. Bodhi > explains to approaching sutta's matterial will vary at each > situation, context, scenario, climate, etc, from the single and > straightforward way to thread up or down the sutta till the > reforcements and colors reality taints up our lives.... 31387 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Dear Christine, Howard and friends, Thank you for your suggestions. To answer Howard: H: I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. N:Let it depend on conditions, it can be a leaderless thread, it can lead its own life. It should be without constraint or a feeling of obligation. Now and then when you come across a text or have a thought you could perhaps post it. op 15-03-2004 21:36 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: > > "Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the > material presented here, intensive study will probably be most > fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in > conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time > inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? > N: I have B.B.'s book. This sutta is the most difficult, and it does not start with ignorance. As I quoted from the Dispeller, there are four different ways of teaching the D.O. We could first go over the links starting with ignorance, and maybe after that go into other approaches? Also, we may take longer than one week for each link, it does not matter. Nina. Ch: The Texts listed are: > > 1. The Great Discourse on Causation: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its > Commentaries, tr. Bhikkhu Bodhi, 1984, published by the Buddhist > Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka - which can be downloaded from > the link below. > > 2. Section twelve of the Samyutta Nikaya -- (Grouped Discourses) > which is named Nidanasamyutta (the connected discourses on > causation) (some available at accesstoinsight). > > 3. Path of Purification, The: Visuddhimagga by Ven. Buddhaghosa ; > Chapter 17 31388 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Vis. lightness triad. Dear Larry and friends, I want to add something to the Vis text from the Tiika: 65. These three, however, are not found apart from each other. Still their difference may be understood as follows. Lightness of matter is alteration of matter such as any light (agile) state in material instances, as in one who is healthy, any non-slowness, any manner of light transformability in them, which is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating sluggishness of matter. N: The Tiika explains about disturbance of the elements (dhaatukkhobho) as disturbance by winds (air in the belly), bile and phlegm. As quoted from ³Visuddhimagga² (VIII, 28) about the disturbance of the elements: .<.. But with the disturbance of the earth element even a strong man¹s life can be terminated if his body becomes rigid, or with the disturbance of one of the elements beginning with water if his body becomes flaccid and putrifies with a flux of the bowels, etc., or if he is consumed by a bad fever, or if he suffers a severing of his limb-joint ligatures. When one is healthy, there are conditions for lightness, plasticity and wieldiness of body.> The Tiika mentions as supporting conditions that obstruct disturbances: As we learnt these three factors (all three paramattha dhammas) originate the lightness triad. As we read in the Expositor: <... Thus ascetics say, ³Today we have agreeable food... today we have suitable weather... today our mind is one-pointed, our body is light, plastic and wieldy.²> Note the word today: these three factors do not always originate the lightness triad. Nobody can choose whether they operate or not. But when they do they are a condition for change. They are rúpas of changeability. That is why it is said in the Vis. text: The last sentence of the Tiika states: N: This is understandable when we consider, for example, the bases produced by kamma. Kamma is a cause of the past and keeps on producing the bases at each of the three submoments of citta. Note what is quoted above: today, etc. about the three other factors of nutrition, temperature and citta. The lightness triad conditions changes temporarily, not all the time. Nina. Nina. 31389 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/16/04 6:48:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard and James > > > H: Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which > >there is a restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly > an increase in concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the > meditation tends to lead to absorption; if it is less so, it tends > to either access concentration or moment-to-moment concentration. > > k: I dont think that is the case for satipatthana. I have said it > can be a meditation but if you said that meditation is considered a > restriction of the scope of attention - that is not tenable. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: And I didn't say it. Please reread what I did say - with regard to formal and informal meditation - a bit more carefully. ------------------------------------------------ Lets> > look at Breathing Sutta, if you see further down the sutta < trains himself to breathe in focusing in inconstancy>> So the object > has been change a number of times, from inconstancy, to dispassion to > cessation to relinquishement. > > k: then you say an increases in concentration - If you then look at > the Breathing sutta < the body in &of itself -- ardent, alert &mindful -- subduing greed > &distress>> So it is not just breathing concentration or a single > object. Neither does it say there is an increase in concentration - > in fact it said it is the increase of insight by looking at the word > subduing greed &distress. > > H: Ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times, for lack of a better > term, is informal meditation, and it constitutes, in my opinion, > much if not most of what is discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. > > k: Agreed - except for the word informal. Be it formal or informal > when a citta meets an object and foucsing on it and understand that > the citta and object is not me or I or myself - that is meditation. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'll have to enter that in my dictionary of special definitions! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ > > H: With regard to such informal meditation, practicing formal > meditation in a regular way conditions the mind, making it better > able to carry out this informal meditation in such a way that it > constitutes something far different from and more effective than the > mindstates of dogs and jackals. > > k: I dont think that is supported in the sutta. No where it said > one must follow this prescribed formulation as suggested by you. > There is no need to be feel detach or dispassion during "formal > meditation" it can be experience right here and now. Neither does > it suggest that such dispassion only be enhance by initial > meditation, it is the other waking hours of not meditation that are > equally important. We dont need to sit down on one corner to realise > the detachment of feelings or consciouness. While we are alert, we > cannot say we dont want to see etc. In the same way I said Doret, we > dont need to wait for a particular hour or to sit in one place to > understand Dhamma. If dhamma is not understand as right here and now > as you said also normal activities, then it is not of use. I dont > think one can meet pleasant object when sitting down, or one can hear > unpleasant words while sitting down. It is normal activities that we > meet all these challenges and when panna arise, there is called > satipatthana. Dhamma dont wait for us to realise, it is up to us to > live it in this very moment. > > > Ken O > ============================= Ken, putting it simply: We are not close on this matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31390 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/16/04 1:20:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Christine, Howard and friends, > Thank you for your suggestions. > To answer Howard: > H: I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. > N:Let it depend on conditions, it can be a leaderless thread, it can lead > its own life. It should be without constraint or a feeling of obligation. > Now and then when you come across a text or have a thought you could perhaps > post it. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That sounds very good to me, Nina. There is one more thing that might be helpful: If anyone has a full version of Adobe Acrobat - I only have the free 6.0 Reader - then that person would have the capability of copying and pasting from the PDF of Bhikkhu Bodhi's paper. Posting portions of that paper would be helpful to the discussion. Or, if anyone here has software to convert the PDF paper to MS word, then perhaps those who wish to participate in the D.O. discussion could share the Word document. --------------------------------------------- > op 15-03-2004 21:36 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > >Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: > > > >"Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the > >material presented here, intensive study will probably be most > >fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in > >conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time > >inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." > > > >Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? > > > N: I have B.B.'s book. This sutta is the most difficult, and it does not > start with ignorance. As I quoted from the Dispeller, there are four > different ways of teaching the D.O. We could first go over the links > starting with ignorance, and maybe after that go into other approaches? > Also, we may take longer than one week for each link, it does not matter. > Nina. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31391 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard, H: "I do not consider collective entities to be ultimate actualities, for they are *not* direct, simple elements of experience - they are sankharically constructed elements of experience." L: How simple is a simple element? Every dhamma has numerous characteristics and it is questionable to me whether a single element of hardness, for example, can be experienced as such. Experience is collective; as you say "sankharically constructed". But there is no "self" who makes it. Maybe we could say desire makes it. The derived rupas are said to be derived by desire. Not sure what that means. Larry 31392 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/16/04 7:28:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > H: "I do not consider collective entities to be ultimate actualities, > for they are *not* direct, simple elements of experience - they are > sankharically constructed elements of experience." > > L: How simple is a simple element? Every dhamma has numerous > characteristics and it is questionable to me whether a single element of > hardness, for example, can be experienced as such. Experience is > collective; as you say "sankharically constructed". But there is no > "self" who makes it. Maybe we could say desire makes it. The derived > rupas are said to be derived by desire. Not sure what that means. > > Larry > ========================= I see a clear difference in type and directness between felt hardness, for example, which is a direct element of experience, and a *supposedly* experienced tree, the latter, in fact, not being an element of experience at all, with only a mental "tree-construct," sankharically formed from direct experiences, being an actual element of experience. There is no tree that is ever seen - only sights are seen, but a tree-construct *is* an element of experience via the mind door. The thing is, however, we seem to think that there is an external, physical object called a tree, and that it presents itself to us via the eye door. That is a mental magic trick, and nothing more. And for that matter, more subtly, I see a clear difference in type and directness even between felt hardness, on the one hand, and the mind-constructed "hardness" that follows immediately after the felt hardness as the result of operations of sa~n~na and sankhara. Even such a mental construct as "hardness" is not the same as felt hardness, itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31393 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello all I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.") Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed internally" just another phrase that means the same thing as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to this beginner, anyways. I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the translation available at access to insight. Thanks in advance for any guidance here. Metta, Phil 31394 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jeff Brooks Hello Carl, On the surface this list seems to pose as an intellectual community in search of a deeper understanding of the dhamma. However when I provide canonical support for my thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs I am personally attacked and challenged, not my thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs. Why do you believe that I have no room for compromise? I ask only that one provide some form of reference to support their thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs if they are expressing those beliefs to refute my argument. In any academic setting that would be expected. Why do you think that if I provide a canonical reference for my thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs that it is some kind of attention seeking device? On my search for ordination I am continuing to receive many recommendations and a few offers. I am presently evaluating those offers and recommendations, and furthering a dialog with the people and institutions making those offers to see if it would be wise for me to ordain with them. Ordination is likely to require a great risk on my part in having to give up everything and move. I believe it is reasonable to be somewhat pragmatic regarding taking that risk. Don't you think? I have applied to the Bhavana Society for their ordination program and my request has been rejected. If you were seeking a graduate program in Buddhist studies how long do you think you would spend to decide what institution to study at? Do you think every institution is going to accept your application? Don't you think you might receive a few rejections? Do you think a rejection is proof of any kind that your interests or search is invalid? Would you simply keep searching and applying until you found an institution and a preceptor who shared your particular interests? I would hope so. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/16/04 1:42:56 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:41:45 -0000 From: "Carl" Subject: Jeff Brooks Is it attention you seek? In previous posts on several boards you claim to be searching for a monastery to begin your holy life. How is it going? Your knowledge and intellegance are undisputed. Why is it that you seem to have no room for comprimise? Why are you having such a difficult time in finding a monastery? perhaps you need to look deep into your heart. Carl >> 31395 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Cael, I am so sorry that you have become "afraid" of me, because it seems to you that I have become "entrenched." I am only attempting to express my thoughts, views, opinions and experiences regarding the dhamma backed up by canonical references. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/16/04 1:42:56 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:19:03 -0000 From: "Carl" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, I am becoming afraid of you. you seem not in the least interested in the progession of knowledge. Discourse is always an interpretation of current beliefs. It is good to stand strong on current beliefs. It is foolish to remain entrenched. You seem entrenched. I'm worried about you Jeff. (of course I do not read what you write) Cael >> 31396 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard, Forget about the name. Is there a complex external physical object? Larry ---------------- Howard: "...There is no tree that is ever seen - only sights are seen, but a tree-construct *is* an element of experience via the mind door. The thing is, however, we seem to think that there is an external, physical object called a tree, and that it presents itself to us via the eye door..." 31397 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Ken O, Here are some thoughts on ignorance and javana cittas. If we say ignorance is perception (sanna), what is perception? Perception in the cognitive series is threefold: determining consciousness, registration consciousness, and accumulations. Registration "marks the object", i.e. registers the javana cittas. Determining retrieves this identity from accumulations (memory). Ignorance is the memory of previous javana cittas plus, most importantly, the feeling associated with them. This memory, as determining consciousness, conditions the next javana series (sankhara). Since panna (wisdom) is the opposite of ignorance, then in some sense panna is the opposite of sanna (perception). How so? Perhaps a clue is in the nature of memory. In memory there is latent awareness of impermanence. We only remember what is past. Larry 31398 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination Dear Ken O, thank you very much. But I like to go more slowly, there is so much to think over. If you don't mind? I keep what you have given now and react later on. As to Vis, later on we will come to Ch XVII with Tiika and all, with Larry. Pelan, pelan! Nina. op 16-03-2004 06:39 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: Visud XVII, 60 > [(ii) Formations] > > Formations are the six mentioned in brief above thus. 'the three > namely, formations of merit, etc and the three, namely, the bodily > formation etc' (p 44); 31399 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Keeping up with Ken O.....breathless already;-) Dear Ken O, don't worry. I do not feel forced or constrained, and I like to give just a little thought now and then, not long typing. I also like to relate it all to my life now. Very necessary for me! Iam putting off Latent tendencies, because now I am writing my Thailand Impressions. Nina. op 16-03-2004 09:29 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Actually I thought of not involving Nina because she is already tied > up with the Visud thread on rupas, then she has the translation of > Tendency and at times she will discuss on pali languages. 31400 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/16/04 10:09:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Forget about the name. Is there a complex external physical object? > > Larry > ============================= There is not - at least not in my belief system. But even if there were, there would be know way of knowing it, for all that is experienced is experience itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31401 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:07pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 3/16/04 3:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is the Ch'an predecessor to Soto Zen "just sitting" meditation,and > has recently been popularized by Ven Sheng-Yen. You might find material on it > if you do a web search for him, or you can get a copy of his book "Hoofprints > of the Ox". > --------------------------------------------------------- James: Thanks for the info. I was hoping for one of your beautiful explanations but I guess I have no such luck. ;-)) I don't have that book and I doubt that I can get it here in Cairo. I did a search on Ven Sheng-Ven and I found a lot about his biography but nothing about his method. Oh well. I will search again later when I have more time. My computer is still being repaired! Lord help me! ;-)) > Also, where can > > > I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you tell me > > the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is in the MN collection, if you own that. In any case, it is > available at the web site http://www.vipassana.info/111-anupada- e.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------- James: Thanks. Yea I do own that collection but I haven't read the whole thing yet. I am slowing working my way through all the Nikayas. From this online version it states that Sariputta is the only one who has been able to do this method: combining jhana and vipassana: "Bhikkhus, saying it rightly, it is Saariputta that has mastered and completed the noble ones' virtues, mastered and completed the noble ones' concentration, mastered and completed the noble ones' perception, mastered and completed the noble ones' release. Sayng it rightly it is only Saariputta that has mastered and completed the noble ones' virtues, concentration, wisdom and release." Hmmm...if only Sariputta has been able to do this method I don't hold out too much faith that I might be able to also! ;-)) But, thanks for the information. Again, I think that this sutta does clearly show that there are two methods of meditation and that only the exceptionally rare individual is able to combine them with any success. Metta, James 31402 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And I didn't say it. Please reread what I did say - with regard to formal and informal meditation - a bit more carefully. > ------------------------------------------------ k: Howard you said that "formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which there is a restriction of the scope of attention>> I thought this is what you meant. If not please kindly elaborate on what you meant. Call it soup for the soul ;-). H: Ken, putting it simply: We are not close on this matter. k: the question is since one can do it anytime, why a need to do it a more *formal*. Soemtimes I wonder, is it because we want to gain something out of it, isn't this clinging, or we want to experience something out of it, to feel comfortable, to feel calm, to feel more attuned, isnt this also clinging. To me isn't it a waste, that the rest of our waking hours we are not doing it. If one can transfer our meditaion to everyday life, isn't it wonderful. Ken O 31403 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That sounds very good to me, Nina. There is one more thing that might > be helpful: If anyone has a full version of Adobe Acrobat - I only have the > free 6.0 Reader - then that person would have the capability of copying and > pasting from the PDF of Bhikkhu Bodhi's paper. Posting portions of that paper > would be helpful to the discussion. Or, if anyone here has software to convert > the PDF paper to MS word, then perhaps those who wish to participate in the D.O. > discussion could share the Word document. > --------------------------------------------- > James: I have the full version of Adobe Acrobat but PDF documents cannot be copied and pasted into either HTML or Word. PDF documents are somewhat like a 'picture' of the document and they don't contain the data underlying the words for direct coversion. Text documents can be 'converted' into PDF but not the other way around. PDF documents are created because they don't contain as much data as text documents and are therefore easier to transfer over the Internet and by e-mail. Metta, James 31404 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Larry Hmmm I dont think ignorance is perception, they perform different functions. Ignorance is not memory. We can say conventional perception is partly perform memory as it marks an object. Perception can be also good. It is ignorance that blind us that made us perceive in such a way and not perception that make us blind. In the case of DO, it is ignorance, latency and accumulations that affect the perception of a javana citta. It is also these three musketeers in the DO, with the arisen of a citta that takes on an object that make us feel in or that in the javana process. Whether perception play a role, in the way of conventional human logic we can say perception (together with accumlations and latency) that condition our feelings in reaction to such and such situation. Conversely, feeling can also makes in human logic also make us perceive this way or tha way. Hence to me, I have not read that perception condition feelings because when all the cetasikas arise together with a citta, it is like all spices flavour mixed up in a soup. Difficult to say which is the condition factor of which. However definitely it is contact that is the leader of the cetasikas that meet the object. Feeling can also be very prominent when it becomes the faculty condition of dhamma. Other than that, I leave it as ignorance...contact condition either feelings or perceptions. Ken o 31405 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi James and Howard (and Philip), James wrote to Howard: ------------ > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than my last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. > ----------------------- If anything I write is contrary to the Theravada texts – and I'm sure it is quite often -- then please tell me, I would like to know. But if it is wrong, only according to later teachings (including your ESP), I really don't care -- life is too short to be learning alternative teachings. ---------------------- J: > I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the absurdity! ;-)) It is hard to respond in a way that takes such positions seriously. > --------------------- You may be angry about my `dogs and jackals' post. I was careful not to label some of us more `animal-like' than others. That would be absurd and totally inconsistent with the commentary I was quoting. As I understand, ordinary human consciousness is no different from animal consciousness: Only high degrees of kusala, such as jhana or satipatthana, are considered superior to the consciousness of `dogs and jackals.' (Corrections welcome.) ------------------------ J: > Anyway, glad that you are around to do that. ;-)) Thanks again. Keep up the good work! ;-)) -------------- The `good work' includes countering any claim that `no-self' means `no control' doesn't it? I can't criticise; I feel compelled to counter the opposite view. (Philip, I was the self-appointed dsg policeman long before you arrived:-) ) I shouldn't become angry when you ridicule the Commentaries. I shouldn't become angry at anything anyone says or does. We are the way we are by conditions (there is no control). You are not going to become enlightened in this lifetime -- nor am I. Nor will any of us have the amount of `dust in our eyes' greatly reduced. It doesn't work that way: right understanding is accumulated in the same way an adze handle is worn away -- imperceptibly. The next time we are born as humans, we will be just as we were this time around – and the next time, and the next time . . .. We will learn the same lessons (hopefully), only to forget them every time we grow old and die. The beauty of it all is that there is no `you, me, us or them,' there are only dhammas; and all dhammas are anicca, without self. Kind regards, Ken H 31406 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:49am Subject: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Dear Group, In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the Introduction - INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising In the Theravada Buddhist tradition the Mahaanidaana Sutta is regarded as one of the profoundest discourses spoken by the Buddha. Its pri?cipal theme is paticcasamuppaada, "dependent arising," and that immediately alerts us to its importance. For the Pali Canon makes it quite plain that dependent arising is not merely one strand of doctrine among others, but the radical insight at the heart of the Buddha's teaching, the insight from which everything else unfolds. For the Buddha himself, during his period of struggle for enlightenment, dependent arising came as the astonishing, eye-opening discovery that ended his groping in the dark: `"Arising, arising' - thus bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and light" (S.XII,65; ii,105). A series of suttas shows the same discovery to be the essence of each Buddha's attainment of enlightenment (S.XIII, 4-10). Once enlightened, the mission of a Tathaagata, a Perfect One, is to proclaim dependent arising to the world (S.XII,20; ii, 25-26). So often does the Buddha do this, in discourse after discourse, that dependent arising soon becomes regarded as the quintessence of his teaching. When the arahat Assaji was asked to state the Master's message as concisely as possible, he said it was the doctrine that phenomena arise and cease through causes (Vin. I, 40). With a single sentence the Buddha dispels all doubt about the correctness of this summary: "He who sees dependent arising sees the Dhamma, he who sees the Dhamma sees dependent arising" (M.28; I, 191). The reason dependent arising is assigned so much weight lies in two essential contributions it makes to the teaching. First, it provides the teaching with its primary ontological principle, its key for understanding the nature of being. Second, it provides the framework that guides its programme for deliverance, a causal account of the origination and cessation of suffering. These two contributions, though separable in thought, come together in the thesis that makes the Buddha's teaching a "doctrine of awakening": that suffering ultimately arises due to ignorance about the nature of being and ceases through wisdom, direct understanding of the nature of being. The ontological principle contributed by dependent arising is, as its name suggests, the arising of phenomena in dependence on conditions. At a stroke this principle disposes of the notion of static self- contained entities and shows that the "texture" of being is through and through relational. Whatever comes into being originates through conditions, stands with the support of conditions, and ceases when its conditions cease. But dependent arising teaches something more rigorous than a simple assertion of general conditionality. What it teaches is *specific conditionality* (idappaccayataa), the arising of phenomena in dependence on specific conditions. This is an important point often overlooked in standard accounts of the doctrine. Specific conditionality correlates phenomena in so far as they belong to types. It holds that phenomena of a given type originate only through the conditions appropriate to that type, never in the absence of those conditions, never through the conditions appropriate to some other type. Thus dependent arising, as a teaching of specific conditionality, deals primarily with structures. It treats phenomena, not in terms of their isolated connections, but in terms of their patterns - recurrent patterns that exhibit the invariableness of law. "Bhikkhus, what is dependent arising? "With birth as condition aging and death come to be" - whether Tathaagatas arise or not, that element stands, that structuredness of phenomena, that fixed determination of phenomena, specific conditionality. That a Tathaagata awakens to and comprehends. Having awakened to it and comprehended it, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, reveals it, analyzes it, and clarifies it, saying: "See, bhikkhus, with birth as condition aging and death come to be." The reality in that, the undelusiveness, invariability, specific conditionality - this, bhikkhus, is called dependent arising." (S.XII,20; ii,25-6) The basic formula for dependent arising appears in the suttas countless times: "When there is this, that comes to be: with the arising of this, that arises. When this is absent, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases." [1] This gives the principle in the abstract, stripped of any reference to a content; But the Buddha is not interested in abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all-important. His teaching is concerned with a problem - the problem of suffering (dukkha) - and with the task of bringing suffering to an end. Dependent arising is introduced because it is relevant to these concerns, indeed not merely relevant but indispensable. It defines the framework needed to understand the problem and also indicates the approach that must be taken if that problem is to be resolved. The suffering with which the Buddha's teaching is concerned has a far deeper meaning than personal unhappiness, discontent, or psychological stress. It includes these, but it goes beyond. The problem in its fullest measure is existential suffering, the suffering of bondage to the round of repeated birth and death. The round, the Buddha teaches, has been turning without beginning, and as long as it turns it inevitably brings "aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair." To gain deliverance from suffering, therefore, requires more than relief from its transient individual manifestations. It requires nothing short of total liberation from the round." [1] Imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti; imass' uppaadaa ida.m uppajjati. Imasmi.m asati ida.m na hoti; imassa nirodhaa ida.m nirujjhati (e.g. S.XII, 21; ii,28) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 31407 From: Eznir Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Dear Howard & Sarah My comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > > ================================ > In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, phenomena > are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no objects. > There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of > subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience continued. > > With metta, > Howard ========================= eznir: An intuition comes close to describing this "momentary lose of sense of self". eznir 31408 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Dear Group, Very often when discussing on dsg the joyful and sad happenings in daily life, someone will advise that we should not get caught up in "the stories" - that there are only dhammas arising and falling away. But in this excerpt, BB says "the Buddha is not interested in abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all- important." What is 'content' if it is not the stories, populated by things, people, animals, experiences? Is this a contradiction, or am I on the wrong track? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its > Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some > parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the > Introduction - > > INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising 31409 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James and Howard (and Philip), > > James wrote to Howard: > ------------ > > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than > my last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am > genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. > > ----------------------- > > If anything I write is contrary to the Theravada texts – and I'm > sure it is quite often -- then please tell me, I would like to > know. But if it is wrong, only according to later teachings > (including your ESP), I really don't care -- life is too short to be > learning alternative teachings. James: Huh?? I wasn't even writing about you; I was writing about Sarah asking why paying attention to the breath is important. I thought that was a really crazy question. It is like there is some sort of tunnel vision going on here. What does my ESP have to do with anything?? I think I do have some ESP ability, but so what. It doesn't mean a thing...not a single thing. ESP isn't wisdom. I didn't have anything to say about your post because you were quoting a commentary. If the commentary says that mindfulness of walking is the same with animals, okay. I don't have a problem with that. We are not really that far from animals...in a biological, evolutionary, or Buddhist sense. I think you took my post wrong and have gone on the attack here. You wouldn't have done that if you had ESP like I do!! LOL! Metta, James 31410 From: Eznir Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: patience Dear Nina, Please see below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: This made me think of my father who grumbles and complains on account of > what is in his imagination. As I mentioned here already, a friend spoke > about her father who was actually , always disparaging. But > her mother said: your father is your teacher, do not forget. > And can you ad about positive feelings? You mean clinging? I remember now a > sutta: lobha is our teacher, we always follow what achariya says. Or: it is > one's coresident pupil, it always follows us, wherever we go. > We need more examples from daily life, Dhamma is not theory. On another list > I had made an interpretation of a Pali text which was approved of. I was > mighty pleased, but I could not help laughing at my conceit and lobha. In > mockery I patted my back. I know, also laughing is lobha. Because of > listening one can notice it. Formerly I would not even know about it. But > this is interesting: see how piti (joy, enthusiasm or zest) and somanassa > (pleasant feeling) surge up so strongly and even before we realize it. ******************* eznir: Not only clinging; any positive feeling. Particularly this polarization of our views to either of these two directions positive and negative. ******************* > Uncontrollably. But I have to use this term carefully. I know, sati and > panna can do their work. As Rob K wrote: < as an object of insight any > moment is perfect because each moment is conditioned to be that way.> ******************** eznir: Each moment impels one to do something about our object of consciousness at that moment. The earlier examples of someone scolding or complementing, is gross in nature. It obviously evokes the consciousness to say or do something in return. As ones mindfulness improves one becomes more and more sensitive to things less and less gross in nature. Here one has to remain unbiased and let sati and panna do the work as you say. > > I heard on tape that dosa can harm others, it is more harmful, and that > lobha may not be so harmful to others but harder to eradicate. I could not > trace the sutta. > Nina. eznir 31411 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Swee Boon According to Dispeller of Delusion, foulness of the body and 32 parts of the body, since the subject is gross, one can only attain it to 1st jhana level or the stream entrant level. As for method of the elements [actually this can be a continuation subject after the 32 parts see Visud on Nutriments and Elements Chapter XI], again in Dispeller of Delusion para 1171 - << then as he lays of the material aggregate, the immaterial aggregate become evident to him though the medium of the sense bases and doors. The material and immaterial, being laid hold of thus, are the pentad of aggregates, the pentad of aggregates is te twelve sense bases; the twelve sens bases become the 18 elements and so by mean of the aggregates, bases and elements, by making them into two parts like one who split a twin palm, he defines material-immateriality. After inquiring 'this mentality - materiality is not produced without causes, without conditions; it is produced with causes, with conditions. But what is its caused; what is its conditions?' he defines its condition thus: 'With ignorance as condition, craving as condition, kamma as condition, nutriment as condition' and he removes doubt about the three periods of time [of time thus]: 'In the past also they are conditions and states conditionaly arisen and in the future, and now also, they are conditions and states conditionally arisen. Beyond that there is no being or person. It is only a mere heap of formations. But this insight which discerns the formations is called "fulled understanding of the known" A bhikkhu who is established in the discernment of formations thus, has sent down his roots into the Ten-Powered One's dispensation and has obtained a foothold. He is a Lesser Stream Enterer (cula - sotapanna) of assured identity. But on obtaining such climate, person, food and hearing the Law as are suitable, in one sitting, in one sumpreme session, he attains Arahatship by applying the three characteristics and comprehending the formations with succession of insight. This is the conclusion, as far as Arahatship, for the bhikkhu who does his laying to heart by way of elements>> Visud also explain mental - material also clearly - under purification of view Chapter XVIII then on para 1384 < Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi Christine Content (in this case I call it dhamma content) in Buddhist context is usually about cittas, cetasikas, six sense, bases, elements, aggregates, the three characterisitcs etc. Formula are those like DO or sense process or mind door process. other contents like conventional description like animals, things etc are used for the sake of simplicity of teaching and also metaphor like animals, things are used for the sake of explaining formuales of dhamma content. There is no contradiction as far as I am know. Others may have other views ;-). Ken O 31413 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta: To Nina Dear Phil, Nina and all How are you? Phil asked: "I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.")" The Pali term in the first quote is "Pajaanaati" and simply means "to know". The knowers of abhidhamma regard it as the action of the mind. On the other hand, the Pali term in the second quote is "Sampajaanakaarii" where "sampajaana" as a synonym of "paññaa" means wisdom. THus, sampajaanakaarii would mean someone who is wise / prudent. Phil was also interested to know the significance of the following quote: "Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..."" The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati". We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! The main verb under consideration is "anupassii" from "Kaayaanupassii". Thus, "anupassii" means "someone who observes" and the verb "anupassati, to observe" is the action of the mind. In passing, practitioners who observe their bodily postures are pure practitioners of vipassanaa (see the Pali term "Kaayaanupassii"), and can attain near-jhaana samaadhi (upacaarasamaadhi) at the maximum which is adequate for attainment of any path insight (maggañaa.na) from Sotaapanna level through to the Arahant level. Near-jhaana samaadhi is just before the First Ruupaavacara Jhaana, and thus we know for sure that the Buddha in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam clearly taught how to attain the Arahant awakening without first having Samatha Jhaanas (Ruupaavacara Jhaanas). It is a pity that some people persist in their misguided narrow views on the roles of worldly Jhaanas (Samatha Jhaanas) without making genuine efforts to understand Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as the Buddha's teachings on purely Vipassanaa practice. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hello all I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.") Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed internally" just another phrase that means the same thing as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to this beginner, anyways. I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the translation available at access to insight. Thanks in advance for any guidance here. Metta, Phil 31414 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack > jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. k: The Buddha also suggested a lot of other means, Like eye and form and eye consciouness arise. J: Second because it is too difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. k: If you really want to learn Breathing sutta - you should go to a seluded place. In the Visud, this meditation --- is not easy to develop wihtout leaving the neighbourhood of villages, which resound with the noises of women, men, elephants, horses (should be vehicle now ;-)) etc. However got the requisite first, one must be of virtue ( I am not saying you are not) before doing it. I introduce you a method, one does not need to fulfil the prerequiste or find a seluded place. I dont think we can dont see objects. Anatta even though intellectually understand, can also be known right here and right now. When we think we are distracted by daily events, it is because we did not applied what we learn from the suttas. Even walking to the toilet when we take a break from work or eating during lunch are all moments of practising the six senses. Even at home, while talking to your family members, while being pester by them are all moments of practise. For eg, when sometimes when panna arise, I notice that my daughter are just visible rupas, hardness and sound, or not mine, other times it is full of attachment. Its ok, panna grows on its own pace, no hurry. These are little practise which i called meditation. It is not hard, it is because we lack doing it here and now (ie consider dhamma) ;-) Buddha promote restraint of the six sense that is not just focusing on meditation. Buddha promote it because he knows as long as one is alert, there is no escape from it. Do you prefer the dispassion to be experience right here and now or dipassion to be experience latter. Why waste all that waking moments? J: Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it is of great fruit and great benefit. When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it fulfills the four foundations of mindfulness. k: Mindfulness is not just confine to Breathing also. It can be any five aggregates, so any mindfullness of the five aggregates are of great fruits. For eg See Mindfullness of the Body sutta. J: I was reading one of my favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non-Attachment and found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought > distorts reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. k: I wrote to Larry it is not perception that blinds us. Please look at the Dependent Origination, it is ignorance that blinds us. If he saying that paramattha as reality, then I would agree that thought distract reality. But without thought, there is no understanding of reality. We have to start from intellectual understanding before we can understand the reality (paramatthas dhamma). I dont think he study Abdhidhamma, or not he will have not make these mistakes J: This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the > truth. K: I think they do not understand the truth because most of them do not study Abdhidhamma in details. If one read the Abdhidhamma in details, a lot truth will be understand be it intellectually. No confusion will arise, confidence will arise in the dhamma. And most important, it helps us to see conditional relations of dhamma, all are not self. So much benefit in learning it yet so many people shun away, to me it is a great loss for them. Ken O 31415 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:44am Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.11 Hi Christine and all, Thank you, Christine, for taking over the discussion lead and keeping the study corner going while I was away. Much appreciation! Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah, all, > > Victor took a leave of absence from dsg from 2nd of March to the 16th > of March, and I agreed to help out in the study corner until he > returned (not, of course, if it is in six lives time :-)). Hop up on > the roof with the binoculars and start scanning the horizon - I'm > sure he'll come into sight at any moment. :-) [snip] > > metta and peace, > Christine 31416 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:30am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 14 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Warm air touches the nostril. It is a touch object. It is touch-sense-base. This means that the touch is the base for arising of touching-consciousness. The touch is photthabba. It is rupa. It is called photthabba arammana or touch object. As it is a base for touching-consciousness. it is called photthabba-ayatana or touch-sense-base. That warmth is touched because there is warm-receptor ( touch-receptor ). The nostril( body ) is sense receiver. It is body-sense-base. This means that the nostril is the base for arising of touching-consciousness. The body is kaya. It is called kaya vatthu. It is called kaya pasada. As it is a base for touching-consciousness, it is called kayaayatana or body-sense-base. There are photthabbaayatana ( the warmth of the mouth ) and kayaayatana ( the body ). The nerve supports the touch to reach to the sense receptor . As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise tasting-consciousness or kayavinnana citta. There is warmth. There is photthabbayatana or touch-sense-base. There is the body. There is kayaayatana or body-sense-base. There arises kayavinnana citta or touching-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31417 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, James - In a message dated 3/17/04 2:07:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James - > > > >In a message dated 3/16/04 3:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >buddhatrue@y... writes: > >-------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is the Ch'an predecessor to Soto Zen "just sitting" > meditation,and > >has recently been popularized by Ven Sheng-Yen. You might find > material on it > >if you do a web search for him, or you can get a copy of his > book "Hoofprints > >of the Ox". > >--------------------------------------------------------- > > James: Thanks for the info. I was hoping for one of your beautiful > explanations but I guess I have no such luck. ;-)) > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the kind words. Ven Sheng-Yen gives a rather full description in his book. Also, you can look at the article at http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/poetry-stories/guidepost-of-silent-illumination.htm - that's at Anders' site (who used to be on this list), an excellent site. I don't have sufficient personal experience with Sheng-Yen's style of meditation (I've just recently been attempting it) to feel qualified to describe it to others. I do plan to do a one week silent-illumination retreat with him within the next year, and then I should have a better first-hand understanding. Meanwhile, it is better for you to read it in his own words, I think. ----------------------------------------------------- > > that book and I doubt that I can get it here in Cairo. I did a > search on Ven Sheng-Ven and I found a lot about his biography but > nothing about his method. Oh well. I will search again later when > I have more time. My computer is still being repaired! Lord help > me! ;-)) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Can't you get deliveries from Amazon.com? You might look at the following page at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1842930311/qid=1079540965/sr=1-12/ref=sr_1_12/002-2279014-0513608?v=glance&s=books Also, just do a search at amazon.com for "sheng-yen", and you'll find many works of his. Another site, one of Sheng-Yen's, that you might find something of interest on is http://www.chancenter.org/ddp/chanmag.html ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Also, where can > > >>I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you > tell me > >>the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is in the MN collection, if you own that. In any case, > it is > >available at the web site http://www.vipassana.info/111-anupada- > e.htm > >---------------------------------------------------------- > > James: Thanks. Yea I do own that collection but I haven't read the > whole thing yet. I am slowing working my way through all the > Nikayas. From this online version it states that Sariputta is the > only one who has been able to do this method: combining jhana and > vipassana: > > "Bhikkhus, saying it rightly, it is Saariputta that has mastered and > completed the noble ones' virtues, mastered and completed the noble > ones' concentration, mastered and completed the noble ones' > perception, mastered and completed the noble ones' release. Sayng it > rightly it is only Saariputta that has mastered and completed the > noble ones' virtues, concentration, wisdom and release." > > Hmmm...if only Sariputta has been able to do this method I don't > hold out too much faith that I might be able to also! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't have the time at this moment to compare with the ~Nanamoli/Bodhi version, but even if this is exactly right, it doesn't say that Sariputta was the only one able to practice and benefit from such an approach. It says that he is the only one to have "mastered and completed" it (and the rest of the Buddha's path of practice), and that implies to me making use of it to the point of becoming an arahant. In fact, though this may be a misreading, this passage sems to suggest that Sariputta was the first to become an arahant under the Buddha's tutelage. (I don't know whether or not that reading accords with information in other suttas.) Another thing: I don't maintain that silent-illumination practice is identical with the meditative technique of Sariputta - only that it reminds me of it. ------------------------------------------------------- But, > > thanks for the information. Again, I think that this sutta does > clearly show that there are two methods of meditation and that only > the exceptionally rare individual is able to combine them with any > success. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I said, I'm not certain that this last clause is what was intended. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31418 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi again, James - Just something more about silent-illumination practice: I just noted that there are three succesive articles under "P" at the Ch'an magazine web site I gave you the url for. The url,again, is http://www.chancenter.org/ddp/chanmag.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31419 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/17/04 2:23:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > And I didn't say it. Please reread what I did say - with > regard to formal and informal meditation - a bit more carefully. > >------------------------------------------------ > > k: Howard you said that "formal meditation is meditation done in a > manner in which there is a restriction of the scope of attention>> > I thought this is what you meant. If not please kindly elaborate on > what you meant. Call it soup for the soul ;-). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nothing deep here. I am distinguishing here between formal and informal meditation, the distinction actually not being a sharp one, but a matter of degree. In what is *usually* called "formal meditation," there is a real restriction of attention to some degree or other, sometimes extreme. In "informal meditation," there is much less of this, often with attention being completely broad (to the extent one can avoid being drawn by interest into selectivity). [The silent-illumination approach I have been recently "hawking", as I understand it, seems to partake of each of these extremes. Beginning with focussing on the breath, then expanding attention to the body as a whole, and then to the entire realm of sensory experience with attention completely non-selective and equanimous, the mind serene, and clarity of mind maximal: This seems to be its nature. (James, take note: This is a one-sentence description! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- > > > H: Ken, putting it simply: We are not close on this matter. > > k: the question is since one can do it anytime, why a need to do it > a more *formal*. Soemtimes I wonder, is it because we want to gain > something out of it, isn't this clinging, or we want to experience > something out of it, to feel comfortable, to feel calm, to feel more > attuned, isnt this also clinging. To me isn't it a waste, that the > rest of our waking hours we are not doing it. If one can transfer > our meditaion to everyday life, isn't it wonderful. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, our ordinary state is not one of heightened concentration, calm,and mindfulness, and thus our picking up on the nature of phenomena is not as acute as in a suitably altered state. There is a degree of cultivation possible during formal meditation which is not possible at other times, and carrying that out makes our mindfulness practice at ordinary times more effective. Obviously, the ideal is to be "practicing" at all times. -------------------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31420 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi, James - In a message dated 3/17/04 2:28:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: I have the full version of Adobe Acrobat but PDF documents > cannot be copied and pasted into either HTML or Word. PDF documents > are somewhat like a 'picture' of the document and they don't contain > the data underlying the words for direct coversion. Text documents > can be 'converted' into PDF but not the other way around. PDF > documents are created because they don't contain as much data as > text documents and are therefore easier to transfer over the > Internet and by e-mail. > =========================== Is it possible to copy sections of a PDF file, paste them onto a new PDF file,and then send that file as an attachment to others? (Anyone can download a free Adobe reader, and then they could read that attached file.) Of course, whoever would do the copying, pasting, attaching, and mailing has himself a part-time job in that! [But maybe several participants have the full Adobe Acrobat, and they could take turns in the mailings.] I wouldn't blame someone, however, for refusing to take this on. I would be most reluctant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31421 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 In a message dated 3/17/04 4:49:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its > Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some > parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the > Introduction - > > INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31422 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi, Christine - In a message dated 3/17/04 4:49:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > In order to begin the study of The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its > Commentaries. (Trans.from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi) perhaps some > parts can be posted for discussion? Here is the initial part of the > Introduction - > > INTRODUCTION: Dependent Arising > ========================== Apologies for the previous empty reply (sent too quickly). Thank you for this, Christine! How did you manage to copy this? Do you have other than the PDF file? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31423 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi, Christine - In a message dated 3/17/04 4:59:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > Very often when discussing on dsg the joyful and sad happenings in > daily life, someone will advise that we should not get caught up > in "the stories" - that there are only dhammas arising and falling > away. But in this excerpt, BB says "the Buddha is not interested in > abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all- > important." > What is 'content' if it is not the stories, populated by things, > people, animals, experiences? > Is this a contradiction, or am I on the wrong track? > > metta and peace, > =========================== I don't find this contradictory. I think the point being made is that more important than intellectually grasping a general principle is to see that principle as it applies to specifics. Now specifics can be any level of experience, but the closer to direct experience, unmediated by mental construction, the more specific "the specifics" become. For example, to understand the general principle of impermanence is not as "good" as seeing the impermanence of one's own body or of other conventional objects, and that is not as transformative as directly seeing the radical impermanence of phenomena as they arise and cease. Reality is very specific. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31424 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Dear Philip, discerning, focussing, being alert, these are all different words used in the translation. We used the Translation by Ven. Soma, seems to be clearer. But what is this sutta all about? About sati and understanding: sati sampaja~n~na (sampaja~n~na being another word for pa~n~naa). Actually, if we keep this in mind it does not matter what words one uses. Pali is to be preferred. He makes himself alert can be misleading. I have not seen this before. If these words bother you, I can check Pali if you give me the correct passages. He is walking, and then he is mindful of different namas and rupas that appear as not mine, not I. He is focussed: for that very short moment he knows only one reality at a time. When it is hardness there is no other dhamma appearing at that moment. He can get used to different characteristics appearing one at a time through the six doorways. Or seeing appears, he, or rather satisampaja~nana, can be aware of seeing. That is the way to know it as it is. Just daily realities. Also sati should be known as not self, otherwise it is self all the time who is aware. And sati alone is not enough, most important is understanding. Lobha can come in very easily. Nina. P.S. When you meet Rob K, please give us a report of your conversation. op 17-03-2004 02:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when > walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself > fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself > fully alert.") 31425 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. - Avijjaa Dear Sarah, this text is too good to quickly pass over it. I highlight some of it. op 16-03-2004 06:42 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Here’s a quote from Vibh-a (Dispeller of Delusion), Structure of > Conditions, 642 on ignorance which I find helpful: > > “....Clear comprehension is understanding. It understands rightly the > Dhamma of the four truths with each meaning and each reason. But ignorance > when it arises does not allow it to understand that quality, thus it is > non-clear-comprehension (asampaja~n~na). Delusion (moha) is by deluding. > Bewilderment (pamoha) is by bewildering. Confusion (sammoha) is by way of > confusing. “It finds what should not be found (avindiya.m vindati) is > ignorance (avijjaa). N: vindati : to know, find, look for. Ignorance has all sorts of inventions which twist the truth. Text: It engulfs, causes to sink in the process [of > existence] is the flood of ignorance (avijjogha). “It yokes to the > process [of existence] is the yoke of ignorance (avijjaayoga). N: It shows how powerful and frightening ignorance is. Text:Because > of arising again and again through not being abandoned, it is the inherent > tendency to ignorance (avijjaanusaya). N: It conditions akusala cittas with ignorance again and again, and then each time more ignorance is added to what was already accumulated. Text: “Like robbers that beset travellers > on the road, it besets profitable consciousness, seizes it, plunders it > is the besetting of ignorance (avijjaapariyu.t.thaana)..... N: Pariyu.t.thaana is a term for the akusala citta that arises, conditioned by the latent tendencies. It spoils all kusala. Kusala citta may arise, but soon after it akusala citta is bound to arise, for example when when we are pleased with ourselves, or we have a thought of wanting to accumulate kusala for ourselves instead of eradicating akusala. As we heard in Bgk: an underlying idea of: performing kusala for one's own sake. It is serious since most of the time there is ignorance of this. Text: cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): > > “.....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the > aggregates N: the meaning of the five groups which are the khandhas. Not understanding that these are actually citta, cetasika and rupa. text:the meaning of extent in the bases, N: extending, one of the meanings of ayatana (sense bases): they are realities that associate with each other, such as seeing, eyesense and visible object. text; the meaning of void in the elements, N: the elements are void of a self. text: the meaning of reality in the truths, N: the four Truths deal with paramattha dhammas. text: the meaning of predominance in the faculties N: the namas and rupas that are indriyas are leaders each in their own field. Manindriya is citta, it knows an object, is the chief in knowing an object. Panna is an indriya: a leader in understanding the object. .......(snipped) N: In many suttas the dependent origination is implied, sometimes just in a few words. In the Co it is striking how often we are reminded that the Buddha taught in this or that sutta: vatta, being in the cycle, and vivatta, freedom from the cycle. Nina. 31426 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 16-03-2004 00:58 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I agree. Groups are known through inference (reason), the same as other > mind object rupas such as nutriment. N: Nutriment can be directly known through insight. For us now: by inference, we can see that it is the condiiton for such or such phenomena. All the same, it is real! L:I further agree that groups are > ultimate realities, not mere concepts, and groups of groups are also > ultimate realities. N: Groups are concepts that help us to see the conditions for rupas. We learn that all that arises must have conditions. Each of these groups originates from one of the four factors. L:So shovels and tractors and Howard's tree are all > realities, not mere concepts. N: No. Howard gave you a few explanations already. I think I would like now a more practical approach. Spring is beginning in Boulders, Colorado. There must be flowers already. Can you pick a flower? Can you experience smell without having to call it anything? Can you, when you touch it, experience softness without having to call it anything? Is there anything appearing through the eyes without having to think of it or to define it? Is there not a difference when you close your eyes or when you open them? Then you can get closer to paramattha dhammas, ultimate truth, different from conventional truth. Paramattha dhammas have characteristics that can be directly experienced one at a time through the six doorways. When you begin to understand this, the difference between paramattha dhamma and concept will be clearer. We may theorize about this, but in this way we create many unnecessary difficulties for ourselves, we may have lots of doubts. I selected a few quotes from old posts for you that you can look at. I do not know whether you find them helpful. from Suan: "Coventional truth is truth by convention, or truth through the processes of naming or labeling. Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or experiment." from Rob K: from Jon: end quotes. Nina. P.S. By the way: panna and sanna are different cetasikas with different characteristics and functions. Think of the money changer. 31427 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:22am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Soon after the sound ( song of dove ) disappears, there left thought after thought. Some thoughts are directed to the possible dove and some thoughts are directed to signs associated with the dove like 'peace'. These thoughts are objects. They are thought-sense-base. This means that these thoughts are the base for arising of mind-consciousness or intellect-consciousness. The thoughts are dhammaarammana and they are mind objects. As they are base for mind-consciousness, it is called dhamma-ayatana or thought-sense-base. These thoughts are known because they are being attended. This means that the attending mind is the base for arising of mind-consciousness. The attending mind is mano. As it is a base for mind-consciousness, it is called manaayatana or mind-sense-base. There are dhammaayatana ( the thoughts ) and manaayatana ( the mind ). The attention supports the thought to reach to conscious level . As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise mind-consciousness or manovinnana citta. There are thoughts. There are dhammaayatana or thought-sense-base. There is the mind. There is manaayatana or mind-sense-base. There arises manovinnana citta or mind-consciousness or intellect-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31428 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 In a message dated 3/17/04 11:46:58 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Apologies for the previous empty reply (sent too quickly). Thank you for this, Christine! How did you manage to copy this? Do you There are decoders available that convert PDF to text. I downloaded a free trial software (could use for 5 conversions) once and it worked fine. Sorry but I lost the web site. I think I searched on "PDF to text conversions." I still think he full version of Acrobat Reader did this conversion. I suggest whomever said they had the full version (means you had to pay $30-40) check again. The other way that I use is to print the PDF file out and then scan it using my OCR setting. jack 31429 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hello Howard, Jack, all, It's called the 'One by One as they Arise' method. I open my hard copy of The Great Discourse on Causation p.1 of 43 of the Introduction, visible object fills my sight. After trillions of sense and mind door processes, I recognise a letter. After a whole lot of other mystifying processes, a finger presses on a keyboard and Lo! the very same letter appears on the screen. [repeat this about 944,000 times] then go through more mystifiying processes to connect to the internet and send to dsg. Cheaper than pdf. :-) It would be wonderful if someone could follow Jack's information and place the Sutta (particularly the introduction) and the commentaries in the files section of dsg. I'm afraid I place this operation in the same 'incomprehensible' basket as following road maps. It would save my mind door processes suffering from fatigue. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/17/04 11:46:58 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > Apologies for the previous empty reply (sent too quickly). > Thank you for this, Christine! How did you manage to copy this? Do you > There are decoders available that convert PDF to text. I downloaded a free > trial software (could use for 5 conversions) once and it worked fine. Sorry but > I lost the web site. I think I searched on "PDF to text conversions." > > I still think he full version of Acrobat Reader did this conversion. I > suggest whomever said they had the full version (means you had to pay $30-40) check > again. > > The other way that I use is to print the PDF file out and then scan it using > my OCR setting. > > jack 31430 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hello Jack, and all, The shortest time frame I have been able to find mentioned in a Sutta is seven days (quote at foot of post). And I've always taken it to mean that it is doubtful that very many are advanced enough or have enough accumulations to actually be able to do develop, without interruption, the four frames of reference for even a short period like 7 days, (corrections welcome), but if they did, they'd reach Unbinding and the end of re-becoming. My primitive search techniques: Cached articles: When searching for a particular sutta, it is relatively easy if you have the *exact* words. Just choose a distinctive group of words, add either of the words sutta or theravada [to ensure you don't get something like Nibbana Beer or Citta Home Industries], and put in Google. When the many possibles (in diminishing probability) are listed, peruse the likeliest on the first few pages and then click on the word 'cached' attached to an individual listing. This opens the article and highlights in different colours the words you were searching on. Scroll quickly down without needing to read any of the article until the coloured group of words shows up. You can search a score of articles in a few minutes without painstakingly reading everything. When the article is not cached: Search on Google as before. Open a likely article (usually on the first few pages of links), press Ctrl F and type in one or two distinctive words to search on. This will bring up the first occurrence highlighted in green. Press 'find next' to continue on through the article. This is obviously slower than the first method. If you still don't turn up what you are looking for, repeat, but rephrase the search terms - or, if you know the author, search on his/her name with the subject attached. ---------------------------- "(E. Conclusion) " Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. " Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. " Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. " 'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words." http://www.satipatthana.org/satipatthana_sutta.html ---------------------------- metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > >S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the breath in > the first place? Why select any particular object? > > jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. Second because it is too > difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, > for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday > life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. > It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use meditation to > slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of meditation and > then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. After > practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are able to see, > truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. > > Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we are > enlightened. I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one phenomena, our > breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why pick an > environment where there are lots of distractions? > Sarah and all, > > This is a follow-up to my note above. I was looking for the sutta where I > think it said that true awareness of one breath results in enlightenment. I haven’ > t found that yet. Catherine, you seem to be able to find anything in the > suttas. Can you help? (By the way, how do you do a search for a sutta phrase or > subject?) > > Sarah, I did find the following in the Anapanasati Sutta that answers your > question. “Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, > it is of great fruit and great benefit. When mindfulness of breathing is > developed and cultivated, it fulfills the four foundations of mindfulness. When the > four foundations of mindfulness are developed and cultivated, they fulfill > the seven enlightenment factors. When the seven enlightenment factors are > developed and cultivated, they fulfill true knowledge and deliverance.â€? > > I was waiting in a hospital corridor for test results on my wife early this > morning. (The biopsy came out benign. Great news.) I was reading one of my > favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non- Attachment and > found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought distorts > reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. In the West particularly, > the way of thinking is used in the attempt to understand truth. This is like > scratching your foot when you have your shoe on. You do not scratch the skin, > but only the shoe. The intellect can touch only the symbol of truth but not the > truth itself. This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the > truth. But when we give up this approach it is much easier. Intellectual people > find it very difficult to understand, because they try to reach the truth in > their own way. They want to reach the new, but carry with them the old > consciousness, which causes a reflection of the old on the new, distorting the > understanding and conditioning the consciousness till further, on a deeper level, by > the perversion of thought.â€? > > jack 31431 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Nina, and all. N:> discerning, focussing, being alert, these are all different words used in > the translation. We used the Translation by Ven. Soma, seems to be clearer. P: Thank you for your feedback,Nina. I should be using more than one translation, as I do with the Dhammapada. Is Ven. Soma's available online? If so, would someone kindly provide a link, or a link to other translations that you consider reliable? Thanks in advance. N:> But what is this sutta all about? About sati and understanding: sati > sampaja~n~na (sampaja~n~na being another word for pa~n~naa). Actually, if we > keep this in mind it does not matter what words one uses. P: I think my confusion lies in the degree of intended focus that is found in different approaches to cultivating sati. Thus the interest in whether the words sound self-directed or not. I am now reading a leading Thai academic that I am sure you are now familiar with (Pattayo? I forget his name at the moment) and his approach invites constant maintenance of sati, with an effort at channeling what arises and what doesn't. And then there is AJahn Chah with his "if you are without 30 sati for 30 minutes, you are crazy for 30 minutes." Very different from the approach favoured here, where it is taught that sati cannot be expected to arise often in the day. I think it's good for me to stay open to both ways of seeing sati. I think for the time being as a beginner who has already seen his way of practicing brahma-viharas shaken to the core, I will need to begin my cultivation of sati with a certain degree of directed focus and hopefully move towards the purer practice handed down by K Sujin as my practice develops. I have a great respect the way K Sujin and you who practice in her tradition see sati. It's quite a rigorous interpretation but I sense it is very pure. N:>Pali is to be > preferred. He makes himself alert can be misleading. I have not seen this > before. If these words bother you, I can check Pali if you give me the > correct passages. P: Thank you for your kind offer, Nina. Clearly my practice is not yet at the point where I should be worrying so much about individual words. N:> not self, otherwise it is self all the time who is aware. And sati alone is > not enough, most important is understanding. Lobha can come in very easily. P: This I can see, and it is why I admire your way of practicing. Rigorous and pure. I think I am getting better at questioning role of self in anything I do. The process of unravelling the tight hold of self has definitely begun in earnest. So I'll be careful however I cultivate sati that it does not become another exericse in self- preservation the way my brahma-viharas was. > P.S. When you meet Rob K, please give us a report of your conversation. P: I don't expect that will be happening any day soon, because Rob lives in Kyushu which is a good long way away. If he comes to the Tokyo area it would be wonderful to meet him, if only for a coffee. I'm very interested to hear how his Abhidhamma translation project is going/went. Metta, Phil > op 17-03-2004 02:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when > > walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself > > fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself > > fully alert.") 31432 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Phil --- Philip wrote: > ... > P: Thank you for your feedback,Nina. I should be using more than > one translation, as I do with the Dhammapada. Is Ven. Soma's > available online? If so, would someone kindly provide a link, or a > link to other translations that you consider reliable? Ven Soma's translatin of the text and commentary is at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Jon 31433 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Philip and all, Over time various members have formed small study groups on the list to go over important writings such as Nina's Abhidhamma in Dailly Life, and 'The Way of Mindulness' and commentary by Soma Thera. (There are a couple running on other topics now, as well) Larry was a driving engine behind some of these groups as he is with the VisuddhiMagga corner. Philip - the previous posts discussing sections of Soma Thera's translation of sutta and commentary of the Satipatthaana Sutta and commentary can be accessed via: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23298 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Phil > > --- Philip wrote: > > ... > > P: Thank you for your feedback,Nina. I should be using more than > > one translation, as I do with the Dhammapada. Is Ven. Soma's > > available online? If so, would someone kindly provide a link, or a > > link to other translations that you consider reliable? > > > Ven Soma's translatin of the text and commentary is at this link: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Jon > > 31434 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi James, -------------- J: > Huh?? I wasn't even writing about you; I was writing about Sarah asking why paying attention to the breath is important. ------------------------ Huh?? Then why did you post it to this thread addressing Howard's reply to me? It's not important but, for the record, I think you were writing about Sarah and me and all of us who follow the Abhidhamma/Commentary line. -------------------------- J: > I think I do have some ESP ability, but so what. It doesn't mean a thing...not a single thing. ESP isn't wisdom. -------------------------- I agree, and it's good to hear you say that. But aren't you the same James who told us he *knew*, through ESP, that the Abhidhamma was not the word of the Buddha? And he *knew*, through ESP, that certain suttas were forgeries – added on at a later date? ----------------------- J: > I didn't have anything to say about your post because you were quoting a commentary. ------------------------- All right, maybe I was mistaken. But this has happened before: just when I think I have scored a point against you, the goalposts have mysteriously moved :-) --------------------------- J: > I think you took my post wrong and have gone on the attack here. You wouldn't have done that if you had ESP like I do!! LOL! ------------------------- :-) I don't need ESP to know when I'm being conned. Kind regards, Ken H PS: You wrote: "If the commentary says that mindfulness of walking is the same with animals, okay. I don't have a problem with that." That is not exactly what the Commentary says: the kind of mindfulness of walking taught by the Buddha is definitely NOT the kind we share with animals. KH 31435 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/17/04 4:35:15 PM Central Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: The shortest time frame I have been able to find mentioned in a Sutta is seven days (quote at foot of post). And I've always taken it to mean that it is doubtful that very many are advanced enough or have enough accumulations to actually be able to do develop, without interruption, the four frames of reference for even a short period like 7 days, (corrections welcome), but if they did, they'd reach Unbinding and the end of re-becoming. Christine, Thanks for the search advice. I did know the reference above. What I was looking for was not referring to a time frame but that if we could see one breath clearly, we reach the end of becoming. Maybe I saw it in a commentary. But, I think it makes sense that if we could see one phenomena clearly with full realization of anicca, anatta and unsatisfactoriness, we could see all phenomena in the same light. Maybe not. Jack 31436 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Ken O, Any ideas on why "ignorance" is specifically ignorance of the 4 noble truths rather than ignorance of something else? Larry 31437 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Larry This is my guess work, I dont think our Lord Buddha will want to confuse worldings like me. So he stick to one meaning of ignorance as not understanding the 4NT. It makes dhamma easier to understand, just imagine if you will have to second guess what ignorance meant in a sutta. Specifically why mentioned in 4 NT and not others, IMHO it is not understanding that craving for existence, worldlings like me still wonder in cycles. So that is why the citta for rebirth linking is always lobha-mula citta (lobha + moha). Buddha seeks enlighetment bc he knows this craving is the initial impetus that drive us all to the mass of suffering, if there is no rebirth, where is there ageing, sickness and death. So the crux is getting rid of craving of existence ;-), so specifically 4NT and not others. Ken O 31438 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard and Nina, It looks like I am up against a formidable team. Neither of you has ever experienced a group while I _only_ experience groups. When you look at this email what do you see, one dot of light after another? If groups are concepts does space separate concepts? Larry 31439 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi Howard, Jack and Christine Even if you have the full version, there is nothing you can do about it. Because these are scanned documents and therefore images and not text. If look closely at the side, there are black patches - so it is scanned. Then I think maybe we should ask ourselves whether this copy is legal - means whether it infringe into copyrights Ken O 31440 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Christine, Jon, Suan Lu and all Thank you for that wonderful information about the past study groups, Christine. THe ADL group will be helpful as well, because after bouncing along merrily until Ch 9 I realized I needed to go back to the beginning and check my understanding. Thank you for the link, Jon, and Suan Lu for the interesting perspective on the Pali. I missed your post earlier. And I guess I could also thank Yahoova for this whole service. Wonderful how the archives are available the way they are, and searchable, and whatnot. And no obnoxious ads. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip and all, > > Over time various members have formed small study groups on the list > to go over important writings such as Nina's Abhidhamma in Dailly > Life, and 'The Way of Mindulness' and > commentary by Soma Thera. > 31441 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Dear Christine, Thank you very much. op 17-03-2004 10:58 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Very often when discussing on dsg the joyful and sad happenings in > daily life, someone will advise that we should not get caught up > in "the stories" - that there are only dhammas arising and falling > away. But in this excerpt, BB says "the Buddha is not interested in > abstract formulas devoid of content; for him content is all- > important." > What is 'content' if it is not the stories, populated by things, > people, animals, experiences? > Is this a contradiction, or am I on the wrong track? N: You are on the right track. I remember A. Sujin saying some years ago that D.O. is right now. It is not theory, not a formula. It is good to reflect all the time: how do we apply this now? On the personal level, the social level, and the level of paramattha dhammas, as far as we are able to. And paramattha dhammas are very daily, we should not forget. Isn't it all about lobha now, ignorance now, kusala kamma, akusala kamma? As Ken Ong says, there is no contradiction between these different levels. The Buddha spoke about suffering in life, old age, sickness and death, and he pointed to paramattha dhammas so that we can have a deeper understanding of all that happens. When we suffer loss or are troubled by the sickness of a dear person we can be reminded of D.O., we are in the cycle, that is a fact. Then we can be urged to develop more understanding of whatever reality appears, be it the worry or the sadness, be it thinking of stories. We cannot expect the dhamma to be a remedy straight away, but right understanding will surely eventually lead out of the cycle. We can have confidence in the Dhamma. Nina. 31442 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta: To Nina Dear Suan, thank you for giving the Pali terms. I appreciate your post. The word sampajaanakaarii makes it very clear that the sutta pertains to vipassana. Nina. op 17-03-2004 15:53 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > The Pali term in the first quote is "Pajaanaati" and simply means "to > know". The knowers of abhidhamma regard it as the action of the mind. > > On the other hand, the Pali term in the second quote > is "Sampajaanakaarii" where "sampajaana" as a synonym of "paññaa" > means wisdom. THus, sampajaanakaarii would mean someone who is wise / > prudent. > > Phil was also interested to know the significance of the following > quote: > > "Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed > internally on..."" > > The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye > kaayaanupassii viharati". > > We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives > as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body > privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily > phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! > > The main verb under consideration is "anupassii" > from "Kaayaanupassii". > > Thus, "anupassii" means "someone who observes" and the > verb "anupassati, to observe" is the action of the mind. > > > In passing, practitioners who observe their bodily postures are pure > practitioners of vipassanaa (see the Pali term "Kaayaanupassii"), and > can attain near-jhaana samaadhi (upacaarasamaadhi) at the maximum > which is adequate for attainment of any path insight (maggañaa.na) > from Sotaapanna level through to the Arahant level. > > Near-jhaana samaadhi is just before the First Ruupaavacara Jhaana, > and thus we know for sure that the Buddha in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana > Suttam clearly taught how to attain the Arahant awakening without > first having Samatha Jhaanas (Ruupaavacara Jhaanas). > > It is a pity that some people persist in their misguided narrow views > on the roles of worldly Jhaanas (Samatha Jhaanas) without making > genuine efforts to understand Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as the > Buddha's teachings on purely Vipassanaa practice. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello all > > I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of > the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but > in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. > > I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when > walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself > fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself > fully alert.") > > Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just > that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) > > Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed > internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references > to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" > suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of > discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed > internally" just another phrase that means the same thing > as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." > > I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes > himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed > internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to > this beginner, anyways. > > I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do > with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the > translation available at access to insight. > > Thanks in advance for any guidance here. > > Metta, > Phil 31443 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. - Avijjaa Dear Nina & All, Thankyou for interspersing comments and Pali details on the other quote I gave on ignorance. As you've mentioned, the Dhamma was taught by the Buddha in various ways. With regard to Dependent Origination, it was sometimes taught from the beginning (ignorance), especially when there is confusion (!). Sometimes it is taught backwards, especially when there is trouble ‘for the purpose of showing the reason for the various kinds of suffering beginning with ageing and death...’(Dispeller 608) and sometimes starting in the middle and working backwards to show how cause and result ‘extends back into the past’ or from the middle to the end for showing how the future follows its causes in the present. There are a couple more extracts I’d like to give from the introduction and definition section in Dispeller, Vibh-A (PTS transl of Sammohavinodanii). I’ve been reflecting on the first one which discusses why sometimes ignorance is given as the ‘head’ or prime cause, whilst in other contexts craving is given as the ‘head’. I think it’s really interesting and it also links to threads on kamma, precepts, rebirth and so on. “641. But there is a way of presentation (pariyaaya) according to which it may be the prime cause. but what is that? [When] it heads the exposition of the process. For the Blessed One gives the exposition of the process with [one of] two things at its head: either ignorance according as it is said: ‘No first beginning, bhikkhus, of ignorance is made known, before which ignorance was not and after which ignorance came to be. Thus is this said, bhikkhus, and yet it is made known that ignorance has that [i.e cankers] as its condition’ (A v 113); or craving for existence, according as it is said: ‘No first beginning, bhikkhus, of craving for existence is made known, before which craving for existence was not and after which craving for existence came to be. Thus this is said, bhikkhus; and yet it is made known that craving for existence has that as its condition’ (A v 116). “612. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the process with these two states at the head? Because they are the outstanding causes of kamma which leads to a happy destiny and that which leads to an unhappy destiny. For ignorance is the cause of outstanding kamma which leads to an unhappy destiny. Why? Because just as a cow to be slaughtered, on being burned with fire and belaboured with cudgels and overcome by torment, when she is sick with the torment starts drinking the hot water although it is distressing and brings about her own undoing, so the ordinary man who is overcome by ignorance undertakes kamma of the various kinds beginning with killing living things, which leads to unhappy destiny, although it is distressing because of the burning of the defilements and brings his own undoing because it casts him into an unhappy destiny. “614. But craving for existence is the outstanding cause of kamma which leads to a happy destiny. Why? Because, just as the aforesaid cow, through craving for cold water, [starts] drinking cold water which is entirely pleasant and dispels her own tortures, so the ordinary man who is overcome by craving for existence starts kamma of the various kinds beginning with abstention from killing living things. This leads to a happy destiny and is pleasant because it is free from the burning of the defilements, and by attaining the happy destiny he dispels the torture of the suffering in the unhappy destiny. “615. But as regards these [two] states which head the exposition of the process, in some instances the Blessed One gives instruction based on a single [one of these] states, for instance: ‘Accordingly, bhikkhus, formations have ignorance as their cause’ (S ii 31) and so on; likewise: ‘In one, bhikkhus, who dwells seeing satisfaction in states productive of craving, craving increases, with craving as condition clinging [arises]’ (S ii 84) and so on; in some instances based on both, for instance: ‘Thus, bhikkhus, this body comes to arise for the fool who is hindered by ignorance and yoked to craving; accordingy this body and external mentality-materiality are a pair; due to the pair there is contact, and to the six bases (of contact) touched by which the fool feels pleasue and pain’ (S ii 23f) and so on.” ***** S: Of course these paragraphs I’ve just typed out touch on a lot more than introductory comments to just ignorance, but I think this is inevitable. The other quote I wished to give I’m now cutting short as the first one turned out to be so long. At the end of the section on ignorance in the same text we read about how it conceals the Four Noble Truths. These truths are profound and difficult to see. Furthermore, we read: “644......But the truth of cessation is extremely profound and extremely hard to see; thus the darkness of delusion which conceals the four Noble Truths, which are profound because hard to see and hard to see because profound, is called ignorance.” ***** Any comments most welcome as usual. Metta, Sarah ===== 31444 From: Philip Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:15pm Subject: Clinging to views (anecdote) Hello all. I'd like to tell you all a funny story that keeps coming to mind every day recently, because of the shifts of understanding I've been having recently. When I came to Japan, I understood that cars drive on the left, unlike in my native Canada. That was easy. But I had trouble figuring out the pedestrian traffic. Did people pass each other on the right, or the left? It seemed that they passed on the left. (Someone even told me this was because samurai in the Edo era carried their swords on the left, and passing to the left would help them avoid bumping swords and fighting as a result.) A few years later, we moved from Central Japan to the suburbs of Tokyo. I was perplexed to find that many people insisted passing on the right on the sidewalk. What was wrong with these people? I asked my wife, and she reassured me that people were supposed to pass on the left. I took this as a confirmation of the rightness of my view, and about 2 years ago in a shameful epriod of bad choler, I began having little confrontations with people who insisted on trying to get by me to the right, even as I squeezed up against concrete walls to try to stop them. "You're going the wrong way!" I hissed. "No, no...you are," they replied. This went on for a few months, especially along one long stretch of concrete wasteland that I walk up every day on the way home. Did it occur to me to just yield quickly? Yes, it occured to me and on most days I did, but but going home from work, tired, carrying heavy groceries, I insisted on the rightness of the leftness of my view. Well, at some point I discovered that in the Tokyo area, people do indeed pass on the right, unlike in my wife's home, the Nagoya area. She was right in Nagoya but she was wrong in the Tokyo suburbs and I had been wrong in clinging to the view I'd inherited from her. I laughed at myself, and expressed regret to the ghosts of the people I'd had run-ins with, and then proceeded to pass on the right. And then I discovered that many people were trying to pass on the left, and a few little confrontations ensued! "Are you from Nagoya, idiot!" I'd mutter. "You're supposed to pass to the right around here." No, the last part's fiction, thankfully. By then I was wise enough to stop holding on to views, and now, as soon as someone is coming down that long stretch of concrete, I quickly yield to the other side no matter whether it is the right or the left, as any sensible person would do. There is no need to hold on to views about such a silly thing. Now, with dhamma, I am learning so much, so quickly. Some of it very contrary. Sati is a rare experience that rises in a conditioned way. Sati is a common experience, that starts like indiviual drops of water from a kettle spout, and then as the kettle is tilted, becomes a steady pour. (the latter is Ajaan Chah) And except for that brief bit of bad behaviour last week, I am exercising the same willingness to yield to which ever view of things I come across. Of course, that's not what the Buddha taught. He said to doubt everything. But I think we can doubt, even while yielding. So that was my funny clinging to views anecdote. And you see how awash with hostility I was just a few short years ago. (Thanks again to brahma-viharas for getting me out of that mess.) Metta, Phil 31445 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Nina & All, > --- nina wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I appreciate B.B.'s answer on space. > .... S:> yes, I'll send more links to posts as he requests. .********** Further discussion and comments (yesterday) from Bhikkhu Bodhi [I’ve inserted indicators to clarify who’s writing and note that >> indicates earlier comments]: .... S:>> While I'm writing, we're also discussing space > (akasa > rupa) in detail and questioning a comment in CMA: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31140 .... BB:>> I'm not at all sure. This requires further > investigation. I must have had > some source for my statement (unless it came from > Ven. U Rewata Dhamma and I > just incorporated it into my commentary). I'll have > to check up on this. .... S:>You may have referred to a comment by Ven ~Naa.namoli in Vsim V111, n68 or elsewhere. I refer to it in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20500.html .... BB:>> Of course, any further comments you care to make > would > be greatly appreciated. In Karunadasa's article on > Time and Space, I also believe there may be errors > in > his treatment on space in this regard. ..... S:>In addition to the ones I gave last time, further letters by Nina on Space (akasa rupa) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28945 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29030 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31051 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31207 .... BB: On the status of the space element: I tried to do some research on this, but could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may be correct. I had always assumed that the defining mark of a paramattha-dhamma according to the Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna ("existing through intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me think this may not be correct. It would not be enough, though, merely to bring forth rational arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote texts that establish that space is paramattha without being sabhAvato vijjamAna. Such distinctions are unlikely to be made even in the Abhidhamma commentaries (though I might be wrong). One would have to go down to texts of a still more technical nature, like the Abhidhamma tikas (sub-commentaries), and it is difficult to find anyone who knows these well. If you have contact with Lance Cousins (former president of Pali Text Society) or Rupert Gethin (current president), they might be able to provide you with the answer. Here I don't have access to these texts, and the headache makes delving into such abstruse but interesting questions difficult.< end BB’s comments> Metta, Sarah ====== 31446 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB3 - Luminosity Dear Nina & All, I just added a short comment: ... BB: > >But I regard the Abhidhamma Pitaka as being later than the four Nikayas > and the core texts of the Khuddaka Nikaya (Dhpada, Sutta-nipata, most of > Thera-therigatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, etc.), and the Abhidhamma > commentaries as being "considerably later," so I would still stand by my > statement.< .... S: >With respect, I think we may have to agree to disagree here. Please see the links at the end of this note (on Decline of the Sasana) with relevance to these points*.< ... I gave these links after signing off, but no further discussion for now. ..... *Decline of the Sasana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24576 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24257 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24386 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30426 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19897 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17904> Metta, Sarah ===== 31447 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ken, our ordinary state is not one of heightened > concentration, calm,and mindfulness, and thus our picking up on the nature of phenomena is not as acute as in a suitably altered state. There is a degree of cultivation possible during formal meditation which is not possible at other times, and carrying that out makes our mindfulness practice at ordinary times more effective. Obviously, the ideal is to be "practicing" at all times. > -------------------------------------------------- K: Why there is a need for a heightened concentration, calm and mindfulness. I dont think when Buddha say let us restrain in our six senses, it required a heigthened state. Likewise when you see the satipatthana sutta the begining, breathing in long.... rapture... equanmity, all these are not heigthen state. How does your perposition being consistent with satipatthana and the six senses. Other than jhanas and the superpowers attain, I dont think there are heighten states. Ken O 31448 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack (& All), --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > >S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the > breath in > the first place? Why select any particular object? > > jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. .... S: Perhaps it would be helpful to consider and look at various suttas to see whom it was suggested for and in what circumstances. In short, was it suggested for busy lay people(very large numbers of whom became enlightened)? Also, was he teaching those who had already attained jhanas with breath as object or not? Finally, we read that even key disciples like Sariputta (as in the case of Rahula) might not know when or for whom breath was a suitable object. We read in the Vism that it is the hardest of samatha objects and only for some with paricular wisdom, I think. (I know and respect that James disagrees here). .... J: >Second because it is too > difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual > understanding of, > for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of > everyday > life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding > of it. .... S: Again, I appeciate what you’re saying. I think we have to continue reflecting and considering what an understanding of anatta means. For example, I don’t understand it to mean a ‘sense of losing oneself’ or ‘not experiencing any object’ etc and I don’t see this as supported in the texts either. Simply, as I see it, pa~n~naa (wisdom) learns more and more about the various namas and rupas appearing anytime, whether nervously waiting for your wife’s results (glad all’s well, btw) or any other time. What are these namas and rupas? They are the dhammas we read about throughout the suttas - seeing, visible object, thinking, worry, attachment and so on. By understanding their characteristics, conceptually and experientially, as they arise, the understanding of anatta will develop without any special intention or ‘giving up’. If we have an idea that there’s too much bustle or dhammas need to be slowed down, perhaps we need to consider a little more about the nature of dhammas. .... J: > It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use > meditation to > slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of > meditation and > then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. .... S: I think this is bound to be the development of concentration or a particular kind of reflection. I’m not saying there is no value or there can’t be moments of real wisdom at these times, but we have to remember that the dhammas themselves or objects of meditation will have long past by the time there is a ‘picking out’ and reflecting (even if there are no words) on a concept of that object. It’s like now, maybe there can be a focussing on the hardness, but, in my experience, I think attachment to awareness is bound to be present. .... J:>After > practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are > able to see, > truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. ... S: Perhaps all the wise considering and reflecting on what you’ve read and heard has helped as well;-) .... J: > Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we > are > enlightened. ... S: While it’s true that enlightenment takes place in a moment (lokuttara magga citta), I think we have to be clear that wisdom develops very slowly over aeons and has to begin with clearly understanding namas and rupas without any confusion or doubt at all. .... J: >I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one > phenomena, our > breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why > pick an > environment where there are lots of distractions? .... S: By breath, we should be clear in the development of satipatthana, I think, that we’re referring to experiences through the body sense - hardness/softness, motion/pressure and heat/cold. (Htoo wrote about this in a recent post). For wisdom to really develop as I understand,it need to know all kinds of namas and rupas without any special selection. It’s impossible for it to develop by just focussing on one reality only. This is why the suttas include all dhammas through six doorways. Without the knowledge of sounds or visible objects when they arise, for example, it’s impossible to become enlightened. .... > Sarah and all, > > This is a follow-up to my note above. I was looking for the sutta where > I > think it said that true awareness of one breath results in > enlightenment. I haven’ > t found that yet. Catherine, you seem to be able to find anything in the > > suttas. Can you help? (By the way, how do you do a search for a sutta > phrase or > subject?) .... S: Perhaps you meant Christine? A good way for this would be to key in terms or phrases into google. (I think this is just for Hong Kong, so the link may not work) http://www.google.com.hk/ You could try ‘breath awareness enlightenment’, or to narrow it down, maybe try ‘anapanasati...’. The last time I tried, I was directed back to a message of mine here on DSG!! Another clue which I learnt from Chris, is to click on ‘cached’ which makes it easy to scroll quickly through the linked texts for the relevant highlighted passage. .... J: > Sarah, I did find the following in the Anapanasati Sutta that answers > your > question. “Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and > cultivated, > it is of great fruit and great benefit..... .... S: Again, I would just ask, developed and cultivated by whom and with what understanding? .... <...> J: > favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of > Non-Attachment and > found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only > perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. ..... S: This is referring to the vipallaasas (perversions).Whenever the consciousness (and accompanying mental factors) are unwholesome, i.e when there’s lobha, dosa or moha as roots, then the perception and consciousness are perverted. As Ken O said, this doesn’t mean all thinking is bad. I agree with your main comment though, that intellectual understanding should never be taken for direct experience or wisdom. Right intellectual understanding is an important condition, but as you indicate,thinking is only thinking. The hindrance, however, is not intellectual understanding or being an intellectual person or any other kind of person, but moha or avijja as we’re discussing in the DO corner. I hope you and your wife continue in good health, Jack. Conditions change all the time, so it’s good to make the most of the opportunities for wise reflection and wisdom whilst we can. I appreciate this discussion - you help me to reflect carefully. I’d also like to draw your attention to a recent post of Jon’s which I think is relevant: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30249 He’ll also be happy to discuss any points further (albeit slowly;-)) Metta and looking forward to any further comments, Sarah p.s Do you have a picture of yourself and your wife to add to the photo album? Any other newbies? ================ 31449 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:04am Subject: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 2 Dear Group, Here are the final paragraphs of the section in Bhikkhu Bodhi's intro. on 'Dependent Arising'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- "In order to end the round, the conditions that sustain it have to be eliminated; and to eliminate them it is necessary to know what they are, how they hold together, and what must be done to extinguish their causal force. Though the round has no first point, no cause outside itself, it does have a distinct generative structure, a set of conditions internal to itself which keeps it in motion. The teaching of dependent arising discloses this set of conditions. It lays them out in an interlocking sequence which makes it clear how existence repeatedly renews itself from within and how it will continue into the future through the continued activation of these causes. Most importantly , however, dependent arising shows that the round can be stopped. It traces the sequence of conditions to its most fundamental factors. Then it points out that these can be eliminated and that with their elimination the round of rebirths and its attendant suffering are brought to a halt. As an account of the causal structure of the round, dependent arising appears in the suttas in diverse formulations. The fullest and most common contains twelve factors. The formula has two sides. One shows the sequence of origination, the other the sequence of cessation: "Bhikkhus, what is dependent arising? With ignorance as condition volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality- materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering. This bhikkhus, is called dependent arising. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance, volitional formations cease; with the cessation of volitional formations consciousness ceases; with the cessation of consciousness mentality-materiality ceases; with the cessation of mentality- materiality the six sense bases cease; with the cessation of the six sense bases contact ceases; with the cessation of contact feeling ceases; with the cessation of feeling craving ceases; with the cessation of craving clinging ceases; with the cessation of clinging existence ceases; with the cessation of existence birth ceases; with the cessation of birth, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering. (S.XII, 1; ii 1-2) [[2] The prevailing interpretation regards the series as spanning three successive lives, the twelve factors representing the causal and resultant phases of these lives alternated to show the round's inherent capacity for self-regeneration. Thus ignorance and volitional formations represent the causal phase of the previous life which brought about existence in the present; the five factors from consciousness through feeling are their fruit, the resultant phase of the present life. Craving, clinging, and existence represent renewed causal activity in the present life; birth and aging and death sum up the resultant phase of the future life. At the risk of oversimplification the sequence can be briefly explained as follows. Due to ignorance - formally defined as non- knowledge of the Four Noble Truths - a person engages in ethically motivated actions, which may be wholesome or unwholesome, bodily, verbal, or mental. These actions, referred to here as volitional formations, constitute kamma. At the time of rebirth kamma conditions the re-arising of consciousness, which comes into being bringing along its psychophysical adjuncts, "mentality-materiality" (naama- ruupa). In dependence on the psychophysical adjuncts, the six sense bases develop - the five outer senses and the mind-base. Through these, contact takes place between consciousness and its objects, and contact in turn conditions feeling. In response to feeling craving springs up, and if it grows firm, leads into clinging. Driven by clinging actions are performed with the potency to generate new existence. There actions, kamma backed by craving, eventually bring a new existence: birth followed by aging and death. To prevent misunderstanding it has to be stressed that the distribution of the twelve factors into three lives is an expository device employed for the purpose of exhibiting the inner dynamics of the round. It should not be read as implying hard and fast divisions, for in lived experience the factors are always intertwined. The past causes include craving, clinging, and existence, the present ones ignorance and volitional formations; the present resultants begin with birth and end in death, and future birth and death will be incurred by the same resultants. Moreover, the present resultant and causal phases should not be seen as temporally segregated from each other, as if assigned to different periods of life. Rather, through the entire course of life, they succeed one another with incredible rapidity in an alternating sequence of result and action; the action is followed by more results; and these are again followed by still more action. So it has gone on through time without beginning, and so it continues. From this it is clear that dependent arising does not describe a set of causes somehow underlying experience, mysteriously hidden out of view. What it describes is the fundamental pattern of experience as such when enveloped by ignorance as to the basic truths about itself. This pattern is always present, always potentially accessible to our awareness, only without the guidance of the Buddha's teaching it will not be properly attended to, and thus will not be seen for what it is. It takes a Buddha to point out the startling truth that the basic pattern of experience is itself the source of our bondage, "the origin of this entire mass of suffering." [2] It will be noted that, as the twelvefold formula accounts for the origin and cessation of suffering, it offers an expanded version of the second and third noble truths. In fact, in one sutta (A.III,61; i,177) the two sides of the formula are stated in full as explanations of these two truths. End of the introductory section paragraphs on "Dependent Arising" ================================= 31450 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Icaro & Christine, --- icarofranca wrote: > dear Chris! > > > Holy Mackerel! Was that all in the Portugese translation? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > heheheh...of course not! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What WAS > > the translator smoking? (- or, dare I ask, the poster?) :-) :-) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Only the Concrete cocoa at office...HAHAHAHAH!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Icaro, I could endure most difficulties, but I think the thing to > > break me would be Hostility by Pheasants! O, Lordy! that SUCH a > > thing could be!) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Bah!!!This typos make me SICH!!! > A bunch of hostile pheasants would be a terrible event to endure > for any warm-hearted Bhikkhu... but I mean hostility by peasants > instead ( and not Hostility by Peanuts, when Charlie Brown decide to > become a Bhikkhu, or Hostility by pea-shooters, etc....) ..... S: LOL!!!We both laughed so much when we read your analysis in the Sariputta sutta, Ch of 8s, 16, Sutta Nipata. Reading Icaro's messages is far more fun than doing cross-words...just trying to work out the sutta is a challenge in itself;-) ;-). Icaro, you can find the Pali at your favourite Pali Tipitaka website. I had in mind to look at a few key terms, but I get put off by all the squiggles on my Mac when I look. We discussed the first part of the sutta which comes out in a sarcastic way in Portuguese. If you like, you could raise one or two Pali key terms. We could also look at the meaning of ‘solitary dwelling’ when the Buddha speaks to Sariputta. It's obviously a favourite sutta of yours and I have a couple of translations to help. By the way, the peasants are ‘heretics’ in Sadhatissa’s transl and ‘those following another’s doctrine’ in Norman’s that ‘he should not be afraid, even after seeing their many terrors’!! Last two stanzas (Saddhatissa transl): “Then let him mindfully train to discipline the five kinds of pollution in the world, [namely] passion for forms, sounds, tastes, smells and touch.” [S: a good description of pollution] “Let the monk who is mindful with well-liberated mind subdue the desire for these things. Then, investigating the Truth thoroughly and with concentration, he will destroy the darkness [of ignorance].” [S: Always back to the darkness of ignorance until illuminated by insight and wisdom, revealing the noble truths.] Metta, Sarah ====== 31451 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) HI Htoo. S: I hope you saw my last note to you on final preparations of equipment. Hope it wasn’t TOO picky;-)Apologies if so. I’ve appreciated some of your recent installments, but a few comments here as it touches on ayatanas (sense bases) which we discussed before: --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Soon after the sound ( song of dove ) disappears, there left thought > after thought. Some thoughts are directed to the possible dove and some > thoughts are directed to signs associated with the dove like 'peace'. > > These thoughts are objects. They are thought-sense-base. This means > that these thoughts are the base for arising of mind-consciousness or > intellect-consciousness. The thoughts are dhammaarammana and they are > mind objects. As they are base for mind-consciousness, it is called > dhamma-ayatana or thought-sense-base. .... S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects (arammana) of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense bases). Dhamma-ayatana consist of subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana as we agreed. Perhaps I misundestand you here. .... > These thoughts are known because they are being attended. This means > that the attending mind is the base for arising of mind-consciousness. > The attending mind is mano. As it is a base for mind-consciousness, it > is called manaayatana or mind-sense-base. > > There are dhammaayatana ( the thoughts ) and manaayatana ( the mind ). .... S: Not quite. ... > The attention supports the thought to reach to conscious level . As > these matters are already attended with full understanding, .... S: The point, I think, is that full understanding can only know paramattha dhammas as we always agree, not thoughts which you agree above are concepts. .... <...> > The > meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is > no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of > self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. > > They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They > all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. > As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no > trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No > one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all > are anatta. ... S: Excellent, especially the last lines at the ends of your posts now;-);-)Imho, they’re getting better all the time. S: On another thread, you asked Swee Boon what the six higher knowledges in a translation were referring to. As I understand, these always refer to the 6 abhi~n~na (higher or supernormal knowledges). There was some discussion between you and someone else on these. As I understand only those who have attained all 5 jhanas and arahantship can exceptionally (or I should say could during the Buddha’s time and for a while afterwards)have these abhi~n~naa. For details, see Nyantiloka: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm Metta, Sarah ===== 31452 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > -------------- > J: > Huh?? I wasn't even writing about you; I was writing about > Sarah asking why paying attention to the breath is important. > ------------------------ > > Huh?? Then why did you post it to this thread addressing Howard's > reply to me? It's not important but, for the record, I think you > were writing about Sarah and me and all of us who follow the > Abhidhamma/Commentary line. > > -------------------------- James: I was replying to the way that Howard described meditation and I mentioned Sarah by name. I didn't mention you by name. I didn't care if it was in response to a post by you or not. > J: > I think I do have some ESP ability, but so what. > It doesn't mean a thing...not a single thing. ESP isn't wisdom. > -------------------------- > > I agree, and it's good to hear you say that. But aren't you the same > James who told us he *knew*, through ESP, that the Abhidhamma was > not the word of the Buddha? And he *knew*, through ESP, that certain > suttas were forgeries – added on at a later date? > > ----------------------- James: No, I never said any such thing! I have only referred to my ESP ability when it came to Buddhaghosa. It doesn't take ESP to know that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, it only takes half a brain!! ;-)) And as far as any sutta analysis, I was probably using a literary analysis to determine if something seemed to be by the Buddha or not. > J: > I didn't have anything to say about your post because you were > quoting a commentary. > ------------------------- > > All right, maybe I was mistaken. But this has happened before: just > when I think I have scored a point against you, the goalposts have > mysteriously moved :-) > > --------------------------- James: Scoring points?? Just what is your motivation? To elucidate and learn the dhamma or to personally show me up? (Hmmm...I think my ESP ability gives me the answer; I wonder if you know it yourself.) > J: > I think you took my post wrong and have gone on the attack > here. You wouldn't have done that if you had ESP like I do!! LOL! > ------------------------- > > :-) I don't need ESP to know when I'm being conned. James: Whatever. I am not trying to con you about anything. You have some personal issues you should resolve. > > Kind regards, > Ken H Just how 'kind'?? 31453 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact Dear Eznir, --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah, > E: `Contact the meeting point' may be understood in 2 ways. > > (1) Eye, forms and eye-consciousness; the meeting of these three is > contact. And so with the other senses. ... I read all your comments with interest. I think we need to remember that contact refers tp phassa cetasika and associated factores. As we’ll be discussing it in depth within the context of D.O., perhaps we should wait for then? Two kinds of contact are distinguished as I read it: adhivacanasamphassa arising in the mind-door processes and patighasamphassa arising in the sense-door processes. I wrote a very detailed post to Howard on this (referring to the Mahanidana sutta and commentary and Abhidhamma texts). You may like to look at it and consider further comments for when we get to it in the D.O. Corner: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m23106.html Also, Nina gives a lot of helpful detail on phassa and all the mental factors in her great book ‘Cetasikas’ http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.htm (hard copy highly recommended,published by Zolag, available at Wisdom?? Meanwhile, do you have anything to share or comment on concerning ignorance or the Mahandidana intro? Metta, Sarah ===== 31454 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sankhara Hi Eznir, Again, we’ll be discussing sankhara in the context of D.O. in a week or two as it’s the second link. --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Sarah, > E: I recognize Sankhara as dependent condition, when and where ever > it occurs in the Suttas. In the Culla Vedalla Sutta MN-44 the lay- > follower Visakha asks Bhikkuni Dhammadina this question "How many > formations(Sankhara) are there, what they are and why they are so > called?" .... I think we have to remember that sankhara has different meanings in different contexts which can be very confusing. For example, in DO it refers to wholesome and unwholesome kammic forming volitions whereas in ‘sabbe sankhara dhamma anicca etc’ it refers to all conditioned phenomena/realities. In other contexts, sankhara refers to the 50 mental factores included in sankhara khandha. So I think for each context we’d need to consider the meaning carefully. I just had a quick look at this sutta, for example, and BB gives detailed commentary notes. Perhaps we can discuss it and some of your other references further when we are discussing sankhara in DO? Meanwhile, you may find it helpful to look at: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sankhaara.htm Also, see posts under ‘sankhara’ in UP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I’ll also keep your handy for when we are discussing this section of DO further. I need to follow some of your references and comments. Look forward to your further contributions in the meantime. Metta, Sarah ====== 31455 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack (Ken O. and Sarah), Jack I would like to comment on this part of your post. Ken O. has already responded, and I like his post very much. I had written a response yesterday, but decided against posting it. But now I am inspired by Ken, so I write a new one. > I was waiting in a hospital corridor for test results on my wife early this > morning. (The biopsy came out benign. Great news.) I was reading one of my > favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non-Attachment and > found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that > is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought distorts > reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. In the West particularly, > the way of thinking is used in the attempt to understand truth. This is like > scratching your foot when you have your shoe on. You do not scratch the skin, > but only the shoe. The intellect can touch only the symbol of truth but not the > truth itself. This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the > truth. But when we give up this approach it is much easier. Intellectual people > find it very difficult to understand, because they try to reach the truth in > their own way. They want to reach the new, but carry with them the old > consciousness, which causes a reflection of the old on the new, distorting the > understanding and conditioning the consciousness till further, on a deeper level, by > the perversion of thought.â€? First of all, I am happy to hear that you have no cause for worry about your wife's health. :-) I went for a full check up myself two days ago, and the result was positive except for high cholesterol, and this too was lower than expected. I was expecting the doctor to give me a grim report, but apparently he extended my visa for some time. ;-) Like Ken said, it is not the question of perception, but ignorance. Ignorance conditions the perception. And here I would like to direct you to the dictionary meaning of vipallasa (perversion). vipallása: 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either of perception (saññá-vipallása), of consciousness (citta v.) or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); what is without a self (anattá) as a self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' (A. IV, 49). - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path- knowledge (sotápatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anágámitá) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, 68). So from the above, it can be seen that `thought' is not the problem, but because of ignorance and accumulated tendencies, the perversion of views, perception and consciousness occurs. On the other hand, if ignorance is eradicated or is not there, then there is no perversion, as in moments of satipatthana. You may like to distinguish between two particular kinds of thought. Firstly I think it wrong to make such characterizations as east or west, it makes it harder to understand anything. Ignorance and wrong view is a reality not peculiar to any group of people (except when you differentiate between ariyans and worldlings). And there are many eastern philosophies making the same mistake as the western ones. And as you know, most Buddhists in Asia are as deluded as any western man. Why I stress this point, is because I see at the root of all `wrong thinking', ignorance and wrong view. Ignorance, through perversion, takes for real, i.e. having the characteristic of permanence and self, people and things existing in space and time. What then happens is that one looks to explain such perception, not being aware of any of the perversions. In addition some believing in objective reality of ugliness/beauty and of pleasure/pain as being inherent in those objects would likewise come up with ideas about such. With the wrong starting point, we then waste our whole lives accepting and rejecting viewpoints. I wouldn't say though, that this is like, "scratching your foot when you have your shoe on". I think more, that it is like scratching the head to relieve the itch on the foot. Now, the above author might say that his objection applies particularly to another kind of thinking, i.e. the kind that *knows* theoretically about the nature of reality. The good example of this is those of us on this list, who believe in Abhidhamma and don't believe in meditation or any idea of volitional practice. It is true, that the "symbol of truth" is not the "truth" itself. But without symbols we wouldn't ever know about our perversions, and what in fact are the objects of experience. Jack, I think the mistake most people make when they judge that the `word is not the reality', is that they would try to find a way to then come up with a method to experience reality without the interference of thought. But the perversion starts at a level long before any verbalization, and whether one knows it or not, there *is* concept making going on all the time. Besides, if one does not know that sati and panna are conditioned and not-self, one then wrongly thinks that all one needs to have is `sincere intention' to follow the Buddha's teachings (wrongly interpreted). But intention plays no part in the development of understanding. If one really understood how insidious and pervasive ignorance and lobha are, one wouldn't be so arrogant (by comparison) as to believe that one can give rise to sati and panna just by *trying*. The only sensible direction to take after realizing how little panna one has is to listen and study more the Teachings. In the process, one might come to also see, how right and therefore useful the commentaries are. The relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha may not appeal to many, or else it is misinterpreted in a way too suggest a "self" making a decision to forego of `theory' to then `apply'. This is because one has judged as the above author seems to have; that the former is `just words' and the latter is the `real thing'. Jack, we start from where we are, very slowly and very gradually. If indeed, we are deluded and wordy, it doesn't mean that we attempt to reach the `ideal' set by our ignorance, namely to `scratch the skin and not the shoe'. If shoes are all that we experience, then *know* that. This is the only way that "learning" and "development" happens. The very ignorance which has propelled us to follow those methods would be the one's that create the `illusion of result'. Don't fear theory, as Ken so much stresses, panna develops from that. Because panna, is *not* the words and explanations read and memorized, but the understanding of those words! And *this* is a wordless reality, with the characteristic of anatta. Like Ken, I would like to encourage you to consider more on what you read here with regard to normal everyday activity, and discourage any compartmentalizing. Don't feel discouraged simply because you can't understand anatta in the hustle and bustle of everyday life and in reaction be misguided into thinking that there is a special time and place for practice. Practice is about gradually knowing better and better our experiences *now*. Ideas about time and place further adds to ignorance and wrong view and takes us further from the goal. Hope I have said something useful. And if I have said anything that doesn't make sense, you or anyone else will correct me. ;-) Metta, Sukin. Ps: I see that Sarah has also responded, I will read her response later, after I have read at least 20 other posts ;-) 31456 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ================================ > In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, > phenomena > are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no > objects. > There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of > subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience > continued. ..... S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. There's always an object. Even lokuttara cittas (supramundane consciousness) has an object - that of nibbana. When wrong view is eradicated, visible objects, sounds and so on are experienced by consciousness just as now. No difference at all. I don't know if you have a hard copy of BB's transl of the Mahaanidaana sutta (which we've discussed a little before), but for those that have it, there's also a useful Appendix at the end with helpful details on the 24 paccaya (conditions). BB comments that the detail from the Patthana "reveals the vast range of the Suttanta principle and prevents simplistic reductionism in interpreting it." He gives a very brief summary of the conditions. Under 'object condition', we read: "An object condition is a phenomenon that serves as a condition for consciousness and its associated mental factors by being taken as their object. The object condition is sixfold as visible object, sound, smell, taste, tactile object, and purely mental object." This is true regardless of any sense of self or not. If it seems, otherwise, perhaps we should question our experience;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31457 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:55am Subject: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Group, Ajahn Jose wishes let everyone know that he is doing fine - he is very tired from the 'well-known' side effects of the chemotherapy, but is feeling much better now. He is confident that he will be well soon and wishes to thank everyone for their metta and support. He sends his blessings to all. metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31458 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:34am Subject: Adios Amigos! ;-0 Howdy All, I found out today that my laptop is too new to be repaired here in Cairo. They don't have the parts or the expertise to fix it. I will have to wait until I return to the US to get it fixed because I don't trust the workmanship here anymore. That means that I won't be able to participate anymore in this group for several months at least. I can't drop in occassionally and respond to a thread because then that upsets people when I don't know the entire backgroud of the thread (like Ken H. most recently). I will need to use my Internet time writing to my parents. So, anyway, have fun, take care, and good wishes to all. Metta, James 31459 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:53am Subject: The Buddha's Teachings On Pure Vipassanaa In Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:10:45 -0000 Subject: The Buddha's Teachings On Pure Vipassanaa In Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear dhamma friends How are you? The following is my answers to Phil regarding the Pali terms in Mahaasatipa.t.thana Suttam. I hope that they are useful for you,too. Suan Lu Zaw ____________-______ _______________ _________ Dear Phil, Nina and all How are you? Phil asked: "I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.")" The Pali term in the first quote is "Pajaanaati" and simply means "to know". The knowers of abhidhamma regard it as the action of the mind. On the other hand, the Pali term in the second quote is "Sampajaanakaarii" where "sampajaana" as a synonym of "paññaa" means wisdom. Thus, sampajaanakaarii would mean someone who is wise / prudent. Phil was also interested to know the significance of the following quote: "Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..."" The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati". We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! The main verb under consideration is "anupassii" from "Kaayaanupassii". Thus, "anupassii" means "someone who observes" and the verb "anupassati, to observe" is the action of the mind. In passing, practitioners who observe their bodily postures are pure practitioners of vipassanaa (see the Pali term "Kaayaanupassii"), and can attain near-jhaana samaadhi (upacaarasamaadhi) at the maximum which is adequate for attainment of any path insight (maggañaa.na) from Sotaapanna level through to the Arahant level. Near-jhaana samaadhi is just before the First Ruupaavacara Jhaana, and thus we know for sure that the Buddha in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam clearly taught how to attain the Arahant awakening without first having Samatha Jhaanas (Ruupaavacara Jhaanas). It is a pity that some people persist in their misguided narrow views on the roles of worldly Jhaanas (Samatha Jhaanas) without making genuine efforts to understand Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam as the Buddha's teachings on purely Vipassanaa practice. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- "Philip" wrote: Hello all I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.") Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed internally" just another phrase that means the same thing as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to this beginner, anyways. I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the translation available at access to insight. Thanks in advance for any guidance here. Metta, Phil ------ End of Forwarded Message 31460 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adios Amigos! ;-0 Howdy James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Howdy All, > > I found out today that my laptop is too new to be repaired here in > Cairo. They don't have the parts or the expertise to fix it. I > will have to wait until I return to the US to get it fixed because I > don't trust the workmanship here anymore. .... I'm really sorry to hear this. I know how much you rely on your laptop, even for teaching. ... That means that I won't > be able to participate anymore in this group for several months at > least. I can't drop in occassionally and respond to a thread > because then that upsets people when I don't know the entire > backgroud of the thread (like Ken H. most recently). .... Don't mind Ken H.....just another Ken with a loud bark, but just as lovable;-) I'll certainly be very glad if you drop in on any of my posts or threads I'm involved in anytime. .... I will need to > use my Internet time writing to my parents. .... Well it's always important to give parents priority and we know how much it means to yours, James. .... >So, anyway, have fun, > take care, and good wishes to all. .... I really hope something works out or someway to fix your computer. In the meantime, pls drop in with occasional notes or comments or just a reference to a sutta is fine - like in SN, if you give a ref, we can check ourselves. Metta, Sarah p.s I didn't mind your last post to me at all. I just smiled;-) Hope you can follow the list even if only able to post occasionally. ======= 31461 From: Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Clinging to views (anecdote) Hi,Phil - Thank you for this, a very nice story, with insightful comments,and interestingly written! With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/18/04 1:16:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hello all. > > I'd like to tell you all a funny story that keeps coming to mind > every day recently, because of the shifts of understanding I've been > having recently. > > There is no need to hold on to views about such a silly thing. > Now, with dhamma, I am learning so much, so quickly. Some of it > very contrary. Sati is a rare experience that rises in a conditioned > way. Sati is a common experience, that starts like indiviual drops of > water from a kettle spout, and then as the kettle is tilted, becomes > a steady pour. (the latter is Ajaan Chah) And except for that brief > bit of bad behaviour last week, I am exercising the > same willingness to yield to which ever view of things I come across. > Of course, that's not what the Buddha taught. He said to doubt > everything. But I think we can doubt, even while yielding. > So that was my funny clinging to views anecdote. And you see how > awash with hostility I was just a few short years ago. (Thanks again > to brahma-viharas for getting me out of that mess.) > Metta, > Phil > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31462 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/18/04 2:37:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Ken, our ordinary state is not one of heightened > >concentration, calm,and mindfulness, and thus our picking up on the > nature of phenomena is not as acute as in a suitably altered state. > There is a degree of cultivation possible during formal meditation > which is not possible at other times, and carrying that out makes > our mindfulness practice at ordinary times more effective. > Obviously, the ideal is to be "practicing" at all times. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > K: Why there is a need for a heightened concentration, calm and > mindfulness. I dont think when Buddha say let us restrain in our six > senses, it required a heigthened state. Likewise when you see the > satipatthana sutta the begining, breathing in long.... rapture... > equanmity, all these are not heigthen state. How does your > perposition being consistent with satipatthana and the six senses. > Other than jhanas and the superpowers attain, I dont think there are > heighten states. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, in all honesty, I find your position on this to be unfathomable. How heightened calm, concentration, and mindfulness would not assist in our knowing of how things are escapes me entirely! It is obvious, and the answer is "for the same reason as biologists use microscopes and astronomers use telescopes and the Buddha (said he) used the 4th jhana." In any case, our positions on this issue are so far apart as to suggest to me the prudence in simply leaving matters with "Each will believe what he believes." -------------------------------------------------------- > > Ken O > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31463 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/18/04 4:49:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >================================ > > In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, > >phenomena > >are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no > >objects. > >There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of > >subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience > >continued. > ..... > S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. There's always an > object. Even lokuttara cittas (supramundane consciousness) has an object - > that of nibbana. When wrong view is eradicated, visible objects, sounds > and so on are experienced by consciousness just as now. No difference at > all. > > ========================== I find this amusing, Sarah, the presentation as granite-engraved edict that there "always is an object." How edifying to know that someone has said so in some book somewhere. You ask for a reference. The reference is my direct experience of no subject and no objects, but experience nonetheless. This is all the reference that I require. (I could go on with a discussion of how, in the unravelling phases of D.O., the cessation of vi~n~nana conditions the cessation of namarupa, and point out how this could only reasonably mean that with the cessation of (sense of) knowing subject there occurs the cessation of known objects, but any such discussion becomes irrelevant when one has directly experienced a state of neither subject nor object.) As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there is, in reality, no knowing subject. Now I'm not clear on what you consider 'object' or 'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to be mutually dependent. If you do, then with no subject there is no object. If, on the other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than "phenomenon" or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and there is content to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as "experience" to be an inadequate and misleading definition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31464 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Adios Amigos! ;-0 Hi, James - In a message dated 3/18/04 5:37:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howdy All, > > I found out today that my laptop is too new to be repaired here in > Cairo. They don't have the parts or the expertise to fix it. I > will have to wait until I return to the US to get it fixed because I > don't trust the workmanship here anymore. That means that I won't > be able to participate anymore in this group for several months at > least. I can't drop in occassionally and respond to a thread > because then that upsets people when I don't know the entire > backgroud of the thread (like Ken H. most recently). I will need to > use my Internet time writing to my parents. So, anyway, have fun, > take care, and good wishes to all. > > Metta, James > ============================ Sorry about this! I would prefer that you did drop in on the group discussions occasionally,even if you don't know full backgound, but if not, please do keep in touch off list. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31465 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Sarah (& Howard), > S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. I think the Kalaka Sutta is pretty relevant to what Howard is talking about. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing.... "When sensing.... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. Regards, Swee Boon 31466 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Ken, Thank you for typing out the passages! And no, I don't have the Dispeller of Delusion. Regards, Swee Boon 31467 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Dear Swee Boon (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/18/04 8:44:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Sarah (& Howard), > > >S: You'd have to give me a reference for these comments. > > I think the Kalaka Sutta is pretty relevant to what Howard is talking > about. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html > > "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't > construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He > doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > > "When hearing.... > > "When sensing.... > > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object > as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe > an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. > > Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all > phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, &cognized -- is 'Such.' > And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ================================= Thank you for the kind and to-the-point assist, Swee Boon! It happens that this sutta is one of my favorites, but I didn't even think of it! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31468 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Htoo, > This is not a comment. But a question. What are the 6 higher > knowledges? They are: (1) wields manifold supranormal powers (mundane), (2) divine ear-element (mundane), (3) knows the awareness of other beings (mundane), (4) recollects his manifold past lives (mundane), (5) sees beings passing away & re-appearing (mundane), and (6) ending of the mental effluents (supramundane), as listed at the end of that very sutta. Regards, Swee Boon 31469 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and (Jeff Brooks) You have to be patient with me, because I am a very long winded person like Sukin :-). I am not here to say I am right or you are wrong. I just like to share with you what I have gather on the little details about jhanas. MN 26, The Noble Search. "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher placed me his pupil on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occured to me: 'This dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reapperance in the base of nothingness" [Base of nothingness is an immaterial state and only can be access through arupa jhanas] Then again Buddha go to Rama and learn neither-preception-nor-non-preception [also another immaterial state and can only be access through arupa jhanas]. Sutta MN 8 Effacement. 4. "It is possible here, Cunda that quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He might think thus: "I am abidhing in effacement." But it is not these attainments that are called "effacement" in the Noble One Disciple: These are called pleasant abidings here and not' in the Noble One's Discipline." Then later in the sutta Buddha described the effacement like not to be cruel, no killing etc... (44 in all) Then again in The Noble Search MN 26 at para 33, As to those recluses and brahims who are not tie to the five cords of sensual pleasure, who are not infatuated with them or utterly commited to them, who use them seeing the danger in them and understanding the escape from them, it may undersand of them.......... then to para 35, Again with the stilling of applied thought etc... is all about jhanas. By the above quotes, I established that without insight, jhana is basically useless. It is only together with insight with jhanas that our mind become invisible to Maras. Then again it is not about development of jhanas first, it is always point to development of sila, restraining of the six senses that comes first, before jhanas. So mindfulness and insight are vehicles before we talk about jhanas. Even if one look at Mindfullness suttas, there are always after mental objects or consciousness, it is the establishment of mindfullness of the five aggregates before one enter jhanas. We can also conclude, without insight there will no understanding of dhamma, so attaining 4th jhanas will not make one more insightful or clearer or sharper or more comprehenable. Ken O 31470 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Swee Boon Since you dont have it, you are most welcome to can ask for more details again and again, and I will type it out for you. You help me in doing some dhamma dana ;-) - Chicken soup for the Soul. Other than Visud, I think Dispeller of Delusion (two books in PTS) is a good book to get, easy to read and with lots of goodies (it has dependent origination, right effort etc). Ken O p.s. I dont earn commission from PTS ;-). 31471 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Sarah and Howard It is just plain anatta. It is not about even about there is no objects etc. Doesn't construe an object as seen, means there is no I that is seeing or a self concept. He does not construe an unseen - that shows the another extreme - nihilistic. He doesn't construe a seer - Anatta ;-) Ken O 31472 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/18/04 9:33:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard > > It is just plain anatta. It is not about even about there is no > objects etc. > > Doesn't construe an object as seen, means there is no I that is > seeing or a self concept. > > He does not construe an unseen - that shows the another extreme - > nihilistic. > > He doesn't construe a seer - Anatta ;-) > > > Ken O > ======================== Did you ever notice how we worldlings tend to exclude parts of things we find unappealing? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31473 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard > ======================== > Did you ever notice how we worldlings tend to exclude parts > of things we find unappealing? ;-) K: It comes as a package ;-) Ken O 31474 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi,Ken (and Jeff) - Jeff can speak for himself on this. I, for one, have never said nor do I believe that jhanas are sufficient for liberation. So, as far as I am involved here, this is a straw man. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/18/04 9:14:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard and (Jeff Brooks) > > You have to be patient with me, because I am a very long winded > person like Sukin :-). I am not here to say I am right or you are > wrong. I just like to share with you what I have gather on the > little details about jhanas. > > MN 26, The Noble Search. > "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher placed me his pupil on an equal > footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it > occured to me: 'This dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to > dispassion, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to > Nibbana, but only to reapperance in the base of nothingness" [Base > of nothingness is an immaterial state and only can be access through > arupa jhanas] > Then again Buddha go to Rama and learn > neither-preception-nor-non-preception [also another immaterial state > and can only be access through arupa jhanas]. > > Sutta MN 8 Effacement. > 4. "It is possible here, Cunda that quite secluded from sensual > pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon > and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and > sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He > might think thus: "I am abidhing in effacement." But it is not these > attainments that are called "effacement" in the Noble One Disciple: > These are called pleasant abidings here and not' in the Noble One's > Discipline." > Then later in the sutta Buddha described the effacement like not to > be cruel, no killing etc... (44 in all) > > Then again in The Noble Search MN 26 > at para 33, As to those recluses and brahims who are not tie to the > five cords of sensual pleasure, who are not infatuated with them or > utterly commited to them, who use them seeing the danger in them and > understanding the escape from them, it may undersand of > them.......... > then to para 35, Again with the stilling of applied thought etc... > is all about jhanas. > > By the above quotes, I established that without insight, jhana is > basically useless. It is only together with insight with jhanas that > our mind become invisible to Maras. Then again it is not about > development of jhanas first, it is always point to development of > sila, restraining of the six senses that comes first, before jhanas. > So mindfulness and insight are vehicles before we talk about jhanas. > Even if one look at Mindfullness suttas, there are always after > mental objects or consciousness, it is the establishment of > mindfullness of the five aggregates before one enter jhanas. We can > also conclude, without insight there will no understanding of dhamma, > so attaining 4th jhanas will not make one more insightful or clearer > or sharper or more comprehenable. > > > Ken O > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31475 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thanks for this message. I think it would be skillful to keep these eight principles/criteria in mind in recognizing the Dhamma. Going through the study guide is one way to get to know these eight principles such that one can determine for him or herself whether some qualities one may know are the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > > "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > > > > to passion, not to dispassion; > > to being fettered, not to being unfettered; > > to accumulating, not to shedding; > > to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; > > to discontent, not to contentment; > > to entanglement, not to seclusion; > > to laziness, not to aroused persistence; > > to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': > > You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the > > Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' > .... > S: In other words, these states lead to continuation of the cycle. > Accumulating (accayaaya). Mahapajapati Gotami attained arahantship on > hearing this sutta. She understood the deep meaning. Her lifestyle as a > nun didn't change, but her wisdom fully penetrated the full meaning of > `being fettered', `entanglement', `burdensome' and so on. These all refer > to mental states. > .... > > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead: > > > > > > to dispassion, not to passion; > <...> > > > > > > So it is based on these eight pairs of principles or criteria, one > > can examine for him or herself whether something is the Dhamma, the > > Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. As I see it, 'these qualities' > > in the passage has much broader meaning than 'what is being said.' > .... > S: I agree. We could discuss each one, looking at the Pali term. We've > already discussed the meaning of seclusion (pavivekaaya) before. > .... > > They include one's actions and conduct, skillful or unskillful. > > They also include the principle in accordance or not in accordance > > to the principle of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. > .... > S:As on the discussion of guarding the senses, I see them as referring to > mental states which of course may lead to actions and conduct. In > Mahapajapati Gotami's case, she understand and eradicated the most subtle > attachments. > .... > > The objective for this study is twofold: > > > > First, to know these eight principles. > > > > Secondly, to apply these eight principles. > .... > S:How are they known and applied? Again,when you mention `apply', it > sounds like something to be done rather than understood. > .... > > The study guide provides guidance and structure in this study with > > passages from the discourses. We can discuss and verify these > > principles in relation to the discourse passages. > .... > S:Good. Should be then consider these `principles' further, one at a time? > .... > >We can also come > > up with our own examples (such as thoughts about Mel Gibson in > > shower) such that we can apply these eight principles. If you like, > > we can also examine some doctrines in the Abhidhamma Pitaka with > > respect to the eight principles. > .... > S:The single most important point is to understand these qualities as > anatta, arising or not arising according to conditions as others have > said. I don't understand Mahapajapati to have `applied' anything, but to > have understood the true meaning of the words. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 31476 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sarah, Sukin and all, There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In your system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential knowledge? Am I incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential knowledge? And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? Jack 31477 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:00am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O, Indeed the body is destined to die and decay and reflection on this theme is skillful, leading to dispassion in body! There is simply great danger in sensual pleasures! You wrote: There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. Basically I think in order to keep control, one must be mindful of our mental objects and mind. Please elaborate more on that! Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor > > > > > With respect to the eight principles/criteria, what do you think > > are the qualities present in these sutta passages such that one > may > > definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is > > the Teacher's instruction'? In particular, for that one may know > > in these sutta passages , by which criteria may one definitely > hold > > thus? > > k: It is not easy at times to say this is vinaya or this is Teacher > instructions because Vinaya is also Teacher instruction. > Nevertheless let deal specifically with 1.4 and 1.5. > > <<'What do you assume of any essence, > here in this cemetery grower, filled with corpses, > this body destined to break up? > What do you see when you look at me, > you who are out of your mind?'>> > > < when devoid of dhammas doesn't function. > When, devoid of dhammas, it doesn't function, > in what will the mind there make its home? > Like a mural you've seen, painted on a wall, > smeared with yellow orpiment, > there your vision has been distorted, > meaningless your human perception. > Like an evaporated mirage, > like a tree of gold in a dream, > like a magic show in the midst of a crowd -- > you run blind after what is unreal. > Resembling a ball of sealing wax, > set in a hollow, > with a bubble in the middle > and bathed with tears, > eye secretions are born there too: > The parts of the eye > are rolled all together > in various ways.'>> > > IMHO - These two part indicate the teacher instruction in dispassion > with the body. The body is destined to die and decay. We can > comtemplating cemetary, consider and reflecting that body is make up > of the four elements or comtemplate as body parts. All these are > found in satipatthana sutta. > > As for 1.5 - the significant instructions will be > < much as glance at her or say even a word.>> > > There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. > Basically I think in order to keep control, one must be mindful of > our mental objects and mind. > > > Ken O 31478 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:06am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, > And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing > it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. You can't try. Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? Non-action. Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue them. Regards, Swee Boon 31479 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:11am Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Jon, Thanks for sharing your thought. I would think that it is impossible for one to eradicate greed, aversion, and delusion without keeping control of one's faculties. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor & Ken O > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > > > Thank you for your detail answer. From passage § 1.5., what the > > woman did in front of Ven. Anuruddha obviously leads to passion, > > not dispassion. One thing I see as the Vinaya that leads to > > dispassion, > > as Ven. Anuruddha demonstrated, is 'keeping control of his > > faculties, didn't as much as glance at her or say even a word.' > > I'm wondering if this the same Ven Anuruddha as the famous arahant > (and cousin of the Buddha). If so, the control over the faculties > would be explained by the fact that all tendency to akusala had been > eradicated. > > Jon 31480 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi,Swee Boon (and Jack) - In a message dated 3/18/04 12:11:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. > There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to > control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there > isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. > You can't try. > ========================= The statements "There is no self that controls anything" and "There can't be control" are not equivalent - the first does not imply the second. Analogously, there is no self that sees anything, yet there is seeing; there is no self that tastes anything yet there is tasting; and so on, for all the sense domains. There is no absolute control of things, but volition arises and has influence - and that does not require a self. Taking 'control' to mean merely 'influence', what is true as I see it is that there is no self who controls anything, but there *is* control. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31481 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:34am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) § 3.1. Jenta: I was drunk with the intoxication of my birth, wealth, & sovereignty. Drunk with the intoxication of my body's build, coloring, & form, I wandered about, regarding no one as my equal or better, foolish, arrogant, haughty, my banner held high. I -- disrespectful, arrogant, proud -- bowed down to no one, not even mother, father, or those commonly held in respect. Then -- seeing the ultimate leader, supreme, foremost of charioteers, like a blazing sun, arrayed with a squadron of monks -- casting away pride & intoxication through an awareness serene & clear, I bowed down my head to him, supreme among all living beings. Haughtiness & contempt have been abandoned -- rooted out -- the conceit "I am" is extracted, all forms of pride, destroyed. [Thag VI.9] § 3.2. Sister Vimala: Intoxicated with my complexion figure, beauty, & fame; haughty with youth, I despised other women. Adorning this body embellished to delude foolish men, I stood at the door to the brothel: a hunter with snare laid out. I showed off my ornaments, and revealed many a private part. I worked my manifold magic, laughing out loud at the crowd. Today, wrapped in a double cloak, my head shaven, having wandered for alms, I sit at the foot of a tree and attain the state of no-thought. All ties -- human & divine -- have been cut. Having cast off all effluents, cooled am I, unbound. [Thig V.2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding 31482 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/18/04 11:11:46 AM Central Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing > it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. You can't try Swee Boon, There is no self but there is right intention and right effort. The suttas are full of instructions that, as I understand it, we should try to follow. Take the 8-Fold Path for instance. I would think we are supposed to try not to kill, lie, misuse intoxicants, etc. Yes, at a point in our development, we are to leave all striving behind. But, I think the Buddha gave instructions that also apply to earlier stages in our mental development. And, I think we, unless we are pretty far advanced, go back and forth daily in stages of our development. That is, there are times when we just have to try to follow the precepts and times we can just do something without striving. Another way to say it is that striving is like using a thorn to remove a thorn in our skin. Once we have removed the thorn in our skin, we throw both thorns away. Jack 31483 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) Hi, Victor - In a message dated 3/18/04 12:40:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding ============================ Wonderful, Victor, thank you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31484 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:50am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) Hi all, Couple questions came to mind when I read passages § 3.1 and § 3.2: 1. What does it mean by 'shedding'? 2. What is it that was being shed? 3. What is the Pali original for the word 'shedding'? It seems to me that by shedding, one rids, discards, cast off something. In passage § 3.1., it seems to me that the shedding of haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. And that kind of shedding is again reflected in passage § 3.2. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 3.1. > Jenta: > I was > drunk with the intoxication > of my birth, wealth, & sovereignty. > Drunk with the intoxication > of my body's build, coloring, & form, > I wandered about, > regarding no one > as my equal or better, > foolish, arrogant, haughty, > my banner held high. > I -- disrespectful, arrogant, proud -- > bowed down to no one, > not even mother, > father, > or those commonly held > in respect. > Then -- seeing the ultimate leader, > supreme, foremost of charioteers, > like a blazing sun, > arrayed with a squadron of monks -- > casting away pride & intoxication > through an awareness serene & clear, > I bowed down > my > head > to him, supreme > among all living beings. > > Haughtiness & contempt > have been abandoned > -- rooted out -- > the conceit "I am" is extracted, > all forms of pride, destroyed. > > > [Thag VI.9] > > > § 3.2. > Sister Vimala: > Intoxicated with my complexion > figure, beauty, & fame; > haughty with youth, > I despised other women. > Adorning this body > embellished to delude foolish men, > I stood at the door to the brothel: > a hunter with snare laid out. > I showed off my ornaments, > and revealed many a private part. > I worked my manifold magic, > laughing out loud at the crowd. > Today, wrapped in a double cloak, > my head shaven, > having wandered for alms, > I sit at the foot of a tree > and attain the state of no-thought. > All ties -- human & divine -- have been cut. > Having cast off all effluents, > cooled am I, unbound. > > > [Thig V.2] > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding 31485 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:55am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.1, § 3.2) Hi all, Reading the both passages again, it seems to me that it is also the intoxication that was being shed. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > Couple questions came to mind when I read passages § 3.1 and § 3.2: > > 1. What does it mean by 'shedding'? > 2. What is it that was being shed? > 3. What is the Pali original for the word 'shedding'? > > It seems to me that by shedding, one rids, discards, cast off > something. In passage § 3.1., it seems to me that the shedding of > haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride > is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. And that kind > of shedding is again reflected in passage § 3.2. > > Metta, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > § 3.1. > > Jenta: > > I was > > drunk with the intoxication > > of my birth, wealth, & sovereignty. > > Drunk with the intoxication > > of my body's build, coloring, & form, > > I wandered about, > > regarding no one > > as my equal or better, > > foolish, arrogant, haughty, > > my banner held high. > > I -- disrespectful, arrogant, proud -- > > bowed down to no one, > > not even mother, > > father, > > or those commonly held > > in respect. > > Then -- seeing the ultimate leader, > > supreme, foremost of charioteers, > > like a blazing sun, > > arrayed with a squadron of monks -- > > casting away pride & intoxication > > through an awareness serene & clear, > > I bowed down > > my > > head > > to him, supreme > > among all living beings. > > > > Haughtiness & contempt > > have been abandoned > > -- rooted out -- > > the conceit "I am" is extracted, > > all forms of pride, destroyed. > > > > > > [Thag VI.9] > > > > > > § 3.2. > > Sister Vimala: > > Intoxicated with my complexion > > figure, beauty, & fame; > > haughty with youth, > > I despised other women. > > Adorning this body > > embellished to delude foolish men, > > I stood at the door to the brothel: > > a hunter with snare laid out. > > I showed off my ornaments, > > and revealed many a private part. > > I worked my manifold magic, > > laughing out loud at the crowd. > > Today, wrapped in a double cloak, > > my head shaven, > > having wandered for alms, > > I sit at the foot of a tree > > and attain the state of no-thought. > > All ties -- human & divine -- have been cut. > > Having cast off all effluents, > > cooled am I, unbound. > > > > > > [Thig V.2] > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding 31486 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:02am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 3. Shedding (§ 3.3) Hi all, Passage § 3.3 is rather long, and I have yet to read it through more closely. Please share your understanding on this passage in relation to the principle/criteria on shedding. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#shedding Metta, Victor 31487 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: charact. of rupas, no 1. charact. of rupas, no 1. Characteristics inherent in all Rúpas Rúpas do not arise singly, they arise in different groups (kalåpas). The different groups of rúpa which arise do not fall away immediately. A sabhåva rúpa, a rúpa with its own distinct nature of characteristic lasts as long as the duration of seventeen cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another. With regard to the arising and falling away of rúpa, four different aspects can be discerned which have been classified as four lakkhana rúpas (lakkhana means characteristic): arising or origination (upacaya) continuity or development (santati) decay or ageing (jaratå) falling away or impermanence (aniccatå) These four lakkhana rúpas which are themselves rúpas without their own distinct nature, asabhåva rúpas, are characteristics inherent in all sabhåva rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature. These four characteristics are different: the arising of rúpa, its development, its decay and its falling away. Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas decay, jaratå rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, the moment of its falling away. We do not notice that the rúpas of our body fall away and that time and again new rúpas are produced which fall away again. So long as we are alive, kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition produce rúpas and thus our bodily functions can continue. The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch II, 327) speaks in a general, conventional sense about the four characteristics of rúpa. It does not deal with the four characteristics of rúpa which denote the arising, the continuity, the decay and the falling away during the period one group of rúpas lasts. It states that there is the arising of groups of rúpas at the first moment of life, initial arising, ³integration² or ³accumulation², and that there is after that the subsequent arising of groups of rúpas, ³continuity². Nina. Search. Compare. Save. 31488 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Larry and Ken O, I appreciate Larry's good question and Ken's answer. May I add something? If nama and rupa are not known through insight, their impermanence cannot be realized and thus they cannot be seen as dukkha. For example, seeing is different from thinking of what we see. We are confused as to what nama is and what rupa is. If this confusion continues, we shall stay immersed in the cycle. Lobha, the cause of dukkha can only be understood by awareness and understanding of lobha of this moment. Not lobha of the past or the future. When there is ignorance we do not know what the right Path is and what the wrong Path. Then there is no way to develop insight and realize the first and the second noble Truth. And no way to reach the goal, nibbana, the end of dukkha. op 18-03-2004 03:04 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: (snipped) IMHO it > is not understanding that craving for existence, worldlings like me > still wonder in cycles. So that is why the citta for rebirth linking > is always lobha-mula citta (lobha + moha). Buddha seeks enlighetment > bc he knows this craving is the initial impetus that drive us all to > the mass of suffering, if there is no rebirth, where is there ageing, > sickness and death. So the crux is getting rid of craving of > existence ;-), so specifically 4NT and not others. 31489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 18-03-2004 03:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: L: If groups are concepts does space separate concepts? N: Another rupa space has the function of being in between groups so that they are distinct. We cannot say that space separates concepts, it separates rupas, rupas that are holding together in clusters, but they are as real as can be! It is useful to know that groups originated by the four factors support one another. There is no owner of the body, but intricate factors make it function and move around. Why do we learn all those details about groups? The goal is detachment, detachment from I or mine. If we keep on asking ourselves: are groups concepts or realities, many problems and doubts are bound to arise. At this moment we can learn what coarse rupas are, like seeing that arises all the time, or visible object. We learn details just to know more about conditions, and this will lead to detachment. It is helpful to know that there are four factors that originate different rupas, and that rupas do not arise just by themselves, but together with other rupas; that the four great Elements are never lacking, that different groups are holding together. You do not need to think of groups or use the word group. The fact that they are clutching together in groups does not make them less real: they still have each their own characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, don't they? If we do not forget the goal and if we begin to learn more about the rupas that can be experienced at this moment, doubts will disappear. L: Neither of you has ever experienced a group while I _only_ experience groups. When you look at this email what do you see, one dot of light after another? N: Let us talk more about seeing. When you close your eyes and then open them, is there any difference? Through eyesense only colour or visible objects appears. We do not think of dots, that is thinking conditioned by what we know from science. Noticing a whole, an image, is not seeing but thinking. You say that you just experience groups, but here, group or mass is used in a different sense, it is not kalapa. You mean the image of a whole. You cannot see kalapas nor touch them, too slight, and they last only seventeen moments of citta (except the intimations). Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking, they are all elements devoid of self. We do not define all the time what is seen, we do not think all the time, this is a tree, this is a tree. There are also moments of just seeing, no thinking. You may believe that you see a particular object, like a tree, but is there not also background colour? We do not have to think of tree or background, but all that is visible can be seen. A person is not seen. Impossible that a person impinges on eyesense, how could he contact eyesense? But to apply this knowledge is difficult, because insight has to be developed. The same in the case of hearing. You think of sound of traffic, but you do not think all the time, this is sound of traffic. There are also moments of just hearing, hearing of what impinges on the earsense. Many moments pass unnoticed, but since we are discussing such realities, sometimes a moment of understanding may arise. That is the way to begin, and you will see, doubts just disappear. I feel that it is very useful, also for myself, to discuss the above subjects. Welcome if you have more questions on seeing, hearing, etc. Nina. P.S. I do not intend to translate more of the Tiika on lightness. Meanwhile, welcome if you have more on lightness. As to the next subject: char of rupas, I have a lot about this in my Rupas, too long for one Email, it will be in four parts. I avoid any long Emails. 31490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Dear Philip, op 17-03-2004 23:40 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >I think it's good for me to stay open to both ways of seeing sati. N: Yes, try them out. PH: Quotes: Lobha can come in very > easily. > P: This I can see, and it is why I admire your way of practicing. > Rigorous and pure. I think I am getting better at questioning role of > self in anything I do. N: Don't give me any credit. I am just learning, ups and downs!! P:The process of unravelling the tight hold of > self has definitely begun in earnest. So I'll be careful however I > cultivate sati that it does not become another exericse in self- > preservation the way my brahma-viharas was. N: But together with satipatthana the development of the brahma-viharas becomes most effective, most helpful in your dealings with others. Speaking of practice, I find the Kindred Sayings IV (Salayatanavagga) very impressive and straightforward. We learn about all the objects appearing through the six doorways. It is good to combine Sutta and Abhidhamma, the Abhidhamma helps to understand the deep meaning of the sutta. Nina. 31491 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is Vipassana? & Keeping track of daughters (was 'Unknown') Hi Sarah, There are different ways to do aerobic exercise. If one has knee problem and finds running on threadmill not suitable, he or she can also try swimming. If you have knee problem and cannot sit in half-lotus or full-lotus or even loosely cross-leg posture, then sitting on chair with back straight would also be fine. The point is to keep the body in a rather still posture to calm the bodily and mental fabrications. Discernment requires a mind that is calm, purified, refined. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > Have you ever worked out by running on a threadmill? > <...> > > To do aerobic exercise, one exercise one's body. > .... > S:I didn't forget the treadmill....I agree it's a good kind of exercise > for those who don't have knee problems like me. > > Now if you tell me your aim is to exercise your body and to get fit, I'd > say `go ahead' as I do to my friends at the gym. However, if you were to > tell me your purpose was to realize the 4NT, I'd say `wait a moment. Show > me the connection'. > .... > >To meditate, one > > develops and cultivates one's mind. Running on the threadmill might > > look silly or simply wrong to some, but there is a purpose for doing > > so. Just like there is a purpose for meditation: to develop and > > cultivate one's mind. > .... > S: Here, I assume you're referring to `formal' or `sitting' meditation. > > Again, if you were to tell me that your purpose was to have a quiet break > in the day, to develop your breathing practice for health benefits or > yoga, or to give the keyboard a rest, I'd say `go ahead' as I do to my > yoga friends. > > However, when you say that the purpose is to develop and cultivate your > mind, again, I'd say `wait a moment. Show me the connection'. How can 'any > meditation technique' result in wisdom and knowledge of the 4NT, just > because this is one's aim? [snip] 31492 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack In a message dated 3/18/04 3:35:17 AM Central Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: Jack I would like to comment on this part of your post. Ken O. has already responded, and I like his post very much. I had written a response yesterday, but decided against posting it. But now I am inspired by Ken, so I write a new one. Sukin, I have read your post several times. While I hold a different understanding on almost all the points you present, I don't have time right now to respond. I will try and cut your points down to a more manageable number and respond back in the near future. I didn't want you to think I was being rude and not responding. Jack 31493 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta , the processes. Hi Christine, A vivid and neat explanation of the processes. A good reminder as well! Appreciating, Nina. op 17-03-2004 22:01 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > It's called the 'One by One as they Arise' method. I open my hard > copy of The Great Discourse on Causation p.1 of 43 of the > Introduction, visible object fills my sight. After trillions of > sense and mind door processes, I recognise a letter. After a whole > lot of other mystifying processes, a finger presses on a keyboard and > Lo! the very same letter appears on the screen. [repeat this about > 944,000 times] then go through more mystifiying processes to connect > to the internet and send to dsg. Cheaper than pdf. :-) 31494 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sukin and all, Instead of responding to your post point by point, I picked what I thought to be the important points and tried to answer. I think you are misreading the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO). DO doesn’ t begin with ignorance and end with decay and death. It is a cycle. Each element influences the next with decay and death influencing ignorance as the wheel turns. Mental formations that occur influence the next cycle’s ignorance element. Thoughts, intentions and the decisions we make are very important and can be a problem. I think we can know our perversions without the use of symbols. If we are mindful, we see how X causes Y, a perversion causes suffering. We don’t have to use a symbol for either X or Y. It is like riding a bike. We learn by seeing how a given action causes certain results. We don’t use symbols in learning how to ride a bike. Symbols make it easier, in my opinion, but aren’t necessary to understand how a perversion causes suffering. Intention does play a part in the development of understanding. Intention drives kamma. Past kamma causes the first elements of a Cycle of DO up to vedana. Past kamma can influence the mental formations that occur after vedana in a cycle of DO. So, intention does influence understanding. In this case, I am defining understanding as insight into the causation of suffering. I am reading your post to say that experiencing an ultimate has to involve a concept. I don’t think that is what the Buddha had in mind. I think it is very difficult to develop understanding if we only scratch the shoe, i.e., don’t go right to reality and compare it with our concepts. Even if it is possible, it is not the method suggested by the Buddha who continually suggested that his teachings were to be tested by our own actual experience. You seem to be implying the opposite, i.e., actual experience isn't required. Sorry if I misunderstood you in any of the points addressed above. jack 31495 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, If I don't see an image, what do I see? I certainly don't see only red then only blue. Furthermore, I think it is not useful to isolate experience, focusing only on one little touch separate from all else. If we don't see relationships we won't be aware of conditional relations. Without an awareness of conditional relations there is no cessation. Conditional relations is a supramundane mind-door object but they could also be a mundane mind-door object. As far as I know concept is not an object of mundane insight; so conditional relations (and other relations such as complex external objects) are not concepts when they are objects of mundane insight. Larry 31496 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Vism.XIV 66 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 66. 20. 'Growth of matter' has the characteristic of setting up. Its function is to make material instances emerge in the first instance. It is manifested as launching; or it is manifested as the completed state. Its proximate cause is grown matter. 21. 'Continuity of matter' has the characteristic of occurrence. Its function is to anchor. It is manifested as non-interruption. Its proximate cause is matter that is anchored. Both of these are terms for matter at its birth; but owing to difference of mode, and according to [different persons'] susceptibility to instruction, the teaching in the summary (uddesa) in the Dhammasa.ngani is given as 'growth and continuity' (cf. Dhs. 596); but since there is here no difference in meaning, consequently in the description (niddesa) of these words, 'the setting up of the sense-bases is the growth of matter' and 'the growth of matter is the continuity of matter' is said (Dhs. 642, 732, 865). 31497 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 2 Dear Christine, Thank you very much for your one by one method on this. Nina. op 18-03-2004 09:04 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Here are the final paragraphs of the section in Bhikkhu Bodhi's > intro. on 'Dependent Arising'. 31498 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Nina, Well and beautifully said, I think--most important and well paraphrased, perfectly consistent with the suttas and the abhidhamma. How often does anyone simply state that lobha is the cause of dukkha, as the Buddha did so plainly? And how great the implication of this to all dhammas and to Dhamma? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI > Lobha, the cause of dukkha can only be understood by awareness and > understanding of lobha of this moment. Not lobha of the past or the future. > When there is ignorance we do not know what the right Path is and what the > wrong Path. Then there is no way to develop insight and realize the first > and the second noble Truth. And no way to reach the goal, nibbana, the end > of dukkha. 31499 From: Eznir Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:44pm Subject: Vacisankhara Dear Friends, Read what NASA has to say on what determines speech. NASA Develops System To Computerize Silent, 'Subvocal Speech' http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040318072412.htm eznir 31500 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:14am Subject: Questions on Santirana-citta Dear Group, I received the following email from a Dhamma friend, and have her permission to ask these questions on dsg. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ==================================== Hi Christine, I have posted to this group before and I think Nina knows of our study. I lost contact for a while due to a move to the country. I would be pleased if you could post these questions for the dsg to answer and Nina , if she would like to. Some questions have been asked from our group about the santirana -citta. These questions which come out of our study of Abhidhamma in Daily life, chapter 17, Doors and Physical dases of Citta. On page 111 of Ninas text, in the last sentence of paragraph 3, Nina states; Santirana - Citta has different functions when performed through different doorways.... We are still confused as to how investigating consciousness can perform functions other than investigating! From the next two paragraphs on the same page. According to the text, if Santirana-citta is accompanied by somanassa, it can perform the function of santirana through 5 doors and tadarammana through 6 doors. However, if Santirana is accompanied by upekkha, it can perform santirana, tadarammana, patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti!THis is three more functions with no explanation of why. Could it be that if Sanirana is accompanied by somanassa you have already reached enlightenment where cuti, bhavanga and patisandhi no longer apply? We would be interested to recieve some comments on this. Metta, Lynn 31501 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] What do you do with gratitude? Hello all, Browsing around back near the msg that Christine linked to the past study groups, came across this exchange and thought it lovely, and interesting. In my case, I would have never thought of gratitude. I would have immediately begun spinning concepts to exploit the beauty of the evning and make it mine. I remember about a month ago I was cycling under a full moon, down by the sea, and noticed how the moonlight was glimmering off the crest of each wave for a moment before it broke, and then again in the remnant of the wave lapping up on shore. It was very beautiful, but instead of enjoying it or feeling grateful, my mind rushed off on a conceptual journey, thinking of the implications of the sunlight bouncing off the moon to the wave to my eye to my brain, and wondering what I could tell people at the discussion groups to sound clever. The next time I come across something beautiful in nature, a cue for silent gratitude might arise because of this exchange. Thank you to you both. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 7/3/03 4:06:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > Dear group, > > > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, > > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide > > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on > > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude > > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > =============================== > I know the feeling. Perhaps the gratitude should go to the past > actions of yourself and others that led to these circumstances (or, as Judaism says, > that "brought you to this day"), and to the Buddha and other great (but > lesser) teachers whose teachings you have come across in this and previous > lifetimes and which helped in making you open to such appreciation. > > With metta, > Howard 31502 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack and Sarah, I wanted to address this point, but being in a hurry to get to the end of the post, I forgot about it. Jack asked: There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In your system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential knowledge? Am I incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential knowledge? And, trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves trying and shouldn't be attempted? Sukin: We as worldlings are never precise. In worldly matters, we get by because everyone is satisfied with close estimations, or are happily deluded. In general, agreed upon convention and the terms used to express day to day activities allows us to get along socially, and there is never any concern about precise mental states. Of course there is no need to be too critical about this; here language generally serves its purpose. Worldlings and enlightened folks both use it. However when it comes to dhamma, we have to try to be as precise as possible. It is impossible to be perfectly so, because dhammas are "realities", and we worldlings don't really know these dhammas. But at least we can know that we don't know, and can consult the texts! ;-) From a particular perspective the terms, `theory' and `practice' are both aspects of panna cetasika. The latter however, is just precisely those moments when the former is experienced directly, i.e. moments of satipatthana or any of the higher knowledge. But the way most of us generally view these two concepts is vague, and always in relation to a "self". But dhammas arise and perform their functions by conditions regardless of whether we know or are aware of them. To decide to `apply' or `practice' may not in fact involve any real application at all! But we would like to think that it does, because we have followed those certain steps which we believe "application and practice" involves. But practice (patipatti) has its own conditions all of which is not-self. And the `self' can't decide to apply! So there is no one who "converts conceptual knowledge to experiential knowledge". And the decision to "study" is also not like a ritualistic activity. When there is any understanding that indeed the panna is very weak, that the real characteristic of reality so illusive, that understanding does not come about simply by "trying", then one realizes that what needs is a firm foundation in the basics, namely pariyatti. Chanda can then be conditioned to arise to read or listen more. And when indeed conditions are right, for example, knowing about the difference between `visible object' and `thinking', at any moment sati can arise to see for an instance, this fact. This will be followed immediately by, greed and the usual deluded way of experience. And there may never be another experience of this sort again in a long, long time. However, the understanding remains, (with the help of wise friends to maintain and boost such an understanding), and one concludes that this is how it is supposed to be. And that it matches with understanding other aspects of the teachings, particularly about anatta and conditionality. So Jack it is all about conditions, if one understands this firmly, faith can be aroused knowing that dhammas arise and fall in accordance with its own laws. This realization itself may be an instance of `practice' more potent than any `trying', and it may also be an example of the difference between right and wrong effort. And we need patience and courage here as much as we need them anywhere else. Sorry for another long post. I am trying to do my best. ;-) I hope Sarah would also comment on this. Metta, Sukin. 31503 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:57am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, Jack and Howard, Swee Boon, I don't think your paraphrase fits with my thoughts. I would put them another way. Swee Boon wrote: There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. You can't try. Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? Non-action. Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue them. Sukin: All dhammas arise and fall by conditions, including volition. Being able to control these conditions is an illusion. There are only dhammas arising and falling, no `self' anywhere. `You can't select', not only because there is no self, but because citta taking on any object is conditioned and not up to any non-existent `chooser'. The problem in `attempting' is not just `self-view', but that *this* is self-defeating. Ignorance associated with `aiming for results' mistakes akusala for kusala, wrong view for right view and so instead of developing more panna, one is going the wrong path. I agree with the `entrenchment' ;-), it can happen at anytime. One lesson I learnt from my recent discussion with Ken O, is that even though both of us may be right on a certain level, even a slight clinging to either of our positions, could make the `truth' that we hold, momentarily sterile. As to your last remark, there is no idea that `the goal would pursue' me, because there is no `me', waiting to receive anything. Whether one is moving toward the goal or not, whether the practice is right or not, it is all contained in this one moment of arising and falling. If there is panna, then the movement is toward the goal, if not, then it is not. And from what you see here, even viewing it as a `story' a `whole', do you not see that the activities of some of us here is quite the opposite of what you say? ;-) Howard, there *is* volition; however it simply performs its function of coordinating and directing the associated cetasikas. But it is as conditioned by the other cetasikas as they are by it. It is chief when it comes to kusala and akusala actions, but this does not mean that it is not conditioned by the other factors. The problem is that we don't realize that cetana is *already* conditioned by the time we have any idea about it. And any attempt to change or direct the course of our actions is also *already* determined by so many factors. And lobha and ignorance is waiting to distort our perception, giving the illusion of `knowing' and `doing the right thing', when in fact it is not! So there is *no* control! Hope I have not misunderstood you. Metta, Sukin. 31504 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 0:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, You said: There is no self but there is right intention and right effort. The suttas are full of instructions that, as I understand it, we should try to follow. Take the 8-Fold Path for instance. I would think we are supposed to try not to kill, lie, misuse intoxicants, etc. Sukin: This is from the Nyanatiloka dictionary, magga: 'path'. 1. For the 4 supermundane paths (lokuttara-magga), s. ariya-puggala - 2. The Eightfold Path (atthangika-magga) is the path leading to the extinction of suffering, i.e. the last of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), namely: Wisdom (paññá) III. 1. Right view (sammá-ditthi) 2. Right thought (sammá-sankappa) Morality (síla) I. 3. Right speech (sammá-vácá) 4. Right bodily action (sammá-kammanta) 5. Right livelihood (sammá-ájíva) Concentration (samádhi) II. 6. Right effort (sammá-váyáma) 7. Right mindfulness (sammá-sati) 8. Right concentration (sammá-samádhi) I have seen the second factor Right Thought, translated as Right Intention, so maybe you too have come across the same translation, hence the misunderstanding? As I said in my last post to you, I believe that our understanding is quite vague, hence the need to be as precise as possible when trying to understand dhamma. Six persons, A, B, C, X, Y, and Z, all understand the dhamma at their own level. Would each one having the sincere intention to realize the goal all reach there, eventually? Dhammas go by their own law, can akusala lead to kusala result, and can ignorance lead to panna? What if one of these completely misunderstand the dhamma (a Mahayanist for example), what would it mean for him to *develop* panna? Nothing!! Would the effort he put into say, meditating ten hours a day, bear any positive fruit, i.e. with respect to following the Buddha's path? Would you consider that `Right effort'? Right effort must arise with at least four other rights, Right View, Right thought, Right Mindfulness and Right concentration. And all of these are anatta. It is not so difficult to see that Right View is the leader. Whatever choice we make in outlook and practice, it all is influenced by an underlying view. If panna arose right now, it is just that, it *underrstands*. There is no resultant idea of `controlling conditions'. It may see the danger of akusala and correspondingly the benefit of kusala, but this will condition what it will, effort through mind, speech or body, at *that* very moment when the situation commands. There is no idea about the future, because this will be in relation to an `illusory self' existing now and will continue to be in the future. Intention as we know it creates in our minds such an illusion. It seeks something for a self which is not there, even if that be in the name of kusala. Jack: Yes, at a point in our development, we are to leave all striving behind. Sukin: You mean `willful' striving and not `effort'? There is right and wrong effort, don't you think it is important to determine if the effort is right or not. And if you know that right effort is conditioned by other rights, don't you think it dangerous not to question an `intended activity' such as meditation? Are we not risking going the wrong path? Jack: But, I think the Buddha gave instructions that also apply to earlier stages in our mental development. And, I think we, unless we are pretty far advanced, go back and forth daily in stages of our development. That is, there are times when we just have to try to follow the precepts and times we can just do something without striving. Sukin: As far as the development of panna is concerned, the difference in "stages" is just that in the beginning it is `theoretical knowledge', and gradually with a degree of practice, the understanding of theory also deepens and this increases the chance of sati and panna arising more in experience. However, all the way, from the very beginning it must involve detachment. At first it would be prompted by much rationalizing etc, but later as understanding grows, it would be as you say, "without striving". We are not advanced and don't need to be so in order to have some detachment from any idea of a `self having to do something'. Same applies to `keeping the precepts'. Jack: Another way to say it is that striving is like using a thorn to remove a thorn in our skin. Once we have removed the thorn in our skin, we throw both thorns away. Sukin: Everyone wants to be free of suffering. But a deluded worldling will only understand *his* suffering, and so all attempts at removing the suffering will cause him to fall into the trap of yet other forms of suffering. Those of us who have heard the teachings and yearn to be free, because we don't still know the real nature of dhamma, we too will fall into the lap of perhaps the lesser evil, some form of lobha or the other. Only the ariyans knows and is not deceived. But more dangerous than all other akusala is Wrong view. If we don't know that any idea of "using a thorn to remove a thorn in our skin" is influenced by wrong view, then the result can be really bad. I am not saying, that you have wrong view, but just want to caution you about it since you seem more interested in other things. As to your other post, it will have to wait, no time. Only one thing, I don't consider the DO at all. The very mention of it makes me very nervous. Whenever I come across DO, there are more questions than answers. So I am hoping this new discussion thread on DO will help me. But I will need to go really, slow. Metta, Sukin. 31505 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, I have some time now. You said: I think you are misreading the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO). DO doesn't begin with ignorance and end with decay and death. It is a cycle. Each element influences the next with decay and death influencing ignorance as the wheel turns. Mental formations that occur influence the next cycle ignorance element. Thoughts, intentions and the decisions we make are very important and can be a problem. Sukin: I think in the quote you posted, the author was talking about thought per se, but here in dependent origination, you are talking about intention. Jack: I think we can know our perversions without the use of symbols. If we are mindful, we see how X causes Y, a perversion causes suffering. We don't have to use a symbol for either X or Y. It is like riding a bike. We learn by seeing how a given action causes certain results. We don't use symbols in learning how to ride a bike. Symbols make it easier, in my opinion, but aren't necessary to understand how a perversion causes suffering. Sukin: I was saying that we can't know "about" our perversions. By this I meant that without the use of words, what the Buddha discovered wouldn't reach our ears. And once reached, without being reminded about it again and again, our attention and interest will move on to other things. Sure, knowing anything does not involve any superimposition of words. But I was talking about the knowledge of such things, without this, we would have no hint at all. Jack: Intention does play a part in the development of understanding. Intention drives kamma. Past kamma causes the first elements of a Cycle of DO up to vedana. Past kamma can influence the mental formations that occur after vedana in a cycle of DO. So, intention does influence understanding. In this case, I am defining understanding as insight into the causation of suffering. Sukin: Past kamma, gives rise to vipaka. Accumulations and tendencies influence the mental formations now. Insight will occur only because panna has been accumulated enough and other conditions are in place. Intention has no influence in this process. Jack: I am reading your post to say that experiencing an ultimate has to involve a concept. I don't think that is what the Buddha had in mind. Sukin: You are misunderstanding what I said, sorry for not having been clearer. Experiencing an ultimate reality is without words. But without knowledge of these, one's attention will dart among unrealities, thinking them to be real. So we need to hear about "realities" in order to know what it is that is actually going on in our lives. Jack: I think it is very difficult to develop understanding if we only scratch the shoe, i.e., don't go right to reality and compare it with our concepts. Sukin: Yes, but not a "self" who can do this. There is no need to compare even; panna will take care of everything. Jack, I think you are still holding to an idea of "application" which may be wrong…..?! Jack: Even if it is possible, it is not the method suggested by the Buddha who continually suggested that his teachings were to be tested by our own actual experience. Sukin: Again, no self to test or apply, but like I said in another post, when the conditions arise, the practice will take place and this would be verification of what one has heard. Jack: You seem to be implying the opposite, i.e., actual experience isn't required. Sukin: I hope you now see that this is not what I am suggesting. Metta, Sukin. ps: Sorry to fill up your time with so much of my own thoughts. 31506 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack Just like to add on this part that the experiental part that we are living is conceptual in paramattha dhamma standard. By the time we experience in conventional way, there are already millions of cittas arise and cease. Regard to DO, IMHO feelings are past kamma if and only if you are talking about vipakas cittas. For javana process cittas, the can be wholesome or unwholesome, so it can be pleasant, unpleasant or indifference. Ken O 31507 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Victor Welcome back Regarding to your three questions, for the pali word, that is beyond me. What does it mean by 'shedding' and What is it that was being shed? Lets look at the three sutta quote You wrote: I would say that haugtiness, contempt, and pride all should lump into one conceit for easy grasping of the Teacher Instructions. extracting both 3.1 and 3.3 sutta quotes. are presentative of material aggregates and one thought one own these aggregates, one become very conceited with one have. immaterial aggregates where one can see this person has lots of conceit. conceit is extracted and the word ubound - are representative of Arahatship. The last story about the not resort to violence. I remember there is a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe Christine could help ;-). This story is consistent with the above two, with the shedding of I am (conceit), where is anger to be found. So my conclusion is same as yours, the shedding of conceit as the Teacher Instruction. As only when one is an Arahant, conceit is being totally shed ;-). Ken O 31508 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 1 Hi Christine, I know you understand paramattha dhamams, just happen to read this and I like to share it with you, using your 'One by One as they Arise' method. Visud XVII, 28 < Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Swee Boon I have an interesting detail for you from Visud - a short one. And it shows the importance on the mindfullnss of the body (understanding materiality) Visud XVIII, 23 <> Beforehand, there is description on how to start to discern the materiality. This is like an extension of the meditation of elements, it started with the elements, this time in paramattha level (no longer in concept as describe in the suttas), then defining materiality based on 18 elements, based on twelve bases and based on five aggregates. Ken O 31510 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Ken O, I was really enjoying your research until you came to your conclusion about insight (vipassana). I am sorry to say this, because I respect you a great deal, and I do not mean any offense by this at all, but it seems your conclusion is born of fixed views. It seemed like you were really onto something that would challenge us all here, like, why does the Buddha reject Alara Kalama and Ramaputta and the 7th and 8th jhanas, go off get enlightened (nibbana), then conclude the sutta with extolling the 8 jhanas? He, by the way, does not mention insight (vipassana) at all in that sutta. So, why did you come to the conclusion that insight was the answer, except that you are still clinging to the belief and fixed view that the 'dry' insight (vipassana) sangha have been selling in the name of the Buddha, dhamma and sangha? On another list someone responded to my discourse "Lack of evidence in support of a 'Dry' Insight" by asking "just what did the Buddha say about insight (vipassana)?" Not having a whole lot to say on the subject of canonical references to insight, I turned to the index for the Digha Nikaya, and found there is only one suttic reference in that entire Nikaya for insight. Mahapadana Sutta, DN 14, and the sutta is an allegory about a boy whose name is Vipassi, an obvious metaphor for vipassana. I am all for mindfulness of the four Corner Stones of Awareness including "mindfulness of the five aggregates." This is an excellent practice regimen that is described in the Sati Suttas, however they are not the definition of insight (vipassana). They are the definition of Satipatthana. It seems one of the errors that the 'dry' Insight people have been making is subverting the Satipatthana Sutta by appropriating everything in the three sati suttas, with the exception of jhana, then renaming it as vipassana, and claiming the Buddha taught it. Well, yes the Buddha did teach it, however he called the practice of mindfulness (sati), Satipatthana not vipassana, and he did not reject jhana. What I have been saying all along is "there is no insight without jhana. There is no jhana without insight. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption" Dhammapada Verse 372. They are simply two of the properties of right meditation or absorption (samma-samadhi). Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/18/04 11:17:35 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:12:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Ken O Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and (Jeff Brooks) You have to be patient with me, because I am a very long winded person like Sukin :-). I am not here to say I am right or you are wrong. I just like to share with you what I have gather on the little details about jhanas. MN 26, The Noble Search. "Thus Alara Kalama, my teacher placed me his pupil on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occured to me: 'This dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reapperance in the base of nothingness" [Base of nothingness is an immaterial state and only can be access through arupa jhanas] Then again Buddha go to Rama and learn neither-preception-nor-non-preception [also another immaterial state and can only be access through arupa jhanas]. Sutta MN 8 Effacement. 4. "It is possible here, Cunda that quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He might think thus: "I am abidhing in effacement." But it is not these attainments that are called "effacement" in the Noble One Disciple: These are called pleasant abidings here and not' in the Noble One's Discipline." Then later in the sutta Buddha described the effacement like not to be cruel, no killing etc... (44 in all) Then again in The Noble Search MN 26 at para 33, As to those recluses and brahims who are not tie to the five cords of sensual pleasure, who are not infatuated with them or utterly commited to them, who use them seeing the danger in them and understanding the escape from them, it may undersand of them.......... then to para 35, Again with the stilling of applied thought etc... is all about jhanas. By the above quotes, I established that without insight, jhana is basically useless. It is only together with insight with jhanas that our mind become invisible to Maras. Then again it is not about development of jhanas first, it is always point to development of sila, restraining of the six senses that comes first, before jhanas. So mindfulness and insight are vehicles before we talk about jhanas. Even if one look at Mindfullness suttas, there are always after mental objects or consciousness, it is the establishment of mindfullness of the five aggregates before one enter jhanas. We can also conclude, without insight there will no understanding of dhamma, so attaining 4th jhanas will not make one more insightful or clearer or sharper or more comprehenable. Ken O >> 31511 From: Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hello Swee Boon, just out of curiosity, if they are considered "higher knowledges" then why do you have them labeled as "mundane?" And, do you have a canonical reference for their designation as "mundane?" Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/18/04 11:17:35 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:47:43 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Htoo, > This is not a comment. But a question. What are the 6 higher > knowledges? They are: (1) wields manifold supranormal powers (mundane), (2) divine ear-element (mundane), (3) knows the awareness of other beings (mundane), (4) recollects his manifold past lives (mundane), (5) sees beings passing away & re-appearing (mundane), and (6) ending of the mental effluents (supramundane), as listed at the end of that very sutta. Regards, Swee Boon >> 31512 From: Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi, Sukin (and Swee Boon and Jack) - In a message dated 3/19/04 3:59:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Swee Boon, Jack and Howard, > > > Swee Boon, I don't think your paraphrase fits with my thoughts. I > would put them another way. > > Swee Boon wrote: > > There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. > There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to > control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there > isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. > You can't try. > > Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? > > And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? > > Non-action. > > Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue > them. > > Sukin: > All dhammas arise and fall by conditions, including volition. Being > able to control these conditions is an illusion. There are only > dhammas arising and falling, no `self' anywhere. `You can't select', > not only because there is no self, but because citta taking on any > object is conditioned and not up to any non-existent `chooser'. The > problem in `attempting' is not just `self-view', but that *this* is > self-defeating. Ignorance associated with `aiming for results' > mistakes akusala for kusala, wrong view for right view and so > instead of developing more panna, one is going the wrong path. > ============================ "It seems I've heard this song before ... " Anybody recall that old tune? ;-)) And here comes the same old, familiar refrain: Sukin, forgoing techno-speak for the moment, let me ask you whether you can hold your breath for a few seconds (I *know* that you can! ;-) Now, that is exercising control. You will, of course reply that there is no self who exercised anything. And I will agree, and reply "So what?"! This is still an instance of what people normally and conventionally mean by exercising control. Now, you will likely follow up by saying that the volition that leads to the breath-holding is not uncaused, but arises automatically from conditions. And I will reply "Of course that is so! What sort of volition would baseless volition be? I would be pure randomness! What sort of appeal would anyone find in a willing that is willing for no reason whatsoever? Why, no appeal! Of *course* volition, like all conditioned phenomena, arises due to causes and conditions.So what?" With metta, Howard P.S. Maybe we should just record this conversation, so that we can play it back in the future, saving unnecessary finger exercise on the keyboard! What do you think? ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31513 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:20am Subject: Kusala and Akusala patterns in daily Life. O Dhamma Fellows!!! Nobody can estimate the value of Right Understanding till concrete chance appears! I was assigned to check out the service uplifters of one FAB's Military Unity (a gerontological clinic): they were a bit old and obsolete and all personnel over there stood looking at me, waiting for a miraculous declaration of all that problem and its brillant solution... the room gear was dirty, messed up with obsolete and rusty equipment and, adding up with my unexpertise of uplifters projects, this raised up in my citta a deep Akusala feeling: not about "no-morality", or wrong deeds, but a direct LACK OF EXPERTISE as the true meaning of "Akusala". Terrible! I said some loose, cold sweating words when my sub-officer, that is very expert on this class of projects, came to my aid: with a quick look at all situation he stated to all presents a real picture of all that problems and their possible solutions. I nooded honourably, with a deep KUSALA feeling! Moral: Kusala and Akusala Dhammas, rather than speaking out about morality, wrong deeds and doers, etc, is a declaration of EXPERTISE or No-EXPERTISE of all Citta and Cetasika affairs!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31514 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, If striving to attain the goal is akusala, there would be no Buddhas. Regards, Swee Boon 31515 From: hasituppada Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Friends, I do not personally believe in a "dry" or a "wet" insight. Lord Buddha made his discourse to make his disciples understand the importance of "meditation" the only way out of cycle of death and birth. He learnt the concentration of mind through samadhi and jhana absorptions, from the teachers like Alara Kaalama. He found there was some thing incomplete in deeper concentration and jhana absorptions to understand the reality of dukkha the search into which was his primary interest in taking to the life of an ascetic. He therefore, realising that none of the sages of the day had found the key to discover reality of suffering, went on his own to determined to find the truth of Dukkha. He sat by the Bodhi tree and went throught the preliminary stages of meditation by absorption of rupa dna arupa jhana, then he came out of it and with that mind cleared through concentration tried to understand the reality of Dukkha and the suffering in samsara. That resulted in his enlightenment. He found that "meditation" was the only way to develop panna and understand the impermanance, unsatisfactoryness and no self. Therefore, he set the wheel of dhamma turning and taught his followers to find freedom from samasara through "meditation". Samatha and vipassana are two integral parts of "Bhavana". There is no "one" without "the other". Both together composed meditation. Therefore as samatha and vipassana being the "bhavana" that Buddha prescribed, it was not necessary for him to repeat in every discourse that a meditator should begin by jhana absorptions and then go on to vipassana. When he said sit at the foot of a tree or an empty house etc.meditate on the in out breath he very well expected the meditator to commence by Samatha and go on to Vipassana. To do Vipassana without Jhana absorption is therefore a "mutilation" of the meditation taught by the Buddha. with metta, Hasituppada. ______________________________________________________________ So, why did you come to the conclusion that insight was the answer, except that you are still clinging to the belief and fixed view that the 'dry' insight (vipassana) sangha have been selling in the name of the Buddha, dhamma and sangha? On another list someone responded to my discourse "Lack of evidence in support of a 'Dry' Insight" by asking "just what did the Buddha say about insight (vipassana)?" Not having a whole lot to say on the subject of canonical references to insight, I turned to the index for the Digha Nikaya, and found there is only one suttic reference in that entire Nikaya for insight. Mahapadana Sutta, DN 14, and the sutta is an allegory about a boy whose name is Vipassi, an obvious metaphor for vipassana. Jeff Brooks 31516 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, It's because the 5 mundane higher knowledges do not lead to the ending of stress. Only with the attainment of the only supramundane higher knowledge can a person discern thus: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' Regards, Swee Boon 31517 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:17am Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Ken O, Thank you. I've read through the passage § 3.3 and enjoyed the the shedding > of > haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride story. It seems to me the last paragraph Such, monks, is the forbearance & gentleness of kings who wield the scepter, who wield the sword. So now let your light shine forth, so that you -- who have gone forth in such a well-taught Dhamma & Discipline -- will be their equal in forbearance & gentleness. points out the lesson of the story. To me, forbearance & gentleness is the shedding of haughtiness & contempt, the conceit "I am", and all forms of pride. It seems to me that out of haughtiness & contempt, conceit, pride, King Brahmadatta invaded Kosala and eventually killed King Dighiti and his chief consort. I think it is a story rich of meaning, and it has a deep human dimension. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Victor > > Welcome back > > Regarding to your three questions, for the pali word, that is beyond > me. What does it mean by 'shedding' and What is it that was being > shed? Lets look at the three sutta quote > > You wrote: off something. In passage § 3.1., it seems to me that > is the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the Teacher's instruction. And that kind > of shedding is again reflected in passage § 3.2.> I would say that > haugtiness, contempt, and pride all should lump into one conceit for > easy grasping of the Teacher Instructions. > > > extracting both 3.1 and 3.3 sutta quotes. > Intoxicated with my complexion figure, beauty, & fame; haughty with > youth> are presentative of material aggregates and one thought one > own these aggregates, one become very conceited with one have. > > arrogant, haughty, my banner held high. disrespectful, arrogant, > proud -- bowed down to no one, not even mother, father, or those > > immaterial aggregates where one can see this person has lots of > conceit. > > > effluents, cooled am I, unbound> conceit is extracted and the word > ubound - are representative of Arahatship. > > The last story about the not resort to violence. I remember there is > a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe Christine could help ;- ). > This story is consistent with the above two, with the shedding of I > am (conceit), where is anger to be found. So my conclusion is same > as yours, the shedding of conceit as the Teacher Instruction. As > only when one is an Arahant, conceit is being totally shed ;-). > > > Ken O 31518 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:36am Subject: char. of rupas, 2 char. of rupas, 2. The text (of the Atth) states: ³... integration of matter has the characteristic of accumulation, the function of making material things arise at the beginning, leading them, or the fullness of matter as manifestation, integrated matter as proximate cause. Continuity has the characteristic of continuous occurrence, the function of linking or binding without a break, unbroken series as manifestation, matter bound up without a break as proximate cause.² The words ³linking without a break² remind us that the seemingly permanence of the body is merely due to the continuous production of new rúpas replacing the ones that have fallen away. Thus, the explanation by the ³Atthasåliní² of these four characteristics in a general way or in conventional sense is different from the explanation of the four characteristics of each group of rúpas which arise and fall away. The sabhåva rúpas (rúpas with their own distinct nature) of each group must have all four characteristics of the origination of rúpa, upacaya rúpa, the continuity of rúpa, santati rúpa, the decay of rúpa, jårata rúpa, and the impermanence of rúpa, aniccatå rúpa. The ³Atthasåliní² also deals with decay (jaratå) in a general, conventional sense (same section, 328) : ... the decay of matter has the characteristic of maturity of matter; leading (to disruption) as function; the lacking of a fresh state (newness), though not devoid of its intrinsic nature (individual essence), as manifestation, like rotten paddy; the maturing matter as proximate cause. The ³Atthasåliní² explains terms used by the ³Dhammasangaùi² in reference to decay, such as decrepitude, hoariness, wrinkles, the shrinkage in length of days, the overripeness of the faculties: ... By the word ³decrepitude² is shown the function which is the reason for the broken state of teeth, nails, etc., in process of time. By hoariness is shown the function which is the reason for the greyness of hair on the head and body. By ³wrinkles² is shown the function which is the reason for the wrinkled state in the skin making the flesh fade. Hence these three terms show the function of decay in process of time.... As to the terms ³shrinkage in life and maturity of faculties², these show the resultant nature of this decay. We read: ... Because the life of a being who has reached decay shortens, therefore decay is said to be the shrinkage in life by a figure of speech. Moreover, the faculties, such as sight, etc., capable of easily seizing their own object, however subtle, and which are clear in youth, are mature in one who has attained to decay; they are disturbed, not distinct, and not capable of seizing their own object however gross.... When we notice decay of our teeth, wrinkles of the skin and greying of our hairs, decay is obvious. However, we should remember that each rúpa that arises is susceptible to decay, that it will fall away completely. Nina. 31519 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 19-03-2004 00:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > If I don't see an image, what do I see? I certainly don't see only red > then only blue. N: No, defining different colours such as red or blue is also thinking, not seeing. Seeing experiences all that is visible through eyesense, without thinking. It took me many years of discussion before I began to understand. Seeing is not focussing on something. The Abhidhamma can help us, but it has to be applied, and at this very moment. We learn that seeing is vipaakacitta, it just sees, it does not like or dislike. Seeing is accompanied by the minimum amount of cetasikas: seven only. It does not know yet whether the object is desirable or undesirable, it just sees without thinking. It is not accompanied by vitakka (translated as thinking), the cetasika that "hits" the object. Seeing is an experience, it is not dead matter. If there were no seeing the world of sight would not appear, nothing would appear through eyesense and the world would be pitch dark. Seeing experiences an object, but you do not have to call it object. So, we have to find out for ourselves whether there can be moments of seeing, moments that we do not think of anything, moments without terms or words. L: Furthermore, I think it is not useful to isolate > experience, focusing only on one little touch separate from all else. If > we don't see relationships we won't be aware of conditional relations. > Without an awareness of conditional relations there is no cessation. > Conditional relations is a supramundane mind-door object but they could > also be a mundane mind-door object. N: The object of lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas, is only nibbana. Cessation is the term used for the realization of nibbana. Understanding conditional relations: which ones at which moment? There are twentyfour classes. L: As far as I know concept is not an > object of mundane insight; N: Right, nibbana is not a concept. L:so conditional relations (and other relations such as complex external objects) are not concepts when they are objects > of mundane insight. N: It is better, I think, if we go into concrete examples here. Nina. 31520 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:34am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.1.) § 4.1. "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said." [AN VIII.30] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31521 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.1.) Hi all, I find that passage § 4.1 explains what it means by being modest. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 4.1. > "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? > There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be > known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be > known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to > be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he > does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His > mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known > that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he > does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being > endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He > is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not > want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This > Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it > said." > > [AN VIII.30] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31522 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:28pm Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hello Victor, KenO and all, Still on conceit ... Most people think of conceit as pride and vanity whether allegedly justified or not. But I can remember being told the first time I was in Bangkok in a discussion that stating "modestly" that others had greater knowledge of the Dhamma than I was a form of conceit And I think on another trip, I was told that having 'hurt feelings' because of someone else's rudeness was also a form of conceit, because it could only happen if there was the idea of a 'self' who hadn't been given due respect etc. KenO says: "The last story about the not resort to violence. I remember there is a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe Christine could help ;-)." CF: I'll try, but can you give me a few more details Ken? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 31523 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:56pm Subject: Azita Dear Azita-still-treading-water-I-hope, Have you lot in Cairns really had 1000 millimetres - 250 inches (using the old standard :-)) in the last week? Must be true - the ABC News told me so. :-) Great to have full water tanks, hey! Hope the Barron River is still within its banks near you. Hope you have an aqualung within reach. Hope the road south opens to trucks soon, and the power is restored. Hope, at least, that the Big Wet has washed the crocs and cane toads out to sea. See you at Brissie airport when you stopover on the way to U-A-R next Friday. Cairns airport is still operational, I hope. :-) We'll have to have a talking schedule - you first, then me or vice versa, to get it all said in only a few of hours ... or six cups of coffee (using the old standard. :-)) cheers, Chris 31524 From: Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, I can't make out what you are saying. I am trying to make the case that relationships are ultimately real. Do you reject that or not? "Dependent arising" is about relationships is it not? The "cause" of suffering and the "way" to the end of suffering are both relationships. First you reject "image" and now you reject "color". I cannot write without words. How can we communicate? Apparently for you visible data "without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. There is natural relationship there already, a group. Larry 31525 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Abbydhamma, I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque posts here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of dhammas. It's suitable that I post here, actually, because the fear has arisen since I encountered this group, and more especually the abhidhamma. It makes sense - I've seen my wrong way of understanding reality stripped down and am standing naked on a very cold day. A friend here referred to having one's wrong understanding exposed as "refreshing" and I can see that, in a sense, because there is knowledge that with the passing of wrong understanding right understanding can arise. My problem is that - as I posted before- the circumstances of my life demand that I try to make money, and my new small degree of right understanding shows me that intending to make money through concepts/writing is a recipe for great deepening of defilements rather than progress on uprooting them. I think the problem comes down to the fact that my best friend/life partner/wife Naomi has no interest in Buddhism and considers my interest a form of dilly-dallying and avoiding the hard work that needs to be done. I want to get deeper and deeper into understanding dhammas. She wants me to get deeper and deeper into the market place. And I know she's right that if I don't, we will be penniless in our old age. We joke about surving on a can of tuna a day. If I were by myself, that would be all right. I would have a greater wealth in dhmma than a comfortable retirement fund. But she will be by my side when we are old, and if she hasn't found the Buddha's teaching by then, there will be hell to pay. So one thing to do is to help her understand the Buddha's teaching. I wrote before that she said she was not surprised by the notion of rupa and nama, but it is far from true that she has been liberated from material concerns to even a small degree. All she thinks about these days are pensions (which we don't have- living abroad, I don't even know if I can get a pension from Canada, and I can't get one from Japan -I'm in a catch 22 there) and savings funds (which we can't afford to contribute to) Those of you whose life partners (I think of Sarah and Jon and Nina and Ludjewik(sp?) ) share an interest in the Buddha's teaching should not take that for granted. It is probably very rare. I am interested in talking to Rob K someday about how he manages to get Japanese friends and students interested in dhamma, because in my experience there is aversion to Buddhism on the part of many Japanese because Buddhism has come to be associated strictly with funerals and payment priests in exchange for chanting. So sharing the Buddha's teaching with her is not easy. Sharing from the heart is best of course, telling her what I've learned, how important it is, but you see that is another catch 22 because since she thinks my interest in Buddhism is dilly-dallying, talking about it is also dilly-dallying. We don't have kids, BTW. That may make us very close and dependent on each other, to a degree that many couples with kids don't have because of orientating more towards the kids' well being. But that's a different topic. Anyways, I needed to post this. If I am less involved here in the months to come, it will not be because of a typical fickleness of passing interest, but because I somehow have to get my nose down to the grindstone. (If any of you are fithy rich and would like to adopt a youngish, middle-aged couple, we are available. Fairly house trained, and we can both cook quite well.) I am feeling confused and fearful about how to balance a sincere interest in the Buddha's teaching with a need to think about the market place. Signed, Penniless in Samsara 31526 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:37pm Subject: Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Christine and all, Reading what you wrote, I did a search on the words 'superior', 'equal', and 'inferior', and find the following relevant: Sutta Nipata IV.9 Magandiya Sutta To Magandiya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- 09.html Samyutta Nikaya I.20 Samiddhi Sutta About Samiddhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-020.html Stating, however "modestly", that others had greater knowledge of the Dhamma than oneself would still be an instance of construing 'equal,' 'superior,' or 'inferior.' I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said Having shed classifications, gone beyond conceit, he has here cut through craving for name & form: I wonder if shedding of classification is also meant by the principle/criteria of shedding. Perhaps it can be further examined textually by looking into the Pali original for the word 'shedding.' Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, KenO and all, > > Still on conceit ... > Most people think of conceit as pride and vanity whether allegedly > justified or not. But I can remember being told the first time I > was in Bangkok in a discussion that stating "modestly" that others > had greater knowledge of the Dhamma than I was a form of conceit And > I think on another trip, I was told that having 'hurt feelings' > because of someone else's rudeness was also a form of conceit, > because it could only happen if there was the idea of a 'self' who > hadn't been given due respect etc. > > KenO says: "The last story about the not resort to violence. I > remember there is a very beautiful four stanza on this, maybe > Christine could help ;-)." > CF: I'll try, but can you give me a few more details Ken? > > > metta and peace, > Christine 31527 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_(§_3.3) Hi Victor More on conceit In The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) 845. Therein what is pride? That which is pride, being proud, state of being proud, conceit, being conceited, state of being conceited, loftiness, haughtiness (flaunting a) flag, assumption, desire of conscioness for a banner. This is called pride 962. There is what is ninefold conceit? In one who is better the conceit thus, "I am better"; in one who is better the conceit thus, "I am equal"; in one who is better thus, "I am inferior"; in one who is equal the conceit thus "I am better"; in one who is equal the conceit thus "I am equal"; in one who is equal the conceit thus "I am inferior"; in one who is inferior the conceit thus "I am better"; in one who is inferior the conceit thus "I am equal"; in one who is inferior the conceit thus "I am inferior"; 869. Therein of one who is better what is conceit thus, "I am better" Herein a certain one who is better by birth or by clan or by good family or by beautiful body or by property or by study or by sphere of work or by sphere of craft, or by branch of science or by learning or by intelligence or by one reason or another places himself as better than others; he, depending thereon causes conceit to arise' that which is conceit, being conceited, state of being conceited, loftiness, haughtiness (fluanting) flag, assumption, desire of consciouness for a banner. This is called the conceit thus, "I am better" 870. Therein of one who is better what is the conceit thus, "I am equal"? follow the above paragraph replace word "better" with "equal". 871. Therein of on who is better what is conceit thus, "I am inferior"? Herein a certain who is better by birth or by clan or by good family or by beautiful body or by property or by study or by sphere of work or by sphere of craft, or by branch of science or by learning or by intelligence or by one reason or another places himself as inferior than others; he depending thereon, causes self-disrespect to arise; that which is similar; self-disrespect, being self-disrespectful, state of being disrespectful, scorning (self) being very scornful, state of being very scornful, self-disdain, self-despising, self-contempt. This of one who is better is called the conceit thus, "I am inferior" The text continue with "therein of one who is equal" and "therein of one who is inferior", replacing the words "who is better by birth" with " who is equal by birth...." and "who is inferior by birth", you got the ninefold explanation of conceit How do one get rid of conceit? Visud Chapter III para 122 (extract of the paragraph) "Perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the purpose of eliminating the conceit "I am"' (A.iv.358) How do one study conceit? Dispeller of Delusion <<183. But when a visible datum(rupa) has come into focus in the eye door, a clansman who is established in laying hold thus: 'Lust arises in me regarding an agreeable object and resistance regarding a disagreeable object and delusion regarding an unrecognised obejct; but pride arises in me when bound (vinihandha), [wrong] view when held, agitation (uddhacca) when distracted, uncertainity when not attained to a definite conclusion [asannitthagata], inherent tendecies when habit-ridden, knows the arising of defilements in himself. He thinks: "These defilements by increasing will lead to my harm and undoing. Let me restrain them'....>> Then again in in CMA by B Bodhi chapter I, para 4 conceit arise in 4 types of consciuoness with lobha [conceit is known as dissociation with wrong view] a. One consciouness, accompanied by joy, dissociated with wrong view, unprompted b. One consciouness, accompanied by joy, dissociated with wrong view, prompted c. One consciouness, accompanied by indifference, dissociated with wrong view, unprompted d. One consciouness, accompanied by indifference, dissociated with wrong view, prompted Ken O 31528 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Santirana-citta, Chris fwd. Dear Christine, please frwd to Lynn. Dear Lynn, That is a pleasure to see you again. How is your group doing? Lynn: > Some questions have been asked from our group about > the santirana -citta. These questions which come out of our study > of Abhidhamma in Daily life, chapter 17, Doors and Physical dases of > Citta. > On page 111 of Ninas text, in the last sentence of paragraph 3, Nina > states; Santirana - Citta has different functions when performed > through different doorways.... > We are still confused as to how investigating consciousness can > perform functions other than investigating! N: See Ch 11. One type of citta can perform different functions at different moments. The santiranacitta performs the function of investigating through five doorways, the function of tadarammana through six doorways. Santiranacitta that is akusala vipaka accompanied by indifferent feeling performs the function of rebirth in woeful planes. It is actually the same type as the citta performing the function of santirana, investigating, in the sense-doors (same jati, the same accompanying cetasikas). When it performs the function of rebirth it is doorfreed or processfreed, not arising in a process, not experiencing an object impinging on a door. This has the same object as the javanacittas in the previous life, conditioned by kamma. Then the santiranacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling that is ahetuka kusala vipaka performs the function of rebirth in the human plane in the case of those handicapped from birth, or in lower heavenly planes. That is a weak kusala vipaka. The bhavangacitta and cuticitta are the same types as the patisandhicitta. L: From the next two paragraphs on the same page. According to the > text, if Santirana-citta is accompanied by somanassa, it can perform > the function of santirana through 5 doors and tadarammana through 6 > doors. However, if Santirana is accompanied by upekkha, it can > perform santirana, tadarammana, patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti!THis > is three more functions with no explanation of why. N: See above. Ch 11 and 12. I think you would have to go through several Ch to find the answers. L:Could it be that > if Santirana is accompanied by somanassa you have already reached > enlightenment where cuti, bhavanga and patisandhi no longer apply? N: Note: there are four stages of enlightenment, and only in the case of the fourth stage, of the arahat there is no more rebirth. Santirana accompanied by somanassa cannot perform the functions of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. When you are born with somanassa it means the vipakacitta is sahetuka, accompanied by alobha and adosa, and it may be accompanied by panna. The sahetuka vipakacitta that performs those functions can also be accompanied by upekkha. Your questions were also the same as my husband's. He found it so difficult that one type of citta can perform more than one function. Same as the manodvaravajjanacitta that in a sense-door process can perform the function of votthapana. Nina. P.S. The last edition of ADL is 1997, Triple Gem Press. This is better. 31529 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Sukin, very good. It is helpful if you ask questions. I also need to go slowly. Nina. op 19-03-2004 09:59 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > Only one > thing, I don't consider the DO at all. The very mention of it makes > me very nervous. Whenever I come across DO, there are more questions > than answers. So I am hoping this new discussion thread on DO will > help me. But I will need to go really, slow. 31530 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hi Jeffrey Brooks I am not writing dry vs wet insight. I am not interested in which is better than which or which is taught or which is the only way because it does not help one to understand dhamma any better. I am saying a very simple fact, without insight there is no jhanas. If you look all the suttas you want, that will be the basis, no insight no jhanas (i.e. withdrawal of sensual pleasure). When I talk about insight, I am not saying those insight per se as what we meant when we are enlighted. There is no need to challenge anything, Because what I say can be found in the suttas. I dont reinvent the wheel. Regarding your question where Buddha never mentioned insight in the jhanas when he learn from Kalama and Ramaputta because insight and jhanas are two exlusive events. Jhanas help one to focus on an object and suppress hindrances but it does not bring enlightement. That is why Buddha reject their methods because it does not contain insight of the dhammas as anatta and anicca which lead to enlightenment. If you are on the wet method, it should be insight - jhanas - insight (enlightenment level). It cannot be without insight (or right understanding) as an inital prerequisite. Even you wish to pursue the jhanas or concentration method, a good example will be the breathing sutta when <> - so one see that he has to focus on breath as well as inconstancy of breath, that is called concentration + insight. Then one is established in satipatthana. If you look at the all the sati suttas, concentration is complementary with the understanding of anicca and anatta before one can enters jhanas then to enlightement. It is not concentration per se that cause us to be insightful, it is concentration with the study of the nature of dhamma that leads us to enlightement. For your kind comments, please Ken O 31531 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:20pm Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello again, all. If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, I think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen did. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque posts > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of > dhammas. > 31532 From: Eznir Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Sukin, The story about using the raft to cross the stream and leaving it behind as one proceeds on his way.... has no meaning if not understood in this context of 'control' or 'aiming for results'. Of course there is no 'self' who does the controlling or who aims for results, but there comes a stage, as things proceed, when this need to 'control' or 'aim for results'(that *this*) becomes meaningless! At which time one leaves them behind, like the raft, and proceeds on his way. If one has developed ones eyesight to even see the microbes swimming in ones blood stream, why take a blood sample and use a microscope to see them! One can now do a way with those paraphernalia. Just like that! But you are right, Sukin. There is no doer or self and only Dhammas that rise and fall. Howard is also right! But how do we reconcile this situation? I see it this way. All these words and phrases that we are using in this discussion is only a conventionality that represent our point of view of what Lord Buddha said. In the mind they are simply qualities with no words nor phrases. And these qualities are also only of two kinds that correspond to pleasant feelings and unpleasant feelings. For it is said that everything that arises in the mind flows along with feeling. Feeling then, is the connection between this body & mind. If there is no feeling dukkha can never be comprehended, ie., Dukkha has no meaning! To illustrate my point about the qualities: Wisdom and Ignorance are two ends of the same stick! As we traverse from the ignorance end towards the wisdom end, the quality of `ignorance' in the mind diminishes and correspondingly the quality of `wisdom', again in the mind, increases. The same can be said about kusala and akusala and other things of duality in nature. (Even the masculinity and femininity depends on the nature of a person, and not on the sex organs; though we conventionaly call them male and female.) This increase and corresponding decrease in qualities becomes irreversible at the four junctions of noble attainments, sotapatti, sakadagami, anagami and arahant. Take a puthujjana and an arahant. They too are two ends of the same stick. And a sekha stands in-between! Looking at a sekha from the puthujjana's end of the `stick' he is not an arahant as he still has things to do. Looking from the arahant's end he is not a puthujjana because he has overcome three of the ten fetters that define a puthujjana. Now where do *we* stand on this `stick'? It is from this standpoint of view that *we* should traverse(application of the 4 noble truths) towards the arahant's end of the stick. It is all well that *we* should have a `perfect' view of what the Dhamma is, but if that is not where *we* stand, then *we* should know how to get there. Intention is action. It is this right intention accompanied with right view that gets one to the goal. And as *we* traverse in that direction *we* should shed all the erroneous thoughts that *we* harboured so far(cessation of `little' dukkhas) that contributed to the wrong understanding of the Dhamma. And how does one know the folly of our thoughts? By our own experience of the Dhamma, and definitely not by referencing to external sources! Since kamma is still active in a non-arahant, things cannot be as autonomous as one would like to believe, like in inanimate things. The essential difference between inanimate and animate things is life- action, kamma, the ability to choose(intention). No matter how perfect our theoretical understanding of the intricacies of the Dhamma is, in every moment of our existence we face this question, "what to do with this moment?" And the best course of action would be to do that course of action that would cease the need to do that course of action, eventually!(that is when we leave the raft and go our ways). eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sukin (and Swee Boon and Jack) - > > In a message dated 3/19/04 3:59:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sukinder@k... writes: > > > Hi Swee Boon, Jack and Howard, > > > > > > Swee Boon, I don't think your paraphrase fits with my thoughts. I > > would put them another way. > > > > Swee Boon wrote: > > > > There is no control. There is no self that controls anything. > > There can't be control. Control doesn't exist. If you attempt to > > control, you are having a self-identity view. Why? Since there > > isn't a self, there can't be control. Therefore, you can't select. > > You can't try. > > > > Is there anything more defeating than this sort of view? > > > > And what is the result when such a sort of view becomes entrenched? > > > > Non-action. > > > > Instead of pursuing the goal, they thought the goal would pursue > > them. > > > > Sukin: > > All dhammas arise and fall by conditions, including volition. Being > > able to control these conditions is an illusion. There are only > > dhammas arising and falling, no `self' anywhere. `You can't select', > > not only because there is no self, but because citta taking on any > > object is conditioned and not up to any non-existent `chooser'. The > > problem in `attempting' is not just `self-view', but that *this* is > > self-defeating. Ignorance associated with `aiming for results' > > mistakes akusala for kusala, wrong view for right view and so > > instead of developing more panna, one is going the wrong path. > > > > ============================ > "It seems I've heard this song before ... " Anybody recall that old > tune? ;-)) And here comes the same old, familiar refrain: > Sukin, forgoing techno-speak for the moment, let me ask you whether > you can hold your breath for a few seconds (I *know* that you can! ;-) Now, that > is exercising control. You will, of course reply that there is no self who > exercised anything. And I will agree, and reply "So what?"! This is still an > instance of what people normally and conventionally mean by exercising control. > Now, you will likely follow up by saying that the volition that leads to the > breath-holding is not uncaused, but arises automatically from conditions. And I > will reply "Of course that is so! What sort of volition would baseless > volition be? I would be pure randomness! What sort of appeal would anyone find in a > willing that is willing for no reason whatsoever? Why, no appeal! Of *course* > volition, like all conditioned phenomena, arises due to causes and > conditions.So what?" > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. Maybe we should just record this conversation, so that we can play it > back in the future, saving unnecessary finger exercise on the keyboard! What do > you think? > ;-)) > 31533 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Santirana-citta, Chris fwd. Dear Nina, Thank you! I have already forwarded it to Lynn and encouraged both her and any members of that group not to feel hesitant about posting directly to dsg - for the benefit of all of us. (Though I am also happy to continue to forward any questions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, please frwd to Lynn. 31534 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:33pm Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello Phil, and all, I'm awfully sorry, but I've been thinking about your post all day and I'm afraid that you just can't withdraw your questions!:-) I almost replied this morning but had to rush out to my tyrant of a travel agent to pay for my flights to Bkk in April - and then visit rellies on that side of town. I think it was a great post, and just the sort of questions we all have on daily life. What's the point of the dhamma if it doesn't impact on how we live, and on how we think about our lives and relationships in the 'real' world? You say you're neurotic - I think the scriptures say somewhere that All Puthujjana's are Mad - so does this mean you're really normal and on-track? :-) I'll get back to you as soon as I rearrange my thoughts on it. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello again, all. > > If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it > could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words > helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a > smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, I > think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen > did. > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, > > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque > posts > > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of > > dhammas. > > 31535 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello Philip, After making great promises, my computer had a hissy-fit and deleted a number of things, including the first draft of my post to you. So, I start again - but you know how one can't quite recapture the silken turn of phrase and the precise elucidation of a point or .... :-) :-) There are presently 407 members on this list - most of them are ordinary lay people struggling with just the issues you raise. Some have loving partners with an equal interest in the Teachings, some are unhappy in relationships, some have children they love but who don't necessarily bring happiness, some don't have children and had wanted to have them, some are healthy, some are quite ill, some are young, some are elderly, some are wealthy, some comfortably off, and some worried sick about how to pay bills. And some poor unfortunates have to live alone with a self-centred Great Dane, whose only interest in the Dhamma is listening to the BrahmaVihara chant on Vipassana.com (after dinner please). Generally, life in Samsara is dukkha. Remember the traditional definition of Suffering - "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." -- SN LVI.11 A contemporary definition is: Disturbance, irritation, dejection, worry, despair, fear, dread, anguish, anxiety; vulnerability, injury, inability, inferiority; sickness, aging, decay of body and faculties, senility; pain/pleasure; excitement/boredom; deprivation/excess; desire/frustration, suppression; longing/aimlessness; hope/hopelessness; effort, activity, striving/repression; loss, want, insufficiency/satiety; love/lovelessness, friendlessness; dislike, aversion/attraction; parenthood/childlessness; submission/rebellion; decision/indecisiveness, vacillation, uncertainty. -- Francis Story in Suffering, in Vol. II of The Three Basic Facts of Existence (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983) The circumstances of most lay person's lives demands that they make a living. If a person isn't in a positon to, or doesn't feel inclined to be ordained, then they must fill most of their day doing mundane things to keep a roof over their head, clothe and feed themselves and family, provide medical treatment when necessary, and set aside a proportion for the future. To do otherwise would be negligent and irresponsible, and place a burden on society. By the time most of us in nations with a Social Security system reach retirement age, pensions will be miniscule and available only to a very few hardship cases. As you describe yourself as young middle-aged, it may be necessary to gather information as soon as possible about how to have a comfortable retirement in the country you will retire in. It may involve seeking the advice of an independent retirement counsellor in that particular country, and, after consideration and validating of the advice, putting a structured plan into effect, even if that means retraining in order to obtain available work. This may bring peace of mind to your wife. It will also cause you discuss 'how' and 'where' you want to live now and in the future. I, myself, leave home any time after 7.00 a.m. and arrive home, after an emotionally and physically exhausting day, anytime after 6.00 p.m. and I only live 15 minutes drive from work. Many members work much longer hours away from the home, and are often away from family for weeks at a time. One needs to be organised - especially given the rights of family to have quality time with you also. The Buddha encouraged lay people to be responsible about family finances, and safeguard what wealth they had. Being a Buddhist lay person requires a skillful balance between spiritual and mundane areas of life. The Vyagghapajja Sutta - the Buddha outlines how householders can safeguard wealth: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054.html The Sigalovada Sutta - particularly Part 4 'The Layperson's Code of Discipline' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn31.html There are no moments that are more special or suitable for dhamma study and practice. I hope others will explain in detail how dhammas are arising in each moment and any can be insighted and understood as they really are. Beginning to see existence as it really is, can initially be such a lonely, cold experience that it is tempting to turn back to the warm and loving delusions of soul, creator, or ground of all being. It gets better. :-) At these times we need to remember Azita's sign off - courage, patience and good cheer. Additionally, it would be very foolish to either assume that both you and partner will live a long life, or that both will die around the same time, which is what we do when we project an idea of living into the distant future. Reality is often very different. I'm sure the UP have discussions on The Present Moment being all there is. Do you remember this quote: "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night." Majjhima Nikaya 131. Bhaddekaratta Sutta.(trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi) Getting a partner, child or loved friend interested in the Dhamma requires a deft touch and great skill - as well as a long time frame. And they have to have the accumulations for it. Otherwise, the effect can be to firm up a resistance which will lead to dukkha for them and yourself. In the final analysis, we can only take care of our own spiritual progress - remember there were many who heard a living Buddha but who weren't impressed (imagine that!), and didn't understand - he couldn't 'save' them or change their accumulations. I'd better stop here - but such an interesting subject for reflection - Do you know the definition I most love of what a friend is? "A friend is someone before whom I can think aloud" - thanks for taking the risk and trusting us by asking these sorts of questions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Phil, and all, > > I'm awfully sorry, but I've been thinking about your post all day and > I'm afraid that you just can't withdraw your questions!:-) > > I almost replied this morning but had to rush out to my tyrant of a > travel agent to pay for my flights to Bkk in April - and then visit > rellies on that side of town. > > I think it was a great post, and just the sort of questions we all > have on daily life. What's the point of the dhamma if it doesn't > impact on how we live, and on how we think about our lives and > relationships in the 'real' world? > You say you're neurotic - I think the scriptures say somewhere that > All Puthujjana's are Mad - so does this mean you're really normal and > on-track? :-) > > I'll get back to you as soon as I rearrange my thoughts on it. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hello again, all. > > > > If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it > > could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words > > helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a > > smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, > I > > think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen > > did. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > > > > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this > subject, > > > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque > > posts > > > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion > of > > > dhammas. > > > 31536 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:48am Subject: Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Group, RobertK has written this post on D.O. and I thought dsg members might find it worthwhile to consider also. metta, Chris --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear group, This is an old letter I wrote about Dependent Origination:: Dear friend you ask "what is the support of ignorance in dependent arising. In other words, what is ignorant" This is the type of inquiry into the teachings that we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them. I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if there is no self in Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant. Dependent arising, the paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to understand, even in theory. And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a Buddha can fully comprehend and teach it. It is an extremely pithy description of the conditions for birth and death, both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There are many suttas that describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra details that the commentaries give to get a correct understanding of just what it is about. Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of the Visuddhimagga (after misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy re- reading it; so I will refer to the concise explanations given there (and since you have the Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more details directly). The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to paticasamupadda under the section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in which understanding grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than mere memory but not yet the highly developed direct understanding) of the khandas, ayatanas (bases) faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya etc. The first vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of this soil. See XIV 32. It says that one who wants to develop the roots should "first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that are the soil" Your question is very much part of the process of developing wisdom. The first point is that there is no one involved in this description of conditions. The paticcasamupada is simply a description of changing processes. Thus it is not "we" who are having ignorance, nor is it "us" who is being reborn or dying. The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge of anatta, not-self, becomes. Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle. However, at the parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions for it to continue. All namas and rupas cease arising. Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja, ignorance. Visuddhimagga XVII 43: " it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of collection in the aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the bases(ayatanas)…..the meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents knowing the meaning of dukkha described in the four ways as `oppression etc'..Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and objects of eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination." In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true nature of paramattha dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each other. The commentary to the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield from PTS)defines it (p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]. At the moments we are developing correct understanding of dhammas there is a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of ignorance, just a little, just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating then eventually the gloom is dispelled and brightness rules. Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not completely eradicated until arahantship. But even before one reaches the first stge of enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being attenuated by insight into the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the times of a Buddha sasana that such insight can be developed. I would also like to add something about another factor of the paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand. See Visuddhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. I emphasize this because one of the big mistakes I made in my early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense desire. It got so bad I would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. This comes from an idea of control and self. And it is not the way to understand. First there must be a gradual removal of wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand them –not suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in comprehending this point as "sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)" Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire clinging not realising that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of the other types of clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of paticcasamupada; but are only spinning it faster. The path is profound. At the moments there is understanding of any reality - for example, lust, at those moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to supress lust we may succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the more subtle clingings that were present. Robert --- End forwarded message --- 31537 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > RobertK has written this post on D.O. and I thought dsg members might > find it worthwhile to consider also. .... There are also these posts (inc. several of Rob’s) in U.P. If anyone has spare time over the weekend or following weeks, they may like to take a look and repost any as relevant in the study corner: Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) 822, 8562, 11031, 11168, 11210,11223, 11234, 11326, 11425, 11609, 12256, 12286, 12346, 12723, 20634, 29364, 29435, 30771, 30984 Metta, Sarah ====== 31538 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Larry (and Nina) I've been following this thread between you and Nina. I hope you don't mind if I come in here. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, Larry: I can't make out what you are saying. I am trying to make the case that relationships are ultimately real. Do you reject that or not? Jon: Relationships are real, but they are not dhammas because, by definition, they describe *what obtains between 2 dhammas*. Relationships are not the same as attributes of dhammas but, like those attributes, can only be known by developed understanding of dhammas. That is to say, as dhammas are known more and more by sati/panna, both the attributes of the individual dhammas and the relationships between different dhammas becomes more and more apparent. In other words, relationships cannot be directly known independently of a direct understanding of dhammas. Larry: "Dependent arising" is about relationships is it not? The "cause" of suffering and the "way" to the end of suffering are both relationships. Jon: To my understanding, knowledge of DA and of the Four Noble Truths is likewise the outcome of developed understanding of individual dhammas. Larry: First you reject "image" and now you reject "color". I cannot write without words. How can we communicate? Apparently for you visible data "without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. There is natural relationship there already, a group. Jon: Personally I find it easier to talk about one of the other doorways first, so let's try that. The rupa that is audible object is also part of a group of rupas (kalapa) and each kalapa is but 1 of many arising at more or less the same time. But only that particular rupa is experienced by hearing consciousness, so if there is awareness that particular rupa, and not anything else, can be its object. Would you agree that there is no "whatever it is that you hear" *in* the audible data. For example, if conventionally speaking there is hearing of the sound of a person's voice, there are no words *in* the audible data, if of music, no notes, and so on. There is just the audible data; the rest is the product of mental processing. Same thing must apply in the case of visible data experienced through the eye. But we have so much ignorance and wrong view about, and clinging to, the world as we normally perceive it that the reality of the moment of bare experience is never apparent to us, and is even difficult to understand conceptually. I hope this helps. Jon 31539 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Howard, :-) The basic tune would probably stay, but maybe I will develop some `variations on a theme' and while improvising, add some new harmonics and changing rhythms. And I guess the refrain will also have to change accordingly. ;-) Howard: > Sukin, forgoing techno-speak for the moment, let me ask you whether > you can hold your breath for a few seconds (I *know* that you can! ;-) Now, that > is exercising control. You will, of course reply that there is no self who > exercised anything. Sukin: Variation 1. The control is an illusion. (But even this I have said before. ;-)) I once gave the example of a child being taught to draw perfect circles. That he didn't need to know what it is, yet on the surface his circle would match of that done by a mathematician (named Howard). But what Howard knows about circles and what conditioned his drawing is totally different from the child's. In the same way, within any individual, day to day activities done with a sense of control, does not require that the conditions which motivated these are known. *But we do choose to identify with a certain mental image, where there is an "I" acting upon the environment*. This very idea, be it to develop kusala or panna, or simply to go to the supermarket to buy food, is maintained and fortified by other images, namely the `result'. Going to the supermarket and buying exactly what was intended, did not require any knowledge about `other' realities and concepts that were objects of consciousness. Yet it gave rise to a sense of `self having done something'. We can perform conventional actions with little chance of going wrong, for example, `holding the breath'. But this is possible only because the concept of `holding the breath' is being reinforced again and again, so that this activity lasts as long as it does. Also there *are* realities arising alternately all the time, like pain and more thinking about `self', so we don't suffocate to death. In all this there is no self and no real control, just the illusion created by avijja. Howard: And I will agree, and reply "So what?"! This is still an > instance of what people normally and conventionally mean by exercising control. Sukin: Precisely! And this is what feeds on the illusion of self and control and hence making more fast the wheel of samsara. ;-) Howard: > Now, you will likely follow up by saying that the volition that leads to the > breath-holding is not uncaused, but arises automatically from conditions. And I > will reply "Of course that is so! Sukin: Variation 2. I would say that there is no `self' who holds the breath and `breath- holding' is just an idea. When we use conventional examples to justify our understanding of a reality, without really understanding those realities, we reinforce our wrong understanding. Nina has discussed about body intimation and has all along talked about the universal, particular and specific cetasikas. It is *these* that lies behind what we conceive as a `being', and specifically it is avijja which hides the realization of this, giving rise to the idea such as, `we can exercise volition'. `Volition *is*, but why the need for identification? Is there some goal aimed for? Is this why one needs to justify the volition? Why not have some confidence in the dhamma, why not allow the accumulated panna do its job without any wish to speed up the process? Howard: What sort of volition would baseless > volition be? I would be pure randomness! What sort of appeal would anyone > find in a willing that is willing for no reason whatsoever? Sukin: You said it Howard. The appeal! It must appeal. Everyone is so attached to results and the idea of `self' getting there. Which is why they not only create a goal, but they also create an illusion of achieving something. Everyone is blissfully unaware and all support one another in to being reelected into samsara. ;-) Howard: Why, no appeal! Of *course* > volition, like all conditioned phenomena, arises due to causes and > conditions.So what?" Sukin: Because paramattha dhammas always escape our awareness. Which is why we must first learn about their characteristics. Theoretically at first and slowly grow familiar with their gross (snowball effect) manifestations, and gradually we may come to know them well enough to know what they *really do*, by direct experience. And only then can either of us say anything really substantive about volition. ;-) > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. Maybe we should just record this conversation, so that we can play it > back in the future, saving unnecessary finger exercise on the keyboard! What do > you think? > ;-)) Sukin: I'll try to remember. Oh, but would I actually remember just because I intend to do so? ;-) Metta, Sukin. Ps: Howard, since you are now retired, why don't you plan an Asian tour with your wife? You could plan it such a way, that you can be in Bangkok in the middle of next month, when Jon, Sarah and the others are here? And maybe we can discuss about this live?! ;-) 31540 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:25am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, You said: If striving to attain the goal is akusala, there would be no Buddhas. Sukin: Firstly, not all striving is akusala. Secondly, the Bodhisattva resolved to become the Buddha at a time when he *had* the accumulations to become enlightened, but only as a Savaka. Which means that his panna was so great, that he knew quite clearly about realities, including `to resolve'. It is because of the panna associated with this that caused the subsequent `striving'. However, after that particular life, up until the time he did become the Buddha, whatever he did was *with self*. So all his striving was with self, and *no knowledge of anatta*. This is the difference. So you too can `strive', but this may be at the expense of the understanding of anatta.;-) Metta, Sukin 31541 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear and Great Jon: > Jon: > Relationships are real, but they are not dhammas because, by > definition, they describe *what obtains between 2 dhammas*. > > Relationships are not the same as attributes of dhammas but, like > those attributes, can only be known by developed understanding of > dhammas. That is to say, as dhammas are known more and more by > sati/panna, both the attributes of the individual dhammas and the > relationships between different dhammas becomes more and more > apparent. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems to me an old Bertrand Russel´s quote about propositional logic: - One says "Scott is Waverley´s author". Propositional logic evaluates the value (if any) of the links and relationships between the concepts of 'Scott" and 'Waverley´s Author´...but what´s being said anyway? The only real entities in these declaration are 'Scott' - a classic writter - and 'Waverley´s author' - a sentence that is the same at the preceeding subject: two Dhammas with no relationship between them, since they are the same! Going further on, many oriental languages haven´t even got the present tense "to be" expressed on such sentences! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jon: > Personally I find it easier to talk about one of the other doorways > first, so let's try that. > > The rupa that is audible object is also part of a group of rupas > (kalapa) and each kalapa is but 1 of many arising at more or less the > same time. But only that particular rupa is experienced by hearing > consciousness, so if there is awareness that particular rupa, and not > anything else, can be its object. > > Would you agree that there is no "whatever it is that you hear" *in* > the audible data. For example, if conventionally speaking there is > hearing of the sound of a person's voice, there are no words *in* the > audible data, if of music, no notes, and so on. There is just the > audible data; the rest is the product of mental processing. > > Same thing must apply in the case of visible data experienced through > the eye. But we have so much ignorance and wrong view about, and > clinging to, the world as we normally perceive it that the reality of > the moment of bare experience is never apparent to us, and is even > difficult to understand conceptually. > > I hope this helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Excelent!!! Mettaya, ícaro 31542 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:19am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > Firstly, not all striving is akusala. Well, according to you, all striving with "self" is akusala. > However, after that particular life, up until the time he did > become the Buddha, whatever he did was *with self*. So all his > striving was with self, and *no knowledge of anatta*. Rephrased in another way, are you claiming that the Tathagatha achieved Buddhahood by means of unskillful (akusala) actions? Regards, Swee Boon 31543 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:18am Subject: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 3/18/04 8:35:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, I wrote: > I find this amusing, Sarah, the presentation as granite-engraved edict > that there "always is an object." How edifying to know that someone has said > > so in some book somewhere. You ask for a reference. The reference is my > direct > experience of no subject and no objects, but experience nonetheless. This is > > all the reference that I require. (I could go on with a discussion of how, > in > the unravelling phases of D.O., the cessation of vi~n~nana conditions the > cessation of namarupa, and point out how this could only reasonably mean > that with > the cessation of (sense of) knowing subject there occurs the cessation of > known objects, but any such discussion becomes irrelevant when one has > directly > experienced a state of neither subject nor object.) > As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the > following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there is, > in > reality, no knowing subject. Now I'm not clear on what you consider 'object' > or > 'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to be > mutually dependent. If you do, then with no subject there is no object. If, > on the > other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than > "phenomenon" > or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, > continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and there > is content > to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as "experience" > > to be an inadequate and misleading definition. > > ========================== I just reread this reply of mine and I am unhappy with it. I am sorry I didn't use a much softer tone. My post obviously expresses annoyance, which is my problem, not yours. I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a "reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually experienced what I did directly experience. That was how I reacted, which probably was well off-base and surely was a thrashing about of ego! Happily, with regard to a reference, Swee Boon thought of the Kalakarama Sutta, which was, indeed, directly relevant. But in any case, there was no justification for annoyance on my part. I do recognize that what one *thinks* one experiences is not always correct, our "understanding" at all times being under the sway, to some degree or other, of confusion, and it is not unreasonable for you to want to inquire into my interpretation of the experience, and to want to see whether there are reports of similar experiences from sources that you respect. It is still the case that I haven't the slightest doubt that my experience consisted of the absence of a dualistic, knowing-known event, and that while there was multisensory experiential content, there yet was no knowing that was separate from the content, and the content at no time was an object of such a subjective knowing. The experience was no more subjective than objective, and no more objective than subjective. And it is misleading to say it was both, and it is misleading to say it was neither. This is the way it was, and the Kalakarama Sutta really does describe it well. But I recognize that my claimed lack of doubt in the matter should in no way be satisfactory for you. I apologize for my ego-bound annoyance, and, more importantly, I apologize for letting it be expressed with a flavor of sharpness in my post to you. I am particularly displeased with the sarcastic second sentence of mine that I quote above. Sarcasm is far from right speech. Clearly, my experience, which produced some very important and very useful fallout in my life, still very much left my ego sense well intact! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31544 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Eznir, Thanks for your very gentle and considerate post. :-) You said: > The story about using the raft to cross the stream and leaving it > behind as one proceeds on his way.... has no meaning if not > understood in this context of 'control' or 'aiming for results'. Or should we say, that the real meaning would be understood, only when we have reached that stage of development. ;-) > Of course there is no 'self' who does the controlling or who aims for > results, but there comes a stage, as things proceed, when this need > to 'control' or 'aim for results'(that *this*) becomes meaningless! > At which time one leaves them behind, like the raft, and proceeds on > his way. What would be the raft for one who is developing intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teachings? > If one has developed ones eyesight to even see the microbes swimming > in ones blood stream, why take a blood sample and use a microscope to > see them! One can now do a way with those paraphernalia. Just like > that! The problem is when we so called, "use a microscope", we don't notice that our eyes have become watery due to eagerness, and so what we see is distorted. Though we may manage to get our theory right, we still have to watch out for Tanha. > But you are right, Sukin. There is no doer or self and only Dhammas > that rise and fall. Howard is also right! But how do we reconcile > this situation? The "Truth" will do both of us much good. ;-) > I see it this way. All these words and phrases that we are using in > this discussion is only a conventionality that represent our point of > view of what Lord Buddha said. In the mind they are simply qualities > with no words nor phrases. Yes. > Take a puthujjana and an arahant. They too are two ends of the same > stick. And a sekha stands in-between! Looking at a sekha from the > puthujjana's end of the `stick' he is not an arahant as he still has > things to do. Looking from the arahant's end he is not a puthujjana > because he has overcome three of the ten fetters that define a > puthujjana. > > Now where do *we* stand on this `stick'? It is from this standpoint > of view that *we* should traverse(application of the 4 noble truths) > towards the arahant's end of the stick. It is all well that *we* > should have a `perfect' view of what the Dhamma is, but if that is > not where *we* stand, then *we* should know how to get there. Yes, continue to read, listen and ponder, not to be accumulating `information', but to understand. But even if we do this, a great many other conditions will determine if in fact there will be any understanding. And then, when this theoretical level will condition the practice level and how much of that will ultimately condition realization. > Intention is action. It is this right intention accompanied with > right view that gets one to the goal. All the cetasikas accompanying mundane insight will be sobhana, so in a way, you could say that the intention will also be `right'. However, as I understand it, `Intention' does not play any major role with regard to this. The little that I have read, I think the Buddha stressed on Panna, Sati, Concentration and Effort. If anything, I think what determines if a kusala `action' will be completed, is "effort", and this may be why the Buddha stressed quite a bit about this factor. But what is the quality of effort depending on? The other path factors or cetasikas. Let me give you a personal example. Some time ago, I heard on tape, K. Sujin giving the example of two people having the desire to `give'. In one person there is desire to give, but he does not, because there is lack of effort to do it promptly. The second one does, immediately. Soon after I was confronted with a situation where I hesitated to give, not because I didn't have feelings of dana, but it required a little work. At that moment I remembered what K. Sujin said, I saw that the only thing that was holding me back was lack of effort. At this point, effort was aroused, and I gave. The `intention' was more or less the same, but when I gave, I believe panna saw thina and mida, and effort was aroused. > And as *we* traverse in that > direction *we* should shed all the erroneous thoughts that *we* > harboured so far(cessation of `little' dukkhas) that contributed to > the wrong understanding of the Dhamma. And how does one know the > folly of our thoughts? By our own experience of the Dhamma, and > definitely not by referencing to external sources! True. But what foundation is experiential knowledge based upon? Intellectual knowledge, isn't it? Without a firm intellectual knowledge to condition practice and developing understanding through increased familiarity of the characteristic of dhammas, what does it mean to learn and grow in wisdom? If our present level is such that whatever reflection that is done, does not escape any limited and distorted way that we might interpret experiences, is it not wise to reference the external source, namely the Texts? > Since kamma is still active in a non-arahant, things cannot be as > autonomous as one would like to believe, like in inanimate things. > The essential difference between inanimate and animate things is life- > action, kamma, the ability to choose(intention). This sounds like a western philosophical idea? Isn't life more than just to be able to choose (which I don't believe in. ;-)). > No matter how perfect our theoretical understanding of the intricacies of the > Dhamma is, in every moment of our existence we face this > question, "what to do with this moment?" And the best course of > action would be to do that course of action that would cease the need > to do that course of action, eventually!(that is when we leave the > raft and go our ways). And what if one sees at that point, that *this* moment is already conditioned and with it comes detachment, isn't this already an instance of `leaving the raft' no matter how slightly? ;-) Thanks for you comments. It is good to communicate with you. Metta, Sukin. 31545 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > > Firstly, not all striving is akusala. > > Well, according to you, all striving with "self" is akusala. I am feeling somewhat lazy to look at my own posts to see whether if and where I said this. If I did make such a statement, then I must have had you and I in mind. And this too, particularly with referrence to the development of satipatthana. In any case, I do not maintain such a position, and it should have been apparent had you considered why I even wrote the post you were responding to in the first place. My point was to show that only the Buddha's Aditthana could arouse a generally kusala oriented practices in the future. However, yes I would maintain that any striving with `self' with respect to development of "satipatthana" is akusala, namely `wrong view'. And this is considered the worst of the akusala kammapatthas. > > However, after that particular life, up until the time he did > > become the Buddha, whatever he did was *with self*. So all his > > striving was with self, and *no knowledge of anatta*. > > Rephrased in another way, are you claiming that the Tathagatha > achieved Buddhahood by means of unskillful (akusala) actions? Any Swee Boon, Sukin or Howard would know that the Buddha was developing the paramis to perfection, which is definitely KUSALA. Got to go to sleep now. :-) Metta, Sukin. 31546 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: char. of rupas, 3. char. of rupas, 3. As to impermanence, aniccatå, the ³Atthasåliní², in the same section, states about it as follows: ... Fully defined, impermanence of matter has the characteristic of complete dissolution, the merging of matter as function, destruction and evanescence as manifestation, matter undergoing dissolution as proximate cause. As soon as rúpa has arisen, it is led onward to its termination and it breaks up completely, never to come back again. Remembering this is still theoretical knowledge of the truth of impermanence, different from right understanding that realizes the arising and falling away of a nåma or a rúpa. When understanding has not yet reached this stage one cannot imagine what it is like. One may tend to cling to ideas about the arising and falling away of phenomena but that is not the development of understanding. Nåma and rúpa have each different characteristics and so long as one still confuses nåma and rúpa, their arising and falling away cannot be realized. Understanding is developed in different stages and one cannot forego any stage. First there should be a precise understanding of nåma as nåma and of rúpa as rúpa so that the difference between these two kinds of realities can be clearly seen. It is only at a later stage in the development of understanding that the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa can be directly known. The ³Atthasåliní² (in the same section) compares birth, decay and death to three enemies, of whom the first leads someone into the forest, the second throws him down and the third cuts off his head. We read: ... For birth is like the enemy who draws him to enter the forest; because he has come to birth in this or that place. Decay is like the enemy who strikes and fells him to earth when he has reached the forest, because the aggregates (khandhas) produced are weak, dependent on others, lying down on a couch. Death is like the enemy who with a sword cuts off the head of him when he is fallen to the ground, because the aggregates having attained to decay, are come to destruction of life. This simile reminds us of the disadvantages of all conditioned realities that do not last and are therefore no refuge. However, when understanding (paññå) has not realized the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, one does not grasp their danger.... Integration, continuity, decay and destruction are characteristics inherent in all rúpas, they do not have their own distinct nature, thus, they are asabhåva rúpas. They are not produced by the four factors of kamma, citta, food and temperature. The ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 79) explains: ...But ³rúpa as characteristic² is called not born of anything. Why? because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breaking up of what has arisen... Nina. 31547 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Philip, Spring is coming but here we have now rain and storm. For you too early for the sakura. I learnt that a Japanese letter should begin with the season. op 20-03-2004 01:46 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > My problem is that - as I posted before- the circumstances of my > life demand that I try to make money, and my new small degree of > right understanding shows me that intending to make money through > concepts/writing is a recipe for great deepening of defilements > rather than progress on uprooting them. N: I asked Lodewijk. He said: Thus, listen to okusan. Look, the Buddha gave very practical advices to laypeople, such as in the Sigalovaada sutta (D.N. Dialogues of the Buddha, no 31). No contradiction between being practical in your daily life and the development of right understanding. They can and should be combined. In this sutta, he speaks about earning money and saving a certain percentage for one's own use, and some for giving away. You carry the Dhamma wherever you go and as to reading, it is not the quantity that matters. Even if you carefully consider a few words you can gain in understanding. Ph: I think the problem comes down to the fact that my best friend/life > partner/wife Naomi has no interest in Buddhism (snipped) > So one thing to do is to help her understand the Buddha's teaching. >..... I am interested in talking to Rob K someday about > how he manages to get Japanese friends and students interested in > dhamma, because in my experience there is aversion to Buddhism on the > part of many Japanese because Buddhism has come to be associated > strictly with funerals and payment priests in exchange for chanting. N: Yes, you can help by talking about life, events, problems you meet, that is dhamma. Dhamma is for application and you do not need to mention the word Abhidhamma or Buddhism. I know the rites are concentrated on the dead, but there is quite another side. (Lodewijk says, go to Koyasan, another side of Japan) I found that even in the middle of a cocktail party (that was my life) it was very easy to talk about problems of life, about deeper things within five minutes. About Dhamma without mentioning Dhamma. One can be very direct. Provided it is in Japanese, kokoro kara (from the heart) you know. I was there only one and a half year, but it was quite an experience, such direct contact. I know very little Kanji, but each Kanji can be a Buddhist lesson. Take *ima*, now, we can talk a lot about it. Or talk about patience. Or peace, heiwa. What is true peace? So with Naomisan, she needs her own time. We must have great respect for others' accumulations. You can gently bring in accumulations, and be an understanding person (as A. Sujin always says) when discussing the problems people in your surroundings may cause, your own problems, characters of different people, problems concerning disease and death. It is so actual. You can see that the Abhidhamma is life. Ph: > I am feeling confused and fearful about how to balance a sincere > interest in the Buddha's teaching with a need to think about the > market place. N: The Dhamma is in the market place, see, it is so natural. Everywhere is dhamma. Thus, no need for fear. As to reading and posting, it is not in the quantity. Make it short posts, it saves you time. Like Mike. He has a busy life. He wrote to me: We have something to reflect on. It is difficult to apply Dhamma in times of trouble, I know. But still, it is worth trying, and very necessary to do so. To conclude with a reminder from Dan that Rob K quoted: prescribing a ritual to guarantee enlightenment, the Buddha > described the nature of reality and suggested that we carefully > consider his words, not just intellectually, but as they apply to each > moment in the day."> Each moment, *ima* again! Nina. 31548 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, > I can't make out what you are saying. I am trying to make the case that > relationships are ultimately real. Do you reject that or not? "Dependent > arising" is about relationships is it not? N: I think you mean how different dhammas are related to each other by different conditioning factors and in different ways. L:The "cause" of suffering and > the "way" to the end of suffering are both relationships. N: yes. But in order to understand conditional relations we have to clearly know the different dhammas involved. We have to be very precise. That is why we study the items in the Vis. one after the other. Otherwise we shall not understand in which ways they are related. They are related in many different ways. L: First you reject "image" and now you reject "color". N: I mean defining different colours is not seeing but already thinking. It is best not to mind about image or this or that colour. *Something* appears through eyes, just for a moment, no need for words. L:I cannot write > without words. How can we communicate? N: right. And also when hearing words you think about the meaning. But what is the dhamma that is heard? Sound. Remember when we studied the four discriminations, and we read about language (nirutti). It is said that the reality is sound. We should also learn the difference between hearing and thinking of the meaning. So many sounds are heard in a day, but you do not always have to think: this is the sound of traffic, this is a radio. When someone speaks to you, there is not each second defining what you hear, there is also just hearing. If there were no hearing of sound how could you get the meaning? Now is the time to apply what we learnt in the Visuddhimagga. Earsense is rupa, it is ready for impact of sound, just sound, nothing else, so that hearing can arise. Sound is rupa, hearing is nama, they have different characteristics. Earsense is base and also the doorway for the experience of sound. Hearing arises at the earbase. Thinking about the meaning arises at the heartbase. There are many processes going on so fast: a word can consist of different syllables and imagine, in between there are mind-door processes of cittas that remember meanings. Sa~n~naa does its task of marking and remembering, so that you can remember a whole sentence which has a meaning. Countless processes involved, as Christine reminded us of in her . L: Apparently for you visible data > "without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. > I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there > is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. N: No, there is not more to it. But it takes time for us worldlings to understand. We make life more complicated than necessary. L: There is natural relationship there already, a group. N: Not yet, not yet! Seeing only sees all that appears through the eyesense. When seeing arises at the eyebase, there is no thinking of conditions, of groups. Just plain seeing. It is not as complicated as you think. What I said about hearing applies to seeing and all sense-cognitions. Visible object is in a group together with the other seven inseparables, but, as we discussed, only visible object can impinge on the eyesense and be seen, not the others. Thus, it is impossible to see a whole group of rupas. Visible object is the only rupa out of twentyeight that is visible. See Dhammasangani! Visible and impinging. As I see it, this is essential. When thinking on account of seeing etc. arises, defilements are bound to arise. Read all the suttas about this. If dhammas are not distinguished we are entangled. It seems that seeing and hearing arise at the same time, or seeing and thinking. We do not know the difference between sense-door processes and mind-door processes, they follow one upon the other extremely fast. We do not even realize when there are defilements, especially when they are subtle. Nina. 31549 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Victor, which part of the Samiddhisutta is this? I have the Pali text and can check. Nina. op 20-03-2004 02:37 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said > > > Having shed classifications, > gone beyond conceit, > he has here > cut > through craving > for name > & form: > > > I wonder if shedding of classification is also meant by the > principle/criteria of shedding. Perhaps it can be further examined > textually by looking into the Pali original for the word 'shedding.' 31550 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Nina, That would great! Thank you. The passage I quoted is from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-020.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > which part of the Samiddhisutta is this? I have the Pali text and can check. > Nina. > op 20-03-2004 02:37 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > > I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said > > > > > > Having shed classifications, > > gone beyond conceit, > > he has here > > cut > > through craving > > for name > > & form: > > > > > > I wonder if shedding of classification is also meant by the > > principle/criteria of shedding. Perhaps it can be further examined > > textually by looking into the Pali original for the word 'shedding.' 31551 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 3/20/04 1:53:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > L: Apparently for you visible data > >"without conceptual interpretation" (sanna?) is neither image nor color. > >I really can't believe this, but the point of my argument is that there > >is more than one "whatever it is that you see" in this visible data. > N: No, there is not more to it. But it takes time for us worldlings to > understand. We make life more complicated than necessary. > L: There is natural relationship there already, a group. > N: Not yet, not yet! Seeing only sees all that appears through the eyesense. > When seeing arises at the eyebase, there is no thinking of conditions, of > groups. Just plain seeing. > =========================== I must be a little nutty, but I agree with both of you! ;-)) I certainly agree that when there is (just) seeing, there is nothing but visual content, and only afterwards mental operations add to the information. However, what I also think, and this may be what Larry is driving at, is that the visual content is not a homogeneous sameness or blank slate, but consists of a visual pattern that is the basis for the subsequent sa~n~nic and sankharic processing, and, thus, the details (re)cognized after the fact are not created out of whole cloth. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31552 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Jon and Nina, Huh??? What??? Never mind. Larry ps: Remember, everything you see is edible. Insight into anatta can be found in group dynamics. 31553 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Vism.XIV 67 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 67. And in the Commentary, after saying 'It is genesis that is called "setting up", increase that is called "growth", occurrence that is called "continuity" ', this simile is given: 'Genesis as setting up is like the time when water comes up in a hole dug in a river bank; increase as growth is like the time when it fills [the hole]; occurrence as continuity is like the time when it overflows'. And at the end of the simile it is said: 'So what is stated? Setting up is stated by sense-base; sense-base is stated by setting up'. Consequently, it is the first genesis of material instances that is their 'setting up'; the genesis also of others that are generated in addition to those is 'growth' since it appears in the aspect of increase; the repeated genesis also of others that are generated in addition to those is 'continuity' since it appears in the aspect of anchoring. This is how it should be understood to have been declared thus. 31554 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Howard It was kind of you to write this follow-up, which I'm sure Sarah will appreciate when she sees it. As I was planning to come in on your earlier post anyway, I'll pick up the thread here. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Sarah - ... Howard: I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a "reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually experienced what I did directly experience. ... Happily, with regard to a reference, Swee Boon thought of the Kalakarama Sutta, which was, indeed, directly relevant. Jon: It may not have been apparent to Sarah (it certainly wasn't to me) that in your earlier post you were claiming to speak purely from personal experience when you said: "In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, phenomena are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no objects. There is a mutual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience continued." I assumed that you were describing the arahant's position as you understood it from a reading of the texts, and were incidentally alluding to a somewhat similar experience for yourself. From what you now say, however, it seems that you were perhaps iimputing to the arahant a position based on experiences of your own, for which you have managed to find a matching description somewhere in the texts. In my view this is an ultimately self-defeating approach to the study of the teachings. (I am reminded of another member who, using a similar approach, is convinced that he has high attainments and that he and he alone understands correctly the meaning of samatha (jhana) and vipassana.:-)). Getting back to the core dhamma issues being discussed here, however, the ideas of 'losing a sense of self', 'loss of subjectivity', and 'loss of objects' are not ones that I am familiar with from the texts. Perhaps you cloud elaborate on your understanding of the Kalakarama Sutta in this regard, or mention any other references that have since come to mind. Howard: I do recognize that what one *thinks* one experiences is not always correct, our "understanding" at all times being under the sway, to some degree or other, of confusion, and it is not unreasonable for you to want to inquire into my interpretation of the experience, and to want to see whether there are reports of similar experiences from sources that you respect. Jon: AS I've mentioned before, I'm not sure how helpful to others is any individual's claimed experience. More helpful in my view is an explanation of the individual's understanding of the teachings, by reference to the body of the teachings (i.e., not as a claimed experience). After all, if individual A and individual B relate dissimilar experiences, the only way to judge which of the two (if either) might be in accordance with the teachings is by reference to the teachings themselves. So why not just go with that from the outset? Of course, one's interpretation of the texts is bound to be influenced by one's own experience, so personal idiosyncrasies will become sufficiently apparent in this manner ;-)). Jon 31555 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Excellent Hasituppada, well said, you have lifted up what has fallen over do to neglect. Very good. However, there is just one small point where you say the following: "He sat by the Bodhi tree and went throught the preliminary stages of meditation by absorption of rupa dna arupa jhana, then he came out of it and with that mind cleared through concentration tried to understand the reality of Dukkha and the suffering in samsara. " While I agree the suttas consistently say the Buddha, and his disciples entered into absorption via jhana, I have not found a reference to support a belief that one "comes out of absorption (jhana) to enter into insight (vipassana)." This may seem like a small point, and when you have done such an excellent job already. However, I believe as long as we keep thinking that jhana and vipassana are somehow separate, I am afraid this duality and actual betrayal of jhana and the Buddha's dhamma, will simply rear its ugly head once again. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/19/04 4:57:29 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:26:56 -0000 From: "hasituppada" Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Friends, I do not personally believe in a "dry" or a "wet" insight. Lord Buddha made his discourse to make his disciples understand the importance of "meditation" the only way out of cycle of death and birth. <.....> 31556 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kayagata-sati Sutta Hello Swee Boon, and thank-you ever so much for your kind response, however I believe if you read the Lohicca Sutta, DN 12 you will see these 6 "higher knowledges" are the very definition of Supramundane, and in fact that is why they are called "higher knowledges," because they are supramundane (lokuttara). They are supramundane because they are need for the ending of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha). Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/19/04 4:57:29 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:04:05 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, It's because the 5 mundane higher knowledges do not lead to the ending of stress. <......> 31557 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:07pm Subject: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Ken O, I find much to agree in what you say. Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption. To me insight is just one of the supramundane fruits of absorption. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:19:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Ken O Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hi Jeffrey Brooks I am not writing dry vs wet insight. I am not interested in which is better than which or which is taught or which is the only way because it does not help one to understand dhamma any better. I am saying a very simple fact, without insight there is no jhanas. <.....> 31558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Victor Thanks for your comments. The relationship between the development of the path and control of the faculties is an interesting one. As I see it, only for the arahant is there is 'perfect control' of the faculties, in that no akusala of any kind arises ever. And the reason why no akusala arises ever is that all latent tendencies for akusala have been eradicated. Thus while the arahant is fully controlled in his/her faculties, it is not a case of the arahant 'exercising/having control' in the sense that that expression is normally used -- there is no need for that kind of volition/effort. For the non-arahant who is developing the path, there is control over the faculties at moments when sati arises to perform that function. Of course, the more that insight has been developed, and the closer a person is to path consciousness, the more frequent will be the arising of sati and so the greater the control. But again, it's not a case of the person 'exercising/having control' in the normal sense of the expression. For the mere beginner there is very little or no control of the faculties. But that will be developed as awareness is gradually developed. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for sharing your thought. I would think that it is > impossible for one to eradicate greed, aversion, and delusion > without keeping control of one's faculties. > > Metta, > Victor 31559 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Phil I think we can all recognise and relate to your experience here of the conceit and self-interest that underlies much of what we do in a day (including what little among what we do that may be kusala). Let me just suggest we shouldn't expect that fundamental state of affairs to change any time soon and, needless to say, if we changed out activities to 'avoid' those associated with conceit or self-interest with the idea that this would be a more kusala course of action then that could just be another pitfall. Regarding the dhamma and hustling your children's picture-book stories, there need not be any conflict, although this can be difficult to see at first. As understanding grows one becomes more skilful in kusala, one sees ways of pursuing the same livelihood with less akusala. So if you have talent, by all means exploit it! An interest in dhamma does not have to interfere with one's personal responsibilities (in fact should be a support in that regard -- but this can take time to see also). Jon --- Philip wrote: > > Hello Jon, Nina and all. ... So I asked myself if there conceit in this, and at first said no. But then as I kept thinking I realized what I was up to. I am seeking to transform the world I live in to make it a pleasant environment to operate in. I am making a beautiful playing ground for self. I thought of that movie "Pleasantville" where all was a black and white world until elements of colour started to arise. I am intentionally seeking to colour my world in a rose-coloured way, to make it into METTA LAND so I can feel comfortable and happy. Also, I think it's metta as an evolutionary tactic. I am in a situation now where I have to get cracking about coming up with ways to make money through my writing. I'm hitting middle age with a small salary, no pension and a wife. Transforming my world to make it a metta field is a kind of evolutionary survival tactic to make Japan a more supportive environment in which I can go out and hustle my children's picture book stories. (Japan is a meeca for picture book writers, because adults read them here too.) The picture book world is a "survival of the friendliest" kind of environment, maybe! Anyways, I see now what I've been up to. I don't think I can afford to stop it right now. I do have to hustle those stories. I do have to generate wordly ambition or my wife and I will be in trouble in our old age. Alas, worldly concerns will handicap my movement towards enlightenment in this lifetime. I think if I were single it would be different. 31560 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Howard Thanks for this explanation. I realise you weren't relating the issue to dependent origination, but anything that holds true as regards the nature of phenomena must of course be consistent with that aspect of the teaching also. Could you elaborate though on the connection between your main point (i.e., dhammas as being not different from their distinctive characteristic) and your follow-on comment that 'there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes'. And, are you saying that the inability to (consistently) distinguish between conditions and attributes is a reflection of our present deluded state, or that it is something that is beyond even developed panna? Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nina) - ... I wasn't relating this issue to dependent origination. My point was merely that each actual dhamma is a single condition, itself, and not some "thing" that satisfies various conditions. Nina's statement "The dhammas themselves are not different from the quality they possess. In fact the Atthasalini says that 'there is no other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly what I had in mind. With metta, Howard 31561 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:46pm Subject: Re: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/20/04 6:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > I assumed that you were describing the arahant's position as you > understood it from a reading of the texts, and were incidentally > alluding to a somewhat similar experience for yourself. From what > you now say, however, it seems that you were perhaps iimputing to the > arahant a position based on experiences of your own, for which you > have managed to find a matching description somewhere in the texts. > > In my view this is an ultimately self-defeating approach to the study > of the teachings. (I am reminded of another member who, using a > similar approach, is convinced that he has high attainments and that > he and he alone understands correctly the meaning of samatha (jhana) > and vipassana.:-)). > ======================== Just for the record: I make no claim whatsoever to "high attainments"! ;-)) I believe that what I had was a very small, initial opening, a kind of insight experience in which there was no sense of subjectivity or corresponding objectivity. The experience was terribly frightening, and, most unfortunately, abandoned as soon as it was possible to do so. As far as it went, it was no more then a taste of what the Zennists would call satori, I guess. It seems to have been a useful event in my life, but I make no more claim for it than that. Part of the usefulness, a small part, was in it enabling me to see that it is actually possible to experience without subject-object duality. It serves as an experiential basis for my interpreting vi~n~nana as subjective (self-oriented) knowing, but that interpretation of vi~n~nana would make sense to me anyway, as I find it clarifies D.O. for me considerably. With regard to the Kalakarama Sutta, I see the following portion of it as describing experience that is free of subject and free of object: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing.... "When sensing.... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. -------------------------------------------------- One more thing: I do believe that when sense of self is fully uprooted (in an arahant) his/her experience then becomes free of any sense of knowing subject and known object. It seems to me that such would have to be the case when atta-sense is completely torn away. This seems close to being tautologous. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31562 From: Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/20/04 7:54:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for this explanation. I realise you weren't relating the > issue to dependent origination, but anything that holds true as > regards the nature of phenomena must of course be consistent with > that aspect of the teaching also. > > Could you elaborate though on the connection between your main point > (i.e., dhammas as being not different from their distinctive > characteristic) and your follow-on comment that 'there is no > consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes'. And, > are you saying that the inability to (consistently) distinguish > between conditions and attributes is a reflection of our present > deluded state, or that it is something that is beyond even developed > panna? > ======================== No, no. sorry I wasn't clear. Forget the word 'consistent' - it added nothing. These were two ways of saying the same thing. Paramattha dhammas are single, direct experiential conditions, and such an event doesn't *have* an attribute or *satisfy* a condition; it *is*a condition. Hardness, for example, is not the attribute or property of something; it is an experiential condition. When we think of a table (a conventional object), the paramattha dhammas that pa~n~natti subsumes, including hardness, are thought of as attributes of the table. But there is no table, and the hardness is not a property of a (non-existent) table, but is a condition. Our tendency to think of paramattha dhammas (like hardness) as characteristics of conventional objects (like tables), carries over to our thinking about paramattha dhammas, themselves, and expecting them to have properties or satisfy conditions - but they do not, they are what they are, direct, elementary experiential conditions, themselves. With metta, Howard > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Nina) - > ... > I wasn't relating this issue to dependent origination. My > point was merely that each actual dhamma is a single condition, > itself, and not some "thing" that satisfies various conditions. > Nina's statement "The dhammas themselves are not different from the > quality they possess. In fact the Atthasalini says that 'there is no > other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly what I had in > mind. > > With metta, > Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31563 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:28pm Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > However, yes I would maintain that any striving with `self' with > respect to development of "satipatthana" is akusala, namely `wrong > view'. And this is considered the worst of the akusala kammapatthas. So, Sukin, is it possible to strive without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'control' without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'select' without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'attempt' without self-identity view? Is it possible to 'try' without self-identity view? Regards, Swee Boon 31564 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:49pm Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, > They are supramundane because they are needed > for the ending of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha). It is not so, Jeff. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html Regards, Swee Boon 31565 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Htoo and Swee Boon Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III, 100, I have checked the 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' translation of the Pansadhovaka Sutta ('Refinement of the Mind' -- see relevant part copied below). I have found the following that may be of interest: 1. A footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the Pali terms for "higher mental states experienced in meditation" referred to in that sutta, and for the "agitation caused by higher states of mind" referred to in the Yuganaddha Sutta AN IV, 170, are different, namely 'dhammavitakka' here vs. 'dhammuddhacca' there, but that the explanation given by the commentary is the same in both cases, namely, the ten corruptions of insight meditation ('dasa vipassanuupakkilesaa). It gives a x-ref to Vism XX, 105-28. 2. Another footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the attainments mentioned in the sutta are the six "super-knowledges" ('abhi~n~naa'), about which it says: "Five of these are mundane; the sixth is the supramundane attainment of arahantship, here called the destruction of the taints('aasavakkhaya'). "The necessary condition for the five super-knowledges is mastery over the fourth jhaana; the foundation for arahantship is the development of insight based on concentration." For the five mundane super-knowledges, a x-ref to Vism Ch. XII and XIII is given. (The other point of interest about the Pansadhovaka Sutta is the phrase "whenever the necessary conditions obtain", which qualifies the description of each of the attainments beginning "If he wishes, ...". According to the footnote, this refers to the preliminary conditions required for the attainments.) 3. As regards the fourth way of attainment of enlightenment mentioned in the Yuganaddha Sutta, a footnote there explains: "'Dhammuddhacca-viggahita.m manasa.m hoti.' According to AA, the "agitation" (uddhacca) meant here is a reaction to the arising of the ten "corruptions of insight" ('vipassananuupakkilesa') when they are wrongly taken as indicating path-attainment." Jon NDB, Text 41, 'The Refinement of the Mind -- 1' ... "When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about *higher mental states experienced in meditation*. That concentration is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity, nor has it achieved mental unification; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements. But there comes a time when his mind becomes inwardly steadied, composed, unified and concentrated. That concentration is then calm and refined; it has attained to full tranquillity and achieved mental unification; it is not maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements. Then, to whatever mental state realisable by direct knowledge he directs his mind, he achieves the capacity of realizing that state by direct knowledge, whenever the necessary conditions obtain. If he wishes ... etc" --- htootintnaing wrote: ... [Swee Boon:] It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html [Yuganaddha Sutta] "Then there is the case where a monk's mind ...becomes unified & concentrated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html [Pansadhovaka Sutta] "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint." [Htoo:] I feel that this type is not labeled which is good, in my opinion. A monk who declared that he attained arahatship in the presence of Venerable Ananda, has his restlessness concerning Dhamma well under control became calm and saw inward and attained arahatta magga nana. Even though it is not stated that whether there is preceeding tranquil or insight, both are there while he attained arahatship. Regarding Sangha Sutta or Pansadhovaka Sutta, I feel it is mentioning vitekkama, pariyutthana, and anusaya kilesa and their screening through sila, samadhi and panna. Latter parts are, I think, cittanupassana and with that bhikkhus attain higher nana. 31566 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Phil I just came across some notes on this general area, based on the Soma Thera translation, I made some time ago now for a post. I thought you might be interested to see the list I came up with then. As Nina says, we need not be too concerned about subtle differences in terminology (although I agree it's interesting to know, and I found Suan's explanation helpful). As you can see from the list, there are many shades of meaning (e.g., 'knows with understanding' vs. 'understands'). Jon From 'The Way of Mindfulness' translation of the Satipatthana Sutta [Body] Mindful, he breathes in thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands 'thinking thus, he trains himself understands: 'I am going'; is a person practising clear comprehension reflects... thinking thus thinks of his own body thus [Feeling] experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... [Consciousness] understands the consciousness with lust [Mental objects] knows with understanding [5 hindrances] thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 enlightenment factors] understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] --- Philip wrote: > Hello all > > I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of > > the satipatthana sutta. 31567 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its commentaries - 3 Dear Group, This post begins to set the scene and shows how the Mahaanidaana Sutta came to be spoken by The Fortunate One - with Aananda's statement as one of the conditions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- "Cast and Setting Among the many suttas on dependent arising spoken by the Buddha, the Mahaanidaana Sutta is the longest and the most detailed; it is also perhaps the richest as a source of insights. Despite its length, however, the Mahaanidaana Sutta does not give the most complete formal exposition of dependent arising. It lacks the abstract formula and a statement of the sequence of cessation. Moreover, its series of conditions omits three factors of the standard version: ignorance, volitional formations, and the six sense bases (avijjaa, sankhaaraa, salaayatana). These omissions have led some scholars to suggest that the twelvefold formulation may be a later augmentation of a shorter original; but such suggestions remain purely conjectural, misleading, and objectionable on doctrinal and textual grounds. All in all, the omissions of the Mahaanidaana Sutta are more than compensated for by its detailed explanations, interesting digressions, and supplementary sections. Indeed, it might well be suspected, contrary to the thesis of historical development, that in the present sutta the Buddha has varied the usual exposition expressly to create an opportunity for such special methods of treatment. [3] The sutta begins when the Venerable Aananda, the Buddha's personal attendant, approaches the Master and exclaims that though dependent arising is deep and appears deep, to himself it seems "as clear as clear can be" (uttaanakuttaanaka). The Pali word uttaana, "clear," also means "shallow," and is sometimes contrasted with "deep" (gambhiira), as in the example given in the commentary. Thus Aananda's words, though doubtlessly innocent and respectful in intent, confront the Buddha with a challenge. They call upon him to reconfirm the profundity of his teaching by demonstrating the depth of its most distinctive doctrine. The Buddha first checks the Venerable Aananda with the gentle admonition: "Do not say so, Aananda! Do not say so, Aananda!" These words, according to the commentary, intimate both praise and reproach. They praise Aananda by implying his special qualities which enabled him to comprehend dependent arising so clearly: his accumulation of merit over many lives, his previous study, his attainment of stream entry, his vast erudition. They reproach him by hinting at the limitations of his understanding: he could never have penetrated conditionality without the guidance of the Buddha; he still remains a stream-enterer barely past the entrance to the path; even when he reaches the final stage or arahatship he will not attain the knowledge of a chief disciple, a paccekabuddha, or a fully enlightened Buddha. In the sutta itself, after restraining the Venerable Aananda, the Buddha corrects him by repeating his original statement on the profundity of dependent arising: "This dependent arising, Aananda, is deep and it appears deep." The phrase about the deep appearance, the subcommentary says, is added to stress the fact that dependent arising is exclusively deep. We might perhaps understand the first phrase to refer to dependent arising as an objective principle, the second to refer to the verbal exposition of that principle. Together they indicate that dependent arising is deep both in essence and in manifestation." 31568 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Philip, No, a very good question, going straight to reality. I did not see it as strange or neurotic, on the contrary. I liked talking to you about daily life problems! Always a good subject. Am I glad you were too late to retract your question, I would not like to have missed Christine's great post. I find the reminders about dukkha in life very helpful, dukkha can hit so hard. Note in the Sigalovadasutta the end: satipatthana is implied in all suttas. Nina. op 20-03-2004 08:20 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > If it's not too late, I'd like to retract my question. (If it > could be called a question...) Just putting my feelings in words > helped to clarify things, as it often does. I hope you will get a > smile out of reading it, anyways. There is some good humour in it, I > think. Maybe I can turn my neuroses into money the way Woody Allen > did. 31569 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Victor: op 20-03-2004 20:00 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: >> >>> I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said >>> >>> >>> Having shed classifications, N:Pali has: pahaasii sankha.m. Pjahati: give up, abandon. Pahaasii: he has abandoned. san"nkhaa: definition, enumeration. He has abandoned (or renounced) notions. My PTS glosses from the Co: The arahat has put away such notions as lusting, being angry, confused. The Co explains that the fairy mentions the eightfold Path. She has understood the Middle Path between self-indulgence and self-torture. Nina. >>> gone beyond conceit, >>> he has here >>> cut >>> through craving >>> for name >>> & form: 31570 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:32am Subject: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Group, "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon 31571 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Regards, Swee Boon 31572 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon and Nina, > > Huh??? What??? Never mind. > > Larry Ouch! A total rejection. Larry, couldn't you please find a little something in my post that you can say you find understandable (you don't necessarily have to agree) ;-)) Oh well, as long as I'm being put in the same boat as Nina I'm happy! Jon > ps: Remember, everything you see is edible. Hmm, needs further pondering on. Is it Zen? Should I come back with "And everything you touch is visible"? I never was any good at these enigmatic retorts. > Insight into anatta can be found in group dynamics. Hmm again. I suppose this list is an instance of group dynamics, so I won't argue with the statement (note: *can be* found, not *is* found)! 31573 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:00am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Howard (and Swee Boon and Jack) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi,Swee Boon (and Jack) - Howard: The statements "There is no self that controls anything" and "There can't be control" are not equivalent - the first does not imply the second. Analogously, there is no self that sees anything, yet there is seeing; there is no self that tastes anything yet there is tasting; and so on, for all the sense domains. Jon: A good point, Howard. Just to develop your analogy a little further, while it can truly be said that "... there is seeing", it's important to realise that the statement 'there is control' or 'there is a tree' would have to be understood as being true in a wholly different way. This is because seeing is one of the phenomena that arise in samsara, whereas 'control' and 'tree' are not, and so they cannot be said to 'be' or 'occur' in the way that seeing and the other dhammas that comprise the aggregates, sense bases and elements do. Howard: There is no absolute control of things, but volition arises and has influence - and that does not require a self. Jon: Agreed, but I think that this is such a generalisation (e.g., 'of things') that we really need to go further and ask what what exactly does volition influence and by what means? Does volition for example influence the immediately following experiences through the sense-doors and, if so, how or to what extent? Howard: Taking 'control' to mean merely 'influence', what is true as I see it is that there is no self who controls anything, but there *is* control. Jon: So you would the statement 'there is control' is correct only if 'control' means 'a degree of influence'!! Doesn't this make something of a mockery of the statement? Is it appropriate to regard being able to *exert a degree of influence* over something as being *in control* of it? (Not a very satisfactory form of control, I'd suggest ;-)). And anyway, as I said above, for the statement to be meaningful we would need to say *over what* there is control. Jon 31574 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jon, > And anyway, as I said above, for the statement to be meaningful > we would need to say *over what* there is control. There is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. But there is control over whether kusala or akusala dhamma arises. This, I think, is the function of cetana. Though cetana is conditioned by many conditions, yet in no way is the function and power of cetana mitigated by way of being conditioned thus. Whether or not self-identity view arises, cetana is still cetana. Control is still control. Cetana is cetana. Self-identity view is self-identity view. The two are not the same. Neither do they always occur together. Regards, Swee Boon 31575 From: hasituppada Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, It is often said a meditator "goes into"* Samadhi, "arrives at"* one pointed concentration, "attains" *jhana "absorptions"*, "attains" *arahathood, "attains" Nibbana, "sit for"* insight meditation and so on and so forth. But you know well Jeff, there is no "goes into"*, "arrives at"* "attains"* "sits for"* "absorptions"*, they are all CONVENTIONAL TERMS used to describe a mental experience, which only the one who experiences knows, and in explaining using "conventional terms" the experience is invariably distorted. That is why it is best not to discuss these experiences with those who have not experienced them, because they are beyond their understanding and will ridicule you through their ignorance of the experience. When I said "comes out of"* Jhana to experience insight, I am using one of these conventional terms. The "coming out of jhana"* is not like opening a door and walk into the openair !!(...and coming back "to sit for"* insight) It is a mental process. In Jhana absorptions you "go in to"* each stage in order, first the first Jhana, then the Second Jhana, third Jhana, and the forth Jhana . When you "enter into"* each jhana there is a predetermined time to "dwell"* in that jhana. It may be five, ten , 15 minutes, one hour or more. At the end of the predetermined time the Jhana "state"* of the mind "falls away"* ( an experienced meditator will know when it has "fallen away"*), and then he predetermines "a period of time"* for the next stage, until you come to the fourth. And at the end of the predetermined time for the forth Jhana absorption, it "falls away"*. The Meditator knows "it has fallen away"*. Then he meditates on the body position , the breath, the elements and "see"* anicca, dukkha and anatma in various ways. The meditator is now "stepping into"* insight meditation. Here he has "finished"* jhana absorptions and" continues"*(if you wish) insight meditation. Discourses only explain the different aspects of the teaching and how a disciple should understand them. The discourses are the sign posts directing the meditator (disciple) to MEDITATION, the only way to "attain"* Nibbana. In several discourses like in the Anapanasati Sutta, it is said the Buddha sees his elders (the senior disciples) teaching the Bikkhus, one a group of ten, another a group of 20, another a group of 30, and another group of 40, and the Buddha is satisfied with the community of Bikkus discussing or stuying in silence. What the Bikkhus were discussing with the elders or what instructions (kammatthana) they received from the elders are not mentioned in the Suttas. The Commentaries are on the Suttas and silent on the issue of instructions given to disciples. Therefore, one cannot every time quote reference to Suttas, when matters fundamental to teachings such as Meditation is discussed. Some Suttas refer to Jhana others do not, that is no reason for us to come to the conculsion there is a"wet" insight and a "dry" insight. Buddha spoke of Anapanasati as an object of meditation, but there are now other objects of meditation., which are not referred to in the Suttas. Samatha is the "spring board"* to Insight, without Samatha you cannot take the" leap"*. To that extent they are " one and the same" integral parts of Meditation. With metta, Hasituppada * conventional terms. _____________________________________________________________________ However, there is just one small point where you say the following: "He sat by the Bodhi tree and went throught the preliminary stages of meditation by absorption of rupa dna arupa jhana, then he came out of it and with that mind cleared through concentration tried to understand the reality of Dukkha and the suffering in samsara. " While I agree the suttas consistently say the Buddha, and his disciples entered into absorption via jhana, I have not found a reference to support a belief that one "comes out of absorption (jhana) to enter into insight (vipassana)." This may seem like a small point, and when you have done such an excellent job already. However, I believe as long as we keep thinking that jhana and vipassana are somehow separate, I am afraid this duality and actual betrayal of jhana and the Buddha's dhamma, will simply rear its ugly head once again. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks 31576 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon Swee Boon as you said that cetana does not mean control. So how does there be a control of kusala and akusla dhamma, which you said the function of cetana. IMHO, control is a mental construct rather than a cetasika. I think a lot of people misunderstand that cetana as a translation of control. The function of cetana is co-ordinating activty, so it is an act, a volition. An act does not mean a control. Since Buddha already said that aggregates are not self, so none can have it thus "let my aggregates be thus, let my aggregates not be thus". Translation of cetana should conform to this principle. How dhamma become akusala or kusala does not merely dependent on cetana, it has other factors like tendecies, accumulations, whether there was wise attention. Ken O 31577 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:06am Subject: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hello all, Browsing around in UPs found this very straightforward sutta passage about right understanding posted by rob k. (see below in its entirety): > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > wholesome states I think one of the greatest benefits of coming across this group is the emphasis that is placed on right understanding. In the past, I would have thought of setting a right intention in the hopes of resultant right speech and right action leading to right understanding as a kind of fruit of the practice. How silly that was. I think it was Sarah who pointed out that my fear of angry outbursts could be sorted out through right understanding, and I have been finding that new tendency to look at my understanding whenever dosa arises. I think right understanding is arising. Right understanding - to the degree that I am capable of it - means understanding myself and others as rupa and nama. That is so undeniably liberating - except when neuroses have their day and cloud right understanding. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right > action springs up. My small moments of right understanding (of true nature of phenomena, which can be grasped intellectually by even a beginner like myself) condition right thinking, which in turn conditions speech and action. (as we see in the opening vs of the dhammapada - "all that we are is the result of what we have thought" - to paraphrase.) Or does this underestimate the rarity and subtlety of right understanding? Those who practice in the tradition of K Sujin see sati as a rare achievment - so why is right understanding not also rare? Can a beginner like myself, who has often enough revealed his gross lack of understanding, also have right understanding at times just by thinking about rupa and nama? (along with the occasional more direct understanding, as I had that afternoon with my wife) That's a leading question. Hopefully you will say, "yes phil, yes - you can." :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I thought this passage from the suttas might be worth a glance. > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > wholesome states. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > springs up. For > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > right effort, > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > right > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right > knowledge > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > springs up. > > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" > 31578 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Ken, > Swee Boon as you said that cetana does not mean control. I don't think I said that! I said that there is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. And that this control is one of the primary functions of cetana. I do not make a distinction between control and cetana. Regards, Swee Boon 31579 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Ken > But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. What I meant is that there can be deliberate consideration whether to take a skilfull or unskillful action. Regards, Swee Boon 31580 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello Jon, and all. Thanks for this, Jon. In the section on mental objects we can find 3 different verbs/verbal phrases: >knows with understanding [5 hindrances] >thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] >understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] >knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 >enlightenment factors] >understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] For a beginner like myself who hasn't cultivated sati to any degree yet, it's a pointless exercise to make assumptions about what the verbs-phrasal verbs imply. Nevertheless, it's interesting, and as I will soon be reading Soma through the past study group, I'll be doing a lot more of it, and probably reading other members' interpretations. (Surely for someone who does have long experience with satipatthana, the difference between "thinks", "understands" and "knows with understanding" must be self-evident - but maybe not, and as Nina says, it shouldn't be dwelled upon.) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: J: > I just came across some notes on this general area, based on the Soma > Thera translation, I made some time ago now for a post. I thought > you might be interested to see the list I came up with then. > > As Nina says, we need not be too concerned about subtle differences > in terminology (although I agree it's interesting to know, and I > found Suan's explanation helpful). As you can see from the list, > there are many shades of meaning (e.g., 'knows with understanding' > vs. 'understands'). (snip) 31581 From: Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/21/04 6:01:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard (and Swee Boon and Jack) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi,Swee Boon (and Jack) - > Howard: > The statements "There is no self that controls anything" and "There can't be > control" > are not equivalent - the first does not imply the second. Analogously, there > is no self > that sees anything, yet there is seeing; there is no self that tastes > anything yet there > is tasting; and so on, for all the sense domains. > > Jon: > A good point, Howard. > > Just to develop your analogy a little further, while it can truly be said > that "... there is > seeing", it's important to realise that the statement 'there is control' or > 'there is a tree' > would have to be understood as being true in a wholly different way. This > is because > seeing is one of the phenomena that arise in samsara, whereas 'control' and > 'tree' are > not, and so they cannot be said to 'be' or 'occur' in the way that seeing > and the other > dhammas that comprise the aggregates, sense bases and elements do. > > Howard: > There is no absolute control of things, but volition arises and has > influence - and that > does not require a self. > > Jon: > Agreed, but I think that this is such a generalisation (e.g., 'of things') > that we really > need to go further and ask what what exactly does volition influence and by > what > means? Does volition for example influence the immediately following > experiences > through the sense-doors and, if so, how or to what extent? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. Volitional impulses have their influence in a graduated and subtle manner over the course of a huge number of mindstates, and with many such impulses participating. We normally only consciously register the causes and effects involved at a very gross level, and we miss most of what is going on. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > Taking 'control' to mean merely 'influence', what is true as I see it is > that there is no > self who controls anything, but there *is* control. > > Jon: > So you would the statement 'there is control' is correct only if 'control' > means 'a > degree of influence'!! Doesn't this make something of a mockery of the > statement? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not to me, does it. To me it is an important clarification. People run to extremes. Observing the inability to experience whatever one wishes to experience, some say "There is no control," and seeing how the desire to stand, for example, can lead to standing, others say "I control my life and destiny." And, as I see it, the reality is neither of these extremes. There is influence but no control, and the influence, itself, is conditioned, impersonal, subtle, and operates in very specific ways which need to be experienced at finer and finer levels. A fascinating aspect of walking meditation practice, for example, when the attention, concentration,and mindfulness become strong enough, is to experience the volitional impulses leading to forward movement and to turning movement - actually experiencing the arising of intention as an *impersonal* almost-physical impulse that particpates in producing the rupa of "air" (motion). ----------------------------------------------------------- Is it appropriate to regard being able to *exert a degree of influence* over > > > something as being *in control* of it? (Not a very satisfactory form of > control, I'd > suggest ;-)). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The trouble, Jon, as I see it, is that people go to extremes, and many who are enamored of the no-control aspect of anatta, much of the time subliminally, and even sometimes consciously (if the significance of their belief is blanked out), will carry that enchantment to the point of believing the impossibility or at least inefficacy of kamma (volitional action). ---------------------------------------------------------- > > And anyway, as I said above, for the statement to be meaningful we would > need to > say *over what* there is control. > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31582 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:31am Subject: On Control Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.html "But a well-instructed, disciple of the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for people of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- doesn't assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He doesn't assume feeling to be the self... "He doesn't assume perception to be the self... "He doesn't assume fabrications to be the self... "He doesn't assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. "He doesn't run around or circle around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. In one who doesn't assume fabrications to be the self, he discerns fabrications as fabrications. He discerns fabrications arises without a self. He discerns fabrications falls away without a self. Or, in one who doesn't assume volitions to be the self, he discerns volitions as volitions. He discerns volitions arises without a self. He discerns volitions falls away without a self. Or, in one who doesn't assume control to be the self, he discerns control as control. He discerns control arises without a self. He discerns control falls away without a self. In one who assumes fabrications to be the self, he does not discern fabrications as fabrications. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no fabrications'. Or, in one who assumes volitions to be the self, he does not discern volitions as volitions. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no volitions'. Or, in one who assumes control to be the self, he does not discern control as control. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no control'. The statement "there is control but there is no controller" is dependent on a non-assumption. Which? Not assuming control to be the self. The statement "there is no control because there is no self" is dependent on an assumption. Which? Assuming control to be the self. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he inverts the assumption. He wrongly discerns 'there is no control'. Like a dog tied to its leash, he circles around this very assumption. Regards, Swee Boon 31583 From: Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Control Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/21/04 8:33:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Group, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.html ======================== For the second time quite recently, you have shown yourself to be impressively adept at selecting suttas that are on-the-nose relevant! Thank you!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31584 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Control Hi Swee Boon As I say there is no control as a cetasikas, the part on control is not mention in the sutta. You have replace it. Cetana is not control as control is a concept. When we mean control, we mean there is a sense an entity that can will its power so even if we assume control as not self is already clinging to an entity that could will. We dont have deliberate actions over kusala or aksuala. If we have deliberate action, then it will mean Let us be thus, let us not be thus. We can consider dhammas, reflect on that. Only by this, then sati and panna will arise to wise consideration. Sadly this is the only way. This is a very difficult thing to believe and it is a thin red line, between control and understanding conditions. Ken O 31585 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Jon, I thought your comments on my comments were perfectly reasonable but they weren't on the same "train". I was going to New York and you were headed to Los Angeles. I have found that often my explanations just exaggerate misunderstanding so I decided to snip it. Larry 31586 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_3._Shedding_( §_3.3) Hi Nina, Thank you for this info! I appreciate it. I wonder if the pali original for the word 'shedding' in Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 Gotami Sutta To Gotami http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-053.html relates to 'pjahati'? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor: > op 20-03-2004 20:00 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > >> > >>> I also note that in Samiddhi Sutta, the Buddha said > >>> > >>> > >>> Having shed classifications, > N:Pali has: pahaasii sankha.m. > Pjahati: give up, abandon. Pahaasii: he has abandoned. > san"nkhaa: definition, enumeration. > He has abandoned (or renounced) notions. > My PTS glosses from the Co: The arahat has put away such notions as lusting, > being angry, confused. The Co explains that the fairy mentions the eightfold > Path. She has understood the Middle Path between self-indulgence and > self-torture. > Nina. > > >>> gone beyond conceit, > >>> he has here > >>> cut > >>> through craving > >>> for name > >>> & form: 31587 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:09am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.2.) § 4.2. Sumana: When I was seven & newly gone forth, having conquered with my power the great powerful serpent, I was fetching water for my preceptor from the great lake, Anotatta,[1] when the Teacher saw me & said: "Look, Sariputta, at that one, the young boy coming there, carrying a pot of water, well-centered within, his practices -- inspiring; his bearing -- admirable. He's Anuruddha's novice, mature in his powers, made thoroughbred by a thoroughbred, good by one who is good, tamed by Anuruddha, trained by one whose task is done. He, having reached the highest peace & realized the unshakable, Sumana the novice wants this: 'Don't let anyone know me.'" [Thag VI.10] Note: 1. Anotatta: A fabulous lake located in the Himalayas, famed for the purity of its cool waters. Sumana would have had to use his psychic powers to fetch water from there. [Go back] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31588 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:29am Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Philip, Regarding assuming self to be nama and rupa, I would suggest looking into the discourses Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 Samanupassana Sutta Assumptions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-047.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hello all, > [snip] Right understanding - > to the degree that I am capable of it - means understanding myself > and others as rupa and nama. That is so undeniably liberating - > except when neuroses have their day and cloud right understanding. [snip] > > Metta, > Phil 31589 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 4. Modesty (§ 4.2.) Hi all, In passage § 4.2. we can see the quality of modesty in Sumana, who is Ven. Anuruddha's novice. I noticed that the passage § 4.1. is from Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 4.2. > Sumana: > > When I was seven > & newly gone forth, > having conquered with my power > the great powerful serpent, > I was fetching water for my preceptor > from the great lake, Anotatta,[1] > when the Teacher saw me & said: > "Look, Sariputta, at that one, > the young boy coming there, > carrying a pot of water, > well-centered within, > his practices -- inspiring; > his bearing -- admirable. > He's Anuruddha's novice, > mature in his powers, > made thoroughbred by a thoroughbred, > good by one who is good, > tamed by Anuruddha, > trained by one whose task > is done. > > He, having reached the highest peace > & realized the unshakable, > Sumana the novice > wants this: > 'Don't let anyone know me.'" > > [Thag VI.10] > > > Note: > 1. Anotatta: A fabulous lake located in the Himalayas, famed for the > purity of its cool waters. Sumana would have had to use his psychic > powers to fetch water from there. [Go back] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty 31590 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:52am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.1.) § 5.1. "'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all, any old almsfood, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites for curing sickness at all. 'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. [AN VIII.30] Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31591 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.1.) Hi all, I think that being unhappy is often a result of being discontent, not being content with the material possession one has. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.1. > "'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is > discontent.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? > There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at > all, any old almsfood, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites > for curing sickness at all. 'This Dhamma is for one who is content, > not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. And with reference > to this was it said. > > [AN VIII.30] > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > To Anuruddha > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31592 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:18pm Subject: char. of rupas 4. There are two ways of explaining the four characteristics, see below. These fragments are taken from the Thai Dhamma Issues. 1. Explanation according to the method of the groups of rúpa. If we take into account that each moment of citta can be subdivided into three infinitesimal moments, each group, kalåpa, of rúpas lasts as long as fiftyone sub-moments of citta. If we compare the duration of rúpa with the duration of the fiftyone sub-moments of citta, the arising moment of rúpa, upacaya rúpa, is reckoned as equal to the first sub-moment of citta. The impermanence of rúpa, aniccatå rúpa, is reckoned as equal to the last sub-moment of citta, the fiftyfirst sub-moment of citta. Continuity, santati rúpa, and decay, jaratå rúpa, are reckoned to come in between these moments, thus, from the second sub-moment until the fiftieth sub-moment of citta. Each group of rúpas must have all four characteristics of rúpa. As is stated in the ³Dhammasangani²(643), ³What is subsistence of rúpa? That which is upacaya rúpa (integration or the arising moment of rúpa) is santati rúpa (subsistence or continuation of rúpa) This is subsistence of rúpa². When there is upacaya rúpa, the origination of rúpa, there must also be santati rúpa, the continuation after the origination, because that rúpa has not fallen away yet. When we take into consideration the characteristics of realities, rúpa is sankhata dhamma, conditioned dhamma, and therefore, it arises and falls away. In between the moment of the arising of rúpa and its falling away, there must be its continuation and decaying until the moment of its falling away. Upacaya, the origination of rúpa and santati, its continuation, are aspects of arising, whereas decay, jaratå, and impermanence, aniccatå, are aspects of its falling away. Each kalåpa, group of rúpas arises due to its own origination factor independently of the other groups of rúpa. Therefore, each group of rúpas must have its arising moment, upacaya. When we take into account the method of explanation according to the groups of rúpa, it cannot be said that the origination moment of rúpa, upacaya, occurs only at the moment of rebirth-consciousness, and that after the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away, the arising moment of the groups of rúpa is santati, continuation. 2. Explanation in a general way or in conventional sense, vohåra : The Atthasåliní, the Commentary to the Dhammasangani, in the section on rúpa, in the explanation of upacaya and santati (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 327) states: ³In the real sense both integration and continuity are synonyms of the production (arising) of rúpa.... ŒThat which is the accumulation of the åyatanas (sense organs) is the arising of rúpa¹. ŒThat which is the arising of rúpa is continuity of rúpa¹ ². This whole passage explains the meaning of the characteristics of upacaya, arising, and santati, continuity, in a wider sense, by way of conventional terms. In the same way the ³Atthasåliní² explains jaratå as decrepitude, such as having broken teeth, greyness of the hair, wrinkled skin. The Tíka of the ³Abhidhammattha Sangaha², Manual of Abhidhamma², the Abhidhammatthavibhåviní states about upacaya: ³Upacaya, accumulation is accumulating; the meaning is Œinitial accumulation¹, since the prefix upa indicates the meaning Œinitial¹ ... Santati, continuity, is continuing; the meaning is Œconnected series¹. Therein, in the period from relinking (patisandhi) until the arising of the decads (groups of ten rúpas) of the eye, etc. the arising of materiality is called accumulation; after that it is called continuity.² [1] In the ³Sacca Sankhepa², and in the ³Abhidhammatta Sangaha², Chapter 6, Classification of Rúpa, we find more examples of explanation of the lakkhana rúpas in a more general or conventional sense. Footnote: 1.After the first arising of the decads of eye, ear, etc. they grow and develop. This is an explanation in conventional terms. ******* Nina. 31593 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:18pm Subject: kalapas, groups. Hi Larry and Howard, Howard wrote: I certainly agree that when there is (just) seeing, there is nothing but visual content, and only afterwards mental operations add to the information. However, what I also think, and this may be what Larry is driving at, is that the visual content is not a homogeneous sameness or blank slate, but consists of a visual pattern that is the basis for the subsequent sa~n~nic and sankharic processing, and, thus, the details (re)cognized after the fact are not created out of whole cloth. N: Difficult subject. I agree that visual content is not a homogeneous sameness or blank slate. Visual pattern, I am not inclined to say pattern, because then there is thinking instead of just seeing without words. I would like to stress developing understanding of those different moments of seeing and thinking, visible object, of all namas and rupas that appear one at a time. Only this leads to penetrating the nature of anatta. Sa~n`naa does its work, but if we think too much about how we can know details, how it all works, it becomes very complicated and distracts from the goal: detachment. Only one dhamma at a time can be understood. Difficult enough for me. Larry wrote: < to Nina and Jon: Huh??? What??? Never mind. ps: Remember, everything you see is edible. Insight into anatta can be found in group dynamics.> N: Larry, I know the subject is very difficult, too difficult to explain in a few E mails. No wonder you think now and then huh?? And I know this does not feel so pleasant. We all need lots of patience and perseverance. Thus, we learn from the Visuddhimagga, reflect, consider again and again. How can we expect to understand dhammas immediately? I remember all those years of wondering and asking about visible object. It is not an image, it is not this colour then that colour, it is not a pattern, but what is it then? The only answer was all the time:*just* what appears through eyesense. Or I asked, how far does visible object extend, same answer. I find that usually we are so absorbed in the image and details of persons and things that we do not consider what seeing is, we just forget. We are more interested in the image. But by discussing knotty points and reflecting it just happens (without doing anything about it) that there can be attention to seeing, considering it. So, I just will add now a few more thoughts on seeing and hearing. I do not get tired of this subject. Visible object or colour arises in a group of rúpas, and the four Great Elements are always included in such a group. Visible object is seen, but the other rupas of that group are not experienced. This can be verified. Can you see hardness or heat? This would be impossible. You mention nutrition with visible object. This is one of the eight inseparables, right. But we speak of edible only when it is morselmade food, as we shall see in the Vis. after the four characteristics of rupa. Under nutrition. When it arises with visible object only visible object is experienced. Each citta experiences only one object. Seeing experiences what is visible, hearing experiences sound. I would like to go more into hearing. When we translate words from Thai into English, it seems an automatic process, but in reality there are many different cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes. If there were not hearing of just sound, how could we translate anything? It is the same in the case of reading, we actually translate what is seen into meaning. However, there are also moments of seeing of what appears through the eyesense. Seeing is different from paying attention to the shape and form of the letters. Also when we are not reading we see colours and at other moments we pay attention to shape and form, we perceive people and things. Seeing is not focussing on specific colours such as red or blue. When our eyes are open many different colours appear through eyesense and there is no need to enumerate or define all these colours, how could we do that. They just appear through the eyesense (we do not count them or define them) and after that we pay attention to the shape and form of things and we know that this is a person and that an animal or tree. Thus, there are many different moments of citta, but now we have a notion of I who sees persons and things, who hears people speaking. Understanding that there are many different dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time, is a condition for the arising of direct awareness and understanding. This is the sure way leading to the penetration of anatta. Keep courage and good cheer! Nina. 31594 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Paticcasamupada2 Dear Group, A further post on this topic from Robert Kirkpatrick. His explanation of the revolving of paticcasamupadda within a single conscious moment is clear and interesting. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: --- Dear Christine and all, From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind) We may think of death as aberrant and prefer not to think about it. However, the Buddha explained that because of birth then decay and death, sorrow, lamentation and pain all arise. And is this not the truth; we are born into this strange world, and live our short or long, pleasant or painful lives and then die. For every moment that arises intricate conditions are needed. In the sutta above we read "On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises". This aspect of the Paticcasamuppada is happening now while looking at the computer screen but we tend to take it for granted. Yet the eye-base (cakkhupasada) is a special type of matter conditioned by kamma of the past. If that kamma should cease or be obstructed then this type of matter cannot arise and thus there would be no seeing. Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result of good kamma. If the words are properly contemplated now we make new good kamma - and this is another link, sankhara, in the wheel of Paticcasamuppada. These links are evanescent and happening so fast: The Sammohavinodani (by Buddhaghosa- translated as The Dispeller of Delusion, Pali Text society)p244 "and now, because this structure of conditions exists not only in a plurality of consciousnesses but also in a single consciousness, he said avijjapaccaya sankharo (with ignorance as condition, a formation arises) and so on thus setting forth the shedule in order to teach, as to its various aspects, the structure of conditions of a single conscious moment"endquote. There are about 19 pages explaining how the whole paticcasamupada can be seen in such a short time. Knowing more about these fragile moments, I feel that it is a little miracle each time I wake up in the morning, or remember someone's name or experience colour or sound. It seems certain, and not so far away, that one day this life must cease. Sadness too seems very normal, another conditioned dhamma, that must arise because of attachment. Perhaps, as good Buddhists, knowing that sorrow and attachment are akusala (unwholesome), we become concerned to stop aversion, including sorrow. And it is true that if there is understanding at any link of the wheel - for example, if seeing is known as seeing then attachment and sorrow cannot arise. However, all of us have accumulated much attachment over such a long time that it must be expected that it occurs sometimes. Even Anathapindika , a leading lay disiple and sotapanna, had sorrow. Book 1, 13 of the Dhammapada-athakatha (trans. Burlingame PTS edition p.242.)In this the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana died. She was already a sakagami but she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually overwhemled with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. While Anathapindika was at her bed she called him "younger brother" and then died. Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha: "Although the treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion he was unable to bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the teacher. Said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'" Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was that his dughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger brother']. The Buddha explained that this was because she was already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna and that she had been reborn in a deva world. Both Sumana and Anathapindika had attained stages of enlightenment and had thus penetrated the Paticcasamuppada to the degree that they had completely eliminated the three types of upadana (clinging) based on wrongview. However, they hadn't yet eradicted the sensuous clinging and so attachment and sorrow kept arising. It is also interesting that a sotapanna did not know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and even believed that she temporarily deranged. So hard is it to know who is truly wise: If we judge people from their behaviour we can say 'he looks always calm' But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for calmness. Then again sometimes someone may be agitated and yet still be accumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality, some aspect of Paticcasamupada. robert In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > > > I liked your reminder that even though someone is not yet a > > Sotapanna, ignorance may be slowly being 'worn through' and > > attenuated. Sometimes one can feel discouraged and unsure, > sometimes > > one can feel no 'progress' is being made, > --- End forwarded message --- 31595 From: nidive Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:12pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, > Cetana is not control as control is a concept. > When we mean control, we mean there is a sense an entity > that can will its power ... How sure are you that this sense is a concept? Or is it a reality? Regards, Swee Boon 31596 From: Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Vism.XIV 68 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 68. 22. 'Ageing' has the characteristic of maturing (ripening) material instances. Its function is to lead on towards [their termination]. It is manifested as the loss of newness without the loss of individual essence, like oldness in paddy. Its proximate cause is matter that is maturing (ripening). This is said with reference to the kind of ageing that is evident through seeing alteration in teeth, etc., as their brokenness, and so on (cf. Dhs. 644). But that of immaterial states, which has no such [visible] alteration, is called hidden ageing. And that in earth, water, rocks, the moon, the sun, etc., is called incessant ageing. [450] 31597 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Victor and Philip (and all), I seem to have slunk back into `lurking' mode -- which is easy to do when there are so many excellent posts to read. However, I feel compelled to interject: Philip has reminded us; `everything we mistake for self is just nama and rupa.' Victor has corrected him (?!) by saying; `nama and rupa should be seen as not self.' I am worried that Philip will not realise what Victor means by this. Similar misunderstandings have happened many times before, resulting in weeks (sometimes months) of frustrating discussion from which no agreement has been reached. Victor, please make clear that you are asserting there IS a self – a self that is neither nama nor rupa. Then, discussion can proceed productively with all parties fully informed. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Regarding assuming self to be nama and rupa, I would suggest looking > into the discourses > 31598 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:07pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hello Ken, Victor and all. Thank you for your concern, Ken. I am taking everything with a grain of salt these days, staying open to all views, or trying to, to avoid my past error of being convinced that walking on only one side of the sidewalk is Right. I found this in the "Assumptions" sutta that Victor was kind enough to link me to. "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." I think I can say - with "I" used as always for convenience - that I have at least come to enough understanding to be able to put myself in with the "well-instructed disciple" above. A beginner's right understanding is well described here. I have not learned enough about or reflected enough in the light of abhidhamma to be able to join in the kind of discussion which will probably ensue from Victor's pst, but the basic right understanding referred to above is gradually rising, and I am very grateful to this group for that. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor and Philip (and all), > > I seem to have slunk back into `lurking' mode -- which is easy to do > when there are so many excellent posts to read. However, I feel > compelled to interject: > > Philip has reminded us; `everything we mistake for self is just nama > and rupa.' > > Victor has corrected him (?!) by saying; `nama and rupa should be > seen as not self.' > > I am worried that Philip will not realise what Victor means by > this. Similar misunderstandings have happened many times before, > resulting in weeks (sometimes months) of frustrating discussion from > which no agreement has been reached. > > Victor, please make clear that you are asserting there IS a self ?E a > self that is neither nama nor rupa. Then, discussion can proceed > productively with all parties fully informed. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Philip, > > > > Regarding assuming self to be nama and rupa, I would suggest > looking > > into the discourses > > 31599 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:21pm Subject: Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hello Christine, and all. I am deeply grateful for your long and throughtful response to my post, Christine, which was written in the midst of some great anxiety. I'm glad I wasn't able to retract it! I have printed out your response and it will be placed along with several others in a folder for reading and rereading - starting tonight in the bath. Thank you, my dhamma friend, and all my dhamma friends here. I feel so grateful not only to have found the Buddha's teaching, but so many friends here and in other groups who guide me and encourage me towards deeper understanding and liberation from some forms of unnecessary suffering. I will express that gratitude in some very excellent teaching today. (I define excellence as being fully present for the students rather than letting my mind wander to thoughts of dinner etc - now I know that being present for others arises later in the day as a result of thoughtful reflection on dhamma with friends like you.) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, > > After making great promises, my computer had a hissy-fit and deleted > a number of things, including the first draft of my post to you. So, > I start again - but you know how one can't quite recapture the > silken turn of phrase and the precise elucidation of a point or .... > :-) :-) > > There are presently 407 members on this list - most of them are > ordinary lay people struggling with just the issues you raise. Some > have loving partners with an equal interest in the Teachings, some > are unhappy in relationships, some have children they love but who > don't necessarily bring happiness, some don't have children and had > wanted to have them, some are healthy, some are quite ill, some are > young, some are elderly, some are wealthy, some comfortably off, and > some worried sick about how to pay bills. And some poor unfortunates > have to live alone with a self-centred Great Dane, whose only > interest in the Dhamma is listening to the BrahmaVihara chant on > Vipassana.com (after dinner please). > Generally, life in Samsara is dukkha. > Remember the traditional definition of Suffering - "Birth is dukkha, > aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & > despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; > separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is > dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." (snip) 31600 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control HI Swee Boon Control is a concept not a reality. Cetana is a reality and it is not control. Take for example, an apple falling due to gravity, that is a natural process (illustration of volition), if it will to fall slowly or not to fall at all, we have to invent an antigravity machine, to change its fall or not to fall (when we do it, the machine is the sense of self to control something). Similarly in a remote control car, we need a controller to change its direction. To me, only with an identity then there will be control. Similar there is no way we can control what we see, we cannot say we only want to see red and not orange, the volition (together with eye conscioness) to see is already arised and see the obejcts. The thought that we can close our eyes not to see, it not a control, is a condition resultant of an identity contioned by the three roots to do a willing. Similarly when we think we can hold our breath for a few seconds, we thought that is control, that is not, it is only an arisen of conditions, that a self that will, a self that can in a sense control ourselves. Ken O 31601 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One Who Dwells in the Dhamma, AN V.73 Hello Swee Boon what an excellent sutta. I will preserve it for often reflection. One Who Dwells in the Dhamma, AN V.73 "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Best regards, Jeff Brooks ---------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:35:17 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html Regards, Swee Boon 31602 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Hasituppada, so well said, and thank-you for clarifying, yes you are right of course we simply use "conventional terms" as a means of communication. As it is often said it is like pointing at the moon to a blind person. We can only do our best with the description so that person will simply sit down and have the experience. You have said so many excellent things I would be honored to meet you some day. I am sure we would be good friends. Might I just point out one small difference between my practice and the way you described the jhanas below. It is just me, and I am sure it is not with everyone else, and no doubt because I am an ignorant cowboy who practiced with almost no instruction. However, when I sit I do not determine a time period for the sit, nor do I determine which jhana I seek. I simply sit as though it is my last act in life, and I seek the deepest domain. I only know the 8 jhanas afterwards from texts when I reflect upon what occurred in a particular sit. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks ---------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 11:29:49 -0000 From: "hasituppada" Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, It is often said a meditator "goes into"* Samadhi, "arrives at"* one pointed concentration, "attains" *jhana "absorptions"*, "attains" *arahathood, "attains" Nibbana, "sit for"* insight meditation and so on and so forth. But you know well Jeff, there is no "goes into"*, "arrives at"* "attains"* "sits for"* "absorptions"*, they are all CONVENTIONAL TERMS used to describe a mental experience, which only the one who experiences knows, and in explaining using "conventional terms" the experience is invariably distorted. That is why it is best not to discuss these experiences with those who have not experienced them, because they are beyond their understanding and will ridicule you through their ignorance of the experience. <......> 31603 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1954 Hello Swee Boon, and thank-you ever so much for posting an excellent rebuttal to my thesis that jhana is possibly the single portal to nibbana. It seems that sn12-070 is an excellent refutation. It may also be proof that almost any position can be taken from such a large document as the Pali canon. I do not however take the stand that the Pali canon is perfect and without flaws. I believe each of us must evaluate the truth of any sutta based upon our personal experience. This suttas seems to emphasize right view as a means of liberation. I am sure it comforts some people, however I do not believe right view is enough to satisfy the insatiable cravings of the human spirit, whereas absorption (jhana) has left me utterly and completely satisfied. The question really is, what satisfies you? Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks sn12-070 Ven. Susima heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Ven. Susima went to those monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them, "Is it true, as they say, that you have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world"'?" "Yes, friend." "Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?" "No, friend..." "Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?" "No, friend." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html --------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 05:49:14 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Jeff, > They are supramundane because they are needed > for the ending of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha). It is not so, Jeff. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html Regards, Swee Boon 31604 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Dear Philip, there are many levels of right understanding: of the level of listening, considering, thinking about nama and rupa, and these levels are the foundation for the growth of direct understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time. All levels are included in mental development, bhavana. When we read in the sutta, we know from the context that this thinking is more than intellectual understanding, that it is satipatthana. The translation may not be so clear. Nina. op 21-03-2004 14:06 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Can a beginner like myself, who has often enough revealed his > gross lack of understanding, also have right understanding at > times just by thinking about rupa and nama? 31605 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Dear Penniless in Samsara;-), I’d also like to join the bandwagon, ignore your retraction and add comments on the important issues you raise in this post. I’m glad to see that Chris and Nina have already given lots of good advice and sutta references. --- Philip wrote: > > > Dear Abbydhamma, > > I've been to the UPs but haven't found anything on this subject, > so I will turn to you. There are hardly any advice-columnesque posts > here, so I hope you will allow a brief diversion from discussion of > dhammas. .... S: This could be the start of something new and fun....;-) I think the points you raise are all hard-core dhamma along the lines of straightening our views. ..... > > It's suitable that I post here, actually, because the fear has > arisen since I encountered this group, and more especually the > abhidhamma. It makes sense - I've seen my wrong way of understanding > reality stripped down and am standing naked on a very cold day. > A friend here referred to having one's wrong understanding exposed > as "refreshing" and I can see that, in a sense, because there is > knowledge that with the passing of wrong understanding right > understanding can arise. .... S: Just as having a cold shower or bath doesn’t always seem refreshing in the first instance, nor does having one’s ‘wrong way of understanding reality stripped down’ seem so. It takes courage. .... > My problem is that - as I posted before- the circumstances of my > life demand that I try to make money, and my new small degree of > right understanding shows me that intending to make money through > concepts/writing is a recipe for great deepening of defilements > rather than progress on uprooting them. .... S: To put it bluntly, I think this would be an example of a ‘wrong way of understanding reality’. Again it is an idea of a certain ‘situation’ or siilabbataparaamaasa (adherence to rites and rituals)in that there is the idea that certain occasions/activities or dhammas are more appropriate or more right for developing understanding. This is why I think your post is such a good one and contains hard-core dhamma which is relevant for us all in daily life. .... > I think the problem comes down to the fact that my best friend/life > partner/wife Naomi has no interest in Buddhism and considers my > interest a form of dilly-dallying and avoiding the hard work that > needs to be done. .... S: She may have a good point. If we use our interest in Buddhism as an excuse to avoid our responsibilities, it’s not going to be surprising if those around us notice;-) ..... >I want to get deeper and deeper into understanding > dhammas. She wants me to get deeper and deeper into the market place. > And I know she's right that if I don't, we will be penniless in > our old age. We joke about surving on a can of tuna a day. If I were > by myself, that would be all right. I would have a greater wealth in > dhmma than a comfortable retirement fund. ..... S: There doesn’t need to be any conflict at all unless it is lobha driving our dhamma study again. On the contrary, I think the real understanding of dhammas helps us in the market place not to have any idea of lost time or better use elsewhere and so on. I also think the idea of being able to happily survive on tuna (too much mercury, btw to eat every day;-))because one has a ‘greater wealth in dhamma’ is a misplaced fantasy, though I know you’re not completely serious. ..... >But she will be by my side > when we are old, and if she hasn't found the Buddha's teaching by > then, there will be hell to pay. .... S: Even if she has found the Buddha’s teaching, one still needs to be able to pay one’s medical bills, travel to see relatives and survive with reasonable comfort. But even then, there are no guarantees or real security of any kind in life as Chris pointed out. It can all be lost anytime, in spite of our best efforts. .... > So one thing to do is to help her understand the Buddha's teaching. <...> >Those of you whose life partners (I > think of Sarah and Jon and Nina and Ludjewik(sp?) ) share an interest > in the Buddha's teaching should not take that for granted. .... S: Phil, it may be some comfort for you to know that neither of us have been ‘liberated from material concerns to even a small degree’. We’re real beginners on the path and have faced (and face) just the same dilemmas and difficulties you are now facing. When we married, Jon was nearly 40 and together we had less than one thousand dollars saved without any investment of any kind and various commitments to his father and so on. We’ve both worked incredibly hard for the last 25 years. Jon has been in his office every day, 6 days a week, including during a long period (2 years or so) of treatment for a tumour and so on. After a few years of college teaching in Austalia and here in Hong Kong, I started up my own teaching and assessment business and emplyoyed 30 teachers at one time, again sometimes working through ill-health, running intensive courses through all my summer holidays, studying for an MBA on the side and so on. At one time I was working 70 hour weeks (not recommended;-)) and the only dhamma reading I’d do would be when I got into bed. I’d pull out a text or a letter from the continuous supply Nina had always sent me since I first knew her in 1975. At times, however, I'd invariably fall asleep before I finished a page at most. On average twice a year we’d spend time with K.Sujin in Bangkok or she’d come and stay with us in Hong Kong and have discussions with our friends. One time she visited and I was exhausted and stressed out and mentioned this. I hoped she’d just advise me to give up work and rest more. Never! She’d just continue to remind me about the present realities to be known such as seeing, visible object, aversion, attachment and so on. We can understand conditioned realities and accumulations at any moment without setting any rules at all. In fact, since we’ve been married, neither of us has ever mentioned or hinted that our work has been an impediment or distraction as far as satipatthana is concerned. Consideration and sati can arise anytime at all, even while dropping off to sleep. During the last couple of years I’ve been unwinding my business at a rapid rate, partly due to commitments we’ve taken on with DSG and have more time again to read more. It could change again anytime, however. Jon continues as busily as ever, but never complains about it, not even at the end of a trip when he usually goes straight from the airport into his office for lengthy and often very dreary meetings. What I’m saying is, please don’t attribute Naomi’s worldly concerns to being a result of her lack of interest in the Buddha’s teachings. As I said before, understanding of the teachings makes life easier not harder. .... <...> > So sharing the Buddha's teaching with her is not easy. .... S: Best not to have expectations and to see the attachment to results of sharing as being the problem. Like Nina said, no need to call it Buddhism. Some of the students I’ve formed the greatest bonds with over the years have been my Japanese students - children and adults. I think one can discuss qualities like the perfections, because there is often an appreciation of kindness, courtesy, respect and so on. Again, it has to be at the right time and one has to consider whether one is talking about the teachings really for the other’s welfare or just because one would like those one holds dear to share the same understanding and see the value in them as we do. Sometimes it’s kinder to listen as I found when I was with my mother last summer. .... > Sharing from > the heart is best of course, telling her what I've learned, how > important it is, but you see that is another catch 22 because since > she thinks my interest in Buddhism is dilly-dallying, talking about > it is also dilly-dallying. .... S: So maybe it will be your example of not dilly-dallying which will help her most;-) .... > We don't have kids, BTW. That may make us very close and dependent > on each other, to a degree that many couples with kids don't have > because of orientating more towards the kids' well being. But that's > a different topic. .... S: Understood. Same for us. Just one more comment on partnerships. We’ve also known friends who’ve married with the same confidence and interest in the Buddha’s teachings and still run into big problems whilst other friends with no such interest and far greater material difficulties to have come through with flying colours. So many factors involved. I think the reminder to ‘be the understanding person’ helps a lot, not that I’m any expert in this field and am often very impatient;-). Conditions are so very complicated and change all the time. We have no idea either what kamma has in store for us. .... > Anyways, I needed to post this. If I am less involved here in the > months to come, it will not be because of a typical fickleness of > passing interest, but because I somehow have to get my nose down to > the grindstone. (If any of you are fithy rich and would like to adopt > a youngish, middle-aged couple, we are available. Fairly house > trained, and we can both cook quite well.) .... S: ;-) .... > I am feeling confused and fearful about how to balance a sincere > interest in the Buddha's teaching with a need to think about the > market place. ... S: Confusion, fear are shades of dosa and can be understood anytime they arise. Whether you think or don’t think about the market place, it’ll be by conditions and the realities of daily life will be just as real either way. Yes, it comes back to the present moment and the understanding of the cittas, cetasikas and rupas appearing now, rather than any idea of a better way or set of activities. Look forward to any more of your sharings. With metta, Abbydhamma ============ 31606 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, I was down with a 24hour food posioning attack yesterday (Jon has a milder version still), so I’m behind on my reading of posts and haven’t yet followed your side-thread with him or others. I’m replying now to parts of your two posts to me. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I just reread this reply of mine and I am unhappy with it. I am > sorry > I didn't use a much softer tone. My post obviously expresses annoyance, > which > is my problem, not yours. .... S: I appreciate your kind words here, Howard, but I’d also like to ‘back off’. When I wrote to you before, it was at the end of an afternoon of writing, including typing out a long passage from Dispeller, that as usual had taken far longer than anticipated. I had wanted to respond to you, but your post was at the bottom of the pile and I was left with a rushed five minutes before dashing out for Tai-chi. It’s not surprising at all that your reacted as you did, especially when it comes to the topic of experiences. So, I apologise too;-) .... > I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a > "reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually > experienced what I > did directly experience. That was how I reacted, which probably was well > > off-base and surely was a thrashing about of ego! .... S: Oh well, I’m sure there’s plenty of that common problem all round here;-. Back to your earlier post. Perhaps we are using the word ‘object’ in different ways, so I’d like to clarify and to say we can refer to that which is seen or heard, for example, by using any term. It’s not important. .... H: > As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the > following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there > is, in > reality, no knowing subject. ... S: No self. We both agree. ... >Now I'm not clear on what you consider > 'object' or > 'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to > be > mutually dependent. .... S: No, in the way I use ‘object’ or arammana as used in the texts, it represents the phenomena which are experienced through the 6 door-ways regardless of any wisdom or lack of. So there is seeing or hearing now and that which is seen, visible data or other sense door objects, but no subject or self. .... >If you do, then with no subject there is no object. > If, on the > other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than > "phenomenon" > or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, > continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and > there is content > to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as > "experience" > to be an inadequate and misleading definition. .... S: I would too. I would define the seeing or hearing as experienced and the visible or heard as the arammana of those experiences. Whether this is called ‘dual’ or ‘non-dual’ or anything else doesn’t really bother me. An ‘enlightened’ experience as I understand it, is not the loss of objects but the full understanding of the objects experienced as anicca, dukkha and anatta. This is why the path begins with the clear comprehending of nama and rupa, not the clear comprehending of experiencing and eradication of objects of experience. We read again and again in the suttas about the understanding and detachment towards the objects experienced through the senses and the understanding of the dangers of attachment and proliferation with regards to these objects. With regard to the Kalaka sutta which Swee Boon raised; >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html I think as Ken O indicated, it is clearly showing that in the case of the Buddha, there is no proliferation or unwholesome dwelling (ma~n~nati) on account of what is seen, heard and so on. No idea of self at all. In the Udana comy (PTS), Mucalinda chapter [132], the same lines from the Kalaka sutta are quoted as indicating the depth of knowledge of the Tathagata who knew all sense objects "either by way of its being desirable or undesirable and so on, or by way of whichever term is applicable in the case of things seen, heard, sensed and cognised, under countless names, in thirteen cycles in fifty-two methods,.......For this was said by the Lord: ‘That which,monks, is, for this world with its devas..with its (generation of (devas and men, a thing seen, heard.....that do I know....that have I come directly to know, for the Tathagata is that fathomed, to that the Tathagata does not attend.’(A ii25). Thus he is Tathagata, in that it was of that which is accordant (tatha) that he was a seer (dassitaaya). And in this connection, the origin of the word ‘Tathaagata’ is to be understood (to lie) in the sense of ‘accordant seeing’ (tathadassii).” ... <...> It is still the case that I haven't the slightest doubt that my > experience consisted of the absence of a dualistic, knowing-known event, > and that > while there was multisensory experiential content, there yet was no > knowing that > was separate from the content, and the content at no time was an object > of > such a subjective knowing. The experience was no more subjective than > objective, > and no more objective than subjective. .... S: Again, there may be some confusion with terms. At this moment, if there is awareness of say feeling or hardness, just that reality ‘appears’ momentarily as it is. There is no thought about this being an object or any other label. Still, we can say that awareness has to be aware of a nama or a rupa and in this sense even when we talking about the development of satipatthana, there is always an object present and a citta experiencing the object. The reason I asked for a reference to discuss further was because I felt we were reaching an impasse of comparing different, seemingly contradictory experiences. .... >And it is misleading to say it > was > both, and it is misleading to say it was neither. This is the way it > was, and the > Kalakarama Sutta really does describe it well. But I recognize that my > claimed lack of doubt in the matter should in no way be satisfactory for > you. .... S: Well, I’ll be interested in your further comments on the sutta above.As I say, I think there may be some misunderstanding still in terminology. For example, when we read in suttas like SN 35:26 (4) Understanding, about ‘understanding the all’ as including the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye-contact,feelings and so on by developing dispassion which leads to abandoning. Would you suggests that when these actualities are understood that they are not the objects of cittas with understanding? ... > I apologize for my ego-bound annoyance, and, more importantly, I > apologize for letting it be expressed with a flavor of sharpness in my > post to you. > I am particularly displeased with the sarcastic second sentence of mine > that > I quote above. Sarcasm is far from right speech. Clearly, my experience, > which > produced some very important and very useful fallout in my life, still > very > much left my ego sense well intact! ;-) .... S: When I read your comment, I just thought “Oh, I’ve stepped on an egg-shell....need to be more considerate, even when posting in haste”, so it was a useful reflection for me. As Nina sort of said, we’re all like babies or baby pups here really. It’s a live list and our various foibles are bound to surface when we write as regularly as some of us do. I’ve left aside a couple of comments on Vinnana in D.O. as there will be plenty of opportuntities when we get to it in the D.O. corner. Finally, given that all past wondrous experiences or insights have long since gone, do you think there is any value in reflecting further on them rather than understanding present dhammas? Metta, Sarah ====== 31607 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > > However, yes I would maintain that any striving with `self' with > > respect to development of "satipatthana" is akusala, namely `wrong > > view'. And this is considered the worst of the akusala kammapatthas. > > So, Sukin, is it possible to strive without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'control' without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'select' without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'attempt' without self-identity view? > Is it possible to 'try' without self-identity view? All these terms, `strive', `control', `select', `attempt' and `try', do they correspond to paramattha dhammas, or are they used conventionally? If they are dhammas, I would like you to identify them, if they are used conventionally, then I would like to know what context they are used in. Self-identity view does not arise with dosa and moha mula cittas and only four of the eight lobha mula cittas. So for example, you can `try' to reach for the sugar across the table without `self-view and you can `control' your car to avoid hitting another car also without any self-view. But I think, you should stick to the topic of developing sati and panna, and not ask in such a general way. It seems almost as if you have chosen to create a premise and used it through logic, to try to fit some conclusion of yours. If ever there is going to be any direct understanding of anatta for any of us, it will be only by considering the present moment. Is this moment conditioned and not-self? At first this inquiry will have to be at the "thinking" level. This is obvious, because we have only *just* heard about anatta and such, from reading and/or hearing the Buddha's teachings. So at this stage whenever we are confronted with any experience and are reminded about these things, we can only reflect `intellectually'. And if we have a preconceived idea about theory and practice and find a need to justify these, then we will read into the Texts whatever lobha will lead us to. However we can still check it out, by trying to see if any of our interpretations are consistent with the general thrust of the Teachings and not just based on personal inclinations. If we are indeed so much attached to our practice and not careful, we may go to the extreme to not only read into the Teachings what we like, but even go so far as to use `logic' to drive any statement to fit our preconceived ideas. If you don't mind, I would like to refer to your discussion with Ken O. You said in one of your posts; > I said that there is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. > > But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. > And that this control is one of the primary functions of cetana. > > I do not make a distinction between control and cetana. Which you later changed this part; > But there is control over the arising of kusala or akusala dhammas. To; ""What I meant is that there can be deliberate consideration whether to take a skilfull or unskillful action."" Are you not contradicting yourself in all this? If indeed you realize that there is "no control over 3 characteristics of dhammas", then what is the characteristic of "deliberate consideration"? Does not this also have the same three characteristics? And is it not that *all* dhammas be they kusala, akusala or any other, also anatta, anicca and dukkha? What do you understand by these three characteristics? Do you consider conditionality at all? Do you consider if this moment is conditioned, the `volition' et al? I think in the end, you are arguing for `volition' as implying that `choice can be made'. In this you believe that any progress with regard to practicing the Buddha's Path, revolves around making the correct choice in the present moment. And in the overall picture of what the practice means, you believe in formal "meditation". I am sure also, that you have experienced what you think are positive outcomes of such an outlook. I will not question you whether these apparent signs of progress are indeed real or not. But I can only say that such signs (forgive me if I am a bit presumptive here, just want to make a point ;-)), are what people of other religions also always looking for and do *find* in themselves. They don't need to hear the Buddha's teachings at all! It is so very easy to deceive oneself. Another thing, one of the thoughts I used to have when I first started to appreciate the importance of pariyatti, is that those people who meditate and have grown to appreciate to deeper levels, the Teachings, do so because they *also* `study'. That is, they progress not because of meditation, but in spite of it. But I think there is one good way to at least estimate if one really correctly understands the Buddha's teachings, and it is to see if in the present moment, there is any detachment. Not in relation to ideas about what one is and supposed to be, but to whatever dhamma that arises. And there are fewer tendencies to control and change things, at least within the context of what is and what should be with regard to development. I started out with only a few things to say, but ended up with another long post. Sorry, ;-). Metta, Sukin. 31608 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, I’d like to say a little more on this point too because I think these are such good questions: --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In > your > system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential > knowledge? Am I > incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the > teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential > knowledge? And, > trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves > trying > and shouldn't be attempted? .... S: I’d like to just give a personal example on the day I read these questions. I had typed out a passage from a commentary text about ignorance and attachment as being ‘the heads’ in the rounds of rebirth and as a result was reflecting further on just how much ignorance there is most of the day and how it leads to unhappy rebirths. I was also reflecting on the nature of attachment, especially with regard to say, not breaking the precepts or performing good deeds. I didn’t ask or try to have these reflections. I’d written out a passage which I had thought might be useful and the reflections just followed, whilst I was teaching or brushing my teeth, being aware in between of attachment or ignorance or other realities too. No self of course is involved to do anything at all. The same day, Nina mentioned in a reply to me about a discussion we’d had in Bangkok about attachment to our good deeds and how these can all be done for oneself, to accumulate more kusala. It doesn’t mean there isn’t any real kindness or generosity involved, but the clinging to self can follow so closely. And then conceit, more discussion on conceit and again, without any wish or intention, whilst teaching my students that day, I was aware of how often the conceit arises whilst helping them. The mind-states change all the time. As I mentioned to another friend, whilst getting annoyed or raising one’s voice, there can be understanding and awareness even as one continues to be annoyed and in the same way, when one speaks kindly or helpfully, conceit or attachment can slip in anytime with the opposite characteristics of metta. So these qualities and dhammas we are learning more about are not for the sake of collecting book study theoretical knowledge. They are for the development of direct understanding in daily life without any idea of a self having to do anything. The other day I checked the commentary to a verse that had been given about a slave-girl who became an arahant. Under several previous Buddhas, she’d learned and studied the Tipitaka and taught it, but her pride was an obstacle to even becoming a sotapanna. I was curious and also trying to be helpful by checking the text, but found it such an inspiration and good reminder that the study has to be in daily life when these realities arise, not in the book. Christine also asked about when we modestly consider others as being our superiors, why this would be a kind of conceit and it helped remind me over the weekend of various other conceits arising, especially when I read the suttas and references Victor, Ken O and others gave. Whenever we draw attention to ourselves, raise the banner, (even if nothing is said), find ourselves important, there is bound to be conceit, so different from mudita (sympathetic joy) when we just delight in others’ wisdom, good fortune or happiness. Yesterday, Jon and I were set to go off to the beach and had our bags packed when I started feeling unwell and running to the bathroom, vomitting and so on. Anything can happen, but even whilst in pain and vomitting or later tossing and turning in bed with a fever, unable to read or even listen to a tape or the radio, there were opportunites for wise reflection about paticca samuppada, for brief moments of awareness and understanding about ignorance, attachment, bodily painful experience, seeing, hearing, impatience, frustration and so on. None of these experiences were intended, wished, anticipated or ‘controlled’ in anyway. Perhaps I see it more like a snow-ball effect, given the right conditions like in the sutta about the chicks hatching (SN22:101 the Adze handle) regardless of any wishing on the part of the hen. And then, so very gradually, just as we read in the same sutta, the lines that can never be stressed enough: "When, bhikkhus, a carpenter or a carpenter's apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: 'So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.' But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away." I hope it gives the kind of answer you may be looking for, Jack. Metta, Sarah ====== 31609 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:15am Subject: Fwd: Re: Paticcasamupada2 Dear Group, An additional post from RobK on Paticcasamupadda that may be of interest. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Christine, As usual your questions are genuine and get to the heart. The Buddha's teaching is about uncovering the nature of reality. What obscures reality is avijja, an immensely powerful force that won't disappear easily. It supports self view so that almost every action we do, almost every thought we think, revolve around ME. No surprise as wrong view is a conditioned dhamma, it has been like this since time began. The problem is that instead of learning to see into wrongview, instead of seeing into tanha, we are lead by them. Tanha and wrongview become our teacher and so, thinking we are escaping them, we actually strengthen them. And this is silabbataparamsa: we go down to the river to become baptized, or we follow the latest guru who has some method , or we fast, or sit without moving. We might have strange experiences in meditation and cling to those, hoping they show progress. Or we become very rigid in our sila. Our face might even have a glow because we are trying to stay so pure.These are gross examples, it can be more subtle. The PTS dictionary defines "silabbata-paramasa" as "the contagion of mere rule and ritual, the infatuation of good works, the delusion that they will suffice." The dictionary refers to Majjima Nikaya 64, were we read: "An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]." Very common, just as self view is so common. If there is not enough honesty to look into our motives and clingings then the subtle types of silabbata will never be known, they will be clung to. Maybe all this life, and the next. When you write about how sometimes you understand and then sometimes that understanding goes away: isn't that how it should be? These things are conditioned, instead of being concerned by it see how natural it is, it is showing reality to you. I add some more comments below: In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > And when you speak of discouragement and uncertainty as 'fit > objects for insight' - what exactly is insight? Is it just > the 'wordless knowing' that one is experiencing discouragement and > uncertainty, and being aware of its arising, standing and passing > away? > Again, does this just happen by itself, this insighting? =========== I think no one can tell us exactly how to have insight. But what happens is that- conditioned by right understanding - there are more opportunities for awareness to arise. It is a wordless knowing, but words can be there at that same time:). Yet not all wordless knowing is insight. When it is real, then whatever is the object, pleasant or unpleasant is neither clung to nor rejected. It is seen as only an element. ============= > > I'm especially grateful for your clear writing on the > Paticcasamupadda as it revolves in each moment. Your post takes it > out of the esoteric into the understandable by ordinary people. > > Kamma is so complicated - I have studied and intellectually > understood it, and when I read your posts I completely agree. But I > tend to think of only the big things in life as vipaka - a car > accident, receiving flowers, finding a lost necklace - so I forget > that kamma and vipaka operate on a micro level all the time. And I > tend to mix up how I feel with vipaka - if someone says something > discourteous and I feel shocked and upset - I tend to think of how I > feel as being the vipaka, when if I think about it logically, how I > feel is just more active kamma, and only the instant of first > hearing of the words was vipaka. > =================- You have good understanding of this. It think it will continue to become clearer the more there is understanding of the difference between concept and reality. The 4 jatis. ========= > Interesting that Anathapindika, a sotapanna, didn't know Sumana was > a sakadagami - would he have known he was a sotapanna, would she have > known she was a sakadagami? Clearly the question of someone who is > nothing. :-) ============= Think about it, to become a sotapann so much wisdom is needed. One will certainly not be deluded about their attainment if it is genuine. But the deluded one may think or hope that they have attained. RobertK > > Regarding silabbataparamasa - this is following rules and rituals > because of a belief that by doing so it will lead to enlightenment. > I can think of a number of things regularly viewed in that way by > many buddhists for just that purpose, including some types of sila > and mental development. I understand as you say about how easy it is > to go wrong, looking to control oneself and what one experiences. > What I don't understand is how it is possible to 'practice' the > factors for stream-entry without some form of control. I am > frustrated by this recurring inability to hold the understanding of > this truth. I know belief in control signifies a belief in a self > who can control - and sometimes knowing this is perfectly clear, but > all too soon understanding seems to slip away again. I know that > everything is conditioned, and so even our seeminly 'free' choices > are conditioned. > The Blessed One said, "Sariputta! Association with superior persons, > Sariputta, is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry. > Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in > accordance with the Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry." > For me to associate with superior persons (I take this to mean > Kalyanamitta), I understand that the 'wanting' is conditioned, but to > actually get to where kalyanamitta are involves choosing ahead of > time to take a long journey. Hearing the true Dhamma also involves > choice and control, careful attention does too, and whatever is meant > by 'practice in acordance with the Dhamma' would clearly involve > planned action, wouldn't it? If we are instructed to practise > bhavana, or develop satipatthana in the scriptures - doesn't that > imply the ability to 'do' and 'control'. > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > --- End forwarded message --- 31610 From: hasituppada Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:20am Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, Thankyou. We have already met Jeff, and we are spiritual friends (kalyana mitta). We are afterall nama-rupa. Rupa is the temporary abode of the nama The rupa dies and perishes and the mind continues its voyage through samasara, and nama (mind) has no barriers. Therefore, Jeff our minds have met. Even some ignorant cowboys may have potential great minds. About your practice, I notice you have tremendous confidence in Buddha Dhamma and Sangha. It is natural there are intermittent moments of doubt. Perseverance in the correct path is essential for correct effort to reach the object. A self-retreat is sometime helpful for intense mindful awareness. If you get into Samadhi very quickly it is not necessary to predetermine the time for each stage of Jhana. Be quite aware of your jhana moments, there is always a "shift" of the body and the mind becomes very calm,silent and alert. And when that lertness disappears at each stage, you will know you are passing on to the next stage. It is good to train yourself to "go to" each level of Jhana and "come out of it". When you are well trained you may be able to go to each level, and stay in it for a few minutes, before going to the next (etc). But what is important is meditation on the four foundations (or one of the four)after the last (forth) jhana moment. That would be vipassana, and in vipassana too you will have more subtle Vipassana Jhanas. To go to the "arupa" jhana, after the fourth "rupa" jhana, one need not meditate. By determination after the fourth jhana one may go to the arupa jahanas, stage by stage. That is what my teachers said. Please continue what you are doing without changing, I am sure you will meet with success. May you be very happy, Jeff. With metta, Hasituppada. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: > Hello Hasituppada, so well said, and thank-you for > clarifying, yes you are right of course we simply use > "conventional terms" as a means of communication. As > it is often said it is like pointing at the moon to a > blind person. We can only do our best with the > description so that person will simply sit down and > have the experience. > > You have said so many excellent things I would be > honored to meet you some day. I am sure we would be > good friends. <.....> 31611 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 3/22/04 12:05:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > To me, only with an > identity then there will be control. > ========================= I have an opinion about this: It seems to me that among the various sorts of experience that one has, there are varying degrees of how "personal" they seem to us. In varying manners and degrees, for different ones of us, some kinds of experience are more difficult for us to feel their impersonality. In this regard, I imagine that many of us find sense of touch more "personal" (and likely to be thought of as "mine" and identified with a "me") than sight or smell, for example. It is easier for some to think of seeing and smelling occuring without there being a seer or smeller, than for there to be touching without one who touches. I would bet that many of us find mental phenomena such as thoughts, feelings, and emotions even more "me" than touch. Among the phenomena most easily associated with "me and mine," I suspect, are intending, inclining to, and willing. But *all* of these are just impersonal, empty phenomena rolling on. No identity or self is required for volitional influence, but that sort of phenomenon easily lends itself to the sense of a personal identity/self. We almost automatically think that there can be no influencing, controlling, and coordinating without there being an influencer, controller, and coordinator - in short, without there being an agent "in charge." But this is just avijja cavorting where it finds a play area in our psyche. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31612 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Hello Hasituppada, and thank-you for your kindness and your kind reply and your gracious friendship. Yes I agree with you the perceived barriers are but nama-rupa, which seems to both delight and confuse others, and perhaps make me only laugh from time to time. Yes, I do have a great confidence in the Buddha and his dhamma, because it has given me a great consolation, and I am also confident that a community (sangha) of loving spiritual friends (kalyana mitta) can emerge from that prefect and excellent path to freedom (dhamma). Yes, I agree with you regarding self-retreat. It is an invaluable asset on this path to freedom. One could say that I am always in self retreat living as I do without a sangha but always seeking community among those who I meet. I also frequently retreat into secret canyons in this desert where there is such a stillness that one can hear one's own heart beating and blood pumping in the brain. Yes, you are right I get into "Samadhi very quickly," as soon as I sit and close my eyes. So, I have found it is not necessary to set a "predetermined time" for each "stage of Jhana," and since jhana has been a regular feature of my samadhi for 30 years, I find no need to even have concern over the "stage of Jhana." I simply sit mindful of the four cornerstones with depth leading to cessation as my only object. I endeavor to be mindful in every moment, but perhaps it is due to having become saturated and suffused with jhana, that I do not experience a disappearing of alertness at each stage of jhana. The stages are simply noted passages and shifts in the four cornerstones (breath, body, senses and mind). I use the term 'cornerstones' instead of 'foundations' for Maha-satipatthana, because simple peasant wisdom here knows a house may only have one foundation, but it can have four cornerstones. While I have found insight (vipassana) is a natural aspect of my moment to moment life, either in meditation (samadhi) or as I move throughout the day. However, I do not find there has ever been a jhana without insight, nor has there been insight without tranquillity, stillness and calm (jhana). This is why I say for me there is no jhana without vipassana, and no vipassana without jhana. When arupa jhanas emerge they emerge on their own with no determination on my part, because when they emerge I am at such a place of cessation of volition that to determine a thing is not at all present within me. So, when an arupa jhana emerges it simply springs forth like a flower blossoms from its stock. The plant does not say, "Come forth ye flower." The flower just blooms here and there on a plant. Sometimes that bloom is this arupa jhana, and sometimes is another. If I find myself only in an Infinite Space domain, I am not disappointed that I only found infinite space. If I find myself in Infinite Time, I am not disappointed, nor am I disappointed to find myself merged with Indra's Net of Infinite Being, nor in that place of cessation of all sense contact. In each place I find a "pleasant abiding in the here and now" of unbroken awareness that is saturated and suffused with a pleasure that is not "born of sense contact." Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks -------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:20:41 -0000 From: "hasituppada" Subject: Re: 'dry' verse 'wet' insight Dear Jeff, Thankyou. We have already met Jeff, and we are spiritual friends (kalyana mitta). We are afterall nama-rupa. Rupa is the temporary abode of the nama The rupa dies and perishes and the mind continues its voyage through samasara, and nama (mind) has no barriers. Therefore, Jeff our minds have met. <....> 31613 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - I'll just insert a few comments below in context. In a message dated 3/22/04 3:28:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I was down with a 24hour food posioning attack yesterday (Jon has a milder > version still), so I’m behind on my reading of posts and haven’t yet > followed your side-thread with him or others. I’m replying now to parts of > your two posts to me. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sorry about how you two have been. Not fun, I know! ------------------------------------------------ > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > I just reread this reply of mine and I am unhappy with it. I am > >sorry > >I didn't use a much softer tone. My post obviously expresses annoyance, > >which > >is my problem, not yours. > .... > S: I appreciate your kind words here, Howard, but I’d also like to ‘back > off’. When I wrote to you before, it was at the end of an afternoon of > writing, including typing out a long passage from Dispeller, that as usual > had taken far longer than anticipated. I had wanted to respond to you, but > your post was at the bottom of the pile and I was left with a rushed five > minutes before dashing out for Tai-chi. It’s not surprising at all that > your reacted as you did, especially when it comes to the topic of > experiences. So, I apologise too;-) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! It's always a pleasure interacting with you, Sarah. :-) --------------------------------------------------- > .... > > I found it silly and a bit of a put-down when you requested a > >"reference" that might make it believable to you that I actually > >experienced what I > >did directly experience. That was how I reacted, which probably was well > > > >off-base and surely was a thrashing about of ego! > .... > S: Oh well, I’m sure there’s plenty of that common problem all round > here;-. Back to your earlier post. Perhaps we are using the word ‘object’ > in different ways, so I’d like to clarify and to say we can refer to that > which is seen or heard, for example, by using any term. It’s not > important. > .... > H: > As far as your requirements are concerned I can't say, but the > > >following line of thinking does occur: You believe, I think, that there > >is, in > >reality, no knowing subject. > ... > S: No self. We both agree. > ... > >Now I'm not clear on what you consider > >'object' or > >'arammana' to mean, but I assume that you consider subject and object to > >be > >mutually dependent. > .... > S: No, in the way I use ‘object’ or arammana as used in the texts, it > represents the phenomena which are experienced through the 6 door-ways > regardless of any wisdom or lack of. So there is seeing or hearing now and > that which is seen, visible data or other sense door objects, but no > subject or self. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, then. We are not using the word in exactly the same way. I definitely accept that there is always content to experience, of various sorts. I take 'object', however, as indicating something facing a "subject" and being apprehended dualistically by that subject. That is the way our experience usually appears. There is, indeed, content of visual, auditory etc experience. In fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content. If that is what is meant by arammana, then I believe in it! But if there is the additional sense of it being a thing apprehended by a separate knowing, then 'arammana' means what I call an "object" grasped by a knowing "subject". My experience consisted in a disappearence of knowing separate from and facing a known. That mode of experience *was* experiencing, but there was neither subject nor object, neither separate nor identical - there was just the experience. The content was present, no different than it usually is - sights, sounds, etc all the same, and yet, at the same time, the experience was radically different. ---------------------------------------------------------- > .... > >If you do, then with no subject there is no object. > >If, on the > >other hand, you treat the word 'object' to mean nothing more than > >"phenomenon" > >or "(content of) experience", then yes, experience of a nondual sort, > >continues even when there is no sense of subject and its objects, and > >there is content > >to such experience, but I would consider defining 'arammana' as > >"experience" > >to be an inadequate and misleading definition. > .... > S: I would too. I would define the seeing or hearing as experienced and > the visible or heard as the arammana of those experiences. Whether this is > called ‘dual’ or ‘non-dual’ or anything else doesn’t really bother me. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is experienced as the content of the experience. I could say that it is "self-experiencing," except that such terminology is literally false and is misleading. It still suggests a connecting of two things, but the two now being coalesced into one - a reflexive knowing. But it is *not* reflexive. -------------------------------------------------- > > An ‘enlightened’ experience as I understand it, is not the loss of objects > but the full understanding of the objects experienced as anicca, dukkha > and anatta. This is why the path begins with the clear comprehending of > nama and rupa, not the clear comprehending of experiencing and eradication > of objects of experience. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I wouldn't make a claim about an "enlightenment experience". That would be way too grandiose. An enlightenment experience would be an awakening, a glimpse of nibbana, a taste of freedom. How my "insight experience" should be characterized I can't say, and what it might have led to I can't say. Unfortunately, it terrified me, and I ran away from it. (But still it was beneficial.) -------------------------------------------------- > > We read again and again in the suttas about the understanding and > detachment towards the objects experienced through the senses and the > understanding of the dangers of attachment and proliferation with regards > to these objects. > > With regard to the Kalaka sutta which Swee Boon raised; > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-024.html > > I think as Ken O indicated, it is clearly showing that in the case of the > Buddha, there is no proliferation or unwholesome dwelling (ma~n~nati) on > account of what is seen, heard and so on. No idea of self at all. > > In the Udana comy (PTS), Mucalinda chapter [132], the same lines from the > Kalaka sutta are quoted as indicating the depth of knowledge of the > Tathagata who knew all sense objects "either by way of its being desirable > or undesirable and so on, or by way of whichever term is applicable in the > case of things seen, heard, sensed and cognised, under countless names, in > thirteen cycles in fifty-two methods,.......For this was said by the Lord: > ‘That which,monks, is, for this world with its devas..with its (generation > of (devas and men, a thing seen, heard.....that do I know....that have I > come directly to know, for the Tathagata is that fathomed, to that the > Tathagata does not attend.’(A ii25). Thus he is Tathagata, in that it was > of that which is accordant (tatha) that he was a seer (dassitaaya). And in > this connection, the origin of the word ‘Tathaagata’ is to be understood > (to lie) in the sense of ‘accordant seeing’ (tathadassii).â€? > ... > <...> > It is still the case that I haven't the slightest doubt that my > >experience consisted of the absence of a dualistic, knowing-known event, > >and that > >while there was multisensory experiential content, there yet was no > >knowing that > >was separate from the content, and the content at no time was an object > >of > >such a subjective knowing. The experience was no more subjective than > >objective, > >and no more objective than subjective. > .... > S: Again, there may be some confusion with terms. At this moment, if there > is awareness of say feeling or hardness, just that reality ‘appears’ > momentarily as it is. There is no thought about this being an object or > any other label. Still, we can say that awareness has to be aware of a > nama or a rupa and in this sense even when we talking about the > development of satipatthana, there is always an object present and a citta > experiencing the object. The reason I asked for a reference to discuss > further was because I felt we were reaching an impasse of comparing > different, seemingly contradictory experiences. > .... > >And it is misleading to say it > >was > >both, and it is misleading to say it was neither. This is the way it > >was, and the > >Kalakarama Sutta really does describe it well. But I recognize that my > >claimed lack of doubt in the matter should in no way be satisfactory for > >you. > .... > S: Well, I’ll be interested in your further comments on the sutta above.As > I say, I think there may be some misunderstanding still in terminology. > For example, when we read in suttas like SN 35:26 (4) Understanding, about > ‘understanding the all’ as including the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, > eye-contact,feelings and so on by developing dispassion which leads to > abandoning. Would you suggests that when these actualities are understood > that they are not the objects of cittas with understanding? > ... > > I apologize for my ego-bound annoyance, and, more importantly, I > >apologize for letting it be expressed with a flavor of sharpness in my > >post to you. > >I am particularly displeased with the sarcastic second sentence of mine > >that > >I quote above. Sarcasm is far from right speech. Clearly, my experience, > >which > >produced some very important and very useful fallout in my life, still > >very > >much left my ego sense well intact! ;-) > .... > S: When I read your comment, I just thought “Oh, I’ve stepped on an > egg-shell....need to be more considerate, even when posting in hasteâ€?, so > it was a useful reflection for me. As Nina sort of said, we’re all like > babies or baby pups here really. It’s a live list and our various foibles > are bound to surface when we write as regularly as some of us do. > > I’ve left aside a couple of comments on Vinnana in D.O. as there will be > plenty of opportuntities when we get to it in the D.O. corner. > > Finally, given that all past wondrous experiences or insights have long > since gone, do you think there is any value in reflecting further on them > rather than understanding present dhammas? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think there is some value in remembering what the experience was like, though the quality of such memory degrades quickly . But heightened attention to and mindfulness of current experience, *current* experience being all there ever is, is certainly of primary importance. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31614 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Howard > ========================= > I have an opinion about this: k: That does not surprise me at all ;-). H: We almost automatically think that there can be no influencing, controlling, and coordinating without there being an influencer, controller, and coordinator - in short, without there being an agent "in charge." k: this is not what I say. Let me quote you a summarised Visud passage. In the Visud, Chapter XX 96 - 103 He understand thus “there is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to it arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. After knowing the above knowledge, he sees arising of materiality with the arising of ignorance, with the arising of craving, with the arising of kamma, with the arising of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). He sees the fall of the materiality in the sense of condition cessation with the cessation of ignorance, with the cessation of craving, with the cessation of kamma, with the cessation of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). Likewise the same for the other three mentality aggregates, change the nutriment to contact for feelings, preception and formaton aggregates as for consciousness, change the nutriment to mentality-materiality. When he thus see rise and fall in the two ways, according to condition, according to instant, the several truths (i.e. 4NT), aspect of the dependent origination, methods and and characteristics become evident to him. The aspect of dependent origination – refers to understanding the forward order (when this exist, that comes to be), in reverse order (when this does not exist, that does not come to be). The method – is about knowing that there is cause and fruit, the view of annihilation view is abandon. Knowing that in an instant that each [state] is new [as it arises] (this is talking about one citta moment) – the eternity view is abandon The characteristics of not self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to condition owing to this discovery that the states have no curiosity and that their existence depends upon conditions. Note the last paragraph <> I rest my case. If we can change conditions to influence these conditions, this statement of DO will not be true. In fact if we can influence or there is control, this statement will not be true. Ken O 31615 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:42am Subject: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear DSG dhamma friends, Stephen has asked me if the term "vipassanaa" occurs in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, and if it can be found in other Suttams as well. The following is my positive answers to his questions. I also gave further explanations on the expressions "Ajjattam" and "Bahiddhaa" as used in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Please enjoy! :-) Suan _______ _______ ________ _____ Dear Stephen and all How are you? Glad to hear from you. 1. Stephen wrote: "I also have two questions. >"Also very interested by the "in this way he remains focussed >internally on..."" > >The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye >kaayaanupassii viharati". > >We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives >as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body >privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily >phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! Why is watching bodily phenomena internal or private?" ___________ ______ _____ Suan: Before I answer, I would like to modify slightly my translation as follows. "Thus, the monk lives as a wise observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body privately." The commentary on Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam explained the expressions "Iti ajjattam vaa .../ bahiddhaa vaa ..." with regard to the observation practice of exhalation and inhalation as follows. "Internally or privately" means one's body of exhalation and inhalation while "externally" refers to other people's bodies of exhalations and inhalations. Please remember that the Section under discussion is how to live observing wisely the bodily functions of breathing out and breathing in. Thus, the adverb "internally" specifies one's bodily functions of exhalation and inhalation while the adverb "externally" specifies other people's bodily functions of breathing out and breathing in. Here ends Suan's answer to Stephen's first question. ______________________________________________________ 2. Stephen's second question follows. "And second, the obvious question: Does the word "vipassana" occur in the Satipatthana sutta as in your subject heading? I have no problems equating the two, but is it actually sutta based?" ________ _______ _______ _____ Suan answered thus. The word "ANUPASSII" as in "Kaayaanupassii" occurs many times in the Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Anupassii, when meaning a wise observer, is one who has "Anupassanaa". When we have the term "Anupassanaa", this amounts to having the term "Vipassanaa" as well. Pali quote coming! Both the terms "anupassanaa" and "vipassanaa" in their turn are merely the synonyms of the term "paññaa". Please view the following Pali quote from Section 357, Vibha~nga, the second Abhidhamma Pi.taka text. This quote defines the term "Anupassii" by simple asking "What is anupassanaa (katamaa anupassanaa)?" "Vibha~nge pana anupassiiti tattha "katamaa anupassanaa? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa VIPASSANAA sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaa paasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaa ratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ayam vuccati anupassanaa." Did you see the term "vipassanaa" in capital letters? Please also check other synonyms such as Sammaadi.t.thi (the Right View) as the last one. Stephen's second question has the following sub-question. "but is it actually sutta based?" Yes, the term "vipassanaa" occurs in all the Suttam Nikaayas. For example, Sangiiti Suttam, Paathikavaggo, in Diigha Nikaayo. Similarly, in Majjhima Nikkaayo, Samyutta Nikkayo, Anguttara Nikkaayo, and Khuddaka Nikaayo. Many times! I hope my post covered your questions to some degree. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org (oreznoone@a... wrote: Hello Suan, all This question of 'internally' and 'externally' came up recently; this phrase occurs in a number of suttas. Your post, which I found quite interesting, only covers the first half. What can you make of the second -- externally - - say just in the context of the Satipatthana sutta (i.e., without assuming that all such usages mean just the same)? ___________________________________________________________ Here's a refresher, using part of a reply I never posted, on a suggestion by Victor, though the phrase here comes from another sutta (SN XXII.48: Khandha Sutta). >Internal aggregates include everything in the world that comes into >my experience. >External aggregates include everything in the world that comes into >others' experience. So the rupa (body) aggregate named 'stephen' would also consist of some items unperceived by me but perceived by others; and this is true, though in special circumstances I might be able to see, for instance, inside my own eye, or my liver. One might also have feelings (sankhara) that others can perceive but their 'owner' could not, for instance jealousy. Many might know this of someone's behavior except the person who's behavior it was; he might even deny it, or come to understand that he was in fact jealous by others explaining his actions to him. But vinnana? Or sanna? How could these be perceivable by another? Even vedana seems doubtful. So I'm doubtful, though this seems to be an obvious take on the meaning. Rather than self and others my thought was one person, looking inward and outward, namely observing themself and others. This corresponds to the Mahahatthipadopama sutta (MN #28 ) where one is to meditate on the elements, both internally and externally: "I am aware of the earth element in me. I am not the earth element...outside me...I am not..." The idea here seems to be to break down the inside / outside distinction, to have no boundary between the person and the world: they are the same elements, and they are both not the self. But I have some problems with this reading as well, even though I think it's right. (It may also be in harmony with Herman's earlier post on this subject.) ____________________________________________________________ I also have two questions. >"Also very interested by the "in this way he remains focussed >internally on..."" > >The Pali expression in the third quote is "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye >kaayaanupassii viharati". > >We could translate the third Pali expression as "Thus, the monk lives >as an observer / watcher of the bodily phenomena in the body >privately." Here "ajjattam, internally" refers to the bodily >phenomena with respect to one's body. Hence, privately! Why is watching bodily phenomena internal or private? That is, someone else could just as well watch / observe the positions of my body. Does this mean one is attending to some kinesthetic or proprioceptive sensations (so that, for instance, one knows the position of their arm in the dark, or relation to downwardness / gravity, due to internal sensations)? I note that these aren't even mentioned as senses in the suttas, nor probably in the commentaries (though they are so understood, among others, now). And second, the obvious question: Does the word "vipassana" occur in the Satipatthana sutta as in your subject heading? I have no problems equating the two, but is it actually sutta based? I also have no problems interpreting the sutta as the Buddha's Teachings On Pure Rigpa. Among others. metta, stephen 31616 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 9:13:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > >========================= > > I have an opinion about this: > > k: That does not surprise me at all ;-). > > H: We almost automatically think that there can be no influencing, > controlling, and coordinating without there being an influencer, > controller, and coordinator - in short, without there being an agent > "in charge." > > k: this is not what I say. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't say that you think there is a controller. I'm sure you do not. What I say is that you seem to think that the concept of "control" implies a controller. I say that it does not. Cetana is the primary impulsive operation of influencing, coordinating, and fabricating - the central sankharic operation, and it is cetana that I mean by "influencing"/"controlling". It is impersonal, but it is rarely thought of so. ------------------------------------------------- Let me quote you a summarised Visud> > passage. In the Visud, Chapter XX 96 - 103 > He understand thus “there is no heap or store of unarisen > mentality-materiality [existing] prior to it arising. When it > arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, > it does not go in any direction. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That sure sounds right to me! ----------------------------------------------- > > After knowing the above knowledge, he sees arising of materiality > with the arising of ignorance, with the arising of craving, with the > arising of kamma, with the arising of the materiality aggregate > (i.e. Nutriment). He sees the fall of the materiality in the sense > of condition cessation with the cessation of ignorance, with the > cessation of craving, with the cessation of kamma, with the cessation > of the materiality aggregate (i.e. Nutriment). Likewise the same > for the other three mentality aggregates, change the nutriment to > contact for feelings, preception and formaton aggregates as for > consciousness, change the nutriment to mentality-materiality. > > When he thus see rise and fall in the two ways, according to > condition, according to instant, the several truths (i.e. 4NT), > aspect of the dependent origination, methods and and characteristics > become evident to him. > > The aspect of dependent origination – refers to understanding the > forward order (when this exist, that comes to be), in reverse order > (when this does not exist, that does not come to be). > > The method – is about knowing that there is cause and fruit, the view > of annihilation view is abandon. Knowing that in an instant that > each [state] is new [as it arises] (this is talking about one citta > moment) – the eternity view is abandon > > The characteristics of not self becomes evident to him through seeing > rise according to condition owing to this discovery that the states > have no curiosity and that their existence depends upon conditions. > > Note the last paragraph < conditons>> I rest my case. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what "case" you are resting or how what you said and quoted in the foregoing is supposed to be something I would object to. -------------------------------------------------- If we can change conditions to> > influence these conditions, this statement of DO will not be true. > In fact if we can influence or there is control, this statement will > not be true. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that you want to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an agent. Cetana is an operation that has consequences. There is kamma and there are the results of kamma. And kamma (volition) is impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being. How do we differ except for your interpreting the concept of influence or control to imply an influencer or controller? --------------------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31617 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control HI Howard ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that > you want to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an agent. Cetana is an operation that has consequences. There is kamma and there are the results of kamma. And kamma (volition) is impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being. How do we differ except for your interpreting the concept of influence or control to imply an influencer or controller? > --------------------------------------------------- k: Cetana can neither control or influence, it can neither define as such also. Control or influence are mental construct and not reality. Cetana is purely a volition. Its principle is only cause and effect as you said. Cause and effect is not an influence, nor a control, or define as such, it is simply natural law like gravity, impersonal, conditioned and empty of own-being ;-). It does not influence effect, it just produce effect from a cause. I hope that clarifies. Ken O 31618 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 10:53:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > If we can change conditions to> > >influence these conditions, this statement of DO will not be true. > >In fact if we can influence or there is control, this statement will > >not be true. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that you want > to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an agent. Cetana is > an > operation that has consequences. There is kamma and there are the results of > > kamma. And kamma (volition) is impersonal, conditioned, and empty of > own-being. > How do we differ except for your interpreting the concept of influence or > control to imply an influencer or controller? > ========================= There is a point with regard to this that I think I should make. I *do* agree that the sankhara of D.O., as with all the links therein, pertain to events that are defiled by ignorance, most particularly by the sense of self. While all elements of the sankhara khandha are, in themselves, impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being, as they occur in the scheme of D.O., they are all infected by atta-sense, and they carry that sense of self as an infection being transmitted from link to link. I see ignorance as mainly atta-sense. That atta-sense is transmitted through infected sankharic elements (cetasikas). When ignorance is uprooted, cetana still operates, but neutrally, and not in a self-oriented fashion. There will still be chanda, but no longer tanha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31619 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 11:10:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > HI Howard > > ------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't know what you are talking about. It still seems that > >you want to view influence as something personal, pertaining to an > agent. Cetana is an operation that has consequences. There is kamma > and there are the results of kamma. And kamma (volition) is > impersonal, conditioned, and empty of own-being. How do we differ > except for your interpreting the concept of influence or control to > imply an influencer or controller? > >--------------------------------------------------- > > k: Cetana can neither control or influence, it can neither define as > such also. Control or influence are mental construct and not reality. > Cetana is purely a volition. Its principle is only cause and effect > as you said. Cause and effect is not an influence, nor a control, or > define as such, it is simply natural law like gravity, impersonal, > conditioned and empty of own-being ;-). It does not influence effect, > it just produce effect from a cause. I hope that clarifies. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Nope, not at all! ;-)) I just see that you dislike the words 'influence' and 'control'. I will try to remember to refrain from using them in your presence. ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > > Ken O > ========================= With uncontrolled metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31620 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:09am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.2.) § 5.2. "And how is a monk content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and alms food to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content. [DN 2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31621 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:24am Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Ken and Philip, Thank you, Ken, for your message. Philip, I would also recommend this page in Access To Insight on right view: Right View samma ditthi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ditthi.html as well as the following discourses: Majjhima Nikaya 9 Sammaditthi Sutta The Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html Anguttara Nikaya X.93 Ditthi Sutta Views http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-093.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Ken, Victor and all. > > Thank you for your concern, Ken. I am taking everything with a > grain of salt these days, staying open to all views, or trying to, to > avoid my past error of being convinced that walking on only one side > of the sidewalk is Right. > > I found this in the "Assumptions" sutta that Victor was kind > enough to link me to. > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard > to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons > ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of > ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I > am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > I think I can say - with "I" used as always for convenience - that > I have at least come to enough understanding to be able to put myself > in with the "well-instructed disciple" above. A beginner's right > understanding is well described here. I have not learned enough about > or reflected enough in the light of abhidhamma to be able to join in > the kind of discussion which will probably ensue from Victor's pst, > but the basic right understanding referred to above is gradually > rising, and I am very grateful to this group for that. > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Victor and Philip (and all), > > > > I seem to have slunk back into `lurking' mode -- which is easy to > do > > when there are so many excellent posts to read. However, I feel > > compelled to interject: > > > > Philip has reminded us; `everything we mistake for self is just > nama > > and rupa.' > > > > Victor has corrected him (?!) by saying; `nama and rupa should be > > seen as not self.' > > > > I am worried that Philip will not realise what Victor means by > > this. Similar misunderstandings have happened many times before, > > resulting in weeks (sometimes months) of frustrating discussion > from > > which no agreement has been reached. > > > > Victor, please make clear that you are asserting there IS a self > ?E > a > > self that is neither nama nor rupa. Then, discussion can proceed > > productively with all parties fully informed. > > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H 31622 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:40am Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.2.) Hi all, Any suggestion for living in contentment as a layperson? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.2. > "And how is a monk content? Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies > with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set > of robes to provide for his body and alms food to provide for his > hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities > along. This is how a monk is content. > > [DN 2] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31623 From: hasituppada Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:24am Subject: Re: On Control Friend Swee Boon, Please let me know whether the reference you have given is to the Gaddula Sutta (1) and (2). I read the two Suttas at" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.htmlbut I did not find your quote: "Or, in one who doesn't assume control to be the self, he discerns control as control. He discerns control arises without a self. He discerns control falls away without a self." It may be that did not read the Suttas referred to well. Therefore,could you please let me know from where you got this particular quote ? with metta, Hasituppada. ____________________________________________________________________ Hi Group, Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no volitions'. Or, in one who assumes control to be the self, he does not discern control as control. Unable to reconcile with the doctrine of anatta, he wrongly discerns 'there is no control'. Regards, Swee Boon 31624 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear Larry > > Huh??? What??? Never mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Quid ? Quod ?? Quomodo ??? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Insight into anatta can be > found in group dynamics. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Since you don't begin thinking that group dynamics are alike Verbal Families in Hebraic language (Lamed Ain, Pei Aleph, Ain Ain, etc), it's O.K. for me! Mettaya, ícaro 31625 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Hasituppada and Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/22/04 1:06:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, hasituppada@y... writes: > > Friend Swee Boon, > > Please let me know whether the reference you have given is to the > Gaddula Sutta (1) and (2). I read the two Suttas at" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-099.htmlbut > > I did not find your quote: "Or, in one who doesn't assume control to > be the self, he discerns control as control. He discerns control > arises without a self. He discerns control falls away without a > self." > > It may be that did not read the Suttas referred to well. > Therefore,could you please let me know from where you got this > particular quote ? > > with metta, > Hasituppada. > ============================== Much as I regret to say it, I don't find that in sn22-099 or in sn22-100 either. Were you paraphrasing or interpolating, Swee Boon, or was the wrong sutta referenced? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31626 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Typo (?) > Since you don't begin thinking that group dynamics are alike > Verbal Families in Hebraic language (Lamed Ain, Pei Aleph, Ain Ain, > etc), it's O.K. for me! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Could I better post "Hebrew Language" ? Hebrew or Hebraic ? The Cambridge Dictionary has the two forms!!! Mettaya, ícaro 31627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Paticcasamupada2 Dear Christine, Many thanks to Robert and also to you for forwarding this beautiful post. Some time ago we talked about Sumana. I am glad that here the relevance of D.O to the present moment is stressed. Nina. op 21-03-2004 21:20 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- > From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: > The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated > birth and > passing away of beings in this world. 31628 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:34am Subject: Vis. XIV, 66, notes The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 66. 20. 'Growth of matter' has the characteristic of setting up. Its function is to make material instances emerge in the first instance. It is manifested as launching; or it is manifested as the completed state. Its proximate cause is grown matter. N: launching is the translation of niyyaatana: the Tiika explains: as it were making them go out, leading them on (niyyaatento viya). 21. 'Continuity of matter' has the characteristic of occurrence. Its function is to anchor. N: to anchor: in Pali: anuppabandhana: to follow immediately.The Tiika explains: Anuppabandhanarasaati pubbaaparavasena anu anu pabandhanakiccaa. As to the words, its function is following closely, its task is following along in view of what proceeds and what follows. N: Thus, initial arising is followed immediately by continuation. Vis text: It is manifested as non-interruption. Its proximate cause is matter that is anchored. N: It was explained by A. Sujin recently: each rúpa must arise and fall away, but there is continuation before it decays and falls away. There must be four characteristics, not three. However, there are different methods of teaching. Vis: Both of these are terms for matter at its birth; but owing to difference of mode, and according to [different persons'] susceptibility to instruction the teaching in the summary (uddesa) in the Dhammasa.ngani is given as 'growth and continuity' (cf. Dhs. 596); N: according to [different persons'] susceptibility to instruction. The Tiika says; veneyyavasena: for the sake of people that are capable of being taught. The teaching was adapted to the capabilities of different people. Vis: but since there is here no difference in meaning, consequently in the description (niddesa) of these words, 'the setting up of the sense-bases is the growth of matter' and 'the growth of matter is the continuity of matter' is said (Dhs. 642, 732, 865). N: Thus, we have to remember that the four characteristics are taught by different methods: according to the duration of one rupa (fiftyone submoments of citta), or by way of conventional sense. As to the last method, we read in the Co to the Abh. Sangaha: At the moment of rebirth in the human plane there are three decads of rupa produced by kamma: the decads of heartbase, bodysense and sex. The decads of the sense organs arise later on. **** Nina. 31629 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:26pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hello Victor. Thank you kindly for the guidance. BTW, if I'm not mistaken, it was you who posted a recommendation for Wings to Awakening at Access to insight. I have started reading it with great interest. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken and Philip, > > Thank you, Ken, for your message. > > Philip, I would also recommend this page in Access To Insight on > right view: 31630 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Vism.XIV 69 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 69. 23. 'Impermanence of matter' has the characteristic of complete breaking up. Its function is to make material instances subside. It is manifested as destruction and fall (cf. Dhs. 645). Its proximate cause is matter that is completely breaking up. 31631 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Hasituppada & Howard, If you had read the suttas, you would know that that was my interpretation. I assume that you would have read the sutta. That's why I always put the link to it. In any case, this is my thinking on the issue of "no control". The view of "no control" is nothing more than another form of atta view. Regards, Swee Boon 31632 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Icaro, You asked: "Could I better post "Hebrew Language"? Hebrew or Hebraic? The Cambridge Dictionary has the two forms!!!" L: Just "Hebrew" is most common, but they all are acceptable. How are the group dynamics in Brazil, loose or compact? No doubt both tasty and colorful! Can you touch, taste, smell, see, and eat the sky? Larry 31633 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, Can the present cetana condition the next dhamma? Can it condition the next dhamma to be of a kusala nature(action)? Or of an akusala nature(action)? Can it condition the next dhamma to be permanent? Can it condition the next dhamma to be "of self"? Regards, Swee Boon 31634 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/22/2004 7:02:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Hasituppada & Howard, > > If you had read the suttas, you would know that that was my > interpretation. I assume that you would have read the sutta. > That's why I always put the link to it. ------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, good. I suspected that something of that sort was the case. The way you laid it out, it wasn't clear to us that you were giving your interpretation. Hasitupadda evidently thought that all of it was being attributed to the sutta, and so it seemed to me as well, which is exactly why there was the perplexity on our part when reading the sutta directly. [Now, you see, you should have made very clear, in simple language, short words, and elementary phrases, where you were interpreting and where you were quoting, because one can never go wrong in underestimating the intelligence of one's fellow human beings!!] ;-)) ------------------------------- > > In any case, this is my thinking on the issue of "no control". > The view of "no control" is nothing more than another form > of > atta view. > > Regards, > Swee Boon ========================= Thanks very much for the clarification, Swee Boon. With metta, Howard 31635 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:36pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, > To me, only with an identity then there will be control. Isn't this just the very assumption that was talked about? Regards, Swee Boon 31636 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Howard, > Now, you see, you should have made very clear, in simple language, > short words, and elementary phrases, where you were interpreting > and where you were quoting, because one can never go wrong in > underestimating the intelligence of one's fellow human beings!!] ;-)) Thank you, Howard. Regards, Swee Boon 31637 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Swee Boon Let me pharaphase you, correct me if I am wrong Earlier you said there is some kind of deliberate consideration of dhamma and the cetana of this deliberation is not self. I said when we have deliberate consideration, the concept of self is already creep into it, so likewise the cetana that conditioned is also has a shade of sel. Cetana can conditioned dhamma be it kusala or akusala but it does not mean it there is some kind of influence or control. It is simply following rules - kusala cetana condition kusala dhammas. Other factors that involved, kusala cetana can condition akusala dhammas. There is no influence per se. It is just following rules that are naturally set since the begingless just like gravity. Ken O 31638 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Howard Let me add on to what you have said. I remember I read it somewhere DO is not simply just one cause one effect, it has multiple cause multiple effect, it is only for teaching it is describe as one cause, one effect. In each start of rebirth-linking, other than moha,there is also lobha involved. So in the link ignorance function is to blind while lobha function is to attached to a self or craving for existence. I will not say moha as mainly atta-sense. It is lobha that conditioned atta-sense, it is moha that prevent one to see there is no atta. Its is two fruits and two causes. But I do not know which cetana you are refering. If one refering to kamma or the formations, cetana is resultant kamma (fruit). IMHO that is why an Arahant even though enlighted still have to experience the kamma of this present life, the resultant effect. If you are refering to cetana as a volition that condition the next rebirth, Arahant has inoperative cetana. Ken O 31639 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:30pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.3.) § 5.3. "There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old robe cloth at all. He does not, for the sake of robe cloth, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting cloth, he is not agitated. Getting cloth, he uses it unattached to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old robe cloth at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is diligent, deft, alert, & mindful. This is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the noble ones. "Furthermore, the monk is content with any old almsfood at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old almsfood at all. He does not, for the sake of almsfood, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting almsfood, he is not agitated. Getting almsfood, he uses it unattached to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old almsfood at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is diligent, deft, alert, & mindful. This is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the noble ones. "Furthermore, the monk is content with any old lodging at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old lodging at all. He does not, for the sake of lodging, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting lodging, he is not agitated. Getting lodging, he uses it unattached to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old lodging at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is diligent, deft, alert, & mindful. This is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the noble ones." [AN IV.28] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31640 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:39pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Phil, No problem. Yes, I posted a recommendation for the book Wings to Awakening. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hello Victor. > > Thank you kindly for the guidance. BTW, if I'm not mistaken, it > was you who posted a recommendation for Wings to Awakening at Access > to insight. I have started reading it with great interest. > > Metta, > Phil 31641 From: Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/22/04 10:20:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > Let me add on to what you have said. I remember I read it somewhere > DO is not simply just one cause one effect, it has multiple cause > multiple effect, it is only for teaching it is describe as one > cause, one effect. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Quite so. -------------------------------------- > > In each start of rebirth-linking, other than moha,there is also lobha > involved. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. Craving leads to becoming, which leads to birth. Craving conditions ignorance, and ignorance conditions craving. D.O is cyclic. -------------------------------------- So in the link ignorance function is to blind while lobha> > function is to attached to a self or craving for existence. I will > not say moha as mainly atta-sense. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I will say it. ------------------------------------- It is lobha that conditioned> > atta-sense, it is moha that prevent one to see there is no atta. Its > is two fruits and two causes. --------------------------------------- Howard : And still, ignorance is mainly atta-sense and atta-view. --------------------------------------- > > > But I do not know which cetana you are refering. If one refering to > kamma or the formations, cetana is resultant kamma (fruit). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha said that kamma is cetana/volition. I am talking about cetana = kamma = volition = intention. (Of course, in an arahant, cetana is neutral and is not kamma.) ----------------------------------------- IMHO> > that is why an Arahant even though enlighted still have to experience > the kamma of this present life, the resultant effect. If you are > refering to cetana as a volition that condition the next rebirth, > Arahant has inoperative cetana. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Cetana = kamma = volition. Kamma vipaka is another matter. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31642 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry (& Icaro,Jon,Nina), --- Larry wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I thought your comments on my comments were perfectly reasonable but > they weren't on the same "train". I was going to New York and you > were headed to Los Angeles. I have found that often my explanations > just exaggerate misunderstanding so I decided to snip it. ..... S: I’d like to see everyone get on the same train (attachment, I know) and would therefore be glad to hear any of your explanations further, so that we might at least try to get to New York with you (and meet Howard there at the same time;-)). We had some discussions a while back on the 3rd stage of insight (sammasana-~naa.na), the knowledge of groups such as the kalapas of rupas. At this stage the developed panna fully understands the succeeding namas and rupas arising and falling away (in repeated series of javana cittas), not by thinking but by many moments of direct understanding of those namas and rupas appearing. This is how it’s possible for the knowledge of groups to be known, even though only one object at a time ever appears. It seems when we talk that this must be theoretical understanding only or some kind of conundrum, just as when we talk in the beginning about clearly distinguishing nama and rupa or understanding conditions. However, it only seems like that because our panna is not developed enough to really comprehend. Even so, the insight at this third stage is still called ‘tender’(taru.na), so knowing how much wisdom has to be accumulated even for tender insights, one has an idea how much has to be accumulated for ‘insight as a power’ (balava). Perhaps this may help us learn more about our present ignorance. We discussed this difficult area before and I’d be happy to elaborate further according to my limited understanding. We can also look at the arising of cetasikas together. Although awareness can only ever be aware of one mental factor at a time, by repeatedly being aware of say ignorance and attachment, I think it becomes more apparent (of course intellectually in the beginning) that attachment never arises without ignorance and so on. Of course this is the reason why we always have to stress that realities have to be clearly understood theoretically and then directly in the beginning, over and over again, with namas distinctly known from rupas. I think you touch on many very subtle and difficult areas and do us all a big favour by encouraging Nina’s and others’ explanations, even if (like in my discussion with Howard) we’re travelling on different trains for a while. Please help us find your train so that we all reach the same destination eventually. Metta, Sarah p.s On seeing and visible object, I don't think I can add anything more to Nina's comments, but to say how simple and yet profound I find the teachings. What is seen now (visually) with complete ignorance is just the same as that which is seen with wisdom. What I mean to say is that it's never a question of ever seeing visible objects any differently from how we've ever seen them. So we don't suddently start seeing blank sheets or colours, but we continue to see 'everything' we've always seen and then identified. Gradually, however, the characteristics of 'seeing', 'visible object', 'recognizing', 'thinking' and so on are known for what they are. It's a little like coming round in a circle after following various wrong views to find that daily life is just as it's always been. The only difference is the lenses have been cleaned and need to be cleaned more and more to clearly understand the various dhammas arising and falling away at this moment. Are we on the same train here, Larry??? Please help us if not. Apologies if I've butted in and said too much. I'll gratefully accept a 'quid?, quad?, quomodo?? or even Quasimodo response from Icaro too;-) ====== 31643 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Suan, how are you? Thank you very much for your post. I enjoyed eading it. Nina. op 22-03-2004 15:42 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Stephen has asked me if the term "vipassanaa" occurs in > Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, and if it can be found in other Suttams as > well. 31644 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:22pm Subject: Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Dear Ken O & All, Appreciating all your posts. You wrote before (to Jack): > K: I think they do not understand the truth because most of them do > not study Abdhidhamma in details. If one read the Abdhidhamma in > details, a lot truth will be understand be it intellectually. No > confusion will arise, confidence will arise in the dhamma. And most > important, it helps us to see conditional relations of dhamma, all > are not self. So much benefit in learning it yet so many people > shun away, to me it is a great loss for them. .... S: Whilst I agree with the sentiment and value in studying and considering the details, I don’t think we should overlook the profundity of the teachings at all. For example, as we’re discussing Dependent Origination and the Mahanidana sutta, let me add a part from the commentary (as I’ve quoted it before) which is relevant to the introduction extract by B.Bodhi which Chris just gave: ***** “ ‘The Dependent Arising is so deep and appears so deep...’ Comy: Being deep, it appears deep. For something (a body of water) might be shallow yet appear deep, like stagnant water having a dark colour because of rotting leaves, etc; this might be only knee-deep, yet appear shallow, like the serene water of the Jewel River, which is a hundred fathoms deep yet seems to be knwee-deep. Other water might be shallow and appear shallow, like the water in a pot, etc. And still other water might be deep and appear deep, like the water in the ocean at the foot of Mount Sineru. Thus water can be described in four ways. But this is not so in regard to dependent arising. This can be described in only one way: ‘it is deep and appears deep.’ But though this is so, the Venerable Ananda says: ‘To myself it seems as clear as clear can be. How wonderful and marvellous, venerable sir!’ Thus revealing his own astonishment, he asked a question,sat down, and became silent..... “ ‘Do not say so, Ananda!’ Comy: Hearing his statement, the Exalted One thought to himself: ‘Ananda says that a matter which belongs to the domain of the Buddhas is clear to himself. This is like stretching out one’s hand to take hold of the highest plane of existence, like trying to cut through Mount Sineru and remove its core, like wanting to cross the ocian without a ship, or like turning over the earth and trying to take its nutritive essence. Let me point out its depth to him.’ then he said: ‘Do not say so, Ananda!’ “ **** S: Whilst increased understanding removes confusion as you suggested, it also brings a heightened appreciation of the depth of the Buddha’s knowledge and teaching which even Ananda had failed to fully appreciate. I believe you and Larry were discussing the relationship between ignorance and the 4 Noble Truths and I’d like to add another quoted on this from Dispeller (Sammohavinodanii, PTS transl, Classif. of the Structure of Conditions, 662), even though we haven’t discussed formations (sa’nkhaaraa) yet. I think it also stresses why it is deeper and deeper understanding rather than any ‘cosmetic’ avoidance of particular situations that has to be developed: ***** “Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four truths in particular prevents him from recognising as suffering the suffering called the fruit of merit (S: i.e kusala vipaka) which is fraught with the many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he initiates the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental formation in order to attain that [very suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a mountain cliff. “Also not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds aforesaid which is the condition for that [suffering], like a moth falling into a lamp’s flame, and like one who wants the drop of honey licking the honey-smeared knife-edge. Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of sense-desire, etc and the results thereof, through [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and being overcome by defilements, he initiates the formation of demerit occurring in the three doors, like a child who plays with filth and like one who wants to die and eats poison. Also, not aware of the suffering in change [and suffering] in formations [present] in immaterial results, through the perversion (vipallasa) of [perceiving them as] eternal, etc, he initiates the formation of the imperturbable (S: profitable volitions of immaterial sphere (kusalaa cetanaa aruupaavacara])which is the mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city.” ***** S: So ignorance of dependent origination and of the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all formations, including wholesome or profitable volitions, even of arupa jhanas, propels the cycle continuously from moment to moment, life to life ‘like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city’. Hopefully as wisdom grows, it will see the futility of the road to the goblin city for what it is;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 31645 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, S:On ‘objects’ contd: --- upasaka@a... wrote:> -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, then. We are not using the word in exactly the same way. I > definitely accept that there is always content to experience, of various > sorts. I > take 'object', however, as indicating something facing a "subject" and > being > apprehended dualistically by that subject. That is the way our > experience > usually appears. .... S:(btw, somewhere there was a typo in what I wrote - a ’d’ added in error to ‘experience’, in case you were doubly confused). This was what I suspected (i.e different definitions), because in your other posts when you refer to what is seen, as opposed to conceived etc, we’re very much on the same page and this is probably why you were so understandably agitated by my comment. If I can try to paraphrase (and find some agreement) with what you’ve written here: ‘While there is an idea of self or a ‘subject’ experiencing, there will always be the idea of ‘things’ or ‘objects’ experienced. That is the way our experience usually appears.’ Can we also agree that in truth ‘there are only ever ‘experiences’ or ‘experiencing’ of various phenomena, whether they be actualities or concepts of actulalities or concepts of non-actualities.’??? ..... Howard: >There is, indeed, content of visual, auditory etc > experience. In > fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content. > If that > is what is meant by arammana, then I believe in it! .... S: I think we’re making some progress. Now arammana includes the object (content?) of visual, auditory etc experience. Also, it includes all mind objects whether these be namas, rupas (actualities or paramattha dhammas) or concepts (pa~n~natti. When you say that ‘In fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content’, are you still distinguishing between say visual consciousness and object/content of it? In other words, whilst there can only ever be the experiencing or knowing of one reality/actuality at a time, the clear distinction must be apparent. .... Howard: >But if there is the > additional sense of it being a thing apprehended by a separate knowing, > then > 'arammana' means what I call an "object" grasped by a knowing "subject". .... S: As soon as there is the idea of a ‘thing’, then perhaps we agree that wrong view is involved, with your definitions of ‘subject’ and ‘object’. In this case we’re in agreement (momentarily of course;-)). This doesn’t mean that everytime a concept is the arammana, that there is this wrong view at all. Usually, there’s just plain ignorance. .... Howard: > My > experience consisted in a disappearence of knowing separate from and > facing a known. > That mode of experience *was* experiencing, but there was neither > subject nor > object, neither separate nor identical - there was just the experience. .... S: If we refer to a moment of pa~n~naa now, simply the characteristic of a nama or rupa appears *just as it is*. For example, if seeing consciousness is the object (arammana) of panna, it’s nature of seeing experience without any idea of self or subject is apparent. If visible object is the arammana, it’s nature of being seen or visual content is known and then gone. Are we on the same train here? .... Howard: > The > content was present, no different than it usually is - sights, sounds, > etc all the > same, and yet, at the same time, the experience was radically different. > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: I think in the beginning that moments of satipatthana are so brief as we’ve said many times (same tune and I loved Sukin’s variations on the theme;-)),and there are bound to be uncertainties and thinking and wondering about what an experience might have been. Gradually, I think as understanding increases, there’s less uncertainty and less attempt to try and trace the past experiences, but of course this is very natural and even these kinds of thinking can be known for what they are too. .... > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is experienced as the content of the experience. I could say > that > it is "self-experiencing," except that such terminology is literally > false and > is misleading. It still suggests a connecting of two things, but the two > now > being coalesced into one - a reflexive knowing. But it is *not* > reflexive. > -------------------------------------------------- S: I erased my part too quickly. I think this was on duality/non-duality which I don’t find very helpful. I’m concerned about this ‘coalesced into one’ and whether namas and rupas are still clearly distinguished or somehow blurred together in the experience as I understand (or quite likely misunderstand) your explanation. .... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I wouldn't make a claim about an "enlightenment experience". That > > would be way too grandiose. An enlightenment experience would be an > awakening, a > glimpse of nibbana, a taste of freedom. How my "insight experience" > should be > characterized I can't say, and what it might have led to I can't say. > Unfortunately, it terrified me, and I ran away from it. (But still it > was beneficial.) > -------------------------------------------------- S: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean ‘enlightening’ in the grandiose sense with a capital E. As I suggested before, I think we all have special experiences and poignant moments which we cling to and can’t help dwelling on, but we have to let them go, otherwise we just accumulate more strong lobha. I mentioned the example of letting go of ‘the voices’ or the fantasies for some. For others it may be the ‘sunsets’ or ‘beauty’ of nature, whilst for others a ‘near-death’ experience or great trauma experienced. For others still, it may be a ‘meditative experience’, an ‘insight’ or ‘flash of wisdom’. In all these cases the problem or benefit or experience is long gone, but the danger is in the present attachment or ma~n~nati (thinks in a distorted way) as referred to in the Kalaka sutta and discussed in detail in the Mulapariyaya sutta as I see it, of course. .... > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think there is some value in remembering what the experience > was > like, though the quality of such memory degrades quickly . But > heightened > attention to and mindfulness of current experience, *current* experience > being all > there ever is, is certainly of primary importance. > ----------------------------------------------------- S: I’m glad we agree on this. The former can only be thinking (usually distorted and usually with attachment to *my* experience)as I suggested we all do, hopefully not treading on an egg-shell;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31646 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Dear Nina & All, I appreciated the following extract you recently posted in characteristics of rupas 3 is also relevant to what I posted below about the danger of ignorance about dukkha owing to the lack of understanding of the impermanence of all realities: Nina: "The 'Atthasåliní'...compares birth, decay and death to three enemies, of whom the first leads someone into the forest, the second throws him down and the third cuts off his head. We read: ... For birth is like the enemy who draws him to enter the forest; because he has come to birth in this or that place. Decay is like the enemy who strikes and fells him to earth when he has reached the forest, because the aggregates (khandhas) produced are weak, dependent on others, lying down on a couch. Death is like the enemy who with a sword cuts off the head of him when he is fallen to the ground, because the aggregates having attained to decay, are come to destruction of life. This simile reminds us of the disadvantages of all conditioned realities that do not last and are therefore no refuge. However, when understanding (paññå) has not realized the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, one does not grasp their danger...." ***** --- Sarah wrote: > Dispeller (Sammohavinodanii, PTS transl, Classif. of the Structure of > Conditions, 662) > ***** > “Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four > truths > in particular prevents him from recognising as suffering the suffering > called the fruit of merit (S: i.e kusala vipaka) which is fraught with > the > many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he > initiates the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental > formation in order to attain that [very suffering], like one desiring > celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a mountain cliff. > > “Also not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually > produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it > gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds > aforesaid which is the condition for that [suffering], like a moth > falling > into a lamp’s flame, and like one who wants the drop of honey licking > the > honey-smeared knife-edge. Metta, Sarah ===== 31647 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One who dwells in the Dhamma Hi Swee Boon, Each time this sutta is quoted I consider it a little more, thank you: --- nidive wrote: > Hi Group, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html> > "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: *dialogues, > narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous > exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & > answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's > teachings]*. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. > He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This > is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. .... *S: In other words the Dhamma-vinaya or Buddha-vacana consisting of the nine divisions: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakarana, Gaathaa,Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. From the commentary to the vinaya: ‘The word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment,twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first,intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pitakas (Baskets), fivefold according to the Nikayas (Collections), *ninefold according to the Angas(Factors*, and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.’ These were rehearsed at the First Council. > "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, > narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous > exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & > answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's > teachings]. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't > neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquility of > awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. **** B.Bodhi adds a couple of interesting notes on p.298 ‘Numerical Discourses’: 24: “The five sections of V,73 are consistently phrased in terms of ‘he does not apply himself to internal tranquillity of mind’, which stresses tranquillity meditation, while the corresponding sections of V,74, otherwise identical, are phrased in terms of ‘he does not further understand the meaning with wisdom’, which emphasizes insight meditation.” 25: “It is interesting in Text 98 (V,26) the first four items are designated ‘bases of liberation’ and shown to be effective means of attaining arahantship. The difference in the two cases, it seems, is that in the first the monk uses study, teaching, recitation and reflection as aids to personal spiritual development, while here he pursues them as ends in themselves and fails to use them as methods of self-cultivation.” I also checked the following in the PTS transl: a) for ‘internal tranquillity of mind’, it gives ‘to go apar (for meditation)’ [comy: ekiibhaava’n vissajjeti- ??being alone, development, setting free/giving up] b) ‘dwells in dhamma’ [Dhammaviharii] c)V,74 PTS transl gives: “’Monk, consider the monk who masters Dhamma: the sayings, psalms and so forth - but knows not through insight the goal beyond.* Monk, that monk is said to be swift to master, but he does not live by Dhamma.’“ *[Uttari~n c’assa pa~n~naaya atta’n na ppajaanaati. Comy: uttari~n tassa dhammassa......cattaari saccaani na passati] S: In other words, the 4 Noble Truths are not realized in spite of all his knowledge. Obviously, it’s the reverse in the last case. Metta, Sarah ====== 31648 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Victor Discontent - this reminds of Visud on how the temperaments may be recognized by the kinds of state occuring. Chap III 95. By the kind of states occuring: in one of greedy temperament there is frequent occurence of such states as deceit, fraud, pride, evilness of wishes, greatnes of wishes, discontent, foppery and personal vanity. then in para 121 As to suitabliity of temperament: here the exposition should be understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That is to say: first, the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied the body are eleven meditation of subjects suitable for one of greedy temperament. --- Regarding unhappiness - I would simply imply unpleasant feelings, there are only two type of consciouness that arise with unpleasant feelings, that is dosa-mula rooted. It usally follow by other three cetasikas which includes envy, meanness (stingy) and worry. ------ How does one discontent lead to unhappiness? To me that when one is discontent, one cannot fulfilled one's craving, that will mean one do not get what one's wants, leading to lamentation, pain (since these are unpleasant feelings so they are dosa mula rooted) Ken O 31649 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Hi Sarah > .... > S: Whilst I agree with the sentiment and value in studying and > considering the details, I don’t think we should overlook the profundity of the teachings at all. > ***** k: I think you have quoted me out of context which I do not infer that DO is not deep. In fact I think all dhamma are deep. It is for simplicity sake that DO is taught one cause one fruit. The beauty of DO is that, all the Buddha principles are condensed in this teaching, which I summarise from Visud in my earlier mail. Ken O 31650 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > Can the present cetana condition the next dhamma? > Can it condition the next dhamma to be of a kusala nature(action)? > Or of an akusala nature(action)? As part of the citta conditioned, and conditioning. > Can it condition the next dhamma to be permanent? No. Why do you ask? > Can it condition the next dhamma to be "of self"? Not sure what you mean. But Swee Boon, why are you so particularly concerned about cetana? Since we know that the development of kusala of any kind, is in direct ratio to the panna developed, isn't it a mistake to focus on kamma? Why would wanting to have kusala states make it so? From the above I think what you are driving at, is that if one has kusala intentions; this will condition more kusala in the subsequent cittas. I don't think there is any rule in this regard. How did the kusala intention arise in the first place? Was it not right after some akusala? You probably have seen through experience that a kusala intention may have conditioned an act through body or speech, but even before the act was completed, so many other dhammas arose and fell. Seeing, hearing, thinking kusala or akusala, conceit, pleasant and unpleasant feelings and so on. So who is to say, what will this present intention condition? Also, is not much of the kusala, like metta, karuna, mudita, dana, and so on, directed towards the well being of others? Therefore if one is so concerned about one's own kusala, is one at that time thinking about the other? And if it is directed towards the idea of eradicating kilesas, would not this be a moment of satipatthana, hence no idea about `what to do', but just "is"? Sure, wanting to develop more kusala can often immediately follow any moment of kusala, be it satipatthana or other kinds, but would not such an idea be due to wanting kusala for `self'? Does seeing the value of satipatthana necessarily condition more sati? Is it not all about 'understanding' ultimately? Metta, Sukin. 31651 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor, Good to see you back and active;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this message. I think it would be skillful to keep these > eight principles/criteria in mind in recognizing the Dhamma. ... S: Good idea .... > Going through the study guide is one way to get to know these eight > principles such that one can determine for him or herself whether > some qualities one may know are the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the > Teacher's instruction. .... S: For greater clarity, I’ve listed these ‘eight principles’ as you gave, translated in ATI: 1. to passion, not to dispassion; 2 .to being fettered, not to being unfettered; 3. to accumulating, not to shedding; 4. to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; 5. to discontent, not to contentment; 6. to entanglement, not to seclusion; 7. to laziness, not to aroused persistence; 8. to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': Now I’m giving the Pali with the PTS translations in brackets with the same numbering as used above. (Note: I’ve had to guess at some characters as I don’t have any fonts and there is a little confusion at the start): Ye kho tva’n gotamã, dhamme jaaneyyaasi (those things of which you know thus:) ime dhammaa saraagaaya sa’nvattanti no visa’nyogaaya (1: These things lead to passion, not to release therefrom) ???(2: bondage...release)*, aacayaaya sa’nvattanti no apacayaaya(3: piling up -of rebirth-....dispersion)** , mahicchataaya sa’nvattanti no appicchataaya(4:wanting much...wanting little) , asantuññhiyaa sa’nvattanti no santuññhiyaa(5: discontent....contentment). Sa’nga.nikaaya sa’nvattanti no pavivekaaya(6: sociability...solitude) . Kosajjaaya sa’nvattanti no viriyaarambhaaya (7: indolence.....exertion) . Dubharataaya sa’nvattanti no subharataaya (8: luxury...frugality), eka’nsena gotami, dhaareyyaasi neso dhammo neso vinayo neta’n satthusaasananti. * I’m not sure if 1) and 2) are combined or if 2) is missing in this Pali I’m using or if I’m going cross-eyed;-). **Nina wrote: >I looked up the co: These things lead to passion, not to release, etc. the piling up of rebirth not to the dispersion thereof... Piling up, Pali aacaaya: this is another word for accumulation. The Co says that the Buddha explained the continuation of the cycle, and also the end of the cycle. This is all in the sutta, but as often is the case, the Co gives us an extra reminder. The Gotamid attained arahatship by this exhortation. We are reminded that what we learn is not theoretical, it should be verified right now. Actually here is taught in short the Dependent Origination and the reverse. So long as there are ignorance and clinging the cycle continue. Gotamid could eradicate all ignorance by right understanding.< ***** I hope this is of some help for comparison of terms in other texts and further reflection on the meanings. Metta, Sarah ======= 31652 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Hi Ken O, I mainly addressed the post to you (and everyone) because I thought you would appreciate the quotes and also because of an earlier comment you had made suggesting we might have finished with ignorance and could move on;-) It wasn't meant to suggest that you inferred DO is NOT deep, but I think we can never stress enough how deep it is;-) --- Ken O wrote: > > ***** > > k: I think you have quoted me out of context which I do not infer > that DO is not deep. In fact I think all dhamma are deep. It is > for simplicity sake that DO is taught one cause one fruit. The > beauty of DO is that, all the Buddha principles are condensed in this > teaching, which I summarise from Visud in my earlier mail. .... I'm appreciating your quotes and summaries and look forward to more. Apologies for any misunderstanding or for taking your name and quote out of context. Metta, Sarah ===== 31653 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > In passage § 4.2. we can see the quality of modesty in Sumana, who > is Ven. Anuruddha's novice. ... In the Gotamid sutta, modesty (no appiccataaya) refers to modesty as in ‘wanting little’ or ‘easily satisfied’, so I’m not sure it’s the same quality as is being stressed in this verse. Of course, Sumana being an arahant would have neither wants or conceits of any kind. The commentary (PTS transl) is quite short and certainly the very young Sumana’s qualities and accumulations were very, very special(!!), so let me share it here: “Reborn in this Buddha-age he took birth in the family of a certain lay-disciple who had become the lay-attendant of the venerable Thera Anuruddha. Now that layman’s children till then had died young. And the father said: ‘If yet one more son is born to me, I will have him ordained by the Thera. After ten months a healthy boy was born to him, and accordingly, when the child was seven years old, he was ordained. And from the ripeness of his insight, it was not long before he acquired sixfold abhi~n~naa, waiting the while upon the Thera. Taking a jar to fetch him water, Sumana through iddhi-power came to Anotatta Lake. And a wicked serpent-king, coiled about the lake, reared its great hood aloft and would not suffer him to get water. Then Sumana took the shape of a garuda-bird and overcame the serpent, and flew back with the water to the Thera. And the Master, seated in Jeta Grove, saw him as he went, and called Saariputta to see, praising him in the four verses below.” Sumana added those verses to the first few lines of his own. >[Thag VI.10] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty Metta, Sarah ===== 31654 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dear Abbydhamma - Fear of poverty Hi Sarah. Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. It's not the right time to respond properly now but I have printed out your post and will be reading it together with Christine's. I am very grateful to have such good dhamma friends. Truly grateful. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Penniless in Samsara;-), > > I'd also like to join the bandwagon, ignore your retraction and add > comments on the important issues you raise in this post. I'm glad to see > that Chris and Nina have already given lots of good advice and sutta > references. 31655 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:52am Subject: typo - Re: [dsg] Lost on 'The Road to a Goblin City'?? Hi All, I did go cross-eyed and skip a line in this quote. I've added the missing line below. Now what I need is some kind of automatic ruler which keeps the place as I type. Metta, Sarah --- Sarah wrote: > “ ‘The Dependent Arising is so deep and appears so deep...’ > > Comy: Being deep, it appears deep. For something (a body of water) > might > be shallow yet appear deep, like stagnant water having a dark colour > because of rotting leaves, etc; this might be only knee-deep, yet appear *to be a hundred fathoms. Another body of water might be deep yet appear* > shallow, like the serene water of the Jewel River, which is a hundred > fathoms deep yet seems to be knwee-deep. Other water might be shallow > and > appear shallow, like the water in a pot, etc. And still other water > might > be deep and appear deep, like the water in the ocean at the foot of > Mount > Sineru. Thus water can be described in four ways. 31656 From: hasituppada Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: On Control Dear Swee Boon, If that was your interpretation you sould have said so. I do not know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in the use of words in interpreting Pali texts. "Control" has a different conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, ignore, leave out, have the implication of someone arranging or ordering things. One can ofcourse discuss whether your interpretation is correct or wrong. That would not be discussing the Sutta With regard to meditation, these words have no meaning. When a thought arises in the mind, what ever the "quality" of the thought, you merely become aware of the thought without reacting to it. There is no suppressing, ignoring, controlling or stopping. If the same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to remove it". When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention that is necessary. with metta, Hasituppada. __________________________________________________________________ Hi Hasituppada & Howard, If you had read the suttas, you would know that that was my interpretation. I assume that you would have read the sutta. That's why I always put the link to it. In any case, this is my thinking on the issue of "no control". The view of "no control" is nothing more than another form of atta view. Regards, Swee Boon 31657 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:41am Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, If something conditions another thing, the former is exerting "influence" over the latter. Or, if A conditions B, A is exerting "influence" over B. I think this is a very simple logic to understand and there isn't any need to complicate further. Regards, Swee Boon 31658 From: Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - There is little useful that I ccan add in the following. I think our positions may be closer than expected at first glance, but I don't think they are the same. Let me say just a drop here, and I wil lalso add a commentor two later in your post. My ordinary experiencing at any time seems to be a twofold process consisting of the knowing of a known through a medium. While the knowing never occurs without the known, and vice versa, each seems to be an item of its own, facing or abutting the other. The knowing is the "subject" and the known is the "object". It is like a searchlight falling upon an object. It is like the holding of an object in one's hand. It is like a person facing a wall. In every case there seem to be two things relating to each other, and in the case of experience, a subject grasping an object. During my "no-subject-no-object experience," this was not at all the case. There was no relation among two things or processes. There was one process, a flow of experience, not divided into knowing and known, not divided into subjective and objective aspects. That single process was content, and presence, and illumination (not blindness), and aliveness, but there just was no subject-object split to it. There were, indeed, sights, sounds, feelings, thoughts, etc, but they were not events held by knowing. There was no separate knowing - these were just present. If there was any imbalance to the experience at all, I would say there was a leaning towards the objective pole. But I suspect that this was just a seeming due to the great unfamiliarity of there being no sense of subject. I will add only a comment or two, in context, below. In a message dated 3/23/04 2:30:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > S:On ‘objects’ contd: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote:> > -------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Okay, then. We are not using the word in exactly the same way. I > >definitely accept that there is always content to experience, of various > >sorts. I > >take 'object', however, as indicating something facing a "subject" and > >being > >apprehended dualistically by that subject. That is the way our > >experience > >usually appears. > .... > S:(btw, somewhere there was a typo in what I wrote - a ’d’ > added in error to ‘experience’, in case you were doubly confused). > > This was what I suspected (i.e different definitions), because in your > other posts when you refer to what is seen, as opposed to conceived etc, > we’re very much on the same page and this is probably why you were so > understandably agitated by my comment. > > If I can try to paraphrase (and find some agreement) with what you’ve > written here: ‘While there is an idea of self or a ‘subject’ experiencing, > there will always be the idea of ‘things’ or ‘objects’ experienced. That > is the way our experience usually appears.’ > Can we also agree that in truth ‘there are only ever ‘experiences’ or > ‘experiencing’ of various phenomena, whether they be actualities or > concepts of actulalities or concepts of non-actualities.’??? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we can - but there are fine nuances that can be missed in using even the very same phrasing. When we say "experiences" or "experience" that may focus on content as objects, it may focus on an isolated function of knowing, or it may have a neutral, nondual, sense. This ambiguity of sense applies even when we say "experiencing," with the meaning there varying between a subjective sense and a neutral one. ---------------------------------------------- > ..... > > Howard: >There is, indeed, content of visual, auditory etc > >experience. In > >fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content. > >If that > >is what is meant by arammana, then I believe in it! > .... > S: I think we’re making some progress. Now arammana includes the object > (content?) of visual, auditory etc experience. Also, it includes all mind > objects whether these be namas, rupas (actualities or paramattha dhammas) > or concepts (pa~n~natti. When you say that ‘In > fact, experience is nothing more than presence of experiential content’, > are you still distinguishing between say visual consciousness and > object/content of it? In other words, whilst there can only ever be the > experiencing or knowing of one reality/actuality at a time, the clear > distinction must be apparent. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No. My sense here is different. I see the apparent subject-object, "normal" experience of us worldlings to be a kind of infected experience, but without our realizing for the most part that it is infected. This, I believe, is why, at least in part, it is important that we examine that experience carefully so that we come to be clear about the subject-object split. Our regular experience does have that split, and it is a basis for continued belief in a knowing self. Under some circumstances, it seems to be possible to temporarily suppress the sense of experience split into self and other, and that seems to be an opportunity to glimpse "a different reality". ----------------------------------------------------- > .... > Howard: >But if there is the > >additional sense of it being a thing apprehended by a separate knowing, > >then > >'arammana' means what I call an "object" grasped by a knowing "subject". > .... > S: As soon as there is the idea of a ‘thing’, then perhaps we agree that > wrong view is involved, with your definitions of ‘subject’ and ‘object’. > In this case we’re in agreement (momentarily of course;-)). This doesn’t > mean that everytime a concept is the arammana, that there is this wrong > view at all. Usually, there’s just plain ignorance. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we agree about "things," but I think the issue here is a different one. -------------------------------------------------- > .... > Howard: > >My > >experience consisted in a disappearence of knowing separate from and > >facing a known. > >That mode of experience *was* experiencing, but there was neither > >subject nor > >object, neither separate nor identical - there was just the experience. > .... > S: If we refer to a moment of pa~n~naa now, simply the characteristic of a > nama or rupa appears *just as it is*. For example, if seeing consciousness > is the object (arammana) of panna, it’s nature of seeing experience > without any idea of self or subject is apparent. If visible object is the > arammana, it’s nature of being seen or visual content is known and then > gone. Are we on the same train here? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: More like being in different trains, but on the same track. Hopefully we are not going in opposite directions on that track! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > Howard: > >The > >content was present, no different than it usually is - sights, sounds, > >etc all the > >same, and yet, at the same time, the experience was radically different. > >---------------------------------------------------------- > S: I think in the beginning that moments of satipatthana are so brief as > we’ve said many times (same tune and I loved Sukin’s variations on the > theme;-)),and there are bound to be uncertainties and thinking and > wondering about what an experience might have been. Gradually, I think as > understanding increases, there’s less uncertainty and less attempt to try > and trace the past experiences, but of course this is very natural and > even these kinds of thinking can be known for what they are too. > .... > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is experienced as the content of the experience. I could say > >that > >it is "self-experiencing," except that such terminology is literally > >false and > >is misleading. It still suggests a connecting of two things, but the two > >now > >being coalesced into one - a reflexive knowing. But it is *not* > >reflexive. > >-------------------------------------------------- > S: I erased my part too quickly. I think this was on duality/non-duality > which I don’t find very helpful. I’m concerned about this ‘coalesced into > one’ and whether namas and rupas are still clearly distinguished or > somehow blurred together in the experience as I understand (or quite > likely misunderstand) your explanation. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Look at my disclaimers. There is really no coalescing, no unity of opposites, and no reflexive knowing. Nondual experience is radically different, and none of the analogies one might try to apply work. ------------------------------------------------------- > .... > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I wouldn't make a claim about an "enlightenment experience". That > > > >would be way too grandiose. An enlightenment experience would be an > >awakening, a > >glimpse of nibbana, a taste of freedom. How my "insight experience" > >should be > >characterized I can't say, and what it might have led to I can't say. > >Unfortunately, it terrified me, and I ran away from it. (But still it > >was beneficial.) > >-------------------------------------------------- > S: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean ‘enlightening’ in the grandiose sense with a > capital E. As I suggested before, I think we all have special experiences > and poignant moments which we cling to and can’t help dwelling on, but we > have to let them go, otherwise we just accumulate more strong lobha. I > mentioned the example of letting go of ‘the voices’ or the fantasies for > some. For others it may be the ‘sunsets’ or ‘beauty’ of nature, whilst for > others a ‘near-death’ experience or great trauma experienced. For others > still, it may be a ‘meditative experience’, an ‘insight’ or ‘flash of > wisdom’. In all these cases the problem or benefit or experience is long > gone, but the danger is in the present attachment or ma~n~nati (thinks in > a distorted way) as referred to in the Kalaka sutta and discussed in > detail in the Mulapariyaya sutta as I see it, of course. > .... > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I think there is some value in remembering what the experience > >was > >like, though the quality of such memory degrades quickly . But > >heightened > >attention to and mindfulness of current experience, *current* experience > >being all > >there ever is, is certainly of primary importance. > >----------------------------------------------------- > S: I’m glad we agree on this. The former can only be thinking (usually > distorted and usually with attachment to *my* experience)as I suggested we > all do, hopefully not treading on an egg-shell;-) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are correct. The thinking back becomes more and more faulty the more remote the event. Thinking and concept replace actual experience, the life is taken out of the experience, and it is turned into a dead remnant. And, yes, it can become "my exprience," and then it becomes nothing but a stagnation point. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31659 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:00am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > > Can the present cetana condition the next dhamma? > > > Can it condition the next dhamma to be of a kusala nature(action)? > > Or of an akusala nature(action)? > > As part of the citta conditioned, and conditioning. > > > Can it condition the next dhamma to be permanent? > > No. Why do you ask? If this is the case, then I don't think there is any contradiction on my part. I have asked you if it is possible to strive without self-identity view. I don't think you have given me a straight forward answer. Now a straight forward answer would be: Yes, it is possible to strive without self-identity view. How? By making good effort in practicing mindfulness immersed in the body and not assuming the five aggregates to be the self, or the self as possessing the five aggregates, or the five aggregates as in the self or the self as in the five aggregates. This, I think is the method the Buddha used to achieve Enlightenment. By using the 4th jhana as the basis for his mindfulness immersed in the body, and not assuming any self-identity with regards to the five aggregates, he penetrated to the right knowledge of anatta. Regards, Swee Boon 31660 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear Larry: > L: Just "Hebrew" is most common, but they all are acceptable. How are > the group dynamics in Brazil, loose or compact? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mathematically speaking, Brazil has got some group compactivity: all series belonging such groups converge, say Mazel Tov one each other and etc. Socially...gosh! City of Gods is only a pale example of the real chaos here in Rio! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No doubt both tasty and > colorful! Can you touch, taste, smell, see, and eat the sky? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep! You can taste and smell and feel the Blue Sky, mainly with a good dose of Sulphuric H2SO4 soluted on atmosphere...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro (Mathematics is not one of my interests, dear Larry!) 31661 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:54am Subject: Re: groups (kalapa) Dear Sarah: .> > We had some discussions a while back on the 3rd stage of insight > (sammasana-~naa.na), the knowledge of groups such as the kalapas of rupas. > At this stage the developed panna fully understands the succeeding namas > and rupas arising and falling away (in repeated series of javana cittas), > not by thinking but by many moments of direct understanding of those namas > and rupas appearing. This is how it's possible for the knowledge of groups > to be known, even though only one object at a time ever appears. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- At this point of reasoning one must be careful in not confounding the spacemarks of this matter. I just replied a Larry's post about groups, at which he said about Compactivity or loosely proprieties of groups, Dynamic groups and so on... all this group of Rupas structures remind me so much such patterns on hebrew grammar, how about all words on "Yfriit" are derived from verbal forms belonging to certain determined grammatical families, like groups of Rupas that arise and decay in series of javana cittas. Right: you can trace such similarities on any language ground at many of these issues..but I would like say to Larry that Mathematics are Off-Topic on these debate. If you could said so, as Larry, I could reply that all these groups are assembled by series that converge, say mazel tov one each other and depart as well comported groups of Rupas from these world to Cubik-land!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Are we on the same train here, Larry??? Please help us if not. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Serious! It seems to me that Larry wants to stand a linkage between group of Rupas and Mathematics. I am not interested! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Apologies if I've butted in and said too much. I'll gratefully accept a > 'quid?, quad?, quomodo?? or even Quasimodo response from Icaro too;- ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Quasimodo... Quasi-mode...It's necessary to be a genius like Buddhaghosa to extract honey of all these unpromising grammatical flowers! Mettaya, Ícaro 31662 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:09am Subject: Re: On Control Hi Hasituppada, > I do not know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in > the use of words in interpreting Pali texts. As far as I am concerned, control == volition == fabrications. > "Control" has a different conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, > ignore, leave out, have the implication of someone arranging or > ordering things. I think most English verbs have the implication of someone doing something anyway. > One can of course discuss whether your interpretation is correct > or wrong. That would not be discussing the Sutta. How would that not be discussing the Sutta? Expressing my interpretation of it is just one way of discussing about it. Refuting my interpretation is another way of discussing about it. > If the same thought comes over and over again you let in another > thought, "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of > another to remove it". Well, isn't the decision to let in another thought a form of control? Isn't there volition involved? > When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger > and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go > beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention > that is necessary. Just how do you become "aware"? Other than having made the decision to be aware in the first place. But you are most likely right that trying to suppress a thought will make it worse. However, I think this is because this makes the mind even more agitated. When you try to control the arising of that thought, that thought does not fade into the background. Instead, it comes to the foreground! Regards, Swee Boon 31663 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control HI Swee Boon Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. Condition is not influence. Just like gravity, there is no influence on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, it is just simply the rule. Dont mixed condition as influence. They are just processes. Ken O 31664 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Victor Sorry to take so long to answer this question because I always must wait for some inspiration before I answer a very knotty question. I think I used the word control here very unwisely. I apologise. We cannot control things because we cannot let my form be thus, let my form not be thus. Mindfullness is always consider as the Guardian of the mind. When I used the mindfullnes here, it is in context of satipatthana (mindfullness + insight), it is not just plain mindfullness. To me plain mindfullness is useless because a child when learning how to walk will be very mindfull on his first step. When mindfullness arise, the nature of dhamma is understood as anatta and anicca, then dhamma is considered as fleeting, there is no point in indulging in them, the senses is natrrally restraint. There isn't a need to purposely stop oneself because when mindfullness arise, when it see the danger or the suffering of dhammas, it will automaticaly put a brake. However, mindfullness will not develop or grow by itself or come out of thin air. Mindfullness is very slowly developed by considering of dhamma, reflecting, listening, reading dhamma. I wrote this to someone before, how one practise mindfullness or conditioned mindfullness to grow. "Another practical is you are attracted to a pleasant song, or you are hearing insulting words, if you intellectually reflect, that sound, ear, sound consciouness, sound contact are all emtpy of a self. Since contact is empty of a self, so does pleasant or unpleasant feeling that arise with the contact as indispensible condition is also empty. That is called practising. It is in every moment of our lives, even while you are looking at this email or touching a keyboard if there is reflection on empty of a self on these sense process, it is already practising dhamma ;-) No one can escape the onslaught of the sense when one is alert, so they are the best mean for our practise. So next time dont just do toiletering, remember them as empty of a self - toiletering has become dhamma practise. Cheers" Ken O 31665 From: Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 3/23/04 11:49:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > HI Swee Boon > > Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. > Condition is not influence. Just like gravity, there is no influence > on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, > it is just simply the rule. Dont mixed condition as influence. They > are just processes. > > > Ken O > ======================== I'm not certain of what you mean, but in one way of understanding you, I do agree. When it is said that one event is condition for another, all that actually means is that reliably, "lawfully," and objectively, whenever condition A (along with other needed conditions) occurs, also condition B arises. Such conditionality does not presuppose some substantial, hidden, "causal power" that resides in the first condition or that connects the two. Conditionality is mere "When this arises, that arises. And without this, not that." You may be taking the word 'influence' to suggest an underlying "causal power," and I agree there is no reason to presume such. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31666 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: HI Htoo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I hope you saw my last note to you on final preparations of equipment.Hope it wasn't TOO picky;-)Apologies if so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think apologies are needed between you and me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I've appreciated some of your recent installments, but a few comments here as it touches on ayatanas (sense bases) which we discussed before: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know that. This time I might have made mistake again because I was just leaving and I wrote it in a hurry. I have been away and I left internet. But I replied a person mail regaring file. It is OK and I will try it later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, >Soon after the sound ( song of dove ) disappears, there left thought after thought. Some thoughts are directed to the possible dove and some thoughts are directed to signs associated with the dove like 'peace'. >These thoughts are objects. They are thought-sense-base. This means that these thoughts are the base for arising of mind-consciousness or intellect-consciousness. The thoughts are dhammaarammana and they are mind objects. As they are base for mind-consciousness, it is called dhamma-ayatana or thought-sense-base. .... S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects (arammana)of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense bases). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will be grateful if you explain this further. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Dhamma-ayatana consist of subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana as we agreed. Perhaps I misundestand you here. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please do not misunderstand me. As I stated above, I made a mistake. Yes, we agreed this once in our discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > These thoughts are known because they are being attended. This means that the attending mind is the base for arising of mind-consciousness. The attending mind is mano. As it is a base for mind-consciousness, it is called manaayatana or mind-sense-base. > There are dhammaayatana ( the thoughts ) and manaayatana ( the mind ). .... S: Not quite. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May be. What is manayatana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >The attention supports the thought to reach to conscious level . As these matters are already attended with full understanding, .... S: The point, I think, is that full understanding can only know paramattha dhammas as we always agree, not thoughts which you agree above are concepts. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But concepts can be known by paramattha dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. >They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. >As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. >No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. ... S: Excellent, especially the last lines at the ends of your posts now;-);-)Imho, they're getting better all the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. This is because I have been learning. From you and other members of your list, and members of other lists including my own lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: On another thread, you asked Swee Boon what the six higher knowledges in a translation were referring to. As I understand, these always refer to the 6 abhi~n~na (higher or supernormal knowledges). There was some discussion between you and someone else on these. As I understand only those who have attained all 5 jhanas and arahantship can exceptionally (or I should say could during the Buddha's time and for a while afterwards)have these abhi~n~naa. For details, see Nyantiloka: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Swee Boon used simple English. So I did not get it when I saw that message. If it is said as Abhinna from the start, I would have known what he meant. Thanks for your reply without which I would have been travelling alone. With Metta, Htoo Naing > ===== > > 31667 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: charact. of rupas, no 1. Dear Nina, Could you please explain the relationship between temperature and rupa? Is utu exactly temperature? Is sound the effect of temperature? I will be looking forward to hearing from you. With due respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: charact. of rupas, no 1. Characteristics inherent in all Rúpas Rúpas do not arise singly, they arise in different groups (kalåpas). The different groups of rúpa which arise do not fall away immediately. A sabhåva rúpa, a rúpa with its own distinct nature of characteristic lasts as long as the duration of seventeen cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another. With regard to the arising and falling away of rúpa, four different aspects can be discerned which have been classified as four lakkhana rúpas (lakkhana means characteristic): 31668 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yuganaddha Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Htoo and Swee Boon Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III, 100, I have checked the 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' translation of the Pansadhovaka Sutta ('Refinement of the Mind' -- see relevant part copied below). I have found the following that may be of interest: 1. A footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the Pali terms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks a lot for your kind footnotes. Htoo 31669 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Dear Sarah, Larry, Howard and all, op 23-03-2004 05:57 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > to Larry: I think you touch on many very subtle and difficult areas and do us all a > big favour by encouraging Nina’s and others’ explanations, even if (like > in my discussion with Howard) we’re travelling on different trains for a > while. N: Yes, Larry should not erase his remarks. I miss it when he does so. Sarah: What is seen now (visually) with complete ignorance is just the > same as that which is seen with wisdom. What I mean to say is that it's > never a question of ever seeing visible objects any differently from how > we've ever seen them. > So we don't suddently start seeing blank sheets or colours, but we > continue to see 'everything' we've always seen and then identified. > Gradually, however, the characteristics of 'seeing', 'visible object', > 'recognizing', 'thinking' and so on are known for what they are. N: We are inclined to make visible object into something else, whereas it is just what appears through eyesense. But discussing seeing and visible object are helpful so that our theoretical understanding is correct and also there are conditions to consider it more often. When insight is developed in stages, the objects are always the same: just ordinary nama and rupa that appear now through the six doors. The only difference is: understanding which realizes them is growing. This morning I wrote about a gem of a sutta: the Bhaddaji Sutta Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch 17, § 10). We read that Ånanda, when he was dwelling near Kosambí, in Ghosita Park, asked Bhaddaji: ³Good Bhaddaji, what is the best of sights, what the best of sounds, what the best of joys, what the best of conscious states, and what the best of of becomings?² InBgk I was attending a sutta session when you had a breakfast meeting with friends at the riverside in your hotel and I was absent! Sorry Ken O! To compensate, I am writing now and you will read it in due time. The best of sights is when the cankers are destroyed.. The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Manorathapúraní, explains that arahatship can be attained immediately after seeing, no matter whether a desirable or undesirable object is seen. It explains that when the monk has seen visible object through the eyes, he begins to apply insight and that the attainment of arahatship can be said to arise consecutively after seeing. It states that it is the same in the case of hearing. Sarah wrote: little like coming round in a circle after following various wrong views > to find that daily life is just as it's always been...> We try to see more into visible object than there is. When walking over our persian rugs with many patterns, I mostly do not focus on these, but my eyes are open and there is seeing. I see all that appears through the eyes. Seeing is a reality, a dhamma that appears. Ignorance does not know that it is dhamma. Of course ignorance follows upon seeing very often. Seeing is an element different from other elements. Its only task is seeing. It is dhamma and this means: it has no owner and arises because of its own conditions. Nobody can make it arise. A. Sujin said many times: the objects of satipatthana are very ordinary (pokketi, thammada), and therefore so difficult for us. Because of attachment we make it so difficult. I completely agree with Howard's definition of volition or effort, etc. Here is no problem, volition is conditioned. But when the lobha comes in now, at this moment, there is our problem. For us worldlings there always is an underlying notion of self who can do this or that. The danger is even greater when we are ignorant of our lobha. Lobha always wants us to do something else but attending to the present moment. I just heard on MP3 that delay is dangerous; we can die now, after seeing, when laughing, eating or in the middle of a conversation (it happened to a friend). Why wait for another time or go first to another place? Seeing is vi~n~naa.na. There were some discussions about this term. The following is from the different meanings of dhamma (I wrote about before), explained by the Saddaniti. The word dhamma has many meanings and one of them is object. I quote: This passage occurs for example in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, XXXV, 107, Loko: the world). The words citta, mano and vi~n~naa.na are the same in meaning, they are the paramattha dhamma that is citta, consciousness. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (II, Nidaana-sa.myutta, Ch VII, 61: However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used. Mano can stand for mano-dhaatu, mind element, and this includes the citta which is the mind-door (life-continuum, bhavangacitta). Nina. 31670 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control Dear Ken O > > Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. > Condition is not influence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact. In propositional Logic we get terms as A -R- B, where A and b are concepts, ideas, logical entities, Dhammas, etc, and -R- are the relationships between them. But Jon had stated rightly on: there are only A and B as real entities, real Dhammas, -R- is only a mind concept. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Just like gravity, there is no influence > on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, > it is just simply the rule. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, if you get a mass load that distortes space-time around it, as the Einstein's General Relativity theory, you get a rule over this freame, and not a "Force" that comples apples, grapefruits, nuts and Cocoas from trees to ground, or better, you assign A SPECIFIC METRIC on space-time framework. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont mixed condition as influence. They > are just processes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact. Mettaya, Ícaro (Baccaurelate, Master of Science and Air Force lieutennat-Engineer) > > > Ken O 31671 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control Dear Ken O > Dont mixed up just because A condition B, A got an influence in B. > Condition is not influence. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact. Jon stated in some posts that a proposition like A -R- B (-R- is any relationship between propositions or groups or logical entities or Dhammas)lies on basic falacious reasonings, because only dhammas have got real existence. What have you got as real ? Only A and B. The -R- between them is only a concept. The Hon. Bertrand Russell said the same with their famous logical problem about "Scott is the Waverley's author". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Just like gravity, there is no influence > on gravity to make an apple to fall down from a tree to the ground, > it is just simply the rule. --------------------------------------------------------------------- If you state that the mass load of Earth dictates a rule on all surrounding space-time frame ( as Einstein's General Relativity Theory), or, scientifically speaking, stipulates A METRIC on it...yes. that's no "Force" that atracts apples, grapefruits, nuts and Cocoa from tree to ground at last end. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont mixed condition as influence. They > are just processes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Only a matter of rule! Mettaya, Ícaro ( Baccaurelate and Master of Sciences...and after, the PhD!!!) 31672 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Control(Typo) So much work here at office!!! > > Yes, if you get a mass load that distortes space-time around it, > as the Einstein's General Relativity theory, you get a rule over this > freame, and not a "Force" that comples ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Frame Compels (Ah... I hope cleaning out all these typos when reach Nibbana!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 31673 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Hi Sarah, Thank you for this post. It got me into doing some research on the pali original for the word 'modesty'/'modest' in the translation by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The pali original is 'appicchata'/'appiccha'. The definitions given in Pali English Dictionary is as following: Appicchata (p. 57) (f.) [abstr. fr. prec.] contentment, being satisfied with little, unostentatiousness Vin iii.21; D iii.115; M i.13; S ii 202, 208 sq.; A i.12, 16 sq.; iii.219 sq., 448; iv.218, 280 (opp. mahicchata) Appiccha (p. 57) (adj.) [appa + iccha from is, cp. iccha] desiring little or nothing, easily satisfied, unassuming, contented, unpretentious The discourse Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html might give us some idea about what it means by 'appicchata' In Anuruddha Sutta, the thoughts arose in Ven. Anuruddha's awareness, and the Buddha characterized them as the thoughts of a great person: "Good, Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts of a great person: The first of these thoughts of a great person is: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' In Pali original: Appicchassayam dhammo nàyam dhammo mahicchassa In the following passage (passage § 4.1.) , the Buddha further explained with reference to what 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing' was said: "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. The translation of 'appicchata'/'appiccha'[and it's variance] as 'modesty'/'modest' agrees with the meaning of 'unostentatiousness,' 'unassuming,' 'unpretentious' as given in the Pali English Dictionary. It also agrees with the explanation in the passage above. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > > In passage § 4.2. we can see the quality of modesty in Sumana, who > > is Ven. Anuruddha's novice. > ... > In the Gotamid sutta, modesty (no appiccataaya) refers to modesty as in > `wanting little' or `easily satisfied', so I'm not sure it's the same > quality as is being stressed in this verse. Of course, Sumana being an > arahant would have neither wants or conceits of any kind. > > The commentary (PTS transl) is quite short and certainly the very young > Sumana's qualities and accumulations were very, very special(!!), so let > me share it here: > > "Reborn in this Buddha-age he took birth in the family of a certain > lay-disciple who had become the lay-attendant of the venerable Thera > Anuruddha. Now that layman's children till then had died young. And the > father said: `If yet one more son is born to me, I will have him ordained > by the Thera. After ten months a healthy boy was born to him, and > accordingly, when the child was seven years old, he was ordained. And from > the ripeness of his insight, it was not long before he acquired sixfold > abhi~n~naa, waiting the while upon the Thera. Taking a jar to fetch him > water, Sumana through iddhi-power came to Anotatta Lake. And a wicked > serpent-king, coiled about the lake, reared its great hood aloft and would > not suffer him to get water. Then Sumana took the shape of a garuda-bird > and overcame the serpent, and flew back with the water to the Thera. And > the Master, seated in Jeta Grove, saw him as he went, and called > Saariputta to see, praising him in the four verses below." > > Sumana added those verses to the first few lines of his own. > > >[Thag VI.10] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty > > Metta, > > Sarah 31674 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:13pm Subject: [dsg]_Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_1._Dispassion_(§_1.4,_§_1.5.) Hi Ken O, Thank you, Ken, for your reply. I don't think you need to apologise for what you wrote in this thread. In the message #30595, you wrote that There are quite a number of sutta on keep control of faculties. Could you provide some reference on these suttas? What are the qualities of mindfulness that one would recognize as the Teacher's instruction? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Victor > > Sorry to take so long to answer this question because I always must > wait for some inspiration before I answer a very knotty question. I > think I used the word control here very unwisely. I apologise. We > cannot control things because we cannot let my form be thus, let my > form not be thus. > > Mindfullness is always consider as the Guardian of the mind. When I > used the mindfullnes here, it is in context of satipatthana > (mindfullness + insight), it is not just plain mindfullness. To me > plain mindfullness is useless because a child when learning how to > walk will be very mindfull on his first step. When mindfullness > arise, the nature of dhamma is understood as anatta and anicca, then > dhamma is considered as fleeting, there is no point in indulging in > them, the senses is natrrally restraint. There isn't a need to > purposely stop oneself because when mindfullness arise, when it see > the danger or the suffering of dhammas, it will automaticaly put a > brake. > > However, mindfullness will not develop or grow by itself or come out > of thin air. Mindfullness is very slowly developed by considering of > dhamma, reflecting, listening, reading dhamma. I wrote this to > someone before, how one practise mindfullness or conditioned > mindfullness to grow. > > "Another practical is you are attracted to a pleasant song, or you > are hearing insulting words, if you intellectually reflect, that > sound, ear, sound consciouness, sound contact are all emtpy of a > self. Since contact is empty of a self, so does pleasant or > unpleasant feeling that arise with the contact as indispensible > condition is also empty. That is called practising. It is in every > moment of our lives, even while you are looking at this email or > touching a keyboard if there is reflection on empty of a self on > these sense process, it is already practising dhamma ;-) No one can > escape the onslaught of the sense when one is alert, so they are the > best mean for our practise. So next time dont just do toiletering, > remember them as empty of a self - toiletering has become dhamma > practise. Cheers" > > > Ken O 31675 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thank you for this message. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Good to see you back and active;-) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thanks for this message. I think it would be skillful to keep these > > eight principles/criteria in mind in recognizing the Dhamma. > ... > S: Good idea > .... > > Going through the study guide is one way to get to know these eight > > principles such that one can determine for him or herself whether > > some qualities one may know are the Dhamma, the Vinaya, the > > Teacher's instruction. > .... > S: For greater clarity, I've listed these `eight principles' as you gave, > translated in ATI: > > 1. to passion, not to dispassion; > 2 .to being fettered, not to being unfettered; > 3. to accumulating, not to shedding; > 4. to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; > 5. to discontent, not to contentment; > 6. to entanglement, not to seclusion; > 7. to laziness, not to aroused persistence; > 8. to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': > > Now I'm giving the Pali with the PTS translations in brackets with the > same numbering as used above. (Note: I've had to guess at some characters > as I don't have any fonts and there is a little confusion at the start): > > Ye kho tva'n gotamã, dhamme jaaneyyaasi (those things of which you know > thus:) ime dhammaa saraagaaya sa'nvattanti no visa'nyogaaya (1: These > things lead to passion, not to release therefrom) ???(2: > bondage...release)*, aacayaaya sa'nvattanti no apacayaaya(3: piling up -of > rebirth-....dispersion)** , mahicchataaya sa'nvattanti no > appicchataaya(4:wanting much...wanting little) , asantuññhiyaa > sa'nvattanti no santuññhiyaa(5: discontent....contentment). Sa'nga.nikaaya > sa'nvattanti no pavivekaaya(6: sociability...solitude) . Kosajjaaya > sa'nvattanti no viriyaarambhaaya (7: indolence.....exertion) . > Dubharataaya sa'nvattanti no subharataaya (8: luxury...frugality), > eka'nsena gotami, dhaareyyaasi neso dhammo neso vinayo neta'n > satthusaasananti. > > * I'm not sure if 1) and 2) are combined or if 2) is missing in this Pali > I'm using or if I'm going cross-eyed;-). > > **Nina wrote: >I looked up the co: These things lead to passion, not to > release, etc. the piling up of rebirth not to the dispersion thereof... > Piling up, Pali aacaaya: this is another word for accumulation. The Co > says that the Buddha explained the continuation of the cycle, and also the > end of the cycle. This is all in the sutta, but as often is the case, the > Co gives us an extra reminder. The Gotamid attained arahatship by this > exhortation. > We are reminded that what we learn is not theoretical, it should be > verified right now. Actually here is taught in short the Dependent > Origination and the reverse. So long as there are ignorance and clinging > the cycle continue. Gotamid could eradicate all ignorance by right > understanding.< > ***** > I hope this is of some help for comparison of terms in other texts and > further reflection on the meanings. > > Metta, > > Sarah 31676 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.4.) § 5.4. MahaKassapa: Coming down from my dwelling place, I entered the city for alms, stood courteously next to a leper eating his meal. He, with his rotting hand, tossed me a morsel of food, and as the morsel was dropping, a finger fell off right there. Sitting next to a wall, I ate that morsel of food, and neither while eating it, nor having eaten, did I feel any disgust. Whoever has mastered left-over scraps for food, smelly urine for medicine, the foot of a tree for a dwelling, cast-off rags for robes: He is a man of the four directions. * * * This is enough for me -- desiring to do jhana, resolute, mindful; enough for me -- desiring the goal, resolute, a monk; enough for me -- desiring comfort, resolute, in training; enough for me -- desiring my duty, resolute, Such. * * * There is no such pleasure for me in the music of a five-piece band as there is when my mind is at one, seeing the Dhamma aright. [Thag XVIII] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/theragatha/thag18 .html 31677 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Ken O, Thank you for this message. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Victor > > Discontent - this reminds of Visud on how the temperaments may be > recognized by the kinds of state occuring. > > Chap III 95. By the kind of states occuring: in one of greedy > temperament there is frequent occurence of such states as deceit, > fraud, pride, evilness of wishes, greatnes of wishes, discontent, > foppery and personal vanity. > > then in para 121 > > As to suitabliity of temperament: here the exposition should be > understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That > is to say: first, the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied > the body are eleven meditation of subjects suitable for one of greedy > temperament. > --- > > Regarding unhappiness - I would simply imply unpleasant feelings, > there are only two type of consciouness that arise with unpleasant > feelings, that is dosa-mula rooted. It usally follow by other three > cetasikas which includes envy, meanness (stingy) and worry. > > ------ > How does one discontent lead to unhappiness? To me that when one is > discontent, one cannot fulfilled one's craving, that will mean one do > not get what one's wants, leading to lamentation, pain (since these > are unpleasant feelings so they are dosa mula rooted) > > > > Ken O 31678 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.4.) Dear yu_zhonghao One can feel a sensible difference amid this class of canon texts and the language of later commys. At Visuddhimagga, Sila-niideso, Chapter III, Buddhaghosa stands all classes of ascetic practices, from wearing on dirty rags to sitting meditation... and no one of them reaches such grotesque extremes of self-punishment! Mettaya, ícaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.4. > MahaKassapa: > > Coming down from my dwelling place, > I entered the city for alms, > stood courteously next to a leper > eating his meal. > He, with his rotting hand, > tossed me a morsel of food, > and as the morsel was dropping, > a finger fell off > right there. > > Sitting next to a wall, > I ate that morsel of food, > and neither while eating it, > nor having eaten, > did I feel > any disgust. > > Whoever has mastered > left-over scraps for food, > smelly urine for medicine, > the foot of a tree for a dwelling, > cast-off rags for robes: > He is a man > of the four directions. > > * * * > > This is enough for me -- > desiring to do jhana, > resolute, mindful; > enough for me -- > desiring the goal, > resolute, > a monk; > enough for me -- > desiring comfort, > resolute, > in training; > enough for me -- > desiring my duty, > resolute, > Such. > > * * * > > There is no such pleasure for me > in the music of a five-piece band > as there is when my mind > is at one, > seeing the Dhamma > aright. > > > [Thag XVIII] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/theragatha/thag18 > .html 31679 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 16 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has slept and he just wakes up. He knows that he is awake. He knows that he is in bed. He is planning for the day and he also knows that he is planning and thinking. I wants to get out of bed to start the day. He knows that he wants so. Bending the elbow, holding the blanket, stretching the arm, beding the hip, bending the knee, stretching the leg, putting down the leg on the floor, rising up and stand on feet. He knows that he wants to go to the toilet. Stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off another foot, swinging, footing, standing and so on and he knows that he is in front of the commode. He knows that he wants to sit on. Turning, bending trunk, hip and knee, touching with the commode, sitting, want to release, release, releive. Want to clean, clean. Stand up, stretching, stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off and so on and he knows that he wants to go to the basin and then he washes his hands knowingly the touches of water noting the characters. Washing, brushing, cleaning, wiping and then he goes for a shower and notes through out. Flowing, drying, wiping and cleaning are all noted. He just takes an ordinary dressing and he consciously changes the dressing. Combing, putting things in their place and then he prepares for paying homage to The Buddha image in the shrine. He sits mindfully and he touches at five areas in his worshiping that is feet, knees, elbows, hands and the forehead. Then he does the routine citing and pays homage to triplegem. Then he sits. He knows that he is breathing. When it is long he knows it as long particularly the long touch. When it is short, he knows it as short, noting touch. When in, he knows he is breathing in and when out he knows it out. He knows at that time that he is well calm. For some time he has sat and he has been mindful. He wants to rise up. He notes that he wants so. He knows all his bodily movement. From sitting to standing, standing to walking. And he also knows all his actions carrying utensils, plates, cups and saucers. He sits at the breakfast table. He notes that he wants to eat as he was fast the whole night. He notes he stretches his hand and takes the food. he notes that he brings the food to his mouth, opening the mouth, putting the food into the mouth, close the mouth, grind the food, wants to swallows and then swallows the ground food. Stretch out to take the glass, put on the table, pour juice into the glass, want to drink, take to the mouth, put into the mouth, hold and swallow the juice. He knows that he finishes his breakfast, wants to clean mouth and lips with tissue, clean them, put the tissue into the bin. Want to stand, stand, move around and engage the routine. He notes through out the day as far as he can and when he is back home, he changes his dressing mmindfully with loose dressing for ease. Have dinner mindfully and finish it and he leaves the dinner table and he sits at his table planning for tomorrow. He knows that he is planning. When the mindfulness works evidently he realises that mindfulness is working. Mindfulness feeds other co-arising dhamma. Mindfulness reminds the mind and its conditioners to do their jobs in their way. When point after point are being well attended and they all are mindful, that mindfulness becomes a factor of peer factors that assist arising of wisdom. Mindfulness is not him or his. He knows that mindfulness just arises and falls away.The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31680 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Re: Right understanding for beginners ( was Sammaditthi#1492) Hi Philip, --------------------- Ph: > Thank you for your concern, Ken. I am taking everything with a > grain of salt these days, staying open to all views, or trying to, to > avoid my past error of being convinced that walking on only one side > of the sidewalk is Right. --------------------- Grain of salt? Where do you think you are, at a picnic? I want everyone on the left side of the sidewalk (footpath!). Then, to keep Sarah happy, we all have to board the same train to New York. Step out of line, and Ken O will be barking at our heels. :-) ------------------------- Ph: > I found this in the "Assumptions" sutta that Victor was kind > enough to link me to. Owing to the fading of > ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I > am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > I think I can say - with "I" used as always for convenience - that > I have at least come to enough understanding to be able to put myself > in with the "well-instructed disciple" above. ------------------------ Yes, with an intellectual grasp of nama and rupa, we can know (in our beginners' way) that self has no role to play in reality: We can appreciate the brilliance of the ariyan mind without presuming to emulate it. ------------------------ Ph: > A beginner's right understanding is well described here the basic right understanding referred to above is gradually > rising, and I am very grateful to this group for that. ------------------------------ So am I. Our understanding of nama and rupa doesn't sound much, but it puts us streets ahead of where we were without it. By knowing how nama differs from rupa, we have opened the way for panna to directly know (for example) sense consciousness as nama and sense object as rupa. Kind regards, Ken H 31681 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:57pm Subject: Degrees of sati Hello all, I would like to bring this passage from Nina's "Understanding Reality" to your attention: "We are inclined to join many realities together into a "whole." I thought that I could see a duck's foot, and I failed t understand that seeing is different from thinking and and different from tasting. One cannot see a duck's foot, seeing sees only visible object or colour. Thinking can think of the idea of a duck's foot. Thinking itself is a nama, it is reality, and sati can be mindful of thinking. That idea of which we think is not a reality and thus it cannot be object mindfulness." (end quote) Could I ask first of all what is meant by "object mindfulness", as opposed to "an object of mindfulness." Is it mindfulness that is capable of taking an object? Second, this is a basic point that I could clarify by going back to the answer Jon gave me in that "spinning pannathi(sp?)" thread, but it's probably best that I check my understanding by think out loud here. I know from the ESL classroom that students that take chances and make mistakes are the ones that make the most progress, especially if they have teachers (ie you all) that are willing to give them feedback. If I recall correctly, the teaching found in Nina's books is that sati can be mindful of thinking, but not of concepts, because concepts are not realities. Sati can only be mindful of realities. The idea of a duck's foot is a concept, not a reality. Sati can only be mindful of paramattha (sp?) dhammas. Nina's says elsewhere in this essay that there are different degrees of sati. ("Sati is a mental factor which accompanies each wholesome moment of consciousness. There are different kinds and degrees of sati.") I would hazard a guess that the higher (deeper? more real?) degree of sati- the one that arises only very rarely in daily life -can only take paramattha dhammas as object, but there is a shallower or more mundane kind of sati that can take concepts as an object of mindfulness. I would guess that when I see a duck's foot on a dish seeing-consciousness sees and perception (sanna?) labels and vedana gives rise to a feeling and the result is the non-appetizing (in my case) idea of a "duck's foot." In this case, sanna would not be able to arise easily, because it is an unfamiliar food. Let's say it was a bagel with cream cheese I saw in an advertisement in a magazine on the way to work. The concept would arise easily, and it would be appetizing. Later, if I were at work and my stomach grumbled, the concept of bagel with cream cheese might arise in my mind. I would guess that common sati could be mindful of it, and that mindfulness could hold the concept up to view, and an intention not to eat a bagel with cream cheese could arise. (Because bagels are crappy in Japan, it would be panna at work if an intention not to eat one of those crappy bagels arose, I think.) Just thinking aloud here. I know this sort of thing has been discussed a lot before - I saw an exchange between Larry and Sarah back at the beginning of the ADL study group in 2002 - but thank you in advance for allowing me to think out loud. My tentative conclusion - there is a sati that can only be mindful of paramattha dhammas, and another degree of sati, a shallower, more common degree of sati, that can hold up concepts for view. This would be the sati that other teachers in the Theravada tradition (Ajahn Chah and Ayya Khema, to speak of two of my favourites) often refer to as something that we should and can expect to develop as a common experience in our daily life. Thank you in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil 31682 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:58pm Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, Is a person a murderer all because of past actions? Does a person murder all because of past conditions? Or, does a person have murderous thoughts all because of past conditions? If not, how is a person not a murderer? Regards, Swee Boon 31683 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.4.) Hi ícaro, Thank you for this message. I don't know every detail of the ascetic practices. These passages are about being content, and to me they are excellent reminders on being so. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear yu_zhonghao > > One can feel a sensible difference amid this class of canon texts > and the language of later commys. At Visuddhimagga, Sila-niideso, > Chapter III, Buddhaghosa stands all classes of ascetic practices, > from wearing on dirty rags to sitting meditation... and no one of > them reaches such grotesque extremes of self-punishment! > > Mettaya, ícaro > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > § 5.4. > > MahaKassapa: > > > > Coming down from my dwelling place, > > I entered the city for alms, > > stood courteously next to a leper > > eating his meal. > > He, with his rotting hand, > > tossed me a morsel of food, > > and as the morsel was dropping, > > a finger fell off > > right there. > > > > Sitting next to a wall, > > I ate that morsel of food, > > and neither while eating it, > > nor having eaten, > > did I feel > > any disgust. > > > > Whoever has mastered > > left-over scraps for food, > > smelly urine for medicine, > > the foot of a tree for a dwelling, > > cast-off rags for robes: > > He is a man > > of the four directions. > > > > * * * > > > > This is enough for me -- > > desiring to do jhana, > > resolute, mindful; > > enough for me -- > > desiring the goal, > > resolute, > > a monk; > > enough for me -- > > desiring comfort, > > resolute, > > in training; > > enough for me -- > > desiring my duty, > > resolute, > > Such. > > > > * * * > > > > There is no such pleasure for me > > in the music of a five-piece band > > as there is when my mind > > is at one, > > seeing the Dhamma > > aright. > > > > > > [Thag XVIII] > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/theragatha/thag18 > > .html 31684 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Fever (was "right understanding for beginners") Hello Ken, and all. K:> Yes, with an intellectual grasp of nama and rupa, we can know (in > our beginners' way) that self has no role to play in reality: We > can appreciate the brilliance of the ariyan mind without presuming > to emulate it. Every morning I read one chapter of the Dhammapada and reflect on my understanding of it, so as I go through in a cycle and come around to the same chapter every 3 weeks or so it's very interesting to see how my interpretation is always evolving. This morning I read this in the chapter on Arahants: "In one who has gone the full distaance, is free from sorrow, is fully released in all respects, has abandoned all bonds: no fever is found" This "fever" is very interesting. Another translation is "fever of passion" I would say that even a beginner's right understanding does away with "fever". The Arahant sees an end of subtle remnants of aversion and attachment - I would think that even a beginner like myself can aspire to see an end of fever. I think of the feverish condition I was in when I found the Abhidhamma and this group. I could hardly sleep at night. Now that fever has subsided and I am seeing things with a basic right understanding. WIll some new discovery come along that gives rise to a new fever of unpleasantly intense enthusiasm? Will circumstances of life overwhelm my beginner's right understanding and give rise to feverish states? It will be interesting to see what unfolds from here, but I dare say there will be less fever involved. I'm also interested in samvega, which does have the potential to be feverish if not accompanied by right understanding. The image of the man with the burning turban keeps coming back. We are taught to practice with a certain urgency like a person whose turban is on fire. How challenging to practice with urgency without being feverish! Again, I think of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart who said "a great fire is burning under heaven, but heaven is not the least affected by it." BTW, could anyone tell me more about the Pali word that is used for "fever? ((Ch. VII line 90 of the Dhammapada) Metta, Phil 31685 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Swee Boon These are questions of kamma ;-). Buddha rejected that. A person murderous thought can be arisen due to past actions (habitual effect) but whether the person will act on it, will depend on whether he has wise intention on that moment. I give you A condition B previously. latency of A will condition B (increase murderous thoughts) when this person met a chance to kill, will B condition C(killing). If at that time when B arise then there arise in B citta wise attention arise due to accumulation (assuming D), B will not condition C, B will condition D. If there is not, B will condition C (do the killing). These are just simple rules to understand a complex behaviour. Ken O 31686 From: matjinepal Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:28pm Subject: Theravada Cosmology Hi!! Sawatdee!! Namaste!! I just joined this group and I am really excited to get involved. First of all, my name is Matt and I am a student from NJ, USA (but I lived in Chiang Mai, Thailand and Nuwakot, Nepal) and I am a follower of the Theravada tradition, with basic knowledge of the Mahayana tradition (which I am going to study on Sikkim, India in June). 1) My first question is what does the theravada cosmology have to do with khamma? I can see and understand some of the symbolism in the Mahayana cosmology, but I draw a blank when trying to decipher the Theravada. Can anybody help me out here? 2) I have an interested topic for discussion if anybody is interested. After living and volunteering outside of Chiang Mai, Thailand I have become quite familiar with the mood up there. One of the largest problems I have seen is the growth greed, dukkha, caused by tourism and various other "technologies". How can Buddhists around the world cope with the growing material dependence of our world? By the four noble truths: dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, magga -- suffering is caused by greedy desire. How do Buddhists live in cities, surrounded by material dependence, like Bangkok of Ho Chi Minh City for example?? Any opinions? Thanks!! Sawatdeenakhap; Namaskaar -Matt 31687 From: hasituppada Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: On Control Hello Swee Boon, I would rather call them decisions; mental-decisions, there are many that come along in Vipassana. They may not be "controls" with metta, Hasituppada ____________________________________________________________________ If the same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to remove it". Well, isn't the decision to let in another thought a form of control? Isn't there volition involved? Swee Boon 31688 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:27am Subject: Re: Fever (was "right understanding for beginners") Hello Phil, Hope this is of some help - from the PTS Dictionary: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html "Parilaha (p. 435) [pari+daha of dah, cp. paridahati. On change of d and Q see Geiger, P.Gr. s 423] burning, fever; fig. fever of passion, consumption, distress, pain D III.238 (avigata°), 289 (°nanatta); M I.101 (kame); S II.143 sq. (°nanatta), 151 (kama°; vyapada°, vihinsa°); III.7 sq. (tanha, pipasa, p.), 190 (vigata°); IV.387; V.156 (kayasmin), 451 (jati°, jara°); A I.68 (kama°), 137 (ragaja, mohaja etc.); II.197 (vighata); III.3, 245 sq., 388 sq.; IV.461 sq.; Sn 715 (=ragajo va dosajo va appamattako pi p. SnA 498); Dh 90 (cp. DhA II.166: duvidho p. kayiko cetasiko ca); Nd2 374 (kama°); J II.220; Miln 97, 165, 318; ThA 41, 292; VvA 44; PvA 230." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > BTW, could anyone tell me more about the Pali word that is used > for "fever? ((Ch. VII line 90 of the Dhammapada) > > Metta, > Phil 31689 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:34am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > Now a straight forward answer would be: Yes, it is possible to strive > without self-identity view. How? By making good effort in practicing > mindfulness immersed in the body and not assuming the five aggregates > to be the self, or the self as possessing the five aggregates, or the > five aggregates as in the self or the self as in the five aggregates. Yes, satipatthana can arise to take paramattha dhammas as objects, at such moments the effort will be `right' and `good'. And also there is `no assuming the five aggregates to be the self', and so on. But the conditions have to be there, and `intention' plays little, if any role in this. Swee Boon, how does one determine if the citta is kusala? Does not this perception require panna of a very high degree? > This, I think is the method the Buddha used to achieve Enlightenment. > By using the 4th jhana as the basis for his mindfulness immersed in > the body, and not assuming any self-identity with regards to the > five aggregates, he penetrated to the right knowledge of anatta. Buddha's experience is *not* a method to be followed. He arrived at that point purely by conditions, the major of which are the perfections of the Parami. He had no idea about the Eightfold path and Anatta up until the time when he attained enlightenment. In other words his `striving' *was* with self-view, even when the divine eye arose to know `kamma and rebirth of beings'. It was only after the Eightfold path arose that he understood the meaning of Anatta. Of course `self-view' does not arise all the time, but it is there as latent tendency. All Buddhas are different from Savakas. This is why elsewhere I suggested that anyone who has heard the Teachings and yet insist on Jhana as being the method to reach the goal would get neither. If jhana is not a natural behavior as is any other behavior, in which case the Jhana cittas can become objects of insight, then one is *not* following the Buddha's teachings when one thinks about *using* jhana. BTW, jhana too cannot be *aimed* at if one's natural inclinations and hence lifestyle does not accord with the fact of the `danger in sense objects'. This too requires panna of a very high level. I believe also that those who practice what they call jhana or absorption, are doing something they have accumulated for many lifetimes, some form of Samadhi or the other. The fact that they come across the Buddha's teachings and are attracted, does not mean that their views will be corrected, in fact the chance of making wrong connections are very high since they are attached to certain mental states. Anyway, the main point is that, panna that sees the danger in sense objects and vipassana panna are totally different, though the former can be a base for the latter. And related to this, is the idea that `concentration' has to be developed at least by `constant mindfulness', so as to finally be able to `penetrate' realities. This is another wrong view. Panna of Buddha kind understands any and every reality. The idea is not to chase after `ideals' and `ideas', but to grow slowly in understanding the present moment. Jhana on the other hand sees danger of `sensuality' and so seeks to `block out' such experiences. But Buddha's teachings understood correctly should lead one not `away' but to face what `is' as much as the accumulated panna can know and understand. In the beginning it is going to be `intellectual' but only this would be consistent with what it means to *learn* and *grow in understanding*. Anything else looks to me like a pipe dream. Think about it. Metta, Sukin. 31690 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:45am Subject: Satipa.t.thaana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam: To Nina Dear Nina, Phil and all How are you? I am okay. Nina wrote: "Thank you very much for your post. I enjoyed eading it." If you enjoyed this thread, you would also like its sequel below. Suan _______________ _________ _____ ____ Dear Dhamma friends How are you? The following contains a refutation of Jeffery Brooks's wrong views and misrepresentation of Satapa.t.thaana Suttam. Please enjy it. :-) Suan Lu Zaw ______________ _________ _______ Dear Herman, Howard, Stephhen and all Herman wrote: "So, to cut a long story short, awareness of breathing combines many, many different fields of perception. Not to mention all sorts of thinking that gets incorporated as in "breathing out long" or "breathing out short", "nostrils", "chest" and so forth." Yes, you are spot-on, Herman. As soon as the Buddha began teaching "Iti ajjattam vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati, bahiddhaa vaa kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati... (translations in the previous posts)" in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, he has left the teaching on Samatha practice, and moved on to teaching Vipassanaa practice. Aacariya Buddhaghosa in the Commentary On Exhalation And Inhalation in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam advised the practitioners to go upto the Fourth Ruupa Jhaana (if they could, of course). Then, he advised them to get out of the Jhaana and investigate the real phenomena as follows. "so jhaanaa vu.t.thahitvaa assaasapassaase vaa parigga.nhaati jhaana~ngaani vaa." Section 347, Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. "Having got out from the Jhaana, he explores either exhalation and inhalation or the components of the Jhaana." In short, the practitioner with the crystal clear near-jhaana concentration (upacaara samaadhi), begins to reason, intellectualise, and generalise the real phenomena which are either instances of matter or mental associates (cetasikas) in the form of the components of the Jhaana. He would keep doing until he gains the liberational insight into the nature of things (Vipassanaa). In conclusion, the Buddha taught wise observation of exhalation and inhalation in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam only to go beyond Samatha Jhaanas and attain Vipassanaa insight. This leaves us to reaffirm that Satapa.t.thaana Suttam is the Vipassanaa Suttam. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org "Egberdina" wrote: Hi Suan, I am very interested in the discussion so far, so I thought I'd go back to this point, and make some comments. "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > "Internally or privately" means one's body of exhalation and > inhalation while "externally" refers to other people's bodies of > exhalations and inhalations. > > Please remember that the Section under discussion is how to live > observing wisely the bodily functions of breathing out and breathing > in. > > Thus, the adverb "internally" specifies one's bodily functions of > exhalation and inhalation while the adverb "externally" specifies > other people's bodily functions of breathing out and breathing in. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, how are you? Thank you very much for your post. I enjoyed eading it. Nina. op 22-03-2004 15:42 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Stephen has asked me if the term "vipassanaa" occurs in > Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, and if it can be found in other Suttams as > well. 31691 From: nidive Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sukin, > But the conditions have to be there, and `intention' plays > little, if any role in this. Well, skillful 'intention' on practising mindfulness immersed in the body is one of the "conditions". Don't you agree? > Swee Boon, how does one determine if the citta is kusala? Does not > this perception require panna of a very high degree? If I can determine if a particular citta is kusala or not, I would already be an arahant with the analytical knowledges. :-) So, if you are going to wait until panna develops to such a high degree, you won't ever even reach the sotapatti gate. It's just impossible. :-( But there is a method to determine if an action is skillful or not. See the Buddha's instructions to Rahula. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061.html > Buddha's experience is *not* a method to be followed. He arrived at > that point purely by conditions, the major of which are the > perfections of the Parami. He had no idea about the Eightfold path > and Anatta up until the time when he attained enlightenment. In > other words his `striving' *was* with self-view, even when the > divine eye arose to know `kamma and rebirth of beings'. It was only > after the Eightfold path arose that he understood the meaning of > Anatta. Of course `self-view' does not arise all the time, but it is > there as latent tendency. Huh? The Eightfold Path arose only after he attained enlightenment? But he has no need for the Eightfold Path after becoming enlightend. Like a raft, after using it to reach the other shore, it is abandoned. Or did I read you wrongly? Regards, Swee Boon 31692 From: Eznir Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Sarah, (Since this is relevant to the Paticcasamuppada string of messages I thought of posting it here). Sarah in # 31453 : Meanwhile, do you have anything to share or comment on concerning ignorance or the Mahandidana intro? Refer Sammaditti Sutta MN-09 With the arising of taints there is the arising of ignorance. Now one of the taints is the taint of ignorance. Which means that with the arising of ignorance there is the arising of ignorance. Therefore the foundation of ignorance is ignorance itself! This implies that to an uninstructed person it is intrinsically impossible to know that he is ignorant, to know what he is ignorant of, since he is in ignorance. To put it differently: When one is *in* ignorance, one does not *know* ignorance, one is ignorant. Incidently, when one is "in" consciousness, one doesn't "know" consciousness, one is "it". Contrary to the belief that one can "see" consciousness. That is impossible. Coming back to ignorance, the state of ignorance is such that one does not recognize ignorance for what it is, much like the class of people "who do not know that they do not know that they do not know!" And what are they ignorant of? The four noble truths. (1) Suffering. (2)Its arising. (3)Its cessation. (4)The path of practice leading to its cessation. The significance of all four must be understood in total, and their meanings well pondered with reflective acceptance. Only then the cessation of ignorance will just begin! metta eznir --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine & All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > > > RobertK has written this post on D.O. and I thought dsg members might > > find it worthwhile to consider also. > .... > There are also these posts (inc. several of Rob's) in U.P. If anyone has > spare time over the weekend or following weeks, they may like to take a > look and repost any as relevant in the study corner: > > Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) > > 822, 8562, 11031, 11168, 11210,11223, 11234, 11326, 11425, 11609, 12256, > 12286, 12346, 12723, 20634, 29364, 29435, 30771, 30984 > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > > 31693 From: nidive Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: On Control Hi Ken, And how does wise attention arise? Does it not arise all because of past conditions? And how does unwise attention arise? Does it not arise all because of past conditions? This does not refute the statement "a person is a murderer all because of past conditions" or the statement "a person is not a murderer all because of past conditions". Regards, Swee Boon 31694 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Degrees of sati Hi Philip, op 24-03-2004 01:57 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: Could I ask first of all what is meant by "object mindfulness", as > opposed to "an object of mindfulness." Is it mindfulness that is > capable of taking an object? N: Sati cetasika arises with citta and can thus shares the object with citta. Since sati arises with each sobhana citta there are many levels of it. Sati is non-forgetful, heedful of what is wholesome. Sati of dana is non-forgetful of generosity, sati of sila is non-forgetful of abstaining from evil, sati of samatha is mindful of the meditation subject. Sati of satipatthana is mindful of a paramattha dhamma so that understanding of it can be developed. Its object is citta, cetasika and rupa. The aim is to know them as they truly are, as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. One level of sati does not exclude the others, there is no rule. Who knows where citta travels in a day? Nina. 31695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:24am Subject: Vis. 68, ageing of rupas Vis. 68, ageing of rupas 22. 'Ageing' has the characteristic of maturing (ripening) material instances. Its function is to lead on towards [their termination]. It is manifested as the loss of newness without the loss of individual essence, like oldness in paddy. Pali: sabhaavaanapagamepi navabhaavaapagamapaccupa.t.thaanaa viihipuraa.nabhaavo viya. Tiika: Sabhaavaanapagamepiiti kakkha.lataadisabhaavassa avigamepi. As to the expression, without the loss of its specific nature, because the roughness etc. of this nature has not disappeared. thitikkha.ne hi jaraa, na ca tadaa dhammo sabhaava.m vijahati naama. The decay is during the moments of its presence, and during those moments that dhamma does not abandon its specific nature. N: The paddy becomes rough, but it is still paddy, rough paddy. With this simile it is demonstrated that rupa, after it has arisen, when it is still present, is decaying and on its way to destruction. Vis text: Its proximate cause is matter that is maturing (ripening). This is said with reference to the kind of ageing that is evident through seeing alteration in teeth, etc.,as their brokenness, and so on (cf. Dhs. 644). But that of immaterial states, which has no such [visible] alteration, is called hidden ageing. And that in earth, water, rocks, the moon, the sun, etc., is called incessant ageing. [450] Pali Vis: paripaccamaanaruupapada.t.thaanaa. kha.n.diccaadibhaavena dantaadiisu vikaaradassanato ida.m paaka.tajara.m sandhaaya vutta.m. aruupadhammaana.m pana pa.ticchannajaraa naama hoti, tassaa esa vikaaro natthi, yaa ca pathavii udakapabbatacandimasuuriyaadiisu aviicijaraa naama. Tiika: ³Aruupadhammaanan²ti ida.m tesa.m jaraaya su.t.thu pa.ticchannataaya vutta.m. As to the expression, immaterial states, this is said with reference to their ageing that is well hidden. Ruupadhammaanampi hi kha.nikajaraa pa.ticchannaa eva, yaa aviicijaraatipi vuccati. Of rupa dhammas the momentary ageing is also hidden, and this is also called incessant (decaying). Esa vikaaroti kha.n.diccaadivikaaramaaha. So hi aruupadhammesu na labbhati. As to the expression, such (visible) alteration, he spoke of the alteration as to broken teeth, etc. This cannot be applied to the immaterial dhammas. Yaa aviicijaraa naama, tassaapi esa vikaaro natthiiti sambandhitabba.m. As to what is called incessant ageing [of rupas], there is no such (visible) alteration of this either in this connection. Natthi etissaa jaraaya viiciiti aviicijaraa, navabhaavato duvi~n~neyyantarajaraati attho. In the case of incessant ageing there is no (visible )alteration, and the meaning is that the ageing is difficult to know because of newness [in appearance]. N: As to ageing of mental phenomena, each citta has three submoments: arising, presence and falling away. These moments are extremely short. At the moment of presence the citta is more powerful, and the cittas that are able to originate rupas can do so only at that moment. The moment of presence of citta and its falling away follows immediately upon the moment of arising. Then citta is succeeded by the next one. As to incessant ageing, the rupas that constitute a rock are ageing all the time, but this is invisible, since rupas are replaced so long as there are conditions. Thus, this is not as obvious as broken teeth, etc. ***** Nina. 31696 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:20am Subject: Total Tolerating Tinting Taint TOTAL TOLERATING TINTING TAINT Changing is that frame , mainly quit cloth wane, Painting is not the same, gain we a bit more drain. Maintaining is not framed, changing tint props lanes, Obtaining pics not the same, changing puts sense sane. Brainy is that insane, changing brain up sane, Attaining quit that insane, maintaining it up full saint. Draining is that vain, training gains that sane, When that up full saint, then left all fool taints. HTOO NAING 31697 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo Dear Htoo, op 23-03-2004 19:00 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Could you please explain the relationship between temperature and > rupa? Is utu exactly temperature? N: Utu: PED: season, condition of climate. In the context of the Abh: tejaa dhaatu: Element of Fire or heat. It can be translated as temperature, being heat or cold. It is one of the four great Elements and it arises in each unit (kalapa) of rupa. It is also one of the four factors that originate rupa. See below. The rupa that is temperature cannot originate other rupas at its arising moment, only during the moments of its presence. I repeat here some details, translated from Thai, Dhamma Issues: There are four groups of rúpa originating from temperature, utu: 1. The pure octad, suddhatthaka kalåpa, a group of eight rúpas consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas). This group arises for the first time in living beings at the moment of presence of the rebirth-consciousness and from then on it arises at each moment of presence of the rúpa which is temperature [6]. 2. The sound nonad, a group of nine rúpas: the eight inseparable rúpas and sound. This is sound which does not originate from citta. It can arise with rúpas which are dead matter and with rúpas of the body. 3. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. These three rúpas can be the condition for bodily movement when citta intends to cause such movement [7]. 4.The dodecad of sound and lightness, a group consisting of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas and sound. These rúpas are produced by temperature when sound arises together with these vikåra rúpas [8] . Footnotes: 6:At the moment of presence (titthi khana) of the rebirth-consciousness, utu, that is the element of heat, produced by kamma at the arising moment of the rebirth-consciousness, can in its turn produce new rúpas. Rúpa such as heat or nutrition cannot at their arising moment produce other rúpas, because they are too weak. Heat and nutrition can, during the moments of their presence, produce other rúpas and they do so throughout life. 7. Even if citta intends to produce rúpa in order to move the limbs, it cannot do so if there are not also vikåra rúpas conditioned by the right temperature. The three factors of citta, temperature and nutrition each produce groups of rúpa that include the vikåra rúpas. These three groups support one another. See ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Appendix to Rúpa, by Acharn Suijn. 8. When there is sound by snapping the fingers or applauding, vikåra rúpas arise together with sound. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Appendix to Rúpa. *** H: Is sound the effect of temperature? N: it can be originated by citta or by temperature. When it is sound outside (of nature, forest, etc.) it can only be produced by temperature, like all other rupas that are outside the body. Nina. 31698 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi, Matt Welcome to the group from me. For a student you have certainly managed to get around to some interesting places, with more to come! Let me try to give a brief answer to your questions. 1. I don't know of any connection between kamma and cosmology. As I understand it, they are separate and non-overlapping forces. The force of 'cause and result' obtains between intentional action (kamma) and momentary sense-door experiencing (vipaka). The appearing and disappearing of world systems etc (which is what I understand by cosmology in this context) operates under its own natural law. 2. How can Buddhists cope with growing material dependency? I would say that the only real escape from this and other problems is escape from samsara altogether. So the goal remains the same, as does the practice, namely, the development of insight. Any coping on a shorter term basis is a patch-up job. I hope others will come in with other suggestions, too. And I also hope you find your time here useful. Jon --- matjinepal wrote: > Hi!! Sawatdee!! Namaste!! > > I just joined this group and I am really excited to get involved. > First of all, my name is Matt and I am a student from NJ, USA (but > I > lived in Chiang Mai, Thailand and Nuwakot, Nepal) and I am a > follower of the Theravada tradition, with basic knowledge of the > Mahayana tradition (which I am going to study on Sikkim, India in > June). ... 31699 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:25pm Subject: Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 16 ) Dear Htoo, I know, from your conversations with Sarah, that you are aware of the difference between `concentration on concepts' and `satipatthana.' So I wonder, when you write about "sensing dhamma as they really are," why do you only mention concepts? Could you be more specific, please? To take one example: when the meditator `knows that he is planning and thinking,' what, exactly, does he know? At the moment he experiences the concept of planning, there is no satipatthana, is there? Similarly, when you say, "he knows that he is in front of the commode," there is no satipatthana then, is there? There is just the experience of concepts (concepts of `I,' `in front' and `commode') – which are things all of us - Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike - know perfectly well. Admittedly, the Satipatthana Sutta uses language similar to the language you have used. However, the people, to whom that sutta was addressed, knew not to confuse concepts with realities. Today, very few people are aware of the difference: we can't describe satipatthana in the way you have without creating serious misunderstanding. I say this as a person who has wasted many, many hours concentrating on concepts – in the mistaken belief that that was what the Buddha taught. These days, I try to warn others not to make the same mistake. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The meditator has slept and he just wakes up. He knows that he is awake. He knows that he is in bed. He is planning for the day and he also knows that he is planning and thinking. > > 31700 From: Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Matt, Welcome. Maybe I can rephrase your question on kamma and cosmology and someone else can answer it. What are the 4 planes of existence? How does one come to be reborn into each? What are the kamma resultant consciousnesses and kamma initiating consciousnesses in the 3 mundane planes? What are the kamma resultant consciousnesses and the functional volitional consciousnesses in the supramundane plane? As for life in the big city, I think we have to take it step by step. Larry 31701 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > There is no control over the 3 characteristics of dhammas. > > But there is control over whether kusala or akusala dhamma arises. > This, I think, is the function of cetana. And in a later post you add: What I mean is that there can be deliberate consideration whether to take a skilfull or unskillful action. Jon: Of course, there can indeed be such deliberation, but the ensuing action may or may not be as we would like it to be. And even if there seems to be some degree of control over the bodily action, what about the accompanying mind-states? Actually, in the suttas there is frequent mention of control of various kinds (mastery over this or that, including kusala mind-states), but not as a general description of the nature of things. > Though cetana is conditioned by many conditions, yet in no way is > the function and power of cetana mitigated by way of being > conditioned thus. Well this seems like a contradiction in terms. By definition, being conditioned surely means being subject to 'outside' forces. > Whether or not self-identity view arises, cetana is still cetana. > Control is still control. > > Cetana is cetana. Self-identity view is self-identity view. The two > are not the same. Neither do they always occur together. I agree that cetana and self-identity view are 2 different dhammas, each of which has its own characteristic, but I don't see control as falling into the same category. Jon 31702 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Icaro --- icarofranca wrote: ... > It seems to me an old Bertrand Russel´s quote about propositional logic: > - One says "Scott is Waverley´s author". Propositional logic > evaluates the value (if any) of the links and relationships > between the concepts of 'Scott" and 'Waverley´s Author´...but what´s being > said anyway? The only real entities in these declaration are > 'Scott' - a classic writter - and 'Waverley´s author' - a sentence that is > the same at the preceeding subject: two Dhammas with no relationship > between them, since they are the same! It seems to me that this kind of analysis is somewhat logic-bound (as the name might suggest). I wonder what PL would say about a proposition in these terms: With Scott as author, Waverly came to be ;-)). Here the same core terms, and more or less the same vocabulary, clearly refer to a particular and defined relationship. > Going further on, many oriental languages haven´t even got the present tense "to be" expressed on such sentences! Quite so! And obviously the PL approach would give a different answer to the same piece of expressed information, depending on the language used to express the information. Not only logic-bound, also culture-bound! Jon 31703 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:10pm Subject: Re: Backing Off [Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings] Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Just for the record: I make no claim whatsoever to "high attainments"! ;-)) I believe that what I had was a very small, initial opening, a kind of insight experience in which there was no sense of subjectivity or corresponding objectivity. The experience was terribly frightening, and, most unfortunately, abandoned as soon as it was possible to do so. As far as it went, it was no more then a taste of what the Zennists would call satori, I guess. It seems to have been a useful event in my life, but I make no more claim for it than that. Jon: To my understanding insight involves seeing dhammas more clearly as they truly are. I'm not sure how what you describe here as 'no sense of subjectivity or corresponding objectivity' fits into that description. If you regard it as an experience of 'not-self', was it a particulr dhamma that was seen as 'no-self'? Howard: Part of the usefulness, a small part, was in it enabling me to see that it is actually possible to experience without subject-object duality. It serves as an experiential basis for my interpreting vi~n~nana as subjective (self-oriented) knowing, but that interpretation of vi~n~nana would make sense to me anyway, as I find it clarifies D.O. for me considerably. Jon: I think by 'subject-object duality' you are referring to wrong view or an aspect of it. Wrong view is something the presence or absence of which can be apparent during normal daily life, without having an 'experience'. Insight has many levels, and we should not downplay the importance of the less significant moments of weak insight that can occur as a result of useful reflection on what has been heard or read. By the way, although we live our lives without much right view we must remember that absence of right view does not necessarily mean presence of wrong view. Wrong view is not something that is a more or less constant part of the experience of the unenlightened being, I would suggest. Howard: With regard to the Kalakarama Sutta, I see the following portion of it as describing experience that is free of subject and free of object: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing.... "When sensing.... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer. Thus, monks, the Tathagata -- being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized -- is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. Jon: I'm not sure whether you mean, 'free of subject and free of object' or 'free of *a sense of* subject and free of *a sense of* object'. I presume the latter. Objectively speaking, the actual moment of experience of say visible-object is pretty much the same for all beings; it is the *thinking* that occurs in the immediately succeeding moments that differs according to levels of understanding. In the sutta, the words 'when seeing what is to be seen' at the beginning of the passage describe an experience that is common to all beings in this realm. The difference from being to being lies in what comes next in the sutta quote; in the Buddha's case, there is no proliferation. Howard: One more thing: I do believe that when sense of self is fully uprooted (in an arahant) his/her experience then becomes free of any sense of knowing subject and known object. It seems to me that such would have to be the case when atta-sense is completely torn away. This seems close to being tautologous. Jon: To my understanding, the path to enlightenment is developed by seeing more clearly each of the different kinds of dhamma that make up our life as they truly are, whether that be as dhamma that experiences an object or as dhamma that does not experience an object. It is in this manner that the atta-sense presently held in relation to each kind of dhamma, and wrong view of whatever kind, is dispelled. This would include what you describe as 'knowing subject and known object', to the extent that that refers to a kind of wrong view or is implicit in the idea of self. The insight so developed accrues gradually and by stages. It is not satori-like, as far as my reading of the texts indicates. Jon 31704 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control Hi Swee Boon Yes accumulations are past conditions that condition wise attention. But whether a person is a murderer is not dependent on past conditions, it depends on present condition. Past accmulations and lantency each play its part on B (the previous example). Lets say for a serial killer, there will be no doubt the probability of killing is very high because of accumulations. But if at that point, panna arise that due to past accmulations, he notice it, and the after notice it, reflect (giving wise attention) on it, killing will cease. But if at that point, even though panna arise due to past accumulations, there is no wise attention to it, killing will continue. Even though wise attention do condition by past conditions, it also much depend on present moment of wise attention on the wise attention arisen from the past ;-). We cannot say just because of accumulation from the past and now what we do is because of the past, that is deterministic. Accmulation only say what is the most probable habit one will react, but it is not deterministic. It is the present moment of attention (be it wise or unwise) together with the arisen accumulation from the past that will determine our next volition. Ken O 31705 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:58pm Subject: Do we see in dreams Hi all I remember we did discuss that about dreams, and my stand is that there is no seeing in dreams because there is no eye and form in dreaming to conditioned eye conscioness to arise. Here is the sutta quote MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciouness. If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of conscoiusness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciouness." Actually this is prove the sense process is valid because the corresponding [conscious] engagement represents five door adverting consciousness, without it there will be no sense consciouness Ken O 31706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipa.t.thaana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam: To Nina Dear Suan, Thank you very much, I fully agree with your conclusion. Just a little remark on: Some people may believe that this is thinking and intellectual understanding, whereas it is keen and sharp pa~n~naa that does not need words, but directly penetrates the true characteristics. Nina. op 24-03-2004 14:45 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > In short, the practitioner with the crystal clear near-jhaana > concentration (upacaara samaadhi), begins to reason, intellectualise, > and generalise the real phenomena which are either instances of > matter or mental associates (cetasikas) in the form of the components > of the Jhaana. He would keep doing until he gains the liberational > insight into the nature of things (Vipassanaa). > 31707 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Dear Eznir, I think it very good you stress this point: N:That is why ignorance is so dangerous. Nina. 31708 From: Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Hi, Nina (and Eznir) - In a message dated 3/25/04 12:47:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Eznir, > I think it very good you stress this point: foundation of ignorance is ignorance itself! This implies that to an > uninstructed person it is intrinsically impossible to know that he is > ignorant, to know what he is ignorant of, since he is in ignorance. > To put it differently: When one is *in* ignorance, one does not > *know* ignorance, one is ignorant. ...> > N:That is why ignorance is so dangerous. > Nina. > > ============================= On the other hand, there is the following from the Sammaditthi Sutta: _______________________________ (Ignorance) 64. Saying, "Good friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" -- "There might be, friends. 65. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma. 66. "And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering -- this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration. 67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." _______________________________ So, ignorance is not always complete and all-encompassing. If it were, there would be no escaping from it. But one's ignorance can come to be known, and in so knowing it, it can disappear at that very moment, or at least the movement towards its eventual demise can begin. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31709 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:12pm Subject: Re:_[dsg]_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for this post. It got me into doing some research on the > pali original for the word 'modesty'/'modest' in the translation by > Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. .... S: All your research is excellent and I think it’s very interesting. ..... > > The pali original is 'appicchata'/'appiccha'. > > The definitions given in Pali English Dictionary is as following: > > Appicchata (p. 57) (f.) [abstr. fr. prec.] contentment, being > satisfied with little, unostentatiousness Vin iii.21; D iii.115; M > i.13; S ii 202, 208 sq.; A i.12, 16 sq.; iii.219 sq., 448; iv.218, > 280 (opp. mahicchata) > > Appiccha (p. 57) (adj.) [appa + iccha from is, cp. iccha] desiring > little or nothing, easily satisfied, unassuming, contented, > unpretentious .... S: Yes, at first I thought the ‘of few wishes’ definition was the only correct one because I’d seen it in translations and I knew icch- was to wish. I think now that the term has a wider meaning to cover ‘few wishes’ and ‘unassuming’ or ‘modest’ as you give and we really don’t have an English equivalent at all. Very helpful to reflect on. I think in some contexts it may refer to one aspect more than the other, but I’m not sure. A few more refs: Dhp 404 ‘He who is not intimate either with householders or with the homeless ones, who wanders without an abode, who is without desires (appiccha’m), him I call a braahma.na.’ (Narada transl). Sn 628 same lines. Norman transl gives ‘having little desire’. SN 1:63 Bodhi transl gives ‘has few wishes’ SN 1:65 Bodhi gives ‘of few wishes’ in: ‘Sariputta, who is free of anger Of few wishes , gentle, tamed’. .... > The discourse > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > To Anuruddha > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html > might give us some idea about what it means by 'appicchata' > > In Anuruddha Sutta, the thoughts arose in Ven. Anuruddha's > awareness, and the Buddha characterized them as the thoughts of a > great person: > > > "Good, Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts > of a great person: > > > The first of these thoughts of a great person is: > > > 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' > > > In Pali original: > > > Appicchassayam dhammo nàyam dhammo mahicchassa > .... S: Again the PTS transl (Hare) gives ‘who wants little’ but adds a helpful footnote to the commentary which fully supports the wide meaning of appiccha here to cover both meanings: “appicch: comy. This is fourfold: a monk is not greedy for the requisites; does not allow his attainments to be known; nor his learning; nor that he keeps up the thirteen ascetic practices.” Probably we’d have to say ‘wants little and is modest’ to cover the range....or 'of modest needs and unassuming' Helpful, thanks Victor. No disagreements;-) Metta, Sarah ==== > In the following passage (passage § 4.1.) , the Buddha further > explained with reference to what 'This Dhamma is for one who is > modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing' was said: > > > "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. <....> 31710 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_4._Modesty_(§_4.2.) Dear All, --- Sarah wrote: > The commentary (PTS transl) is quite short and certainly the very young > Sumana’s qualities and accumulations were very, very special(!!), so let > me share it here: > > “Reborn in this Buddha-age he took birth in the family of a certain > lay-disciple who had become the lay-attendant of the venerable Thera > Anuruddha. etc ...... A friend asked me off-list more about the translation. Although I wrote it was the PTS transl, I should add more detail because there are at least two translations I know of. The copy I used is in an older translation of the verses by Mrs Rhys Davids. I also have a more recent translation by K.R.Norman which has a much better translation of the verses and extensive notes, but (for me) is disappointing like his more recent and detailed Sutta Nipata translation in that no commentary additions are given. So I use both. I was also asked for the names of all the Pali commentaries and I think they can be found at this link: http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/appendix.htm Also, see the PTS catalogue to find out which have been translated into English: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ .... <....> >when the child was seven years old, he was ordained. And > from > the ripeness of his insight, it was not long before he acquired sixfold > abhi~n~naa, waiting the while upon the Thera. <...> > >[Thag VI.10] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#modesty .... While I’ve popped back on this thread, let me add another note on Sumana. It’s quite likely he’s also the Suman in CC1 (if Anuruddha were also his uncle) according to a footnote by Mrs R-D and also the Dict of PPN. The latter also gives: > 4. Sumana. A pupil of Anuruddha. He represented the monks from Páveyyaka at the Second Council. Vásabhagámi was his colleague. See also Sumana (8). Mhv.iv.49, 58; Dpv.iv.48; v.24; Vin.ii.305, etc.< .... Mrs R-D also mentions this. The Second council was held 100 years after the Buddha’s parinibbana in Vesali, so Sumana would have been well into his century by then. Looking at the Mahavamsa now (PTS transl, The Second council, p24) the ‘great theras’ including Sumana who ‘knew the thoughts of the Greatest of the Sages’ were questioned on the Vinaya points raised by the ‘ten thousand heretical bhikkhus’. All the ten points (including the one about receiving and using money) were of course refuted and declared ‘unlawful, according to tradition’. The Mahavamsa also says that 6 of these 8 ‘great theras’ were students of Ananda and two, including Sumana, were students of Anuruddha. “These eight fortunate theras had beheld the Tathagata in time past. One hundred and twelve thousand bhikkhus had come together, and of all these bhikkhus the thera Revata then was the chief.” Metta, Sarah ===== 31711 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > There is little useful that I ccan add in the following. I think > our > positions may be closer than expected at first glance, but I don't think > they > are the same. ..... Thank you for your efforts and clarifications anyway. I’m glad that we might at least be on the same track. I think from here that the only way to make sure we’re on the same train would be to look at any sutta or text you find helpful rather than just comparing our different understandings of experiences. I’m very glad we at least agree on the last, but possibly most important, point: .... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > You are correct. The thinking back becomes more and more faulty > the > more remote the event. Thinking and concept replace actual experience, > the life > is taken out of the experience, and it is turned into a dead remnant. > And, > yes, it can become "my exprience," and then it becomes nothing but a > stagnation > point. > ---------------------------------------------------- .... I think you’ve expressed it very well indeed. Again I’m reminded of the oft-quoted Bhaddekeratta Sutta verse: “Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state;....” .... No matter how worthy or essential any concepts or memories may seem, the chasing after or clinging onto these illusions is always futile as I see it and takes us away from insight into the ‘presently arisen state’. Metta, Sarah ===== 31712 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Matt, Sawatdee Kha! (Larry & Jon) Another welcome and big thanks for giving us the detail without any requests and the good questions. All you have to do now is to put a photo in the album on the home page and you get full brownie points;-) .... > 1) My first question is what does the theravada cosmology have to do > with khamma? I can see and understand some of the symbolism in the > Mahayana cosmology, but I draw a blank when trying to decipher the > Theravada. Can anybody help me out here? .... I tend to draw blanks when I hear the word ‘cosmology’ too. Anyway, to answer Larry’s helpful clarifying questions, pls look at these detailed posts from RobM and Steve and if you can find away to engage either of them further, encouraging them out of lurkerland, you’ll have earned more than brownie points: RobM http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26158 Steve http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27575 If you have spare time, you might also like to look under these headings in Useful Posts: Rebirth and Planes of Existence, Worlds, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I hope you can add more. ...... >How do Buddhists > live in cities, surrounded by material dependence, like Bangkok of > Ho Chi Minh City for example?? Any opinions? .... Many of us here live in cities. Jon and I live in Hong Kong. If we moved to the countryside would the roots of our problems (greed, hatred, delusion) be any different? Are the problems really in society and the world out there or are they the same problems that have always existed in spite of any superficial changes in lifestyle, dress, housing or politics? On this list we have Buddhists from all over the world but the teachings about the truths are universal and apply to all. How does this sound. Look forward to your contributions, Matt. Metta, Sarah ====== 31713 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Hi Htoo, Good to see you back from your trip and even breaking into verse;-) --- htootintnaing wrote: > > S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are > dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects > (arammana)of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense > bases). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I will be grateful if you explain this further. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: This is what I wrote from my understanding before: Arammana (object) ******** 1. visible object 2. sound 3. odour 4. taste 5. body-impression 6. mind-object (dhammaaramma.na) ..... Note: Dhammarammana (mind-object) 1. nama, inc. nibbana 2. rupa 3. concept (pannatti) ..... Note: any arammana, including concepts can be the object (i.e experienced by) of consciousness (citta/mano/vi~n~nana) ==================== Ayatana (bases, sense fields) ******* a) 6 internal bases 1. eye-base/sense (cakkhu pasada rupa = cakkhayatana) 2. ear-base 3. nose-base 4. tongue-base 5. body-sense base 6. mind-base/consciousness (manaayatana) (refers to all cittas) ...... b) 6 external bases 1. visible object (rupayatana) 2. sound 3. odour 4. taste 5. tactile object - cohesion, temperature, solidity 6. mind-object (dhammayatana) ....... Note: Dhammayatana (mind-objects) 1. All cetasikas 2. subtle rupas (sukhuma rupas) 3. nibbana ....... Note: Ayatanas refer ONLY to ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) and NOT to concepts. ================================================= Confusions arise from translated terms of dhamma, dhammarammana, mano, manayatana, dhammayatana etc . Furthemore, sometimes, dhammarammana refers to dhammayatana and we have to look at the context and commentary notes. ..... Note: dhamma can refer to paramattha dhammas only or to dhammarammana inc pannatti and has to be understood in context. ..... A rough guide: B.Bodhi:- ayatana -base mano (manayatana)- mind, mental dhamma (dhammayatana), dhammarammana- mental phenomenon, mental object, mind object B.Thanissaro:- mano (manayatana) - intellect dhamma (dhammayatana) - ideas ..... For more details, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22188> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: May be. What is manayatana? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S:Manayatana refers to all cittas (inc. bhavanga cittas). ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: But concepts can be known by paramattha dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S:This relates to the questions Ken H is asking you. Concepts can be the objects of cittas in the mind-door process of course and they can even be the objects of cittas with panna as in samatha development. However, they can never be the objects of satipatthana as you agreed before;-) Please let me know if there’s any disagreement ....it’s more fun to travel together. I hope you’ll also clarify and find a way to travel with Ken H too;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 31714 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > The quote you gave from the Pali Vibhanga (2nd text of Abhidhamma) was very helpful indeed. The PTS English translation is very inadequate and confusing I found, so I won't add it as I'd intended. I look forward to any further gems you have. Metta, Sarah ====== 31715 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:38am Subject: Small reminders Hello all, Here are some little reminders for daily life: "The intention to do harm brings harm to the place where harm originated. We never know when vipaka will come. If one is not courageous enough, one clings to calmness for sure. Life is a dream. When one knows the citta that dreams one is awake. One wakes up for one short moment of sati and then the dream takes over. The sound that is heard now does not hear anything. We overlook the obvious all the time, especially Nama, the experience which makes it possible to experience colour right now. One's understanding has to learn to know the obvious, not to overlook what is staring one in the face. One is burnt by one's desire all the time. In reality one is attached to one's feeling, not really the person...." Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 31716 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:07am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Swee Boon, > > But the conditions have to be there, and `intention' plays > > little, if any role in this. > > Well, skillful 'intention' on practising mindfulness immersed > in the body is one of the "conditions". Don't you agree? There is seeing now, there is touching and hearing, can you intend to be mindful? Of course, yes! But this wouldn't be satipatthana which has paramattha dhamma as object, but of a `concept' of a *these* infected with vipallasa and/or of the kind taught by Goenka and others. Sati arises only when the conditions are right. For one reality to come to be, requires such a complex set of conditions that is a case of tunnel vision which thinks that `intention' makes any difference. More important than intention, is seeing the value in `practice', because this itself would be a level of panna. And it is not infected by any ambition. > > Swee Boon, how does one determine if the citta is kusala? Does not > > this perception require panna of a very high degree? > > If I can determine if a particular citta is kusala or not, I would > already be an arahant with the analytical knowledges. :-) No, not an arahat, not even a sotapanna. But I don't particularly care, because I don't need to determine if this citta is kusala or not, because it has already been conditioned to arise and has fallen away. And I have no idea about trying to arouse kusala cittas or having kusala intentions. But this does not mean that I don't see the value of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. :-) > So, if you are going to wait until panna develops to such a high > degree, you won't ever even reach the sotapatti gate. It's just > impossible. :-( The `wait' is in relation to an idea of `doing' something to get `there' from `here'. But of course, you have such an idea and that is why I asked you the question. > But there is a method to determine if an action is skillful or not. > See the Buddha's instructions to Rahula. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061.html First, I think that this advice to Rahula primarily stresses the role of `honesty' in purifying one's mind. All the "wise reflections" regarding deeds through body, speech or mind, is also for the same purpose of purifying the mind. It is in relation to realities *already* conditioned to arise. Also it must be understood that no such wise reflection can take place without a degree of sati and panna. So the method is effective only when the right conditions are there, and volition plays only a subordinate role. If there is sati and panna which recognizes the akusala, only then will any wise reflection occur. If there is no panna, then one could use such advice as a `commandment' and end up with a conclusion centered on the `self', which is akusala. But our discussion is about the development of satipatthana; here the above advice has no direct relevance. > > Buddha's experience is *not* a method to be followed. He arrived at > > that point purely by conditions, the major of which are the > > perfections of the Parami. He had no idea about the Eightfold path > > and Anatta up until the time when he attained enlightenment. In > > other words his `striving' *was* with self-view, even when the > > divine eye arose to know `kamma and rebirth of beings'. It was only > > after the Eightfold path arose that he understood the meaning of > > Anatta. Of course `self-view' does not arise all the time, but it is > > there as latent tendency. > > Huh? The Eightfold Path arose only after he attained enlightenment? > But he has no need for the Eightfold Path after becoming enlightend. > Like a raft, after using it to reach the other shore, it is abandoned. > Or did I read you wrongly? Only the magga citta can have Nibbana as object at the moment of enlightenment. Yes, I think you misread me. Metta, Sukin. 31717 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:45am Subject: somanassa :-) :-) :-) :-) Dear Sukin, Sarah, Jon, Betty, Shakti, Azita (and anyone else who has, from time to time, put up with my harangues about Soi Dogs) I just KNEW that a Buddhist nation would eventually work out it's own way of humanely handling Homeless Furry Beings. :-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-):-) :-) :-):-) :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --------------------- Buddhist monks befriend Bangkok's stray dogs The Dhamma Times, 25 March 2004 Associated Press, Bangkok - Six grubby dogs slept on the steps of a Buddhist temple here, as monks inside chanted. When the last prayer was intoned, the voice of the abbot crackled over a megaphone: "OK everybody, get out there and grab some dogs!" A dozen monks dressed in saffron robes snapped on surgical gloves, armed themselves with giant nets and fanned out over the grounds. They pulled dogs out from under benches and cars, and plucked them from the shade thrown by statues of the Buddha. The dogs were stuffed into a cage, and sprayed for ticks and fleas. Later, a veterinarian neutered some of the mutts, before setting them free to again roam Bangkok's gutters, back alleys -- and anywhere else they choose. Dog catchers from Buenos Aires to Bangalore use guns and gas to winnow the legions of strays that roam most big cities in the developing world. But don't ask a Thai to put a stray dog to sleep. Buddhism calls for compassion, and forbids killing any animal unnecessarily. But Buddhists also believe in reincarnation -- and many Thais see dogs as people who may have misbehaved in a past life. That is why they don't feel bad about turning unwanted pups into the street to fend for themselves. To cope with all the pooches, devout Buddhists in Bangkok are building "dog condos" run by monks, sterilizing strays and even trying to teach old dogs new tricks by pressing them into police work. Thailand's soi -- or alley -- dogs live in an unusual netherworld: About 30,000 unwanted dogs are dumped each year in Bangkok's back alleys. Many are tossed scraps from streetside food stalls, and left alone to breed and roam. Many Thais see the city's 150,000 homeless hounds as a benign urban presence akin to squirrels. Close contact with tolerant city dwellers has produced a particularly tame breed of stray. But the dogs frighten tourists and represent a health risk, officials say -- so the city council wants them gone. "My priority is to protect the public," says Sompop Chatraporn, the city's Veterinary Public Health director, who is also a Buddhist. "I put my religious beliefs behind my job." Municipal authorities used to quietly euthanize more than 200 dogs a day. But six years ago, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals set up shop in Bangkok and ran a campaign that argued the practice violated Buddhist principles. The city's governor adopted a pro-life dog policy to quell the public outcry. Now, officials neuter strays, then set them free. Bangkok spent about $825,000 caring for street dogs last year, neutering some 42,000 dogs. Recently, city fathers have hit on a new strategy: ship the dogs to the countryside. Bangkok's city council is now building a 30-hectare, $5 million kennel in a small northern town that will house as many as 8,000 dogs -- a fraction of the city's strays. "It would be much easier to do this job in any other Asian country," says Mr. Sompop with a sigh. This represents a difference in culture and cuisine. The Taiwanese, Chinese and Vietnamese are also Buddhist, but dog has long been eaten in those countries so there are fewer canine-rights crusaders there. Dogs have never been part of Thai cuisine. Private veterinarians have also came to the aid of the strays. Kiattisak Rojnirun set up a nonprofit foundation three years ago to fund his own neuter-and-release program. He fixes about 500 soi dogs a month, and treats hundreds more for skin diseases and fleas. He has even done eye surgeries on strays who are going blind. Dr. Kiattisak stages regular roundups near temples, where unwanted dogs are often dumped. Many people jettison pets here hoping that monks -- who, in accordance with Buddhist tradition, hit the streets with big brass bowls at dawn each day to beg for rice -- will share food scraps with the dogs. On a recent day, Dr. Kiattisak, dressed in green hospital scrubs, hauled a cage full of sooty dogs rounded up by monks into his clinic's operating room. A small brown mutt laid on a table waiting to be neutered. Seven heavily drugged dogs in recovery laid in a row, paw to shoulder, on the floor. After their operation, Dr. Kiattisak tattoos their ears and ties on a red cloth collar with a tag to show that he has given them a rabies shot. He keeps them a few weeks, to recuperate, then drives them back to the alley where they were caught. At night, Dr. Kiattisak, who runs a private animal hospital, lights incense and kneels in front of a small altar in his home. "I pray for the dogs, and the people who help me care for them," he says. He also prays for a big donor. His work with strays costs some $17,000 a month, with about a third of that coming from donations, he says. There are other rewards, though. "My work with dogs has made me more spiritual," Dr. Kiattisak says. He notes that one of his staff walked away from a recent head-on collision between his motorbike and a truck. "We've already got good karma coming back." Thailand's animal-loving king, Bhumbibol Adulyadej, adopted a stray of his own in 1998, to set an example for his subjects. In 2002, he wrote an 83-page book, "The Story of Tondaeng," complete with 129 photos (and one X-ray), extolling the virtues of his mixed-breed mutt. Thais rushed to buy the book, but not to adopt dogs. Last year, the deeply revered king changed tack. He asked the police and Department of Parks and Wildlife to employ some strays. Both departments promptly went out and picked up 50 soi dogs each. At a vast national park near the River Kwai, Somsak Monthathong, a forest ranger, demonstrated what his former stray, Boonrad, can do. The wiry black mutt has been trained to attack poachers. On command, the dog charges a volunteer, dressed in protective gear, and latches firmly onto his arm. Not all strays can be trained, says Mr. Somsak. His first recruit, a tall, reddish mutt named Mike Tyson, was one of many dog-school dropouts. Mike refused to do anything but lie in the sun, fighting whenever Mr. Somsak put him on a leash. "He was too independent," he says. "He'd been on his own too long." The Department of Parks and Wildlife plans to create a force of 300 former strays to help rangers protect parks from poachers. The police, meantime, have taught 25 former strays to detect drugs. Another 25 flunked their final sniffing exam after a 20-week training program. They are back in school. North of Bangkok, Payom Kalayano, a taciturn monk who draws thousands of devotees with his fiery sermons, is building what he calls a "dog condominium" for 500 mutts not lucky enough to find a job. He got the idea on a visit to Los Angeles, where he saw a plush dog hotel. "Buddhism teaches us to have mercy," he says. "We need to take care of all living creatures." Already, about 300 strays roam the leafy compound that surrounds his temple. More than 700 homeless people live here as well. Mr. Payom feeds them all with temple donations and the proceeds from the sale of his speeches, books and cassettes. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DhammaTimes/message/2555 31718 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:01am Subject: Re: somanassa :-) :-) :-) :-) Dear Group, And one more link with lots of reports leading to further links, including one for the home for handicapped animals awaiting adoption. "They Call Us Strays .." http://www.nationmultimedia.com/specials/strays/index_jun29.php metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DhammaTimes/message/2555 31719 From: nidive Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jon, > > Though cetana is conditioned by many conditions, yet in no way is > > the function and power of cetana mitigated by way of being > > conditioned thus. > > Well this seems like a contradiction in terms. By definition, being > conditioned surely means being subject to 'outside' forces. Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? I don't understand.?.?.? sign... Having seen for myself what is control without a controller, I am independent of the views of others. I am sharing with others that such a thing is possible. Strive, practise mindfulness immersed in the body without assumption of any self-identity. Such a thing is possible. Don't later fall into regret. Regards, Swee Boon 31720 From: Philip Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:02am Subject: Re: Fever (and pain) Hello Christine, and all. I asked about the "fever" that we find in Ch VII -90 of the Dhammapada, and Chrstine provided the following info: Ch: > Hope this is of some help - from the PTS Dictionary: > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > "Parilaha (p. 435) [pari+daha of dah, cp. paridahati. On change of d > and Q see Geiger, P.Gr. s 423] burning, fever; fig. fever of passion, > consumption, distress, pain > I checked a bilingual version of the Dhammapada at tipitaka.net and found: Gataddhino1 Visokassa vippamuttassa sabbadhi sabbaganthappahinassa2 parilaho na vijjati. Verse 90: For him (an arahat) whose journey is ended, who is free from sorrow and from all (e.g. khandha aggregates), who has destroyed all fetters, there is no more distress. (end quote) This "parilaho" seems to be a kind of physical distress, judging from the following story, also found at Tipitaka.net: The Story of the Question Asked by Jivaka While residing at the mango-grove monastery of Jivaka, the Buddha uttered Verse (90) of this book, with reference to the question raised by Jivaka to the Buddha. Devadatta, on one occasion, tried to kill the Buddha by pushing a big rock from the peak of Gijjhakuta mountain (Vulture's Peak). The rock struck a ledge on the side of the mountain and a splinter struck the big toe of the Buddha. The Buddha was taken to the mango-grove monastery of Jivaka. There, Jivaka, the renowned physician, attended on the Buddha; he put some medicine on the toe of the Buddha and bandaged it. Jivaka then left to see another patient in town, but promised to return and remove the bandage in the evening. When Jivaka returned that night, the city-gates were already closed and he could not come to see the Buddha that night. He was very upset because if the bandage was not removed in time, the whole body would become very hot and the Buddha would be very ill. Just about this time, the Buddha asked Thera Ananda to remove the bandage from his big toe and found that the wound was completely healed. Jivaka came to the monastery early next morning and asked the Buddha whether he felt great pain and distress the previous night. The Buddha replied, "Jivaka! Ever since I attained Buddhahood there has been no pain and distress for me." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 90: For him (an arahat) whose journey is ended, who is free from sorrow and from all (e.g. khandha aggregates), who has destroyed all fetters, there is no more distress. At the end of the discourse many attained Sotapatti Fruition. (end quote) So I see now that according to this story the "fever" is quite literally referring to physical fever and other physical distress rather than the literal notion of passions and emotions running wild. BTW, what is the origin of the Dhammapada stories? Are they part of the Pali canon or do they come from another source? I am very fond of the Dhammapada, so it is very interesting to find stories giving the source of each verse, but I would like to be sure that they are not fictitious. Metta, Phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > BTW, could anyone tell me more about the Pali word that is used > > for "fever? ((Ch. VII line 90 of the Dhammapada) > > > > Metta, > > Phil 31721 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... Paramattha dhammas are single, direct experiential conditions, Jon: As I'm sure you know, the term 'condition' is generally used for the Pali term 'paccaya', to specify the relationship between 2 dhammas. Are you saying that all dhammas are a paccaya (and nothing else)? This would be something I have not seen stated elsewhere. I'd be interested to know where the idea comes from. Howard: and such an event doesn't *have* an attribute or *satisfy* a condition; it *is*a condition. Jon: I presume by 'attribute' here you mean (or would include) characteristic (lakkhana). Whether or not it can be said that a dhamma can *have* a characteristic is no doubt an interesting question, but how useful I'm not sure. The main point to realise about characteristics, I suggest, is that they pertain to the dhammas that appear at this very moment, and so can potentially be known or verified as truly the characteristics of dhammas. There is such a thing as too much intellectualising over the teachings :-)). Howard: Hardness, for example, is not the attribute or property of something; it is an experiential condition. When we think of a table (a conventional object), the paramattha dhammas that pa~n~natti subsumes, including hardness, are thought of as attributes of the table. Jon: I don't quite follow. You say that dhammas do not have attributes, but the example you give here ('hardness is not an attribute of table') is not an example of dhammas *not having* attributes but of a dhamma *not being* an attribute of something else. So can you explain further what you mean by saying that dhammas do not have attributes? Howard: But there is no table, and the hardness is not a property of a (non-existent) table, but is a condition. Our tendency to think of paramattha dhammas (like hardness) as characteristics of conventional objects (like tables), carries over to our thinking about paramattha dhammas, themselves, and expecting them to have properties or satisfy conditions - but they do not, they are what they are, direct, elementary experiential conditions, themselves. Jon: No doubt there is still thinking with wrong view, but then that is why we are urged to reflect on the teachings (as opposed to intellectualise about them) and to relate what has been heard to the present moment. In this regard I am wondering what particular benefit there is to your description of dhammas as 'direct, elementary experiential conditions'. Do you feel this helps us to understand better the dhammas that are arising at the present moment? Jon 31722 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Sarah, Nina and other Pali enthusiasts How are you? Sarah wrote: "The PTS English translation (Section 357 Vibha~nga) is very inadequate and confusing I found, so I won't add it as I'd intended." Does the PTS English translation contain the full list of synonyms of paññaa? On my Cha.t.thasangaayanaa Pali Tipi.taka CD ROM, Section 357, Vibha~nga, does not contain the full list. The full list in my post comes from Section 373, Satipa.t.thaana Sutta A.t.thakathaa, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. As the commenatry mentioned that the list was from Vibha~nga, I included it as Section 357, Vibha~nga for the convenience of the readers. The following list is also the synonyms of paññaa in Section 16, Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam, Dhammasa~nga.nii (the First Book of Abhidhamma). 16. Katamam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti? Yaa tasmim samaye paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa vipassanaa sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi– idam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti. Although the list does not contain "Anupassanaa" as in the list in Vibha~nga, it does contain the terms of Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, namely, pajaananaa (from pajaanaati), and sampajaññam. You could perhaps check the PTS translation of Dhammasanga.nii at Section 16, Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam. See what happens in terms of adequacy and clarity! With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > The quote you gave from the Pali Vibhanga (2nd text of Abhidhamma) was very helpful indeed. The PTS English translation is very inadequate and confusing I found, so I won't add it as I'd intended. I look forward to any further gems you have. Metta, Sarah ====== 31723 From: Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon - I'm not at all confident that I can further clarify what Isaid here, but I'll try. In a message dated 3/25/04 9:21:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > Paramattha dhammas are single, direct experiential > conditions, > > Jon: > As I'm sure you know, the term 'condition' is generally used for the > Pali term 'paccaya', to specify the relationship between 2 dhammas. > Are you saying that all dhammas are a paccaya (and nothing else)? > This would be something I have not seen stated elsewhere. I'd be > interested to know where the idea comes from. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm using the word "condition" as a word of informal English, not a technical term. It simply mean an event or occurence or phenomenon. -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > and such an event doesn't *have* an attribute or *satisfy* a > condition; it *is*a condition. > > Jon: > I presume by 'attribute' here you mean (or would include) > characteristic (lakkhana). Whether or not it can be said that a > dhamma can *have* a characteristic is no doubt an interesting > question, but how useful I'm not sure. The main point to realise > about characteristics, I suggest, is that they pertain to the dhammas > that appear at this very moment, and so can potentially be known or > verified as truly the characteristics of dhammas. There is such a > thing as too much intellectualising over the teachings :-)). -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, this *is* DSG, you know!!! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > Hardness, for example, is not the attribute or property of something; > it is an experiential condition. When we think of a table (a > conventional object), the paramattha dhammas that pa~n~natti > subsumes, including hardness, are thought of as attributes of the > table. > > Jon: > I don't quite follow. You say that dhammas do not have attributes, > but the example you give here ('hardness is not an attribute of > table') is not an example of dhammas *not having* attributes but of a > dhamma *not being* an attribute of something else. So can you > explain further what you mean by saying that dhammas do not have > attributes? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are missing my point here, Jon. What people usually think of as having attributes are conventional entities like tables, trees, and rabbits. The elementary attributes these (actually nonexistent) entities supposedly have, such as hardness, motion, and warmth are paramattha dhammas. But there being no such entities, there are no attributes of them either. All there are are the paramattha dhammas and relations among them. The important point is that there *seem* to be such entities, and they *seem* to have attributes. People then naturally extrapolate from this erroneous thinking, and apply it to things that *do* exist, the paramattha dhammas. If tables have properties, they will think, then so must things like hardness. But that is not so. Hardness is hardness is hardness. There is no more to be said. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > But there is no table, and the hardness is not a property of a > (non-existent) table, but is a condition. Our tendency to think of > paramattha dhammas (like hardness) as characteristics of conventional > objects (like tables), carries over to our thinking about paramattha > dhammas, themselves, and expecting them to have properties or satisfy > conditions - but they do not, they are what they are, direct, > elementary experiential conditions, themselves. > > Jon: > No doubt there is still thinking with wrong view, but then that is > why we are urged to reflect on the teachings (as opposed to > intellectualise about them) and to relate what has been heard to the > present moment. In this regard I am wondering what particular > benefit there is to your description of dhammas as 'direct, > elementary experiential conditions'. Do you feel this helps us to > understand better the dhammas that are arising at the present moment? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no idea of what else they are! They are not imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not complexes. ------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31724 From: Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Matt, Here is my understanding. RE: Kamma and cosmology. Buddhism doesn't really address the universe as a whole (cosmology) but is concerned with the laws by which our mind works. One of these mental laws is the effect of kamma. RE: Coping with material dependency. The whole point of Buddhism is letting go. This involves letting go of our dpendencies on material goods, people, mental states such as anger, thoughts, etc. There is a disagreement on this list on how we learn to let go. My technique and those of many Buddhists is to practice letting go in our meditation each day. We practice letting go of expectations, of the pain in our knee, of thoughts. Jack 31725 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Matt Let me confuse you further, the DSG NAG (non action group) method here is seeing all dhammas are anatta, anicca and dukkha and believing very moments are practising. We dont believe in doing special or deliberate actions, no special actions to do, except encourage you to read a lot, study a lot and listen a lot and at times disturb Sarah alot ;-). You may not wish to disturb me because be warned that I am the barking terrier here. We always in believing "with insight, seeing each present arisen state" Nothing special, except if you like Abdhidhamma we can recommend you tons of materials to spend your time now till Christmas ;-). Ken O 31726 From: Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sarah, Thanks. I think I understand your position now. Is this a good analogy? If I take you to a jazz concert, I might explain the "rules" of jazz, assuming you knew little about jazz. You would then react to jazz differently in the future. You wouldn't have to had done anything but your preceptions would change. I agree with you that being attached to striving or to anything including formal meditation is dangerous. There is the same danger, I think, in being attached to avoiding formal meditation and to studying the suttas. There is a parallel between your non-meditating practice and my meditating practice. I used to notice at times while I meditated that I was attached to clear mind as opposed to letting my mind wander in day dreams. I was attached to seeing what happens arising and passing away as opposed to going to sleep on my cushion. I think that phase was necessary for my practice. Now, I just sit and watch. If I daydream or become attached to a thought or emotion, I just bring my attention back to my breath automatically. Here is another parallel. I have run several marathons (26.2 miles). Training involves getting up very early in the morning and running for 1-2 hours. This is day after day in all kinds of weather. When I started the intensive training leading up to a race, I would have to force myself to get out the door. But, after a couple weeks, I just did it. No will power was involved. There might have been a point in your mental development when you were attached to studying the suttas. Now, it probably is automatic. Be well. Jack I’d like to say a little more on this point too because I think these are such good questions: --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > There is one point I still don't understand about your position. In > your > system, how do you convert conceptual knowledge to experiential > knowledge? Am I > incorrect in saying that you would answer that repeatedly studying the > teachings (conceptual knowledge) results eventually in experiential > knowledge? And, > trying to see/prove the conceptual knowledge by experiencing it involves> trying > and shouldn't be attempted? 31727 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:54am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.5.) § 5.5. On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Alavi on a spread of leaves by a cattle track in a simsapa forest. Then Hatthaka of Alavi, out roaming & rambling for exercise, saw the Blessed One sitting on a spread of leaves by the cattle track in the simsapa forest. On seeing him, he went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I hope the Blessed One has slept in ease." "Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one." "But cold, lord, is the winter night. The 'Between-the-Eights' is a time of snowfall. Hard is the ground trampled by cattle hooves. Thin is the spread of leaves. Sparse are the leaves in the trees. Thin are your ochre robes. And cold blows the Verambha wind. Yet still the Blessed One says, 'Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one.'" "In that case, young man, I will question you in return. Answer as you see fit. Now, what do you think: Suppose a householder or householder's son has a house with a gabled roof, plastered inside & out, draft-free, with close-fitting door & windows shut against the wind. Inside he has a horse-hair couch spread with a long-fleeced coverlet, a white wool coverlet, an embroidered coverlet, a rug of kadali-deer hide, with a canopy above, & red cushions on either side. And there a lamp would be burning, and his four wives, with their many charms, would be attending to him. Would he sleep in ease, or not? Or how does this strike you?" "Yes, lord, he would sleep in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, he would be one." "But what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of passion so that -- burned with those passion-born fevers -- he would sleep miserably?" "Yes, lord." "As for those passion-born fevers -- burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably -- that passion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease. "Now, what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of aversion so that -- burned with those aversion-born fevers -- he would sleep miserably?" "Yes, lord." "As for those aversion-born fevers -- burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably -- that aversion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease. "Now, what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of delusion so that -- burned with those delusion-born fevers -- he would sleep miserably?" "Yes, lord." "As for those delusion-born fevers -- burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably -- that delusion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease. "Always, always, he sleeps in ease: the brahman totally unbound, who doesn't adhere to sensual pleasures, who's without acquisitions & cooled. Having cut all ties & subdued fear in the heart, calmed, he sleeps in ease, having reached peace of awareness." [AN III.34] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31728 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:07am Subject: Kamma Hi all, I would like to start another study corner on kamma/action, using the study guide prepared by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The contents of the study guide are as following: Introduction I. Non-Buddhist Theories II. Skillfulness III. Kamma A. Kamma & Causes B. Results C. Diversity & Cessation 1. Dark Kamma, Bright Kamma 2. Kamma Neither Dark nor Bright I will post the Introduction in my next message. Metta, Victor 31729 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:37am Subject: AN IV.235 - Ariyamagga Sutta Anguttara Nikaya IV.235 Ariyamagga Sutta The Noble Path Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma. "And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication, fabricates an injurious verbal fabrication, fabricates an injurious mental fabrication. Having fabricated an injurious bodily fabrication, having fabricated an injurious verbal fabrication, having fabricated an injurious mental fabrication, he rearises in an injurious world. On rearising in an injurious world, he is there touched by injurious contacts. Touched by injurious contacts, he experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result. "And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a non-injurious bodily fabrication ... a non-injurious verbal fabrication ... a non- injurious mental fabrication ... He rearises in a non-injurious world ... There he is touched by non-injurious contacts ... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Ever-radiant Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result. "And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non- injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. "And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma. "These, monks, are the four types of kamma directly realized, verified, & made known by me." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: MN 57; "Kamma and the Ending of Kamma" in The Wings to Awakening (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-235.html 31730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:31am Subject: Vis. Tiika 69, impermanence. Vis. Tiika 69, impermanence. Vis, 69. 23. 'Impermanence of matter' has the characteristic of complete breaking up. Its function is to make material instances subside. It is manifested as destruction and fall (cf. Dhs. 645). Its proximate cause is matter that is completely breaking up. Vis. Pali: 69. paribhedalakkha.naa ruupassa aniccataa, sa.msiidanarasaa, khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa, paribhijjamaanaruupapada.t.thaanaa. Tiika: Parito sabbaso ²bhijjanan²ti lakkhitabbaati paribhedalakkha.naa. The characteristic of complete breaking up should be defined as being destroyed absolutely and in every respect *. Nicca.m naama dhuva.m, ruupa.m pana kha.nabha"ngitaaya yena bha"ngena na niccanti anicca.m, so aniccassa bhaavoti aniccataa. What is lasting is called permanent, but materiality at the moment of its falling away is not lasting because of its dissolution, and thus it is impermanent, and that state of instability is impermanence. Saa pana yasmaa .thitippatta.m ruupa.m vinaasabhaavena sa.msiidantii viya hotiiti vutta.m ³sa.msiidanarasaa²ti. He said that its function is to make (material instances) subside, since this (impermanence) causes the materiality that has reached (the moments of) presence ** as it were to subside. Yasmaa ca saa ruupadhammaana.m bha"ngabhaavato khayavayaakaareneva gayhati, tasmaa vutta.m ³khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti. And since this (impermanence) because of the state of dissolution of material phenomena should be taken by way of destruction and fall, he said that it is manifested as destruction and fall. *** English: The characteristic of complete breaking up should be defined as being destroyed absolutely and in every respect *. What is lasting is called permanent, but materiality at the moment of its falling away is not lasting because of its dissolution, and thus it is impermanent, and that state of instability is impermanence. He said that its function is to make (material instances) subside, since this (impermanence) causes the materiality that has reached (the moments of) presence** as it were to subside. And since this (impermanence) because of the state of dissolution of material phenomena should be taken by way of destruction and fall, he said that it is manifested as destruction and fall. ______ * The word meaning is partly lost in the translation. The prefix pari of paribheda, breaking up, reinforces the word. The words parito, completely and sabbaso, in every respect, are added. ** Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas decay, jaratå rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, the moment of its falling away. These moments are extremely short. Thus, as soon as rupa is present it is already time for its falling away. Remark: The short definitions in the Vis. can be easily overlooked, and therefore I am glad to see the Tiika text which emphasizes more the facts of decay and impermanence occurring each moment. All rupas of the body are decaying now and they are on the way to complete destruction. This is dukkha and a grim reminder of being in the cycle of birth and death. ***** Nina. 31731 From: Matt Reichel Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Thanks for all the great responses, they helped a ton! I wrote down a bunch to keep in mind. Back to city life though, it was brought up that the material dependences and desires from living in the city are relatively the same (in existence) in the countryside. To a point it is true, the material presence cannot be avoided, but isn't "the city" the paragon and quintessence of avariciousness? But, yet again, I guess it depends on where one is happier living, and can make the best of their beliefs anywhere. Has anybody here gone to any meditation caves? The idea of just being able to withdraw from the society that we know and naturally find ourselves and clear out minds in some of those caves sounds amazing to me. "The bliss of lusts and heaven-world equal not one sixteenth of the bliss of craving's ending." UDAANA 2.2 31732 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:32am Subject: Suffering - terms Hi Nina, Sarah and Kom I was about to post this in another list then I realise that there are a few technicalities that I do not understand, para 448 Just like to share this definition of Dukkha from Dispeller of Delusion para 446 446. .............. Herein this is the list {maatikaa) for the purpose of expounding the Noble truth of suffering; for this suffering is manifold and of various kinds, that is to say ; the suffering as suffering, the suffering in change, the suffering in formations, concealed suffering, exposed suffering, figurative suffering (pariyaaya), literal suffering. 447. Herein bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called “suffering in formations” because of being oppressed by rise and fall. But there is likewise oppression even in the paths and fruition, therefore these states should be understood to be called “suffering of the formations”, by their being included in the Truth of Suffering. 448. Such bodily and mental afflictions as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc are called “concealed suffering” because they can only be known by questioning, and because the attack is not openly evident: they are also called “unevident suffering”. Afflictions produced by the 32 tortures and so on is called “exposed suffering”. Except for suffering as suffering, the rest come down in the Dukkhasaccavibha.nga (Vbh 99). Also all beginning birth are called “figurative suffering” because they are the basis of one or another kind of suffering, but it is “suffering as suffering” that is called “literal suffering” Two questions In para 448, why do we called earache etc as concealed suffering and why they can only be known by questioning - is it because it is slowly attacking our body and we only known after its full symptoms manifested since paramthas dhammas always would have arise and fall many zillions times before they become a manifestation. Are the 32 tortures - talking about the 32 parts which is usually used as the basis for describing the body. Ken O 31733 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:23pm Subject: Kamma - Introduction Introduction The doctrine of kamma (karma -- action) is one of the Buddha's central teachings. There is a modern myth that he simply picked up his ideas on kamma from the worldview prevalent in his day, and that they aren't really integral to his message. Nothing could be further from the truth. Early Buddhists often cited the Buddha's teaching on kamma as one of the prime teachings that set him apart from his contemporaries, and a study of his teachings on kamma will show that they underlie everything else he taught. The following readings from the Pali Canon are designed to give an overview of the Buddha's teachings on kamma. Before tackling them, you might want to read a few introductory articles on the topic, including the following ones available on Access to Insight: "Karma," "A Refuge in Skillful Action" (contained in the book, Refuge), and "Samsara Divided by Zero." The readings here are divided into three main sections: I. Non-Buddhist theories II. Skillfulness III. Kamma The first section provides background for the Buddhist teachings on kamma by showing how the early Buddhists viewed the way other contemporary schools of thought explained kamma. The second section focuses on the Buddha's basic observation that underlay his teachings on kamma: that it is possible to develop a skill. This simple fact carries a number of important implications for any teaching on action. (1) Actions give results, and their results follow a discernible pattern. Otherwise, it would not be possible to develop a skill. (2) Some results are more desirable than others. Otherwise, there would be no point in developing a skill. (3) By observing one's mistakes one may learn from them and use that knowledge to act more skillfully in the future. This means that the mind is a crucial agent in determining actions and their results, and there is an opening for feedback to influence the process of action. It is thus a non-linear process, and there is room for free will. (4) Results can be observed while one is acting, as well as after the action is done. This means that actions have both immediate results and long-term results, a fact that makes the non-linear process very complex. The passages in the second section discuss how these observations apply in practice. §5 discusses how the Buddha applied the principle of skillfulness to reach Awakening. §7 shows how to use it to decide what teachings are valid. §8 discusses how to apply it to all of one's actions. The remaining passages are self-explanatory. The third section, on kamma, consists of passages that build a larger theory of action based on these observations. These passages are divided into three sub-sections, based on a classification given in §14: A. Kamma & Causes B. Results C. Diversity & Cessation Sub-section A is the most theoretical part of this study guide. It covers the Buddha's basic theory of causation (§15) and treats the place of intention -- the factor that the Buddha identified as the essence of kamma -- in the context of the Buddha's analysis of physical and mental phenomena (name-&-form). In the light of the Buddha's observation in §5 that views influence kamma (views come under attention in the analysis of "name"), this sub-section concludes with two levels of right view: mundane right view, which informs the sort of good kamma that brings about happy results within the process of death and rebirth; and transcendent right view, which informs the sort of kamma that brings freedom from that process. Sub-section B focuses on the issue of how long it takes for the results of kamma to appear, and gives particular attention to some of the complexities that arise from the fact that kamma is non- linear. Sometimes the results of an action don't appear immediately, or even in the immediate next life. §27 discusses the role that the mind plays in determining how the results of kamma are experienced, and §28 treats the intelligent way to use the Buddha's teachings on kamma when reflecting on one's own past bad kamma so as to train oneself in the proper frame of mind. Sub-section C is divided into two further sub-sections, based on a classification in §29: 1. Dark Kamma, Bright Kamma 2. Kamma Neither Dark nor Bright The first of these two sub-sections discusses types of actions and mental qualities that lead to good or bad results within the process of rebirth and death. In some passages the emphasis is on results in the present life; in others, on results in future lives. The second of these two sub-sections discusses the type of kamma -- and the right views underlying that kamma -- leading to freedom: the cessation of kamma, the realization of nibbana. The concluding passages make the point that transcendent right view contains the seeds for its own transcendence: once it has done its duty in cutting away other attachments, it creates the momentum so that the mind can then abandon attachment to views of any sort, right or wrong, mundane or transcendent. That is how true freedom is gained. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#intro 31734 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.6.) § 5.6. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Anupiya in the Mango Orchard. Now at that time, Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, would repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" A large number of monks heard Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" and on hearing him, the thought occurred to them, "There's no doubt but that Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha doesn't enjoy leading the holy life, for when he was a householder he knew the bliss of kingship, so that now, on recollecting that, he is repeatedly exclaiming, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" They went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they told him: "Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha, lord, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, repeatedly exclaims, 'What bliss! What bliss!' There's no doubt but that Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha doesn't enjoy leading the holy life, for when he was a householder he knew the bliss of kingship, so that now, on recollecting that, he is repeatedly exclaiming, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" Then the Blessed One told a certain monk, "Come, monk. In my name, call Bhaddiya, saying, 'The Teacher calls you, my friend.'" "As you say, lord," the monk answered and, having gone to Ven. Bhaddiya, on arrival he said, "The Teacher calls you, my friend." "As you say, my friend," Ven. Bhaddiya replied. Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Bhaddiya that, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, you repeatedly exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'?" "Yes, lord." "What meaning do you have in mind that you repeatedly exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'?" "Before, when I was a householder, maintaining the bliss of kingship, I had guards posted within and without the royal apartments, within and without the city, within and without the countryside. But even though I was thus guarded, thus protected, I dwelled in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, on going alone to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, I dwell without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid - - unconcerned, unruffled, my wants satisfied, with my mind like a wild deer. This is the meaning I have in mind that I repeatedly exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: In whom there exists no provocation, for whom becoming & non-becoming are overcome, he is one -- beyond fear, blissful, without grief, whom the devas can't see. [Ud II.10] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31735 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, ... Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? Jon: Now I'm confused too ;-)) But let me try. To say that dhammas are conditioned (i.e., are subject to 'outside forces') is one thing; to say that it is possible to exert influence over dhammas is quite another. The 'outside forces' that operate as conditions have their impact by virtue of certain rules of nature (niyaama). The mental factor of intention is itself one of these conditioning factors, but it acts as conditioning factor only in certain ways, some of them rather indirect, and always according to the laws of nature. It is not a 'wild card'. Swee Boon: Having seen for myself what is control without a controller, I am independent of the views of others. I am sharing with others that such a thing is possible. Jon: I have no idea what 'control' you may be referring to, but as I said in my last post, there are plenty of references to control, mastery etc in the sutta pitaka. So in a relative sense there can be control. But in an absolute sense, because of the conditioned nature of dhammas, I don't think it can be said that dhammas are subject to control. Swee Boon: Strive, practise mindfulness immersed in the body without assumption of any self-identity. Such a thing is possible. Don't later fall into regret. Jon: Certainly striving and mindfulness are possible. As far as striving is concerned, this can be either kusala or akusala and we of course are interested only in the kusala kind. Likewise by mindfulness we are referring to a particular form of kusala and not just anything that could loosely be called 'mindfulness/awareness'. It is important that we understand clearly the difference in practice between the kusala and the akusala, the right and wrong forms, because of our 'practice' is not the former then it will be the latter and we are accumulating all the wrong kinds of latent tendencies. So in this sense also we would not wish to later fall into regret. Hoping i haven't confused things further, Jon 31736 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment (§ 5.6.) Hi all, I wonder in what sense Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha is content... Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 5.6. [snip] > > "What meaning do you have in mind that you repeatedly exclaim, 'What > bliss! What bliss!'?" > > "Before, when I was a householder, maintaining the bliss of > kingship, I had guards posted within and without the royal > apartments, within and without the city, within and without the > countryside. But even though I was thus guarded, thus protected, I > dwelled in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, on > going alone to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty > dwelling, I dwell without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid - > - unconcerned, unruffled, my wants satisfied, with my mind like a > wild deer. This is the meaning I have in mind that I repeatedly > exclaim, 'What bliss! What bliss!'" > > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > > > In whom there exists > no provocation, > for whom becoming & non-becoming > are overcome, > he is one -- beyond fear, > blissful, > without grief, > whom the devas can't see. > > [Ud II.10] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#contentment 31737 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. Hello Suan, it is a beautiful morning here. I have never felt more well, happy and fulfilled in my life. Thank-you for asking. I hope you are feeling equally well. It seems that you have called me out for a dual, of satisfaction at dawn though. It is after my morning meditation and dawn here, so I will join you at the OK coral before my morning smoothy. I have been avoiding this conversation, even though I of course see it as a valiant refutation of my premise that insight (vipassana) was never articulated by the Buddha as a meditation technique, or intellectual or cognitive process, as you seem to be indicating here. I have found the three vehicles of Buddhism have there own agendas that they all claim are the exclusive teachings of the Buddha. However when we examine the discourses of the Buddha, as revealed in the Nikayas we do not see the Buddha using the word 'Boddhisatva' to refer to a practice path in which one rejects enlightenment for the sake off all others. I believe many of you on this list will agree with me that to the historic Buddha, a 'Boddhisatva' was one who was a seeker for enlightenment, not a realizer. In Vajrayana they teach 'Bodhichitta' as though the Buddha uttered that word in every sentence, and yet there is not one single reference to the word in the discourses of the Buddha. It could be argued that the Brahma Viharas, which the Buddha did frequently speak on, are simply 'Bodhichitta,' however he did not harp on the Brahma Viharas like the Vajrayanists want us to think he did, and it was never in the sense of merit greed that Mahayanists tend to place it in. Now, when it comes to Theravadan Buddhism they harp on insight (vipassana) as though it was some pure golden practice strategy that the historic Buddha invented and taught. However when we examine the record of the Discourses of the Buddha we find that the word 'vipassana' was never used a single time to either refer to a practice strategy or a cognitive process, as you Suan here, seem to be arguing. In fact insight seems to be a rather miner concept in the overall teaching strategy of the historic Buddha. Suan's conflating of Vipassana with Satipa.t.thana is what is called the flaw in logic "reaching," in rhetoric and debate. Reaching means that the debater does not have a logically cohesive and truthful argument from which to make his or her point, so they jump over some gap of logic to continue their point. In this argument Suan is resorting to appropriating the concepts and terminology of satipatthana for his purposes to "prove" his point that insight (vipassana) is a practice strategy or a cognitive process. However, this point is fatally flawed. Insight (vipassana) is a subjective experience, a fruit of the attainment of absorption, therefore one can never arrive at insight unless one is in absorption (jhana). In conclusion his premise is hopelessly flawed. The historic Buddha never used the word vipassana in conjunction with a meditation technique or cognitive process. To support one's belief that the Buddha did refer to vipassana as a meditation technique or cognitive process, all one need do is find a canonical reference to support such a belief instead of resorting to posturing and wordy discourses or the appropriation of terms like mindfulness (sati) and wisdom (panna) to support this rather flimsy claim. Just as a side point of reference of perspective. The word 'insight' (vipassana) only occurs in the glossaries 12 times in the three published volumes of the discourses of the Buddha (Majjhima, Digha and Samyutta Nikayas). Whereas absorption (jhana) occurs in the glossaries of these three Nikayas 33 times. Just in glossary references alone, it seems clear to me absorption (jhana) had almost three times the importance to the historic Buddha than did insight (vipassana). So, why is there a disproportionate emphasis on insight within Theravadan Buddhism? Insight (vipassana) (1x) DN: 14.21, n.273 (6x) MN: 6.3, 32.5, 43.14, 73.18, 77.29, 151.19 (5x) SN: 1253, 1324, 1373, 1374, 1558 Absorptions (jhanas) (6x) DN 22, 42, 1.3.21f., n.79, n.50, n.57, n.76f., 2.75ff., 4.33, n.168, 9.10ff., 16.6.8f., 17.2.3, n.583, n.611, 26.28, 29.24, 33.3.3(6), n.1118, n.1127, n.1143 (9x) MN: 6.9, 36.31, 45.7, 53.18, 59.7, 66.21, 107.10, 108.27, 139.9 (18x) SN: 143,146,147,148, 251-52, 671-72, 713, 1015-16, 1271-72, 1276-77, 1284-85, 1302-5, 1670, 1672, 1684-85, 1760, 1762-64, 1771 It would be very interesting for someone with the Pali CD of the Tipitaka to simply check on the occurrences of key Pali terms, such as jhana, vipassana, Bodhichitta, Bodhisattva, sukha, piiti etc. Just by simply knowing the frequency of occurrence of these key terms, I believe we can come to a simple conclusion of what was of central importance to the historic Buddha. Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks --------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 14:18:27 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Satipa.t.thana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam : To Jeffery Dear Jeff How are you? I will write a seprate reply to your thread (the issue of rewriting). For now, please read my reply to Herman, Howard and Stephen. You might enjoy it. Suan __________ _____________ ______ Dear Dhamma friends How are you? The following contains a refutation of Jeffery Brooks's wrong views and misrepresentation of Satapa.t.thaana Suttam. 31738 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:10am Subject: Kamma - Introduction Introduction The doctrine of kamma (karma -- action) is one of the Buddha's central teachings. There is a modern myth that he simply picked up his ideas on kamma from the worldview prevalent in his day, and that they aren't really integral to his message. Nothing could be further from the truth. Early Buddhists often cited the Buddha's teaching on kamma as one of the prime teachings that set him apart from his contemporaries, and a study of his teachings on kamma will show that they underlie everything else he taught. The following readings from the Pali Canon are designed to give an overview of the Buddha's teachings on kamma. Before tackling them, you might want to read a few introductory articles on the topic, including the following ones available on Access to Insight: "Karma," "A Refuge in Skillful Action" (contained in the book, Refuge), and "Samsara Divided by Zero." The readings here are divided into three main sections: I. Non-Buddhist theories II. Skillfulness III. Kamma The first section provides background for the Buddhist teachings on kamma by showing how the early Buddhists viewed the way other contemporary schools of thought explained kamma. The second section focuses on the Buddha's basic observation that underlay his teachings on kamma: that it is possible to develop a skill. This simple fact carries a number of important implications for any teaching on action. (1) Actions give results, and their results follow a discernible pattern. Otherwise, it would not be possible to develop a skill. (2) Some results are more desirable than others. Otherwise, there would be no point in developing a skill. (3) By observing one's mistakes one may learn from them and use that knowledge to act more skillfully in the future. This means that the mind is a crucial agent in determining actions and their results, and there is an opening for feedback to influence the process of action. It is thus a non-linear process, and there is room for free will. (4) Results can be observed while one is acting, as well as after the action is done. This means that actions have both immediate results and long-term results, a fact that makes the non-linear process very complex. The passages in the second section discuss how these observations apply in practice. §5 discusses how the Buddha applied the principle of skillfulness to reach Awakening. §7 shows how to use it to decide what teachings are valid. §8 discusses how to apply it to all of one's actions. The remaining passages are self-explanatory. The third section, on kamma, consists of passages that build a larger theory of action based on these observations. These passages are divided into three sub-sections, based on a classification given in §14: A. Kamma & Causes B. Results C. Diversity & Cessation Sub-section A is the most theoretical part of this study guide. It covers the Buddha's basic theory of causation (§15) and treats the place of intention -- the factor that the Buddha identified as the essence of kamma -- in the context of the Buddha's analysis of physical and mental phenomena (name-&-form). In the light of the Buddha's observation in §5 that views influence kamma (views come under attention in the analysis of "name"), this sub-section concludes with two levels of right view: mundane right view, which informs the sort of good kamma that brings about happy results within the process of death and rebirth; and transcendent right view, which informs the sort of kamma that brings freedom from that process. Sub-section B focuses on the issue of how long it takes for the results of kamma to appear, and gives particular attention to some of the complexities that arise from the fact that kamma is non- linear. Sometimes the results of an action don't appear immediately, or even in the immediate next life. §27 discusses the role that the mind plays in determining how the results of kamma are experienced, and §28 treats the intelligent way to use the Buddha's teachings on kamma when reflecting on one's own past bad kamma so as to train oneself in the proper frame of mind. Sub-section C is divided into two further sub-sections, based on a classification in §29: 1. Dark Kamma, Bright Kamma 2. Kamma Neither Dark nor Bright The first of these two sub-sections discusses types of actions and mental qualities that lead to good or bad results within the process of rebirth and death. In some passages the emphasis is on results in the present life; in others, on results in future lives. The second of these two sub-sections discusses the type of kamma -- and the right views underlying that kamma -- leading to freedom: the cessation of kamma, the realization of nibbana. The concluding passages make the point that transcendent right view contains the seeds for its own transcendence: once it has done its duty in cutting away other attachments, it creates the momentum so that the mind can then abandon attachment to views of any sort, right or wrong, mundane or transcendent. That is how true freedom is gained. 31739 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:19pm Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. Hi Jeff, I would also recommend the following article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu: One Tool Among Many The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: [snip] > > Dhammapada Verse 372 > > Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, > Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom > (panna), > No wisdom without absorption. > One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) > has both wisdom and absorption." > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31740 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Hi Howard, op 25-03-2004 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: ============================ > On the other hand, there is the following from the Sammaditthi Sutta: > _______________________________ .... The way leading to the cessation of > ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right > concentration. 67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, the > origin of > ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of > ignorance... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a > noble > disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." > _______________________________ H: So, ignorance is not always complete and all-encompassing. If it were, > there would be no escaping from it. But one's ignorance can come to be known, > and in so knowing it, it can disappear at that very moment, or at least the > movement towards its eventual demise can begin. N:thank you for the passage with your comments, I appreciate this very much. Eznir wrote: The uninstructed person is someone who has not heard Dhamma. That makes all the difference! Nina. 31741 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Small reminders Dear Azita, op 25-03-2004 11:38 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > The sound that is heard now does not hear anything. > > We overlook the obvious all the time, especially Nama, the > experience which makes it possible to experience colour right now. > > One's understanding has to learn to know the obvious, not to > overlook what is staring one in the face. N: Thank you very much. Visible object is staring at me now! Seeing is so obvious, but we forget. Nina. 31742 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Larry and Matt, Welcome to this group, Mat. Larry, may I just make one distinction. See below. op 25-03-2004 00:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What are the 4 planes of existence? How does one come to be reborn into > each? N: There are two types of plane, bhumi. Planes of citta and planes of existence. As to planes of citta, there are four: sensesphere, rupajhanaplane, arupajhana plane and lokuttara plane. These planes indicate the type of object citta experiences, they are not worlds where one is born. The cittas arising for us in daily life experience sense objects, these cittas are called kamaavacara cittas, cittas frequenting sense objects (avacara is frequenting). The others are jhanacittas and lokuttara cittas. Planes of existence: there are thirtyone planes: woeful planes and happy planes. There are lively descriptions of deva worlds. These are conventional terms indicating the pleasant objects experienced, due to their kusala kamma. Larry, I like your questions: L:What are the kamma resultant consciousnesses and kamma initiating > consciousnesses in the 3 mundane planes? What are the kamma resultant > consciousnesses and the functional volitional consciousnesses in the > supramundane plane? Nina. 31743 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Friends, I sent a few brief comments back to Bhikkhu Bodhi in response to his on this subject and I'll pass on any further feedback if he gives any. I'd also be glad of any other comments on my logic or detail from any commentaries that Suan, Nina or anyone may have. (My comments are rather cryptic, but I'm happy to elaborate on them) ***** > BB: > On the status of the space element: I tried to do > some research on this, but > could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may > be correct. I had always > assumed that the defining mark of a > paramattha-dhamma according to the > Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna > ("existing through > intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me > think this may not be > correct. ..... S: I’d like to make a few comments with respect if I may and perhaps I can put them in point form. I’m not sure if any logic will be apparent and please ignore it if you’d prefer or are busy. Of course comments on any errors are most welcome. 1.CMA, 1#2 Fourfold paramattha-dhammas (inc *all* rupas as I understand) 2. Summary & Exposition (Wijeratne & Gethin transl)p7 explanation to above defines rupas here as ‘the aggregate of materiality differentiated as the elements and dependent [materialities] (upaadaruupa) 3. CMA,V1#5 28 Rupas inc. anipphannaruupa inc in upaadaruupa 4. CMA V1, 2, guide 2 Upaadaaya ruupa ‘are material phenomena derived from, or dependent upon, the four great essentials. these are twenty-four in number.’ 5. Exposition p230 refers to conditioned nature etc of all rupas. 6. Vism 1, n14 from Pm 40-41 “ ‘But these are simply modes of interpreting (sannivesaakaara) the kinds of materiality derived from the (four) primaries that are interpreted (sannivi.t.tha) in such and such wise; for apart from that there is in the ultimate sense [paramattho] no such thing as a hand and so on’.” I assume ‘that’ refers to the four primaries and derived rupas here. 7. Paramattha dhammas refer to the same realities as the khandhas + nibbana. Vism X1V,72 under ‘the Aggregates’ “So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less. And all that [matter of twenty-eight sorts] is of one kind as ‘not root-cause, root-causeless, dissociated from root-cause, with conditions, mundane, subject to cankers’ (Dhs#5840, and so on.” 8. As I understand, space (akaasaa ruupa) has a characteristic which can be known and is included in the khandhas, the aayatanas and the dhaatus - all of which consist of paramattha dhammas only. ...... BB: >It would not be enough, though, merely to > bring forth rational > arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote > texts that establish that > space is paramattha without being sabhAvato > vijjamAna. .... S: Going back to the first two points above, surely here in the prologue to CMA and its commentary, paramattha is clearly defined in terms of all cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana without exceptions and as elaborated on in the main text? ..... BB: >Such distinctions are > unlikely to be made even in the Abhidhamma > commentaries (though I might be > wrong). One would have to go down to texts of a > still more technical nature, > like the Abhidhamma tikas (sub-commentaries), and it > is difficult to find > anyone who knows these well. .... S: This is where I’m very grateful for those translations (like the excellent one of Sammohavinodanii) that are available. I checked the Kathavatthu and comy for more detail, esp in the first chapter where it discusses how a person is not a paramattha dhamma in the way that khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus etc are. But only some examples are given of each, so it may not satisfy you. ..... BB: >Here I > don't have access to > these texts, and the headache makes delving into > such abstruse but > interesting questions difficult. ..... S: Sometimes abstruse questions lead to others too! Please take care of your headaches. < ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 31744 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Does the PTS English translation contain the full list of synonyms of > paññaa? On my Cha.t.thasangaayanaa Pali Tipi.taka CD ROM, Section > 357, Vibha~nga, does not contain the full list. .... Thank you for explaining this. Now I understand and retract my earlier comments. This is why I was so confused because, just as you say, section 357 doesn’t include the full list. However, one is directed in the middle of the list to section 525 which has a very exhaustive list under Awareness. You might like to check this. (sorry, too busy to type it out now). Perhaps if you check the Pali for this, I can then add the English below it if it would be useful. ..... > The full list in my post comes from Section 373, Satipa.t.thaana > Sutta A.t.thakathaa, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa. > > As the commenatry mentioned that the list was from Vibha~nga, I > included it as Section 357, Vibha~nga for the convenience of the > readers. .... I think they all cross-reference. Btw, the PTS Vibhanga transl comes from the Burmese Cha.t.thasa’ngiiti ed accord to a note at the front. Unfortunately no Pali words are included so one really needs the Pali handy as well. ... > The following list is also the synonyms of paññaa in Section 16, > Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam, Dhammasa~nga.nii (the First Book of > Abhidhamma). > > 16. Katamam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti? Yaa > tasmim samaye paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo > sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa > pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa > upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa vipassanaa > sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam > paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso > paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi– > idam tasmim samaye paññindriyam hoti. > > Although the list does not contain "Anupassanaa" as in the list in > Vibha~nga, it does contain the terms of Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, > namely, pajaananaa (from pajaanaati), and sampajaññam. > > You could perhaps check the PTS translation of Dhammasanga.nii at > Section 16, Cittuppaada Ka.n.dam. See what happens in terms of > adequacy and clarity! ... Yes, this is given in full - OK very briefly, it’s a transl by Mrs Rhys Davids (your favourite, Suan;-)). “The inisght which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a ‘guide’, intuition, intelligence, a ‘goad’; wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height [in the sense of sth lofty], wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there then is.” There are various footnote to where some of these uses occur in the suttas. Metta, Sarah ===== 31745 From: Charles Thompson Date: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology If I may, imho, it is our mind (or heart) that frees us or limits us whether we are in a city or in the countryside. A room in a condo, a room in a Buddhist temple or a cave can all serve the same purpose - the only difference is in our perception... offered with sincere metta (maitri), Chuck Hi Thanks for all the great responses, they helped a ton! I wrote down a bunch to keep in mind. Back to city life though, it was brought up that the material dependences and desires from living in the city are relatively the same (in existence) in the countryside. To a point it is true, the material presence cannot be avoided, but isn't "the city" the paragon and quintessence of avariciousness? But, yet again, I guess it depends on where one is happier living, and can make the best of their beliefs anywhere. Has anybody here gone to any meditation caves? The idea of just being able to withdraw from the society that we know and naturally find ourselves and clear out minds in some of those caves sounds amazing to me. "The bliss of lusts and heaven-world equal not one sixteenth of the bliss of craving's ending." UDAANA 2.2 31746 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your extensive explanation. But temperature is just a translated term and it does not exactly equate with utu, I think. Temperature in conventional term ( that is from view of science ) is just a part of physics while utu covers all rupa things. I mean even though it is right to say 'temperature' it definition is more than 'temperature' in physics. Thanks again for your time. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 23-03-2004 19:00 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Could you please explain the relationship between temperature and > > rupa? Is utu exactly temperature? > N: Utu: PED: season, condition of climate. In the context of the Abh: tejaa > dhaatu: Element of Fire or heat. It can be translated as temperature, being > heat or cold. > It is one of the four great Elements and 31747 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:15am Subject: Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your explanation and for your precious time. Your post is clear. But one question. Why can pannatta not be the object of mahasatipatthana? Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > Good to see you back from your trip and even breaking into verse;-) > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > S: As we discussed before, we cannot say all dhammaarammana are > > dhamma-ayatana. Thoughts (of the dove) are concepts and objects > > (arammana)of citta, but only paramattha dhammas are ayatanas (sense > > bases). 31748 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamupada Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/26/04 12:19:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > > op 25-03-2004 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ============================ > >On the other hand, there is the following from the Sammaditthi Sutta: > >_______________________________ > .... The way leading to the cessation of > >ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right > >concentration. 67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, > the > >origin of > >ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation > of > >ignorance... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a > >noble > >disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." > >_______________________________ > H: So, ignorance is not always complete and all-encompassing. If it were, > >there would be no escaping from it. But one's ignorance can come to be > known, > >and in so knowing it, it can disappear at that very moment, or at least the > >movement towards its eventual demise can begin. > N:thank you for the passage with your comments, I appreciate this very much. > Eznir wrote: uninstructed person it is intrinsically impossible to know that he is > ignorant..> > The uninstructed person is someone who has not heard Dhamma. That makes all > the difference! > Nina ============================ Yes, hearing the Dhamma is the critical opening - the primary breaching of our wall of ignorance. But if the ignorance were complete to begin with, the Dhamma could find no way in. The shell of ignorance must have, and does have, some cracks in it from the outset. If people had no recognition of their dukkha at all or if they were fully immersed in self, the Dhamma would fall on deaf ears. Fortunately, all people from all backgrounds and culture, just by virtue of being human have at least some slight insight into the way things are, at least a sense of things being not unconditionally perfect. Everybody who lives long enough becomes conventionally aware of impermanence, of not being able to perfectly control events, of aging and illness, of not getting what one wants, of having what one dislikes, and of loss ... sorrowful loss. And despite how much one fulls oneself with theories and beliefs to the contrary, everyone, in his/her heart of hearts knows that "somthing is wrong" and constantly looks for "a way out". This is the fertile ground in which the seeds of all religions sprout. Most of these seeds have limited germinating capacity, producing only stunted growths with only small and shortlived flowerings. But the seed of Dhamma, especially when planted in particularly fertile soil, and when properly watered and nourished, can sprout and grow into the Bodhi tree, itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31749 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:01am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Sarah Thank you for posting translation excerpt on synonyms of paññaa from Mrs Rhys Davids's pioneering work. I notice that she translated Vipassanaa as intuition and sampajaññam as intelligence. The following is Pali passage from Section 525, Vibha~nga. 525. "Sampajaano"ti tattha katamam sampajaññam? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuuriimedhaa pari.naa yikaa vipassanaa sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadiµµhi– idam vuccati "sampajaññam". Iti imaaya ca satiyaa iminaa ca sampajaññena upeto hoti …pe… samannaagato. Evam bhikkhu sato sampajaano abhikkamati, sato sampajaano pa.tikkamati, sato sampajaano aaloketi, sato sampajaano viloketi, sato sampajaano samiñjeti, sato sampa jaano pasaareti, sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, sa~nghaa.tipattaciivara dhaara.ne sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, asite piite khaayite saayite sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, uccaarapassaavakamme sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, gate .thite nisinne sutte jaagarite bhaasite tu.nhiibhaave sampajaanakaarii hoti. If you could add English translation, it would be very useful for the readers who want to practice Sampajaññam meditation. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Does the PTS English translation contain the full list of synonyms of > paññaa? On my Cha.t.thasangaayanaa Pali Tipi.taka CD ROM, Section > 357, Vibha~nga, does not contain the full list. .... Thank you for explaining this. Now I understand and retract my earlier comments. This is why I was so confused because, just as you say, section 357 doesn't include the full list. However, one is directed in the middle of the list to section 525 which has a very exhaustive list under Awareness. You might like to check this. (sorry, too busy to type it out now). Perhaps if you check the Pali for this, I can then add the English below it if it would be useful. ..... Metta, Sarah ===== 31750 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:10am Subject: Do Samatha, Then Move On To Vipassana Just Like The Buddha Dear Sarah, Nina, Jon, Mike Niece and all How are you? The following is my reply to Yu Zhonghao on the subject of Samatha Practice and Vipassanaaa Practice. Please enjoy it. :-) Suan Lu Zaw ___________ ________ ____ ______ ____ Dear Victor, Chris, Jeff and all How are you? Thanks, Victor, for posting Vijjaabhaagiya Suttam translation. I have read some Suttams in Pali that contain the terms "Samatha and Vipassanaa" explained by the Buddha. The reason that I haven't quoted so far those Suttams with the term "Vipassanaa" is that I would like to highlight the whole Pali Tipi.taka as the body of teachings oriented towards Vipassanaa. It is not my purpose to play word-game with Jeff Brooks or anyone else. Jeff's method of quoting selective Suttam passages that support his personal views may sound scholarly, but, regrettably, is no different from the practices of high school students engaging in trivial debating contest. Victor, please refer to my earlier posts such as "Satipa.t.thaana Suttam As Vipassanaa Suttam" where you will see that I showed how the Buddha first taught Samatha such as observing exhalation and inhalation, and then moved on to teaching Vipassanaa. THe Buddha did not have to say that such and such portion of the Suttam was Samatha, and such and such portion of it was Vipassanaa. This type of Suttam analysis and identifying or inferring technical terms such as Vipassanaa (from the Suttam statements) are the functions of the Theravada commentators as I did in my posts by quoting from the standard Pali Commentaries. I hope that Jeffery Brooks can follow and understand the type and level of discussion I offer. It is too easy to blame ancient and modern traditional Theravada commentators when one's personal views are not supported by them. If one believes that one's personal views were so precious and valuable, it is best that one kept them to oneself. Why bother seeking the support of Theravada Bhikkhu Samgha and their traditional followers for one's personal views? No need to attack Theravada Bhikkhu Samgha and their traditional followers who practice pure Vipassanaa if one finds Vipassanaa practice to be unpalatable. The Buddha has left different Suttams with different emphases on Samatha and Vipassanaa in Pali Tipi.taka. It is the business of each individual to try out which suits one best. For the majority of Buddhist householders, though, the Samatha practice for attainment of Ruupa Jhaanas and Aruupa Jhaanas may prove to be beyond their reach. Samatha for Jhaanas would require one to leave everything behind such as spouses, sons, daughters, parents, friends, jobs, professions, education for degrees and livelihood skills and the like. For such householders, the best course of action would be pure Vipassanaa practice that can be done anywhere, any time, in any situation without having to leave homes, spouses, parents, sons, daughters, siblings, and friends. In addition to liberational insight, Vipassanaa practice is also intellectually very enriching because the Buddha has taught very intellectual discourses for Vipassanaaa such as Dependent Origenation, the Four Noble Truths, the Five Psychosomatic Aggregates, the Three Characteristics, among others, and the whole Abhidhamma Pi.taka. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www,bodhiology.org "yu_zhonghao" wrote: Hi Suan, What is up? I would recommend the following discourse regarding samatha & vipassana. Both tranquillity and insight are to be developed. Metta, Victor Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: AN IX.43; AN IX.44; AN IX.45; SN XII.70. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-030.html Metta, Victor "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Jeff, Chris and all How are you? Chris quoted from Digha Nikaya, Sutta 16: "The First Truth has to be understood. The Second Truth has to be abandoned. The Third Truth has to be realised. The Fourth Truth has to be developed." The post written by Chris does not contain the term "Vipassanaa", but it is about Vipassanaa practice because it will end the First Noble Truth of Suffering. Jeff, why are you so afraid of the term "Vipassanaa"? Are you afraid of the Four Noble Truths? Teachings on the Four Noble Truths may or may not contain the term "Vipassanaa", but they are the principles that a practitioner of Vipassanaa must work with until the liberational insight (Vipassanaa) is realized. For a Buddhist who is bent on ending the First Noble Truth of Suffering, Vipassanaa is far more important than being stuck in the Ruupa and Aruupa Jhaanas. In the First Dhamma Wheel Turning Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam), the Buddha explicitly asked us to get rid of kaama ta.nhaa, bhava ta.nhaa, and vibhava ta.nhaa. Bhava ta.nhaa is attachment to Ruupa bhavas (Lives reborned through Ruupa Jhaana) and Aruupa bhavas (Lives reborned through Aruupa Jhaana). The Buddha's instruction to eradicate attachment to rebirths through Jhaanas leaves us to understand that we must also eradicate attachment to Ruupa Jhaanas (Ruupa ta.nhaa) and attachment to Aruupa Jhaanas (Aruupa ta.nhaa), and that Samatha Jhaanas without the Vipassanaa base are worthless. I hope that Jeff understands the implications of the Buddha's Dhamma Wheel Turning Discourse and begins to embrace Vipassanaa practice in order to demolish his present attachment to Samatha Jhaanas. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org 31752 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:31am Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.1., § 6.2.) § 6.1. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain lay follower from Icchanangalaka had arrived in Savatthi on some business affairs. Having settled his affairs in Savatthi, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "At long last you have managed to come here." "For a long time I have wanted to come see the Blessed One, lord, but being involved in one business affair after another, I have not been able to do so." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: How blissful it is, for one who has nothing who has mastered the Dhamma, is learned. See how they suffer, those who have something, people bound in body with people. [Ud II.5] § 6.2. "'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, when living in seclusion, is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples. With his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave. 'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one in entanglement.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. [AN VIII.30] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31753 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:36am Subject: Kamma - I. Non-Buddhist Theories - § 1. § 1. "Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that -- when cross- examined, pressed for reasons, & rebuked by wise people -- even though they may explain otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] inactivity. Which three? "There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all caused by what was done in the past.' There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation.' There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all without cause & without condition.' "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative... "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings... a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation.' When one falls back on a supreme being's act of creation as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative... "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all without cause, without condition,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all without cause, without condition?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings without cause, without condition. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... an abusive speaker... an idle chatterer... covetous... malevolent... a holder of wrong views without cause, without condition.' When one falls back on lack of cause and lack of condition as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative." [AN III.61] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#nonbuddhist 31754 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:08am Subject: nutrition, Vis. 70 (Quote from my Rupas): Nutrition is another kind of rúpa which has to arise with every kind of materiality. It can be exerienced only through the mind-door. The ³Dhammasangaùi² (§ 646) mentions food such as boiled rice, sour gruel, flour, etc., which can be eaten and digested into the ³juice² by which living beings are kept alive. The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Ch III, 330) explains that there is foodstuff, the substance which is swallowed (kabalinkåro åhåro, literally, morsel-made food), and the ³nutritive essence²(ojå). The foodstuff which is swallowed fills the stomach so that one does not grow hungry. The nutritive essence present in food preserves beings, keeps them alive. The nutritive essence in gross foodstuff is weak, and in subtle foodstuff it is strong. After eating coarse grain one becomes hungry after a brief interval. But when one has taken ghee (butter) one does not want to eat for a long time (Atthasåliní, 331). The ³Atthasåliní²(332) gives the following definition of nutriment: As to its characteristic, etc., solid food has the characteristic of nutritive essence, the function of fetching matter (to the eater), of sustaining matter as its manifestation, of substance to be swallowed as proximate cause. Nutritive essence is not only present in rice and other foods, it is also present in what we call a rock or sand. It is present in any kind of materiality. Insects are able to digest what human beings cannot digest, such as, for example, wood. Nutrition is one of the four factors which produce rúpas of the body. As we have seen, the other factors are kamma, citta and temperature. In the unborn being in the mother¹s womb, groups of rúpa produced by nutrition arise as soon as the nutritive essence present in food taken by its mother pervades its body (Visuddhimagga XVII, 194). From then on nutrition keeps on producing rúpas and sustaining the rúpas of the body throughout life. We can notice that nutrition produces rúpas when good or bad food affects the body in different ways. Bad food may cause the skin to be ugly, whereas the taking of vitamins for example may cause skin and hair to look healthy.... In the Commentary to the ³Satipatthåna Sutta² [1], in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, ³Clear Comprehension in Partaking of Food and Drink², we read that, when one swallows food, there is no one who puts the food down into the stomach with a ladle or spoon, but there is the element of wind performing its function. We then read about digestion: ... There is no one who having put up an oven and lit a fire is cooking each lump standing there. By only the process of caloricity (heat) the lump of food matures. There is no one who expels each digested lump with a stick or pole. Just the process of oscillation (the element of wind or motion) expels the digested food. There is no self who eats and drinks, there are only elements performing their functions. Whatever kind of materiality arises, there have to be the four Great Elements and the four derived rúpas of visible object, odour, flavour and nutrition. Footnote 1. The Papañcasúdaní. See ³The Way of Mindfulness², a translation of the Satipatthåna Sutta, Middle Length Sayings I, 10, and its Commentary, by Ven. Soma, B.P.S. Kandy. 31755 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:08am Subject: D.O. Formations. Dear all, Avijjaapaccayaa sa²nkhaara: ignorance conditions formations. Instead of sa²nkhaara also the term aabhisa²nkhaara is used. Aabhi is used in the sense of preponderance. Abhisankhara is volition, it is kamma. Using the Vis. quote that Ken O posted: N: The Vis then explains that kamma can be performed through body, speech and mind. We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² Ch 5, 647, the explanation according to the Suttanta: <647. Herein, the first triad is taken in accordance with the Parivimamsanasutta (S II 80). For therein it is said: ³If he forms a formation of merit, consciousness achieves merit; if he forms a formation of demerit, consciousness achieves demerit; if he forms a formation of the imperturbable, consciousness achieves the imperturbable². The second triad is taken in accordance with the Vibhangasutta next to that [footnote: this is: S II, 4]. (It is permissable to say that it is taken in accordance with the method of the Sammaditthisutta, M I 54, too.) For therein it is said: ³Three, bhikkhus are the formations. Which three? The bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation.² 648. But why are these taken in accordance with these suttas? This Abhidhamma is not newly made; nor is it spoken by sages outside [the dispensation], nor by disciples, nor by deities. But this is spoken by the Omniscient Conquerer. It is in order to illustrate this meaning that a single textual passage is set forth in like manner in the Abhidhamma and in the suttas....> Nina. 31756 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:08am Subject: gross and subtle food Hi Larry, I read in the Expositor (II, p.431) about subtle and gross food: This makes it more comprehensible that there is nutritive essense in rupas that form up stones. Termites like wooden poles, etc. It depends on beings' inclinations and the capacity of their digestive system. Nina. 31757 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: Kamma - I. Non-Buddhist Theories - § 1. Hi all, I would highlight the following wrong view and the result of that wrong view: "There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences -- pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful -- that is all caused by what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 1. > "Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that -- when cross- [snip] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#nonbuddhist 31758 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? Jon: Now I'm confused too ;-)) I don't recall having anything to say on the expression "exerting influence" in this thread. But looking back, I notice this comment of yours in a post to Ken O: <> so let me pick it up from there. In terms of the words 'influence' and 'force' there is no difference as far as I'm concerned. The only difference I would see between the 2 expressions in your question to me is this: that when we say "is conditioned" or "is subject to 'outside' forces" we are speaking from the point of view of the conditioned dhamma ('B' in your example above), whereas when we say "is exerting influence over" we are speaking from the point of view of the conditioning dhamma ('A' in your example), so it depends which of the 2 is the focus of our interest. If the focus is 'B', then I think the proper equivalent expression would be "is subject to influence". Not sure if this clarifies anything or takes the discussion further ;-)) Swee Boon: Having seen for myself what is control without a controller, I am independent of the views of others. I am sharing with others that such a thing is possible. Jon: I'm glad for you for any insights you may have had, but let's not forget that there's still plenty to be known. As I said in my last post, there are in fact frequent references to control, mastery etc in the sutta pitaka, so there is no argument from me on the point that in a relative sense there can be control. But, as I read the texts, in an absolute sense, because of the conditioned nature of dhammas, it cannot be said that dhammas are subject to control. Swee Boon: Strive, practise mindfulness immersed in the body without assumption of any self-identity. Such a thing is possible. Don't later fall into regret. Jon: Certainly striving and mindfulness are possible. As far as striving is concerned, this can be either kusala or akusala, and we of course are interested only in the kusala kind. Likewise by mindfulness we are not referring to just anything that could loosely be called 'mindfulness/awareness' but to a particular form of kusala that is the key to the development of the path and escape from samsara. It is important that we understand clearly the difference in practice between the kusala and the akusala, the right and wrong forms, because of our 'practice' is not the former then it will be the latter and we are going in totally the wrong direction. In this sense also we would not wish to later fall into regret. Jon 31759 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Nina, Thanks for the correction. There is no supramundane plane of existence. Can supramundane consciousnesses with nibbana as object arise in any of the 31 planes of existence? Are the 31 planes divided into sensuous, fine-material, and immaterial? Larry 31760 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Vism.XIV 70 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 70. 24. 'Physical nutriment' has the characteristic of nutritive essence. Its function is to feed kinds of matter. It is manifested as consolidating. Its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed with physical food. It is a term for the nutritive essence by means of which living beings sustain themselves (cf. Dhs. 646). 31761 From: Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 70 Hi Nina, What is a "physical basis"? A living being or maybe just one of the groups with life faculty? I notice that nutriment doesn't produce living groups of matter. This seems a little odd. Only kamma produces living matter. What about genetic engineering, skin grafts, transplants, artificial body parts etc.? I was wondering about Sarah's food poisoning. It seems that we can't really say nutriment is akusala because that designation is reserved only for consciousness, but Vism. note 35 says kusala is " 'profitable' in the sense of health..." and " 'unprofitable' is the opposite". Is poison akusala or just undesirable (ani.t.tha)? Larry ---------------------- "70. 24. 'Physical nutriment' has the characteristic of nutritive essence. Its function is to feed kinds of matter. It is manifested as consolidating. Its proximate cause is a physical basis that must be fed with physical food. It is a term for the nutritive essence by means of which living beings sustain themselves (cf. Dhs. 646)." 31762 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:21pm Subject: Exerting influence vs. Conditioned (was. the self. . . how?/Jack) Swee Boon Me again. Having just re-read my last message, I think I now see the point of your earlier question, What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" and "exerting 'influence'"? You are saying that if dhammas are subject to influence, it means they can be influenced, that is to say, that we can exert influence over them. I don’t think that follows at all. Dhammas are subject to influence only in the sense that they are subject of the general law of nature (niyaama), or the 'rules' of dependent origination. They are not subject to influence *by us*. Hope I've now understood your point. Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Swee Boon > > --- nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > Oh Jon, I am getting so confused. > > What is the difference between "being subject to 'outside' forces" > and "exerting 'influence'"? > > Jon: > Now I'm confused too ;-)) I don't recall having anything to say on > the expression "exerting influence" in this thread. But looking > back, I notice this comment of yours in a post to Ken O: > < "influence" over the latter. > Or, if A conditions B, A is exerting "influence" over B.>> > so let me pick it up from there. > > In terms of the words 'influence' and 'force' there is no > difference > as far as I'm concerned. The only difference I would see between > the > 2 expressions in your question to me is this: that when we say "is > conditioned" or "is subject to 'outside' forces" we are speaking > from > the point of view of the conditioned dhamma ('B' in your example > above), whereas when we say "is exerting influence over" we are > speaking from the point of view of the conditioning dhamma ('A' in > your example), so it depends which of the 2 is the focus of our > interest. If the focus is 'B', then I think the proper equivalent > expression would be "is subject to influence". > > Not sure if this clarifies anything or takes the discussion further > ;-)) 31763 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear All, --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I sent a few brief comments back to Bhikkhu Bodhi in response to his on > this subject and I'll pass on any further feedback if he gives any. .... S: In reply to my comments posted the other day (see end of post), B.Bodhi sent the following yesterday: ***** BB: >I checkedd my copy of the Comprehensive Manual and so far as I can see, you are right and my assertion is wrong. In the next edition, the sentence on p. 241 (Guide to para. 4), 'Thus they are not included among the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)', would have to be taken out. Were there any other statements in the book making the same point about the anipphannarupas? With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi< ***** S:If Mike, KenO or anyone else has anything further to add, please do so. I think we can all appreciate B.Bodhi's willingness to reconsider and amend any perceived errors. Metta, Sarah ===== > BB: > On the status of the space element: I tried to do > > some research on this, but > > could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may > > be correct. I had always > > assumed that the defining mark of a > > paramattha-dhamma according to the > > Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna > > ("existing through > > intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me > > think this may not be > > correct. > ..... > S: I’d like to make a few comments with respect if I may and perhaps I > can > put them in point form. I’m not sure if any logic will be apparent and > please ignore it if you’d prefer or are busy. Of course comments on any > errors are most welcome. > > 1.CMA, 1#2 Fourfold paramattha-dhammas (inc *all* rupas as I understand) > > 2. Summary & Exposition (Wijeratne & Gethin transl)p7 explanation to > above > defines rupas here as ‘the aggregate of materiality differentiated as > the > elements and dependent [materialities] (upaadaruupa) > > 3. CMA,V1#5 28 Rupas inc. anipphannaruupa inc in upaadaruupa > > 4. CMA V1, 2, guide 2 Upaadaaya ruupa ‘are material phenomena derived > from, or dependent upon, the four great essentials. these are > twenty-four > in number.’ > > 5. Exposition p230 refers to conditioned nature etc of all rupas. > > 6. Vism 1, n14 from Pm 40-41 > “ ‘But these are simply modes of interpreting (sannivesaakaara) the > kinds > of materiality derived from the (four) primaries that are interpreted > (sannivi.t.tha) in such and such wise; for apart from that there is in > the > ultimate sense [paramattho] no such thing as a hand and so on’.” > > I assume ‘that’ refers to the four primaries and derived rupas here. > > 7. Paramattha dhammas refer to the same realities as the khandhas + > nibbana. > Vism X1V,72 under ‘the Aggregates’ > “So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of > the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to > twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less. > > And all that [matter of twenty-eight sorts] is of one kind as ‘not > root-cause, root-causeless, dissociated from root-cause, with > conditions, > mundane, subject to cankers’ (Dhs#5840, and so on.” > > 8. As I understand, space (akaasaa ruupa) has a characteristic which can > be known and is included in the khandhas, the aayatanas and the dhaatus > - > all of which consist of paramattha dhammas only. > ...... > BB: >It would not be enough, though, merely to > > bring forth rational > > arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote > > texts that establish that > > space is paramattha without being sabhAvato > > vijjamAna. > .... > S: Going back to the first two points above, surely here in the prologue > to CMA and its commentary, paramattha is clearly defined in terms of all > cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana without exceptions and as > elaborated > on in the main text? > ..... <....> 31764 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:40am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 17 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The meditator has slept and he just wakes up. He knows that he is awake. He knows that he is in bed. He is planning for the day and he also knows that he is planning and thinking. At each mind activity he looks into that activity and he sees what are there. I wants to get out of bed to start the day. He knows that he wants so. Bending the elbow, holding the blanket, stretching the arm, beding the hip, bending the knee, stretching the leg, putting down the leg on the floor, rising up and stand on feet. Through out all these movement he looks into detail and sees them intact. He knows that he wants to go to the toilet. Stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off another foot, swinging, footing, standing and so on. In the toliet, he knows that he wants to sit on. Turning, bending trunk, hip and knee, touching with the commode, sitting, want to release, release, releive. Want to clean, clean. Through out all these activities he stays in investigation into matters. Stand up, stretching, stepping, swinging, footing, standing, taking off and so on and he knows that he wants to go to the basin and then he washes his hands knowingly the touches of water noting the characters. Washing, brushing, cleaning, wiping and then he goes for a shower and notes through out. Flowing, drying, wiping and cleaning are all noted. Each activity is investigated in detail. He just takes an ordinary dressing and he consciously changes the dressing. Combing, putting things in their place and then he prepares for paying homage to The Buddha image in the shrine. He sits mindfully and he touches at five areas in his worshiping that is feet, knees, elbows, hands and the forehead. Then he does the routine citing and pays homage to triplegem. He knows he is in tranquil and peace. Through all these activities, he looks into them intact and sees all of them. Then he sits. He knows that he is breathing. When it is long he knows it as long particularly the long touch. When it is short, he knows it as short, noting touch. When in, he knows he is breathing in and when out he knows it out. He knows at that time that he is well calm. He knows calmness is good but he is not too stick to it but investigate it. He stays so in detail analysis through out these activities. For some time he has sat and he has been mindful. He wants to rise up. He notes that he wants so. He knows all his bodily movement. From sitting to standing, standing to walking. And he also knows all his actions carrying utensils, plates, cups and saucers. He sits at the breakfast table. He notes that he wants to eat as he was fast the whole night. He notes he stretches his hand and takes the food. he notes that he brings the food to his mouth, opening the mouth, putting the food into the mouth, close the mouth, grind the food, wants to swallows and then swallows the ground food. Stretch out to take the glass, put on the table, pour juice into the glass, want to drink, take to the mouth, put into the mouth, hold and swallow the juice. He knows that he finishes his breakfast, wants to clean mouth and lips with tissue, clean them, put the tissue into the bin. Want to stand, stand, move around and engage the routine. He notes through out the day as far as he can and when he is back home, he changes his dressing mindfully with loose dressing for ease. Have dinner mindfully and finish it and he leaves the dinner table and he sits at his table planning for tomorrow. He knows that he is planning. Through out all these activities he looks into matters as deeply as he can. When the investigation of phenomenon works evidently he realises that wisdom is working. Wisdom feeds other co-arising dhamma. Wisdom realizes the mind and matters. When activity after activity are being well investigated and every event is well analysed and investigated and that wisdom becomes a factor of peer factors that assist arising of higher wisdom. Investigation of phenomenon is not him or his. He knows that wisdom just arises and falls away.The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31765 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:22am Subject: Abandoning and relinquishing Hello all. I would like to check my understanding of the following passage from the Latukikopama Sutta (MN66). If you have a moment, kindly read the following, and my questions below: "Udayin, there are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. Which four? There is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He acquiesces to them. He does not abandon them, destroy them, dispel them, or wipe them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He does not acquiesce to them. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person, realizing that acquisitions are the root of suffering & stress, is without acquisitions, released in the ending of acquisitions. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is unfettered, not fettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "There are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. (end passage) Questions: Does this sutta's "4 types of person" represent a progress from unskillful behaviour to skillful behaviour. It seems to me that it does. I see myself now as vacillating between being the first kind of person, who tolerates acquisition of new unwholesome accumulations and the second kind of person, who takes action to "wipe them out of existence." It's interesting that the second kind of person remains fettered despite taking action against acquisitions. I think the third kind of person depticted here has developed satipatthana to the extent that skillful response arises immediately in response to "lapses in mindfulness" without any need for taking action intentionally. The "iron pan heated all day" would be the mind conditioned by proper reflection on dhamma teachings, and discussion with dhamma friends, and most importantly cultivation of satipatthana - though I haven't understood yet just how one goes about cultivating satipatthana. And then the 4th kind of person " realizing that acquisitions are the root of suffering & stress" has right understanding to the point that there are no more "lapses in mindfulness." I would guess that you experienced practitioners are in the third category, and aiming for the 4th. Do you see that kind of progression laid out in this sutta, or am I oversimplifying it? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta Phil 31766 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:45am Subject: Robber Guests (was Re: new pages Hello all. Browsing about in the posts from way back when, came across this. I appreciate this metaphor of the robber-guest. I would like to think about it more, but will send it along now as a way of marking it for future consideration. I will probably want to think about extending the metaphor, and about to what extent we can an/or should guard the doors. And what is the skillful way to handle the pleasant guest. The passage below makes it sound as if finding pleasure is automatically akusala. ("At that moment the robber is there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala-dhamma") Is that always the case? Does attachment inevitably arise from pleasure? And what role panna would play in this metaphor? An akusala detector at the door? If we know that pleasure leads to attachment, can we nevertheless learn to find pleasure in vistors in a wise way that avoids akusala? Or is only the arahant free from the arising of attachment and aversion? (Sorry if I've asked a similar question before.) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jonothan Abbott" wrote: > >Just uploaded 2 new pages to the section 'A Few Words' at > >, which should really be called 'Varee's > >Choices' but she wouldn't let me. > >Enjoy: 'Infinity' and 'Abandoning', > > Amara, > > I was so taken by the earlier passage 'Visitors' that I thought other > members may appreciate it too. I hope you don't mind me posting an > abbreviated version of your translation for the list. Here it is: > > > We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that appear > through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. > > When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every > sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or > body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it > falls away. > > There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite > relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company > enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. > > Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate > with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. > When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the > sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is > there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- dhamma > (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the > other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or > friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. > > The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the > sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while > wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for > future visits of relatives and friends as well. > > We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness > (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. > [ends] > > May this be a conditon to for useful reflection when robbers disguised as > pleasant objects come visiting! > > Jonothan > 31767 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:41am Subject: Do Vipassanaa As The Buddha In Dhammapada Verse 373 And 374 Teaches Us Dear Sarah, Nina, Jon, Mike Niece and Dhamma friends, How are you? The following is my response to Jeffery Brooks's selective omissions of Dhammapada Verse 373 and Verse 374 that teaches Vipassanaa meditation. Please enjoy it! :-) Suan ___________ __________ ________ __ ___ Dear Jeffery and all How are you? By selectively quoting only the verse 372 to support your personal views, you missed the all-inclusive nature of the teaching system of the Buddha. You need to read all the related verses from 368 to 376 as a whole group to get the right perspective and context of the Dhammapada story "Sambahulabhikkhuvatthu". The following two verses teach how to practice Vipassanaa meditation. 373. "Suññaagaaram pavi.t.thassa, santacittassa bhikkhuno. amaanusii ratii hoti, sammaa dhammam vipassato. 374. "Yato yato sammasati, khandhaanam udayabbayam; labhatii piitipaamojjam, amatam tam vijaanatam. Please pay attention to the term "vipassato" in verse 373 which refutes your repeated claim that the Buddha did not teach Vipassanaa. Please also pay attention to the statement "Yato yato sammasati, khandhaanam udayabbayam" in verse 374. That is how the Buddha taught Vipassanaa meditation. When we are doing Vipassanaa meditation, we need to get out of any Ruupa Jhaanas or Aruupa Jhaanas. Why? As you know very well how Samatha works. Samatha practice requires us to focuss on a sigle object only, and any Ruupa Jhaana or Aruupa Jhaana gained through Samatha practice is also absorbed in a single Jhaana object only. But, in verse 374, the Buddha was asking us to observe and reflect on the emergence and disappearance of FIVE psychosomatic aggregates, namely, matter aggregate, feeling aggregate, memory aggregate, activation aggregate, and consciousness aggregate. And each aggregate comes with many types and instances. For example, feeling aggregate has five kinds of feelings such as pain, comfort, pleasure, displeasure and neutral feeling while activation aggregate comes with 50 mental associates (cetasikas). Consciousness aggregate comes with 89 types of consciousnesses while memory aggregate has countless types of memories. Now, the Buddha was asking us to observe and reflect each instance of any member of those aggregates as they emerge and as they disappear in various circustances. Put it another way, as soon as the Buddha asked us to practice Vipassanaa meditation in verse 373 and 374, he was asking us to work with multiple objects of real phenomena. For us to be able to do that, he was also asking us to get out of any Ruupa Jhaana or Aruupa Jhaana because those Jhaanas can absorb only a single object. In other words, while we are doing Vipassanaa meditation, we are outside any Jhaana absorption. We do Vipassanaa meditation with our ordinary minds that have non-Jhaanic or near-Jhaanic concentration (upacaara samaadhi). That is why I say to you "Do Samatha, Then Move On To Vipassana As The Buddha Taught in Dhammapada Verse 373 and Verse 374." Do you have any problems with the Buddha's teachings on Vipassanaa meditation in those Dhammapada verse 373 and 374? With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In BuddhistWellnessGroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: Hello Suan, I understood you very well. You sounded very smug and dismissive. I have found we sometime naively embrace ideas just because the elders taught them to us. However when we examine the canon we find that even though the commentaries say one thing, the Buddha said another. I am a "simple Buddhist householder" who found jhana from a simply daily practice while discharging my responsibilities as a son, a husband and a parent. Therefore I know jhana is accessible to everyone, even the "simple Buddhist householders," let alone the monks who suffer from so much ignorance delusion and doubt that they think life it too difficult these days, even for a monk, to embrace jhana. Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom(panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks ---------------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:30:24 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Do Samatha, Then Move On To Vipassana Just Like The Buddha <> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: > There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), > No wisdom without absorption. > > Hello Suan, it is a beautiful morning here. I have 31768 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo Dear Htoo, Utu is also translated as season, which is not so clear to me. When I think of temperature, I mean heat or cold. That is why all these terms have to be explained in the context, preferably with Pali. No translation is adequate. The element of heat is better. Nina. op 26-03-2004 14:07 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Thank you very much for your extensive explanation. But temperature > is just a translated term and it does not exactly equate with utu, I > think. Temperature in conventional term ( that is from view of > science ) is just a part of physics while utu covers all rupa things. > I mean even though it is right to say 'temperature' it definition is > more than 'temperature' in physics. 31769 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment ( § 5.6.) Dear Victor, Thank you very much. I have Peter Masefield's transl of Co, I, p. 347. See below. op 26-03-2004 01:31 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > § 5.6. > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at > Anupiya in the Mango Orchard. Now at that time, Ven. Bhaddiya > Kaligodha, on going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an > empty dwelling, would repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" N: The Co states that Prince Bhaddiya went forth and developed vipassana, acquired six abhi~n~nas and observed the thirteen ascetical pracices. A bhi~n~nas are five supranatural powers acquired through jhana and the sixth is the eradication of all defilements. Thus, he had become an arahat. We read: Non-returners and arahats who have developed jhana and vipassana can, after the process during which enlightenment is attained, have many moments of fruitionconsciousness experiencing nibbana. This is phala-samapatti, fruition-attainment. Nina. 31770 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:30am Subject: Re: Abandoning and relinquishing Hello Philip, Bhikkhu Bodhi says in this sutta La.tukikopama Sutta 'The Simile of the Quail' the Buddha drives home the importance of abandoning all fetters, no matter how harmless and trifling they may seem. I have inserted Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanatory notes numbers 673, 674, 675, 676, and 677 into the text you provided. Hope it is of assistance, and that others may give answers to your questions. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- note 673: MA: The Buddha undertakes this teaching in order to analyse the person who abandons what he is told to abandon into four distinct types of individuals. note 674: Upadhi: MA glosses: For the abandoning of four kinds of upadhi - the aggregates, defilements, volitional formations, and cords of sensual pleasure (khandh' upadhi kiles' upadhi abhisankhaar' upadhi kaamagu.n' upadhi). note 675: MA: The ordinary man, the stream-enterer, the once- returner, and the non-returner can all be included under the first category, the non-returner because the craving for being still exists in him and thus at times he can delight in thoughts of worldly enjoyment. The same four can be included in the second category, the ordinary man because he may suppress arisendefilements, arouse energy, develop insight, and eradicate defilements by attaining the supramundane path. note 676: This type is distinguished from the previous type only by his sluggishness in arousing mindfulness to abandon arisen defilements. note 677: This is the arahant, who alone has eradicated all the fetters. "Udayin, there are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. Which four? [note 673] There is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. [note 674] As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He acquiesces to them. He does not abandon them, destroy them, dispel them, or wipe them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, memories & resolves associated with acquisitions assail him. He does not acquiesce to them. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. [note 675] "Then there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. [note 676] Just as when two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow is the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly vanish & disappear. In the same way, there is the case where a certain person is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions. As he is practicing for the abandoning & relinquishing of acquisitions, then -- from time to time, owing to lapses in mindfulness -- he is assailed by memories & resolves associated with acquisitions. Slow is the arising of his mindfulness, but then he quickly abandons [those memories & resolves], destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is fettered, not unfettered. Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "Then there is the case where a certain person, realizing that acquisitions are the root of suffering & stress, is without acquisitions, released in the ending of acquisitions. I tell you, Udayin, that this sort of person is unfettered, not fettered.[note 677] Why is that? Because I have known the diversity of faculties with regard to this type of person. "There are these four types of people to be found existing in the world. (end passage) > > Questions: > > Does this sutta's "4 types of person" represent a progress from > unskillful behaviour to skillful behaviour. It seems to me that it > does. > I see myself now as vacillating between being the first kind of > person, who tolerates acquisition of new unwholesome accumulations > and the second kind of person, who takes action to "wipe them out of > existence." It's interesting that the second kind of person remains > fettered despite taking action against acquisitions. > > I think the third kind of person depticted here has developed > satipatthana to the extent that skillful response arises immediately > in response to "lapses in mindfulness" without any need for taking > action intentionally. The "iron pan heated all day" would be the mind > conditioned by proper reflection on dhamma teachings, and discussion > with dhamma friends, and most importantly cultivation of > satipatthana - though I haven't understood yet just how one goes > about cultivating satipatthana. > And then the 4th kind of person " realizing that acquisitions are > the root of suffering & stress" has right understanding to the point > that there are no more "lapses in mindfulness." I would guess that > you experienced practitioners are in the third category, and aiming > for the 4th. > > Do you see that kind of progression laid out in this sutta, or am > I oversimplifying it? > Thanks in advance for any feedback. > > Metta > Phil 31771 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Question about kamma and vipaka Dear Group, In counselling sessions, one is often faced with questions which usually become more disturbing 'after the event'. During the session, the well-being of the client is the main focus and the condition for the way things flow, but afterwards, mulling over what happened and what could have been done better, questions begin to arise. However, for a buddhist, peer support or clincial supervision from colleagues with Christian-Western worldviews may be (on some issues) blocked by lack of compatible understanding. An example: A physically tall strong and healthy young man, father of two, of appprox. 28-30 years attended the busy Emergency Dept. seeking admission, hearing voices, relationship breakdown. Known history of schizopherenia, violence, jail admissions, drug use. Assessed by Psych. Reg. but denied suicidality. Left alone, briefly, in cubicle; found later, hanging - having used back pack strap and cubicle rail. Energetically re-suscitated. Body continues alive, but no possibility of ever regaining consciousness. Prognosis - could develop and die from pneumonia soon, but could live in vegetative state for 40 years or more. Transferred to ward. Next-of-kin notified. I receive referral and see mother for support in his room, she stays and sleeps next to his bed. After discussion with staff, she comes to the decision to withdraw oxygen, not offer anti-biotics, withdraw tube feeding, and requests a "not for resuscitation" order. But still ... he lives. The mother, a fundamentalist Christian, implores her loving god to take him, and talks to her son, continually giving him permission 'to go'. But still ... he lives. Her suffering is intense. The burden of memories, the 'if-onlys' of his turbulent life, the burden of decisions. I wonder about all of us, our kamma and vipaka. I wonder to myself how she will feel as he begins to lose weight. I wonder to myself - for a buddhist, is 'not saving', killing? What is the kamma of those who advise the withdrawal of life support or protection measures? Or offer approval and support to those who have made the decisions? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31772 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: charact. of rupas, Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, Utu is also translated as season, which is not so clear to me. When I think of temperature, I mean heat or cold. That is why all these terms have to be explained in the context, preferably with Pali. No translation is adequate.The element of heat is better. Nina. >op 26-03-2004 14:07 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Thank you very much for your extensive explanation. But temperature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your answer. I got it. Yes season is a bit inaccurate. The element tejo would be more appropriate. When I read dhamma, I used to read in three portions. The first is in Pali, then Pali with translation, and the third is pure translation for easy reading. In this way the origional taste has not change. But when pure translation are read, sometime I became confused. That is why I use Pali mixed with simple words. Thanks for your time and kind answer. With respect, Htoo Naing P.S: I have answered the questions in your Abhidhamma writing at DSList. If I was wrong let me know. Thanks. 31773 From: Philip Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: Abandoning and relinquishing Thank you Christine. The notes were very helpful. They helped me realize that I had misread the third category, adn thought that it was unfettered. It's interesting how I read sutta hoping to find things that support my self-generated theories, and end up misunderstanding! Yes another reason to be grateful for having found this group. BTW, do these notes come from Bhikkhu Bodhi's collection of AN that is available in book form, or are they available online anywhere? The Finance Minister has banned the purchase of books. :) and :( both apply. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, > > Bhikkhu Bodhi says in this sutta La.tukikopama Sutta 'The Simile of > the Quail' the Buddha drives home the importance of abandoning all > fetters, no matter how harmless and trifling they may seem. > > I have inserted Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanatory notes numbers 673, 674, > 675, 676, and 677 into the text you provided. Hope it is of > assistance, and that others may give answers to your questions. > > 31774 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: Question about kamma and vipaka --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, In counselling sessions,... What is the kamma of those who advise the withdrawal of life support or protection measures? Or offer approval and support to those who have made the decisions? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have to refer to smell thief here. The action is at the time of decision. That will not be the same from a person to another as they will have different level of knowledge and background. I mention smell thief here. Becuase it is just a reminder for already pure bhikkhu. The water in the ocean will not change a lot by adding a teaspoonful of dirty thing. But very pure water in a small glass will be much contaminated by adding just one teaspoonful of impure things. If the decision maker is just an ordinary person, it will not much matter as the brain is dead even though the body is alive. This may sound like avinnanaka being even though we may not be sure because there was some record that arose from coma, I think. So the kamma at the time of decision will depend on how he or she decided in the context. The worse thing is thinking again that is kukkucca which is akusala citta that will lead to rebirth in lower realm. With Metta, Htoo Naing 31775 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:10pm Subject: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.3.) § 6.3. Now at that time a large number of monks, after the meal, on returning from their alms round, had gathered at the meeting hall and were engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not. Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "For what topic of conversation are you gathered together here? In the midst of what topic of conversation have you been interrupted?" "Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not." "It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not. "There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful -- to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects." [AN X.69] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31776 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:15pm Subject: Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - 6. Seclusion(§ 6.3.) Hi all, Talk on seclusion is one of the ten topics of [proper] conversation. I find the passage a good reminder. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > § 6.3. > Now at that time a large number of monks, after the meal, on > returning from their alms round, had gathered at the meeting hall > and were engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: > conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, > alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & > scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the > countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; > tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & > of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not. > Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late > afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a > seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the > monks: "For what topic of conversation are you gathered together > here? In the midst of what topic of conversation have you been > interrupted?" > > "Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, > we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of > bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & > ministers of state... tales of diversity, the creation of the world > & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not." > > "It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone > forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get > engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about > kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist > or not. > > "There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? > Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non- entanglement, > on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on > discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. > These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage > repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine > even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful -- to say nothing of the > wanderers of other sects." > > > [AN X.69] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#seclusion 31777 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Robber Guests (was Re: new pages Phil Although I didn't realise it at the time, the analogy of the robber-guests is from the texts. Knowing that, it might be an idea to check the original also (instead of relying solely on my re-telling of a re-telling ;-)). Not that discussion on your post need wait until then of course. Can anyone give us the reference for the original, please (are you there, Mike?). Jon --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. Browsing about in the posts from way back when, came across this. I appreciate this metaphor of the robber-guest. I would like to think about it more, but will send it along now as a way of marking it for future consideration. We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that appear through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it falls away. There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- dhamma (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for future visits of relatives and friends as well. We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. 31778 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing the Dhamma - 5. Contentment ( § 5.6.) Hi Nina, Thank you for this message on Peter Masefield's tranl of Co. I feel that following two passages illustrate the state of discontent and the state of content: "Before, when I was a householder, maintaining the bliss of kingship, I had guards posted within and without the royal apartments, within and without the city, within and without the countryside. But even though I was thus guarded, thus protected, I dwelled in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. But now, on going alone to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, I dwell without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid -- unconcerned, unruffled, my wants satisfied, with my mind like a wild deer. It occurs to me that: Being discontent, one dwells in fear -- agitated, distrustful, and afraid. Being content, one dwells without fear, unagitated, confident, and unafraid -- unconcerned, unruffled. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Victor, > Thank you very much. I have Peter Masefield's transl of Co, I, p. 347. See > below. [snip] > fruition-attainment. > Nina. 31779 From: Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Sarah, In Vism. XIV 73 B. ~Nanamoli makes a parenthetical clarification in his translation to the effect that unproduced rupas are conceptual. That is to say "matter as delimitation...alteration...and characteristic". In regard to delimitation or space it would seem necessary that there be an aggregate of tangible data in order for there to be something delimited. So the question is, is an apparent aggregate a concept? Using a strict interpretation of concept as a word and its meaning, I would say no. I was going to introduce this idea when we get to the characteristics of the tangible data base in Vism. XIV 76 as regards a touched shape, but it applies here too. I think the easiest way to think about this is to analyze the appearance of movement. Movement, shape, and delimitation are all appearances, whether visual or otherwise, that arise due to the linking of sequential related arisings. Can we say that these appearances are actually interpretations designated as nonconceptual moha and amoha (wrong and right understanding)? If so, I think we could quite accurately call them formations (sankhara). As such, even right understanding is a formation and even wrong understanding is a reality. Supposing someone, the Buddha maybe, could experience a single tangible datum, that datum would still be a formation in its singularity. And an illusion is still a real illusion even though the erroneously understood object doesn't exist. If this is agreeable we could say space is between concept and ultimate reality as an interpretive consciousness formation, aka appearance. Does abhidhamma support this? How does abhidhamma analyze the appearance of formations or aggregates? Larry 31780 From: dharmajim Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:28pm Subject: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Editions Greetings: I have been participating in a Sutta study group that has been ongoing for four years now. We have been spending a year on the Middle Length Discourses, using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. At our last meeting, one person was reading a passage, and others in the group found that their version differed (it was Sutta 106). The differences were intriguing. I was not aware of these kinds of revisions. Does anyone have a reference that would compare usages in the first and subsequent editions? Is there an interview somewhere with Bhikkhu Bodhi regarding this? Thanks, Dharmajim 31781 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:45pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Editions Hello Jim, Philip and all, Jim - I didn't know BB had gone to reprints. Do you know what the latest edition is? No doubt there is a revision and tidying up before a reprint is done - it's be good to know more. Philip - I find it of inestimable value to have hard copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Bhikkhu Nanamoli's translations of the Majjhima Nikaya "Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A New translation of the Majjhima Nikaya", and Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha: A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya". He also has a small Anthology of some of the Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya entitled 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' (330 pages). Check on Amazon.com - at least you (and the Finance Minister) will know how much your savings target is. :-) Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are not on the Internet (an occasional sutta is) - but his are the best translations by a long way, in my opinion, for accuracy, beauty, readability, and footnotes/explanations. But below are some links to others translations of bits 'n pieces of the Canon. Some mirror ATI, but there is also a little variety from other translators. I've given some Intratext links - so for a little on the intratext format, see: http://www.intratext.com/Aiuto/ENG/ Thanissaro Bhikkhu doesn't usually give as many explanations or foot notes as BB - sometimes he writes an introduction to a sutta. Click on Pali Canon: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ Majjhima Nikaya (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0234.HTM Some translations by Maurice Walshe of the Digha Nikaya (not all) are at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/index.html Sister Upalavanna's translations of the Majjhima (accurate but not graceful) are at: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/index.htm And Sister Upalavanna's trans. of the Anguttara Nikaya are at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/index.html Dhammapadapali with translations by Ven Buddharakkhita and Ven Narada are at: http://tinyurl.com/ysf8d Dhammapada by F. Max Muller (intratext links): http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0075.HTM Dhammapada by Ven. Buddharakkhita (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0231.HTM Dhammapada by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/y/ENG0232.HTM Khuddakapatha (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/y/ENG0356.HTM Itivutaka (intratext links) http://www.intratext.com/y/ENG0233.HTM Sutta Nipata http://tinyurl.com/3b829 Vinaya http://www.vipassana.com/canon/vinaya/index.php http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc1/intro.html Hope the links work :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dharmajim" wrote: > Greetings: > > I have been participating in a Sutta study group that has been > ongoing for four years now. We have been spending a year on the > Middle Length Discourses, using Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. At our > last meeting, one person was reading a passage, and others in the > group found that their version differed (it was Sutta 106). The > differences were intriguing. I was not aware of these kinds of > revisions. Does anyone have a reference that would compare usages > in the first and subsequent editions? Is there an interview > somewhere with Bhikkhu Bodhi regarding this? > > Thanks, > > Dharmajim 31782 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Sarah, I appreciate B.B.'s attitude and openmindedness to reconsider. This is very good of him. I am going to write a little on what we are doing here with the study of Vis and Tiika to the Pali yahoo list. The reason was a remark about taking the Co with a grain of salt. I shall frwd it here too. But I need to spend some time on this. Nina. op 27-03-2004 06:48 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > S:If Mike, KenO or anyone else has anything further to add, please do so. > I think we can all appreciate B.Bodhi's willingness to reconsider and > amend any perceived errors. 31783 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5. Contentment (§ 5.6.)correction Dear Victor, A correction and addition. I wrote: Non-returners and arahats who have developed jhana and vipassana can, after the process during which enlightenment is attained, have many moments of fruitionconsciousness experiencing nibbana. This is phala-samapatti, fruition-attainment. I have to correct: all those who have attained enlightenment can, after the process during which enlightenment is attained, have many moments of fruitionconsciousness experiencing nibbana during their life. This is phala-samapatti, fruition-attainment. As to cessation , nirodha samapatti, this is the suspension of all mental activity. Non-returners and arahats who have developed all stages of rupajhana and arupajhana can, after they have attained the state of neither perception-nor-nonperception, attain cessation. But they must have made the necessary preprations (Vis. XXIII). Nina. 31784 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:32pm Subject: Wisdom is knowing when to withdraw from the field Today insight, born of absorption, provided me with the wisdom of knowing when to withdraw from the field of dialog. Hello Suan, and thank-you for continuing this inquiry into insight (vipassana) and absorption (jhana). Your point that one should of course take any quote into the greater context of the teaching is very well spoken. However, I believe leaving the discourses of the Buddha for the Dhammapada, seems unproductive and a rather desperate reach. While I respect the degree of reverence that many people have for this document, I do not however believe the Dhammapada represents the definitive source of the Buddha's teaching as do the Nikayas. I believe it seems reasonable to accept the Nikayas as that definitive source, not the Dhammapada. I would however accept the Dhammapada, Vinaya or Abhidhamma as secondary supporting materials for the primary material in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). The Dhammapada is actually an excellent example of how the meaning of a particular document can be shifted rather radically by the translator. Since it has been translated by many more people than any single volume of the Nikayas, then if one were to examine 5 different translations of the particular section of the Dhammapada that you have chosen, I am confident that one would find a rather broad range in meaning. This of course implies the same thing can be true for the larger document of the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka) as well. The final word however rests in the subjective world of our own meditation practice, where we can only prove to ourselves whether any of the concepts, belief or translated quotes of the Buddha are valid. I have proven to myself in my daily meditation practice that insight (vipassana) emerges from absorption. I can only hope that you have proven your premise that one must leave absorption (jhana) to gain insight (vipassana). In conclusion I believe that we are left with two situations here. First you believe what you believe and you have shown no interest in changing your beliefs. I have provided you with what I have found to be true from my daily practice regimen, and I have provided you with ample support for those findings in the form of quotes from the discourses of the Buddha. I believe at this point that we should thank each other for providing an interesting and stimulating conversation. And, leave the field of dialog before we utterly shame ourselves through sheer stubbornness. Kindest of regards, Jeff Brooks -------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:41:06 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Do Vipassanaa As The Buddha In Dhammapada Verse 373 And 374 Teaches Us Dear Sarah, Nina, Jon, Mike Niece and Dhamma friends, How are you? The following is my response to Jeffery Brooks's selective omissions of Dhammapada Verse 373 and Verse 374 that teaches Vipassanaa meditation. Please enjoy it! :-) Suan <....> 31785 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: Wisdom is knowing when to withdraw from the field Hello Jeffrey, I don't understand why you are panning the Dhammapada now - you were the one who used the quote initially (only two days ago) as support for your ideas. See at the top and foot of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31737 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: > Today insight, born of absorption, provided me with > the wisdom of knowing when to withdraw from the field > of dialog. > > Hello Suan, and thank-you for continuing this inquiry > into insight (vipassana) and absorption (jhana). Your > point that one should of course take any quote into > the greater context of the teaching is very well > spoken. However, I believe leaving the discourses of > the Buddha for the Dhammapada, seems unproductive and > a rather desperate reach. > > While I respect the degree of reverence that many > people have for this document, I do not however > believe the Dhammapada represents the definitive > source of the Buddha's teaching as do the Nikayas. I > believe it seems reasonable to accept the Nikayas as > that definitive source, not the Dhammapada. I would > however accept the Dhammapada, Vinaya or Abhidhamma as > secondary supporting materials for the primary > material in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta > Pitaka). > > The Dhammapada is actually an excellent example of how > the meaning of a particular document can be shifted > rather radically by the translator. Since it has been > translated by many more people than any single volume > of the Nikayas, then if one were to examine 5 > different translations of the particular section of > the Dhammapada that you have chosen, I am confident > that one would find a rather broad range in meaning. > This of course implies the same thing can be true for > the larger document of the discourses of the Buddha > (Sutta Pitaka) as well. > 31786 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi all, > > I think that being unhappy is often a result of being discontent, > not being content with the material possession one has. .... In a wider sense still, I think we can say that being discontent, unhappy and having many wishes is on account of clinging to all that appears through the senses. I just remembered that the same phrases of fewness of wishes (appicchaata) and contentment (santu.t.thi) are used in this quote I gave before: ***** Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS) 846: “ ‘Herein, what is sense-desire clinging? That which in sense-desires is lust for sense-desires, greed for sense-desires, delight in sense-desires, craving for sense-desires, love of sense-desires, fever of sense-desires, infatuation with sense-desires, cleaving to sense-desires - this is called sense-desire clinging’ (Dhs 1214). Firmness of craving is a name for subsequent craving that has become firm owing to previous craving, which acts as its decisive support condition. But some have said: ‘Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping the goods. These states are opposed to *fewness of wishes (appicchaata)* and *contentment (santu.t.thi)*. Hence they are the root of the suffering due to seeking and guarding [of property]’ (see Dii58f). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [wrong] view.” ***** Note the reference here to Dii58f here is back to the Mahanidana sutta, so it links with our other ‘D.O. corner' too: “Thus, Ananda, in dependence upon feeling there is craving; in dependence upon craving there is pursuit; in dependence upon pursuit there is gain; in dependence upon gain there is decision-making; in dependence upon decision-making there is desire and lust; in dependence upon desire and lust there is attachment; in dependence upon attachment there is possessiveness; in dependence upon possessiveness there is stinginess; in dependence upon stinginess there is safe-guardig; and because of safguarding, various evil unwholesome phenomena originate - the taking up of clubs and weapons, conflicts, quarrels, and disputes, insulting speech, slander and falsehoods.” ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 31787 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Victor & All, The same Gotami sutta is also quoted and elaborated on in the Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller) under Classification of the Jhanas, 1595f. Let me give a small part of it: “ ‘And those things, Gotamii, of which you may know: “These things lead to lust, not to the fading away of lust; they lead to fettering, not to unfettering; they lead to amassing, not to dispersal; they led to clinging, not to relinquishment [footnote: omitted in Vinii and Aiv*]; they lead to greatness of wishes, not to fewness of wishes; they lead to discontent, not to contentment; they lead to company, not to seclusion; they lead to idleness, no to energy; they lead to one’s being difficult to support, not to one’s being easy to support,” you may remember, Gotamii, without reserve, that this is not the Law, this is not the Discipline, this is not the Master’s Dispensation. And those things, Gotamii, of which you may know: “These things lead to the fading of lust, not to lust........”.....this is the Law, this is the Discipline, this is the Master’s Dispensation (A iv 280-1; Vin ii 258-9; cf Aiv 143), in this Buddha Word, in this Buddha Life of Purity, in this Buddha Master’s Dispensation. “Furthermore, this whole Dispensation called the three trainings, owing to being viewed by the Blessed One, owing to having Right View as its condition, owing to having Right View as its precursor, is “view”; through the Blessed One’s tolerating, it is “tolerance”; through his choosing, it is “choice” (ruci); through his taking, it is “creed”. It keeps (dhaareti) the doer of it from falling into the states of woe, thus it is Law (dhamma); it also puts away (vineti) what partakes of the defiled, thus it is Discipline (vinaya); it is Law and that is Discipline, thus it is Law and Discipline.” If you find it interesting, I can add more. Metta, Sarah * possibly the reason for confusion in my earlier message. ========= 31788 From: sarahdhhk Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: An Instance of the Role of Volition Hi Howard, You raised an interesting quote which I had meant to look at earlier: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > At http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn12.html, one can read: > _________________________ > (Insight Knowledge) > "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from > defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs > and inclines it to knowledge & vision. ... > ------------------------------------------- .... S:I checked the Pali phrase for the last few words: `~naa.nadassanaya (knowledge & vision) citta'n abhiniiharati (directs, aspires) abhininnameti' .... > This can likewise be found in the Kevatta sutta at the link > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn11.html, and also at the link > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html > > ============================ > We see here how, from the base of the 4th jhana, it is possible for > one to direct and incline the concentrated mind. To direct and incline the mind > is to take volitional action. It is particularly easy to effectively do this > when the hindrances have been suppressed and the mind is fully equanimous. .... S:I think we'd have to say depending on the accumulated wisdom (vipassana) and other eightfold path factors. No self to direct and as we know, volitional action by itself won't bring the desired results. Without the development of satipatthana, jhanas will not be a condition for insight. Earlier, for example in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta which also has these lines and which I'm looking at, we read the sections on `Restraint of the Sense Faculties', `Mindfulness and clear Comoprehension' etc. Without the highly developed awareness and wisdom involved, there would be no enlightenment with or without jhana attainment as I see it. Maybe you or others have further comments. Metta, Sarah ===== 31789 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Sarah I have immerse respect for B Bodhi but I like to make a presentation was Abdhidhamma after the Nikayas. To me, let see whether there are pieces of Abdhidhamma in the Nikayas Also SN ii.95 “Just as a monkey faring through the dense forest catches one bough, and, letting it go, catches another, and then another, even so bhikkhus, with what is called thought, or mind , or consciousness, by day as by night, one arises when another perishes.” It quotes AN i.10 : “I consider, bhikkhus, that there is no phenomenon that comes and goes so quickly as mind. It is not easy to find a simile to show how quickly mind comes and goes.” - The mind is continuous, sequential and very fast are seldom taught in other suttas and it is highly emphasis in the Abdhidhamma Then again in this sutta <<"If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness.">> - this sutta indicates the existence of the five door adverting citta is seldom taught in other sutta but it is also part of Abdhidhamma A translation of the Diigha Nikaaya by Maurice Walshe. The full DN 9.53 is "So too, whenever the gross acquired self is present, we do not speak of the mind-made or formless acquired self; whenever the mind-made acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross or formless acquired self; whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do not speak of the gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, we speak of the formless acquired self. But, Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech designations in common use in the world, which the Tathaagata uses without misapprehending them.' [n. 224] Devatasamyutta, 25 (5) The Arahant “If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, Would he still say, ‘I speak’? And would he say, ‘They speak to me’?” “If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, He might still say, ‘I speak.’ And hemight say, ‘They speak to me.’ Skilful, knowing the world’s parlance, He uses such terms as mere expressions.” -- then we have conventional and ultimate reality. Ultimate reality is usually the gist of Abdhidhamma while conventional is usually the gist of Sutta -- To me these are bit and pieces of Abhidhamma in the suttas, on the other side of the fence, one can say these can be part and pieces of Abhidhamma that was conceptualised during Buddha time. --- Then again we look again at one more sutta quote MN 32, Mahaagosinga Sutta para 8 <<"Here friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talks on the Higher Dhamma* and they questions each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Saala-tree Wood." Then later in the same sutta we see Buddha approve of B. Moggallana. >> * - the Higher Dhamma (translated from the pali word- abhidhammakatham)- B Bodhi personal notes. <> The there arise these questions, why did the Buddha approved it if it is not of the dhamma, so in that sense it rise doubt whether it is philosophical. Even if Buddha did not teach it as some has said, his mere approval has bear a lot of weight that Abhidhamma originate during the time of Nikayas and not after it. Furthermore , it is the other chief disciple and not Ven Sariputta who said the word on higher dhamma because usually Ven Sariputta is known to be the main proponent of Abhidhamma. Just my personal thoughts. Ken O 31790 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:27am Subject: Why panati cannot be ayatana Hi All Just like to share with you which I have written on another list to my good dhamma friends there. Lets take a look at why panati cannot be ayatana According to The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga), 167. Therein what is ideational base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of preception, agregate of mental concomitants and that invisible non-impingment material quality included in the ideational base; the unconditional element (i.e. Nibbana). Panati can be object and are paccaya and I could only remember three types. Even though they are not defilements themselves, they can cause or paccaya defilements (roots etc) to arise. 1. arammana-paccaya 2. arammanadhipati-paccaya 3. arammanupanissaya-paccaya So then we look at Vibhanga again para 171 Eleven bases are roots. Ideational sometimes is a root; sometimes is not root. Ten bases are not accompanied by roots. Two bases sometimes accompanied by roots; sometimes not accompanied by roots . . . Eleven bases are not defilements. Ideational base sometimes is defilement, sometimes is not a defilement. . . . Eleven bases are not fetters. Ideational base sometimes is fetter; sometimes is not fetter. From here we can see that ideational are themselves roots, fetter and defilements whereas panati are not roots or fetter or defilements - they are causes of them. This Abdhidhamma book show that only paramatthas are dhamma ayatana and panati can only be dhamma arammana and not dhamma ayatana. There are a lot more details, I just fish out the most obvious ones. Ken O 31791 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi's Editions Hello Christine and Jim, and all > I find it of inestimable value to have hard copies of > Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Bhikkhu Nanamoli's translations of the Majjhima > Nikaya "Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A New translation of > the Majjhima Nikaya", and Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Connected Discourses > of the Buddha: A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya". He also > has a small Anthology of some of the Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya > entitled 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' (330 pages). Thank you for the nudge, and all the links, Christine. I hope it wasn't too much bother for you. I really appreciate your constancy, if that's the right word. I guess I mean that diligent helpfulness, of which there is so much in this group. BTW, Jim (Dharmajim) is very modest. I am itching to provide a link to the excellent sutra study group he hosts (which is currently devoted to a study of the MN) and to his extensive and insightful writing on the Buddha's teaching, but I will refrain. Please do provide a link if you'd like, Jim. I think the members of this group would appreciate your great scholarship and open- mindedness. Metta, Phil 31792 From: Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Instance of the Role of Volition Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/28/04 6:19:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You raised an interesting quote which I had meant to look at > earlier: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... > wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > >At http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn12.html, > one can read: > >_________________________ > >(Insight Knowledge) > >"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, &bright, > unblemished, free from > >defects, pliant, malleable, steady, &attained to imperturbability, > he directs > >and inclines it to knowledge &vision. ... > >------------------------------------------- > .... > S:I checked the Pali phrase for the last few words: > `~naa.nadassanaya (knowledge &vision) citta'n abhiniiharati > (directs, aspires) abhininnameti' > .... > > This can likewise be found in the Kevatta sutta at the link > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn11.html, > and also at the link > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html > > > >============================ > > We see here how, from the base of the 4th jhana, it is > possible for > >one to direct and incline the concentrated mind. To direct and > incline the mind > >is to take volitional action. It is particularly easy to effectively do > this > >when the hindrances have been suppressed and the mind is > fully equanimous. > .... > S:I think we'd have to say depending on the accumulated > wisdom (vipassana) and other eightfold path factors. No self to > direct and as we know, volitional action by itself won't bring the > desired results. Without the development of satipatthana, jhanas > will not be a condition for insight. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: For the arising of any dhamma the coming together of multiple conditions is a requirement. I don't dispute that. In particular, to incline the mind towards realization requires that one has either heard about the possibility of doing so, or that one has already had a glimpse of such insight. Volition/inclination is also required, together with the prior knowledge. Also required is that the hindrances all be held in check, a condition satisified in the 4th jhana. Multiple conditions are required for any event to occur. However, if knowing that multiple conditions are required to achieve something worthwhile, that should be a spur to begin working on the achieving of some of them, and never serve as a justification for giving up. Fortunately, all of us here are in the position of having heard much, of being devoted to the three jewels, and, in most cases, of having begun practice in one form or another. With regard to forms of practice, I'd like to take the liberty of copying here the content of a post of mine on another list entitled "To Merely Be Good." It doesn't deal *only* with practice, but that is a large part of it. I will add that at the end of this post. ------------------------------------------- > > Earlier, for example in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta which also > has these lines and which I'm looking at, we read the sections > on `Restraint of the Sense Faculties', `Mindfulness and clear > Comoprehension' etc. Without the highly developed awareness > and wisdom involved, there would be no enlightenment with or > without jhana attainment as I see it. > > Maybe you or others have further comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =============================== To Merely Be Good It seems to me that there is a wide variety of quite different "wrong views". But there is "wrong view," and there is "wrong view". Some "wrong view" is still of great value, and it is rarely crystal clear when a position is "right" or "wrong". From our perspective, a belief in a deity, for example, is wrong view, but if following such a belief leads one to moral action, lovingkindness, and possibly absorptive states, such person has done extremely well, I would say. The Buddha dealt kindly and supportively with followers of many traditions, and he encouraged followers of other traditions who wanted to switch allegiance to the Buddha to continue to support the previous teacher. Some of us interpret the Dhamma in a way that treats the jhanas as quite expendible. Others may well object that this is wrong view, and quote chapter and verse to back up that claim of the essential role of the jhanas. Some of these objectors may believe that the jhanas alone can lead to liberating wisdom, a position that others will, with much justification, see as wrong view. But mastery of jhanas *does* cultivate the mind, suppress defilements, lead to divine abidings, and transform the mind into a tool that is sharpened, and easily used in the journey towards enlightenment, and that is no small achievement! On the other hand, those who never even attempt to cultivate jhanas, still do well if they can achieve access concentration and investigate what arises from that position of strength, and they may do far better than those who give lip service to jhanas and their indispensability but do not cultivate them or much of anything else. Others may only engage in ongoing mindfulness under ordinary circumstances, but are very diligent at that, and this takes them very far. Still others may "merely" study and contemplate the Buddha's teachings, carefully observing sila, exemplifying metta in their daily lives, and they will do quite well if their studying is detailed, and their contemplation deep, devoted, and consistent. In the Hindu traditions, they would be called practitioners of gnani yoga. All this is good. There is no need to be doctrinnaire, however one interprets the doctrine. The Buddha advised against saying "This is true, and all else is false." Whatever views and practice conduce to peace, to love, and to kindness partake of "rightness". None of us is perfect. It is quite an achievement to merely be "good". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31793 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Larry, op 27-03-2004 00:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: There is no supramundane plane of existence. N: Right. Lokuttara maggacitta leads to the end of existence. L: Can supramundane consciousnesses with nibbana as object arise in any of > the 31 planes of existence? N: No, not in the woeful planes. And the maggacitta of the sotapanna (and phalacitta) could not arise in the arupa brahmaplanes, since there is no rupa there. When the stages of insight are developed, both nama and rupa are the objects of panna. Furthermore, we have to make more distinctions. The Non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, a rupa-plane (suddhaavaasa) where they attain arahatship. L: Are the 31 planes divided into sensuous, > fine-material, and immaterial? N: But we have to make more distinctions. Four woeful planes are sensuous planes, the human plane and the lower deva planes are also sensuous planes. Then there are the rupa-brahma planes and the arupa brahma planes. In the asa~n~nasatta plane there is no nama, only rupa. In the arupa brahma planes there is no rupa, only nama. Nina. P.S. I wait with your other questions, because I have to finish the Tiika translation. 31794 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:49am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: confidence in the Commentaries. Dear all, this is frwd from the Pali study yahoo. Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: confidence in the Commentaries. Dear John, Today I would like to say something about the benefit of the Commentaries. The oldest ones which are lost now were rehearsed at the great Councils. Buddhaghosa was most conscientious to edit them and translate them again into Pali. But apart from historical arguments, I would rather speak about the immense benefit of studying them. But, I speak from my limited experience with the texts. Some time ago you gave us a beautiful Sutta, John, about five things to be contemplated daily: old age, sickness, death, all that is dear is subject to change, separation, we have to receive the result of our own kamma. You said that you daily meditate on this sutta. I checked the Co I have in Thai. This does not teach anything other than the sutta, but gives additional explanations. It stresses that vipassana is taught here, and the lokuttara magga of the arahat. After reading Co and then going back to the sutta I find that we come more to the deep meaning that is contained therein. When insight is developed the impermanence of nama and rupa is directly known (but this is a long, long way) and then the truth of dukkha is penetrated: what falls away is not worth clinging to. We shall be more convinced of dukkha at this very moment. Buddhaghosa stresses page after page that the truth about the khandhas, the dhaatus, the aayatanas is taught. Repeating that vipassana is to be developed, he reminds us to be aware of them now, since they pertain to daily life. He stresses that the Buddha taught being in the cycle, va.t.ta, and being released from the cycle, viva.t.ta. We are in the cycle now, subject to dukkha. In each Sutta Abhidhamma and vipassana are implied, and people at the Buddha's time had no misunderstandings about this. But since we are further away from the Buddha's time we need the Commentaries which give us more explanations and reminders about our daily life. We are lost without the commentaries. We read in the ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition) that Ånanda asked the Buddha how the monk was skilled in the elements. The Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: ³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness..." This is Abhidhamma in the sutta, and it pertains to our daily life now: visible object and eyesense are conditions for seeing. We may forget this, but realizing this will lead to understanding anatta. We read in the Commentary that for those who consider this Dhamma Discourse, all these elements appear to him, just as when someone uses a mirror, the reflection of his face clearly appears. Therefore, the Buddha said to Ånanda that this Discourse could also be remembered as the ³Mirror of Dhamma². Again, Abhidhamma and vipassana in the Sutta, and a strong reminder that the Sutta pertains to our life now, that we should not delay developing insight. In Dhamma Study Group we are studying the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa's great Encyclopaedia, and its Tiika. I read Vis. in Pali and the Tiika I partly translate (no English or Thai text exists). The more I study the greater my confidence in the Co. I am glad to still have the opportunity to study these texts, grateful that they were preserved. I find that they should be studied with due respect. People today speak of controversies, but I am absolutely sure these can be solved one by one when concrete examples are given. There may be allusions to matters we do not understand today, but then we should return to the time of those ancient teachers, place ourselves in their way of explaining. If we do not understand, I feel that the fault is with us. In dsg list we study now ruupakkhandha (Vis Ch XIV), the four factors that originate rupa: kamma, citta, aahara and tejo dhaatu. All the different conditions for rupa are explained, they all cooperate to make this shortlived body function. We try to make the link to daily life all the time, otherwise study is useless. Bodily intimation and speech are rupas that play their part when we communicate. We take them for granted, but they occur because of their own conditions. We shall continue with the Vissuddhimagga, all the stages of insight up to lokuttara citta. It will take us years, but very beneficial. To conclude, I just give an example of part of the Tiika (there are due to be mistakes, I have no help) : Vi. XIV, 69.. 'Impermanence of matter' has the characteristic of complete breaking up. Its function is to make material instances subside. It is manifested as destruction and fall (cf. Dhs. 645). Its proximate cause is matter that is completely breaking up. Pali: 69. paribhedalakkha.naa ruupassa aniccataa, sa.msiidanarasaa, khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa, paribhijjamaanaruupapada.t.thaanaa. Tiika: Parito sabbaso ²bhijjanan²ti lakkhitabbaati paribhedalakkha.naa. The characteristic of complete breaking up should be defined as being destroyed absolutely and in every respect *. Nicca.m naama dhuva.m, ruupa.m pana kha.nabha"ngitaaya yena bha"ngena na niccanti anicca.m, so aniccassa bhaavoti aniccataa. What is lasting is called permanent, but materiality at the moment of its falling away is not lasting because of its dissolution, and thus it is impermanent, and that state of instability is impermanence. Saa pana yasmaa .thitippatta.m ruupa.m vinaasabhaavena sa.msiidantii viya hotiiti vutta.m ³sa.msiidanarasaa²ti. He said that its function is to make (material instances) subside, since this (impermanence) causes the materiality that has reached (the moments of) presence ** as it were to subside. Yasmaa ca saa ruupadhammaana.m bha"ngabhaavato khayavayaakaareneva gayhati, tasmaa vutta.m ³khayavayapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti. And since this (impermanence) because of the state of dissolution of material phenomena should be taken by way of destruction and fall, he said that it is manifested as destruction and fall. ______ * The word meaning is partly lost in the translation. The prefix pari of paribheda, breaking up, reinforces the word. The words parito, completely and sabbaso, in every respect, are added. ** Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas decay, jaratå rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, the moment of its falling away. These moments are extremely short. Thus, as soon as rupa is present it is already time for its falling away. Remark: The short definitions in the Vis. can be easily overlooked, and therefore I am glad to see the Tiika text which emphasizes more the facts of decay and impermanence occurring each moment. All rupas of the body are decaying now and they are on the way to complete destruction. This is dukkha and a grim reminder of being in the cycle of birth and death. ***** Nina. op 26-03-2004 17:24 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@y...: > Also, when I say that I do not consider the Mahaava.msa to be > Buddhist scripture, I'm using scripture in the sense of "canonical > scripture". By this definition, all the commentaries are not > scripture either, and in the same way must be taken with a grain of > salt. 31795 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 0:01pm Subject: SMOKE AND TIDES SMOKE AND TIDES Rising up that mountain, nothing back but far vain, Moving mixing shaking stuff, nothing packed but null wane. Tiding up that downdrain, nothing back but far vain, Moving mixing shaking stuff, nothing smash but null drain. Liking up that sound brain, nothing back but far vain, Moving mixing shaking stuff, nothing kept but null brain. HTOO NAING --------------------------------- 31796 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 0:36pm Subject: One Tool Among Many One Tool Among Many The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu For free distribution only. You may print copies of this work for your personal use. You may re-format and redistribute this work for use on computers and computer networks, provided that you charge no fees for its distribution or use. Otherwise, all rights reserved. What exactly is vipassana? Almost any book on early Buddhist meditation will tell you that the Buddha taught two types of meditation: samatha and vipassana. Samatha, which means tranquillity, is said to be a method fostering strong states of mental absorption, called jhana. Vipassana -- literally "clear-seeing," but more often translated as insight meditation -- is said to be a method using a modicum of tranquillity to foster moment-to-moment mindfulness of the inconstancy of events as they are directly experienced in the present. This mindfulness creates a sense of dispassion toward all events, thus leading the mind to release from suffering. These two methods are quite separate, we're told, and of the two, vipassana is the distinctive Buddhist contribution to meditative science. Other systems of practice pre-dating the Buddha also taught samatha, but the Buddha was the first to discover and teach vipassana. Although some Buddhist meditators may practice samatha meditation before turning to vipassana, samatha practice is not really necessary for the pursuit of Awakening. As a meditative tool, the vipassana method is sufficient for attaining the goal. Or so we're told. But if you look directly at the Pali discourses -- the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings -- you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquillity, and vipassana to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassana -- a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhana. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassana," but always "go do jhana." And they never equate the word vipassana with any mindfulness techniques. In the few instances where they do mention vipassana, they almost always pair it with samatha -- not as two alternative methods, but as two qualities of mind that a person may "gain" or "be endowed with," and that should be developed together. One simile, for instance (SN XXXV.204), compares samatha and vipassana to a swift pair of messengers who enter the citadel of the body via the noble eightfold path and present their accurate report -- Unbinding, or nibbana -- to the consciousness acting as the citadel's commander. Another passage (AN X.71) recommends that anyone who wishes to put an end to mental defilement should -- in addition to perfecting the principles of moral behavior and cultivating seclusion -- be committed to samatha and endowed with vipassana. This last statement is unremarkable in itself, but the same discourse also gives the same advice to anyone who wants to master the jhanas: be committed to samatha and endowed with vipassana. This suggests that, in the eyes of those who assembled the Pali discourses, samatha, jhana, and vipassana were all part of a single path. Samatha and vipassana were used together to master jhana and then -- based on jhana -- were developed even further to give rise to the end of mental defilement and to bring release from suffering. This is a reading that finds support in other discourses as well. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html 31797 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:04am Subject: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello and thank-you for the excellent recommendation I will read the article. I understand Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu is about my age and he has been studying the dhamma and meditating about as long as I have. I often enjoy reading his writing and translations because I often find he is sensitive to absorption (jhana), and he seems to seek to place insight and absorption into a common perspective. Many thanks, Jeff Brooks ------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:19:37 -0000 From: "yu_zhonghao" Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. Hi Jeff, I would also recommend the following article by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu: One Tool Among Many The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Brooks wrote: [snip] > > Dhammapada Verse 372 > > Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, > Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom > (panna), > No wisdom without absorption. > One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) > has both wisdom and absorption." > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31798 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:21pm Subject: Re: Robber Guests Hi Jon, Phil, Mike, All ~ It might be from Ven. Maha Kaccana's Mahaniddesa.... see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html section IV. Atthaka Vagga: <1. Although these poems were originally composed for an audience of wandering, homeless monks, they offer valuable lessons for lay people as well. Even the passages referring directly to the homeless life can be read as symbolic of a state of mind. Ven. Maha Kaccana's commentary, mentioned above, shows that this has been done ever since canonical times. Addressing a lay person, and commenting on a verse describing the behavior of a sage who has abandoned home and society, he interprets "home" as the khandhas and "society" as sense impressions. Thus in his hands the verse develops an internal meaning that lay people can apply to their lives without necessarily leaving their external home and society. Other verses in the poems can be interpreted in similar ways. > peace, connie Phil Although I didn't realise it at the time, the analogy of the robber-guests is from the texts. Knowing that, it might be an idea to check the original also (instead of relying solely on my re-telling of a re-telling ;-)). Not that discussion on your post need wait until then of course. Can anyone give us the reference for the original, please (are you there, Mike?). Jon --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. Browsing about in the posts from way back when, came across this. I appreciate this metaphor of the robber-guest. I would like to think about it more, but will send it along now as a way of marking it for future consideration. We generally think of visitors as being people. But the objects that appear through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too. When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest. Every sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it falls away. There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests. If the guests are favourite relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company enjoyable. However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them. Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate with no malice for anyone. But they can still be a robber or a friend. When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact. At that moment the robber is there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala- dhamma (unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend. On the other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances. The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for future visits of relatives and friends as well. We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness (citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend. 31799 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Jeff >I understand Ven. Thanissaro >Bhikkhu is about my age and he has been studying the >dhamma and meditating about as long as I have. For a man of such experience, you certainly are interested in chronology! I've only seen your posts for 2 months or so, but I've already heard many times that you have practiced for 30 years. By your quantitative approach, that makes you 15-20 times more insightful than me, so I should feel very grateful to be in your presence. It seems unusual for a Buddhist to think in terms of years rather than lifetimes, doesn't it? Even a beginner like myself can see that attachment to achievment in one lifetime must surely lengthen one's journey through the cycle of birth and death in the long run. (If you are seeking liberation in this lifetime, you had better get off the internet!) I think it would be lacking in friendliness on my part not to point that out that your "look at my resume" approach to practice indicates an unskillful attachment to the fame and disrepute pair of the 8 worldly concerns. Metta, Phil P.S Sarah, I know I promised not to scold people, but I honestly belive pointing this out could be helpful for Jeff. I'm not doing it to exercise my sarcasm or express ill-will. 31800 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:36pm Subject: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello all, As I've said before I'm very interested in the brahma-viharas. The one that I've consistently had the most trouble understanding and practicing correctly (I think) is mudita - sympathetic joy. Here's a passage on mudita from Nina's book "Cetasikas" : N: "Sympathetic joy can be developed in daily life. There are opportunities for its development when we see someone else's good fortune. if we see the disadvantages of jealousy there are conditions for being appreciative when we see that someone is in good health, has success in life and receives honour and praise." P: My confusion lies in the fact that since "honour and praise" and "success in life" often come through ways that don't reflect right understanding, how can we avoid exercising judgement? I wonder if panna can play a role in whether mudita or karuna arises. N: "If we tend to be jealous it is difficult to cultivate sympathetic joy, since jealousy has been accumulated there are conditions for its arising when we see that someone else receives praise or other pleasant objects. it is useful to realize such moments of jealousy, even when they are not coarse but more subtle. If right understanding is being developed we will see that someone else's success does not belong to a "person", that it is only vipaka which is conditioned by kamma, Thus, jealousy is in fact groundless. When right understanding sees that there are no people, no things which exist, only nama and rupa which arise and fall away, there will gradually be less conditions for jealousy." P: Perhaps I've found my answer here. Perhaps it is best to be as uncritical as possible of others' success, in the right understanding that if it does indeed come from wrong understanding, there is no need for "me" to be concerned about whether to feel sympathetic joy or compassion - vipaka will work out in the way it is being conditioned by khamma. N: "Envy is one of the "lower fetters" (samyojanas) which are eradicated by the sotapanna. When there is no more jealousy there are more conditions for sympathetic joy, it can gradually become one's nature. The sotapanna is the true friend who sympathizes and is "sound at heart on four grounds" " P: But can't the true friend aspire to provide correction of wrong view when she or he understands it to be arising in the other? How can we provide "straightening of view" (I forget the Pali term) without exercising some kind of judgement of others' joy? And how can we know whether that need to straighten another's view come from envy or from right understanding? As for straightening other's views I think it is undeniably an important part of a fruitful practice of the Buddha's teaching. I think of the way Sarah changed my practice, and my life, with a short post pointing out some shortcomings in the way I was practicing equanimity to protect myself from outbursts of anger. If she had been content to let me go my own merry way, I wouldn't have turned the corner I did - and I know there will be many, many more occasions where a good dhamma friend points out wrong understanding on my part even when I am expressing joy about some aspect of my practice and claiming benefits from it. Have any of you had trouble understanding how mudita can arise without judgement? Metta, Phil 31801 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why panati cannot be ayatana Dear Ken O, Thank you very much. Just a remark about pa~n~natti: it can only be 1, not 2 or 3. See Guide to Conditional Relations, U Narada. In the Patthana mainly paramattha dhammas are dealt with, and pa~n~natti is just mentioned as arammana-paccaya. Nina. op 28-03-2004 14:27 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Panati can be object and are paccaya and I could only remember three > types. Even though they are not defilements themselves, they can > cause or paccaya defilements (roots etc) to arise. > 1. arammana-paccaya > 2. arammanadhipati-paccaya > 3. arammanupanissaya-paccaya 31802 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why panati cannot be ayatana Hi Nina Thanks for this remark, because I really do not know about this. Another book to buy - Conditional relations Ken O --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken O, > Thank you very much. Just a remark about pa~n~natti: > it can only be 1, not 2 or 3. See Guide to Conditional Relations, U > Narada. > In the Patthana mainly paramattha dhammas are dealt with, and > pa~n~natti is > just mentioned as arammana-paccaya. > Nina. > op 28-03-2004 14:27 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > > Panati can be object and are paccaya and I could only remember > three > > types. Even though they are not defilements themselves, they can > > cause or paccaya defilements (roots etc) to arise. > > 1. arammana-paccaya > > 2. arammanadhipati-paccaya > > 3. arammanupanissaya-paccaya 31803 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Nina or Sarah If you have time could you tell me more about Pure Abode and why it is a rupa plane even though it is always consider the same level as in immaterial planes. Ken O 31804 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, S: I appreciate your comments very much - they condition a lot of helpful reflection for me. .... --- Jackhat1@a... wrote: > Sarah, > > Thanks. I think I understand your position now. Is this a good analogy? > If I > take you to a jazz concert, I might explain the "rules" of jazz, > assuming you > knew little about jazz. You would then react to jazz differently in the > future. You wouldn't have to had done anything but your preceptions > would change. .... S: I think this is a very good analogy. In just the same way, how we read a sutta before we had considered much about the Buddha’s teachings was different to how it is now with a little more consideration and understanding. with greater insight, it will be very different again. For example, the more understanding there is about namas and rupas, the less we’ll be inclinded to think in terms of kinds of people, guests, robbers and physical surroundings in a conventional sense when we read about these and the more inclined we’ll be to reflect on changing cittas (kinds of consciousness),sense objects, kilesa (defilements) and inner qualities whilst reading the various metaphors and descriptions for these. ..... J: > I agree with you that being attached to striving or to anything > including > formal meditation is dangerous. There is the same danger, I think, in > being > attached to avoiding formal meditation and to studying the suttas. ..... S: Yes, the most dangerous attachment, as we read in the texts, is that of wrong view which expresses itself in rite and ritual (silabbata paraamaasa)which there has been some recent discussion about, so I’d like to add a couple of quotes. This is the kind of attachment which contains the belief that purification comes about by following a particular practice or activity. ***** “Likewise it [clinging (upaadaana)] clings to rites and rituals, thus it is rites and rituals clinging; also it is rites and rituals and it is clinging, thus it is rites and rituals clinging. For ox-asceticism, ox vows and so on (see M i 387f) are themselves kinds of clinging, too, because of the belief that purification comes about thus. Likewise, they theorise by means of that, thus it is theory; they cling by means of that, thus it is clinging. What do they theorise about, or to what do they cling? Self. the clinging to theories about self is self-theory clinging. Or, by means of that they cling to a self that is a mere theory about self; thus it is self-theory clinging.” (Sammohavinodanii, transl as Dispeller, 845). ***** S: In other words, whilst attachment is very common, when it is accompanied by wrong views, views that any activity -- including sutta study or avoidance of any other activity -- will by itself lead to any purification, the danger of following on the wrong track increases. Whilst we may all laugh at the idea of having any ox vows, I believe that wrong views and silabbata paraamaasa are very insidious and likely to sneak in when least expected, such as during our ‘practice’ whether that be sitting in formal meditation or reading a sutta as you suggest. Only a sotapanna no longer clings to wrong views including silabbata paraamaasa, by understanding impermanence and the noble truth of suffering inherent in all the khandhas: ***** “One who sees consciousness as impermanent fully understands nutriment consisting of consciousness, he abandons the perversion of [perceiving] permanence in the impermanent, he crosses the flood of ignorance, he is loosed from the bond of ignorance, he becomes canker-free in respect of the canker of ignorance, he breaks the bodily tie of holding to rites and rituals. He does not cling by the clinging to views. “Since blessings thus will come from seeing them as murderers etcetera, Therefore the wise should see the aggregates as murderers etcetera.” (Dispeller, 159) ..... J:<...> > Here is another parallel. I have run several marathons (26.2 miles). > Training > involves getting up very early in the morning and running for 1-2 hours. > This > is day after day in all kinds of weather. When I started the intensive > training leading up to a race, I would have to force myself to get out > the door. > But, after a couple weeks, I just did it. No will power was involved. > > There might have been a point in your mental development when you were > attached to studying the suttas. Now, it probably is automatic. .... S: I can relate to your training. Sometimes I join intensive yoga courses and have to also get up very early every morning and ‘push’ myself through a tough Astanga practice (with lots of breathing work;-)). I’m not sure, however, how far we can take these analogies. Any wise consideration or reflection or insight now would not be as a result of the many moments of past attachment or wrong view, but as a result of accumulated wise reflection and so on *in spite of* those views. It is true, however, as you suggest, that conditions are extraordinarily complicated and in effect, anything can be a supporting condition for any presently arising dhamma. To give a very simple example, anger now could be a supporting condition for wisdom by being the object of that wisdom. This would not mean, however, that we’d encourage anyone in a practice of anger in order that wisdom might develop. That would definitely be wrong practice. Jack, I’d like to also comment that though it might seem that I and others here read and intellectualise a lot, I don’t really see it that way at all. Neither Jon or I, for example, have ever read dhamma texts for more than half an hour or hour at a stretch. We’ve always been too busy with work, household affairs, exercise or simply having ordinary fun. For example, over the weekend, we both worked, went to yoga classes, walked up the Peak, and spent a fair amount of time at the Rugby Sevens (which England won for the third year in a row!!). During these activities, I didn’t think about reading any texts, but when we had a little free time at home in between ordinary chores, I’d naturally read messages on the list, look up references or read part of a sutta -- sometimes just a few lines -- and reflect further. It’s certainly never because I feel that this is what has to be done, but the value in the reflecting and in any moments of understanding at anytime during any of those other activities becomes more and more apparent, I think, leading to more confidence and reflection naturally and without any rules. I also enjoy sharing any considerations with others here as well. Hope to hear more of your reflections too. Metta, Sarah ====== 31805 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) Dear Htoo (& Ken O), --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your explanation and for your precious time. Your post is > clear. But one question. Why can pannatta not be the object of > mahasatipatthana? .... S: Thanks, Htoo, this is a very important question. We have to consider what satipatthana is and what the purpose of developing it is. Simply put, it is the development of the path which penetrates the 4 Noble Truths step by step, initially by clearly comprehending namas and rupas. From the Tiika to the Satipatthana Sutta we read: “Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word ‘way’? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness.” Your question is why can’t pa~n~natti be objects of satipatthana? The reason is that in an ultimate sense, pa~n~natti don’t exist, they are merely ‘imagined’ or conceptualised and therefore the knowing about pa~n~natti, however wise the knowing may be, merely leads to more conceptualising and never to the direct comprehending of realities directly appearing at this very moment. This is why the development of samatha (which usually has concept as object), however much calmness and and other wholesome qualities developed, cannot lead to insights or vipassana which can eventually eradicate kilesa (defilements). Understanding the truths has to begin with understanding the truth, however little that may be, at this very moment when seeing, visible object, feeling, thinking or other paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) appear and can be the objects of satipatthana. This is quite different from reflection about the ‘concept’ of that reality or any other. I think that only by clearly understanding this distinction and seeing the importance of knowing paramattha dhammas (realities) directly can the path really begin. This is why I and others go to some lengths to clarify comments about the ayatanas, dhatus, khandhas or objects of satipatthana as only referring to these realities. Please let me know if this isn’t clear or if there’s anything to discuss further. I’m also repeating the quote Ken O just gave from the Vibhanga at the end of the post on the definition of dhammayatana. Metta, Sarah Ken O: >Lets take a look at why panati cannot be ayatana “According to The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga), 167. Therein what is ideational base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of preception, agregate of mental concomitants and that invisible non-impingment material quality included in the ideational base; the unconditional element (i.e. Nibbana).” ========================================== 31806 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Suan & All, I’m linking in your earlier message with section 357 as well, because I think it’s useful and I’m giving the translation for this part too. ..... Suan:> The word "ANUPASSII" as in "Kaayaanupassii" occurs many times in the Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Anupassii, when meaning a wise observer, is one who has "Anupassanaa". When we have the term "Anupassanaa", this amounts to having the term "Vipassanaa" as well. Pali quote coming! Both the terms "anupassanaa" and "vipassanaa" in their turn are merely the synonyms of the term "paññaa". Please view the following Pali quote from Section 357, Vibha~nga, the second Abhidhamma Pi.taka text. This quote defines the term "Anupassii" by simple asking "What is anupassanaa (katamaa anupassanaa)?" "Vibha~nge pana anupassiiti tattha "katamaa anupassanaa? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa VIPASSANAA sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaa paasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaa ratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ayam vuccati anupassanaa." Did you see the term "vipassanaa" in capital letters? Please also check other synonyms such as Sammaadi.t.thi (the Right View) as the last one.< **** Sarah: Translation given in PTS Book of Analysis: “357. ‘Contemplating [anupassiiti]’ means: Therein what is contemplation [anupassanaa]? that which is wisdom [paññaa], understanding [pajaananaa], :[see par 525]: absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called contemplation. Of this contemplation he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished. Therefore this is called ‘contemplating’.” ***** Suan:>I notice that she translated Vipassanaa as intuition and sampajaññam as intelligence. .... S: Yes, not the best and neither is awareness below for sampaja~n~na, which clearly is a synonym for pa~n~naa (insight or clear comprehension*). ..... Suan: The following is Pali passage from Section 525, Vibha~nga. 525. "Sampajaano"ti tattha katamam sampajaññam? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.diccam kosallam nepuññam vebhabyaa cintaa upaparikkhaa bhuuriimedhaa pari.naayikaa vipassanaa sampajaññam patodo paññaa paññindriyam paññaabalam paññaasattham paññaapaasaado paññaa-aaloko paññaa-obhaaso paññaapajjoto paññaaratanam amoho dhammavicayo sammaadiµµhi– idam vuccati "sampajaññam". Iti imaaya ca satiyaa iminaa ca sampajaññena upeto hoti …pe… samannaagato. Evam bhikkhu sato sampajaano abhikkamati, sato sampajaano pa.tikkamati, sato sampajaano aaloketi, sato sampajaano viloketi, sato sampajaano samiñjeti, sato sampajaano pasaareti, sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, sa~nghaa.tipattaciivaradhaara.ne sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, asite piite khaayite saayite sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, uccaarapassaavakamme sato sampajaanakaarii hoti, gate .thite nisinne sutte jaagarite bhaasite tu.nhiibhaave sampajaanakaarii hoti.< ***** Sarah: Translation from ‘Book of Analysis’: “525: ‘Aware’[Sampajaano] means: Therein what is awareness [sampajaññam]? that which is wisdom [paññaa], understanding, investigation, research, truth investigation, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, insight, awareness, goad, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power of wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, jewel of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called awareness. Thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is possessed, :see para 357: furnished. Thus a bhikkhu mindful and aware approaches; mindful and aware he departs; mindful and aware he looks ahead; mindful and aware he looks around; mindful and aware he bends; mindful and aware he stretches; mindful he acts with awareness; in bearing the outer robe, the alms-bowl and the under robe, mindful he acts with awareness; in eating, in drinking, in chewing, in tasting, mindful he acts with awareness; in walking, in standing, in sitting, in sleeping, in waking, in talking, in being silent, he acts with awareness.” ***** Suan: If you could add English translation, it would be very useful for the readers who want to practice Sampajaññam meditation. .... Sarah: So we see that as you’ve been stressing, I think, sati sampaja~n~na (mindfulness and clear comprehension) whether discussed in the suttas or the Abhidhamma, whether referred to as satipatthana, vipassana, anupassanaa or pa~n~na, refers to the development of insight, accompanied by all the eightfold path factors arising at any time. Good work and everyone gets a good taste of Abhidhamma from the texts;-) Metta, Sarah p.s What do you have for section 550? ====================================== *Comy to Satipatthana Sutta, Soma transl: “Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. [Tika] "Clearly comprehending" = Discerning rightly, entirely andequally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. [T] "Rightly" = Correctly [aviparitam]. [T] "Entirely" = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. [T] "Equally" = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya].” Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] [T] "Necessary in all circumstances" = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulnes. =========== 31807 From: sarahdhhk Date: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:57pm Subject: Re: Gradual Training Hi Ken O & Howard, You were having a delightful discussion on some of the lines in MN70. Naturally we read them (or even translate them) according to our understanding of the meaning;-) I've been meaning to join in. ..... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 > < practise, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] > visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays > respect to im, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; > having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; he examines the meaning of > the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he > gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings; when he has gained a > reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, and, yes, > even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to > useful volition. After all, we start where we are. > Howard > Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' > > would sound better to some ears.) > > ------------------------------------------------- .... S: ;-) `Chando jaayati, chandajaato ussahati', wholesome chanda arises as conditioned by the reflections on the teachings. ..... > k: Hmm, I think I have said there is very thin line in distinguishing > being conditioned by considering dhamma and one that is being > condition by a deliberate action. When he applies his will, it is > conditioned by his zeal which is condition by all the way to hearing > of dhamma. It is clear that he does not purposedly will, he applied > it because of considering of dhamma (conditions condition) .... S: Well said, Ken O. The thin line between silabata paraamaasa and chanda arising naturally with pa~n~naa. .... > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and effort. > > (Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it > actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) > > ----------------------------------------------- .... S: `ussahitvaa tuleti, tulayitvaa' he examines what is experienced with pa~n~naa again. Or we can say, panna examines the dhammas directly. .... > k: When one scrutinizes do one need to purposedly go and > scrutinizes. Have you ever suddenly recall an idea and scrutinize it > at the moment. After scrutinzes and known it is beneficial, > confidence of the dhamma will built up, and that confidence will > condition striving and *resolutely* ;-). .... S: `padahati, pahitatto...' strives, takes up, confronts the ultimate truth. Or again, pa~n~naa directly knows the truth. We had the same word for penetrating the truth in the Vism I think. `....and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom'* * BB note: "MA: with the mental body he realises Nibbana, the ultimate truth, and he penetrates it with the wisdom pertaining to the supramundane path." As you say, Ken O, no self or will to actively have zeal or strive, but panna by considering, examining, scrutinising, developing and realising the truths will naturally and inevitably realise nibbana directly. Howard, I appreciated your good-humoured questioning of Ken O's quote and comments;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31808 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Hi All Time for me to work again 62 Herein, it might be [asked]: How can it be known that these formations have ignorance as their condition? -- By the fact that they exist when ignorance exist. For when unknowing -- in other words, ignorance – of suffering, etc, is unabandoned in a man, owing firstly to his unknowing about suffering and about the past, etc, then he believes the suffering of the round of rebirths to be pleasant and he embarks upon the three kinds of formation which are the cause of that very suffering. Owing to his unknowing about suffering's origin he embarks upon formation, that subordinated to craving, are actually the cause of suffering, imagining them to be the cause of pleasure. And owing to his unknowing about cessation and the path, he misperceives the cessation of suffering to be in some particular destiny [such as Brahma world] that is not in fact cessation; he misconceives the path to cessation, believing it to consist in sacrifices, mortifications for immortality, etc, which are not in fact the path to cessation; and so while aspiring to the cessation of suffering, he embarks upon the three kinds of formations in the form of sacrifices, mortification for immortality and so on. 63 Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four truths in particular prevents him from recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering called the fruit of merit, which is fraught with the many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death and so he embarks upon the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental formations, in order to attain that [kind of suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a cliff. Also not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually breeds great distress owing to the suffering in its change and that it gives little satisfaction, he embarks upon the formation of merit of the kinds already stated, which is the condition for that very [suffering in change], like a moth that falls into a lamp's flame, and like the man who wants the drop of honey and licks the honey-smeared knife edge. Also not seeing the danger in indulgence of sense desires, etc with its results, [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and overcome by defilements, he embarks upon the formation of demerit that occurs in the three doors [of kamma], like a child who plays with filth, and like a man who wants to die and eats poison. Also, unaware of the suffering due to formations and the suffering-in-change [inherent] in kamma results in the immaterial sphere, owing to the perversions of [wrongly perceiving them as] eternal etc, he embarks upon the formation of the imperturbable which is a mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city. 64 So formations exist only when ignorance exists, not when it does not; and that is how it can be known that these formations have ignorance as their condition. This is said too: “Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance, he forms the formation of merit, forms the formation of demerit, forms the formation of the imperturbable. As soon as bhikkhu's ignorance is abandoned and clear vision arisen, bhikkhus, with the fading of away of ignorance and the arising of clear vision he does not form even formations of merit' [cf. S.ii.82) Ken O 31809 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Dear Sukin, Please find my comments online below. Sorry for the length of the post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Dear Eznir, > > Thanks for your very gentle and considerate post. :-) > > You said: > > The story about using the raft to cross the stream and leaving it > > behind as one proceeds on his way.... has no meaning if not > > understood in this context of 'control' or 'aiming for results'. > > Or should we say, that the real meaning would be understood, only > when we have reached that stage of development. ;-) ************************************** eznir: Yes, of course! ******************************** > > > Of course there is no 'self' who does the controlling or who aims > for > > results, but there comes a stage, as things proceed, when this > need > > to 'control' or 'aim for results'(that *this*) becomes > meaningless! > > At which time one leaves them behind, like the raft, and proceeds > on > > his way. > > What would be the raft for one who is developing intellectual > understanding of the Buddha's teachings? ******************************************* eznir: I suppose he has not even got onto the raft, let alone rowing upstream towards Nibbana! :-)) I suppose he is still fabricating the raft, the 37 enlightenment factors in particular. What is Intellectual Understanding anyway? I think it is Constructive Thinking, whether it be the Buddha's Teaching or even crossing a busy road. The cluster of thoughts(that constitute intellectual understanding) that precede an act must be just right if it is to bear fruit. If not one would meet with an accident(as in the case of crossing the road). Before dressing up, one could imagine how perfectly dressed one could be. But when dressing up there is a proper sequence to follow. One cannot wear the outer garments before wearing the inner ones. Nor can one take a face wash with all the make-up done. The same with Lord Buddha's Teachings, one may have a perfect intellectual grasp of the Teachings, but how to get there, or rather, how to condition ones mind, from the Puthujjana's end is why we practice. ****************************************************** > > > If one has developed ones eyesight to even see the microbes > swimming > > in ones blood stream, why take a blood sample and use a microscope > to > > see them! One can now do a way with those paraphernalia. Just like > > that! > > The problem is when we so called, "use a microscope", we don't > notice that our eyes have become watery due to eagerness, and so > what we see is distorted. Though we may manage to get our theory > right, we still have to watch out for Tanha. ************************************************** eznir: This is where practice comes in, after sila having conditioned the mind to be in the present moment. Talking of Tanha, even now, in my posts, I see conceit mocking at me at times! But perhaps, if one merely state the Dhamma and do not extol nor disparage, I suppose one is doing the right thing. :-)) ****************************************************** > > Take a puthujjana and an arahant. They too are two ends of the > same > > stick. And a sekha stands in-between! Looking at a sekha from the > > puthujjana's end of the `stick' he is not an arahant as he still > has > > things to do. Looking from the arahant's end he is not a > puthujjana > > because he has overcome three of the ten fetters that define a > > puthujjana. > > > > Now where do *we* stand on this `stick'? It is from this > standpoint > > of view that *we* should traverse(application of the 4 noble > truths) > > towards the arahant's end of the stick. It is all well that *we* > > should have a `perfect' view of what the Dhamma is, but if that is > > not where *we* stand, then *we* should know how to get there. > > Yes, continue to read, listen and ponder, not to be > accumulating `information', but to understand. ***************************************************** eznir: Yes, accumulation of information by itself, is a mere collection of ideas. It only makes things more difficult for the mind to see the truth. Since it now has more `ideas' to sift through to realize the junk from reality. What we read confronts us in privacy. ********************************************* > But even if we do > this, a great many other conditions will determine if in fact there > will be any understanding. And then, when this theoretical level > will condition the practice level and how much of that will > ultimately condition realization. ********************************************** eznir: This is where reflective acceptance of the Teachings is necessary to condition the mind. Then the junk can be discarded. One then builds up a thought structure that is closely knitted, the incompatible thoughts having been abandoned. This mesh of dhamma when seen(in the present moment) reveals Paticcasamuppada, the structure of existence, the dependent condition of everything in every other thing. ********************************** > > > Intention is action. It is this right intention accompanied with > > right view that gets one to the goal. > > All the cetasikas accompanying mundane insight will be sobhana, so > in a way, you could say that the intention will also be `right'. > However, as I understand it, `Intention' does not play any major > role with regard to this. The little that I have read, I think the > Buddha stressed on Panna, Sati, Concentration and Effort. If > anything, I think what determines if a kusala `action' will be > completed, is "effort", and this may be why the Buddha stressed > quite a bit about this factor. But what is the quality of effort > depending on? The other > path factors or cetasikas. > > Let me give you a personal example. Some time ago, I heard on tape, > K. Sujin giving the example of two people having the desire > to `give'. In one person there is desire to give, but he does not, > because there is lack of effort to do it promptly. The second one > does, immediately. Soon after I was confronted with a situation > where I hesitated to give, not because I didn't have feelings of > dana, but it required a little work. At that moment I remembered > what K. Sujin said, I saw that the only thing that was holding me > back was lack of effort. At this point, effort was aroused, and I > gave. The `intention' was more or less the same, but when I gave, I > believe panna saw thina and mida, and effort was aroused. ******************************************* eznir: I think Intention plays a major role with regard to anything for that matter. Which is why the Lord Buddha said intention is kamma. And kamma is what we all have to stop `making' if we are to realize Nibbana, which an Ariyasavaka does when he realizes Arahatship. And therefore the actions of an Arahat has no kammic effect. Kamma is something that we are perpetually engaged with, if not we cannot speak of an existence. Intention and Kamma are two sides of the same coin, which is why intention is kamma. With respect to taking effect there are 4 types of kamma, (1)immediately effective (2) subsequently effective (3)indefinitely effective (4)defunct. In your example, the fact that you hesitated to give, your intention was not immediately effective. Nevertheless you remembered the tape of K. Sujin which conditioned your mind to give subsequently. Intention in this way ripens into action at a later time(hence subsequently effective). This intention, at the time the action of giving was committed, is the `matured intention' of the one you made when you hesitated to give. The intention at the moment when you hesitated to give must have been accompanied with thoughts of lobha. But thoughts of dana got the upper hand when you remembered the tape by K. Sujin. In this way, at all times, we live in an environment of thoughts. Which thought will materialize into action, depends on which thought catches your attention at the moment. The resulting action is bodily, verbal or mental, though not isolated but intricately connected to each other. The environment of thoughts we live in a given moment, though seemingly random, is in some way connected to the situation at hand. Like in this example(the-situation-to-give) was obstructed with lobha thoughts(not-to-give) and the dana thoughts(to-give) was prompted by what you heard formerly of K. Sujin(merit-of-giving). These thoughts are in the foreground that occupies our mind(which we conventionally call the present moment) against a background of thoughts normally resulting from our five senses, such as ambient noise, visuals, body balance etc. Our need to think is always a means to an end. Therefore the seemingly random thinking, we call mental activity, is with intention. And their time of maturity depends on various other factors. ********************************** > > > And as *we* traverse in that > > direction *we* should shed all the erroneous thoughts that *we* > > harboured so far(cessation of `little' dukkhas) that contributed > to > > the wrong understanding of the Dhamma. And how does one know the > > folly of our thoughts? By our own experience of the Dhamma, and > > definitely not by referencing to external sources! > > True. But what foundation is experiential knowledge based upon? > Intellectual knowledge, isn't it? Without a firm intellectual > knowledge to condition practice and developing understanding through > increased familiarity of the characteristic of dhammas, what does it > mean to learn and grow in wisdom? If our present level is such that > whatever reflection that is done, does not escape any limited and > distorted way that we might interpret experiences, is it not wise to > reference the external source, namely the Texts? ************************************************** eznir: Intellectual knowledge by itself does not condition practice. If that were true then those professors and scholars in Buddhism would have realized the Dhamma. I think intention is what conditions the mind that conditions the practice. Through practice one develops understanding. Practice is mere repetition of actions that are conducive to Nibbana. When practice is perfect ones actions become habitual. I said, intentions condition the mind. Take the 5 precepts for instance. When one is about to break a precept, the thought that one is under oath crops up. Then one is left with the option of either breaking or keeping the precept. If one keeps the precept one is conditioning the mind towards Nibbana, if one breaks it, away from Nibbana. Continuously keeping the precept, ones mind is habitually conditioned to keep the precept. This becomes second nature. One then does not kill even a mosquito when bitten but simply blows it away. It is said that this then conditions the mind to a great many other things(refer http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/006-akankheyya-sutta-e1.htm). The presence of the experience must be immediately present and the reflection must be connected as if with an umbilical cord to the experience, for things to be verified. In this way distortion is overcome and doubts cleared. Referencing external sources, particularly the tripitaka, is helpful since we do not have a good memory. *************************************** > > > Since kamma is still active in a non-arahant, things cannot be as > > autonomous as one would like to believe, like in inanimate things. > > The essential difference between inanimate and animate things is > life- > > action, kamma, the ability to choose(intention). > > This sounds like a western philosophical idea? ************************************************* eznir: I was stating things in their most fundamental aspects, lobha and dosa, and the fact that we choose either is due to moha. Moreover they may seem Western but Lord Buddha discovered them long before! *********************************************** > Isn't life more than > just to be able to choose (which I don't believe in. ;-)). ******************************************* eznir: Doesn't all that Life has to offer spring from these roots, Lobha, Dosa and Moha or their counterparts? And are we not choosing from either one(lobha/alobha or dosa/adosa) in any given situation? ***************************************** > > > No matter how perfect our theoretical understanding of the > intricacies of the > > Dhamma is, in every moment of our existence we face this > > question, "what to do with this moment?" And the best course of > > action would be to do that course of action that would cease the > need > > to do that course of action, eventually!(that is when we leave the > > raft and go our ways). > > And what if one sees at that point, that *this* moment is already > conditioned and with it comes detachment, isn't this already an > instance of `leaving the raft' no matter how slightly? ;-) ********************************************** eznir: I wouldn't say, "leaving the raft" but would put it as "having rowed upstream" some distance(in the downward flow of defilements). I think leaving consciousness altogether, as in `anidassana vinnana' of an Arahat, would constitute `leaving the raft'. *********************************************** > > Thanks for you comments. It is good to communicate with you. > > Metta, > Sukin. With you too. Metta eznir 31810 From: sarahdhhk Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Ray, (Doret & All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond Hendrickson" wrote: > I tend to agree with Doret here. There also seems to be Sutta support > for the position that helping others is one aspect of one's own practice > and indeed is part of helping our self. This is clearly pointed out in one > of my favor ate Suttas, the Acrobat, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-019.h tml . .... S: I was very interested to read this sutta (only this weekend) and your comments. How can we encourage you both to add more comments? B.Bodhi also adds some helpful commentary notes which I'll intersperse in the ATI transl: .... R: >At > first it appears that the Sutta is strong support for the position that > each of us can best help others by working on our own practice, and indeed > I think this is the best approach. ... S:168 "Spk: The master protects himself when he holds the pole firmly, moves with his apprentice, and looks constantly at the top of the pole. the apprentice protects himself when he keeps his body straight, balances himself against the wind, sets up steady mindfulness, and sits down motionless." .... R: But the Sutta ends with this..... > > "Monks, a frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll > watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the > thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one > watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after > oneself. .... S: 169 "Spk: The bhikkhu who gives up frivolous activity and pursues, develops, and cultivates his basic meditation subject day and night attains arahantship. then, when others see him and gain confidence in him, they become destined for heaven. This one protects others by protecting himself." .... R: > "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through > pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to > it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. .... S: 169 "Spk: The bhikkhu who gives up frivolous activity and pursues, develops, and cultivates his basic meditation subject day and night attains arahantship. then, when others see him and gain confidence in him, they become destined for heaven. This one protects others by protecting himself." .... R: > "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through > endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. > This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. .... S: 170 " The four terms are khantiyaa avihi.msaaya mettataaya anudayataaya. Spk takes the last three as respectively compassion, lovingkindness, and altruistic joy, and explains this maxim from a narrowly monastic perspective thus: "The bhikkhu develops the jhaanas based on the brahmavihaara, then uses the jhaana as a basis for insight and attains arahantship. This one protects himself by protecting others." ..... R: > "A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch > after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, > 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after > others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself." > > So here, IMO, we can see that "engaged Buddhism," be it helping > prisioners or poor, etc, can indeed by an aspect of practice where one is > wathing after themselves by watching after others. I think it is a very > individual thing, and there are many ways to help, but I dont think as a > general rule there has to be a hard line drawn between helping others and > helping oneself. ....Ray .... S: Ultimately, there are no beings or people at all, but the Buddha encouraged the development of all wholesome qualities and the Brahma viharas can be developed as objects of samatha in daily life. I agree with you comment about there not being any general rule or hard lines. It'll depends on inclinations and tendencies as to what mental states arise and what the objects of insight will be. Thanks for this, Ray. Any more favourites??? Metta, Sarah p.s RobK recently reminded us about another acrobat who had the accumulations who became an arahant at the top of his pole on listening to a few words from the Buddha whilst sulking: http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm#348 "On the seventh day, a long pole was put up and Uggasena stood on top of it. At a signal given from below he somersaulted seven times on the pole. At about this time, the Buddha saw Uggasena in his vision and knew that time was ripe for Uggasena to attain arahatship. So, he entered Rajagaha and willed that the audience should turn their attention to him instead of applauding Uggasena for his acrobatic feats. When Uggasena saw that he was being neglected and ignored, he just sat on top of the pole, feeling very discontented and depressed. The Buddha then addressed Uggasena, "Uggasena, a wise man should abandon all attachment to the khandha aggregates and strive to gain liberation from the round of rebirths." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 348. Give up the past, give up the future, give up the present. Having reached the end of existences, with a mind freed from all (conditioned things), you will not again undergo birth and decay. At the end of the discourse Uggasena, who was still on top of the pole, attained arahatship. He came down and was soon admitted to the Order by the Buddha." =========== 31811 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Chuck (Matt, Ken O & All), --- Charles Thompson wrote: > If I may, > > imho, it is our mind (or heart) that frees us or limits us whether we > are in a city or in the countryside. A room in a condo, a room in a > Buddhist temple or a cave can all serve the same purpose - the only > difference is in our perception... .... S: Good to see you posting, Chuck and I fully agree with your comments here. If we read or hear about someone living in a cave or a forest without any attachments, it would be a mistake to think that if we were to live in the same place that would by itself be the way to be rid of attachments. The cause of suffering is attachment, fed by ignorance, not the city or the condo. .... > offered with sincere metta (maitri), ... S: Look forward to more;-) .... M: >Has anybody here gone to any meditation caves? The > idea of just being able to withdraw from the society that we know and > naturally find ourselves and clear out minds in some of those caves > sounds amazing to me. > > > "The bliss of lusts and heaven-world equal not one sixteenth of the > bliss of craving's ending." UDAANA 2.2 .... S: Matt, as you appreciate the Udaana, you may like to look at the story of Meghiya (4:1) as discussed in this earlier post of mine. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m20049.html Also, if you have time, pls review the messages under ‘Seclusion’ and ‘solitude’ in Useful Posts and let me know any comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah p.s As Ken O said, Matt, you’re welcome to ‘disturb’ any of us anytime - NAGs or non-NAGs;-)-, though I’m usually rather slow. ======= 31812 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Do we see in dreams Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > I remember we did discuss that about dreams, and my stand is that > there is no seeing in dreams because there is no eye and form in > dreaming to conditioned eye conscioness to arise. Here is the sutta > quote MN 28 Mahahatthipadopama > "If friends, internally eye is intact but no external form comes into > range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then > there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciouness. > If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its > range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then > there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of > conscoiusness. But when internally the eye is intact and external > forms come into its range and there is the corresponding [conscious] > engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding > class of consciouness." .... S: It’s a good quote and of course I agree with your comments and logic. By chance, a couple of days before you posted this, a friend sent me the following link to a sutta off-list: Mettanisamsa Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s6-1 We read about the 11 benefits of developing metta: “1. "He sleeps in comfort. 2. He awakes in comfort. *3. He sees no evil dreams.* 4. He is dear to human beings. 5. He is dear to non-human beings. 6. Devas (gods) protect him. 7. Fire, poison, and sword cannot touch him. 8. His mind can concentrate quickly. 9. His countenance is serene. 10. He dies without being confused in mind. 11. If he fails to attain Arahantship (the highest sanctity here and now, he will be reborn in the brahma-world." There is the reference to ‘sees...dreams’, but I read it in the sense that one talks about seeing a mirage or seeing any other illusions whilst one is awake. It was also suggested to me that if one ‘thought about concepts all night’ one would be ‘exhausted by morning’ and I think there’s some truth in this. Deep sleep without wild or evil dreams is a lot more refreshing and an arahant who doesn’t dream at all sleeps the most peacefully of all. ..... K: > Actually this is prove the sense process is valid because the > corresponding [conscious] engagement represents five door adverting > consciousness, without it there will be no sense consciouness .... S: Helpful comments, Ken. Metta, Sarah ====== 31813 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Ken O, Long time no chat! Hope that my butting in helps rather than hinders! Here is a bit of information about the Pure Abodes (I've not heard that they were considered at the same level as the immaterial planes - could you explain more?): The Pure Abodes (Suddhavasa): Peerless Gods (Akanittha), Clear- Sighted Gods (Sudassi), Beautiful Gods (Suddassa), Untroubled Gods (Atappa), Durable Gods (Aviha) ============================== Only those who attain the third holy stage (Anagami; non-returner) will be reborn, after death, in these realms. After death in a Pure Abode, the Anagami will be reborn into another Pure Abode (same level or higher); Anagami born into the Akanittha realm will definitely parinibbana from this realm (no rebirth). Once born in the Pure Abodes, the Anagami will attain Arahantship and parinibbana from one of these realms. All beings reborn into this realm are Anagami with the fourth jhana but the controlling principle or the directive force (indriya), which is the predominant character of each individual, will determine the realm where he is to be reborn: - One whose directive force is saddha (faith) will be reborn in the realm of Aviha for 1000 eons - One whose directive force is viriya (energy) will be reborn is the realm of Atappa for 2000 eons - One whose directive force is sati (mindfulness) will be reborn in the realm of Sudassa for 4000 eons - One whose directive force is samadhi (concentration) will be reborn in the realm of Sudassi for 8000 eons - One whose directive force is panna (knowledge or reason) will be reborn in the realm of Akanittha for 16000 eons According to the Mahapadana Sutta, the Pure Abodes were the only planes of existence where the Buddha, in his long wandering in Samsara before attaining Buddhahood, had never been born. The Buddha thought of this one day and appeared among the Gods of the Suddhavasa. Many Gods of the realm came to him and told him of the important events which had occurred in the periods of many previous Buddhas, beginning from the time of the Buddha named Vipassi who enlightened the world with his teachings ninety-one eons before the present one. The cittas that can arise in this realm are as follows: - 4 lobha-mula citas not associated with wrong view (Javana) - 1 moha-mula citta with restlessness (Javana) - 11 rootless cittas, not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) - 8 wholesome sense sphere cittas(Javana) - 5 wholesome fine material sphere cittas (Javana) <- MOST COMMON - 5 resultant fine material sphere cittas (bhavanga) - 4 wholesome immaterial sphere cittas (Javana) - 1 Arahant path citta (supramundane) - 1 Anagami fruit citta (supramundane) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Nina or Sarah > > If you have time could you tell me more about Pure Abode and why it > is a rupa plane even though it is always consider the same level as > in immaterial planes. > > Ken O 31814 From: Charles Thompson Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:05am Subject: A Sincere Thank You to All on this DSG Forum, Was: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology A very warm thank you Sarah. What you wrote about attachment and ignorance echos what my junior preceptor, Phra Maha Tanant, at Wat Thai DC taught me some years ago. [He just completed his PhD in Buddhism and is visiting Wat Amphawan in Bangkok] I arrived a day late in Bangkok, due to a small snow storm in Philadelphia, PA USA, and only attended the last two days of services for my late Abbot, Phra Kru Sopon Viriyakoon of Wat Amphawan. I have yet to visit The Foundation. But, as soon as I complete all obligations, I will visit The Foundation as I will be here until June. Finally and very importantly, let me thank you all for your contributions to this great Buddhist Forum. I am sure I am not alone in this sentiment. We, your great "lurkers," learn immensely from your discussions which greatly aids in our practice. with sincere metta (maitri), Chuck ............................................................. >From: Sarah >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology >Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:36:05 +0800 (CST) > >Hi Chuck (Matt, Ken O & All), > > --- Charles Thompson wrote: > If I may, > > > > imho, it is our mind (or heart) that frees us or limits us whether we > > are in a city or in the countryside. A room in a condo, a room in a > > Buddhist temple or a cave can all serve the same purpose - the only > > difference is in our perception... >.... >S: Good to see you posting, Chuck and I fully agree with your comments >here. If we read or hear about someone living in a cave or a forest >without any attachments, it would be a mistake to think that if we were to >live in the same place that would by itself be the way to be rid of >attachments. The cause of suffering is attachment, fed by ignorance, not >the city or the condo. >.... ........................... rest deleted ....................... _________________________________________________________________ All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn 31815 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi RobM You disappeared so long that I thought you will never come back, I was wandering was I the cause of it because of being too strong wording to you somewhere in Jan/Feb this year. If I offend you in anyway, I apologise. I think I always mixed up the pure abodes with the immaterial planes, after looking at the planes again, now become clearer. Thanks for the information. Why cant beings in the immaterial realm comes to the material realm and listen to the dhamma, it is just because they do not have rupas. Then why cant Buddha go up and expound Buddhism to them, is it because of rupa also or other reason like too much dust in their eyes. Ken O 31816 From: Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - Sarah, thank you for writing "Howard, I appreciated your good-humoured questioning of Ken O's quote and comments;-)" However, I can't find the original posts this pertains to, and there are a couple gaps in what you quote that make it hard for me, and others I would suppose, to determine what my replies you quote are in response to and whether there might not be some validity to them. I will insert markers below where I think there are some confusing gaps. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/29/04 3:00:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Ken O &Howard, > > You were having a delightful discussion on some of the lines in > MN70. Naturally we read them (or even translate them) > according to our understanding of the meaning;-) I've been > meaning to join in. > ..... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > >Continuing with the earlier sutta on MN 70 > >< gradual > >practise, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a > teacher] > >visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he > pays > >respect to im, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the > Dhamma; > >having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; he examines the > meaning of > >the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their > meaning, he > >gains a reflective acceptance of the teachings; when he has > gained a > >reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in > him; > >>>-------------------------------------------------- > ===>> Missing material here about keen interest, enthousiasm, and applying? > > Howard: > > Aha! He does, does he? Well, keen interest, enthousiasm, > and, yes, > > even hope and desire - those causes of suffering - can lead to > >useful volition. After all, we start where we are. > >Howard > > Hmm, he applies it. Whoops, there's volition! (Maybe 'kamma' > >>would sound better to some ears.) > >>------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: ;-) `Chando jaayati, chandajaato ussahati', wholesome > chanda arises as conditioned by the reflections on the > teachings. > ..... > >k: Hmm, I think I have said there is very thin line in > distinguishing > >being conditioned by considering dhamma and one that is > being > >condition by a deliberate action. When he applies his will, it is > >conditioned by his zeal which is condition by all the way to > hearing > >of dhamma. It is clear that he does not purposedly will, he > applied > >it because of considering of dhamma (conditions condition) > .... > S: Well said, Ken O. The thin line between silabata paraamaasa > and chanda arising naturally with pa~n~naa. > .... > >>------------------------------------------------ > ===>> Something missing about scrutinizing and striving resolutely? > >>Howard: > >> Hmm, he scrutinizes. That must take some will and > effort. > >>(Oh, yes, of course - it *says* that he strives. Oh my, it > >actually says that he strives *resolutely*!) > >>----------------------------------------------- > .... > S: `ussahitvaa tuleti, tulayitvaa' he examines what is experienced > with pa~n~naa again. Or we can say, panna examines the > dhammas directly. > .... > >k: When one scrutinizes do one need to purposedly go and > >scrutinizes. Have you ever suddenly recall an idea and > scrutinize it > >at the moment. After scrutinzes and known it is beneficial, > >confidence of the dhamma will built up, and that confidence > will > >condition striving and *resolutely* ;-). > .... > S: `padahati, pahitatto...' strives, takes up, confronts the ultimate > truth. Or again, pa~n~naa directly knows the truth. We had the > same word for penetrating the truth in the Vism I think. > > `....and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom'* > * BB note: > "MA: with the mental body he realises Nibbana, the ultimate truth, > and he penetrates it with the wisdom pertaining to the > supramundane path." > > As you say, Ken O, no self or will to actively have zeal or strive, > but panna by considering, examining, scrutinising, developing > and realising the truths will naturally and inevitably realise > nibbana directly. > > Howard, I appreciated your good-humoured questioning of Ken > O's quote and comments;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31817 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam Dear Sarah, Nina, Chris, Jon, Phil, Ken O, Mike N and all How are you? Thank you, Sarah, for providing Vibha~nga translations of Section 357 and 525. And also Soma Thera's commentary translation. The Section 550 Pali on my CD ROM also comes with omissions (pe "peyyaala") as follows. 550. "Sato sampajaano"ti. Tattha katamaa sati? Yaa sati anu ssati …pe… sammaasati– ayam vuccati "sati". Tattha katamam sampajaññam? Yaa paññaa pajaananaa …pe… amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi– idam vuccati "sampajaññam". Iti imaaya ca satiyaa iminaa ca sampajaññena upeto hoti …pe… samannaagato. Tena vuccati "sato sampa- jaano"ti. Today I was reading Anguttara and Majjhima commentaries on Aaka~nkheya Suttam (in both Nikaayas) where the term "vipassanaaya" occurs. Aacariya Buddhaghosa defines Vipassanaa as Anupassanaa and mentions 7 Anupassanaas. I think you, Nina and Chris (?) had a thread on Bhaddekaratta Suttam on DSG. The Bhaddekaratta Suttam highlights the urgency of the present moment, so here the Buddha no longer cares about Samatha Jhaanas. Without furhter ado, he simply asks us "to wisely observe the present phenomenon wherever it arises (paccuppanna~nca yo dhammam, tattha tatha vipassati)." If you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, how about posting here for all to see the Suttam where the Buddha taught only Vipassanaa when there is no time to waste! You could also re-cycle :-) previous discussions. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Suan & All, I'm linking in your earlier message with section 357 as well, because I think it's useful and I'm giving the translation for this part too. ..... Suan:> The word "ANUPASSII" as in "Kaayaanupassii" occurs many times in the Satipa.t.thaana Suttam. Anupassii, when meaning a wise observer, is one who has "Anupassanaa". When we have the term "Anupassanaa", this amounts to having the term "Vipassanaa" as well. Pali quote coming! < snip> 31818 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi RobM I need your expertise on this. Recently I know of a friend that commited sucide and with both of her kids. Even though I know dont really remember her, this news immersely sadden me. I read the post on transference of merits. There are three criterias, I find the last one the person should know and rejoice the merit being transfer. To me isnt this a bit difficult even though I know spirits/petas/devas can read thought directed to them. What if they do not know? I like to know are we able to transfer merit to people in the hell or animal realm. I like to know what is the kammic result of killing oneself and how one could transfer merit to this person Ken O 31819 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:34am Subject: Re: Theravada Cosmology Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > I need your expertise on this. Recently I know of a friend that > commited sucide and with both of her kids. Even though I know dont > really remember her, this news immersely sadden me. I read the post > on transference of merits. There are three criterias, I find the > last one the person should know and rejoice the merit being transfer. > To me isnt this a bit difficult even though I know > spirits/petas/devas can read thought directed to them. What if they > do not know? > > I like to know are we able to transfer merit to people in the hell or > animal realm. > > I like to know what is the kammic result of killing oneself and how > one could transfer merit to this person > The plane of rebirth depends on the nature of the last thought. If your friend committed one of the five henious deeds (matricide / patricide / murdering an Arahant / wounding a Buddha / causing a schism in the sangha) then they are destined for hell. This is a weighty kamma that will automatically arise in the last thought. The next priority is taken by near-death kamma, a potent action remembered or performed shortly before death. I suspect (but do not know) that this was at play when your friend committed suicide. In the absence of near-death kamma, habitual kamma (a frequently repeated action) influences the last thought. Finally, reserve kamma (a random act from most recent or past lives) comes into play. If the last thought is: - Delusion rooted: probable rebirth as an animal - Attachment rooted: probable rebirth as a hungry ghost - Anger rooted: probably rebirth in hell or as a titan - Rooted in non-attachment and non-anger: rebirth as a human or lower (earth-bound) deva - Rooted in non-attachment, non-anger and wisdom: rebirth as a human or deva - Associated with jhana: rebirth in fine material plane or immaterial plane I can only guess (but there is no way to be sure) that your friend's last thought was probably rooted in delusion or anger. If this is the case, there is no way for her to recieve your merits. Hell beings are not associated with this world and cannot recieve merits. Animals are too overcome with delusion to recieve merits. Hungry ghosts are attached to this world and therefore are witness to what happens here. They can sense your thoughts and share in your merits. These are the beings that can share your merits. The current state of your friend is only guess work. I strongly urge you to perform some good deed (charity, etc.) and dedicate the merit accrued to your friend. If she can recieve the merits, it is wonderful. If she cannot, you have lost nothing (in fact, the act of dedicating merits to others is itself an act of merit bringing good kammic results to you). I recently read of a woman who left her husband in Thailand to go to Singapore for a health check. She found that she had cancer of the womb and committed suicide by jumping off a building tied to her two daughters aged 3 and 5. Perhaps this is your friend. I plan to do some dana tomorrow and will dedicate this action to this woman and her daughters. Thank you for prompting me. Metta, Rob M :-) 31820 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:41am Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: >Hello Jeff Metta, Phil P.S Sarah, I know I promised not to scold people, but I honestly belive pointing this out could be helpful for Jeff. I'm not doing it to exercise my sarcasm or express ill-will. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Phil, The whole message is quite neutral. I would like to add one more piece. 'Upadana paccaya bhavo' Existence is conditioned by clinging. With much respect, Htoo Naing 31821 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theravada Cosmology Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobM > > You disappeared so long that I thought you will never come back, I > was wandering was I the cause of it because of being too strong > wording to you somewhere in Jan/Feb this year. If I offend you in > anyway, I apologise. ===== Work is overwhelming me. Don't worry, you haven't offended me - I'm very thick-skinned. ===== > I think I always mixed up the pure abodes with > the immaterial planes, after looking at the planes again, now become > clearer. Thanks for the information. Why cant beings in the > immaterial realm comes to the material realm and listen to the > dhamma, it is just because they do not have rupas. Then why cant > Buddha go up and expound Buddhism to them, is it because of rupa also > or other reason like too much dust in their eyes. Beings in the sensous realm have six senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind). Beings in the fine material realm have three senses (eye, ear, mind) so they can see and hear a Buddha when one arises. Beings in the immaterial sphere have only the mind sense (except, of course, for the unconscious / asannasatta beings). Beings in the immaterial sphere can't listen to the dhamma because they can't hear. Metta, Rob M :-) 31822 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo (& Ken O), S: Thanks, Htoo, this is a very important question. We have to consider what satipatthana is and what the purpose of developing it is. ========================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah. Everything is clear. Every word works. One more thing could you support with evidence that pannatta cannot be the arammana of mahasatipatthana? This is quite important. You will know what I mean. :-) I will be looking forward to hearing from you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 31823 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 15 ) S: Thanks, Htoo, this is a very important question. We have to consider what satipatthana is and what the purpose of developing it is. Htoo: One thing, in Myanmar we used to say khandha, ayatana, dhatu, sacca as main things to diecern Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 31824 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:57am Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > As I've said before I'm very interested in the brahma-viharas. The > one that I've consistently had the most trouble understanding and > practicing correctly (I think) is mudita - sympathetic joy. > > Here's a passage on mudita from Nina's book "Cetasikas" : > > > N: "Sympathetic joy can be developed in daily life. There are > opportunities for its development when we see someone else's good > fortune. if we see the disadvantages of jealousy there are conditions > for being appreciative when we see that someone is in good health, > has success in life and receives honour and praise." > > P: My confusion lies in the fact that since "honour and praise" > and "success in life" often come through ways that don't reflect > right understanding, how can we avoid exercising judgement? I wonder > if panna can play a role in whether mudita or karuna arises. > > > N: "If we tend to be jealous it is difficult to cultivate > sympathetic joy, since jealousy has been accumulated there are > conditions for its arising when we see that someone else receives > praise or other pleasant objects. it is useful to realize such > moments of jealousy, even when they are not coarse but more subtle. > If right understanding is being developed we will see that someone > else's success does not belong to a "person", that it is only vipaka > which is conditioned by kamma, Thus, jealousy is in fact groundless. > When right understanding sees that there are no people, no things > which exist, only nama and rupa which arise and fall away, there will > gradually be less conditions for jealousy." > > P: Perhaps I've found my answer here. Perhaps it is best to be as > uncritical as possible of others' success, in the right understanding > that if it does indeed come from wrong understanding, there is no > need for "me" to be concerned about whether to feel sympathetic joy > or compassion - vipaka will work out in the way it is being > conditioned by khamma. Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in you. There is no thought of judgement. Practicing or playing piano, or the feelings of pride / acceptance have nothing to do with right understanding. But that does not mean that they cannot be a condition for mudita arising in you. As it says in Vism XVII 102, even our own akusala can be a condition for the arising of our own kusala. If this is the case, why should the arising of our kusala be dependent on the level of right understanding of somebody else in their actions? Have I understood your question properly? Metta, Rob M :-) 31825 From: Raymond Hendrickson Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Sarahdhhk, R: Thanks very much for the commentary and the kind words. > [Original Message] > From: sarahdhhk > To: > Date: 3/29/2004 12:35:27 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence > >. > S: Ultimately, there are no beings or people at all, but the > Buddha encouraged the development of all wholesome qualities > and the Brahma viharas can be developed as objects of > samatha in daily life. I agree with you comment about there not > being any general rule or hard lines. It'll depends on inclinations > and tendencies as to what mental states arise and what the > objects of insight will be. Thanks for this, Ray. Any more > favourites??? > > Metta, The comments about the Brahma viharas is very interesting and certainly fits within the context of the Sutta. To move the contemplation of the brahmavihaara into action, engaged Buddhism, is probably a bit of a stretch of interpretation :) I do think it is reasonable to interpret the Sutta to mean that by helping others we also help ourselves, conventually speaking of course, can apply to action as well as contemplation of the brahmavihaara. This would fit in with you comments about the Buddha encouraging the development of all wholesome qualities. I also found the comments about the observation of moment to moment mental arisings to be very helpful, I think by Christine? She really points out the danger to such actions and how from moment to moment we must be aware of arisings thoughts and feelings to guard against the arising of unwholesome qualities even in the midst of action to "protect others." And of course the greatest gift or act would be the giving of the Dhamma, and in deepening our practice through the cultivation of the brahmavihaaras we are in a better position to discuss and share the Dhamma with others. Thanks very much for posting the commentary. P. S. it might be interesting for folks to post their favorite Suttas, I think perhaps those Suttas that we go to over and over again are the ones which have given rise to moments of insight. Metta ....Ray 31826 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 0:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Recognizing the Dhamma - The Eight Principles Hi Sarah, Thank you for this message. Please do add more. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor & All, > > The same Gotami sutta is also quoted and elaborated on in the > Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller) under Classification of the Jhanas, 1595f. > Let me give a small part of it: [snip] > > If you find it interesting, I can add more. > > Metta, > > Sarah 31827 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re:_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_-_5._Contentment_(§_5.1.) Hi Sarah, Thank you for the message. How does a layperson live in contentment in the market economy? It also seems to me that most commercials exploit discontent, and a prevalent message in the commercials seems to be this: "Buy this and you will be happy." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > > Metta, > > Sarah 31828 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam By following the Noble Eight Fold Path one comes inexorably to Cessation (nibbana). Through Right View (samma-ditthi) one observes Right thought, speech, action and livelihood (samma-sankappa, vaca, kammanta and ajiva). Through this Right Effort (samma-vayam) one arrives at Right Mindfulness (samma-sati). Right Mindfulness culminates in Right Meditation (sama-samadhi). Right Meditation bares various fruits including absorption (jhana) and insight (vipassana). These fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path lead inexorably to Cessation (nibbana). Maha-cattarisaka SuttaMN117, Having developed Right View without the fermentations, one should develop Right Resolve without the fermentations. And how does one develop Right Resolve wihtout the fermentations? By being resolved on Right Meditation (samma-samadhi). And for what purpose is Right Meditation developed? For the purpose of developing Right Knowledge. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn117.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta, DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html "And what is right meditation (sama-samadhi)? There is the case where an aspirant -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana)... (through fourth jhana). Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." Latukikopama Sutta, MN 66 "...he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. Samadhanga Sutta AN V. 28 "He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the ecstasy (piiti) and bliss (sukha) born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by ecstasy (piiti) and bliss (sukha) born from withdrawal." Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four absorptions (jhanas) slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." Jhanasamyutta, SN 34 "Therein, bhikkhus, the meditator who is skilled both in meditation regarding absorption (jhana) and in attainment regarding absorption (jhana) is the chief, the best the foremost, the highest, the most excellent of these four kinds of meditators." Dhammapada Verse 372 Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato, Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. "There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption. One who is close to emancipation (nibbana/nirvana) has both wisdom and absorption." Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:27:00 -0000 From: "abhidhammika" Subject: Re: Vipassanaa As A Synonym Of Anupassanaa In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam If you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, how about posting here for all to see the Suttam where the Buddha taught only Vipassanaa when there is no time to waste! You could also re-cycle :-) previous discussions. With regards, Suan 31829 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Phil, an example of sympathetic joy is taking joy in the accomplishments of others, and avoiding criticism. I am happy to hear that you are working on abandoning unwholesome states and cultivating wholesome states through embodying the Brahma Viharas, excellent work. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks ******************** Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:36:18 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello all, As I've said before I'm very interested in the brahma-viharas. The one that I've consistently had the most trouble understanding and practicing correctly (I think) is mudita - sympathetic joy. <.....> 31830 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - I'm not at all confident that I can further clarify what I said here, but I'll try. Jon: You're doing a good job so far! Howard: I have no idea of what else they [dhammas] are! They are not imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not complexes. Jon: I am wondering if this description could be paraphrased as: Dhammas are the individual and fundamental phenomena (realties) arising at the present moment. Does this say the same thing as your description, or is your description intended to carry other meaning also? It's a subjective thing, I suppose, but as regards your original wording of 'direct, elementary experiential conditions', I think the words 'experiential' and 'conditions' tend to confuse the picture somewhat. 'Experiential' suggests consciousness as opposed to its object, while 'condition' suggests 'paccaya'. Howard: You are missing my point here, Jon. What people usually think of as having attributes are conventional entities like tables, trees, and rabbits. The elementary attributes these (actually nonexistent) entities supposedly have, such as hardness, motion, and warmth are paramattha dhammas. But there being no such entities, there are no attributes of them either. All there are are the paramattha dhammas and relations among them. The important point is that there *seem* to be such entities, and they *seem* to have attributes. People then naturally extrapolate from this erroneous thinking, and apply it to things that *do* exist, the paramattha dhammas. If tables have properties, they will think, then so must things like hardness. But that is not so. Hardness is hardness is hardness. There is no more to be said. Jon: Sorry I missed your point; I think I understand now. You are saying that, given people's tendency to impute attributes to conventional objects, they will also impute properties or attributes to paramattha dhammas. You are referring here to an aspect of wrong view, I believe. Going back to your original statement that drew my attention: "Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes.", now that we've discussed the various individual components of the statement, perhaps you could say a bit more about the problem you refer to here, as I'm still not clear what it is. Thanks. Jon 31831 From: Jeffrey Brooks Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Phil, you are quite right, accomplishments in a single lifetime are insignificant, when compared to tens of thousands of lifetimes. Since I have recovered the memory of tens of thousands of lifetimes, then your achievements in this lifetime are truly insignificant. While I have no "attachment" to my accomplishments, if you read the discourse of the Buddha, I am confident that you will find the Buddha and his disciples contextualized their teaching based upon attainment through "direct knowledge and experience", since I have "direct knowledge and experience" I therefore contextualize my teaching upon attainment, as well as the study of the discourses of the Buddha. Keep practicing, studying, reflecting and observing ethical conduct. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks ******************* Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:29:14 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: Re: There is no absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna), No wisdom without absorption Hello Jeff >I understand Ven. Thanissaro >Bhikkhu is about my age and he has been studying the >dhamma and meditating about as long as I have. For a man of such experience, you certainly are interested in chronology! I've only seen your posts for 2 months or so, but I've already heard many times that you have practiced for 30 years. <.......> 31832 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:28pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Rob, and Jeff, and all. R:> Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very >difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands >to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child >looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is >beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with >pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in >you. There is no thought of judgement. P: This is a great example, Rob, because in my case I'm afraid judgement would arise! As you know (if I'm not mistaken you also live in Japan, along with Rob K) a lot of kids are forced to take piano lessons by their "kyou-iku mama" mothers. (Super competitive mothers who are obsessed with their childrens' education.) Children hardly ever have time to play in the park because of English lesson, piano lessons, ballet lessons and whatever else they are forced to learn. (I once taught French to a 3 year old who was also studying English and Russian) So in that situation I would find myself wondering if the child was really beaming, or was just relieved that a tramautic disaster hadn't happened yet. So yes, I definitely struggle with mudita. I can easily underand how upekkha, metta and karuna are immeasurable and do not discriminate, but I haven't understood mudita yet. For example, it is cherry blossom season season and the other day I walked through a park where people where sipping sake under the blossoms. Being a person who still enjoys a beer on occasion, I was able to understand the wholesomeness of the way they seemed to be enjoying alcohol, and the scene was so lovely that mudita arose. But then I questioned it, knowing that alcohol drunk in a wholesome way cannot be separated from alcohol drunk in a way that makes people lose their minds. Well, that's an easy one. Mudita cannot arise when alcohol is involved. R:> As it says in Vism XVII 102, even our own akusala can be a condition > for the arising of our own kusala. If this is the case, why should > the arising of our kusala be dependent on the level of right > understanding of somebody else in their actions. P: Jeff says that mudita should mean freedom from criticizing others, and since the brahma-viharas are considered immeasurable it would seem that he's right. But it seems to me that criticism of others' can be done in a spirit of friendship and not criticizing in some situations could possibly point at indifference. Conditioned dhammas are arising, and people will do what they will do, but not in a way that completely excludes intervention from being helpful. I think if we look at our own lives we can find many cases where a word of criticism at the right time opened new windows of understanding. So while the arising of our kusula is certainly not dependent on others' right understanding, I do believe others' right understanding can give our factors a nudge in the right direction. I think of a log going down a river, veering to one side and being nudged by a man with a pole in the hope of preventing it from getting caught up on the shore. The momentum of the log (conditioned) will be the deciding factor but who knows to what degree a prod from someone might be able to right the log's course. And it doesn't do any harm to try unless conceit arises through it, or the wrong view that we can change people for the better. We can't do that. But we might be able to give them a nudge that helps them wake up a little and start doing the work themselves. BTW, Rob, I found some very excellent posts by you in the Useful Posts in which you used something like flowcharts to explain the Abhidhamma for beginners. They helped me a lot and I know I'll be returning to them. Again, I hope I'm not confusing you with someone else. :) Metta, Phil 31833 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hello all. Have to share what just happened. Every morning, I read a chapter from the Dhammapada, and this morning, just after posting on mudita, this is the first verse I saw: "When this world is ever ablaze, why this laughter, why this jubilation." (146) Of course the Buddha isn't saying that laughter and jubilation are wrong, but maybe that we can question them. That's the way I take it anyway. (The danger of reading sutta for me is that I always take whatever I read to confirm my theories, which is foolish, I know.) BTW, getting back to piano lessons, I should clarify that I don't think anyone who sends their kids to such lessons should be judged. It's just that I have seen cases of borderline abuse in the interest of early childhood education here that puts me on guard. And re kids, I find that watching/hearing them is the source of mudita that arises most easily. I seem to be more judgemental when adults are involved. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Rob, and Jeff, and all. > > > R:> Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very > >difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands > >to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child > >looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is > >beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with > >pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in > >you. There is no thought of judgement. > > > P: This is a great example, Rob, because in my case I'm afraid > judgement would arise! 31834 From: Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/29/2004 5:07:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > I'm not at all confident that I can further clarify what I > said here, but I'll try. > > Jon: > You're doing a good job so far! > > Howard: > I have no idea of what else they [dhammas] are! They are not > imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not > complexes. > > Jon: > I am wondering if this description could be paraphrased as: Dhammas > are the individual and fundamental phenomena (realties) arising at > the present moment. Does this say the same thing as your > description, or is your description intended to carry other meaning > also? > > It's a subjective thing, I suppose, but as regards your original > wording of 'direct, elementary experiential conditions', I think the > words 'experiential' and 'conditions' tend to confuse the picture > somewhat. 'Experiential' suggests consciousness as opposed to its > object, while 'condition' suggests 'paccaya'. ---------------------------- Howard: Your formulation is fine. Mine, as I'm sure you detect, additionally reflects my phenomenalist and nondualist viewpoint, but subtly, not overtly. Even without adopting that perpective of mine, it is still correct to say, I believe, that "[dhammas] are not imagined, but directly experienced, and they are simple, not complexes." -------------------------------- > > Howard: > You are missing my point here, Jon. What people usually think > of as having attributes are conventional entities like tables, trees, > and rabbits. The elementary attributes these (actually nonexistent) > entities supposedly have, such as hardness, motion, and warmth are > paramattha dhammas. But there being no such entities, there are no > attributes of them either. All there are are the paramattha dhammas > and relations among them. > The important point is that there *seem* to be such entities, > and they *seem* to have attributes. People then naturally extrapolate > from this erroneous thinking, and apply it to things that *do* exist, > the paramattha dhammas. If tables have properties, they will think, > then so must things like hardness. But that is not so. Hardness is > hardness is hardness. There is no more to be said. > > Jon: > Sorry I missed your point; I think I understand now. You are saying > that, given people's tendency to impute attributes to conventional > objects, they will also impute properties or attributes to paramattha > dhammas. You are referring here to an aspect of wrong view, I > believe. ------------------------------ Howard: Exactly. ----------------------------- > > Going back to your original statement that drew my attention: > > "Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute > distinction is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely > conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing > conditions from attributes.", > > now that we've discussed the various individual components of the > statement, perhaps you could say a bit more about the > problem you > refer to here, as I'm still not clear what it is. Thanks. -------------------------------- Howard: I'm doing no more than referring to that same wrong view. There's nothing I have to add. -------------------------------- > > Jon ============================== With metta, Howard 31838 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. Formations. Dear Ken O, Thank you very much. I have to reflect more to come back to this, there is much material here. Nina op 29-03-2004 10:10 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > 62 Herein, it might be [asked]: How can it be known that these > formations have ignorance as their condition? -- By the fact that > they exist when ignorance exist. 31839 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:14pm Subject: Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Philip, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > R:> Imagine that you attend a piano recital. A child plays a very > >difficult piece very well. After the piece is over, the child stands > >to bow to great clapping from the audience. You notice the child > >looking at his parents and his teacher in the audience. The child is > >beaming with "I did it!" The parents and teacher are beaming with > >pride. As you observe this moment, a feeling of mudita arises in > >you. There is no thought of judgement. > > > P: This is a great example, Rob, because in my case I'm afraid > judgement would arise! As you know (if I'm not mistaken you also live > in Japan, along with Rob K) a lot of kids are forced to take piano > lessons by their "kyou-iku mama" mothers. (Super competitive mothers > who are obsessed with their childrens' education.) Children hardly > ever have time to play in the park because of English lesson, piano > lessons, ballet lessons and whatever else they are forced to learn. > (I once taught French to a 3 year old who was also studying English > and Russian) So in that situation I would find myself wondering if > the child was really beaming, or was just relieved that a tramautic > disaster hadn't happened yet. ===== Please note that in this case, for you the mudita would only last a brief instant before other (mainly akusala) mental states took over. Because of natural decisive support condition, circumstances can provide the opportunity for various mental states to arise. If the piano recital example stikes a nerve with you, then perhaps you can pick another image that helps you prolong the state of mudita. Perhaps you can think of a mother cuddling her infant. Imagine the mother's look of complete contentment as she rocks in a rocking chair looking down at a baby asleep in her arms. For me, this image evokes mudita. I live in Kuala Lumpur but I fequently travel during the week (China, India, and yes, sometimes Japan). ===== > > So yes, I definitely struggle with mudita. I can easily underand > how upekkha, metta and karuna are immeasurable and do not > discriminate, but I haven't understood mudita yet. ===== Whenever there is comparison, there is mana (conceit). The kusala mental states, such as the brahma viharas, never involve any form of comparison or discrimination. ===== > > For example, it is cherry blossom season season and the other day I > walked through a park where people where sipping sake under the > blossoms. Being a person who still enjoys a beer on occasion, I was > able to understand the wholesomeness of the way they seemed to be > enjoying alcohol, and the scene was so lovely that mudita arose. But > then I questioned it, knowing that alcohol drunk in a wholesome way > cannot be separated from alcohol drunk in a way that makes people > lose their minds. Well, that's an easy one. Mudita cannot arise when > alcohol is involved. ===== I don't understand "wholesomeness of the way they seemed to be enjoying alcohol". There was certainly pleasant mental feeling, but in the strict Buddhist sense, it is unlikely that it was "wholesome". Nevertheless, seeing people drinking sake can be a condition for mudita to arise (Note: the object of mudita must always be a person, never a scene such as the cherry blossom environment). One can see a person and genuinely hope that their good health continue. The fact the person happens to be performing an akusala action at the time (drinking alcohol) is not relevant to the feeling evoked in your mind. ===== > > R:> As it says in Vism XVII 102, even our own akusala can be a > condition > > for the arising of our own kusala. If this is the case, why should > > the arising of our kusala be dependent on the level of right > > understanding of somebody else in their actions. > > P: Jeff says that mudita should mean freedom from criticizing > others, and since the brahma-viharas are considered immeasurable it > would seem that he's right. But it seems to me that criticism of > others' can be done in a spirit of friendship and not criticizing in > some situations could possibly point at indifference. ===== Let's look at the Suttas. I don't think that the Buddha ever criticized a specific person. However, the Buddha would guide a deluded person by preaching the Dhamma. There is a big difference between criticizing somebody and preaching the Dhamma to guide them. ===== > Conditioned dhammas are arising, and people will do what they will > do, but not in a way that completely excludes intervention from being > helpful. I think if we look at our own lives we can find many cases > where a word of criticism at the right time opened new windows of > understanding. > So while the arising of our kusula is certainly not dependent on > others' right understanding, I do believe others' right > understanding can give our factors a nudge in the right direction. I > think of a log going down a river, veering to one side and being > nudged by a man with a pole in the hope of preventing it from getting > caught up on the shore. The momentum of the log (conditioned) will be > the deciding factor but who knows to what degree a prod from someone > might be able to right the log's course. And it doesn't do any harm > to try unless conceit arises through it, or the wrong view that we > can change people for the better. We can't do that. But we might be > able to give them a nudge that helps them wake up a little and start > doing the work themselves. ===== I agree that associating with wise friends and studying the dhamma can be great influence. ===== > > BTW, Rob, I found some very excellent posts by you in the Useful > Posts in which you used something like flowcharts to explain the > Abhidhamma for beginners. They helped me a lot and I know I'll be > returning to them. Again, I hope I'm not confusing you with someone > else. :) ===== Glad you liked some of my earlier posts. Here are some closing thoughts on mudita to illustrate how mudita works together with the other brahma viharas. Unbounded love guards compassion against turning into partiality, prevents it from making discriminations by selecting and excluding and thus protects it from falling into partiality or aversion against the excluded side. Love imparts to equanimity its selflessness, its boundless nature and even its fervor. For fervor, too, transformed and controlled, is part of perfect equanimity, strengthening its power of keen penetration and wise restraint. Compassion prevents love and sympathetic joy from forgetting that, while both are enjoying or giving temporary and limited happiness, there still exist at that time most dreadful states of suffering in the world. It reminds them that their happiness coexists with measureless misery, perhaps at the next doorstep. It is a reminder to love and sympathetic joy that there is more suffering in the world than they are able to mitigate; that, after the effect of such mitigation has vanished, sorrow and pain are sure to arise anew until suffering is uprooted entirely at the attainment of Nibbana. Compassion does not allow that love and sympathetic joy shut themselves up against the wide world by confining themselves to a narrow sector of it. Compassion prevents love and sympathetic joy from turning into states of self-satisfied complacency within a jealously-guarded petty happiness. Compassion stirs and urges love to widen its sphere; it stirs and urges sympathetic joy to search for fresh nourishment. Thus it helps both of them to grow into truly boundless states. Compassion guards equanimity from falling into a cold indifference and keeps it from indolent or selfish isolation. Until equanimity has reached perfection, compassion urges it to enter again and again the battle of the world, in order to be able to stand the test, by hardening and strengthening itself. Sympathetic joy holds compassion back from becoming overwhelmed by the sight of the world's suffering, from being absorbed by it to the exclusion of everything else. Sympathetic joy relieves the tension of mind, soothes the painful burning of the compassionate heart. It keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding without purpose, from a futile sentimentality that merely weakens and consumes the strength of mind and heart. Sympathetic joy develops compassion into active sympathy. Sympathetic joy gives to equanimity the mild serenity that softens its stern appearance. It is the divine smile on the face of the Enlightened One, a smile that persists in spite of his deep knowledge of the world's suffering, a smile that gives solace and hope, fearlessness and confidence: "Wide open are the doors to deliverance", thus it speaks. Equanimity rooted in insight is the guiding and restraining power for the other three sublime states. It points out to them the direction they have to take and sees to it that this direction is followed. Equanimity guards love and compassion from being dissipated in vain quests and from going astray in the labyrinths of uncontrolled emotion. Equanimity, being a vigilant self-control for the sake of the final goal, does not allow sympathetic joy to rest content with humble results, forgetting the real aims we have to strive for. Metta, Rob M :-) 31840 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mudita and judging others' joy Hi Phil, S: Your posts are very encouraging to us all. --- Philip wrote: > Hello all. > > Have to share what just happened. Every morning, I read a chapter > from the Dhammapada, and this morning, just after posting on mudita, > this is the first verse I saw: "When this world is ever ablaze, why > this laughter, why this jubilation." (146) Of course the Buddha isn't > saying that laughter and jubilation are wrong, but maybe that we can > question them. .... S: Question and see the ignorance and attachment for what they are. Narada transl: ‘What is laughter, what is joy, when the world is ever burning? Shrouded by darkness, would you not seek the light?’ The story behind the verse is about when Visakha visited the Buddha and the women accompanying her became drunk and in their drunken state started dancing and singing before the Buddha with disrespect. He created darkness and they came to their senses. You asked about the origins of the Dhp stories. By tradition, I believed they are ascribed to Buddhaghosa or a contemporary commentator who transcribed and collected them from the Sinhalese manuscripts of the original commentaries. See Nina’s recent post on commentaries and others in U.P. It’s a controversial area and some friends prefer to put aside all commentarial material or even the Dhp verses themselves;-) .... P: >That's the way I take it anyway. (The danger of > reading sutta for me is that I always take whatever I read to confirm > my theories, which is foolish, I know.) .... S: I think we read according to our limited understanding and also the way it is presented in the translation and commentary. I greatly enjoy your anecdotal posts such as the sidewalk one. We had a big debate on this issue in Hong Kong a few years ago - I think it was decided we should all walk on the right. But with large numbers of tourists and locals who don’t like following rules, it was bound for failure and we soon resumed the bumping ways we’re used to. At the end of that post you mentioned that the Buddha taught ‘to doubt everything’ and suggested the solution was to doubt ‘even while yielding’. Usually when people mentioned that the Buddha encouraged ‘doubt’, they are referring to the Kesamutti (Kalama) sutta where we often read ‘it is right to doubt’ or something similar. In fact the meaning as I understand is more along the lines of ‘it is natural to doubt’. In other words, doubt(here kankha and viccikicca) is always akusala (unwholesome). I think Woodward’s (PTS) translation expresses the meaning best: “ ‘When we listen to them, sir, we have doubt and wavering as to which of these worthies is speaking truth and which speaks falsehood’. ‘Yes, Kalamas, you may well doubt, you may well waver. In a doubtful matter, wavering does arise.’ “ Let me know if I was on the wrong track with your comment on doubt. ... P: > BTW, getting back to piano lessons, .... S: I like all RobM’s comments and am delighted he’s also stepped in to help with the Pure Abodes. Please encourage him to stay around;-) The Brahma viharas can arise so quickly and instantly. No need to think a long story about whether the metta or mudita is ‘deserved’ or whether the other person’s mental state is pure or not. Like Rob said, when you look at the person in the park there can be gladness that they are happy or enjoying pleasant experiences. When you see the child applauded or the proud parents or teacher, again one can just be glad for them at that moment. As Rob said, at these times there’s no comparison, no thought of oneself, one is just rejoicing for the other. Sometimes I think we make it too complicated by thinking too much. You mentioned that honour and praise may come without right understanding, but we forget about momentary kamma and its results which can arise at any time. It’s very fair. None of this is to suggest we cannot and should not help with the straightening of views when we have a chance, especially if we feel that any joy or claimed benefits from a practice are misplaced as you kindly suggested in an example of your own. I liked the nudging of logs metaphor. I think you’re raising excellent questions and I’ll look forward to other comments. Again, I think as understanding of namas and rupas and kamma-vipaka grows, it becomes easier to really rejoice in others’ good fortune and to think less of oneself. But no revolutionary changes in accumulations....just the wearing away of the adze handle;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Thx for your good intro (and Christine’s adding of the comy notes) on the La.tukikopama sutta. In truth, aren’t we *all* types of people, changing all the time - one moment cittas with mudita, the next with dosa, then with wise reflection and so on. No need to cling to a ‘fixed image’;-) ================================ 31841 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Larry, You raise a number of good points. As we’ll be coming to these sections very soon and Nina will also be looking at the Pali and Tika, I’m going to just make a couple of brief comments without any checking of sources and leave it ‘til then. .... --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > In Vism. XIV 73 B. ~Nanamoli makes a parenthetical clarification in his > translation to the effect that unproduced rupas are conceptual. That is > to say "matter as delimitation...alteration...and characteristic". In > regard to delimitation or space it would seem necessary that there be an > aggregate of tangible data in order for there to be something delimited. .... S: As we know space (akasa rupa) depends on kalapas of rupas to arise and to ‘delimit’. The definition of derived rupas (upada rupa) was that they depend on the 4 primary rupas, so akasa rupa is not a concept, it has characteristics and depends on other rupas. It’s conditioned in this way, indirectly dependent on the same causes that the kalapas or upas are dependent on. I'm not sure if there's any suggestion in the quote on Nanamoli's part to suggest unproduced rupas are conceptual, but there is a comment along those lines in the previously discussed n68 which I mentioned to BB. .... L: > So the question is, is an apparent aggregate a concept? > > Using a strict interpretation of concept as a word and its meaning, I > would say no. .... S: I’m not sure what an apparent aggregate is. Khandhas (aggregates) refer to realities, but of course we use concepts to discuss. .... L: > I was going to introduce this idea when we get to the characteristics of > the tangible data base in Vism. XIV 76 as regards a touched shape, but > it applies here too. I think the easiest way to think about this is to > analyze the appearance of movement. Movement, shape, and delimitation > are all appearances, whether visual or otherwise, that arise due to the > linking of sequential related arisings. .... S: These, including this sense of delimitation, are all concepts. .... L:>Can we say that these > appearances are actually interpretations designated as nonconceptual > moha and amoha (wrong and right understanding)? If so, I think we could > quite accurately call them formations (sankhara). .... S: I don’t think so. .... L: >As such, even right > understanding is a formation and even wrong understanding is a reality. .... S: Yes. .... L: > Supposing someone, the Buddha maybe, could experience a single tangible > datum, that datum would still be a formation in its singularity. And an > illusion is still a real illusion even though the erroneously understood > object doesn't exist. .... S: Yes. .... L: > If this is agreeable we could say space is between concept and ultimate > reality as an interpretive consciousness formation, aka appearance. .... S: As soon as its ‘interpretive’ it sounds like a concept to me. When the characteristic of space is directly known through the mind-door, however impossible this may sound to us, there’s no interpretation. There is direct understanding .... L: >Does > abhidhamma support this? .... S: As I wrote to B.Bodhi, I read the texts as referring to anipphana rupas including akasa rupa as being paramattha dhammas with characteristics to be known. (Of course the lakkhana rupas (production, continuity, decay and impermanence) are characteristics of other rupas. Hopefully, Nina will add more and correct any errors here. .... L: >How does abhidhamma analyze the appearance of > formations or aggregates? .... S: I’m not quite sure of your question. You’d have to give an example. Usually, as soon as there’s an idea of ‘appearance’ it’s a concept, don’t you think? Formations or aggregates are realities which can be directly experienced. Thx for the good questions. I'm rather out of my depth with them;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 31842 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi All, I’d just like to make a passing comment (because of an interesting note off-list) to say that aakaasa rupa should not be confused with the object of jhana, the sphere of boundless space (aakaasaana~ncayatana) which is purely conceptual as are most objects of jhana. Mahayanists sometimes treat this as an unconditioned dhamma but this view is specifically rejected in the Theravada texts such as the Kathavatthu. For more details on these two kinds of aakaasa (space), see: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/akasa.htm Also, in arupa planes of existence where rupas are not experienced, obviously akasa rupa, which depends on the kalapas of rupas to arise would not be experienced until there were conditions (in another plane) for rupas to be experienced again. Just a few comments, but really I know very little about ‘endless space’ as an object of the immaterial jhana. Others may add more. Metta, Sarah ====== 31843 From: robmoult Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 0:08am Subject: Beings and Their Cittas Hi All, 1.0 Beings in Four Woeful Planes - 37 Cittas ============================================ 1.1 Sense Sphere - 37 Cittas 1.1.1 Unwholesome (12): All (Javana) 1.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 1.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 2.0 Disabled and 2-Rooted Worldlings in Sensuous Worlds - 41 Cittas =================================================================== 2.1 Sense Sphere - 41 Cittas 2.1.1 Unwholesome (12): All (Javana) 2.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 2.1.3 Beautiful (12): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 4 Resultant not associated with wisdom (Bhavanga, Registration) 3.0 3-Rooted Worldlings in Sensuous Worlds - 55 Cittas ====================================================== 3.1 Sense Sphere - 45 Cittas 3.1.1 Unwholesome (12): All (Javana) 3.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 3.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 4 Resultant not associated with wisdom (Bhavanga, Registration) + 4 Resultant associated with wisdom (Bhavanga, Registration) 3.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 3.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 3.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 3.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 3.4 Surpramundane Sphere - 1 Citta 3.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sotapanna Path 4.0 Stream Enterer in Sensuous Worlds - 51 Cittas ================================================= 4.1 Sense Sphere - 40 Cittas 4.1.1 Unwholesome (7): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 2 Dosa-mula (Javana) + 1 Moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 4.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 4.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 4.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 4.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 4.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 4.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 4.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 4.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sakadagami Path 4.4.2 Resultant (1): Sotapanna Fruit 5.0 Once Returner in Sensuous Worlds - 51 Cittas ================================================ 5.1 Sense Sphere - 40 Cittas 5.1.1 Unwholesome (7): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 2 Dosa-mula (Javana) + 1 Moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 5.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 5.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 5.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 5.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 5.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 5.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 5.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 5.4.1 Wholesome (1): Anagami Path 5.4.2 Resultant (1): Sakadagami Fruit 6.0 Non-Returner in Sensuous Worlds - 49 Cittas =============================================== 6.1 Sense Sphere - 38 Cittas 6.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 Moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 6.1.2 Rootless (17): All except "smile producing citta of Arahant" 6.1.3 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 6.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 6.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 6.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 6.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 6.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 6.4.1 Wholesome (1): Arahant Path 6.4.2 Resultant (1): Anagami Fruit 7.0 Arahant in Sensuous Worlds - 44 Cittas ========================================== 7.1 Sense Sphere - 34 Cittas 7.1.1 Rootless (18): All 7.1.2 Beautiful (16): 8 Wholesome (Javana) + 8 Resultant (Bhavanga, Registration) 7.2 Fine Material Sphere - 5 Cittas 7.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 7.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 7.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 7.4 Supramundane - 1 Cittas 7.4.1 Resultant (1): Arahant Fruit 8.0 3-Rooted Worldlings in Fine Material Worlds - 44 Cittas =========================================================== 8.1 Sense Sphere - 29 Cittas 8.1.1 Unwholesome (10): Not including dosa-mula (Javana) 8.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 8.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 8.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 8.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 8.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 8.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 8.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 8.4 Supramundane - 1 Citta 8.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sotapanna Path 9.0 Stream Enterer in Fine Material Worlds - 40 Cittas ====================================================== 9.1 Sense Sphere - 24 Cittas 9.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 9.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 9.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 9.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 9.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 9.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 9.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 9.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 9.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 9.4.1 Wholesome (1): Sakadagami Path 9.4.2 Resultant (1): Sotapanna Fruit 10.0 Once Returner in Fine Material Worlds - 40 Cittas ====================================================== 10.1 Sense Sphere - 24 Cittas 10.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 10.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 10.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 10.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 10.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 10.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 10.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 10.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 10.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 10.4.1 Wholesome (1): Anagami Path 10.4.2 Resultant (1): Sakadagami Fruit 11.0 Non-Returner in Fine Material Worlds - 40 Cittas ===================================================== 11.1 Sense Sphere - 24 Cittas 11.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 11.1.2 Rootless (11): Not including "smile producing citta of Arahant", body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 11.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 11.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 11.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 11.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 11.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 11.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 11.4 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 11.4.1 Wholesome (1): Arahant Path 11.4.2 Resultant (1): Anagami Fruit 12.0 Arahant in Fine Material Worlds - 35 Cittas ================================================ 12.1 Sense Sphere - 20 Cittas 12.1.1 Rootless (12): Not including body consciousness (akusala / kusala), tongue consciousness (akusala / kusala), nose consciousness (akusala / kusala) 12.1.2 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 12.2 Fine Material Sphere - 10 Cittas 12.2.1 Wholesome (5): Wholesome (Javana) 12.2.2 Resultant (5): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 12.3 Immaterial Sphere - 4 Cittas 12.3.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 12.4 Supramundane - 1 Citta 12.4.1 Resultant (1): Arahant Fruit 13.0 3-Rooted Worldlings in Immaterial Worlds - 28 Cittas ========================================================= 13.1 Sense Sphere - 19 Cittas 13.1 Unwholesome (10): Not including dosa-mula (Javana) 13.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 13.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 13.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 13.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 13.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 13.3 Supramundane - 1 Citta 13.3.1 Wholesome (1): Sotapanna Path 14.0 Stream Enterer in Immaterial Sphere - 24 Cittas ==================================================== 14.1 Sense Sphere - 14 Cittas 14.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 14.1.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 14.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 14.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 14.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 14.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 14.3 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 14.3.1 Wholesome (1): Sakadagami Path 14.3.2 Resultant (1): Sotapanna Fruit 15.0 Once Returner in Immaterial Sphere - 24 Cittas =================================================== 15.1 Sense Sphere - 14 Cittas 15.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 15.1.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 15.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 15.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 15.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 15.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 15.3 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 15.3.1 Wholesome (1): Anagami Path 15.3.2 Resultant (1): Sakadagami Fruit 16.0 Non-Returner in Immaterial Sphere - 24 Cittas ================================================== 16.1 Sense Sphere - 14 Cittas 16.1.1 Unwholesome (5): 4 Lobha-mula not associated with wrong view (Javana) + 1 moha-mula with restlessness (Javana) 16.1.2 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 16.1.3 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 16.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 16.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 16.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 16.3 Supramundane - 2 Cittas 16.3.1 Wholesome (1): Arahant Path 16.3.2 Resultant (1): Anagami Fruit 17.0 Arahant in Immaterial Worlds - 18 Cittas ============================================= 17.1 Sense Sphere - 9 Cittas 17.1.1 Rootless (1): Mind Door Adverting only 17.1.2 Beautiful (8): Wholesome (Javana) 17.2 Immaterial Sphere - 8 Cittas 17.2.1 Wholesome (4): Wholesome (Javana) 17.2.2 Resultant (4): Wholesome (Bhavanga) 18.3 Supramundane - 1 Citta 18.3.1 Resultant (1): Arahant Fruit Metta, Rob M :-) 31844 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gradual Training Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - > > Sarah, thank you for writing "Howard, I appreciated your > good-humoured > questioning of Ken O's quote and comments;-)" However, I can't find the > original posts this pertains to .... I haven't kept the copy I was using, but I suppose it was this one: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m26195.html Now I'm rather confused too and have just tried unsuccessfully to find the 'gaps'. I assure you, there was no intention to miss any vital links, quite the contrary. I'll just apologise and leave it there. As I said, it was a good discussion and I merely wished to include a few Pali terms I'd checked and to stress the conditioned nature of these factors arising. It reminds me of comments in the Udana and commentary. I mentioned the Meghiya Udana to Matt yesterday. After going unsuccessfully into the mango grove to meditate and being overwhelmed by kilesa (defilements), the Buddha tells him about the ‘Five things [which]conduce to full maturity’ for those capable of being guided. There are a lot of details in the Udana commentary (Meghiya chapter 221f, starting with the details about the importance of the kalyaa.namitto (the lovely friend). It also gives a lot of detail about the eight values and kinds of talk we’re discussing in Victor’s corner, such as talk on contentment, seclusion and so on. We read: “For talk on the part of one who is himself a doer of same is especially efficacious as regards its implied goal. For instance, he is about to say “This Meghiya, may be looked forward to by the monk who is one with a lovely friend....(that such talk as is concerned with ultra-efacement, suited to opening up the heart,... that is to say, talk on wanting little....talk on morality...talk on knowledge and vision of liberation - talk....will gain without trouble”.....”Will gain at will (nikaamalaabhi)”: will gain as is desired, will gain to his liking, will at all times be one getting to hear and to explore these (types of) talk as he pleases. “Will gain without difficulty (akicchalaabhii): will gain without hardship. “Will gain without trouble (akasiralaabhi): will gain in an extensive manner.” ***** S: In other words, talk with wise friends on the