41000 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 98- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (j) Dear Sarah, and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] > ***** > While we study the different aspects of cetanå we can see that > cetanå is different as it arises with different cittas. Cetanå which > accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta "wills" kusala or akusala > and it is capable of producing vipåka; it is, except in the case of > cetanå which accompanies magga-citta, abhisaòkhåra or kamma formation. > > The cetanås which accompany rúpåvacara citta and > arúpåvacara citta can produce rebirth in higher planes of existence, > in rúpa-brahma planes and arúpa-brahma planes, they are a link > in the Dependant Origination. .....snip.... Azita: Like a little jolt, the above reminded me that cetana is arising and falling NOW as I write this. Most of the time I don't know if its kusala, akusala or even vipaka. LIstening to the India discussions, and this is my interpretation as I don't have the exact words before me, someone stated that while reading the Abhidhamma, and trying to work out what is being read, he remembers that it is 'this present moment' that he is reading about. These are the reminders that I find most uplifting, and then there is clinging for more uplifting moments - subtle lobha, and not not so subtle lobha. I'm attached to the feelings that go along with lobha :-) on and on it goes. these are the musings of a tropical midsummer,no aircon coastal dweller...... may our death moments be kusala Azita 41001 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:16pm Subject: Books in Hotels - Thailand Hello all, I think this is marvellous news! :-) Tried to forward the whole post, but it doesn't seem to have appeared. Apologies for the duplication, if it turns up later. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In DSList@yahoogroups.com, "Amara" wrote: >The Committee on Religion, Art and Culture of the House of >Representatives of Thailand, together with the Vongvanij >Foundation, has published Nina Van Gorkom's book, 'The Buddha's >Path', to be placed in hotels alongside the Bible. 41002 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Hello Htoo, KenH, Azita, all, I wonder if this story is the one you are searching for Htoo - it is part of the Uraga (Snake) Jataka: "The Bodhisattva was a farmer in a former life as mentioned in the Uraga Jataka. Rustic though he was, he practiced mindfulness on death to perfection. He had trained himself to think every now and then "Death can at any moment come to us." This is something on which the majority of us refuse to do any thinking at all. Not only did he make it a habit to think so, but he even saw to it that all members of his household did the same. One day while he was working with his son in the field, the latter was stung by a snake and died on the spot. The father was not one bit perturbed. He just carried the body to the foot of a tree, covered it with a cloak, neither weeping nor lamenting, and resumed his plowing unconcerned. Later he sent word home, through a passer-by, to send up one parcel of food instead of two for the mid-day meal and to come with perfumes and flowers. When the message was received, his wife knew what it meant but she too did not give way to expressions of grief; neither did her daughter nor her daughter-in-law nor the maid-servant. As requested they all went with perfumes and flowers to the field, and a most simple cremation took place, with no one weeping. Sakka the chief of gods came down to earth and proceeding to the place where a body was burning upon a pile of firewood, inquired from those standing around whether they were roasting the flesh of some animal. When they replied, "It is no enemy but our own son." "Then he could not have been a son dear to you," said Sakka. "He was a very dear son," replied the father. "Then," asked Sakka, "why do you not weep?" The father in reply uttered this stanza: "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past. Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Similar questions were asked from the dead son's mother who replied thus: "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go. Even as he came he went, what cause is here for woe? No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "Sisters surely are loving to their brothers. Why do you not weep?" asked Sakka of the dead man's sister. She replied: "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? My kith and kin alas would more unhappy be. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Sakka then asked the dead man's wife why she did not weep. She replied thus: "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." Lastly Sakka asked the maid-servant why she did not weep, especially as she had stated that the master was never cruel to her but was most considerate and kind and treated her like a foster child. This was her reply: "A broken pot of earth, ah, who can piece again? So too, to mourn the dead is nought but labor vain. No friends' lament can touch the ashes of the dead. Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_reflections_on_death.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Ken H, > > I am sorry. Yes. I was confused. Actually I should have noticed the > address kenhowardau. > > The man who died in the story was the son. The father and the son > used to go ploughing in the early morning. The son died of snake > bite. The father knew his son was bitten by a snake. Still he was not > much tremble. > > Normally at the break the father met his wife or his daughter-in- law > and asked for 2-meals. This time the father asked for one-meal. It > was the wife. But she was not reported that her son was dead. But > from the context she knew her son died. The wife of young man also > came to know when her mother-in-law asked her to prepare one-meal > [instead of 2-meals]. > > Christine may know the story. Christine please! > > In the whole story the main theme is 'naka.mpati' 'not trembling'. > Actually they were not arahats. They were not anagams. They must have > some suffering inside of their mind. But not manifested. Because they > stayed with Dhamma. > > This is one of 38 blessings. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 41003 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: What the mind does Friend Ken H., Ken H.: Some jhana practitioners had so much [suppressed] defilement that they were unable to understand the Dhamma even when they heard it directly from the Buddha. I think it is said that some of them are now languishing in the lower realms. James: I question if this is true. Could you quote from the texts where it states this? I believe that the Buddha chose as his first disciples those who had practiced mental cultivation because they were the ones with "little dust in their eyes". Furthermore, I don't believe that many contemporaries of the Buddha really practiced the four jhanas, they just practiced the immaterial attainments. There are differences between the jhanas and the immaterial attainments: Jhanas are accompanied by pleasure (except the fourth jhana which is accompanied by equanimity) while the immaterial attainments are not accompanied by mental feelings; jhanas take the mind itself as the ultimate object while the immaterial attainments take spheres of immaterial existence as the ultimate object; and the Buddha had practiced the immaterial attainments with former teachers prior to enlightenment, and rejected the results as not conducive to liberation, but he had not previously practiced the jhanas except when he was a child and had spontaneously entered the first jhana. Therefore, are you speaking of the four jhanas or the immaterial attainments? And, do you have textual support? Ken H.: I know that, in the Buddha's day and in the centuries after it, some disciples developed jhana as well as vipassana. But in my opinion, no such individuals exist in the human realm today. James: How could you have a basis for this opinion? Do you know the minds and behaviors of every single person on the planet? ;-) Metta, James 41004 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Htoo, KenH, Azita, all, > > I wonder if this story is the one you are searching for Htoo - it > is part of the Uraga (Snake) Jataka: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, Exactly it is. Thanks for your linkage. When I told to Ken H I just left that the old man unnamed. Yes. He was sakka or king of deva realms. In your linkage there are verses of poem. In Myanmar Buddhist monks preach these verse in Pali while other parts of the story are talked in Myanmar words. Because of this tradition most Buddhists in Myanmar who frequent to Dhamma preachings acquire many Pali words through this kind of preaching. I forgot 'Uraga'. Sappo is also a snake. Does 'Uraga' mean 'snake'? With respect, Htoo Naing 41005 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:27am Subject: Re: What the mind does -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear KenH, > > This may or may not be condolences. But fathers are always fathers. > > Once there was a family who one day faced with passing away of a > > member of their family. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Azita, That is fine that you snipped away. Contemplation of death is one of 4 guardian meditations. I will discuss it but see below for my response. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Azita wrote: Azita: I have snipped most of Htoo's post, simply to shorten the message, however I thought it a really good story, Htoo and I hope you won't mind that I cut. [[It is OK-Htoo]] I have a kind of death story. My happy young neice gave me "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" and "Advice on Dying", as Xmas presents. [[interesting-Htoo]] Some of the family members shook their heads and thought we were a bit weird when I showed genuine delight at her gift! Altho I don't agree with a lot of what I'm reading, it has been a condition for me to really think about death. As pointed out in the first book, most people don't want to think about the event most certain to occur in their lives. [[because of craving to live more- Htoo]] It is mostly thought of as a very grim event. I'm not trying to trivialise the enormous death toll that has recently occured due to the tsunami, in these times the totality of the devastation in peoples lives is too great. Yet we know that these things happen and that we can die at any moment. i want to be able to accept death with open arms - given the right conditions :-/ I think that my attitude to death has changed a great deal since my study of Buddhas teachings began. May our death moments be kusala. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Azita, I have been always writing as 'We were born and now are living. As we have been born what is sure is we are dying at some pont'. But people just accept it as a general concept. Let alone death they cannot even bear a single disturbing message or a single event of pain. At the time they perceive it they forget 'death'. There are 4 guardian meditation. 1. Recollection of Buddha's attributes 2. Recollection of Death 3. Compassionate Living 4. Recollection of Breath Some designate metta-brahmavihara as Metta-sati. At least recollection of death calm down trembling as Christine's link mentions. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41006 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Hello Htoo, all, Yes, both sappa and uraga mean serpent (or snake.) "serpent : (m.) sappa; ahi; uraga; bhujaga; bhogî; âsivisa; alagadda" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ How fortunate to regularly hear the Dhamma taught by Bhikkhus well- versed in the Teachings. You have a very good memory, Htoo - I've noticed before that you often recall Dhamma teachings you have heard over the years - I'm sure many of us nowadays don't hear and memorise suttas as much as we should. I think we depend too much on the written word, and rely on computers and search engines to be our memory. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Htoo, KenH, Azita, all, > > > > I wonder if this story is the one you are searching for Htoo - it > > is part of the Uraga (Snake) Jataka: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Christine, > > Exactly it is. Thanks for your linkage. When I told to Ken H I just > left that the old man unnamed. Yes. He was sakka or king of deva > realms. > > In your linkage there are verses of poem. In Myanmar Buddhist monks > preach these verse in Pali while other parts of the story are talked > in Myanmar words. > > Because of this tradition most Buddhists in Myanmar who frequent to > Dhamma preachings acquire many Pali words through this kind of > preaching. > > I forgot 'Uraga'. Sappo is also a snake. Does 'Uraga' mean 'snake'? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 41007 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: Hello Htoo, all, Yes, both sappa and uraga mean serpent (or snake.) "serpent : (m.) sappa; ahi; uraga; bhujaga; bhogî; âsivisa; alagadda" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ How fortunate to regularly hear the Dhamma taught by Bhikkhus well- versed in the Teachings. You have a very good memory, Htoo - I've noticed before that you often recall Dhamma teachings you have heard over the years - I'm sure many of us nowadays don't hear and memorise suttas as much as we should. I think we depend too much on the written word, and rely on computers and search engines to be our memory. metta and peace, Christine >---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, As you would know 'the teachings of The Buddha and arahats' were brought along simply by oral citation for the first three Buddhists Councils. Even though written scripts appear oral citations are still performed. In Myanmar there are Tipitaka examinations. Some bhikkhus passed the examination only with one pitaka or one basket of teachings. That is they know each and every words in that basket. Some passed two pitaka and they are called dvi-pitakadhara. Dhara means 'bearer'. When all three pitakas are digested and they pass the whole examination then they are designated as 'tipitakadhara' or 'bearer of three baskets of teachings'. Venerable Vicitta-saarabhivamsa was tipitakadhara. He acted as the answerer at 6th Buddhists Council in Yangon, Myanmar in the mid 20th centuary. When he was just a novice and studying he went to a town in the mid- land of Burma (Myanmar). At a book shop he took up a book of about 200 pages. As the shop-keeper was a Buddhist who was generous and had great saddha he offered that book free to the novice. Sayadaw-to-be happily bring along that book and he was going back to his monastry. He read the book along way to a river called 'Irreweddy' or 'Eyavati' or 'Ayeyarwati'. Soon after he reached the river bank he threw away the book into the river. The kappiya (lay guardian) was shocked and asked what he did with that book. The novice answered 'I remember everything in that book. So I do not need this book again'. He did that because he was young. That book may benefit other if he kept it. But the guandian was delighted and reported this matter to his teacher. The teacher knew the potentials of this young novice and he was trained under Pali experts one after another. And finally he digested all tipitaka. Even though there are same tipitakadhara at that time this Sayadaw Venerable Vicittasaarabhivamsa is amazing unlike other tipitakadhara. He remember page by page, word by word. When I started to know that there were Tipitakadharas I was just ignorant and not wonder anything. But one day I visited a small village and there I met an old man. He was illiterate. But amazingly he was like a mental book. I may be wrong in some words when I write down my old memories. But that man reproduced the exact copy of what he heard from Sayadaws. I did not say he was tipitakadhara. I am talking the tradition of oral citation. Books, texts, CDs are good. Still there are people who practise such amazing memories. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41008 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread (234) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 3 samapattis or 3 states of reaching of 1.jhana- samapatti or 'being in jhana' or 'staying in jhana' or 'developing jhana', 2.phala-samapatti or 'staying in fruition-consciousness', and 3.nirodha-samapatti or 'reaching the state of cessation', the first 2 have been discussed. After jhana-samapatti and phala-samapatti, there left nirodha- samapatti. Nirodha means 'cessation'. Samapatti is made up of 'sam' and 'aapatti'. Sam means 'very well' 'rightly' 'in the right manner or right order'. Aapatti means 'reaching' 'being in'. Nirodha- samapatti means reaching a state of cessation of nama and rupa. As there is no citta, there is no cetasika. As there is no nama dhamma there is no cittaja rupa or rupa derived from nama dhamma. So in that state what left is kammaja rupa, aharaja rupa and utuja rupa. Kamaja rupa means 'rupa derived from kamma' and aharaja is from nutriment and utuja is from temperature. For nirodha-samapatti the satta concerned has to be an arahat or an anagam (non-returner) and they have to be proficient in all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas. When they consider to go into the state of nirodha-samapatti that consideration is arising of kamavacara mahakusala javana cittas or kamavacara mahakiriya javana cittas thinking to go into nirodha samapatti. This is followed by bhavanaga cittas and then jhana vithi vara arise one after another. That is They enter the 1st rupa jhana, exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 2nd rupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 3rd rupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on ti. Then enter the 4th rupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 1st arupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 2nd arupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. Then enter the 3rd arupa jhana. Exit from it and contemplate on it. After that they consider several different things just before going into the 4th arupa jhana, called n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana. These considerations are 1. when The Buddha wants me may I be able to arise from samapatti. 2. when The Sangha want me may I be able to arise from samapatti. 3. may the avasa or monastry or building or tree in connection with me be free from enemies like fire, animal attack, disasters etc etc. 4. may civara or robes be free from destruction by enemies 5. may parikkhara other essentials for bhikkhu be free from destruction by enemies. After these consideration they enter the 4th arupa jhana or nevasanna- nasannayatana arupa jhana. There arise only 2 moments of 4th arupa jhana citta and after that because of this hugh great powerful appana bhavana there does not arise anything and this happen for the whole 7 days. During that time what happen is just proliferation of kammaja rupa, existing aharaja rupa which will completely cease to arise after 7 days and utuja rupas. They do proliferate. Because of adhitthana the body cannot die at any stage while in nirodha-samapatti. Once a group of naughty girls went to a forest and they made a fire to bushes. Inside was an arahat staying in nirodha-samapatti. The fire did not hurt him at all. But naughty girls gained bad kamma and this kamma gave the result. It was the queen Samavati and her followes who were all died from man-made fire ordered by the king because of divisive speech of hated person of samavati. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41009 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi James, ------------ Ken H: > > Some jhana practitioners had so much [suppressed] defilement that they were unable to understand the Dhamma even when they heard it directly from the Buddha. I think it is said that some of them are now languishing in the lower realms.> > James: > I question if this is true. Could you quote from the texts where it states this? > ---------------------- No I can't, but I think Devadatta and his followers were classic examples. -------------------------- J:> Therefore, are you speaking of the four jhanas or the immaterial attainments? And, do you have textual support? --------------------------- Apart from the explanation you have just given, I am unfamiliar with the distinction between jhanas and immaterial attainments. ----------------- Ken H.: > > I know that, in the Buddha's day and in the centuries after it, some disciples developed jhana as well as vipassana. But in my opinion, no such individuals exist in the human realm today. > > James: How could you have a basis for this opinion? Do you know the minds and behaviors of every single person on the planet? ;-) --------- It is just the opinion I have reached after reading many explanations on DSG (most details of which I have forgotten). Robert K, for one, often posts the details of how the sasana was predicted by the Buddha to decline; I have based my opinions that kind of information. Regards, Ken H 41010 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:18am Subject: Re: What the mind does Friend Ken H., Ken: No I can't, but I think Devadatta and his followers were classic examples. James: Devadatta didn't turn against the Buddha because jhana practice had `supressed' his defilements. Devadatta turned against the Buddha because jhana practice gave him tremendous psychic powers and he grew conceited because of those powers. His followers, fellow monks, followed him because of those powers; they were impressed (because the Buddha refrained from demonstrating such powers). However, the followers of Devadatta were quickly brought back to the sangha after a talk by Sariputta, while Devadatta was asleep. Therefore, I don't believe that this is a sufficient example that jhana practice suppresses the defilements to the extent that one can no longer understand the dhamma. Remember, jhana practice is a part of the Noble Eightfold Path taught by the Buddha; it is Right Concentration. Ken: It is just the opinion I have reached after reading many explanations on DSG (most details of which I have forgotten). Robert K, for one, often posts the details of how the sasana was predicted by the Buddha to decline; I have based my opinions that kind of information. James: Okay, fair enough. There is a decline in the Buddha Sasana, of that I have no doubt. However, what exactly that means to the individual practitioner is up to speculation. Personally, I believe that it means that the potential is still there, but the opportunity is not as prevalent. In other words, people of today could become arahants, but the support system needed, the sangha, is in a terrible state of disrepair. After all, the Buddha said that the WHOLE of the holy life is noble friends-if the only truly noble friends that one can find are spread out all over the globe, and they have to meet over the Internet, then the holy life is going to suffer. Personally, about two years ago I went to Thailand to become a monk and was sorely disappointed by the standard of behavior I found in the sangha. I left the temple after only three days. So, if you want to say that the means are decreasing, I would agree; however, if you want to say that the ability is decreasing, I would not agree. Metta, James 41011 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:02am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi, Kel (and all interested members) - > Kel: Well if it's highest samma ditthi then yes it only applies > to magga-nana. Most people divide it into: sila, samadhi and > panna. It only requires understanding of kammic relations to > practice sila. Then temporary suppression of defilements is > samadhi. ONLY then will you have enough strength > to achieve lasting panna. In message # 40999 (Re: What the mind does) you touched upon several advanced things (samatha, vipassana, jhana, nana, sotapatti, ...). A thought arose while I was reading your discussion with Ken H. : Kelvin's knowledge is very good and he is also able to concisely describe difficult subjects without difficulty. You said to Ken H. that "sotapatti isn't that farfetched". Sotapatti is the focus of AN X.92 [Vera Sutta]: "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html Here the "five forms of fear & animosity are stilled" by the five precepts. The four sotapatti factors are defined as the unwavering faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, plus the virtues that are "appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." And, the term "rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method" is a right understanding of the Dependent Origination (paticcasamuppada). Well, now I have few questions that have been on my mind for quite a while; being unable to answer them to my own satisfaction, I hope you probably can kindly answer them for me. (I) Do the 6 conditions stated in this Vera Sutta guarantee the sotapatti- magga-nana? If they do, then does it mean that with these conditions it is not necessary for the "disciple of the noble ones" to practice samatha to attain jhanas, or vipassana to attain high levels of nana like the Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations (sankharupekkha- nana)? (II) You told Ken H. , "There's no arguing Buddha touted 4th jhana mind as the BEST mind to meditate with". Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st jhana? Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th jhana? Thank you for your help. Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > 41012 From: mnease Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books in Hotels - Thailand Hi Chris, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christine Forsyth" To: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 10:16 PM Subject: [dsg] Books in Hotels - Thailand > >The Committee on Religion, Art and Culture of the House of > >Representatives of Thailand, together with the Vongvanij > >Foundation, has published Nina Van Gorkom's book, 'The Buddha's > >Path', to be placed in hotels alongside the Bible. Wonderful news indeed--saadhu and anumodanaa, Nina. mike 41013 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Htoo, Would it be correct to say that a non-aryan can attain to the 4th arupa jhana? When an arahant or anagami attains to the 4th arupa jhana that jhana is called nirodha samapatti? Once entered, is this samapatti all bhavanga or all jhana citta? Is the difference between these two kinds of arupa jhana just the magical protections? Larry 41014 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Tep, > Here the "five forms of fear & animosity are stilled" by the five precepts. > The four sotapatti factors are defined as the unwavering faith in the > Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, plus the virtues that > are "appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, > unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, > leading to concentration." Basically no longer capable of acts that will lead one to lower realms. Since the doubt (cetasika) has been destroyed, they'll never lose faith either. In fact, they can be reborn into arupa lokas and become arahat there. For normal beings, arupa is considered one of the bad realms because you cannot become a sotapanna there. Once you're a sotapanna it doesn't matter anymore. > And, the term "rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the > noble method" is a right understanding of the Dependent > Origination (paticcasamuppada). I just take this to mean understanding the cause and effect relation and successfully changing the reaction pattern of the mind. I don't take it literally as seeing each link in the chain of D.O. which is kinda hard since they're interwined in more than one way. > (I) Do the 6 conditions stated in this Vera Sutta guarantee the sotapatti- > magga-nana? If they do, then does it mean that with these conditions it > is not necessary for the "disciple of the noble ones" to practice > samatha to attain jhanas, or vipassana to attain high levels of nana like > the Knowledge of Equanimity about Formationes (sankharupekkha- > nana)? Every sotapanna has perfect sila but not everyone with seemingly perfect sila is a sotapanna. So it's only an implication one way and not a "if and only if". Sila in this context covers all three actions: bodily, verbally and mentally. First two are relatively easy, but someone can easily be really angry behind a fake smile. There are four types of people and most likely we're 3rd type. First are who attain enlightenment by just hearing the Dhamma. Second can attain by having the Dhamma expanded and explained more throughly. Third can achieve by culivating through bhavana. Fourth, highest achievable stage is sankharupekkha for various reasons. One is they have more lofy goals that requires enlightenment in future lives. Another is they're born with two- root conditions (without amoha) only, so 4 out of 8 mahakusala citta vipakas. So they cannot get enlightenment this life but can accumulate paramis for it in the very next life. If one is 1st or 2nd type then there's no need for systematic cultivation. Basically if someone's willpower is strong enough to have perfect sila including mental actions, they are able to destroy the defilements without much effort. Clearly they're just more talented than normal humans`when it comes to mental prowess. The 3rd types use bhavana to develop the power of the mind. Once it's powerful enough, it can destroy the defilements once and for all. One shouldn't forget all ten paramis have to be full and bhavana is merely the means because we're too weak. > Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st jhana? > Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th jhana? Quick answer: all and none. You can look at how the expansion of 89 type of consciousness to get 121. First, subtract 8 lokattura (4 magga/4 phala) from 89 to get 81. Then multiply 8 lokattura with 5 jhana types to get 40. Add the 40 to 81 and end up with 121. So 4 magga-nanas can only be achieved with 1 out of 5 jhanas accompanying it. However, it doesn't have to be absorption and just quality of the 1st jhana is enough. It's also the reason you can include arupa into the 5th jhana because the type is the same, it's only the object that is different. But the question arises as to which jhana is easier as basis for which magga? Of course if you can achieve 4th jhana first, it is for the best. The danger is one can waste a lifetime trying to achieve that without ever getting to vipassana and that would be a tragedy. For a normal human, the mind is so cluttered that the type of calmness required may not be achievable right away. For a sakagami, there's a lot less clutter and so it's easier to achieve higher jhanas. So practicing vipassana first is advisable to lessen the clutter because it doesn't take much training. We know when we are angry, annoyed or rather easy to discern akusala cittas. Using these as devices, we can cleanse our mind using vipassana. This is pretty much how satipatthana method work. You develop samadhi and panna in locked step using sati, the mind naturally gets cleaner and so able to focus more leading to further calmness and cleansing. Even noticing our attachments to DSG and our desires/reactions to people is a huge step up. It's a way to come out of ignorance and give ourselves a chance to change. That's why a successful practice should result in a changed behavior not because we're doing so well but because our minds were so bad before. - kel 41015 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Larry, > Would it be correct to say that a non-aryan can attain to the 4th arupa > jhana? When an arahant or anagami attains to the 4th arupa jhana that > jhana is called nirodha samapatti? Kel: I don't think so. nirodha-samapatti is above 4th arupa jhana and uses 4th arupa jhana as basis for attainment. Because the mind (citta) and mind-related matter complete stops while absorbed in niroda-samapatti. Anagami/arahats can be absorbed in 4th arupa jhana like everyone else with consecutive jhana cittas. The two vithis have the same beginning but different once it reaches absorption. >Once entered, is this samapatti all bhavanga or all jhana citta? Kel: as i said above, no citta at all. Just kamma, utu and ahara based matter arises during nirodha. The person for all intent and purposes appear dead. - kel 41016 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Tep Questions to Kel: 1.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st jhana? 2.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th jhana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel's Answers. Quick answer: all and none. You can look at how the expansion of 89 type of consciousness to get 121. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and Kel, Very good discussion and superb answer. Yes, the answer to each question is all of 4 stages. And again the answer to each question is none of 4 stages. As long as there is no hindrance javana cittas are the same in terms of concentration or tranquility. That is 'not achieving any jhanas but just with upacara samadhi' and n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana are the same. The only difference is number of jhana factors and state of absorption. There are 8 lokuttara cittas. And there are 40 lokuttara cittas. All lokuttara cittas take nibbana as their object and no other objects are taken as object. Be careful that lineage is not the same between jhana cittas and lokuttara cittas. 40 lokuttara cittas are lokuttara cittas. They are not rupavacara cittas nor are they arupavacara cittas. They are genuine lokuttara cittas. 8 lokuttara cittas are also lokuttara cittas. They are not jhana cittas. They are not rupavacara cittas and nor are they arupavacara cittas. However all lokuttara cittas 8 lokuttara cittas or 40 lokuttara cittas are absorptive consciousness. They all are absorbed into nibbana. Or nibbana absorbs them. Or they absorb nibbana. What matter in the whole path leading to nibbana including pre-NEP path is panna or wisdom. Without panna or wisdom any of magga nana will not be achieved. That is why bare attention does not work (I may respond this at dhammasukha site later). With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41017 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Dear Larry, Thanks for your questions. Kel has already answered everything. I will also answer your questions. But questions are a bit long and could you please use simple structure of questions next time? With respect, Htoo Naing PS: Please see below for discussion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, 1.Would it be correct to say that a non-aryan can attain to the 4th arupa jhana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is correct. Non-ariyans can attain 4th arupa jhana. Example is the 2nd teacher of Bodhisatta. If this 4th arupa jhana works as marana- asanna-javana citta then satta or being concerned will be reborn with 4th arupajhana vipaka citta called n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupavipaka citta and they will reborn in that arupa realm. If this happen they will not attain any magga citta there in arupa bhumi. Because sotapatti magga citta can never arise in that realm and when puthujanas are reborn in that realm there is no way to arise panna or magga nana. But they will live there for 80000 kappas. At the end of 8000 kappas they will be reborn in one of 7 kama bhumis that is 6 deva realms and 1 human realm with tihetuka patisandhi citta and if they do not find educator like The Buddha or arahats they are still entitled to be reborn in 4 woeful planes. These are later possible life. While they are in arupa brahma bhumi as they are living for 80000 kappas they will miss many Buddhas. Arupa brahma bhumis are good for sotapatti phala puggala or higher beings. Because they can continue their practice there without any physical dukkha like human beings and devas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: 2.When an arahant or anagami attains to the 4th arupa jhana that jhana is called nirodha samapatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Definitely not. If they practise 4th arupa jhana then it will be 4th arupa jhana-samapatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: 3.Once entered, is this samapatti all bhavanga or all jhana citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually at that time it is hard to call it samapatti. But the whole matter is called nirodha-samapatti. That is 1. contemplation that he is going to enter nirodha-samapatti 2. 1st jhana 3. 2nd jhana 4. 3rd jhana 5. 4th jhana 6. 1st arupa jhana 7. 2nd arupa jhana 8. 3rd arupa jhana 9. contemplation and adhitthana 10.4th arupa jhana ( just 2 moments) 11.complete cessation of citta-sankhara, citta, cetasikas, cittaja rupas. 12.arising of arahatta phala javana citta The real thing is stage 11. It is nirodha-samapatti. That is reaching the state of total and complete cessation. But the word 'samapatti' is not suitable when there is nothing. So the answer is 1.No. Not all bhavanaga cittas 2.No. Not all jhana cittas. There is no citta. No cetasika. No cittaja rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: 4.Is the difference between these two kinds of arupa jhana just the magical protections? Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nirodha-samapatti is more than magical protection. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41018 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:11pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Kel, We are practising two radically different Dhammas. Mine is all about understanding the present moment, while yours is all about doing something to bring about enlightenment. -------------- Kel: > Most people divide it into: sila, samadhi and panna. It only requires understanding of kammic relations to practice sila. -------------- Is that strictly correct? Kusala consciousness requires the absence of wrong view and ignorance, but it does not require the presence of right view. --------------- Kel: > Then temporary suppression of defilements is samadhi. -------------- As far as I am aware, samadhi is a universal cetasika, so I am not familiar with your use of the term. ------------------ Kel: > ONLY then will you have enough strength to achieve lasting panna. ----------------- Again, I am not familiar with "lasting panna." As a cetasika, panna lasts less than one billionth of a second. I have a feeling you have explained 'lasting panna' in recent posts, but I have fallen behind with my reading. In an earlier post, to which I have not finished responding, you wrote: --------------------- > Yes there can be one or two kusala cittas amidst strong stream of akusala. That's not the practice leading to enlightenment however. It just merely reduces the strength and result of the akusala cittas. I'm sure you know the part in Abhidhamma where it talks about supporting, interference and destructive kammas of one rebirth- citta. This is precisely how one tries to destroy the akusala that has arisen, still 3 stages to go: prevent new akusala from arising, let kusala arise and keep the arisen kusala going. What I was referring to is to have kusala javanas even with continuous akusala vipaka cittas in consecutive vithis. > ---------------------- This (consecutive vithis of kusala cittas) must be the bit I haven't read properly in recent posts. But whatever it is, I doubt it will radically change my perspective. The Buddha's teaching is to understand a presently arisen paramattha dhamma. It can be something simple like visible object or it can be something complicated like a citta that has arisen as part of a consecutive stream of kusala vithis. In either case, the universe is just these present conditioned paramattha dhammas - there is no self who can control anything. ------------------ Kel: > This does not equal samatha bhavana and other factors can lead. If you read the exposition of the indriyas, any of the 5 can lead. ------------------- Then I should read it (wherever it is to be found), but I'm not sure when I can get around to it. ------------------------------- Kel: > One can accumulate enough samadhi by doing "pure" vipassana but still need the same quality of first jhana (as ppl said in many threads). Doesn't matter how you walk there, you still gotta get there. ------------------------------- Well, my understanding is that right understanding comes first - right concentration arises automatically with right understanding. This applies whether we are talking about samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana. And you don't "do" vipassana - vipassana is a citta that is conditioned to arise when the true Dhamma has been properly heard, explained and considered. ---------------- Kel: > There are some traditions that practice jhanas before they work toward anagami-magga-nana. The clamness required of the lower two isn't as high. It's a big leap from sakaagami to anagami. ------------- I am curious to know whether some traditions currently claim that ariyans are quite plentiful amongst their membership. Are you saying there are people in the world today who have attained the level of sakadagami and are working towards anagamiship? ---------------- Kel: No, it is not unique. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are all equally good. ---------------- I think direct realisation of anicca is [theoretically] attainable outside a Buddha's sasana. I'm not sure about dukkha but I know only a Buddha can teach anatta. --------------------------- Kel: > Unless you treat them to be the same which they aren't. The level of understanding of dukkha is what separates the 4 magga-nanas. --------------------------- Here, you might be using the term 'dukkha' to refer to 'all conditioned dhammas.' Otherwise, I don't know what you could mean by 'the level of understanding of dukkha is what separates the 4 magga-nanas.' -------------------- <. . .> Kel: Again they CAN be forerunners as a way to truly experience and see anatta clearly. Panna isn't not the only vehicle. --------------------- This brings us back to the beginning: I say right understanding comes first; you say it doesn't have to. --------------------- Kel: > The whole point of vipassana is to investigate into the true nature precisely because we lack the right understanding of it at experiential level. --------------------- This sounds like something I would say, but you seem to give it a different meaning. ----------- KH: > > This leads to a kind of effort that is > conditioned by something other than panna. It is the way according > to some teachings, but it is not the way according to the Dhamma.> > Kel: > Lofty statement and I don't see where anyone can really critize other teachings without having practiced them to the fullest. They all converge at some point and people do things differently. ----------- I wonder what you mean by that. Surely, you are not saying that all paths eventually lead to Nibbana! (?) For the purposes of Dhamma study, we should realise that other teachings can offer only eternalism or annihilationism (wrong views in any of their 62 forms). And we don't have to practise them to understand that. But, outside of Dhamma study, I agree we have no business criticising other teachings. Ken H 41019 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (235) Dear Dhamma Friends, [This is a bit advanced and many will leave it alone or delete it from their mail box. But any query, questions, comment, addition, further explanation are all welcome] There are no 'we'. There are no 'I'. There are no 'you'. There are just citta, cetasikas, and rupas and there is nibbana. Leaving nibbana, there will be citta, cetasikas and rupas. At a glance they are just patisandhi cittas doing linking function. That patisandhi citta has its associated cetasikas and okkantikkhana kamaja rupa. Okkanti means 'when patisandi citta arises'. Khana means 'moment'. Okkantikkhana means 'the moment when patisandhi citta arises'. Okkantikkhana rupa means 'rupas that arise at the exact time when the patisandhi citta arises'. This is nama and rupa at the time of rebirth or patisandhi. That patisandhi citta is vinnana. This vinnana has to arise because of kamma-sankhara done at the time of marana-asanna-javana cittas arising in the immediate past life. That kamma-sankharas had to be done because of avijja. At the exact time of patisandhi there is no salayatana or no 6 ayatana. That is no cakkhu-ppasada, no sota-ppasada, no ghana- ppasada, no jivha-ppasada. This is especially true for human beings and animals. But at patisandhi kala or time there has already been nama-rupa. When fully develop there are salayatana if conditions are right for givcen satta or being. At another glance 'citta, cetasika, rupa' may well be bhavanga citta. This bhavanga citta does have its associated cetasikas. If satta concerned is one of sattas in pancavokara bhumis or beings with 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates this bhavana citta has to home hadaya-vatthu which is a rupa. So there are still a citta, a rupa and cetasikas of that citta. There are no 'we' and no 'you' at all. At another glance, 'citta, cetasika, rupa' may be at cuti kala or at the time of death. Cuti means 'move from the present life' or 'stop living'. Cuti citta does have associated cetasikas and rupa. At another glance if 'citta, cetasika, rupa' are not at those stated above (patisandhi kala, bhavanga kala, cuti kala), then 'citta, cetasika, rupa' will be in a process mentioned below. 1. pancadvara vithi vara depending on cakkhu vatthu 2. pancadvara vithi vara depending on sota vatthu 3. pancadvara vithi vara depending on ghana vatthu 4. pancadvara vithi vara depending on jivha vatthu 5. pancadvara vithi vara depending on kaya vatthu 6. manodvara vithi vara taking kama object (kama javana vara) 7. manodvara vithi vara taking jhana object (jhana javana vara) 8. manodvara vithi vara taking vipassana object and nibbana (magga javana vara) 9. manodvara vithi vara taking jhana object with specific intention (abhinna javana vara) 10. manodvara vithi vara reaching jhanas (jhana-samapatti) 11. manodvara vithi vara reaching phala (phala-samapatti) 12. manodvara vithi vara reaching nibbana(nirodha-samapatti) There is a special vithi vara. It is marana-asanna-javana vithi vara. This will be discussed in the coming post. In the previous post nirodha-samappti has been explained. Here are vithi varas when nirodha-samapatti is being intended. 1. contemplation that nirodha-samapatti is going to take. BBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB (kama javana vara of mahakusala cittas) 2. enter 1st rupa jhana. BBBB..BBBPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ J here is Jhana and not simple Javana. That is it is Jhana Javana. Here Jhana is 1st rupa jhana.JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB. 3. exit from the 1st rupa jhana and contemplate on past jhana factors and cittas as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJBBB...BBBBBMJJJJJJJTT(here J are kamavacara mahakusala Javana cittas)BB [paccavakkhana vithi vara] 4. enter the 2nd rupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 5. exit from 2nd rupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] 6. enter the 3rd rupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 7. exit from the 3rd rupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca,dukkha,anatta. JJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccakkhana javana vithi vara] 8. enter 4th rupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 9. exit from the 4th rupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] 10. enter 1st arupa jhana or enter akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 11. exit from akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] 12. enter vinnananca-ayatana arupa jhana or 2nd arupa jhana. BBBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 13. exit from it and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta. JJJJJJJJJJJJJBB..BBMJJJJJJJTT[paccakkhana javana vithi vara] 14.enter akincanna-ayatana arupa jhana or 3rd arupa jhana. BBB..BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB 15. exit from it and contemplate on it as anicca, dukkha, anatta 16. do adhitthana. BBBBB..BBMJJJJJJJTTBBBB ..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBBBBBB BBBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB...BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBB..BBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB [kamavacara mahakusala kama javana vithi vara] 17. enter 4th arupa jhana or nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana. BBBBBB..BBBMPUAGNN_____________ApBBBBBBB 18. nirodha-samapatti is reached [_______]. N here means 'nevasanna- nasanna-ayatana jhana javana citta and it arises twice and then nothing arise there after. [_________] <-- this is attainment of nirodha-samapatti and it is called sa-upadisesa nibbana. 19. __________ApBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB Ap here is Anagami phala javana citta or Arahatta phala javana citta. And after arising once there follow many bhavanga cittas. 20. contemplate on what has experienced. BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB..BBBMJJJJJJJTTBBBBBB [paccavakkhana javana vithi vara] May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41020 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:18pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi James, ----------------------- J: > Devadatta didn't turn against the Buddha because jhana practice had `supressed' his defilements. ------------------------ I'd like to make it clear that I haven't suggested that as the reason. Jhana is a good practice, not a bad practice. Suppressing the hindrances is not a bad thing to do, but it doesn't eradicate the hindrances and so it doesn't offer an escape from samsara. My understanding is that Devadatta performed tremendous kusala in perfecting the jhanas. But he also had a history of tremendous evil. His temporarily suppressed, accumulated evil tendencies prevented him from understanding the Dhamma. That might be an inaccurate understanding, but it's the one I was putting forward. ---------------------- J: > Devadatta turned against the Buddha because jhana practice gave him tremendous psychic powers and he grew conceited because of those powers. ---------------------- Why was that? Why didn't all jhana masters grow conceited? Wasn't it because they had varying levels of [temporarily suppressed] kilesa? -------------------------------- J: > His followers, fellow monks, followed him because of those powers; they were impressed (because the Buddha refrained from demonstrating such powers). However, the followers of Devadatta were quickly brought back to the sangha after a talk by Sariputta, while Devadatta was asleep. -------------------------------- Oh yes, I forgot that - thank you for reminding me. I still have the impression that many jhana practitioners were, like Devadatta, unable to practice vipassana, but I can't point to any references. --------------------------------------------- J: > Therefore, I don't believe that this is a sufficient example that jhana practice suppresses the defilements to the extent that one can no longer understand the dhamma. Remember, jhana practice is a part of the Noble Eightfold Path taught by the Buddha; it is Right Concentration. --------------------------------------------- Yes, jhana practice can be a part of Dhamma practice, but I haven't suggested otherwise. (I am not accusing you of intentionally misconstruing my words, but you obviously haven't read them carefully.) ----------- James: > Okay, fair enough. There is a decline in the Buddha Sasana, of that I have no doubt. However, what exactly that means to the individual practitioner is up to speculation. ----------- I think the texts explain what it means to the individual practitioner, and I am only interested in the texts. My own speculation is of no significance. Regards, Ken H 41021 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Hi E(ric), Kel and Htoo - I like your brief answer a lot. Yes, it sure makes sense that the 4th step of the 1st tetrad results in calming the kaya-sankhara. Yes, piti is present in both the 1st tetrad and the early part of the 2nd tetrad, but the piti in the second tetrad (vedananupassana) does not connect with the breathing. And it is true that in the 3rd tetrad (cittanupassana ) the focus is on the mind, but how do you explain that the 'delight' here is not the same as 'citta sankhara' (which is supposed to calm down until disappearing by the 4th step of the 2nd tetrad)? Kel says that there are several levels of piti, including the piti-sambojjhanga, but it is not completely clear to me. Can you elaborate further on the things called 'delight' and 'piti' when they are mind-based, and when they are not ? Thank you for joining us. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > 2) Abhip-pamodayam cittam = extremely delighted or "satisfying the > mind". This is fine because satisfaction correlates to delight. But > it is not > clear to me why piti still has not been calmed down after the 2nd > tetrad. > > Coming from the 1st to the 2nd tetrad, the > piti there is associated with a calm body. > That is, it is dependent on calming the > breath in the 4th step. The delight here > is mind centered. That is, the delight is > no longer dependent on the breath but upon > mind itself. The frame of reference has > shifted from body and vedana to mind. > > PEACE > > E 41022 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:25pm Subject: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, Your link is good but too long to finish. So I decided to answer now. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammasukha@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Hi, all - I have thought up 7 questions for testing our Dhamma knowledge. If you can correctly answer just 4 of them, you may say with confidence that your knowledge of the Dhamma is sufficient as a firm foundation for more progress along the Path. Let's work together for the best answers to all the 7 questions! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There seem to be the right answers already. But I will answer you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 1. I. Why is bare attention, or `mental noting' during meditation, not contributing to insight knowledge development? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 1: Because 'just attention' does not involve any wisdom. Panna has to be build up. It is said that drop after drop finally makes a full container with water. No perfection means 'no insight development'. For perfection deep understanding is essential. For deep understanding we have to study steadfastly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep' question 2: II. How do we practice mindfulness so that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 2: Mindfulness is one thing and cleansing away of distracting thoughts is another thing even though mindfulness plays a major role. How do we practise? To be free from distracting thought, calming exercises have toi be done. These exercises are to be learned with wisdom. This wisdom is basic and it sets up right view. Without right view one cannot be free of distracting thoughts. So how do we practise--> stage 1. study to understand the different methods of calming processes and exercises and how they work. stage 2. after collections of the necessary wisdom for understanding of how calming exercises work then start practising by filling up necessary moral conduct or siila. stage 3. with a good thought to bring up mindfulness to cleanse away all distracting thoughts one has to start practising according to the methods that help cleansing these distracting thoughts. stage 4. taking experience from practical matters then try to refine more and more [a good teaching may well be needed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 3: III. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) considered undesirable in vipassana meditation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 3: Because they would put on straying and depart from reality where vipassana works. So they are undesirable. So do not follow them. Just let go. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 4: IV. How would clear insight and vision (of body and mind, nama-rupa) be realized by contemplating thought formations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 4: Thought formations arise and fall away. Each arises at each object. SOmetimes objects are rupa and sometimes nama. Thoughts are nama and objects are sometimes rupa. Nama and rupa are not mixed but they are separate matter. Thinker is nama and thinkee are sometimes rupa. Thinker and thinkee are not a single one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep'w question 5: V. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo' answer 5: Because they work together. When the engine power of right side of a tank is higher than the left the tank will deviate to the left and vice versa. So balance is needed to go in the guided way. Discern everything and this will bring concentration and balance will arise. If start with concentration then as there lack wisdom there will be imbalance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 6: VI. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 6: Before training is taken, study first what dhammas are. This dhamma does this and that dhamma does that. Example is studying of 'pleasant feelings and its implications'. Without studying one will not fully understand what 'pleasant feeling is and what its implications are. When they have been studied then its potential effect for destruction will be understood. She always comes to me. As soon as she comes in I am already there beside her without ever knowing when I move to her. But when I know that she kicks me out is that when she leaves me with destruction. When destructions are not assumed as destructions then I will always welcome her even though she destroys my properties every time she visits me. Who is she? What are destructions? Why have I been beside her as soon as she comes in? She is Miss Tanha. Destructions are 'strayed thought destroying clear wholesome mind to be clouded'. Why I have been beside her as soon as she comes in is that I have not still realized that she is a destructive person. If you do not want destructions, just avoid her. How does she come? To know this is 'to practise meditation'. I am training my mind. Now I know when she comes. But still I follow her for a few steps before I can stop to follow her and disregard her. Now I reach high grade that sound or voice which might invite strayed thoughts is discarded as soon as it is noted. I have to note it. But I note it with disgust. A sweet food, be mindful she is coming with it. And stop it. But just taste it and do not follow long. Sweet smell do the same. Touch? A bit difficult but one can train it. Touch is controled with siila and reinforced with mental practice of meditation. Sight. This is simple. Just close the eyes. In one session of my meditation I perceive a strong sense which otherwise invite very attractive object. But as soon as it appears I just do not follow it as this heppened before and I do not want to be destroyed . So just try to dispassionate what we think good things and just ignore them after perceiving. This will add equanimity later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question 7: VII. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 7: This is invented word. But it is still understandable. Direct seeing means 'not indirect seeing'. What is indirect seeing? It is understanding of things when someone explain us. But direct seeing comes directly from the outset when object arises. As soon as the object arises and cittas arise, things have to be understood are already understood intuitively without any thinking. How to develop? This is a long way and a single answer will not work. 1.study dhammas one after another and collect them as if 1000,000 litres lake will full with water when drop after drop is collected. How to develop? Develop paramis or perfections. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Refference: Reading the Mind by Upasika Kee Nanayon > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/kee/readmind.html#disc > Regards, > Tep ======= 41023 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Kel and Htoo, Thanks for clarifying the difference between the 4th arupa jhana and nirodha samapatti. One slightly unrelated question, when nibbana is the object of a magga citta is that nibbana the cessation of specific latent tendencies? What I mean is, does the aryan see "aha! nothing desirable in sense objects", or "aha! no basis for conceit (comparing)", for example? Is that what is meant by nibbana as object of path consciousness? Or is nibbana as object of path consciousness just a nothing? If nothing, how is that different from the hypothetical situation of consciousness arising without an object? Larry 41024 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Dear Larry, Very very interesting question. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Hi Kel and Htoo, Thanks for clarifying the difference between the 4th arupa jhana and nirodha samapatti. One slightly unrelated question, when nibbana is the object of a magga citta is that nibbana the cessation of specific latent tendencies? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. This is not. Example when sotapatti magga citta arises nibbana serves as an object. From the viewer or from the side of sotapatti magga citta there eradicate some latent dendencies and not all. Only arahatta magga can eradicate latent tendencies without any remanents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: What I mean is, does the aryan see "aha! nothing desirable in sense objects", ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. What he sees is nibbana. ''aha! nothing desirable in sense objects'' is done by earlier mahakusala cittas. Not magga citta. Earlier mahakusala cittas may well be parikamma, upacara, anuloma etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: or "aha! no basis for conceit (comparing)", for example? Is that what is meant by nibbana as object of path consciousness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No nibbana is complete bliss and free of heat of anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: Or is nibbana as object of path consciousness just a nothing? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Nibbana is something. It is not nothing. Nothingness is the object of 3rd arupa jhana citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry continued: If nothing, how is that different from the hypothetical situation of consciousness arising without an object? Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Have told above. Nibbana is something. There is no citta without an object. Even the 3rd arupa jhana citta has to have an object. That nothingness is not nothing. But the pannatti which has the name 'nothingness' 'the idea of nothing' or 'natthibho pannatta'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41025 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi Tep, If there were only one answer this would be a very boring group. So here are some alternate answers to your questions. 1. Why is bare attention, or `mental noting´ during meditation, not contributing to insight knowledge development? L: Bare attention does contribute to insight knowledge development by cutting through papanca (mental proliferation). 2. How do we practice mindfulness so that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? L: By being mindful of thoughts. 3. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) considered undesirable in vipassana meditation? L: Insight is seeing that nothing is desirable or undesirable. 4. How would clear insight and vision (of body and mind, nama-rupa) be realized by contemplating thought formations? L: Seeing that thought formations are not self is clear insight and vision. 5. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? L: Discernment arises from concentration like a sprout from the earth. 6. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? L: Mindfulness of pleasant feelings. 7. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? L: Direct seeing is seeing that there is nothing there in what is there. It is developed by looking. Larry 41026 From: Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Htoo, Thanks for answering my questions on nbbana. I will sleep on them. Larry 41027 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Friend Ken H., Ken H: Yes, jhana practice can be a part of Dhamma practice, but I haven't suggested otherwise. (I am not accusing you of intentionally misconstruing my words, but you obviously haven't read them carefully.) James: I am trying my best to follow what you are saying and directly respond, but it seems to me that your position is rather slippery. On the one hand you state that jhana practice can be a part of dhamma practice, and then on the other hand you state that jhana practice can result in a suppression and accumulation of the defilements. So, which is it? Please understand, when I state that jhana practice is important, I do so within the context of the Noble Eightfold Path. There is no reason to worry about suppressing and accumulating defilements with jhana practice when one also follows the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. It seems to me that your concerns are unfounded; that you are looking at this issue in a narrow way rather than seeing the big picture-and the big picture is the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 41028 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:43am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Ken, I don't think I'll respond further on this particular thread. It's clear we are on different wavelengths. Hopefully as we read and respond to other posts we can converge. - Kel 41029 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Text Vis. : But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. N: The Tiika adds that saññaa can be of four planes of consciousness (catubhuumika). Thus, depending on the citta it accompanies, it can be of the sensuous plane, of the planes of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana, and it can also be supramundane, lokuttara. The Tiika adds that its characteristic is the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc. Text Vis.: Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. N: Saññaa marks the object so that it can be recognized later on. Just as carpenters make a sign on timber so that they can recognize it later on. They see that Œthis is the same¹ (tadeva.m ti). The Tiika states that making a mark or label is the condition for perceiving the object again, for remembering or recognizing it. Every saññaa should be interpreted in a similar way. Text Vis: It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant. (Ud. 68-69). N: The Vis. refers to a story in the Udana, about blind people who Œsee¹ an elephant when touching different parts of it. Each of them interpretes differently what an elephant is. The person who touches the head thinks that the elephant is like a pot, and so on. Text Vis: Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men. N: The Tiika adds to the proximate cause, Œan object in whatever way that appears¹, that this is without thinking or consideration (avikappa). Thus, saññaa performs its task of remembering or recognition without thinking about about the object that appears. Just as the fauns that see scarecrows as men. The Tiika states that saññaa accompanied by paññaa follows, complies with understanding, that it interpretes with paññaa (tasmaa abhinivesakaarikaa), and that it does not apprehend wrongly. Saññaa can be accompanied by samaadhi, and the Tiika states that this is not for a short time (acira.t.thaana). When samatha is developed, saññaa has to perform its function for a long time. It has to mark and remember again and again the meditation subject, such as a colour kasina. In this way the meditator can acquire a mental image (nimitta) of it. He does not have to look at it again in order to remember it. When he is more advanced and calm has grown he can attain absorption with this subject. But it takes a long time, it is not easy. The Tiika states that saññaa which accompanies desire, wrong view, conceit and other defilements follows (anuvattika) or complies with those defilements. In that case saññaa is akusala and remembers wrongly. Vis. text: This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the perception aggregate. **** Conclusion: We read in the Dialogues of the Buddha II, Mahaa-parinibbaana sutta, D II, 79, that the Buddha spoke about seven conditons for welfare: the realization of right remembrance of impermanence (aniccaa-saññaa), remembrance of non-self (anattaa-saññaa), of the absence of corruption, of the danger of wrong thoughts, of the necessity of getting rid of them, of purity of heart, of nibbaana. The Commentary to this sutta explains that aniccaa-sañña is saññaa arisen with awareness or recollection of aniccaa (aniccaanupassanaaya). The same is true of anattaa-saññaa and so on. Thus this refers to vipassanaa. Because of wrong view one has wrong remembrance of self, attaa-saññaa, or one takes realities for permanent, and that is niccaa-saññaa. Saññaa accompanies each citta, and when it accompanies wrong view it is conditionedm by wrong view. One may think of persons or things, there is the association of different impressions into a Œwhole¹; one takes persons and things for permanent and Œself¹. Seeing or hearing seem to be lasting. One fails to understand that there are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Saññaa Œfollows¹ wrong view. Whereas, when saññaa accompanies right understanding, it is conditioned by paññaa and thus, it is completely different. It follows or complies with paññaa. Right understanding knows that seeing and hearing arise because of their appropriate conditions and that they have to fall away. It knows that dhammas appear through the six doors, one at a time, and that they do not last. When right understanding is developed there will be, instead of wrong remembrance, right remembrance: anattaa-saññaa and aniccaa-saññaa. **** Nina. 41030 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, I like your straight, direct questions. I add only a little to Larry's answers, selecting just a few points. I like his answers. I snipped to make the post shorter. op 16-01-2005 06:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 1. Why is bare attention, or `mental noting´ during meditation, not > contributing to insight knowledge development? > > L: Bare attention does contribute to insight knowledge development by > cutting through papanca (mental proliferation). N: Meditation teachers use these words, but we have to be clear what they mean by it. Mental noting could be done with an idea of self who does so. Whereas, paññaa which discerns different characteristics without thinking should be emphasized. ... > 3. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) > considered undesirable in vipassana meditation? > > L: Insight is seeing that nothing is desirable or undesirable. N: Thinking is real and it can be object of awareness, see Mindfulness of Citta among the four Applications. ...... > 5. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with > discernment and how to do it? > > L: Discernment arises from concentration like a sprout from the earth. N: Right understanding and right concentration of the eightfold Path have as object nama and rupa. When there is right understanding, all other factors are balanced because of it. Nobody has to try to balance, it happens because of conditions. > 6. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? > > L: Mindfulness of pleasant feelings. N: And mindfulness of craving. > 7. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? > > L: Direct seeing is seeing that there is nothing there in what is there. > It is developed by looking. N: The word looking has to be clarified. When we are not careless there can be awareness of the characteristic that appears. When I say characteristic I do not mean the three general characteristics, because we are beginners. We learn that visible object is not sound, that they have different characteristics. Nama and rupa have different characteristics. There has to be awareness over and over again so that this can be discerned. We need many reminders by listening and discussing again and again. Just now Lodewijk said that he begins to see the value of discussions and listening. While in India he was wondering what the use was of talking again and again about seeing, but now he understands. He said that is rather late. But not too late. It made me think of Jon saying that people may have noticed a lot of aversion while in India. But afterwards one sees that the pilgrimage was useful, what one heard had to sink in. Nina. 41031 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: sense-door process, to Larry Hi Larry, I printed out your post about sense-door process arising in the mind-door, how can earth get into the mind, for discussion with Lodewijk. I threw away the original by accident. Lodewijk thinks that it would help to pay more attention to Phassa. This will be soon in Vis. He agrees that it is difficult to know how a sense-door process works. I think that we cannot know all about it, it is complex. The Buddha knew all details. But we can learn just enough about it with the purpose to become detached. You remarked that colour etc. are mental qualities because we can experience the same thing in different ways due to changes in the sense organs. Of course, a sense organ is never the same, it is impermanent, falling away very rapidly. Also a sense object like colour is never the same, it falls away and is replaced. So are all the sense cognitions. Thus, colour, sound, etc. are rupas, and they change all the time. We should not have pictorial ideas that the earth must come into the mind. Hardness can be experienced through the bodysense when it impinges on the bodysense. It is experienced by the citta which is body-consciousness. Citta can experience everything: rupa, nama, concepts, nibbana. Rupa can be experienced by citta arising in a sense-door process and after that by citta arising in a mind-door process. Nama, concepts and nibbana are known through the mind-door. Only insight can solve all doubts. It can begin: colour is one dhamma, sound is another one. They have different conditions for their arising. When colour associates with the eyesense there is a condition for seeing. We can verify this in daily life. When someone is blind there is no seeing. Colour must appear through the eyes, not through the ears. Also this can be verified. We do not have to think of the names sense-door and mind-door. At the first stage of insight knowledge it will be known directly that these doorways are different. When we hear the term doorway we should not think of a gateway. Doorway is the means through which citta experiences an object. Nina. 41032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, op 12-01-2005 03:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Dear Nina - > > It has been less than two weeks since I posted the message( dated > 12/31/04) which is now replied by your mail # 40900 (dated 1/11/05). > But, thinking about how little time you can squeeze out from the busy > schedule to answer it, I am contented. > T: This is not the first time that I have thought about the problem of > balancing the five indriyas and how to condition the other > bodhipakkhiya dhammas to arise together for the very moment of > enlightenment. Could you please elaborate more on how these 37 > dhammas may be developed together, rather than group by group first > and then summon them to arise together in a single moment? Importantly, how should the following sutta passage be understood? N: Let us go to the sutta at first. > "For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on > their drawbacks -- the five clinging-aggregates head toward future > diminution. N: remaining focused on their drawbacks, this is a free translation of observing the peril. I would rather begin at the beginning of this sutta. The sutta speaks first about ignorance of whatever appears through the six doors: not knowing eye... visible object...seeing...feelings... is attached to them. That is the explanation of d.O.: ignorance conditions craving. The Co states: when one does not know means: not knowing with vipassana. Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up (vu.t.thaana) to magga. Sutta transl by ATI:The craving that makes for further becoming -- > accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- is > abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are > abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. > His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is > sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. N: PTS has: happiness of body and happiness of mind. The Co explains that sukha of body means: sukha experienced through the doors of the five senses. And mental sukha: experienced through the mind-door. Sutta: "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right > view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any > mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right > concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were > already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble > eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their > development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the > five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to > the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities > occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight. N: The Co explains about the pair of calm and insight: although at the attainment of jhana (samaapatti) and at the moment of vipassana they are separate, arising at different moments, at the moment of ariyamagga they are together. Thus, at the moment of lokuttara citta they are together. When we just read the translation above it would seem that concentration is a foremost factor for vipassana. But there is more to it, the matter is more complex. As to knowledge, vijjaa and freedom, vimutti, the Co explains that this refers to wisdom of the arahatta magga and that freedom is phalavimutti, the freedom of the fruition of the arahatta. **** As to the balancing of the indriyas, there is a great deal of material. Let us collect different suttas. Also as to the 37 factors, we can make a study of Kindred Sayings, Mahavagga, the secion on the Limbs of Wisdom. I would suggest that we do this little by little. So much material cannot be described in one post. Nina. 41033 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:43am Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard, Phil and All Got a bit behind, not helped by the fact that I accidentally erased all the posts to me I had set aside for replying to, so if you or anyone would care to bring any to my attention (off-list) I'll be grateful. If I remember correctly, Phil and I were discussing the case of a someone who has heard the teachings and who understands about kusala and akusala but who continues to have a lot of akusala thinking in his/her life (sound familiar? ;)). We were saying that this is no doubt attributable to the strongly accumulated innate tendency (anusaya) for akusala thinking that we all have. Now in my view it would not be appropriate, in such a case, to see the development of insight as a matter of `having less (akusala) thinking', or to think that having less thinking will mean more awareness. Such thinking is likely itself to be more akusala thinking (for example, prompted by aversion to the presently occurring `akusala thinking', or perhaps by a mistaken idea as to the conditions for the arising of awareness). For that person as for anyone else, the development of insight is a matter of awareness of the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. This awareness may, as is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta, arise at any time and take any object. Thus the conditions for the arising of awareness do not include *first* having less akusala so that the awareness can arise; awareness may arise while akusala thinking is occurring, and its object may be the akusala thinking itself (or not; the object may as likely be the seeing consciousness or visible object that is occurring at the same time, it matters not). You have suggested that the teaching on Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path is relevant here. Regarding the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as a whole, it is my understanding that these refer to moments of insight development consciousness. This means that they are not describing moments of kusala of a lesser degree than insight development (if that were the case it would make no difference whether or not the teachings had been heard and understood), nor are they describing a means of getting to/causing the arising of moments of insight development (in that case there would be eight separate paths, not a single eightfold path). Specifically in the case of right effort, this as I see it describes the function of the mental factor of effort at a moment of insight development. Note that the description you have quoted begins: "There is the case where" items [i] to [iv] occur …, and finishes with the words: "This, monks, is called right effort.". This I believe is to be read as saying, "If items [i] to [iv] obtain then that is right effort". In each of the 4 instances described it is said that the monk "generates desire, endeavours, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent". Now these expressions are of course all references to kusala, and it seems to me they cannot be references to conventional instances of generating desire, etc. since that would contemplate, for example in the case of generating desire for the arising of unarisen kusala, or or the non-continuance of already arisen akusala, some moments of non-kusala (i.e., akusala) mind- states before the kusala mind-state could arise. As I see it, these expressions describe how right effort `works': right effort is the wholesome mental factor that generates desire for the non-arising of unwholesome states not yet arisen, etc. A person in whom right effort arises can be said in conventional speech to be a person who generates desire etc. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Phil) - ... > > Yes. Of course, the danger lies in the akusala nature of the thinking > > rather than thinking itself. But again, we need to resist the > > inclination to strive for 'having less (akusala) thinking' in the belief > > that this is the path taught by the Buddha. > > > =========================== > Well, as to what the Buddha taught in this regard, there is the > following: > > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not > > yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > > qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > > qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, > > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, > > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities > > that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > > >> -- SN XLV.8 41034 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Hi, Herman Thanks for sharing these thoughts, and for your extensive comments. Some further thoughts of my own are interspersed ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ... > The householders life is essentially a vote for attachment to the > meaningless, and a rejection of the real. The householders life is > defined in terms of having, not being. And having is defined in > terms of attachment. It sounds like you give the householder no chance at all, Herman ;- )). Yet in the suttas there is frequent mention of lay-followers and of their potential for enlightenment. And among the numerous enlightened lay followers are some who outshine the monks, including in the teaching of dhamma. ... > H > I could not write down a single thought that I have ever had > that wasn't meaningless, except for the thought that they were all > meaningless. Whatever is your experience, it is bound to be the same for everyone. But it would be a mistake I believe to think that the cure for the affliction of a high degree of meaningless thoughts is silence and/or a contemplative life, as you seem to advocate. The underlying problem here is surely a deeply-ingrained tendency (anusaya) to meaningless thinking, and that stays with us wherever we go unless and until overcome by developed insight. Lifestyle changes are not a long-term solution for this kind of illness. ... > > On many occasions those listening to the discourse became > > enlightened then and there or a short time later. > === > > H> Out of interest, did those lay folk who "got it" return to their > householders life, and carry on managing their superannuation funds > (preparing for the future based on the past) as normal? Others have replied to this part of your post already, so you will know by now that in fact some who attained the lower 3 stages of enlightenment did continue their life as before with no outward change (while they were radically changed inwardly, this would not be apparent to other non-enlightened beings). "Getting it" is a condition for giving up the attachment to the lifestyle but not necessarily giving up the lifestyle itself. ... > If the time for relinquishment and release is not now, it will never > be! You mention relinquishment and release of everything that is clung to as though it was just a matter of making a choice to that effect. Unfortunately, because of our accumulated ignorance and wrong view of things (dhammas), there cannot be release from clinging until that ignorance and wrong view have been eradicated by highly developed insight. And that's not a matter of simply deciding or resolving to do something (wishful thinking, I'm afraid). > If intellectual understanding is something held dear, it will be > a cause for great loss and grief. Not contentious, as far as I'm concerned ;-)). ... > H > What you say is technically correct. Of course it is *possible* > that this very moment ripens as path development, regardless of > lifestyle or current situation. I'm glad you agree that development of the path at this moment is possible. Of course, it must be. The next question then is, what are the conditions that support that development of the path (regardless of lifestyle or current situation)? This is the question we need to consider and pursue. Any line of reasoning that takes us away from this inquiry is likely to be wrong view asserting itself in its usual subtle, crafty way. > But is it *probable*? If there are 10 seconds a day of insight and > 23 hours 59 minutes and 50 seconds of involvement in meaningless > concepts, which do you think is being learnt, nurtured, developed, > reinforced, is it insight into reality with a consequent dissolving > of attachments, or is it the preference for illusion and attachment > to it? You seem to be saying that although development of the path while pursuing our present lifestyle is possible, the chances of it bringing any positive result are minimal, so why bother in the first place. I'm afraid I don't follow this line of thinking; wouldn't a little be better than none? In any event, and fortunately for us, it's clear from the suttas that a mere finger-snap of awareness is of inestimable value, so 10 seconds a day would certainly be worth having ;-)). One should not underestimate the power of (true) kusala, or overlook the fact that much of the kilesa occurring in a day is not of a strength that will bring result in the form of vipaka but simply adds to the accumulated tendency for that particular disposition. > I believe that a person who lives in the midst of and maintains > family and friends, possessions and status in the world, and > believes they can all-the-while be completely detached from this is > setting themselves up for an inevitable fall. Well yes, but a belief in the possibility of `all-the-while' detachment would have the same consequence for anyone, monk or layperson. That is not what the development of insight is about or the likes of you or me. The only question we need to consider, as I see it, is whether there can be the development of insight by a layperson and, if so, then how. Anything else (such as the perceived advantage of living a different lifestyle than our present one) is a distraction from the task in hand. My thoughts on things ;-)) Jon 41035 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:48am Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Howard You have commented a number of times on the importance of the choice of terminology, so I am interested to understand your choices here ;- )) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ... > ====================== > It's just ordinary English, Jon, not special Dhammic terminology. To > not be self-existent is to be dependent. Everything that arises does so *in > dependence* on conditions, making them not SELF-existent. There are many aspects of dhammas explained in the texts to help us come to see dhammas as they truly are. For example, dhammas as conditioned (sankata), as not-self (anatta), as impermanent (anicca), as not I, me or mine, etc. These particular aspects were selected by the Buddha for a reason, mainly I think because they help counter particular innate views to the contrary. So I wonder why you choose to select `non-self existent', which as far as I know is not a textual expression, to the exclusion of the aspects already given in the texts. Is it because, as you see it, we are inclined to take dhammas as `self-existent' (whatever that means)? What material difference do you see between this expression and `conditioned'? By "the entire > experiential edifice" I mean all that we experience. No big deal here. I'm not clear on what you mean by "all that we experience", or in what sense you see that as being an "edifice" (I would be inclined to use `edifice' to describe the thinking about what has been experienced, as that is mind-created/constructed). Jon 41036 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon (and Phil and all) - In a message dated 1/16/05 8:43:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard, Phil and All > > Got a bit behind, not helped by the fact that I accidentally erased > all the posts to me I had set aside for replying to, so if you or > anyone would care to bring any to my attention (off-list) I'll be > grateful. > > If I remember correctly, Phil and I were discussing the case of a > someone who has heard the teachings and who understands about kusala > and akusala but who continues to have a lot of akusala thinking in > his/her life (sound familiar? ;)). We were saying that this is no > doubt attributable to the strongly accumulated innate tendency > (anusaya) for akusala thinking that we all have. > > Now in my view it would not be appropriate, in such a case, to see > the development of insight as a matter of `having less (akusala) > thinking', or to think that having less thinking will mean more > awareness. Such thinking is likely itself to be more akusala > thinking (for example, prompted by aversion to the presently > occurring `akusala thinking', or perhaps by a mistaken idea as to > the conditions for the arising of awareness). > > For that person as for anyone else, the development of insight is a > matter of awareness of the true nature of a presently arising > dhamma. This awareness may, as is made clear in the Satipatthana > Sutta, arise at any time and take any object. Thus the conditions > for the arising of awareness do not include *first* having less > akusala so that the awareness can arise; awareness may arise while > akusala thinking is occurring, and its object may be the akusala > thinking itself (or not; the object may as likely be the seeing > consciousness or visible object that is occurring at the same time, > it matters not). > > You have suggested that the teaching on Right Effort of the Noble > Eightfold Path is relevant here. Regarding the factors of the Noble > Eightfold Path as a whole, it is my understanding that these refer > to moments of insight development consciousness. This means that > they are not describing moments of kusala of a lesser degree than > insight development (if that were the case it would make no > difference whether or not the teachings had been heard and > understood), nor are they describing a means of getting to/causing > the arising of moments of insight development (in that case there > would be eight separate paths, not a single eightfold path). > > Specifically in the case of right effort, this as I see it describes > the function of the mental factor of effort at a moment of insight > development. > > Note that the description you have quoted begins: > "There is the case where" items [i] to [iv] occur …, > and finishes with the words: > "This, monks, is called right effort.". > This I believe is to be read as saying, "If items [i] to [iv] obtain > then that is right effort". > > In each of the 4 instances described it is said that the > monk "generates desire, endeavours, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent". Now these expressions are of course all > references to kusala, and it seems to me they cannot be references > to conventional instances of generating desire, etc. since that > would contemplate, for example in the case of generating desire for > the arising of unarisen kusala, or or the non-continuance of already > arisen akusala, some moments of non-kusala (i.e., akusala) mind- > states before the kusala mind-state could arise. > > As I see it, these expressions describe how right effort `works': > right effort is the wholesome mental factor that generates desire > for the non-arising of unwholesome states not yet arisen, etc. A > person in whom right effort arises can be said in conventional > speech to be a person who generates desire etc. > > Jon ============================= With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I think are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: (II, i, 5) (II, ii, 9) (III, 32) (III, 45) (IV, 12) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41037 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/16/05 9:50:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > You have commented a number of times on the importance of the choice > of terminology, so I am interested to understand your choices here ;- > )) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > >====================== > > It's just ordinary English, Jon, not special Dhammic > terminology. To > >not be self-existent is to be dependent. Everything that arises > does so *in > >dependence* on conditions, making them not SELF-existent. > > There are many aspects of dhammas explained in the texts to help us > come to see dhammas as they truly are. For example, dhammas as > conditioned (sankata), as not-self (anatta), as impermanent > (anicca), as not I, me or mine, etc. These particular aspects were > selected by the Buddha for a reason, mainly I think because they > help counter particular innate views to the contrary. > > So I wonder why you choose to select `non-self existent', which as > far as I know is not a textual expression, to the exclusion of the > aspects already given in the texts. Is it because, as you see it, > we are inclined to take dhammas as `self-existent' (whatever that > means)? What material difference do you see between this expression > and `conditioned'? > ------------------------------------ Howard: They mean the same except for emphasis. By saying "not self-existent", I'm drawing out the significance, as I see it, of being conditioned. I think it is important to do so, to see the connection between sankhata and anatta. ------------------------------------- > > By "the entire > >experiential edifice" I mean all that we experience. No big deal > here. > > I'm not clear on what you mean by "all that we experience", or in > what sense you see that as being an "edifice" (I would be inclined > to use `edifice' to describe the thinking about what has been > experienced, as that is mind-created/constructed). > ------------------------------------ Howard: This is no big deal at all, Jon. You can just as well forget my having formulated it that way. ------------------------------------ > > Jon > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41038 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) Hi Htoo, I'm still having doubts about nibbana. Is nibbana the cessation of something in particular or is nibbana something in itself? Maybe we could say both in the sense that nibbana is like space. You said nibbana is not nothing because the concept of nothing is the object of the 3rd arupa jhana, so you will probably say nibbana is also not space because the concept of space is the object of the 1st arupa jhana. But I think I want to say nibbana is both, nothing and space. Nirodha samapatti is the cessation of nama; that simply means no nama. Cessation without residue is the cessation of nama and rupa; to me, that simply means not anything, aka nothing. If nibbana is something other than nothing or space then the cessation of something is not nibbana because the cessation of something is nothing. I agree that consciousness of nibbana is not consciousness without an object because that would be an uncaused consciousness and therefore not impermanent. But it is reasonable to say nibbana is uncaused and not impermanent in a sense similar to space being uncaused and not impermanent. If that is the case, how does consciousness perceive space or nothing without a reference point? And how does the perception of an unreferenced space (nibbana?)eradicate particular defilements (depending on the stage of enlightenment)? I ask these questions in reference to my question of whether a magga citta has more than nibbana as object. I'm having a hard time seeing that cessation is not cessation OF something. Larry 41039 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread (236) Dear Dhamma Friends, Marana-asanna-javana cittas are consciousness that arise near dying. Marana means 'death'. Asanna means 'frequently arising'. Javana means 'swift' 'impulsion'. Near dying there arise many different objects. The nearer the death the frequenter these objects. Among those objects one becomes the most frequent one. Because that cittas taking that object are going to produce vipaka cittas in the next life as patisandhi citta, bhavanaga cittas, and cuti citta. Marana-asanna-javana cittas may be akusala javana citatas, or mahakusala javana cittas or rupakusala cittas or arupa kusala cittas. Depending on these which arise at near death there arise kamma or kamma is created to be reborn in the next life. Unlike other javana cittas, marana-asanna-javana cittas when in its last javana vithi vara takes only 5 javana cittas. This happen because the rupa that cittas have to depend on is very weak because of near dying. BBBBBBBBBB...BBBPVSpSnVJJJJJC|Patisandhi of next life in case of pancadvara vithi vara. B = bhavanga citta P = pancadvaravajjana citta Sp= sampaticchana citta Sn= santirana citta V = votthappana citta J = marana-asanna-javana cittas C = cuti citta | = death and end of this life. If it is kamavacara manodvara vithi vara then BBBB..BBBMJJJJJC|Patisandhi If jhana cittas [rupa or arupa] BBB..BBBMPUAGJC|PAtisandhi citta There are only 5 javana cittas in all cases. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41040 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:50am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Pilgrimage India 2 a. Chapter 2 The Latent Tendencies. Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to life. Wholesome qualities, such as generosity and loving kindness are accumulated and can therefore condition the arising again of kusala citta with generosity and loving kindness. Unwholesome qualities are also accumulated and can therefore condition the arising again of akusala citta. The latent tendencies, anusayas, are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated and these are classified as a group of seven defilements. They condition the arising of many kinds of akusala cittas. They are the following: sense-desire (kåma-råga), aversion (paìigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå). It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their strength. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise together with akusala citta, but they condition the arising of akusala citta. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour, they are powerful. We are like sick people, because the latent tendencies can condition the arising of akusala citta at any time when there are the appropriate conditions. Only by the magga-citta, path-consciousness, arising when enlightenment is attained, the latent tendencies can be fully eradicated. Latent tendencies are accumulated in each citta, from birth to death. They are accumulated even in kusala citta. **** Nina 41041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi Howard, I would like to see the suttas, but I have trouble with different annotations in different editions. It is propably ATI and how can I trace it? Or could you perhaps give links? Thank you, Nina. op 16-01-2005 17:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to > prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of > selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I > think > are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: > > (II, i, 5) > (II, ii, 9) > (III, 32) > (III, 45) > (IV, 12) 41042 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Hi Nina, I have several questions on this subject. First, is a sign a concept? If yes, does that mean sanna cetasika is the source of concepts? Does sanna cetasika perceive, or put together, several dhammas into a whole or is the "making whole" a characteristic of sankhara cetasikas? The tika says, "It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant." I take this to mean sanna (without panna) takes one characteristic of a whole and makes that characteristic a sign of the whole. Also, when a color is a mental image (nimitta) is the color nama or rupa? Larry 41043 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (234) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I'm still having doubts about nibbana. Is nibbana the cessation of > something in particular or is nibbana something in itself? Maybe we > could say both in the sense that nibbana is like space. You said > nibbana is not nothing because the concept of nothing is the object > of the 3rd arupa jhana, so you will probably say nibbana is also not > space because the concept of space is the object of the 1st arupa > jhana. But I think I want to say nibbana is both, nothing and space. > Nirodha samapatti is the cessation of nama; that simply means no > nama. Cessation without residue is the cessation of nama and rupa; to > me, that simply means not anything, aka nothing. If nibbana is > something other than nothing or space then the cessation of something > is not nibbana because the cessation of something is nothing. > > I agree that consciousness of nibbana is not consciousness without an > object because that would be an uncaused consciousness and therefore > not impermanent. But it is reasonable to say nibbana is uncaused and > not impermanent in a sense similar to space being uncaused and not > impermanent. If that is the case, how does consciousness perceive > space or nothing without a reference point? And how does the > perception of an unreferenced space (nibbana?)eradicate particular > defilements (depending on the stage of enlightenment)? I ask these > questions in reference to my question of whether a magga citta has > more than nibbana as object. I'm having a hard time seeing that > cessation is not cessation OF something. > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LARRY THE WISE So hard is the questions No word is enough in, For that hard thing Call marked that team. Nibbana above all Adhitthana serves shore, Chandha drags panna Mamsa stuffed samsara, Amsa all lapse what left is That text seving as a map. HTOO NAING 16-01-05 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, You posted hard questions. I remember that there are things that should not access. They are 1. The Buddha's affairs 2. Jhana affairs 3. Magga affairs 4. Phala affairs 5. Nibbana affairs The Buddha did preach how to become a Sammasambuddha by showing His example. The Buddha did teach jhanas. The Buddha did teach magga, phala and nibbana. We are to follow what The Buddha taught. We are not to ponder with our limited worldly logic. When there are right conditions and all perfections have been fulfiled, there is no reason that magga nana cannot arise. When it arises what does it do. Magga citta does many thing. 1. penetrate suffering 2. eradicate craving 3. facing cessation 4. developing path As you said space are space. But regarding space there are many things to talk about. The object of 1st arupa jhana citta is boundless space. But it is not the space that we know. It is a separate thing. Again the object of 3rd arupa jhana is nothingness. It is nothingness. But it is not nothing. It is something. That something is nothingness or 'natthibho pannatta' or 'natthi-bhavo pannatta'. I said nibbana is not nothing and nibbana is something. If nibbana is nothing that means nibbana does not exist. If nibbana is something that means nibbana is a reality. As it exists magga cittas can take it as their object. Nibbana is not space. Nibbana is not nothing. Nibbana is something. Cessation is also true to be said as nibbana. But nibbana is not [space and nothing]. Poem: Your questions are so hard that no explanatory words will suffice to understand and absorb in. For that hard questions, you should call for team already marked as experts in Dhamma. Nibbana always excel all worldly things and it is always above worldly things. If you want it and do adhitthana, you will one day reach the shore of nibbana island. Chandha or wish is so powerful and if you do wish to attain nibbana then that chandha will drag all other dhamma as it is adhipati dhamma and so panna or wisdom will also be dragged along with it. We have passed long samsara and in each life mamsa or 'flesh' or all our bodies which bring suffering stuff the whole samsara and we are still being stuffed with suffering.[quote bhara sutta] Amsa or day lapses one after another and we are dying each day and each moment. Nothing left. But we are still thinking that there are we and to overcome the suffering what really left is text or The Buddha teachings. We are just to follow according to the teachings. Not to think in our own way with our own logic. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41044 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Nina, Larry and Htoo - I truly enjoyed reading your 'solution' contributions to the 'Dhamma Test'. I would like to do 'mental noting' of a few things that I have learned from your answers. 1. Larry disagrees with the notion that 'bare attention' is inadequate for insight development. Nina seems to say that bare attention may possibly mean "pannaa which discerns different characteristics without thinking". 2. Larry says that insight means equanimity in the sense of desire- neutrality. Nina mentions that thinking (mental formation) can be the object of vipassana, which implies that it can be "desirable" (i.e. contributing to panna). Htoo observes that one should let go thinking during meditation because it is not the reality for vipassana purpose. 3. Both Larry and Nina do not see why, during a meditation, concentration has to be in a good balance with discernment. Htoo does. 4. Larry sees that (only) mindfulness of pleasant feelings can clear away craving, but Nina thinks mindfulness of both pleasant feelings and craving can. Htoo suggests that contemplating dispassionate is the key. 5. Larry says direct seeing is seeing emptiness (in rupa and nama) and to be developed by "looking". Nina clarifies the term looking for nama and rupa whose characteristics are discerned after there is awareness "over and over". Htoo says direct seeing is the intuitive understanding of objects and cittas as soon as they arise. I truly appreciate your insights and different styles in answer the Dhamma questions. Now I would like to present some excerpts from the article "Reading the Mind" that I think fits rather nicely as "my answers" to the 7 questions. I hope you see the wisdom of the author (Upasika Kee Nanayon) who was a famous Thai vipassana teacher back in the 60's. I. Why is bare attention or `mental noting' not enough for insight knowledge development? "Mindfulness on its own won't be able to give rise to any real knowledge. At best, it can give you only a little protection against the effects of sensory contact. If you don't make a focused contemplation, the mind won't be able to give rise to any knowledge within itself at all "Letting go of thoughts concocted by defilements is virtue, and we must train ourself to get rid of such thoughts. Thinking and pondering on dhammas in order to understand them, and to displace bad thoughts from the mind, are useful. However, even good thoughts do not support concentration; the opposite, bare attention, is conductive to calmness, but it does not support discernment II How do we practice mindfulness such that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? "If there's anything you have to think about, keep your thoughts on the themes of inconstancy, stress, and not-self. You have to keep the mind thinking and labeling solely in reference to these sorts of themes, for if your thinking and labeling are right, you'll come to see things rightly. So even if there's thinking going on in the mind, simply watch it, simply let it go, and its cycling will slow down. Fewer and fewer thought-formations will occur. Even if the mind doesn't stop completely, it will form fewer and fewer thoughts. You'll be able to stop to watch, stop to know more and more. And this way, you'll come to see the tricks and deceits of thought-formation, mental labels, pleasure and pain, and so on. III. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta-sankhara) considered undesirable? "Sensations, thoughts, labels for pleasure and pain and so forth, are all natural phenomena that change as soon as they're sensed -- and they're very refined. If you view them as being about this or that matter, you won't be able to know them for what they are. The more intricate the meanings you give them, the more lost you become -- lost in the whorls of the cycle of rebirth. "The cycle of rebirth and the processes of thought-formation are one and the same thing. As a result, we whirl around and around, lost in many, many levels of thought-formation, not just one. The knowledge that would read the heart can't break through to know, for it whirls around and around in these very same thought-formations, giving them meanings in terms of this or that, and then latching onto them. If it labels them as good, it latches onto them as good. If it labels them as bad, it latches onto them as bad. This is why the mind stays entirely in the whorls of the cycle of rebirth, the cycle of thought-formation. IV. How would clear insight and vision (of body and mind, nama-rupa) be realized by contemplating thought formations? "But if the mind keeps its balance or stops to watch and know within itself, it can come to realize these things for what they are. When it realizes them, it can let them go automatically without being attached to anything. This is the knowledge that comes with true mindfulness and discernment: It knows and lets go. It doesn't cling. No matter what appears -- good or bad, pleasure or pain -- when the mind knows, it doesn't cling. When it doesn't cling, there's no stress or suffering. "So you have to stop and watch, stop and know clearly by focusing down -- focusing down on the consciousness in charge. That way your knowledge will become skillful. As for sensory contacts -- sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and that sort of thing -- it isn't interested, because it's intent on looking into consciousness pure and simple, to see what arises in there and how it generates issues. V. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? "This is the end goal of samatha-vipassana practice, i.e. ultimates realities are experienced in the true sense. "Ultimately, you'll see that there's nothing at all -- just the arising and disbanding occurring every moment in emptiness. If there's no attachment, there are no issues. There's simply the natural phenomenon of arising and disbanding. "But because we don't see things simply as natural phenomena, we see them as being true and latch onto them as our self, good, bad, and all sorts of other complicated things. This keeps us spinning around without knowing how to find a way out, what to let go of -- we don't know. When we don't know, we're like a person who wanders into a jungle and doesn't know the way out, doesn't know what to do... "Actually what we have to let go of lies right smack in front of us: where the mind fashions things and gives them meanings so that it doesn't know the characteristics of arising and disbanding, pure and simple. If you can simply keep watching and knowing, without any need for meanings, thoughts, imaginings -- simply watching the process of these things in and of itself -- there won't be any issues. There's just the phenomenon of the present: arising, persisting, disbanding, arising, persisting, disbanding... There's no special trick to this, but you have to stop and watch, stop and know within yourself every moment. Don't let your awareness stream away from awareness to outside preoccupations. Gather it in so it can know itself clearly -- that there's nothing in there worth latching onto. VI. Why is it important to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? "In practicing the Dhamma, if you don't foster a balance between concentration and discernment, you'll end up going wild in your thinking. If there's too much work at discernment, you'll go wild in your thinking. If there's too much concentration, it just stays still and undisturbed without coming to any knowledge either. So you have to keep them in balance. Stillness has to be paired with discernment. Don't let there be too much of one or the other. Try to get them just right. That's when you'll be able to see things clearly all the way through. Otherwise, you'll stay as deluded as ever. You may want to gain discernment into too many things -- and as a result, your thinking goes wild. The mind goes out of control. Some people keep wondering why discernment never arises in their practice, but when it does arise they really go off on a tangent. Their thinking goes wild, all out of bounds. "So when you practice, you have to observe in your meditation how you can make the mind still. Once it does grow still, it tends to get stuck there. Or it may grow empty, without any knowledge of anything: quiet, disengaged, at ease for a while, but without any discernment to accompany it. But if you can get discernment to accompany your concentration, that's when you'll really benefit. You'll see things all the way through and be able to let go. If you're too heavy on the side of either discernment or stillness, you can't let go. VII. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? "Try looking into how feeling gives rise to craving. It's because we want pleasant feeling that craving whispers -- whispers right there at the feeling. If you observe carefully, you'll see that this is very important, for this is where the paths and fruitions leading to nibbana are attained, right here at feeling and craving. If we can extinguish the craving in feeling, that's nibbana... "You have to contemplate to see how craving fastens the mind so firmly to feelings that you never weary of sensuality or of pleasant feelings, no matter what the level. If you don't contemplate so as to see clearly that the mind is stuck right here at feeling and craving, it will keep you from gaining release... "We're stuck on feeling like a monkey stuck in a tar trap. They take a glob of tar and put it where a monkey will get its hand stuck in it and, in trying to pull free, the monkey gets its other hand, both feet, and finally its mouth stuck, too. Consider this: Whatever we do, we end up stuck right here at feeling and craving. We can't separate them out. We can't wash them off. If we don't grow weary of craving, we're like the monkey stuck in the glob of tar, getting ourselves more and more trapped all the time. "So if we're intent on freeing ourselves in the footsteps of the arahants, we have to focus specifically on feeling until we can succeed at freeing ourselves from it. Even with painful feelings, we have to practice -- for if we're afraid of pain and always try to change it to pleasure, we'll end up even more ignorant than before. ---------------------------------------------- Kindest regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > I like your straight, direct questions. I add only a little to Larry's > answers, selecting just a few points. I like his answers. I snipped to make > the post shorter. > Nina. 41045 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/05 3:02:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > I would like to see the suttas, but I have trouble with different > annotations in different editions. It is propably ATI and how can I trace > it? Or could you perhaps give links? > Thank you, > Nina. ---------------------------------------- Howard: They were not taken from ATI, but from e book The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. The reference notation (X,Y,Z) means X = chapter, Y = sutta number, and Z = vagga/group. The vagga is only for the chapters of The Ones and The Twos. So (II, ii, 9) means Chapter of the Twos, Sutta number two, and vagga number nine. That is how it is explained in the book. ------------------------------------ > > op 16-01-2005 17:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to > >prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of > >selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas > that I > >think > >are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: > > > >(II, i, 5) > >(II, ii, 9) > >(III, 32) > >(III, 45) > >(IV, 12) > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41046 From: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi again, Nina - What I wrote printed out poorly. It should have looked more as follows: > Howard: > They were not taken from ATI, but from the book The Numerical Discourses > > of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, > Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. The reference notation (X,Y,Z) means > X = > chapter, Y = sutta number, and Z = vagga/group. The vagga is only for the > chapters of The Ones and The Twos. So (II, ii, 9) means Chapter of the Twos, > Sutta number two, and vagga number nine. That is how it is explained in the > book. > With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41047 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hello Nina, Hope you are well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Pilgrimage India 2 a. > > Chapter 2 > > The Latent Tendencies. > > Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the > next citta, unwholesome and wholesome inclinations are accumulated from > moment to moment and from life to life. Wholesome qualities, such as > generosity and loving kindness are accumulated and can therefore condition > the arising again of kusala citta with generosity and loving kindness. > Unwholesome qualities are also accumulated and can therefore condition the > arising again of akusala citta. > The latent tendencies, anusayas, are unwholesome inclinations that are > accumulated and these are classified as a group of seven defilements. They > condition the arising of many kinds of akusala cittas. ...... Azita: If anusayas are unwholesome inclinations, is there a Pali word for the wholesome inclinations? only yesterday I was thinking that 'anusayas' covered both but seems that is incorrect. Can these wholesome ones eventually become perfections [given the right conditions of course]? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41048 From: mnease Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hi Azita, I think you're looking for 'aayuuhana'. By the way, while I was casting about for this I rediscovered a nice site with a good Paali dictionary: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/ You need some fonts for this which are downloadable from the same page. Cheers! mik ----- Original Message ----- From: "gazita2002" To: Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > Azita: If anusayas are unwholesome inclinations, is there a Pali > word for the wholesome inclinations? only yesterday I was thinking > that 'anusayas' covered both but seems that is incorrect. 41049 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi Nina & Howard, S: I hope you had a good break, Nina and I'm glad to hear that Lodewijk is appreciating the discussions. It's always good to hear any of his input. --- upasaka@a... wrote: --------------------------------------- > Howard: > They were not taken from ATI, but from e book The Numerical > Discourses > of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu > Bodhi, > Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. ---- S: Nina, these are references to the Pali. In the PTS transl,Grad Sayings, see: > > >(II, i, 5) .... PTS Vol 1, p45. starting: 'Two things, monks, I have realized: to be discontented in good states'etc, down to 'That is how ye must train yourselves, monks' at the top of p.46 In BB's transl, he gives it the title 'Unremitting Efort'. --- > > >(II, ii, 9) .... PTS Vol, p53. this is Lodewijk's favourite which you quoted in part I, India series...'Abandon evil..' etc BB's transl, 'Abandon Evil' --- > > >(III, 32) .... PTS Vol 1, p116. Sariputta' BB's transl, 'Free of I-making'. --- > > >(III, 45) ... PTS Vol 1,p134. 'Duties' BB's transl, 'Prescribed by the Wise' --- > > >(IV, 12) .... PTS Vol2, p.14, 'Virtue' BB's transl, 'Training in Determination and Insight'. --- I hope this helps. Metta, Sarah ====== 41050 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:42pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 99- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Cetanå which accompanies lokuttara citta is not a link in the Dependant Origination. The lokuttara citta which is 'magga-citta' (path-consciousness) produces vipåka (the phala-citta or fruitconsciousness)immediately; the phala-citta succeeds the maggacitta. Since the magga-citta eradicates defilements it will free one from the cycle of birth and death. The arahat is freed from rebirth. He does not perform kamma which can produce vipåka. The cetanå which accompanies the kiriyacittas of the arahat and the ahetuka kiriyacitta which is the hasituppåda-citta (smile-producing consciousness) of the arahat, is not abhisaòkhåra, it is not a link in the Dependant Origination1.(1) *** 1) The arahat has no kusala cittas nor akusala cittas, cittas which are cause, which can motivate kamma which produces result. Instead he has kiriya cittas,inoperative cittas, which do not produce result. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41051 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hi Mike & Azita, Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I heard K.Sujin saying, I believe. PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically related. Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya(inclination, hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent tendencies. I'm sure Nina will be adding more. Metta, Sarah ====== --- mnease wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > I think you're looking for 'aayuuhana'. ... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gazita2002" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:45 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > > > Azita: If anusayas are unwholesome inclinations, is there a Pali > > word for the wholesome inclinations? only yesterday I was thinking > > that 'anusayas' covered both but seems that is incorrect. 41052 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali, Pali and New to the list Hi Tep, I'm enjoying all your threads, including the quiz discussions. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Hi, Sarah - > > Thank you very much for the valuable Pali usage guidelines for new > members (including me). I notice that nearly (99.99%?) everyone here > refer to Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta translations. Are there an online version > of these excellent works? ... S: Mostly not, apart from some which have appeared as Wheel translations, eg the Discourse on Right View (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta and comy) transl by Nanamoli and edited and revised by Bodhi. Actually, there are quite a few good wheel translations on line (I believe some on the ATI site), so maybe have a list of these handy. I was discussing another from MN with comy notes recently with James which was also on line. They're very useful. The Wheels can mostly be obtained from BPS or Pariyatti in the States and are very cheap (esp from BPS). The AN Anthology Howard was referring to: 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' is a fairly slim, paperback anthology of BB's and Nyanaponika's translations - most (if not all) used to be in wheels as I recall. It's really worth getting and not too expensived. The MN and SN translations are large texts and therefore more pricey. .... >I have relied upon AccesstoInsight and > MettaTipitaka for a long time and felt like a loner among the majority > of > deep-sea divers here. Any suggestion? ... S: Don't feel like a loner in this regard, it's just a noisy minority that refers to the others, I'm sure. It is good to compare translations and I think where Nanamoli/Bodhi ones are available with commentary notes in brief or full, these are generally the best at this time. I actually 'grew up' on the PTS text translations which were all that used to be available and vary quite a lot. (Nina still mainly uses these - in some cases, like for the full AN, they are still all that is available). I've seldom used the ATI or Metta site translations (never before DSG)as I like to look at a hard copy. I recommend saving up for and purchasing BB's when you are able. You're one person who would get great use out of them. (Ask Phil, he's just taken the plunge and has gone very quiet in the process;-)). Metta, Sarah ===== 41053 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Hi Steve & All, > --- seisen_au wrote: > > Hi All > > I have a query regarding the avijja>sankhara links of > > Paticcasamuppada. My understanding is that kusala citta can not be > > rooted with avijja/moha. How then is it explained that avijja > > conditions kusala kamma/cetana/sankhara? > … > S: I think the installment just posted answers this. .... S: In addition to the brief comments Htoo and I gave, I just came across the following post with quotes Nina and I gave before from Dispeller which adds more: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39821 Metta, Sarah S: >Avijja is the > direct > or indirect cause of all conditioned dhammas. Without ignorance of > realities and the 4NT, no rebirth, no suffering and so on. Remember the > 3 > rounds of kilesa vatta, kamma vatta and vipaka vatta. Kusala is included > in kamma vatta, but not in kilesa vatta. Also,under natural decisive > support condition, akusala can be a condition for kusala and vice versa > too. Do you have BB's translation of the Mahanidana Sutta and > commentaries? At the back, there is a detailed explanation of the > various > conditions involved, I believe. Also lots in 'Dispeller', which I'm > happy > to add. 41054 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike & Azita, > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I heard > K.Sujin saying, I believe. > > PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically related. > Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya (inclination, > hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is > combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent > tendencies. > ======= Dear Azita, This tape talks about aasaya and anusaya http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/india2004/A_BodhGaya_06.mp3 Robert 41056 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: Pali, Pali and New to the list Hi, Sarah - S: > Actually, there are quite a few good wheel translations on line > (I believe some on the ATI site), so maybe have a list of these handy. > The Wheels can mostly be obtained from BPS or > Pariyatti in the States > and are very cheap (esp from BPS). > The AN Anthology Howard was referring to: 'Numerical Discourses of > the Buddha' is a fairly slim, paperback anthology of BB's and > Nyanaponika's translations - most (if not all) used to be in wheels as I recall. It's really worth getting and not too expensived. > The MN and SN translations are large texts and therefore more pricey. Thank you for the valuable information- it's very kind of you to give me the detail which is exactly what I asked for. Also, I am happy that you and Jon have approved those threads I have written so far. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I'm enjoying all your threads, including the quiz discussions. > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Sarah - > > > > Thank you very much for the valuable Pali usage guidelines for new > > members (including me). I notice that nearly (99.99%?) everyone here > > refer to Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta translations. Are there an online version > > of these excellent works? > ... > S: Mostly not, apart from some which have appeared as Wheel translations, > eg the Discourse on Right View (Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta and comy) transl by > Nanamoli and edited and revised by Bodhi. Actually, there are quite a few > good wheel translations on line (I believe some on the ATI site), so maybe > have a list of these handy. I was discussing another from MN with comy > notes recently with James which was also on line. They're very useful. The > Wheels can mostly be obtained from BPS or Pariyatti in the States and are > very cheap (esp from BPS). > > The AN Anthology Howard was referring to: 'Numerical Discourses of the > Buddha' is a fairly slim, paperback anthology of BB's and Nyanaponika's > translations - most (if not all) used to be in wheels as I recall. It's > really worth getting and not too expensived. The MN and SN translations > are large texts and therefore more pricey. > .... > >I have relied upon AccesstoInsight and > > MettaTipitaka for a long time and felt like a loner among the majority > > of > > deep-sea divers here. Any suggestion? > ... > S: Don't feel like a loner in this regard, it's just a noisy minority that > refers to the others, I'm sure. It is good to compare translations and I > think where Nanamoli/Bodhi ones are available with commentary notes in > brief or full, these are generally the best at this time. I actually 'grew > up' on the PTS text translations which were all that used to be available > and vary quite a lot. (Nina still mainly uses these - in some cases, like > for the full AN, they are still all that is available). > > I've seldom used the ATI or Metta site translations (never before DSG)as I > like to look at a hard copy. I recommend saving up for and purchasing BB's > when you are able. You're one person who would get great use out of them. > (Ask Phil, he's just taken the plunge and has gone very quiet in the > process;-)). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 41057 From: mnease Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Hi Rob and Sarah (and Azita), Thanks for the corrections. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:39 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Mike & Azita, > > > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I > heard > > K.Sujin saying, I believe. > > > > PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically > related. > > Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya > (inclination, > > hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is > > combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent > > tendencies. > > > ======= > Dear Azita, > This tape talks about aasaya and anusaya > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/india2004/A_BodhGaya_06.mp3 > Robert 41058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, Perhaps I have to clarify a little more what I said. op 16-01-2005 22:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: T: 2. Nina mentions that thinking (mental formation) can be the > object of vipassana, which implies that it can be "desirable" (i.e. > contributing to panna). N: I meant to say: anything that is real and appears can be object of vipassana, thus also thinking. T: 3. Both Larry and Nina do not see why, during a meditation, > concentration has to be in a good balance with discernment. Htoo > does. N: Yes, balance is necessary. I said: <: Right understanding and right concentration of the eightfold Path have as object nama and rupa. When there is right understanding, all other factors are balanced because of it. Nobody has to try to balance, it happens because of conditions.> If that would not be the case one would try and try to concentrate on nama and rupa, but that would not help. Paññaa has to see them as conditioned, not caused by a self. Tep, thanks for the article, but now I cannot read it, it is too long. Could you give a summary and render especially what you yourself think about it. Nina. 41059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Hi Sarah and Howard, thank you both for all the trouble. I have got it. I like the suttas very much and shall study them with the Commentaries I have in Thai. op 17-01-2005 05:36 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: I hope you had a good break, Nina and I'm glad to hear that Lodewijk is > appreciating the discussions. It's always good to hear any of his input. N: Thanks, it was excellent, and I had good discussions with Lodewijk while having delicious meals at the restaurant. They made long breaks between courses, but we took suttas and my notebook to the table. Why waste our time and dillydally. We discussed about suttas Lodewijk had read. I shall render more of Lodewijk's words by and by. We also discussed Larry's and Joop's points. This morning we discussed about Howard's points. Nina. 41060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Sarah, Mike, Azita. op 17-01-2005 06:07 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I heard > K.Sujin saying, I believe. N: K. Sujin said in India that aasaya refers to good accumulated inclinations. Meaning: abode, dependence, support, condiiton, inclination. When we speak about latent tendencies, this term is reserved only for the seven unwholesome tendencies that lie dormant in the citta. Anusaya: sayati or seti: to sleep. It lies dormant. Now I shall quote from the Co in Thai I translated: Azita, do ask if there is anything not clear. Nina. 41061 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 130, and Tiika Hi Larry, op 16-01-2005 21:07 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I have several questions on this subject. First, is a sign a concept? N: Sign, nimitta, can have several meanings, depending on the context. When it is in the context of samatha it is for example the mental image of a kasina and that is a concept. In our text it stands for saññaa making a mark again and again and recognizing the object again and again. In this context we have to remember that sañña arises with each citta, it is a universal cetasika. This means that it shares the same object with citta and thus it marks and remembers realities, citta, cetasika and rupa, and concepts. It can also mark nibbana. There is still another meaning of nimitta. When it is explained in the suttas: not paying attention to the image and the details (nimitta and anuvyañjana), nimitta has the meaning of an image or concept of a whole. Seeing sees visible object, but after seeing we pay attention to a person or thing we perceive and we fail to see that that is not seeing visible object but thinking of a concept. We cling to such images and believe that they exist, that they are lasting and permanent. L: If yes, does that mean sanna cetasika is the source of concepts? N: It also remembers concepts. I would not say, source. L: Does sanna cetasika perceive, or put together, several dhammas into a > whole or is the "making whole" a characteristic of sankhara > cetasikas? N: Saññaa can remember a whole of several impressions, and we call this whole concept or idea. This can be remembered with wrong view but not necessarily so. Also arahats remember concepts. They recognize persons and things. Saññaa itself is not the defaulter, but the accompanying wrong view. However, saññaa does not always put together several dhammas into a whole. When it arises in a sense-door process it merely marks the rupa experienced by citta at that moment. It arises with the sense-door adverting consciousness, with the sense-cognition, etc. When it arises with insight it marks only one nama or rupa at a time which is the object of insight, no wholes or concepts. L:The tika says, "It is manifested as the action of > interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind > who 'see' an elephant." I take this to mean sanna (without panna) > takes one characteristic of a whole and makes that characteristic a > sign of the whole. N: There are several moments of citta accompanied by saññaa. Before the blind think of an elephant there have to be moments of body-consciousness experiencing tangible object, such as hardness or softness, thus, rupas, not concepts. After that they think of the whole of a pot shape, and that is a concept. Then they associate this wrongly with elephant. This is an example of wrong interpretation. The text gives this example and makes a contrast with right interpretation, not taking things wrongly. That is the case when saññaa is accompanied by paññaa which sees things as they are. L: Also, when a color is a mental image (nimitta) is the color nama or > rupa? N: Neither, it is a paññatti. I think here of the colour kasina. Nina. 41062 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma Thank you, Sarah! You did a lot better in your reply than I. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/16/05 11:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > Hi Nina &Howard, > > S: I hope you had a good break, Nina and I'm glad to hear that Lodewijk is > appreciating the discussions. It's always good to hear any of his input. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > --------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > They were not taken from ATI, but from e book The Numerical > >Discourses > >of the Buddha, translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera &Bhikkhu > >Bodhi, > >Altamira Press, Copyright 1999 by BPS. > ---- > S: Nina, these are references to the Pali. In the PTS transl,Grad Sayings, > see: > > >>>(II, i, 5) > .... > PTS Vol 1, p45. starting: > > 'Two things, monks, I have realized: to be discontented in good > states'etc, down to 'That is how ye must train yourselves, monks' at the > top of p.46 > > In BB's transl, he gives it the title 'Unremitting Efort'. > --- > >>>(II, ii, 9) > .... > PTS Vol, p53. this is Lodewijk's favourite which you quoted in part I, > India series...'Abandon evil..' etc > > BB's transl, 'Abandon Evil' > --- > >>>(III, 32) > .... > PTS Vol 1, p116. Sariputta' > > BB's transl, 'Free of I-making'. > --- > >>>(III, 45) > ... > PTS Vol 1,p134. 'Duties' > > BB's transl, 'Prescribed by the Wise' > --- > >>>(IV, 12) > .... > PTS Vol2, p.14, 'Virtue' > > BB's transl, 'Training in Determination and Insight'. > --- > I hope this helps. > > Metta, > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41063 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Nina - > N: > Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up > (vu.t.thaana) to magga. T: Could you please explain the term vu.t.thaana a bit? Is the strength of vipassana the same as strength (bala) of the five indriyas? > N: When we just read the translation above it would seem that > concentration is a foremost factor for vipassana. > But there is more to it, the matter is more complex. T: Do you mean that both concentration as samadhi (stillness of mind), and concentration as a factor of the enlightenment (samadhi sambojjhanga) are requisites for vipassana? Or is there more to it? > N: As to knowledge, vijjaa and freedom, vimutti, > the Co explains that this refers to wisdom of the arahatta magga > and that freedom is phalavimutti, the freedom of > the fruition of the arahatta. T: In other words, does the Co mean that direct knowledge is only experienced by the Arahat? If that's true, then the ordinary people can never hope to train for direct knowledge by jumping on the vipassana wagon without prior trainings in purifications of virtues, consciousness (samadhi) and views (ditthi)? > N: As to the balancing of the indriyas, there is a great deal of material. > Let us collect different suttas. Also as to the 37 factors, we can make a > study of Kindred Sayings, Mahavagga, the secion on the Limbs of > Wisdom. I would suggest that we do this little by little. So much > material cannot be described in one post. T: Great idea, Nina. Let's do just that. Thank you for asking me to 'walk along' with you. Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 12-01-2005 03:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > 41064 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, Thanks for your full answers. I appreciate your research, your quotes, and your understanding on Dhamma. Here I responded your answers, which may be agreeing, adding, or may be some different views. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com, tepsastri@y... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Hi Htoo and Everyone - I appreciate your thought very much, Htoo. In my previous post there was a confusing use of the terminology: in question IV nama-rupa might be confused with citta-sankhara. Thank you for letting me know it. Now it is my turn to give my answers and hope to see more discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Tep. This is the point why I respond your answers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: I. Why is bare attention or `mental noting' not enough for insight knowledge development? Tep's answer I. Mental noting is an effectvie training tool for fostering mindfulness when a distracting thought arises; the meditator is aware of the thought, he lets it go and turns his mind back to the meditation. Mental noting is also very useful to train for awareness of body movements and when a sense contact arises. It is one of the conditions that support discernment, but insight knowledge development requires vipassana of the three characteristics of the five aggregates. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment on discussion I. 1. 'Mental noting' is 'an effective tool' for fostering mindfulness [helps cleansing distracting thoughts]. 2. 'Mental noting' is useful to train for 'awareness of body movement'. Question: What do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? The last sentence is dead right. But this has not to be transferral from book knowledge. It has to be direct knowledge which is the exact copy of what The Buddha discovered and preached to His disciples. For this portion, I will be looking forward to hearing the answer to ''Question:what do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? '' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question II: II. How do we practice mindfulness so that the mind is free from distracting thoughts? Tep's answer II: When a distracting thought occurs we simply observe it with bare attention. If after several mental notings the distrating thought is still strong we would have to change the tactic to repeat one or more of the followings. 1) Re-focus your attention on the breathing again. 2) Reflect on the drawbacks of the distracting thoughts. 3) Investigate the distracting thought itself (its composition, its being a conditioned thing, its being not-self), then let it go and return to the primary object of meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The trainee needs to note that 'when a distracting thought arises' note it as distracting thought and know its arising. By the same token 'when a well concentrated mind is there' note it as 'well concentrated mind' and its persistence. This is 'cittaanupassana' or 'detail-noting-on-current-mind-state'. Mahasatipatthana or 'mindfulness meditation' tells us to note each arising whatever it is concentrated mind or distracted mind. So called is vipassana and this clearly indicates whether jhana is needed or not. If arupa jhana cittas arise, note them as well concentrated mind and if rupa jhana cittas arise, again note them as well concentrated mind. If concentrated mind of sensuous kind arise, note it as 'well concentrated mind'. By the same token, when distracting thoughts arise note them as distracting thoughts. This is both dhamma-anupassana and citta-anupassana. Because 'distracting mind' is nivarana dhamma or 'hindrance' and noting it as 'nivarana' or 'hindrance' is dhamma-anupassana. Again these mind whatever concentrated or distracted they are cittas and so noting on them as such and such cittas is citta-anupassana. This is just an example of co-arising. If well trained other co- arising will also be seen. If well perfected co-arising of more than 30 dhammas will be noted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's answer II continued: Indeed, a distracting thought is a hindrance. Recall the Ven. Vimalaramsi's advice: "when a hindrace arises there is also the like or dislike of that state of mind. If one likes this feeling then the meditator will indulge in it and get caught by it so this feeling gets stronger and happens more often. Also, if the meditator doesn't like it then this dissatisfaction can cause mind to get caught by the attachment to restlessness and the feeling gets stronger. So it takes a very balanced mind that notices when a hindrance arises and is able to see just how it occurs". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: Bhante Vimalaramsi is an amazing bhikkhu in such matter. He can catch 'I like it' 'I don't like it' mind. Actually when I wrote 'Tracing the mind track' I wrote as 'recognizing riding flow'. The flow here is arising and falling away of citta. It is flowing by continuously arising while at the same time it is continuously falling away one after another. This is the flow, I wrote. Riding the word is designated as 'recognizer'. That recognizer is riding for example on a horse back and it the same time he knows whether the horse is a male or female horse [there may be some words for more appropriate usage like 'stellion', but at least this may work]. This is a simile. It is flowing. At the exact present moment is rider and who is also recognizer. So this recognizer may detect 'I like it' 'I don't like it' mind much more earlier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question III: III. Why are mental fabrications or thought formations (citta- sankhara) considered undesirable? Tep's answer III: Simply because thought formations are not real, and they lead mind to the kind of consciousness that promotes accumulation of the clinging aggregates (upadanakkhandha). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: I do not agree on 'thought formations are not real'. Tep, why do you say they are not real? Is it because of our terminology? What I know is 'thought formations' or 'mental fabrications' or 'citta-sankhara' or '50 cetasikas' after leaving vedana and sanna cetasikas who are separate khandhas are all real. They are paramattha dhamma. Question: Why should they be not real? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question IV: IV. How would clear insight and vision be realized by contemplating thought formations? Tep's answer IV: Simply by contemplating (vipassana) the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) of the thought formations that are arising or passing away at the present, moment by moment, diligently and mindfully. We must train to focus in on mind in order to see clearly each of the three characteristics of the concocted thoughts and their drawbacks (they make us blind, deluded, and unable to let go of the defilements, etc.). Only then, can we develop clear insight and vision of the clinging aggregates. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's addition: I agree with you. Here I add more information. Mental formations are real dhamma. They are ultimate realities. They are paramattha dhamma. They are cetasikas. They do arise and do fall away. They bring 'impermance' by arising and falling away. They do bring unsatifactoriness because of this impermanence. They do bring self- less characteritic as they are not controllable [if controllable it will be possible that 'this dhamma do not arise here' 'that dhamma do not fall away'. But unfortunately this is not the case and all dhamma are anatta. So by contemplating on 'mental formation' which is realities this will finally lead to recognizing of three characteristics. Again this has to be direct knowing and this has not to be transferral from the text or hearing from others including The Buddha. But before this direct knowledge it is essential to have the right view and to understand these characteritics as The Buddha taught. Otherwise The Buddha would not have taught us and would have told us 'try yourselves and see them by your direct knowledge'. But The Buddha did not. The Buddha explained anicca, dukkha, anatta in line with 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates [quote anatta-lakkhana-sutta]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question V: V. Why is it important for meditators to balance concentration with discernment and how to do it? [a)why important,b)how to balance] Tep's answer V: Too much concentration will lead mind to absorption and weak discernment. Too much discernment results in mind being bombarded with lots of thoughts and lost concentration. Therefore, we have to balance concentration with discernment. Concentration and discernment are in the dhamma group known as 'indriyas'. The meditator balances the two indriyas by withdrawing from concentration before it gets to be absorbed in equanimity and contemplating on the one of the five clinging aggregates (such as thought formations) based on vipassana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: I agree. There are 5 indriya dhammas or 5 faculties. They also work as bala dhamma or 'leaders not afraid of any enemies'. They are 1. saddha or 'confidence'[this is not enough translation] 2. sati or mindfulness 3. viriya or effort 4. samadhi or concentration 5. panna or wisdom Even arising of saddha may work for the whole 5 indriyas. In which way? If saddha is strong then other may follow and this finally lead to equilibrium. To become a Sammasambuddha initial dhammas may be 1. saddha 2. viriya 3. panna If one determines to become a Sammasambuddha on the basis of saddha then this will finally lead to fulfiling of perfections and seraching of dhamma and then will become a Sammasambuddha. But this is the longest way to become a Sammasambuddha. It takes 16 asankheyas and 100,000 kappas. If one determines on the basis of viriya, it will take 8 asankheyas and 100,000 kappas. The shortest way is on the basis of panna. It takes 4 asankheyas and 100,000 kappas. The Buddha Gotama had to fulfil for 4 sankheyas and 100,000 kappas. But balancewise saddha, sati,viriya seem arise easily while concentration and panna are the hardest things to achieve. Every Buddhist knows this. Some argue concentration is important. Some argue panna is important. Even there are 2 different kind of classifications on lokuttara cittas. One is 8 lokuttara cittas and another is 40 lokuttara cittas. This difference is because of concentration. But panna is included in both classifications. So it is evident that which is more important. But before attaining anything, it is hard to tell how to achieve these. Panna first or concentration first or panna and concentration in tandem or other unspecifed way [quote yuganaddha sutta]. Anyway before attaining any thing, it is wise to balance concentration and wisdom. Tep already explained why they are important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question VI: VI. How do we train mind to be free from craving for pleasant feelings? Tep's answer VI: By constantly reflecting on the drawbacks of pleasant feelings, e.g. they are impermanent and will surely lead to dukkha; they delude mind by making it unaware of the dangers of cravings and the consequential sufferings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: Good answer. It is complete. When all 'dukkha' are understood with the aid of teachers or texts it will not be hard to contemplate 'undesirable' on these 'pleasant feeling'. I had my person meditative experience. Once when I was young I lived in a flat. Neighbour could be well heard as partitions were not that thick. My meditation sessions were mostly in the evening and late evening. Early evening was not a problem. In late evening there sometimes were problems with noice. It was quite distracting. As this group is Buddhism Discussion Group, it would not be appropriate to say vulgar things or something like that. But it is essential here. It was a young couple. Now you can think it out. So my late sessions always had to be canceled and I had to go outside. I tested once, twice and walked away. After a month or so I acquired a special recognition on arising thought and I was able to turn that thought. I continued to meditate in the middle of noice and I was able to turn my mind to the right object. This was just sharing how I did on the matter. But actually sappaya or suitability is very important. That is why most monastries in Buddhist countries in the past were outskirt of the cities, towns, villages etc etc. Whenever pleasant feeling arises we have to discern on it as dukkha. As there are many different kind of dukkha it is possible to contemplate as dukkha on pleasant feeling.[Four Ariya' Noble Truth series in this JTN site explains different kinds of dukkha]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Question VII: VII. What is direct seeing and how is it developed? Tep's answer VII: Direct seeing is the insight knowledge (vipassana-nana) of body-mind, internal and external sense media (salayatana), and five clinging aggregates at the present, the way they really are, i.e. anicca, dukkha and anatta. The answers in IV, V, and VI above are all about the development of direct seeing. MN149, Maha-salayatanika Sutta: The Great Six Sense-media Discourse is a great sutta that explains how direct seeing through the six sense media can be developed. "For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development (bodhipakkhiya-dhamma). [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight. "He comprehends through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be comprehended through direct knowledge, abandons through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be abandoned through direct knowledge, develops through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be developed through direct knowledge, and realizes through direct knowledge whatever qualities are to be realized through direct knowledge. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn149.html Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: Very good Tep. These discussions are very helpful. Regarding 'direct seeing', The Buddha preached Dhamma attributes. It is ''paccattam-veditabbo vinnuhi'ti''. Each directly sees and become the wise and it is an attribute of Dhamma. May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41065 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (237) Dear Dhamma Friends, Caution!! This is a special post. Dhamma Thread is for all grades of Dhamma learners. Actually I starts with very very simple messages. More simple things are still coming. Whenever advanced matters are seen, beginners can keep them unread until they become advanced. There are citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana when everything is seen at ultimate level. Nothing more than these dhamma. I will repeat there are citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana and nothing more than these dhamma as ultimate realities. At any given time there always is a citta. Citta cannot arise in its own without any cetasika. So 'there always is a citta' already include its associated cetasikas. 'There always is a citta' means a citta of 89 total cittas or 121 total cittas. 'At any given time' is given to the viewer who would view on citta. Again citta may be ajjhattika or 'inside' or 'intrinsic'. This is what the viewer will definitely see with his mind-eye. Or citta may be bahiddhika or 'outside' or 'extrinsic'. This is indirect understanding that there exist citta outside. But outside cittas can never be sensed as first-hand knowledge. There are many many cittas and 89 cittas means 'just a summary of cittas with specific characterisitcs, which when say have such and such characteritics'. In actual term, there are infinite cittas and countless cittas even within ourselves. Anyway at any given time there is a citta. If it is patisandhi kala or 'at the time of rebirth' that citta is called patisandhi citta. This citta is process-free citta. It is also vithi-mutta citta [process-free]. It is also dvara-vimutta citta. That means this citta does not arise at any of 6 dvara or doors namely cakkhu-dvara or eye-door, sota-dvara or ear-door, ghana-dvara or nose-door, jivha-dvara or tongue-door, kaya-dvara or body-door, and mano-dvara or mind-door. That citta already determines what the satta should be. The sattas here means a being and this is just a name but we all understand what it is. Depending on this kind of citta called patisandhi cittas there are 31 kinds of satta or beings. Or they are born in 31 realms or 31 bhumis. Among 31 bhumis, asannisattas are interesting because they do not have any citta and they live with rupa only. How can that happen in the world [world of kama, world of rupa, world of arupa]? It of course can happen. Before discussing on this let us continue on cittas. When at a given time a citta is a bhavanga citta it also indicates that such citta arises in so and so satta or being. By the same token when the given time is at cuti kala or just before disappearing from the current life, citta at that time is called cuti citta or dying-consciousness. It also determines what sort of satta hosts that citta. So 1.patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness or linking- consciousness, 2.bhavanga citta or life-continuum or life-continuing- consciousness, 3.cuti citta or dying-consciousness are all called process-free consciousness or vithi-mutta cittas. Vithi cittas and vithi varas have been discussed in the previous posts. So if the given time is not 'patisandhi, bhavanga, cuti' then a citta has to be one of vithi citta. We will not talk on a single vithi citta. But we need to discussed a single vara and then to different vithi varas. So far we have discussed on 1. pancadvara vithi vara ( at 1.eye, 2.ear, 3.nose, 4.tongue, 5.body) There are 4 kinds of 'arising of different vithi citta in a vithi vara' and it is called 'visaya-pavatti'. For pancadvara vithi cittas, objects make arising of 4 different series of cittas and these series or processing cittas arise in visaya-pavatti. 4 visaya-pavatti for pancadvara vithi vara are 1.ati-mahanta-arammana [very clear object] 2. mahanta-arammana [ clear object] 3. paritta-arammana [ faint object] 4.ati-paritta-arammana [very faint object] So there will be 4 >< 5 = 20 pancadvara vithi varas. 2.manodvara vithi vara a) kama javana vara 1.vibhuta-arammana [very obvious object] 2.avibhuta-arammana[ obvious object] b) jhana vithi vara c) magga vithi vara d) abhinna vithi vara e) jhana-samapatti f) phala-samapatti g) nirodha-samapatti So 'at a given time' there is a citta [cetasikas already included] and that citta has to be one of 19 cittas when it is a process-free consciousness. Otherwise it is one of vithi cittas in the above vithi vara. Special vithi vara that does not include here is marana-asanna-javana vithi vara. It is the last process of cittas in a life and it has been explained in the previous post. It may well be kama javana vara of akusala or kusala. Or it may well be jhana vithi vara. But it cannot be nirodha-samapatti. If it is then it is not a full one. That is arahat will end with some phala or kiriya citta as the last javana citta and the final one is cuti-citta, which is like the patisandhi- citta when they life started before attaining arahatship. There left an interesting vithi vara. It is before and after arising of asannisatta brahmas. Asannisattas do not have any citta. So they do not have any vithi vara or vithi citta or patisandhi citta or cuti citta. They are said to arise with rupa-patisandhi and when they die they die with rupa-cuti. Once I found a message that 'asannisattas have 2 exceptional cittas and one is patisandhi citta and another is cuti citta'. I do not believe that asannisatta brahmas have any citta at all. So in that case of asannisattas what happen to linking? What and what are linked? What will be marana-asanna-javana cittas in them? As they do not have any citta, there is no marana-asanna-javana citta. If so, what will be the object of next life's patisandhi citta? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. Dear Htoo, I try to answer. The arahat is no longer subject to the cycle, but for him: no more avijjaa, no more abhisankhara. There is still vipaaka that is the result of former kamma, committed before he was an arahat. This does not mean that he is still subject to the cycle of birth and death. See Samyutta Nikaya II, Upanisa Sutta. op 12-01-2005 19:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Does that part explaine sankhara, the second link of paticcasamuppada. > The message is clear. But may I extend it? > > For arahats what happen to those links avijja and sankhara and > vinnana. > > Obviously they do not have avijjana. But they do have vinnana. What > is the middle in between them? 41067 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:55am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 b Pilgrimage India 2 b Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black curtain, they prevent us from seeing realities as they are. When we see, it always seems that we see people and things, whereas in reality only visible object can impinge on the eyesense. We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but when there is awareness and understanding we are on the island of Dhamma, the island of satipatthåna. We read in the Parinibbåna Sutta (Wheel Publication, 67-69) that the Buddha spoke about his old age, and exhorted Ånanda: ³Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge... And how, Ånanda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself...? When he dwells contemplating body in the body...feeling in the feelings... mind in the mind...mental objects in the mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Teaching as his island and refuge, seeking no other refuge.² Satipatthåna is the development of understanding of all physical phenomena and mental phenomena that appear, for the purpose of realizing them as non-self. Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls away immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, but because of saññå, remembrance of former experiences, we think of people and things and these seem to last. This is wrong remembrance of self, attå-saññå. Through the development of right understanding we come to understand what anattå-saññå, the perception of non-self, means. ***** NIna. 41068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, I shall think a bit more over the answers to your questions. Meanwhile, I found good material on the conditions for the bojjhangas: Soma Thera, Co. to the satipatthanasutta. Do you have it? Larry used to guide us through the whole work and maybe he can help you where to find it on line. I always try to find connections. Such as: what are the common factors that condition the different factors of enlightenment. I came across right association, right friendship. I try to find out in how far they are developed together, or to what extent are they developed in groups. The conditions for them will tell me more. When you have the text you could look as well. op 17-01-2005 17:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: >> N: >> Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up >> (vu.t.thaana) to magga. 41069 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Hey Tep, > I like your brief answer a lot. Yes, it sure makes sense that the 4th step of the 1st tetrad results in calming the kaya-sankhara. Yes, piti is present in both the 1st tetrad and the early part of the 2nd tetrad, but the piti in the second tetrad (vedananupassana) does not connect with the breathing. It is all co-arrising. We are going from the gross to the subtle. By calming the breathing and therefore the body, piti appears. When it appears, you shift focus to it as an object. You dont stop breathing at this time as piti would evaporate. That is, if there is a sudden change to the body the piti would disappear. You have to have a fair degree of concentration for piti to arrise and stabalize enough to see it as an 'object' and not a fleeting feeling. Otherwise, you could not investigate it adequately and move on to sukha etc. And it is true that in the 3rd tetrad (cittanupassana ) the focus > is on the mind, but how do you explain that the 'delight' here is not the > same as 'citta sankhara' (which is supposed to calm down until > disappearing by the 4th step of the 2nd tetrad)? Both are citta-sankhara. But the frame of reference is shifted from vedana to mind. The reference itself is getting more subtle and the objects also. We can say that we are getting closer to consciousness itself almost devoid of an object or the object is very fine. First we calmed the body then the feelings associated with a calm body. What is left? Kel says that there are > several levels of piti, including the piti-sambojjhanga, but it is not completely clear to me. Can you elaborate further on the things > called 'delight' and 'piti' when they are mind-based, and when they are not ? Again, they are all 'mind' based. There is piti associated or arrising with a calm body. There is delight when the hindrances are in abeyance and one finds a delight in mind itself. All of this was experiential for me, I later turned to the Satipatthana and Anapanasati suttas to make sense of my experiences. I was a devoted meditator first and a student second. > Thank you for joining us. My pleasure! PEACE E 41070 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: jhanas, Anapana Dipani: 3rd tetrad Hi there, E(ric) - Your answers to the questions I asked, concerning Piti, are flawless. I am happy to know that you have the experience to back up the answers, not simply through intelligent interpretations. Extremely smart people can guess many things correctly (such as the stock market behaviors and, sometimes, political outcomes), but I doubt if they ever would be able to guess what the upekkha in the 4th rupa jhana is like. Thank you very much for the clarification. The 'co-arising' nature of the jhanic factors and the lingering piti (continuity), after the 4th step of the 2nd tetrad, make sense. Now I will have to verify it all by 'doing'. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hey Tep, > >> It is all co-arrising. We are going from the > gross to the subtle. By calming the breathing > and therefore the body, piti appears. When it > appears, you shift focus to it as an object. > You dont stop breathing at this time as > piti would evaporate. That is, if there is a sudden > change to the body the piti would disappear. > You have to have a fair degree of concentration > for piti to arrise and stabalize enough to see > it as an 'object' and not a fleeting feeling. > Otherwise, you could not investigate it adequately > and move on to sukha etc. > > > Both are citta-sankhara. But the frame of reference > is shifted from vedana to mind. The reference itself > is getting more subtle and the objects also. We can > say that we are getting closer to consciousness itself > almost devoid of an object or the object is very fine. > First we calmed the body then the feelings associated > with a calm body. What is left? > > Again, they are all 'mind' based. There is piti > associated or arrising with a calm body. There > is delight when the hindrances are in abeyance > and one finds a delight in mind itself. All of > this was experiential for me, I later turned > to the Satipatthana and Anapanasati suttas to make > sense of my experiences. I was a devoted meditator > first and a student second. > > > Thank you for joining us. > > My pleasure! > > PEACE > > E 41071 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo Dear Htoo - You said in the beginning of message #41064: > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your full answers. I appreciate your research, your quotes, and your understanding on Dhamma. Here I responded your > answers, which may be agreeing, adding, or may be some different views. Tep's reply: I am pleased that you see values in discussing the 7 questions and answers, and I also am surprised to see such a lengthy reply from you this time. Htoo: >For this portion, I will be looking forward to hearing the answer > to ''Question:what do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? '' Tep: I was referring to the experience of the vipassana meditator who uses 'bare attention' as a tool for training mindfulness of the contact (phassa) sensations which accompany the rise-and-fall of abdomen or in-and-out breaths. For example, "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever present. They usually exist distinctly all the time. During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " Satipatthana Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness by The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw The Wheel Publication No. 370/371 ISBN 955-24-0078-3 Htoo's comment: > I do not agree on 'thought formations are not real'. Tep, why do you say they are not real? Is it because of our > terminology? >What I know is 'thought formations' or 'mental fabrications' or 'citta- sankhara' or '50 cetasikas' after leaving vedana and sanna >cetasikas who are separate khandhas are all real. They are paramattha dhamma. > Question: Why should they be not real? Tep: It is true that citta-sankhara is a reality in the Paramattha-dhamma sense. Yes, according to the Abhidhamma books, sankhara khandha is a reality. However, I have been using vohara-sacca, a panatti, that has been used by every teacher of the Dhamma in the normal communication mode. Because of not knowing and not seeing the khandhas and ayatanas the way they really are, the resulting thought formation in a worldling is not to be trusted as a "truth", as they actually are deluded with defilements (including avijja). And because of that, I mean "not real" = not truthful, not actually happening. For example, a visible rupa(real) being seen by the eyes and what we think we're seeing (faked by our imaginations and labeling) are not the same. What we think we have seen is a mental fabrication: a labeled object (good, bad, beautiful, etc.) that is not the reality. Thank you for the useful discussion. I hope you will also read the answers taken from Upasika Kee's article ("Reading the Mind") as well; it is a classic. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > 41073 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Tep Questions to Kel: > > 1.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 1st > jhana? > > 2.Which levels of the 4 Ariyas cannot be achieved without the 4th > jhana? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Kel's Answers. > > Quick answer: all and none. You can look at how the expansion of > 89 type of consciousness to get 121. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep and Kel, > > Very good discussion and superb answer. Yes, the answer to each > question is all of 4 stages. And again the answer to each question is > none of 4 stages. > Tep: Htoo, I thought Kel meant the following: 1) All 4 Ariya levels can't be achieved without the 1st jhana: the same as saying that they must master at least the 1st jhana. 2) None of the 4 Ariya levels can't be achieved without the 4th jhana: the same as saying that none of them have to attain the 4th jhana. If I understood Kel correctly, then he said that in order to become an Ariya (even the Sotapanna) you had to master at least the first jhana, but even the Arahat does not need to master the fourth jhana. But I am not so sure because I believe that all rupa- and arupa-jhanas must be mastered by the Anagami and Arahat. What do you say, Kel? Htoo, by the way, how can both 'all' and 'none' be true at the same time for each situation? Htoo: > As long as there is no hindrance javana cittas are the same in terms of concentration or tranquility. > That is 'not achieving any jhanas but just with upacara samadhi' and > n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana are the same. > The only difference is number of jhana factors and state of > absorption. Tep: The above explanation flew over my head, Htoo. Could you please simplify it for me? Htoo: > What matter in the whole path leading to nibbana including pre-NEP > path is panna or wisdom. Without panna or wisdom any of magga nana will not be achieved. That is why bare attention does not work > (I may respond this at dhammasukha site later). > Tep: The above comment is clear. Thank you. Kindest regards, Tep ======= 41074 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hey Tep, > Htoo, by the way, how can both 'all' and 'none' be true at the same > time for each situation? Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. 41075 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Dear Tep, Nina, Htoo, Larry (and all) Good thread, Tep. I think the answers to the seven questions has enriched my understanding. The quote of Kee Nanayon connected to question #5 raised a new question to me. "Ultimately, you'll see that there's nothing at all -- just the arising and disbanding occurring every moment in emptiness." My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN THERAVADA ? In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions the most important principle. Nagarjuna: "whatever is dependently arisen, that is explained to be emptiness" Nyatiloka (below) associates is with 'anatta' but I got the impression in this quote Kee Nanyon associates it with impermanence (anicca). This is the way I experience it too: a dhamma aries out from the emptiness and disappears back in it. Ajahn Buddhadasa has written about it, Upasika Kee Nanayon too (in "Emptiness vs the Void"); and Thanissaro Bhikkhu (but rather silly in my opinion so I don't know if it is really an important concept) Metta Joop Nyatiloka in his 'Buddhist Dictionary': suñña (adj.), suññatá (noun): void (ness), empty (emptiness). As a doctrinal term it refers, in Theraváda, exclusively to the anattá doctrine,.i.e. the unsubstantiality of all phenomena: "Void is the world ... because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self" (suññam attena vá attaniyena vá; S. XXXV, 85); also stated of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) in the same text. See also M. 43, M. 106. - In CNidd. (quoted in Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind- consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." - In M. 121, the voiding of the mind of the cankers, in the attainment of Arahatship, is regarded as the "fully purified and incomparably highest (concept of) voidness. - See Sn. v. 1119; M. 121; M. 122 (WHEEL 87); Pts.M. II: Suñña-kathá; Vis.M. XXI, 53ff. 41076 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:33pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Tep, > If I understood Kel correctly, then he said that in order to become an > Ariya (even the Sotapanna) you had to master at least the first jhana, > but even the Arahat does not need to master the fourth jhana. Kel: Yes that's what I said except I didn't include mastery. First jhana quality mind is one that has the 5 cetasikas that is characterstic of first jhana. Mastery sorta implies absorption in the jhana itself which is a separate training. > not so sure because I believe that all rupa- and arupa-jhanas must be > mastered by the Anagami and Arahat. What do you say, Kel? Kel: Nope, dry-insight arahats would not have any jhanas. Doesn't mean they can't practice jhanas once they're arahats however. Mastery of the jhanas is what separates arahats into chief disciples, main disciples or ordinary disciples. Lack of jhanas would only impact whether or not one can attain nirodha samapatti. They can enjoy their perspective phala just fine, though mastery of it is very similar to jhana absorptions. > > As long as there is no hindrance javana cittas are the same in terms > of concentration or tranquility. > > That is 'not achieving any jhanas but just with upacara samadhi' and > > n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana are the same. > > The only difference is number of jhana factors and state of > > absorption. > > Tep: > > The above explanation flew over my head, Htoo. Could you please > simplify it for me? Kel: He's saying highest arupa jhana and access concentration have the same level of concentration or tranquility. They're just different in the number of cetasikas that appear in the citta. I'm not sure if I would agree with that because higher jhanas have better tranquility precisely by eliminating gross factors in succession. The bottom line is though, the MINIMIUM concentration required for magga-citta is first jhana. Here we define first jhana as momentary, access and absorption concentrations. - kel 41077 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Hi, Joop and all - In a message dated 1/17/05 5:31:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: > Dear Tep, Nina, Htoo, Larry (and all) > > Good thread, Tep. I think the answers to the seven questions has > enriched my understanding. > The quote of Kee Nanayon connected to question #5 raised a new > question to me. > "Ultimately, you'll see that there's nothing at all -- just the > arising and disbanding occurring every moment in emptiness." > > My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN > THERAVADA ? > > In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions the most > important principle. > Nagarjuna: "whatever is dependently arisen, that is explained to be > emptiness" > > Nyatiloka (below) associates is with 'anatta' but I got the > impression in this quote Kee Nanyon associates it with impermanence > (anicca). > ----------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, dependent origination (and cessation) involves both anatta and anicca, and it is synonymous with emptiness as regards sankhata dhammas. (The emptiness of nibbana is something else, however, and I'm not very sure what exactly. After all, nibbana is beyond conventional description except in so far as an inadequate "pointing to it" is concerned.) ---------------------------------------- This is the way I experience it too: a dhamma aries out > > from the emptiness and disappears back in it. --------------------------------------- Howard: Joop, I tend to think that the notion of an "emptiness" out of which dhammas arise and then disappear into amounts to a reification of emptiness. There is no "thing" that is emptiness. There is just the fact that all dhammas are devoid of self-existent core, of "self", of own-being. There is just the fact that nothing exists apart from everything else, independent. The primary notion of emptiness in Theravada, as far as the actual term 'su~n~na' used, is that nothing, anywhere, can properly be construed as "me" or "mine". In that sense, 'su~n~na' is synonymous with "impersonal". However, the Mahayana notion of emptiness, i.e. of insubstantiality and dependency, is also basic to Theravada, though not always referred to as 'su~n~nata'. That sense of emptiness can be found, for example, in the Uraga Sutta of the Sutta Nipata and also in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya. ------------------------------------------------ > > Ajahn Buddhadasa has written about it, Upasika Kee Nanayon too > (in "Emptiness vs the Void"); and Thanissaro Bhikkhu (but rather > silly in my opinion so I don't know if it is really an important > concept) > > Metta > > Joop > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41078 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Hi Joop, > My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN > THERAVADA ? Kel: Technically it is associated with anatta. There are fourty modes of contemplating phenomena. Anicca: as impermanent, as disintegrating, as fickle, as perishable, as unenduring, as subject to change, as having no core, as due to be annihilated, as formed, as subject to death. (10) Dukkha: as painful, as a disease, a boil, a dart, a calamity, an afflicition, as a plague, a disaster, a terror, a menace, as no protection, no shelter, no refuge, as a danger, as the root of calamity, as murderous, as subject to cankers, as mara's bait, as subject to birth, subject to ageing, subject to illness, subject so sorrow, subject to lamentation, subject to despair, subject to defilement. (25) Anatta: as alient, as empty, as vain, as void, as not-self. (5) > In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions > the most important principle. Kel: I think it's just a preference a particular tradition has acquired. In Burma too some really like anicca and some anatta. There's even some that contemplate dukkha of food and body as an example. Some DSG members are rather into anatta :) And then one gets into explaining and expounding everything based on that preference. > (anicca). This is the way I experience it too: a dhamma aries out > from the emptiness and disappears back in it. Kel: Perfectly okay. When you truly understand anicca, you understand anatta. Because everything is changing how can there be a core or soul that is permanent. Even if you want to be attached, there's nothing there to be attached to. From my experience at least, it was very obvious "conclusion" from contemplation anicca. Ledi sayadaw also says anicca and anatta are equivalent, understanding one leads to the other and vice veras. There are different modes of seeing and understanding things because we all think differently. One mode will be more natural to someone compared to another mode. - kel 41079 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' of dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, This is an announcement that Patthana Dhamma Page 63 is now ready to serve for Dhamma friends. It is about samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' of dhamma. Page 62 is about anantara paccaya or 'proximity condition' of dhamma. Patthana Dhamma pages are still ongoing and it starts from Patthana Dhamma Page 1, which is the introductory page and it is on paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities. Paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities are essential basic dhamma to understand Patthana Dhamma. Even though Patthana Dhamma is complex and complicated, they are presented in these pages as simple as possible. If we can apply Patthana Dhamma in our daily life it will be much more valuable than studying scholastically. In actual sense Patthana Dhamma can be applied in daily life. Introductory page is at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html and it starts with explanation on basic dhamma such as citta, cetasika, rupa etc etc and then each citta, each cetasika is explained each in turn. Page 59, 60, 61 and 61 are also available. So far hetu paccaya or 'root condition' of dhamma, arammana paccaya or 'object condition' of dhamma, adhipati paccaya or 'predominance condition' of dhamma, anantara paccaya or 'proximity condition' of dhamma have been explained. Currently samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' of dhammas are being explained. Samanantara paccaya can be viewed at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana63.html . Any comment, any contribution, any suggestion, any further information are welcome and they will be beneficial. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41080 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I try to answer. The arahat is no longer subject to the cycle, but for him: > no more avijjaa, no more abhisankhara. There is still vipaaka that is the > result of former kamma, committed before he was an arahat. This does not > mean that he is still subject to the cycle of birth and death. > See Samyutta Nikaya II, Upanisa Sutta. > op 12-01-2005 19:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Does that part explaine sankhara, the second link of paticcasamuppada. > > The message is clear. But may I extend it? > > > > For arahats what happen to those links avijja and sankhara and > > vinnana. > > > > Obviously they do not have avijjana. But they do have vinnana. What > > is the middle in between them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your clear answer. I had to ask because some say that the cycle or the wheel is still rotating with remaining links. I smiled when I saw that sort of message. May I ask you a few questions regarding the same matter on Dependent Origination? What is moment to moment D.O? Does that exist in teaching? If yes, what about of arahats? With much respect, Htoo Naing 41081 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas > Kel: He's saying highest arupa jhana and access concentration > have the same level of concentration or tranquility. They're just > different in the number of cetasikas that appear in the citta. I'm > not sure if I would agree with that because higher jhanas have > better tranquility precisely by eliminating gross factors in > succession. The bottom line is though, the MINIMIUM concentration > required for magga-citta is first jhana. Here we define first jhana > as momentary, access and absorption concentrations. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, A question for you. Can all phalatthana puggala without jhanas or can all ariyas without any jhanas practise phala-samapatti? With respect, Htoo Naing 41082 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo Dear Dhamma Friends, More discussion on this thread 'test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma'. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Tep's reply: I am pleased that you see values in discussing the 7 questions and answers, and I also am surprised to see such a lengthy reply from you this time. >Htoo: > >For this portion, I will be looking forward to hearing the answer > > to ''Question:what do you mean by 'when a sense contact arises'? '' Tep: I was referring to the experience of the vipassana meditator who uses 'bare attention' as a tool for training mindfulness of the contact (phassa) sensations which accompany the rise-and-fall of abdomen or in-and-out breaths. For example, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree 100% here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever present. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Tep, do you mean the object for body-consciousness is ever present or present all the time? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's continued: They usually exist distinctly all the time. During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with 'distinctly felt'. But I do not agree if you mean 'the object for body-consciousness' is present all the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Satipatthana Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness > by The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw > The Wheel Publication No. 370/371 ISBN 955-24-0078-3 > > Htoo's comment: > > > I do not agree on 'thought formations are not real'. Tep, why do you > say they are not real? Is it because of our > > terminology? > > >What I know is 'thought formations' or 'mental fabrications' or 'citta- > sankhara' or '50 cetasikas' after leaving vedana and sanna > >cetasikas who are separate khandhas are all real. They are > paramattha dhamma. > > > Question: Why should they be not real? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Tep: It is true that citta-sankhara is a reality in the Paramattha-dhamma sense. Yes, according to the Abhidhamma books, sankhara khandha is a reality. However, I have been using vohara-sacca, a panatti, that has been used by every teacher of the Dhamma in the normal communication mode. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree 'vohara'. I already included that 'is that because of terminology?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Because of not knowing and not seeing the khandhas and ayatanas the way they really are, the resulting thought formation in a worldling is not to be trusted as a "truth", as they actually are deluded with defilements (including avijja). And because of that, I mean "not real" = not truthful, not actually happening. For example, a visible rupa(real) being seen by the eyes and what we think we're seeing (faked by our imaginations and labeling) are not the same. What we think we have seen is a mental fabrication: a labeled object (good, bad, beautiful, etc.) that is not the reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Thank you for the useful discussion. I hope you will also read the answers taken from Upasika Kee's article ("Reading the Mind") as well; it is a classic. Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma is for all. Dhamma is for those who take refuge in. With respect, Htoo Naing 41083 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep and Nina, Here's the link to the Satipatthana Sutta and Commentary: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Larry ------------------------- Nina: "Meanwhile, I found good material on the conditions for the bojjhangas: Soma Thera, Co. to the satipatthanasutta. Do you have it?" 41084 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Htoo, > Can all phalatthana puggala without jhanas or can all ariyas without > any jhanas practise phala-samapatti? Yes, Mahasi Sayadaw goes somewhat into detail about it. For sotapanna, most aren't even aware they achieved it so they don't try to go into phala-samapatti. Even while walking, they can enter phala-samapatti as samadhi improves "accidently". He talks about how one's strength in samadhi is the determining factor. Along with Visuddhimagga explanation on mastery of jhanas, I took it as a matter of practice in mastery of the mind. As you know, there are five kinds of mastery. Since they're so similar I believe it is the same training, just a difference in object. So one might argue an ariya who can achieve phala-samapatti with full mastery will have no trouble achieving jhana-samapatti. Or conversely a puthujjana who has previously mastered jhana-samapatti will have no trouble with phala-samapatti once they become an ariya. - kel 41085 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hey E(ric) - > Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And > between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. That is a great answer to my question! BTW, who was Nisargadatta Maharaj? Why did he say that? Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hey Tep, > > > Htoo, by the way, how can both 'all' and 'none' be true at the same > > time for each situation? > > Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And > between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. 41086 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:28pm Subject: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE FORMATIONS AGGREGATE] 131. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating.57 What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87). ------------------------------ Note 57. ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). 41087 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Kel, I found a passage that tells all phalatthana puggalas can attain phala-samapatti. You well explain on that. Yes, I have heard of that some even did not know that they achieve sotapatti magga nana and they may never practise or stay in sotapatti-phala-samapati as they do not know that they are sotapams. Sotapams are no doubt completely take refuge in triplegem and their saddha can never be shaken by any means. They may let their life but not their saddha in triplegem. This is because of total absence of vicikiccha cetasika and so vicikiccha citta. I have some points to discuss. Please see below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel wrote: Hi Htoo, > > Can all phalatthana puggala without jhanas or can all ariyas > without > > any jhanas practise phala-samapatti? Kel answered: Yes, Mahasi Sayadaw goes somewhat into detail about it. For sotapanna, most aren't even aware they achieved it so they don't try to go into phala-samapatti. Even while walking, they can enter phala-samapatti as samadhi improves "accidently". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. But I think samapatti needs to be defined. My questions: 1. Is it possible to arise a single phala citta? 2. If so can it be called as phala-samapatti? 3. How do you define phala-samapatti in terms of number of phala- javana citta? [kama javana usually takes 7 moments.] 4.How many moments are needed to call phala-samapatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel continued: He talks about how one's strength in samadhi is the determining factor. Along with Visuddhimagga explanation on mastery of jhanas, I took it as a matter of practice in mastery of the mind. As you know, there are five kinds of mastery. Since they're so similar I believe it is the same training, just a difference in object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Excuse me. Do you mean 'they' here for 'jhana and vipassana'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel continued: So one might argue an ariya who can achieve phala-samapatti with full mastery will have no trouble achieving jhana-samapatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I would say 'just mastery in phala-samapatti' is not equitable with mastery in jhana. Phala beings may stay in phala but they cannot stay in jhanas if they have not attained jhana. Questions: 1.Do arahats try to obtain previously unattained jhanas to obtain after they become arahats? 2.Do arahats who previously do not have abhinna try to obtain abhinna after they attain arahatta magga nana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kel continued: Or conversely a puthujjana who has previously mastered jhana- samapatti will have no trouble with phala-samapatti once they become an ariya. - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree completely this message. Nina said for phala-samapatti to happen jhana is a part and ariyas without jhana cannot do phala- samapatti. If I said wrong, please correct me Nina. It sounds right. I do not know. To be able to say such matter I will have to be an arahat without any jhanas. But I am not an ariya yet. So I do not know phala-samapatti can happen in beings without jhana. The logic may be this : phala javanas are great and very powerful. Jhana-samapatti happen without any interruption while in jhana- samapatti. Like this phala-samapatti do not have any interruption between phala cittas. Phala cittas can arise limitlessly while in phala-samapatti. They is why I ask you to define phala-samapatti. If it is right that 50 or 100 phala cittas can be called as phala-samapatti then sotapams who are walking may well attain phala-samapatti. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: 1.I have to overcome 1. Burmese language or Myanmar language 2. Pali language 3. Difficulty and depth of Dhamma 4. English language 5. Practical aspect of Dhamma 2. Nina, please correct me what I mentioned was wrong regarding your thought on phala-samapatti and jhana. 41088 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Vism.XIV,131 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE FORMATIONS AGGREGATE] 131. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating.57 What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87). ------------------------------ Note 57. ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). 41089 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness In a message dated 1/17/2005 2:31:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: My question is: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN THERAVADA ? “…because it is empty of self and what belongs to self that it is said, ‘ Empty is the world.’â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discoursesof the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1163) TG 41090 From: Andrew Levin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Didnt mean to take so long to reply, Sarah, I am still a little bit 'out of it' for personal reasons, I have not been able to continue studying ACM as I earlier was.. I hope I am still making sense and in one piece for the time being. > …. > >And I guess I > > would then ask you, since I am not that competant in Abhidharma, where > > does seeing the three characteristics fit into the bigger picture of > > things? Is it that they are understood initially only superficially, > > but later, near the end of the path, impressed deeply upon the mind? > … > S: Yes. Any understanding has to develop from the superficial to the deep. > It is by firstly undersgtanding namas and rupas as dhammas only and as > distinct from each other, that deeper understanding, such as the > impermanence of such dhammas, can later develop. > …. > > If it is motivated by an idea of self, it still seems OK to me as it > > will bring one to view the true nature of realities, and eventually > > get past self-belief (that the insight knowledges arise from the four > > foundations of mindfulness was only made clear to me later, this was a > > major stumbling block for me). > … > S: Moments with self view (wrong view) will not bring any right view of > realities. So we have to distinguish between the two from the beginning. So is self view necessarily wrong view, that is, it comprises wrong view with whatever type of citta there is? If so I still think we can practise this as a psycho-physical organism, that is, without wrong view, the factors then being, what degree of different qualities can be cultivated or brought into being - and which cannot, but depend on unchangeable conditions (I would say sati is one we can cultivate) > ….. > > So why did the Buddha even tell his disciples to practise these four > > foundations of mindfulness in such a specific manner for such a > > specific period of time? The practise outlined will clearly lead to > > whatever is necessary for liberating the mind. > … > S: The Buddha described all realities, all causes and results. IF > awareness of realities is developed with right understanding, then it will > lead to liberation. This is not the same as saying `Self, do it!' (See Ken > H's recent comments to Kel on the same theme: "In this Dhamma there is no > self who practices, there are only disinterested, momentary conditioned > phenomena. Learning about nama and rupa without worrying about `my' nama > and `my' rupa is the way to go.") He also described on the conventional level how a person, could practise these exercises geared towards understanding, as a whole, certainly not to note each arising phenomenon as 'mine,' but it seems that a person could develop mindfulness and so on, of these realities, and attend to them properly, that is, even as their belief of 'self' seemed to decrease. The argument is, I suppose, that one can work from a 'control center' (speicifcally, as one, as a person) even if there is no special belief that the work or the worked on is 'self,' to develop the qualities needed to untie the mind from what keeps it in bondage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're trying to have view of one nama or rupa at a time, you still think of yourself as a 'person,' or 'Sarah Abbott' that goes through day to day recognizing one nama, one rupa. Similarly I think I can get to understand how the four foundations of mindfulness are properly practised, and practise them. I don't see why this can't be practised with 'right view' that there is no self if this is to be understood. Maybe you could describe exactly what wrong view of self is, if you still disagree. > … > S:>>The most > > > important aspect of development or practice is the understanding and > > > eradication of the wrong idea of self. > > > A:> Isn't that only one of the ten fetters to be abandoned? Why should it > > be given highest priority? > … > S: Yes, but self-view (and other wrong views) have to be eradicated > first. That's why it's only a sotapanna that keeps the precepts perfectly, > doesn't follow wrong practices and so on. OK, now talk to me on a level of how you start out with wrong view of self, what this is superficially at the top level, and how you get down to eliminating it as a fetter completely. > > "And here wrong-view clinging and so on are abandoned first because they > are eliminated by the path of StreamEntry; sense-desire clinging is > abandoned later because it is eliminated by the path of Arahatship. This > is the order of their abandoning…" Dispeller 850 > … > > And even if not, can't we start with wrong view of self to practise > > what will show is there is no self?? > …. > S: Wrong view and self view based moments of practice will never see > they're wrong. It is only right view that will see it. So that's why > there has to be awareness of wrong view and self view when they arise. OK. > …. > > Hearing being a khandha where khanda == skhandhas == five aggregates? > > Certainly it's something that can be contemplated but I don't see > > hearing being one- > …. > S: Hearing is a citta (consciousness). Citta here is a synonym for vinnana > as in vinnana khandha. So hearing, seeing and all other cittas are > included in vinnana khandha. I still don't understand. What is vinnana then? I was under the impression the skhandhas are the five aggregates including material form, perceptions, feelings, volition, and mental formations like emotions and cognition. Is it that hearing-consciousness is part of mental formations? That I could understand. > …. > S:> > Actually, citta `cognizes' an object at every instant, whether or > not > > > there is any awareness. > A:> OK. This is kind of deep. I don't understand how citta can know other > > citta (:: kind of shaky, still having to wait for an occasion when he > > can go through CH I of CMA again before even touching II ::) > … > S: Yes, it is deep. Remember citta arises at every single moment and that > anything (reality or concept) is experienced by it. So when the object is > not a sound or visible object or other sense object experienced through a > sense door, the object can also be a nama - a citta, a cetasika or even > nibbana if conditions are right as well as concepts when we think. Ooh. Makes sense. So citta is the object of citta at moments where there is a lack of hearing, seeing, etc, and the consciousness that adverts it to the appropriate sense door. > > A citta with awareness can only be aware of another citta in the mind-door > process and only that citta which has just fallen away and is still > `fresh'. We call it the present reality still. Don't get hung up on this > for now. It's enough to know that any reality can be the object of > awareness and this can be proved when there is awareness of seeing or > thinking, for example. Man, it's been so long since I've had the sati to be aware of thinking. That kind of sati required hours a day of meditation. I still can use the exercise of 'labeling' - (it would be good if someone could describe to me the point of labeling and its drawbacks compared to other methods towards realization that can be used in its place) thoughts, that is, 'thinking, thinking,' but bare awareness of thoughts is history as far as I'm concerned. Need more sati. > …. > > Another thing. How are realities to be 'known.' It is through > > mindfulness, through understanding, or what? > … > S: By being aware of their characteristics when they are experienced as in > the example I just gave. Awareness is aware of seeing consciousness and > understanding understands it at that moment. It's very important to > understand the characteristic of awareness, otherwise we'll be forever > taking a conventional idea of mindfulness or watching or labeling for > being awareness. Man, I am all for non-conceptual awareness. It's been what is lacking in my life for over a year now. Now what is the characteristic of awareness, what conditions it? I've been able to get a little awareness back with reading a book stating it's necessary to have for mindfulness & full awareness (obviously..), and another book on cultivating mindfulness, but still not at the levels I had when I was *reallY* cultivating sati. > …. > >Because I have had an > > occasion of just slowing things down when it appeared that some of the > > elements and sense bases were coming into view (stuff described in MN > > 8 on right view) but I wouldnt say I had mindfulness. Would that > > still be good? > … > S: It's impossible to slow down cittas, cetasikas and rupas. If one tries > in order to have awareness or mindfulness, this would be an example of > wrong practice as I see it. Not understanding conditioned dhammas. > > As far as I understand, this line of questioning of yours in your last > post is exactly on the right track. I look forward to more. > Well, I've tried (to cultivate it in one session), and had it manifest itself throughout the day, but I'm not sure of this point. It seems like I could have had more knowledge or mindfulness of the parts of the 'chariot' as its functions as a whole began to slow down. But maybe you are right? Peace, A.L. > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 41091 From: Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Nina, What's the difference between asayanusaya and ayuhana? Larry 41092 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi, Larry - You're very good! Thank you for the link to the article by Soma Thera: it will be used as a reference for my discussion with Nina. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep and Nina, > > Here's the link to the Satipatthana Sutta and Commentary: > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Larry > ------------------------- > Nina: "Meanwhile, I found good material on the conditions for the > bojjhangas: Soma Thera, Co. to the satipatthanasutta. Do you have it?" 41093 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Htoo, > they may never practise or stay in sotapatti-phala-samapati as they > do not know that they are sotapams. Sotapams are no doubt completely > take refuge in triplegem and their saddha can never be shaken by any > means. They may let their life but not their saddha in triplegem. > This is because of total absence of vicikiccha cetasika and so > vicikiccha citta. Kel: yes, of course. It doesn't really matter if they can stay in phala-samapati or not. This is merely a technical discussion. > 1. Is it possible to arise a single phala citta? > 2. If so can it be called as phala-samapatti? > 3. How do you define phala-samapatti in terms of number of phala- > javana citta? [kama javana usually takes 7 moments.] > 4.How many moments are needed to call phala-samapatti? > ------------------------------------------------------------- kel: 1 is no and so 2 is no. I think if we look at the moments in the vithi's, it'll be clear. Reference your dhamma thread 233, 40996. Minimum for normal is: BBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBB Minium for intelligent is: BBBMUAGPhPhPhPhBBB We drop Parikamma and since the total needs to be 7, add one more Ph. As you said javanas needs to be 7. So that's basically a phala- samapatti by definition, not my own. As you can see, the skilled ariyan will be able to extend Ph to long time and end by EXACTLY the amount they want. Unskilled one might be doing this as an example: BBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBBBBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBBBBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBBBBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBB > As you know, there are five kinds of mastery. Since they're so > similar I believe it is the same training, just a difference in > object. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Excuse me. Do you mean 'they' here for 'jhana and vipassana'? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- kel: they = jhana-samapatti and phala-samapatti. Look at the two vithis, they're the same. Except for jhana, loka object or phala, lokuttara object. Also if you look at magga and phala vithis, they're the same. We just call the first one magga and the rest phala. > Htoo: > > Here I would say 'just mastery in phala-samapatti' is not equitable > with mastery in jhana. Phala beings may stay in phala but they cannot > stay in jhanas if they have not attained jhana. Kel: Being able to stay absorbed is the same skill. It has nothing to do with if they can acquire the required object. Once the main is without much or any defilements, I imagine samadhi wouldn't be that hard. What's there to suppress and preventing nimitas from arising for arahats? > 1.Do arahats try to obtain previously unattained jhanas to obtain > after they become arahats? kel: I read some that they do but I cannot give exact reference. If you think about it, dry-insight arahat's work is not complete. They are content but they cannot realize nibbana right here and now, still have this current body dukkha. That's why they enter niroda- samapatti. Plus just having the jhanas doesn't equal mastery of different kasinas/dhatus and/or abhinnas. You need to practice with everything in forward and backwards order. Even one who practice jhanas could've achieved 5th jhana by using one object. Vis. IV 135, footnote 39. Some versions of the story adds that other bikkhus who all possesses the powers resolve to practice more. At least that's what my memory says :) > 2.Do arahats who previously do not have abhinna try to obtain abhinna > after they attain arahatta magga nana? Kel: same reasoning as above would apply I think. Not every arahat become with one complete superpowers like the main bikkhus along with magga-citta. > Htoo: > > I agree completely this message. Nina said for phala-samapatti to > happen jhana is a part and ariyas without jhana cannot do phala- > samapatti. If I said wrong, please correct me Nina. Kel: I think Mahasi sayadaw's stance is clearly different from that. I'll give you the book name if you want though I'd have to find it around the house. > So I do not know phala-samapatti can happen in beings without jhana. kel: neither do it :P > 1. Burmese language or Myanmar language Kel: It is always easier to discuss Dhamma in Burmese :) - kel 41094 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Actually first time I had heard much about aasaya - when I listened to the tape. Not a correction though as ayuhana means accumulation/accumulating. robk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Rob and Sarah (and Azita), > > Thanks for the corrections. > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I > > heard > > > K.Sujin saying, I believe. > > > > > > PTS dict says similar in derivation to anusaya and semantically > > related. > > > Inclination etc; often combined and compared with anusaya > > (inclination, > > > hankering, disposition)see Vbh 340 and other refs given. When it is > > > combined with anusaya, I believe aasaya refers to only good latent > > > tendencies. > 41095 From: mnease Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. Thanks Robert, Right--so many of these synonyms or near-synonyms seem to have different meanings depending on context--method, classification etc.--e.g. Htoo's recent moha vs. avijja, which I found very interesting. So helpful to have friends with knowledge of abhidhamma AND Paali to help to sort these out. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. > > Actually first time I had heard much about aasaya - when I listened > to the tape. Not a correction though as ayuhana means > accumulation/accumulating. > robk > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > > Hi Rob and Sarah (and Azita), > > > > Thanks for the corrections. > > > > mike 41096 From: seisen_au Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) Hi Sarah, Htoo, Nina and All Thanks for your posts, they have been very helpful. I will do some more study on 'decisive support condition' and get back to you if/when i have any more questions regarding avijja paccaya kusala sankhara. Thanks Steve 41097 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 0:17am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 100- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** As we have seen, cetanå which is kusala kamma or akusala kamma can produce vipåka. Time and again there are pleasant or unpleasant experiences through the senses and these are vipåkacittas: we see, hear, smell, taste or experience through the bodysense pleasant or unpleasant objects. We may know in theory that vipåkacittas are cittas which are result, different from kusala cittas and akusala cittas, but theoretical knowledge is not enough. We should learn to distinguish different types of citta when they appear. Each situation in life consists of many different moments which arise because of different types of conditions. For example, when we hurt ourselves because of an accident, there is an unpleasant experience through the bodysense which is vipåka, but the moments of vipåka fall away immediately and very shortly afterwards aversion is bound to arise. It is difficult to distinguish the moment of vipåka from the moment of akusala citta; cittas succeed one another very rapidly. When we think: 'This is vipåka', the moments of vipåka have fallen away already, and the cittas which think are either kusala or akusala. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41098 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Dear Howard, Kel, TG (and all) My question was: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD "EMPTINESS" IN THERAVADA ? Although your answers (in # 41077, # 41048 and # 41089) were not exactly the same, it's more clear to me. >> In Mahayana "sunyata" is very important, in some traditions the most important principle. Kel: I think it's just a preference a particular tradition has acquired. > In Burma too some really like anicca and some anatta. > There's even some that contemplate dukkha of food and > body as an example. Some DSG members are rather into anatta :) > And then one gets into explaining and expounding everything based on that preference. Joop: That sounds as a good explanation to me. There is some difference between you (and some other DSG members) and me: You are coming from Burma, from a buddhist tradition; I am living in a non-buddhist culture in Western Europe, converted myself, and had in that conversion a lot of traditions and aspects of traditions from which I could choose. Perhaps not a really free choice, my personality does play a role in it. I never had a big ego so the dichotomy atta - anatta doesn't play an important role in my contemplations. So when you say "it's just a preference a particular tradition has acquired", I say: for somebody raised in a non-buddhist tradition it's a personel preference, with the dangers of the unconscious motives of that choice. To make a unscientific remark: people fighting against their strong ego prefer anatta aspects of emptiness, people fighting against a need of ontology prefer anicca aspects of emptiness. So to 'empty of self' as TG quotes, I say: of course; but also 'empty of not-self' ? "He (Avalokitesvara) perceived that all five skandhas are empty" (Heart Sutra). Howard, you are right in pointing to the risk of my "reification of emptiness" and I will read the suttus you mentioned (Uraga Sutta and Kaccayanagotta Sutta) Metta Joop 41099 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:45am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Kel, Thanks for your kind explanation and replies. Here is just a few points and this is like MCQ or Quiz. > > 1. Is it possible to arise a single phala citta? > > 2. If so can it be called as phala-samapatti? > > 3. How do you define phala-samapatti in terms of number of phala- > > javana citta? [kama javana usually takes 7 moments.] > > 4.How many moments are needed to call phala-samapatti? ------------------------------------------------------------- kel: 1 is no and so 2 is no. I think if we look at the moments in the vithi's, it'll be clear. Reference your dhamma thread 233, 40996. Minimum for normal is: BBBMPUAGPhPhPhBBB Minium for intelligent is: BBBMUAGPhPhPhPhBBB ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1 can be yes. That is 'It is possible to arise a single phala citta'. This can be seen when arahats exit from nirodha-samapatti. 1stJ.B.2J.B.3.B.4.B.1stAJ.B.2AJ.B.3AJ.B.Adhi.NN__Nirodha-samapatti___- -- ____Nirodha-samapatti____|Phala.BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. There is a single phala citta at the exit from nirodha-samapatti. Generally the answer to 1 is no, I accept. 2 is obviously no. Because that single phala citta is not like the vithi you explained. Again if one argues that 'is it reaching to phala?', it may still be yes even though it is not in accord with phala-samapatti and it is just part of nirodha-samapatti. Your answer 3 is OK. Answer 4 says for Mandha-pannaka 3 phala cittas and for Tikkha-pannaka 4 phala cittas are required. According to your example it is possible to attain phala-samapatti in non-jhanalabhis. That means 4 phala cittas in a vithi vara then followed by a few bhavanga cittas and again another phala vithi vara and so on. So it is obvious that they cannot apply phala as in case of jhana- samapatti. That is BBBMPUAGPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP B = bhavanga citta M = manodvaravajjana citta P = parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta ( 1st P ) U = upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta A = anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta G = gotrabhu lineage-changing kamavacara mahakusala citta P = phala citta ( 2nd and later P's ) So it is I think as you said this is just technical. By such definition of 'uninterruptedness' Those arahats who do not have jhana cannot practise phala-samapatti. Actually they have done their job and they do not need to worry the matter of phala-samapatti. By definition based on 'touching' 'reaching' 'being in a state' all 4 ariyas who do not have any rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas can stay in phala-samapatti. I accept that all these are just technical. By definition based on uninterruptedness there are 3 samapattis and I have discussed them in Dhamma Threads. They are 1. jhana-samapatti BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ---> 2. phala-samapatti BBBMPUAGPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP---> 3. nirodha-samapatti KJ.B.1RJ.B.2RJ.B.3RJ.B.4RJ.B.1AJ.B.2AJ.b.3AJ.B.Adh. ...Adh.NN|___________--->_____________________________|PBBBBBBBBBBBB In all these 3 samapatti ' ---> ' indicate 'uninterruptedness and unlimited'. In the first that is in jhana-samapatti the uninterruptedness is 'of jhana citta' and in the 2nd that is phala-samapatti it is 'of phala citta' and in 3rd samapatti or nirodha-samapatti it is of 'voidness of namakkhandhas'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Nina I think you are right. 41100 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 96- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (h) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Htoo, Nina and All > Thanks for your posts, they have been very helpful. I will do some > more study on 'decisive support condition' and get back to you > if/when i have any more questions regarding avijja paccaya kusala > sankhara. > > Thanks > Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Steve, I have been composing discussions on patthana dhamma at my geocities web site. I have already announced it. The site is www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html for page 1 and patthana2.html for page 2 and so on. Page 63 is ready to serve there. So far, hetu paccaya or 'root condition', arammana paccaya or 'object condition', adhipati paccaya or 'predominance condition', anantara paccaya or 'proximity condition, and currently samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' are being discussed. Upanissaya paccaya or 'decisive support condition' which is 9th in the 24 paccayas will be discussing later. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41101 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (238) Dear Dhamma Friends, Asannisatta are rupa brahma. Rupa here means 'physical materials' and it is fine materials in that fine material realm called brahma. Brahmas are a kind of deva or celestial beings. There are 6 simple deva realms, 16 fine-material deva realms or rupa brahma realms, and 4 immaterial realms or 4 immaterial deva realms or 4 immaterail brahma realm. Among them 'asanniattas' are breahm in rupa brahma realm. It is 4th jhana bhumi. Asannisatta is made up of 'asanni' and 'satta'. Satta means 'being'. Sanna means perception. Asanna means 'without perception'. Asanni are those who do not have sanna. Vada mean philosophy. Vadi means philosopher. Vada is inanimate or abstract thing. Vadi is being who holds vada. Like this asanni are beings who hold asanna. This means that they do not have any sanna or perception. They do not have any citta, cetasikas and so there is no nama dhamma. They are born with rupa-patisandhi and they stay as long as they are living with that rupa-bhavanga and they die with rupa-cuti. There is no citta at all through out their life. What will be marana-asanna-javana vithi vara in case of asannisatta- to-be? As asannisattas are 4th rupa jhana bhumi dwellers their immediate past life marana-asanna-javana vithi vara will be that of 4th rupa jhana. When in that life they found that sanna is the chief that leads them to do akusala and then suffering. So they are so timid and afraid of sanna or perception. They repeatedly practise their 4th rupa jhana with a special intention that sanna should not arise. Their intention made them not thinking much and so sanna become so subtle that it is a bit inapparent. Because of their wish and because of the power of the 4th rupa jhana they were able to drop the sanna out in the last javana of previous life. Because of this very strong cause as soon as cuti-citta arise they all are reborn as asannisatta with rupa-patisandhi. There do not arise any citta and any sanna at all till rupa-cuti happens. Marana-asanna-javana vithi vara would be like this. BBB..MPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJBBB BB..BBBMJJJJJJJTT[contemplating on sanna as dispassionate]BBBBBBBBBBB BB..BBBMPUAG4RJC|Asannisatta rupa-patisandhi_rupa-bhavanga_________--- -______rupa-bhavanga_______rupa-cuti|PBBBBBBBBBBB JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ = Jhana-samapatti BBBMJJJJJJJTT = contemplating dispassionating on sanna (kama-javana) BB..BBBMPUAG4RJC= marana-asanna-javana vithi vara 4RJ = 4th rupa jhana without or indistinct sanna[neither-present-nor- absent] So there are 5 javana cittas. 1. Parikamma 2. Upacara 3. Anuloma 4. Gotrabhu 5. 4th Rupa Jhana citta with indistinct sanna[NPNA] C is cuti citta of that past life. Because of this marana-asanna- javana 4th rupa jhana citta with NPNA after cuti there has to arise a body without any perception. This does happen because of very powerful 4th rupa jhana. Actually this realm is the top of all rupa jhana leaving after 5 pure abode or 5 suddha-vasa brahma bhumis. As they do not have any sanna they do not have to suffer anything while they are in that realm. But all Buddhists do not like that realm as it lives long without any citta or nama dhamma and so it is totally impossible to learn Dhamma whenever a Buddha arises when in that realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41102 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. Dear Htoo and Tep, I try to add something about D.O. and this is also connected with Tep's Q. whether it is sufficient to understand the D.O, to become a sotapanna. Kelvin answered this, but I could add a few things. op 18-01-2005 00:29 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > What is moment to moment D.O? Does that exist in teaching? If yes, > what about of arahats? N: Included in the D.O, are the three vattas or rounds: the round of kamma, of vipaka and of defilements. These rounds turn just now. So long as we have not eradicated ignorance, we commit kusala kamma and akusala kamma and these produce vipaka, in the form of rebirth and also during life, in the form of sense-cognitions. On account of desirable and undesirable objects experienced through the senses, defilements arise and these motivate kamma again. Thus the three orunds turn on and on. There are different ways of viewing the D.O. , see the following. I can quote part of B.B.'s article on D.O.: The arahat is freed from the cycle. Tep's remark whether it is just sufficient to understand D.O. in order to become a sotapanna: For us worldlings the links of the D.O. are merely names, we have not realized the true nature of dhammas. All stages of insight up to enlightenment have to be realized in order to understand the true maening of D.O. For instance, we do not realize what seeing is. Seeing is vipakacitta, it is pure nama, not mixed with rupa. We confuse seeing and visible object. Although they are together they have different characteristics, and only sati sampajañña can realize these one at a time. At the second stage of tender insight there is a growing understanding of kamma and vipaka, dhammas are seen as conditioned realities. The D.O. is also an explanation of the second and third noble Truth: clinging (the cause of dukkha) and the cessation of dukkha. The sotapanna has clearly understood the four noble Truths. Thus, all stages of insight knowledge have to be realized before the D.O. can be truly understood. Nina. 41103 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Howard's suttas, no 1,2. Hi Howard, you always have a good choice of suttas, thank you for sharing. This is what I like. I shall tell you what message I get from this sutta. And what is the message you get? ================ Gradual Sayings (II, i, 5) 'Two things, monks, I have realized: to be discontented in good states'etc, down to 'That is how ye must train yourselves, monks' at the In BB's transl, he gives it the title 'Unremitting Efort'. --- The Buddha speaks about not shrinking back from the struggle and repeats the words he spoke when sitting under the Bodhi Tree: 'Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and dry up...' He would not go away until he had realized omniscience. This took a supreme effort. Evenso should the monks struggle on and strive for the attainment of arahatship. The goal of monkhood is arahatship. I shall now give a summary of the Co: The Buddha explained two things (as in the sutta): not to be contented with kusala dhammas and not to shrink back from the struggle. As to the first, he would not be satisfied with kusala dhammas such as the nimitta in jhana or the image of illumination (obhasa, which one may have at the beginning of the development of insight). He would not be satisfied so long as he had not attained arahatship. N: People may develop different kinds of kusala, even jhana, but kusala alone cannot lead us out of the cycle of birth and death. Only fully developed pañña of the level of arahatship can lead us out of the cycle. The second thing the Buddha explained is not being tired of the struggle, not being disheartened, not shrinking back. He wanted to reach omniscience. The Buddha showed the strength of understanding, the striving of understanding, the perseverance of understanding. N: We see that the energy or effort is not without understanding, it is together with understanding. There are four factors which show the utmost effort of a strong man: holding out until the withering of skin, sinews, bone, and the drying up of flesh and blood. This is steadfast effort. This is the means for the Buddha to realize awakening when he was seated under the Bodhi Tree. The Buddha realized awakening by not being neglectful of sati. Bodhi, awakening, denotes the wisdom of the four Paths and omniscience. The Buddha won the incomparable freedom from slavery, anuttara yoga khema. This is the awakening. The fruition of the arahat and nibbana can be realized by not being neglectful. The Buddha exhorted the monks and said that the fruition of the ariyans is the highest goal of the divine life (brahmacariya, the monk's life). N: it is actually the fruition of the arahat. This can be realized by the highest pañña. The effort that does not shrink back is of great benefit. **** Remark: The lay person cannot sit until his flesh and skin withers, but this sutta can be a reminder not to be neglectful and not to become disheartened. No discouragement, even though the development of pañña takes aeons, even though progress is not always noticeable. The message contained in this sutta: it shows the Buddha's great compassion. For aeons he strove and no burden was too heavy for him. He strove with unremitting energy, courage, perseverance and utmost patience to realize Buddhahood so that he could teach Dhamma to devas and mankind. His energy was always energy for the development of pañña at the present moment. As we read in the Co.: this is . Understanding of all dhammas appearing one at a time through the six doors. It takes patience and courage to be aware of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound and all the dhammas that appear. Such understanding can develop to final liberation. This sutta reminds us not to be neglectful and be aware now of whatever appears through the six doors, one at a time. This message fits with the following sutta: Grad. (II, ii, 9) The Buddha says: .'Abandon evil. It can be done.' The Co only states that the meaning of this sutta is clear. This sutta is encouraging. It is possible to eradicate defilements by pañña that is developed at this very moment. It can be done and we have to begin now. Nina. 41104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, good you ask. aayuhaana is the accumulation of kamma that produces result. The Tiika to Vis. 131 deals with it. Thus, good and bad deeds produce result by way of kamma-condition. The result can be vipaakacittas in the form of rebirth-consciousness and sense-impressions in the course of life, and also kamma produced ruupa. asayanusaya: these are good and bad qualities that have been accumulated and can be the condition for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas by way of natural strong dependence-condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). Thus, we have to differentiate these two types of conditions. Natural strong dependence-condition is very wide, by this way kusala can condition akusala, or vipaka, and akusala can condition kusala or vipaka. In fact, when a partical kamma produces vipaka, also natural strong dependence-condition operates. P.S. Thanks for the link to Soma, very helpful. op 18-01-2005 02:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What's the difference between asayanusaya and ayuhana? 41105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo and Kel, I feel somewhat lost here. It is pañña that realizes sotapatti magga, and pañña is not ignorance. Nina. op 18-01-2005 02:30 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Yes, I have heard of that > some even did not know that they achieve sotapatti magga nana and > they may never practise or stay in sotapatti-phala-samapati as they > do not know that they are sotapams. 41106 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma / A question about Emptiness Hi Howard, yes, you formulated it well. As to nibbana: this is anatta, non self, it is devoid of self. But to me all these notions are mere names since I have not realized the truth directly. Nina. op 18-01-2005 00:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > (The emptiness of nibbana is something else, however, and I'm not very sure > what exactly. 41107 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:53am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hey Tep, > > Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And > > between the two my life flows. --Nisargadatta Maharaj. > > That is a great answer to my question! > > BTW, who was Nisargadatta Maharaj? Why did he say that? http://www.nisargadatta.net/ http://www.nonduality.com/nisarga.htm He is describing his middle way between All and Nothing. The first statement relates to no-self the second to compassion and the third to life itself as the middle way. PEACE E 41108 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:31am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 c Pilgrimage India 2 c We are absorbed in the images and details of things, but at least we can know that this is thinking, not seeing. Without the Buddha's teaching we would be ignorant of realities. It is of no use trying to be aware of seeing, we cannot direct the arising of sati or select any object of awareness. Lodewijk and I visited a Tibetan monastery in Sikkim and looked at a masterpiece of sculpture which took five years to be completed. We walked around it and saw many colourfull details of gods, devils, humans and also of a corpse. It was only visible object or colour that impinged on the eyesense, and this is just a reality. On account of what we see we are absorbed in the images and the details. Lodewijk asked me why I say that it is ³just² visible object. I answered: ³Because it is nothing else but visible object, just that.² This example shows that the latent tendencies of ignorance and sense desire condition the arising of akusala cittas time and again. Since the latent tendencies are so deeply rooted, they cannot be eradicated immediately. Right understanding has to be developed life after life so that enlightenment can be attained and the latent tendencies can be eradicated stage by stage. Our accumulated lobha, attachment, and wrong view, ditthi, cause us to cling to wrong practice. We try to find ways and means to hasten the development of paññå, but since we have accumulated ignorance of realities for aeons this is impossible. ***** Nina 41109 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Htoo, I see, you gave me some trick questions. I thought you were asking in the context of phala-samapatti only. > 1 can be yes. That is 'It is possible to arise a single phala citta'. > > This can be seen when arahats exit from nirodha-samapatti. > > 1stJ.B.2J.B.3.B.4.B.1stAJ.B.2AJ.B.3AJ.B.Adhi.NN__Nirodha- samapatti___- > -- > > ____Nirodha- samapatti____|Phala.BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB. > > There is a single phala citta at the exit from nirodha-samapatti. > > Generally the answer to 1 is no, I accept. > > phala?', it may still be yes even though it is not in accord with > phala-samapatti and it is just part of nirodha-samapatti. kel: let's understand the context exactly here. Actual nirodha- samapatti is this as you said in dhamma thread 235, 41019 BMPUAGNN_____________ApBBB You'll see there's 6 javana cittas before nirodha, thus necessitating a need for 7th as phala after nirodha. This is just a filler citta to me, the goal for phala-samapatti is phala itself which is different goal from nirodha-samapatti. > So it is I think as you said this is just technical. By such > definition of 'uninterruptedness' > > Those arahats who do not have jhana cannot practise phala- samapatti. > Actually they have done their job and they do not need to worry the > matter of phala-samapatti. Kel: my point was exactly the opposite. Unskilled person will have consecutive vithis when trying to reach phala-samapatti. Skilled person will be able to remain in ONE phala-samapatti which long absorption period. AND able to rise from it exactly at the predetermined time in two ways: end phala and start bhavanga. There's a reason why those two were separated out. > In all these 3 samapatti ' ---> ' indicate 'uninterruptedness and > unlimited'. > > In the first that is in jhana-samapatti the uninterruptedness is 'of > jhana citta' and in the 2nd that is phala-samapatti it is 'of phala > citta' and in 3rd samapatti or nirodha-samapatti it is of 'voidness > of namakkhandhas'. Kel: you're describing the end result and nothing about the training that allows one to achieve samapatti with uninterruptedness and unlimited qualities. It's fine if you want to "reserve" the word samapatti for such an ability. Regardless, there'll still be fits and start with consecutive vithis entering in and out of phala while one is still practicing. Just like some arahats keep ascetics practices, I don't see why they wouldn't keep up their mental exercise for samapattis. It is the same as samatha exercise to become really good at it. Mahasi sayadaw described how to do it with vipassana in his books. - kel 41110 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Nina, This is just what we're taught. As you know magga-vithi is very fast and you only experience nibbana for 3 cittas. So potentially one could miss it easily or not realize exactly what has happened. We're encouraged to do self-examining to see if all proper defilements been rooted out as the best way to see if we have achieved sotapatti or not. There are many and similar experiences in meditation to magga-vithi that makes it hard to tell apart. It's not that there's ignorance, we just don't have a teacher who can read our minds and give us a certificate. - kel wrote: > Dear Htoo and Kel, > I feel somewhat lost here. It is pañña that realizes sotapatti magga, and > pañña is not ignorance. > Nina. 41111 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:57pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo Dear Htoo - The question you asked me was about body impression, a contact or, equivalently, a sense of touch (phassa) during a siting meditation, that Mahasi Sayadaw described in his famous article, "Satipatthana Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness". Mahasi wrote: > "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can > note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever > present. They usually exist distinctly all the time. > During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness > or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. > Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture > and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " Your question was : > Htoo: I agree with 'distinctly felt'. But I do not agree if you > mean 'the object for body-consciousness' is present all the time. Well, during the sitting meditation session the "body impressions" are "ever present", that's what he wrote. The meditator certainly feels stiffness in the legs, knees and his lower back (even after 10 minutes or so). The sensation of hardness can also come from the contact with the floor. Of course the stiffness and sensation of hardness are present "all the time" while the meditator is sitting. I hope my answer makes sense. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > More discussion on this thread 'test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma'. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 41112 From: Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Nina, Ayuhana is the accumulation of kamma that will definitely produce a particular result (vipaka) sometime in the future. Is that right? I thought you said sometime back that accumlations (ayuhana?) condition javana cittas. Asayanusaya are tendencies, kusala and akusala, also accumulated, that _may_ condition a javana citta. Correct? Larry 41113 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a./Mike Dear Mike, thanks for the Pali dic. link below, it is quite extensive, and the 'aayuuhana'. I have just spent about a 'forever' cruising around different sites springing off from the dic. link. What a jungle of 'Buddha' information there is. As I stated before, I can barely manage what comes thro dsg. I thank you for your help. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > I think you're looking for 'aayuuhana'. > > By the way, while I was casting about for this I rediscovered a nice site > with a good Paali dictionary: > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/ > > You need some fonts for this which are downloadable from the same page. > > Cheers! > > mik > 41114 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 2 a. dear Sarah and Robk, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Mike & Azita, > > > > Aasaya is used to cover all latent tendencies - good and bad as I > heard > > K.Sujin saying, I believe. ...snip... > ======= > Dear Azita, > This tape talks about aasaya and anusaya > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/india2004/A_BodhGaya_06.mp3 > Robert Azita: Thanks Sarah and Rob. I have listened to this section of the disc and haven't heard this yet, but that's not saying its not there!!!! Sometimes when listening, I'm not really 'listening' at all. My thinking is far away from the sound, and I realise I haven't heard a word. Maybe that's the characteristic of Moha. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 41115 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:47pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 101 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (m) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** There are different types of conditions for the cittas which arise. The akusala cittas and kusala cittas are conditioned by the accumulated tendencies to kusala and akusala, whereas the experience of a pleasant or unpleasant object through one of the senses such as seeing or hearing is vipåka, which is conditioned by kamma. Cetanå is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. It is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. The word saòkhåra has different meanings, depending on the context in which it is used. The word "saòkhåra" used in the context of the Dependant Origination, means "kamma-formation". Cetanå as a link in the Dependant Origination is kamma-formation, kamma which is capable of producing vipåka so that the cycle of birth and death continues. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41116 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Dear Htoo, Chris, Ken H & All, I really find the Uraga Jataka (354) very inspiring. Thank you for recounting it Htoo in your kind note to Ken H and for the fuller account you gave, Chris. --- Christine Forsyth wrote: ... > "The Bodhisattva was a farmer in a former life as mentioned in the > Uraga Jataka. Rustic though he was, he practiced mindfulness on > death to perfection. He had trained himself to think every now and > then "Death can at any moment come to us." .... S: As I have the text open, let me add a little more for further reflection. From the introduction: " 'Man quits his mortal frame,' etc. This story the Master, while dwelling at Jetavana, told concerning a landowner whose son had died. The introductory story is just the same as that of the man who lost both his wife and father. Here too the Master in the same way went to the man's house, and after saluting him as he was seated, asked him saying, "Pray, Sir, are you grieving?" And on his replying, "Yes, Reverend Sir, ever since my son's death I grieve," he said, "Sir, verily that which is subject to dissolution is dissolved, and that which is subject to destruction is destroyed, and this happens not to one man only, nor in one village merely, but in countless spheres, and in the three modes of existence, there is no creature that is not subject to death, nor is there any existing thing that is capable of abiding in the same condition. All beings are subject to death, and all compounds are subject to dissolution. But sages of old, when they lost a son, said, 'that which is subject to destruction is destroye,' and grieved not." And hereupon at the man's request he related a story of the past." ***** From the story, when the mother received the message from her husband to only prepare food for one, she understood her son was dead. I'd like to add the following detail which is so poignant, I find: "Then she understood that her son was dead. But she did not so much as tremble. Thus showing perfect self-control, and wearing white garments and with perfumes and flowers in her hand, she bade them bring food, and accompanied the other members of the family to the field. But no one of them all either shed a tear or made lamentation. The Bodhisatta, still sitting in the shade where the youth lay, ate his food. And when his meal was finished, they all took up fire-wood and lifting the body on to the funeral pile, they made offerings of perfumes and flowers, and then set fire to it. But not a single tear was shed by any one. All were dwelling on the thought of death. Such was the efficacy of their virtue that the throne of Sakka manifested signs of heat. Sakka said, 'who, I wonder, is anxious to bring me down from my throne?' And on reflection he discovered that the heat was due to the force of virtue existing in these people, and being highly pleased he said, "I must go to them and utter a loud cry of exultation like the roaring of a lion, and immediately afterwards fill their dwelling place with the seven treasures." ***** He then visits them and they give the answers already quoted by Chris. At the conclusion, he filled their house 'with countless wealth'. "The Master having finished his exposition of the Law, declared the Truths and identified the Birth:- At the conclusion of the Truths the landowner attained the fruit of the First Path:- 'At that time Khujjuttara was the female slave, Uppalavanna the daughter, Rahula the son, Khema the mother, and I myself was the brahmin." Thank you all again for the inspiring posts about this Jataka. Metta, Sarah ======== 41117 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Ayuhana is the accumulation of kamma that will definitely produce a > particular result (vipaka) sometime in the future. Is that right? ... I thought you gave some good details on this in your earlier post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39210 --- Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, we both recalled K.Sujin using aasaya to refer to good and bad tendencies or inclinations and when I went through the tapes before, I heard the same, but no time to check again now. (Azita may!!). But perhaps it depends on context. I'll clarify when we next visit Bkk. What I understood was just like in the quote you gave from the Thai comy under aasaya, bias dentoting the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as clinging, and also good, such as reununciation. ======================== 41118 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL, S: The delay is no problem and you're certainly still making good sense. Hang in there! Just use CMA as a reference text rather than a 'must read' book. (I've never read through it either). Down to your questions and comments. --- Andrew Levin wrote: <..> > So is self view necessarily wrong view, that is, it comprises wrong > view with whatever type of citta there is? …. S: Self view and associated wrong views just arise with particular kinds of cittas rooted in attachment. Like all other cittas, they arise momentarily, in this case with a wrong idea or marking of the object, and then fall away. As Nina just wrote: "Our accumulated lobha, attachment, and wrong view, ditthi, cause us to cling to wrong practice." …. >If so I still think we can > practise this as a psycho-physical organism, that is, without wrong > view, the factors then being, what degree of different qualities can > be cultivated or brought into being - and which cannot, but depend on > unchangeable conditions (I would say sati is one we can cultivate) … S: If we understand that particular conditions will lead to the arising of wholesome states such as sati, this is right. If we really think that 'we', Andrew and Sarah can cultivate or develop sati, then it's wrong. Let me know if I've missed part of your question here. …. <…> >Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're trying to have > view of one nama or rupa at a time, you still think of yourself as a > 'person,' or 'Sarah Abbott' that goes through day to day recognizing > one nama, one rupa. …. S: You're right. When you or I are trying to do anything or trying to have a particular view or to understand one nama or rupa at a time, it's till 'me', 'Sarah' or 'Andrew' at work, a lurking wrong view conditioned by attachment and ignorance. It's really good (imho) that this is making sense. So at these moments, that trying or thinking or attachment can be known. That is the present nama. …. >Similarly I think I can get to understand how the > four foundations of mindfulness are properly practised, and practise > them. I don't see why this can't be practised with 'right view' that > there is no self if this is to be understood. Maybe you could > describe exactly what wrong view of self is, if you still disagree. …. S: Self-view can be very subtle and can sneak in anytime. One moment, there can be awareness naturally of a nama or rupa appearing and the next moment a trying to repeat it, trying to understand or label or practice, all with an idea of self. Anytime there's the idea that it's 'my' awareness or that "I' can be aware, or this body is mine and so on, it's self view. (See in U.P. under 'sakkaya-ditthi' for much more). It has to be the object of awareness and understanding to be seen for what it is. Let me know if you want me to say more. I can give lots of examples, like anytime there is an idea of following a practice….!! …. > OK, now talk to me on a level of how you start out with wrong view of > self, what this is superficially at the top level, and how you get > down to eliminating it as a fetter completely. …. S: OK: Top Level:"If I sit and concentrate on the breath or body, awareness, calm and understanding will grow". Another Top Level: "I have to be aware and control my life so that later Self will be eliminated" Another one: "You and I can eliminate this fetter". As I say, by understanding dhammas when they are experienced, firstly as namas and rupas, not people or things, gradually the fetters will be lessened and eventually eradicated, but without any Self's intervention. Such understanding has to be with detachment which doesn't mind at all what is experienced right now. …. > > S: Hearing is a citta (consciousness). Citta here is a synonym for > vinnana > > as in vinnana khandha. So hearing, seeing and all other cittas are > > included in vinnana khandha. > A:> I still don't understand. What is vinnana then? I was under the > impression the skhandhas are the five aggregates including material > form, perceptions, feelings, volition, and mental formations like > emotions and cognition. Is it that hearing-consciousness is part of > mental formations? That I could understand. … S: Citta or vinnana is the nama, the reality which has no shape or form and which experiences an object at every single moment, including when we're fast asleep. It 'cognizes' or 'knows' its object, whether it is a sense door object, a mind door object or a 'door-freed' object (as I say, like when we're fast asleep and there are just bhavanga cittas arising). In your classification of the khandhas, The fourth one is sankhara khandha which includes cetana and all other mental factors (cetasikas) except sanna and vedana which have their own khandha. The last one you mention is vinnana khandha. This includes all these cittas, including hearing consciousness. When we refer to emotions, we're usually referring to feelings and mental states such as greed and aversion, included in sankhara khandha. I think there is something not quite right about your expression of vinnana/citta, so please ask more questions on this as it's important to get straight. Just remember that citta merely experiences or cognizes its object, whether that is a rupa, another nama or a concept. It doesn't feel or like or get angry. These are the tasks of the accompanying mental factors that arise with it. You might look again at the intro to 'Cetasikas' or Nyantiloka's dict under khandhas, from which I'm copying this quote:. "What, O monks, is the consciousness group (vinnana khandha)? There are 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-c, tongue-c, body-c, and mind-c" S XX11,56 … > Ooh. Makes sense. So citta is the object of citta at moments where > there is a lack of hearing, seeing, etc, and the consciousness that > adverts it to the appropriate sense door. … S: Through the sense doors (i.e seeing, hearing and the following cittas), the object is always a rupa, eg visible object, sound etc. Through the mind-door (i.e when there is no seeing, hearing and following cittas etc), the object can be either a) the same rupa just experienced through the sense door, b) the citta which has just fallen away, c) a cetasika which has just fallen away or d) most commonly, a concept or idea. When we are talking about satipatthana, the object can only be a reality, i.e a), b) or c) above, but not d). I suggest you don't get too bogged down in the Abhidhamma details. It's enough to know that there can be awareness now of any reality appearing by conditions. Seeing is real, hearing is real, like, dislike and so on are real and can be directly known. …. > Man, it's been so long since I've had the sati to be aware of > thinking. That kind of sati required hours a day of meditation. … S: No. It doesn't require hours of anything. Right now, as we speak, there is thinking. It's not you or me, it's just a conditioned nama. Awareness can arise anytime and then gone. Nothing to cling on to or to try and have arise. Very, very ordinary. …. >I > still can use the exercise of 'labeling' - (it would be good if > someone could describe to me the point of labeling and its drawbacks > compared to other methods towards realization that can be used in its > place) thoughts, that is, 'thinking, thinking,' but bare awareness of > thoughts is history as far as I'm concerned. Need more sati. … S: There are other 'labelling' discussions going on at the moment. As I see it, as soon as there is any labelling, it's thinking about realities long since fallen away with attachment, a desire to catch or be aware of them. No one has shown me any references to where the ancient texts recommend such a practice. Friends have also referred to 'sitting, sitting, sitting', but while there is this idea of posture and my body, the truths about elements arising and passing away will always be covered up. So instead of helping the development of awareness, it hinders instead, by encouraging more ideas about a heap or lump or posture or group of namas and rupas together. So, let sati develop naturally by understanding what namas are and what rupas are in the first place. …. > Man, I am all for non-conceptual awareness. It's been what is lacking > in my life for over a year now. Now what is the characteristic of > awareness, what conditions it? …. S: Not just a year. It's been lacking for aeons of lifetimes. I think it shows some understanding to even see how it's lacking. Mostly we take conceptual awareness for being sati, when it's merely thinking. If we've never heard about these dhammas, the khandhas , the namas and rupas, there is no possibility for awareness to develop. Awareness has the characteristic of just being aware momentarily of one of these realities when it appears. At that moment, there is no idea of 'me' doing anything or trying or of any label or body or thing. Just 'seeing' or 'hearing' or 'feeling' or 'sound' or any other dhamma. In the beginning it's bound to be so weak and infrequent and it's bound to be followed by doubt, attachment, wrong view and other unwholesome states. Gradually understanding can begin to know when awareness arises and what its characteristic is, so that it can really develop, but not by any wishing or wanting. …. > Well, I've tried (to cultivate it in one session), and had it manifest > itself throughout the day, but I'm not sure of this point. It seems > like I could have had more knowledge or mindfulness of the parts of > the 'chariot' as its functions as a whole began to slow down. But > maybe you are right? … ;-). The obstacle is this 'trying to cultivate it', because it's motivated by attachment and self-view. But that's Ok, they can be seen for what they are when they arise too. When we appreciate that really any dhamma can be known and can be the object of awareness, a huge burden (of wrong view) is lifted and we can really begin to see that awareness can develop anytime without any special efforts or sessions. Trying to slow down cittas or the arising of conditioned dhammas would be another Top Level kind of self-view as I see it, with an idea of Self being in charge which can only lead to dismay and great disturbance when Self doesn't get his/her way. Please ask for any clarifications and let me know if these comments make sense to you. Metta, Sarah p.s I'll also be glad to hear any feedback or different views from others of course. ====== 41119 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Htoo We had here in the Netherlands a novelist who wrote so much novels that critics said: He can write quicker than God can read. I live in a God-less reality but are impressed by your production. I will skip much and react on some quotes of two messages of you. In # 40934 Htoo: I am just trying to touch all possible areas of Dhamma. These are not final words. Actually they are all just a starting point. When 'this starting point' is assumed as complicated, I feel a bit reluctant to proceed. We do have different perfection-potentials and different accumulation. When you think that 'Dhamma Threads' are alienating your spiritual practice, please just use it sensibly. Dhamma Threads are just a starter. You can put aside them and you can go forward if you think your own path is fine. Joop (now): Write and publish as quick as you want (and as Sarah want) but I'm not sure a discussion forum as this DSG is a perfect medium for to much monologues. Publishing on your webside or in a book or a ebook can be didactically better. I will read your information on the moment I'm ready for it. Joop continued (a week ago): Not me: the only non-human beings I can imagine are animals; Htoo (a week ago): This is externality of yours. You are judging with your own experience. Here you may argue that if self-experience cannot be used how things will be justifiable to say without proof. Here again 'proof' seems that you want to see with your own eyes with your own mind etc etc. Regarding non-human beings, there are people who communicate with non- human beings who are not animals. You seem to like 'proof'. The proof is inside of you. If you can fulfil the necessary things and conditions you will see with you mind-eyes to those non-human-non- animal beings. For the first step 'can you stay arresting of thoughts?' When the surface water is violently shaking, rocking, vibrating, trembling there is nothing to be seen. When it stands still when [thoughts are arrested] there are reflections and they can clearly be seen. The proof is inside of you. Joop (now). I have a skeptical attitude, and I think I keep it. It's not that I like 'proof' but that I know the strength of 'whisful thinking', in myself and in others. And I don't only accept empirical facts from outside, read by one of the physical senses, but also with inside, as a result from meditation/contemplation. And about the 'non-human-non-animal beings': I don't have the idea that I need them, not in daily life and not in my spiritual life. Htoo contiued: 'Self is self-refuge'. Again I remember a person arguing on this matter that there are only 3 refuges and they are The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha. Joop (now). To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. I know Bhikkhu Bodhi is playing down this interpretation of this sutta but I'm still sticking to it. No Kalama today Without this basic attitude of me I still was a christian and a consumer and never should have read any Dhamma-text ! In #40950 Htoo (a week ago) Doubtless is the earliest tool to explore nibbana. Please read upanisa sutta. If you are doubtful there is a great hindrance in reaching nibbana. What you think 'proofless' will prove you when they arise in you. That is why I said 'proofless' matter is internal. I do not know whether you see them or not because it is internality of you and not me. Joop (now): Of course I can not know if you are doubtless or not. But to me a teacher who can show his own doubt has more impact on me than a teacher who gives the impression of being perfect and knowing everything. And about 'proofless' I already said what I mean with 'proof'. But one critical remark about your 'Dhamma threads'; it may be it's my scientific background but why don't you give references from the Tipitaka (Sutta's or one of the Abhidhamma books) when you state things as you do ? Because giving the sources of your information is a kind of proof too. I doubt if I will decide to be doubtless, but I try to have a more open mind. Perhaps in the end with that I'm doubtless but I will still be 'agnostic' then. (I don't know you know it and like it but I like the book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor). Thanks again for the many things that has enriched and will enriche my path Metta Joop 41120 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:24am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah (I'm going to drop the "Friend". Connie is right, I sound like a Quaker ;-) Sarah: If we understand that particular conditions will lead to the arising of wholesome states such as sati, this is right. James: Could you please be more specific as to what conditions? Would `intention to practice sati (mindfulness)' be included? Sarah: If we really think that `we', Andrew and Sarah can cultivate or develop sati, then it's wrong. James: Why is that wrong? The view of a permanent self is insidious and far reaching, tainting all of our actions and thoughts, until the moment of enlightenment when that view is dropped. How could one practice sati without that view, when the purpose of sati is to eliminate that view? (I know we have covered this before, but I sense that you want some more discussion.) One's practice doesn't need to be perfect to be effective. Sure, mindfulness without any sense of self is the most perfect, but who is going to be capable of that? Not very many people, so it is important to start from where you are. One can get very discouraged in Buddhist practice if they maintain lofty ideals of what is supposed to happen and how soon it is supposed to happen. The key is to be patient and to break away at the fetter of ignorance little by little; to keep in mind that ignorance has been building in oneself for many eons and it will take some time to be eliminated; and that one shouldn't compare oneself too much to others, as we are all at different points. So, can `Andrew' and `Sarah' have sati? Sure they can! Sarah: No. It doesn't require hours of anything. Right now, as we speak, there is thinking. It's not you or me, it's just a conditioned nama. Awareness can arise anytime and then gone. Nothing to cling on to or to try and have arise. Very, very ordinary. James: Wow! I finally agree with something you write! ;-)) Mindfulness doesn't require hours of meditation to occur, anyone can practice mindfulness- even children. However, serenity meditation (jhana) will make the mindfulness much stronger because then the mind can be directed toward nama or rupa long enough to see all three stages: arising, persisting, and passing away. Sarah: There are other `labelling' discussions going on at the moment. As I see it, as soon as there is any labelling, it's thinking about realities long since fallen away with attachment, a desire to catch or be aware of them. James: Two for Two! I agree with you again! ;-)) I don't believe that `labeling' is very effective because it can disturb the tranquility of the mind to see the three stages of conditioned phenomena I mentioned earlier. It could be used when one if first starting out, in order to get into the habit of mindfulness, but then it should soon after be dropped, in my opinion. Sarah: So, let sati develop naturally by understanding what namas are and what rupas are in the first place. James: Three for three! ;-)) I agree with you here also. However, and I'm sure you won't agree with this: I believe that Abhidhamma study, other than the basics, is a severe hinderance to the type of natural sati you describe. With intense Abhidhamma study, the mind is automatically going to label practically every nama and rupa experienced and thus ruin the natural insight one could attain. I think I will stop here. You write a lot of other things, but this is enough for one post. Metta, James 41121 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Kel: you're describing the end result and nothing about the > training that allows one to achieve samapatti with uninterruptedness > and unlimited qualities. It's fine if you want to "reserve" the > word samapatti for such an ability. Regardless, there'll still be > fits and start with consecutive vithis entering in and out of phala > while one is still practicing. Just like some arahats keep ascetics > practices, I don't see why they wouldn't keep up their mental > exercise for samapattis. It is the same as samatha exercise to > become really good at it. Mahasi sayadaw described how to do it > with vipassana in his books. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thanks for your kind reply. 3 samapattis I described is just for explanation on vithi vara. The training will be coming at a later time that is near Dhamma Thread (1000). So I just posted end results as you said. With much respect, Htoo Naing 41122 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > The question you asked me was about body impression, a contact or, > equivalently, a sense of touch (phassa) during a siting meditation, that > Mahasi Sayadaw described in his famous article, "Satipatthana > Vipassana, Insight through Mindfulness". Mahasi wrote: > > > "In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the yogi can > > note them when they occur. Body impressions, however, are ever > > present. They usually exist distinctly all the time. > > During the time that one is sitting, the body impression of stiffness > > or the sensation of hardness in this position is distinctly felt. > > Attention should therefore be fixed on the sitting posture > > and a note made as 'sitting, sitting, sitting.' " > > Your question was : > > > Htoo: I agree with 'distinctly felt'. But I do not agree if you > > mean 'the object for body-consciousness' is present all the time. > > Well, during the sitting meditation session the "body impressions" > are "ever present", that's what he wrote. The meditator certainly feels > stiffness in the legs, knees and his lower back (even after 10 minutes or > so). The sensation of hardness can also come from the contact with the > floor. Of course the stiffness and sensation of hardness are present "all > the time" while the meditator is sitting. > > I hope my answer makes sense. > > Kind regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I understand. But what I stress was the other. I know the writings and the words. But body-impression are not present all the time. I am referring them as photthabba-arammana. A rupa just lasts 17 citta-kkhana and it never exceeds its lifespan. If exceed and present all the time then it has to be nicca and not anicca. So I said I know tha writing and the words. Even in our body [what we think] there are many nerves and they are carring messages all the time. But some never reach conscious level. I hope you get the point. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41123 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:58am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Dear Htoo > > We had here in the Netherlands a novelist who wrote so much novels > that critics said: He can write quicker than God can read. > I live in a God-less reality but are impressed by your production. > > I will skip much and react on some quotes of two messages of you. > > In # 40934 > Htoo: I am just trying to touch all possible areas of Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, I will come back later. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41124 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread (239) Dear Dhamma Friends, The linking of the previous life and asannisattas have been discussed in the previous post. What happen when those asannisattas die? Asannisattas do have their own lifespan and when the lifespan expire they have to leave that realm. Their bhavnga or life-contiuning is also rupa-bhavana and there is no citta at all and when it is the time to leave the last life is called rupa-cuti and as soon as that rupa disappear that is after 51st anu-khana there automatically arise a citta. Where does it come from? Isn't that strange? What is the next life? Buddhists say that asannisattas are not good. From perspective of nibbana it is yes, asannisattas are not good. But there is no disasters in asannisatta brahma realm. And when they die they cannot go to apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes like niraya or hell realm, animal realm, peta realm, or asurakaya realm. And they cannot go directly to human realm or deva realms. Why? There is a general rule that patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta take the object of immediate past life's marana-asanna- javana cittas. But in case of asannisatta what will it be [the object] as there is no marana-asanna-javana cittas in asannisatta brahmas. So what is their next life after asannisatta's life. Before that their last life marana-asanna-javana citta is 4th rupa jhana citta. Asannisattas are the result of that 4th rupa jhana with special contemplation. So after asannisatta there arise 4th rupajhana vipaka citta as patisandhi citta. After that life all the rules of citta are the same. After asannisatta, there arise tihetuka patisandhi citta or triple- rooted linking consciousness. These cittas arise as cittas of sugati bhumi or good realms. The vithi vara here comprises three lives. I.life.. BB..BBBMPUAG4RjC|_II.life_asannisatta___|PBBB--III.life-BBB May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41125 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:25am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Joop, You replied today. I said I will come back. Now I am back. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Dear Htoo We had here in the Netherlands a novelist who wrote so much novels that critics said: He can write quicker than God can read. I live in a God-less reality but are impressed by your production. I will skip much and react on some quotes of two messages of you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The possibility that I may leave the internet. That is why I pressurise the messages. Sarah reminded me one new Dhamma Thread post a day or 7 posts in a week so that readers can digest and more responses will come out. When I am available I do not want to publish or write a book or type an ebook or naything like that. But as 'Sabbe dhamma anatta' my pressurised messages productions are also 'anatta'. No one need to say stop. It will stop at a time. Someone stops me posting. But it was not successful. The reason I am writing here in Groups is not for self-promotion. For Dhamma sharing. Not for my fame. For readers. I am not acting as a all round person or all-know person. I know your message contains the flavour that I am doing so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop quote on old message: > In # 40934 > Htoo: I am just trying to touch all possible areas of Dhamma. These > are not final words. Actually they are all just a starting point. > When 'this starting point' is assumed as complicated, I feel a bit > reluctant to proceed. > We do have different perfection-potentials and different > accumulation. When you think that 'Dhamma Threads' are alienating > your spiritual practice, please just use it sensibly. > Dhamma Threads are just a starter. You can put aside them and you can > go forward if you think your own path is fine. Joop replied: Joop (now): Write and publish as quick as you want (and as Sarah want) but I'm not sure a discussion forum as this DSG is a perfect medium for to much monologues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have responed this above. 'Write and publish as quick as you want'? I have explained above. Quick production is not for me. Even though Dhamma Thread posts look like monologues I always include footnote that to ask question. This indicates that it is not a monologue as you think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Publishing on your webside or in a book or a ebook can be didactically better. I will read your information on the moment I'm ready for it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This matter has been discussed above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: Joop continued (a week ago): Not me: the only non-human beings I can imagine are animals; Htoo (a week ago): >This is externality of yours. You are judging with your own experience. Here you may argue that if self-experience cannot be used how things will be justifiable to say without proof. Here > again 'proof' seems that you want to see with your own eyes with your own mind etc etc. > Regarding non-human beings, there are people who communicate with non-human beings who are not animals. > You seem to like 'proof'. > The proof is inside of you. If you can fulfil the necessary things > and conditions you will see with you mind-eyes to those non-human- non- > animal beings. > For the first step 'can you stay arresting of thoughts?' > When the surface water is violently shaking, rocking, vibrating, > trembling there is nothing to be seen. When it stands still when > [thoughts are arrested] there are reflections and they can clearly be > seen. > The proof is inside of you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Joop (now). I have a skeptical attitude, and I think I keep it. It's not that I like 'proof' but that I know the strength of 'whisful thinking', in myself and in others. And I don't only accept empirical facts from outside, read by one of the physical senses, but also with inside, as a result from meditation/contemplation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is good for you. You might have been Kalama in The Buddha time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: And about the 'non-human-non-animal beings': I don't have the idea that I need them, not in daily life and not in my spiritual life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, you do not need them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop quoted: > Htoo contiued: 'Self is self-refuge'. Again I remember a person > arguing on this matter that there are only 3 refuges and they are The > Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop replied: Joop (now). To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. I know Bhikkhu Bodhi is playing down this interpretation of this sutta but I'm still sticking to it. No Kalama today Without this basic attitude of me I still was a christian and a consumer and never should have read any Dhamma-text ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is wrong to say 4th refuge. There are 3 refuge. All these 3 are within self-refuge. The Buddha showed the way. The Dhamma paves the way. The Sangha bring the map. Whoever shows the way, the walker is self. That is nself-refuge. This is not to be mixed with 3 refuges. They are not the same kind. Not the same level. Do you think that your self is equal to The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha? But in triplegem The Buddha = The Dhamma = The Sangha When The Dhamma is seen The Buddha is seen. When The Dhamma is attained Sanghahood is attained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop quoted: > In #40950 > Htoo (a week ago) Doubtless is the earliest tool to explore nibbana. > Please read upanisa sutta. If you are doubtful there is a great > hindrance in reaching nibbana. > What you think 'proofless' will prove you when they arise in you. > That is why I said 'proofless' matter is internal. I do not know > whether you see them or not because it is internality of you and not > me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop replied: Joop (now): Of course I can not know if you are doubtless or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because I am external to you. That is bahiddha dhamma or external things to you. So you are right to say above sentence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: But to me a teacher who can show his own doubt has more impact on me than a teacher who gives the impression of being perfect and knowing everything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have responded in earlier part in opening messages. At least you are revealing that 'I am showing off. I am giving the impression of being perfect and knowing everything'. What I see is that 'this is just judging on the writer'. And this is not exploring into dhammas. I do not think this will not benefit any reader. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: And about 'proofless' I already said what I mean with 'proof'. But one critical remark about your 'Dhamma threads'; it may be it's my scientific background but why don't you give references from the Tipitaka (Sutta's or one of the Abhidhamma books) when you state things as you do ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'why don't you give references'? There are many members here who know me as they are members of several Groups. I have already told that my main reference is Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha. Many members know that I once explained how I write my messages. There are 2 types of referring. One is 'copying of exact part, word, portion, paragraph' and in such case there give references. But when messages are not like that then the writers give biblography. That is a list of books or texts. When I am writing actually most words come from my memory which is data that are automatically stored when I read Abhidhammatthasangaha and many other texts. I read a lot in my past. I listened Dhamma preachings of venerable bhikkhus. But at the moment nearly all I am writing come from from memory. So that is why I do not include any references. For you if you are interested 1.jinatthapakasanii 2.sanvegavatthudiipanii 3.jatakas 4.dhammapada 5.abhidhammatthasangaha 6.visuddhimagga 7.selected texts that I cannot remember the titles and the writers 8.most books written by Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw 9.dhamma-preachings of great Sayadaws 10.my practical experiences ---------------------------------------------------------------------- joop continued: Because giving the sources of your information is a kind of proof too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand you and others. But I have explained about references. Do you think there are flaws in Dhamma Threads? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: I doubt if I will decide to be doubtless, but I try to have a more open mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. More open mind is good. But becareful and know the own limitations. Not every 'still' are jhanas and not every 'ordinary' are puthujana. When judging by own wisdom, that wisdom needs to be checked. Sometimes I say 1 >< 1 = 1 but 1 >< 0.5 is not equal to one. 0.5 wisdom will not know full. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Perhaps in the end with that I'm doubtless but I will still be 'agnostic' then. (I don't know you know it and like it but I like the book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How can I access that book. If I have time, I will read it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's conclusion: Thanks again for the many things that has enriched and will enriche my path Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are most welcome. As I have said messages are not for me but for others. May you be free from doubt nad suspicion With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41126 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Htoo "The Master having finished his exposition of the Law, declared the Truths and identified the Birth:- At the conclusion of the Truths the landowner attained the fruit of the First Path:- 'At that time Khujjuttara was the female slave, Uppalavanna the daughter, Rahula the son, Khema the mother, and I myself was the brahmin." Thank you all again for the inspiring posts about this Jataka. Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your adding. Your message is changing my memories. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! With Metta, Htoo Naing 41127 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, op 19-01-2005 02:10 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Ayuhana is the accumulation of kamma that will definitely produce a > particular result (vipaka) sometime in the future. Is that right? N: I would omit the word definitely. There are other factors necessary for kamma to produce result. When one lives in time of war it may not be favorable for kusala kamma to produce result. The same when one is born in a hell plane. Moreoever, there is for instance counter active kamma, it prevents a particular kamma to produce result. Many factors are at play, it is most intricate. L: I thought you said sometime back that accumlations (ayuhana?) condition > javana cittas. > Asayanusaya are tendencies, kusala and akusala, also accumulated, that > _may_ condition a javana citta. Correct? N: The word aayuhana is actually reserved for the accumulation of kamma that can produce result. As we read in the Tiika note: Volition is the principle and the other cetasikas work in combination with volition is implied in this context. They perform together good and bad deeds which are accumulated and can bring result. Desire or anger arise with akusala citta but this does not always have the strength of akusala kamma. They arise and fall away and the tendency to desire or anger are accumulated and thus there are conditions for the arising again of desire or anger. They can condition akusala javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition. The akusala javana cittas that arise by this condition may be very strong and have the intensity of motivating a bad deed. Such a deed is accumulated (here we can use aayuhana) and it can produce vipaka later on. Not only that. These strong akusala cetasikas also add to the latent tendencies. Again these can condition the arising of akusala javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition. Again and again and again. That is the cycle. In whatever way we look at akusala, it is dangerous in all respects. Nina. 41128 From: nina Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:36am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika [THE FORMATIONS AGGREGATE] Intro: the Pali term sa²nkhaarakkhandha stands for the khandha of formations or activities. In this khandha are included all cetasikas other than feeling and perception. As we have seen, feeling and perception or remembrance are separate khandhas: vedanaakkhandha and saññaakkhandha. The term sa²nkhaara is also used in connection with dhamma. Sa²nkhaara dhammas are all conditioned realities. Citta, cetasika and ruupa are sa²nkhaara dhammas, they arise because of conditions and they fall away. Sa²nkhaarakkhandha is sa²nkhaara dhamma, but not all sa²nkhaara dhammas are sa²nkhaarakkhandha. Text Visuddhimagga XIV, 131: Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of forming should be understood, all taken together, as the formations aggregate' (par.81). N: We read in the Tiika of the Vis. XIV, 81: N: Of the khandha of formations, sankhaarakkhandha, volition is principal (Dispeller of Delusion, p. 22). Volition has the task of accumulating and it also coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas, it has a double task. Abhisa²nkhara designates volition that is kusala kamma or akusala kamma which is accumulated and can produce result. It is a link in the Dependent Origination. Volition also arises with vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta and then it only coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas. Text Vis: And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating [57]. N: The note 57 is taken from the Tiika text: ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484). N: Agglomerating, raasikara.na: making a heap. The meaning is: heaping up, adding together. As to the function of accumulating, aayuuhana, this refers to the accumulation of kamma that can produce a result. Cetanaa, which is kamma, is the basis or principal of the khandha of formations. Text Vis: What is that? It is formations themselves, according as it is said, 'They form the formed, bhikkhus, that is why they are called formations' (S.iii,87). N: As to the words, they form the formed (sa"nkhatamabhisa"nkharontiiti), the Tiika explains this as: their own fruit is ³formed² or conditioned (attano phala.m sa²nkhata.m), and it adds the word: produced (nipphanna.m). It is produced accordingly (sammadeva). They operate together with kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa so that the result is produced accordingly. This is the meaning of, Œthey form¹, abhisa²nkharonti, the Tiika states. Sa²nkaroti means to put together or combine. The prefix abhi is used here in the sense of preponderance. All akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas are included in sa²nkhaarakkhandha. It is said, Œthey form the formed¹; the plural is used here: abhisa²nkharonti. Cetanaa, volition or intention, is the principal of this khandha. Kamma is actually cetanaa cetasika. When we perform good or bad deeds it is volition or intention that motivates the deed and this is the activity of kamma that is accumulated. Cetanaa is accompanied by other cetasikas when it motivates a good deed or a bad deed and these perform each their own function. ****** Nina. 41129 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, op 18-01-2005 20:54 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: As you know magga-vithi is very > fast and you only experience nibbana for 3 cittas. So potentially > one could miss it easily or not realize exactly what has happened. N: The sotapanna, as I said, has to go through all stages of insight knowledge. He sees the disadvantages more and more of conditioned dhammas and inclines to nibbana. It is a gradual process and paññaa is growing. When he is becoming a sotapanna there is the lokuttara indriya: the assurance: I shall come to know what I did not know before: an-aññaataññassaamii. He directly experiences nibbaana for the first time. After that there is pacchavekkhana ñaa.na: reviewing. Reviewing nibbaana, reviewing the defilements that have been eradicated and those that are still to be eradicated. This is important. He knows that he should go on developing paññaa until he reaches arahatship. Yes, these are only a few moments. Enlightenment can be realized in daily life when paññaa has been developed to that stage. K: We're encouraged to do self-examining to see if all proper > defilements been rooted out as the best way to see if we have > achieved sotapatti or not. N: Yes. But since it is paññaa I do not see how there could be any doubt. If a person has doubt he should ask himself: what do I understand at this moment? Do I understand seeing now as nama, visible object now as rupa? Do I realize them as arising and falling away, as anatta? What about lobha now? Is it only a name, or do I realize its characteristic as non-self, not my lobha? K: There are many and similar experiences > in meditation to magga-vithi that makes it hard to tell apart. N: Meditation: you mean the development of jhana. When that is properly done, one does not get confused like that. There is also paññaa in jhana. Paññaa has to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when there is lobha that takes for jhana or for magga citta what is not. The fake has to be differentiated from the real. Truthfulness is very necessary, in whatever way one wants to practice. Delusion is dangerous as you will agree. K: It's > not that there's ignorance, we just don't have a teacher who can > read our minds and give us a certificate. N: The Buddha has taught us in such a way that we have to develop our own pañña, that is a great blessing. We have to be our own refuge, we are not dependent on a teacher. True, a teacher can point the way in the beginning, but then we have to develop pañña ourselves. Nina. 41130 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:08am Subject: Dhamma Thread (240) Dear Dhamma Friends, At any given time there is a citta. That citta is always accompanied by a number of cetasikas. All these dhammas that is citta and its associated cetasikas have to depend on an object or an arammana. All these dhammas have to ground on a base or ground or vatthu. This is always right whenever a satta or a being that we understand is a collection of 5 aggregates or 5 khandhas or pancakkhandha. These 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates are 1. rupa.kkhandha or 'material aggregates' 2. vedana.kkhandha or 'feeling aggregates' 3. sanna.kkhandha or 'perception aggregates' 4. sankhara.kkhandha or 'mental formations aggregates' 5. vinnana.kkhandha or 'consciousness aggregates'. There are 1 rupa khandha and 4 nama khandhas. Asannisattas brahmas or brahma without mind are just living with only one khandha and it is rupa.kkhandha. There are another 4 realms that do not have all 5 aggregates. They are 4 arupa brahma realms. They live with only 4 nama.kkhandhas. These 4 khandhas are feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness aggregates. There is no rupa at all. In that realm or when a citta arises in that realm then there is no ground or base rupa or vatthu dhamma for these 4 namakkhandhas to home. So the given citta if in pancavokara bhumis or realms that have 5 aggregates that citta has all the characters that should have. When the given citta is in catuvokara bhumis or realms that have 4 aggregates that citta will not have any vatthu to ground on. That given citta may be functioning as vithi citta. Or it may well be functioning as vithi-mutta citta. Vithi citta means 'consciousness in procession' and vithi-mutta citta means 'process-free consciousness'. If it is a citta functioning as a vithi citta then that citta has to be one citta of already described vithi varas. Vithi varas are 1. cakkhu-dvara vithi vara 2. sota-dvara vithi vara 3. ghana-dvara vithi vara 4. jivha-dvara vithi vara 5. kaya-dvara vithi vara All these are panca-dvara vithi vara and javana cittas in these 5 vithi varas are called kama javana. There are 4 kinds of arising of these 5 vithi vara depending on how many vithi cittas arise in a series. These 4 kinds are 1.ati-mahanta-arammana vithi vara 2.mahanta-arammana vithi vara 3.paritta-arammana vithi vara 4. ati-paritta-arammana vithi vara So there will be 20 vithi varas in panca-dvara vithi varas. There are mano-dvara vithi varas. Depending on number of vithi cittas there are 2 kinds of arising of vithi cittas. They are 1. vibhuta-arammana vithi vara 2. avibhuta-arammana vithi vara Both vithi varas are kama javana vithi varas. Regarding kinds of manodvara vithi varas there are 1. kama javana vara 2. jhana javana vara 3. magga javana vara 4. abhinna javana vara 5. jhana-samapatti vithi vara 6. phala-sama-patti vithi vara 7. nirodha-samapatti vithi vara Apart from kama javana vithi vara, other 6 manodvara vithi varas are all vibhuta-arammana and there is no avibhuta-arammana in jhana javana vara, magga javana vara, and phala jhana vara. When a citta is functioning as a vithi citta or processing consciousness then that citta has to be one of vithi cittas in one of vithi vara mentioned above. If that citta is not processing consciousness then that citta is working as 1. linker who is life-starter( patisandhi citta) or 2. life-continuer (bhavanga citta) or 3. life-ender (cuti citta) When working as one these 3, that citta and its home 'rupa' are collectively and externally viewed as a being or satta. There are 19 cittas that can do the job of linking or life-starting, the job of life-continuing or the job of life-ending. But being-wise there are 31 kinds of being. These 31 kinds dwell in 31 separate realms. These 31 realms are called 31 planes of existence, or 31 realms or 31 bhumis. These 31 bhumis are 1. 4 arupa brahma bhumis 2. 16 rupa brahma bhumis 3. 6 deva bhumis 4. 1 manussa bhumi (human realm) 5. 4 apaya bhumis ( 4 woeful planes ) ----- 31 bhumis These 31 bhumis may well be out of interest. But as they are well connected with cittas, they will be explained in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41131 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:06pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas > N: Yes. But since it is paññaa I do not see how there could be any doubt. If > a person has doubt he should ask himself: what do I understand at this > moment? Kel: Vis. XXII 21. Trainers may or may not have the reviewing of the defilements abandoned and those still remaining. In fact it was owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me internally owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and remain?' (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. I just don't think it's so clear cut in what actually is known to ariyas of different grades. The only things I see for sure are the original 10 vipassana-nanas and magga-vithi. Beyond that I think vithis can happen in any order and different time frames. I don't really have much further to say as I think our positions are just different. - Kel 41132 From: Justin Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:24am Subject: Greetings Hello Everybody, I look forward to reading your posts. I am somewhat new to studying the Dhamma. i hope to make some posts once in awhile myself. Best regards, Justin 41133 From: Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Nina, How do we categorize the accumulation of feeling and consciousness? Larry ---------------------------- N: "Such a deed is accumulated (here we can use aayuhana) and it can produce vipaka later on. Not only that. These strong akusala cetasikas also add to the latent tendencies. Again these can condition the arising of akusala javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition." 41134 From: Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika Hi Nina, I'm having a hard time understanding this section. Is the meaning that sankara cetasikas combine themselves or other dhammas into a whole? Is this combination a matter of coordinating cetasikas? For "agglomeration" you gave the meaning of "heap". A heap is a group, as in "khandha". What's the difference between a heap and a whole? Also it's difficult to resolve the difference between accumulation and impermanence? Larry ------------------------- N: " Sa²nkaroti means to put together or combine." 41135 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:29pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 102 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (n) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** At this moment we are in the cycle of birth and death and we cling to life, we want to go on living. We think that life is desirable because we do not know what life really is: only nåma and rúpa which do not stay. We cling to the self, we want to be liked and admired by others, we want to be successful in our work. However, we have many frustrations in life; when we do not get what we want we are disappointed. So long as there are defilements there is no end to the cycle of birth and death, but there can be an end to the cycle if we begin to know this moment of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound or thinking as it is, as only conditioned realities which do not stay. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41136 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings Hi Justin, --- Justin wrote: > I look forward to reading your posts. I am somewhat new to studying the > Dhamma. i > hope to make some posts once in awhile myself. ... Welcome to DSG and thx for make your presence known! We'll look forward to your contributions. Why not start by telling us a little more about yourself, your interest in studying the Dhamma and where you live? You may find it useful to look at posts under 'New to the list and new to the Dhamma' in Useful Posts in the 'files' section on the homepage. Also, just ignore any posts which are too detailed for now and start your own threads I suggest. Let us know if we can help at all and look forward to hearing your reflections. Metta, Sarah ======== 41137 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James, (AndrewL & TG), Thanks for your feedback - you sensed right! --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Could you please be more specific as to what conditions? > Would `intention to practice sati (mindfulness)' be included? …. S: I would say understanding its characteristic, understanding when it arises and when it doesn't, understanding the objects of mindfulness - which means clearly distinguishing between namas and rupas, eg between seeing and visible object, between hearing and sound etc, and understanding (at least intellectually in the beginning) that these dhammas are anatta. How does such understanding develop? By hearing/reading/listening and really considering what is real at this very moment as we're doing. We read that right understanding is the forerunner* in the suttas and Abhidhamma and I think it's correct that the other path factors follow its lead. Intention is not a path factor, but if there is right understanding and right awareness, there is right effort and the intention will be wholesome at such moments. …. > Sarah: If we really think that `we', Andrew and Sarah can cultivate > or develop sati, then it's wrong. > > James: Why is that wrong? …. S: Because there is no Andrew or Sarah in truth to do anything. …. >The view of a permanent self is insidious > and far reaching, tainting all of our actions and thoughts, until > the moment of enlightenment when that view is dropped. How could > one practice sati without that view, when the purpose of sati is to > eliminate that view? (I know we have covered this before, but I > sense that you want some more discussion.) …. S: Thx and yes, you make good points. As you say the view is insidious and only eradicated at the moment of enlightenment. Still, even though there is the latent tendency all the time, it only arises with unwholesome moments of consciousness and only then with some particular kinds of attachment, such as when we really think 'We' can cultivate sati or make anything happen by 'Our' will. When there is awareness or wise reflection or any wholesome state, this insidious view does not arise and there's no idea that Andrew, James or Sarah can do anything. …. > One's practice doesn't need to be perfect to be effective. Sure, > mindfulness without any sense of self is the most perfect, but who > is going to be capable of that? …. S: Good points. I agree, we're beginners and we're not looking for perfection. However, right from the start, I think we have to begin to distinguish between 'right' moments with awareness and wise consideration and 'wrong' moments with self view. If there's no distinguishing of right and wrong practice, we'll just follow blindly what we read, not realizing we're developing more attachment to self, rather than less. …. >Not very many people, so it is > important to start from where you are. One can get very discouraged > in Buddhist practice if they maintain lofty ideals of what is > supposed to happen and how soon it is supposed to happen. The key > is to be patient and to break away at the fetter of ignorance little > by little; to keep in mind that ignorance has been building in > oneself for many eons and it will take some time to be eliminated; > and that one shouldn't compare oneself too much to others, as we are > all at different points. …. S: Very well said. All your points are good. And in the end, no 'you' or 'me' or 'anyone' to be at any point either. …. > James: Wow! I finally agree with something you write! ;-)) > Mindfulness doesn't require hours of meditation to occur, anyone can > practice mindfulness- even children. However, serenity meditation > (jhana) will make the mindfulness much stronger because then the > mind can be directed toward nama or rupa long enough to see all > three stages: arising, persisting, and passing away. …. S: ;-)) But I don't quite agree with your comments about 'anyone' and 'even children'. In a generally used sense of mindfulenss, perhaps, but satipatthana mindfulness is very specific and depends on having heard about dhammas (realities) which only a Buddha can teach. Also, I don't agree with your comment about jhana. Developed wisdom doesn't depend on having enough time and is accompanied by momentary concentration only. More to discuss here. A thread in itself. …. > James: Two for Two! I agree with you again! ;-)) I don't believe > that `labeling' is very effective because it can disturb the > tranquility of the mind to see the three stages of conditioned > phenomena I mentioned earlier. It could be used when one if first > starting out, in order to get into the habit of mindfulness, but > then it should soon after be dropped, in my opinion. …. S: I'm very encouraged to see these agreements (however short-lived or even if our reasons for the common view are a little different). I would go further and say that starting off 'labelling' just gets one into the habit of labeling. Like labelling the food on one's plate has nothing to do with the tasting of that food. …. > James: Three for three! ;-)) I agree with you here also. However, > and I'm sure you won't agree with this: I believe that Abhidhamma > study, other than the basics, is a severe hinderance to the type of > natural sati you describe. …. S:;-)) I'm certainly enjoying the lull before the next storm…. I do agree that wrong handling of Abhidhamma study, such as memorizing the texts with an idea of this as being of importance or trying to experience all the realities one reads about is definitely 'a severe hindrance to…natural sati'. The problem of course is in the way or view when one studies, not in the texts themselves. (I liked TG's posts on the meaning of 'no control' (#38932) and some of his comments on saddha (#40987) where he stresses there can be mindfulness 'when reading Abhidhamma or a commentary, even when watching the news and seeing D.O. working in physical and psychical manners'. Later he goes onto say that he has faith in the truths or rather principles in the teachings which can be investigated and realized, rather than in the texts themselves.I think this is right - abhidhamma is the seeing, the hearing, the like or dislike now, not the books.) Also, let me quote again from the Atthasalini,the comy to the first Abhidhamma text, a passage which you're also sure to agree with. It is discussing how like with the catching of the snake simile, one can wrongly grasp any of the Tipitaka. After discussing the wrong grasping of the Vinaya and Suttanta, we read about the dangers of the wrong grasping of the Abhidhamma too: "The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction. For it has been said, 'Bhikkhus, there are four unthinkables, things that should not be thought of. Madness or vexation will be the portion of him who does so." (Aii 80). Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the threee Pitakas, in due course arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement." …. >With intense Abhidhamma study, the mind > is automatically going to label practically every nama and rupa > experienced and thus ruin the natural insight one could attain. … S: I'm not sure, but if there is this labeling or trying to experience 'every nama and rupa' (or any nama and rupa), it's quite the wrong handling of the text, I think. Like you said, enough for one post. Thx for your helpful comments. Metta, Sarah *Dispeller (542), a comy text to the Abhidhamma, on the 8fold Path factors: "Accordingly right view is taught first among these eight states by the Blessed One because of its great helpfulness to the meditator (yogin) who is practicing for the attainment of nibbana. For this is called the light of understanding and the weapon of understanding. Therefore by means of this Right View (which is) called in the prior stage insight knowledge, by destroying the darkness of ignorance and slaying the robbers which are the defilements, the meditator reaches nibbana in safety." ========================= 41138 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo and Kel, Htoo, I personally hope your DT series continues to 1000. Thank you for accommodating various requests to go at a slower pace. More to add on them later, to show there's dialogue going on as you say;-). (Kel, I liked the comments you wrote to Joop (#41078) on the ti-lakkhana. 'When you truly understand anicca, you understand anatta' etc.) Like Nina, the comments you've both been making about not knowing sotapatti magga nana etc having occurred seem rather strange. You'd have to show me one example from the texts of this - someone who didn't know. The sotapanna has no doubt at all. Anyway, Kel and Nina are already discussing this issue. On the 3 kinds of samapatti, you may also like to look at past messages in U.P. under 'fruition'. Here's an extract from one of Nina's (part of a translated series): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18583 "Dhamma Issues 2, Fruition Attainment, no 7 There are three kinds of attainments, samåpatti: jhåna-attainment, fruition-attainment and cessation-attainment (nirodha samåpatti [15) which are progressively more subtle and refined. The ordinary person is able to attain at his own level mundane jhåna. The ariyan who has attained enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non-returner and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these different attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations." ***** Htoo, I liked your post on 'nirodha-samapatti' very much. Many people have misunderstandings. Your breakdown of terms is very helpful. I think the passage above indicates that for phala-samapatti, the enlightenment had to occur with jhana and for nirodha samapatti, the anagami or arahant must have full mastery of all jhanas and the 8 attainments which were not common even in the Buddha's time, as I understand. You mentioned about how in nirodha samapatti there is no citta or cetasika or cittaja rupa. "So from the outside if these arahats are seen by other beings they will be like statues." This also reminded me of a passage from Dispeller 2588(Sammohavinodani)which always makes me smile (we used to play a party game as children called 'Statues';-)). This is referring to the realm where only anagamis can be reborn. "Asa~n~nasattaana.m ('of the non-percipient beings'): of the beings devoid of perception. For some, after going forth in a sectarian sphere and seeing a fault in consciousness because lusting, hating and being deluded depends upon consciousness, imagine that 'The consciousless state is good, this is nibbaana in the present existence;' and they generate the fading away of greed for perception and, developing the fifth attainment in conformity therewith, they are reborn there. At the moment of their rebirth the materiality aggregate alone is reborn. If he is reborn standing, he stands only; if reborn sitting, he sits only; if reborn lying down, he lies only. They remain for five hundred aeons like painted statues. At their end the material body vanishes; sense-sphere perception arises. Through the arising of that perception here [in this sphere] those deities notice (pa~n~naayanti) that they have passed away from that [material] body." ***** I hope to come back to other threads later. I hope you don't have to leave the internet meanwhile;-). Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your poetry and humour in one post to 'Great Larry'and your other answers to questions.I think Nina added all the extra detail on D.O. and we're all in accord. I've shared my views on labeling in other threads;-)..Your 'mass-destruction' post was very good too. I meant to add more on that as well. We can read more about the destruction of the world by floods and other causes as you say in Vism and in suttas too.As you also said, 'The Buddha left the medicine, the food, the shelter. It is the Dhamma.' ============= 41139 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:37pm Subject: Clever Presence ... !!! Friends The Four Foundations of Awareness: Which Four? Only if & when the Noble Friend remains regarding any Body -own or other- simply as a heaped up group, just as a transient, compounded & complex collection, only as a fragile, accumulated & alien assemblage, while being alert, aware & clearly comprehending, then will he thereby effectively remove all urge & frustration from this world.!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend dwells observing any Feeling -from within or from without - simply as an affective reaction, just as an assigned response, only as a fleeting sensation, while being keen, fully conscious & continuously attentive, then will he thereby consequently eliminate all desire & discontent within this world.!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend abides viewing any Thought -present or remote- simply as a fancy mood, just as a made up mentality, only as a conscious moment, while being ready, actively investigating & deliberately discriminating, then will he thereby naturally eradicate all longing & sadness inherent in this world.!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend lives interpreting any Phenomenon -internal or external - simply as a passing mental state, just as a mentally created & conditioned construct, only as an experienced appearance, merely as an imaginary reflected impression, while being acutely awake, mindful & carefully understanding, then will he thereby overcome all attraction & repulsion rooted in this world.!!! Direct Hit: Without any even single exception: Whoever in the distant & ancient past has Awakened to full Enlightenment; Whoever in the present, right now is Awakening to complete Enlightenment; Whoever in the near & far future will Awaken to perfect Enlightenment; All those have been freed, is being freed, will be freed through & by: Initiating, Cultivating, Refining, Perfecting & thoroughly Establishing these Four Foundations of Awareness. !!!! The sole Cause of really Being Present.!!! Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 41140 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Htoo I'm sure you are not writing and publishing for your own fame, not for self-promotion. And now I understand how you write your Dhanmma Threads. Joop : I don't know you know it and like it but I like the book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor Htoo: How can I access that book. If I have time, I will read it. Joop: See www.stephenbatchelor.org and the online article deepagnosticism and that site. Htoo: Do you think there are flaws in Dhamma Threads? Joop: That's a difficult question, that's why I give two answers a. Your knowledge is hundred or thousands times mine, so how can I say if there are flaws, compared with the Dhamma in the texts (1 till 10) you mentioned ? b. To me in the Abhidhamma and commentaries one citta is missing; I made a message (#39844) of that opinion to Sarah and she labeled it (in # 40035) the "Joop social citta", of course she stated that there is no need of such a citta. Joop: To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. … Htoo: It is wrong to say 4th refuge. There are 3 refuge. All these 3 are within self-refuge. The Buddha showed the way. The Dhamma paves the way. The Sangha bring the map. Whoever shows the way, the walker is self. That is nself-refuge. This is not to be mixed with 3 refuges. They are not the same kind. Not the same level. Do you think that your self is equal to The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha? But in triplegem The Buddha = The Dhamma = The Sangha When The Dhamma is seen The Buddha is seen. When The Dhamma is attained Sanghahood is attained. Joop (now): You say "It is wrong to say 4th refuge." I will say: I know it's not perfectly expressed what I did mean. Of course I don't think that my self is equal to the Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. But do you say my interpretation of the DN16 quote "trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said." is wrong ? For the rest: thanks again Metta Joop 41141 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi RobK Lets forget about telling people that Abhidhamma is taught by the Buddha because all these are also conditions. If others do not believe in it, this is the nature of the decline of the sasana. As for those who are faith in it, keep it up and keep it going. Honestly speaking it is extremely difficult to have faith in the Abhidhamma and I thank my conditions for having me to know them. And I thank you, Sarah, Nina, Jon, Sukin and all the dinosuars for the willings to share and patient to teach me these valuable materials. In my readings of the suttas, I personally found that those materials from the commentaries and Abhidhamma, have been very enlightening, beneficial. To me they are gems. Recently I took a stress test ;-). I did very well because I have grow from the guidance of fellow folks from this forum, the ancient commentary, the Abhidhamma who taught the juice of nectar, the test of Anatta doctrine ;-) To all those who dont believe in Abhidhamma, thank you for your discussion, because you make me learn more about it and have more faith for it. Keep it up also because I learn from you ;-) Till then, enjoy our conditions :-). Do you know when there is meeting in BKK, maybe will take a visit there before I change job. Please send email to me privately as I am very busy nowadays, dont even have time for reading mails at DSG. Ken O 41142 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah, Thanks for the feedback also. Here we may see a bit of a storm brewing ;-). Sarah: How does such understanding develop? By hearing/reading/listening and really considering what is real at this very moment as we're doing. We read that right understanding is the forerunner* in the suttas and Abhidhamma and I think it's correct that the other path factors follow its lead. Intention is not a path factor, but if there is right understanding and right awareness, there is right effort and the intention will be wholesome at such moments. James: This sounds fine to me, except I think you are missing something: the eighth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: Jhana. I read something in an article that best expresses what I want to say, so I will just quote it. From "Practical Advice for Meditators" by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: "One hears such remarks as, "What's the use of books and study?" Or even, "The development of calm is a waste of time! One should only develop insight." Such lop-sided approaches do not reflect the wisdom of Lord Buddha, who taught time and again the necessity of a balanced development of mind. Books and their study are useful to some people who wish to gain a good background of what Lord Buddha really said, before taking up more intensive practice. As for the other assertion, no real insight (only delusive ideas) will arise to the person whose mind has no experience of calm. Such views as these, which are usually based on some peculiar experience of those "teachers" who originate them, are apt to mislead many, since the craving for quick results coupled with the dislike of the necessary hard work, are easily stirred up." Sarah, I will just put it very plainly, if you think that you can develop insight without developing the higher concentration abilities of the mind, you are deluding yourself. Yes, Right View is the leading factor after which all the others follow, but if you are dismissing the importance of samadhi (meditation) to the practice, then you probably don't have Right View. You have a distorted view which you probably learned from Kh. Sujin, because it isn't supported by the texts. (Hmmm…hope I'm not sounding too harsh here, but I can't think of a nicer way to say it.) Sarah: Because there is no Andrew or Sarah in truth to do anything. James: Then who is writing this post to me signing her name "Sarah"? Are you an alien who has taken over Sarah's body? Give it back!! ;-)) I believe that anatta means that there is no abiding essence, no permanent self, no separate existence; it doesn't mean that `Sarah' or `Andrew' doesn't exist. You arise, persist, and pass away…you exist as a process, ever changing. Metta, James 41143 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, no 1,2. Hi, Nina - I think I didn't get around to replying to this pot, Nina. In a message dated 1/18/05 10:29:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > you always have a good choice of suttas, thank you for sharing. This is what > I like. > I shall tell you what message I get from this sutta. And what is the message > you get? > =========================== I believe the message I get is the same as you: The importance of exerting effort, the possibility of doing so, and, most of all, encouragement. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41144 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, no 1,2. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/20/05 10:19:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I think I didn't get around to replying to this pot, Nina. > ==================== The intended word was 'post', not 'pot'!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41145 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Dear Sarah, Can I be of further help with with aasaya and anusaya? I also have it on the tape I made. Aasaya denotes good and bad dispositions, and anusaya denotes seven particular kinds of akusala that are called latent tendencies. Nina. op 19-01-2005 09:01 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > p.s Nina, we both recalled K.Sujin using aasaya to refer to good and bad > tendencies or inclinations and when I went through the tapes before, I > heard the same, but no time to check again now. (Azita may!!). But > perhaps it depends on context. I'll clarify when we next visit Bkk. What I > understood was just like in the quote you gave from the Thai comy under > aasaya, bias dentoting the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as > clinging, and also good, such as reununciation. 41146 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 131 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 20-01-2005 01:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I'm having a hard time understanding this section. N: Yes, also the Tiika is very condensed, it does not give more info. Also Tiika to 132 and 133 is short. Tiika 134 about phassa is long. L: Is the meaning that > sankara cetasikas combine themselves or other dhammas into a whole? N: I think that the meaning is that they are in one group or khandha. Cetana or kamma (kamma is actually cetana) is the foundation or chief of the cetasikas in this group. L: Is this combination a matter of coordinating cetasikas? N: Cetana coordinates the work of the accompanying cetasikas and in the case of kusala kamma or akusala kamma, it 'wills' kusala or akusala, and thus it has a double task. Tiika Vis. 81: Forming (abhisa.nkhara.na) is accumulating, acquisition of the task, or coordinating, and because volition is principal in both ways, it is said of the aggregate of formations that it has the characteristic of forming. N: Of the khandha of formations, sankhaarakkhandha, volition is principal (Dispeller of Delusion, p. 22). Volition has its own task and it also coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas. Volition is a universal cetasika accompanying each citta. It arises with the cittas of the four jaatis of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. The word sa"nkharoti also means to prepare, to condition. L: For "agglomeration" you gave the meaning of "heap". A heap is a group, as in "khandha". > What's the difference between a heap and a whole? N: We read in the ŒDispeller of Delusion² 9I, Ch One, Classification of the Aggregates, p. 1) about the meaning of the word khandha. It can be heap (raasi) or category.<...therefore the aggregates (khandhaa) should be understood as having the characteristic of a heap. It is also permissible to say in the sense of a portion (ko.t.thaasa).> The khandhas are classified as past, present, future, and in several other ways. Tiika: N: They are five heaps or categories which are past, present, future, near or far, subtle or coarse. Take seeing: the citta that sees is the khandha of consciousness, and it is accompanied by feeling, sañña and five cetasikas that are included in sankhaarakkhandha, namely: contact, volition, concentration, life faculty and attention. Seeing is also dependent on ruupakkhandha: on eyebase and visible object. The seeing falls away and then it is past. The future becomes the present khandha. The khandhas arise and fall away, they are conditioned dhammas. They are conditioning and conditioned. L: Also it's difficult to resolve the difference between accumulation and > impermanence? N: See above for impermanence. Kamma and good and bad tendencies are accumulated in each citta, and each citta arises and falls away, but it conditions the next citta and so on. Thus accumulations go on from moment to moment, and new kammas and tendencies are accumulated. It goes on from this life to future lives. Accumulation is not contradictory to impermanence. What is accumulated does not stay the same, new accumulations are added all the time. L (from other post):How do we categorize the accumulation of feeling and consciousness? N: Volition and the other sankharakkhandha cetasikas arise together with the other three namakkhandhas. But volition is mentioned separately because it is kamma that is accumulated and can produce a result. Kamma is different from citta and feeling. When using the word accumulation it does not only mean the accumulation of kamma (aayuhana) that produces a result. There is also the word cinaati, and this is said of citta that arranges itself in the continuity of javana in a process. The kusala and akusala javana cittas fall away but they can condition the arising again of similar types of javana cittas by way of natural strong dependence condition. Thus when we use the word accumulation we should also take into account the natural strong dependence condition. The Expositor (p. 84, 85) gives several derivations or word associations of the word citta. Vipaaka citta is also termed citta, because it is accumulated (cito) by kamma and defilements. In the beginning of the chapter on the khandhas the Vis. states that it starts with the consciousness khandha, and then the other khandhas would be understood more easily. We learn about the different types of kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta and also about their conditions. We learnt how different accompanying cetasikas condition the citta. This helps to obtain more understanding of the four namakkhandhas which arise and fall away together. Review of Vis. 81 and Tiika: Tiika: As to the expression, since the rest, beginning with the aggregate of feeling, is easy to understand (when the consciousness aggregate has been understood), this means that this is so because of its single arising etc, and because it is of the same nature etc. in the classification. N: Single arising etc., this means: the four nama khandhas arise and fall away together. For them there are the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution (Dispeller, p. 23). The nama-khandhas that arise together are of the same nature (jaati) of kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. They are of the same plane of citta: sense sphere, rupa-jhana, arupa-jhana or lokuttara. Thus, if the consciousness aggregate is understood first, the other three nama khandhas will be understood more easily. **** Nina. 41147 From: nina Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Pilgrimage India 2 d Pilgrimage India 2 d We have to be truthful in order to understand our own accumulation of akusala. We should remember that the latent tendencies are very tenacious, and that they condition the arising of akusala citta again and again. The arising of akusala is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. Everybody would like to live in a world without wars, but one cannot change the world so long as one does not understand the real cause of akusala. So long as there is the latent tendency of ignorance it conditions the arising of akusala cittas. Citta is the source of good and bad deeds. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching us the real cause of akusala, for teaching us about the latent tendencies and showing how dangerous these tendencies are. In the following suttas the danger is shown of an undeveloped mind. When one neglects mental development, there are conditions for the arising of many kinds of akusala. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Ones (Ch III, § 1-4, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 155-158): ³No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so intractible as an undeveloped mind. An undeveloped mind is, indeed an intractible thing. No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so tractible as a developed mind. A developed mind is, indeed, a tractible thing... No other thing do I know, O monks, that brings so much suffering as an undeveloped and uncultivated mind. An undeveloped and uncultivated mind brings suffering, indeed. No other thing do I know, O monks, that brings so much happiness as a developed and cultivated mind. A developed and cultivated mind brings happiness indeed.² As wisdom develops latent tendencies can be eradicated stage by stage and this means that there will be an end to suffering. The Buddha said that an undeveloped mind brings suffering and a developed mind brings happiness. This is an exhortation not to delay the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears. ***** Nina 41148 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, op 19-01-2005 22:06 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: quotes: N: Yes. But since it is paññaa I do not see how there could be any > doubt. If >> a person has doubt he should ask himself: what do I understand at > this >> moment? > Kel: Vis. XXII 21. Trainers may or may not have the reviewing of > the defilements abandoned and those still remaining. N: I am glad you mention this, I checked it. K: In fact it was > owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the > Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me internally > owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and remain?' > (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. N: I compared B.B, translation and notes. The text is clearer when we take into account that Mahanama was a once-returner. The once-returner does not eradicate a particular defilement such as lobha, dosa and moha, he still clings to sense pleasures. But, these have become attenuated. Already at the stage of sotapanna they cannot lead to evil deeds that produce an unhappy rebirth, but at the stage of the once-returner they are attenuated more. At the stage of the non-returner clinging to sense pleasures is eradicated but not all kinds of clinging. Also dosa is eradicated. At the stage of sotapanna particular defilements are eradicated: all kinds of ditthi and wrong practice, doubt, stinginess and jealousy. B.b. in his notes mentions what you say: ariyans can be mistaken about which defielments are abandoned by which path. I admire B.B.'s notes, but he does not say what is a quote from the Co. and what his own observance. I prefer the whole text of the Co, but I do not have this in Thai nor in Pali. I ask Connie. I can understand this text. He does not have coarse clinging but still he enjoys the home life. He wonders what the cause is that he still has clinging. K: I just don't think it's so clear cut in what actually is known to > ariyas of different grades. The only things I see for sure are the > original 10 vipassana-nanas and magga-vithi. N: Yes, these are very clear cut, aren't they? Even at the second stage of tender insight the views of eternalism and annihilation are abandoned, since he sees that what arises because of conditions has to fall away. There is no annihilation of citta, because each citta that falls away conditions the next one. The attainment of the stage of sotapanna is in the suttas also explained as: the clear and dustless eye of dhamma: all that arises by conditions falls away. K: Beyond that I think vithis can happen in any order and different time frames. N: From the Tipitaka I get it that the order of the four stages is fixed, think of the four pairs of men, indicating the magga-cittas and phalacittas of the four stages. Some people could realize one stage after the other, whereas others had intervals of time in between, or different lives. The sotapanna has to develop on and on right understanding of conditioned realities. At each stage of enlightenment the unconditioned element is experienced by lokuttara pañña. This pañña would not confuse conditioned realities with the unconditioned element. Even if in some cases the ariyan does not review the defilements that were eradicated. K: I don't really have much further to say as I think our positions are just different. N: We are here to study and we can share what we got from our study. Nina. 41149 From: nina Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:16am Subject: Co. to M. N. I, no 14, to Connie Dear Connie, if it is not too much trouble, could you give me the Co, to M. I, no 14, Sihanadavagga, Cuu.ladukkhakkhandhasutta, just the beginning? Just before the Buddha explains about the pleasures of the senses (adinaava...) I have to check something. Thank you, Nina. 41150 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma, to Ken O. Hi Ken O, I really appreciate your nice post. I agree with you that we learn from those who do not agree with the Abhidhamma. It helps us to learn more. Nina. op 20-01-2005 12:18 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > To all those who dont believe in Abhidhamma, thank you for your > discussion, because you make me learn more about it and have more > faith for it. Keep it up also because I learn from you ;-) 41151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma Hi Sarah and James, I really I enjoyed your discussion and the input of both of you. Nina. op 20-01-2005 07:49 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > With intense Abhidhamma study, the mind >> is automatically going to label practically every nama and rupa >> experienced and thus ruin the natural insight one could attain. > … > S: I'm not sure, but if there is this labeling or trying to experience > 'every nama and rupa' (or any nama and rupa), it's quite the wrong > handling of the text, I think. 41152 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 0:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Sarah, > enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different > stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta > (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity > with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non- returner > and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and > arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. > > Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these > different attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations." Kel: This argument is at odds with satipatthana stance of momentary concentration being good enough to achieve magga-vithi. I don't see how you can have it both ways. Either both magga and phala are reachable by momentary concentration or they aren't. In the original statement, "factors of different stages of jhana" is the key for me. It does not imply ability to even be absorbed in the first jhana. - kel 41153 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 0:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Nina, > K: In fact it was > > owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the > > Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me internally > > owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and remain?' > > (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. > N: I compared B.B, translation and notes. The text is clearer when we take > into account that Mahanama was a once-returner. > At the stage of sotapanna particular defilements are eradicated: all kinds > of ditthi and wrong practice, doubt, stinginess and jealousy. > B.b. in his notes mentions what you say: ariyans can be mistaken about which > defielments are abandoned by which path. > I admire B.B.'s notes, but he does not say what is a quote from the Co. and > what his own observance. I prefer the whole text of the Co, but I do not > have this in Thai nor in Pali. I ask Connie. > I can understand this text. He does not have coarse clinging but still he > enjoys the home life. He wonders what the cause is that he still has > clinging. Kel: The way I see it, it only goes to prove my point. If a once- returner is unsure of what exactly is gotten rid of, how can a stream-enterer? The way you state "reviewing" seems to be exact knowledge of what is eradicated and what is not. My point is, some just don't know. How can there be confusion (??!doubt?!?) if it's a true panna every ariya supposedly have? > K: I just don't think it's so clear cut in what actually is known to > > ariyas of different grades. The only things I see for sure are the > > original 10 vipassana-nanas and magga-vithi. > N: Yes, these are very clear cut, aren't they? Even at the second stage of > tender insight the views of eternalism and annihilation are abandoned, since > he sees that what arises because of conditions has to fall away. There is no > annihilation of citta, because each citta that falls away conditions the > next one. > The attainment of the stage of sotapanna is in the suttas also explained as: > the clear and dustless eye of dhamma: all that arises by conditions falls > away. Kel: It's clear what is known by each tender insight due to their descriptions. But how come people who reached the tender insights (even sankharupekkha) go backs to their akusala ways? So to me magga is nothing more than mature panna that one cannot lose anymore. Every sotapanna no longer have potential to commit akuala that will lead to 4 lower realms and the cetasikas that are source of such actions. That doesn't mean every sotapanna know what has taken place and can declare themselves to be such and such. This would account for the fact you get different kinds of sotapannas with varying degrees of lingering in different lokas. > K: Beyond that I think vithis can happen in any order and different time > frames. > N: From the Tipitaka I get it that the order of the four stages is fixed, > think of the four pairs of men, indicating the magga-cittas and phalacittas > of the four stages. Kel: I was referring to reviewing nanas which some put right after magga-vithi. My point was it can happen right away, many days later or never as they might've already achieved higher maggas. I think it's basic knowledge that 8 happen in order precisely because of the phala cittas following magga citta. < N: At each stage of enlightenment the unconditioned element is > experienced by lokuttara pañña. This pañña would not confuse conditioned > realities with the unconditioned element. Even if in some cases the ariyan > does not review the defilements that were eradicated. Kel: Panna in the magga citta would not confuse, yes. But even arahats are capable of javana cittas without panna. So I don't see how that extends out to overall panna aside from particular vithis. > K: I don't really have much further to say as I think our positions are just > different. > N: We are here to study and we can share what we got from our study. Kel: This particular thread to me is approaching diminishing returns. Because I can't change your mind and I doubt you can change mine. So I prefer to agree to disagree and because school started for me I can't do research into texts. - kel 41154 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Kel: This particular thread to me is approaching diminishing > returns. Because I can't change your mind and I doubt you can > change mine. So I prefer to agree to disagree and because school > started for me I can't do research into texts. > > - kel I just wanted you to know that I agree with you and believe that you have made your point well. It is obvious from the commentary that you quote that a sotapanna isn't necessarily going to know that he/she is a sotapanna- and that the same holds true for the other paths and fruits. BTW, how do you know Pali so well? You are one of the few members who I have seen who is able to use Pali in an unpretentious way- just as if you are using natural speech rather than showing off- and it truly amazes me. What is your background? (If you don't mind my asking). How can I learn what you know??? Metta, James 41155 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: and that the same holds true for the other > paths and fruits. Oops…I should have qualified this: except for an arahant. An arahant, according to the suttas, does know that he/she is an arahant. Metta, James 41156 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Vism.XIV,132 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 132. They have the characteristic of forming. Their function is to accumulate. They are manifested as intervening.58 Their proximate cause is the remaining three [immaterial] aggregates. So according to characteristic, etc., they are singlefold. And according to kind they are threefold, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate. As regards these, when associated with profitable consciousness they are profitable, when associated with unprofitable consciousness they are unprofitable, when associated with indeterminate consciousness they are indeterminate. ---------------------- Note 58. Vipphaara--'intervening' here is explained by Pm. (p.484) as vyaapaara (interest or work); not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. See Ch. VI, n.6. Ch. VI, note 6. Vipphandana--'wrong kind of excitement': Pm. says here 'Kilesaparipphandanass' eva nimitta.m hotii ti attho (the meaning is, it becomes the sign for interference by (activity of) defilement' (Pm.170). Phandati and vipphandati are both given only such meanings as 'to throb, stir, twitch' and paripphandati is not in P.T.S. Dict. For the sense of wrong (vi) excitement (phandana) cf. Ch. IV,89, and Ch. XIV,132 and note. There seems to be an association of meaning between vipphaara, vyaapaara, vipphandana, ihaka, and paripphandana (perhaps also aabhoga) in the general senses of interestedness, activity, concern, interference, intervention, etc. 41157 From: Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,132 "They [sankhara cetasikas] are manifested as intervening." Hi Nina, Htoo, and Kel, I was wondering if Burmese or Thai Pali dictionaries can clarify this word "vipphaara" or "vyaapaara" here translated as "intervening". Larry 41158 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Ken O, This was a timely post. Like you, I thank past conditions for allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma. It can be tempting to believe we are 'practitioners of samatha and vipassana' - more so that we are 'jhana masters and Sotapannas.' But the truth is far less flattering, and the Abhidhamma makes that clear. You and I can at least face the ugly truth. Thank conditions! :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi RobK > it is extremely difficult to have faith in the Abhidhamma > and I thank my conditions for having me to know them. And I thank > you, Sarah, Nina, Jon, Sukin and all the dinosuars for the willings > to share and patient to teach me these valuable materials. 41159 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:40pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 103 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (o) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** We are forgetful of realities very often, but reminders to be aware are right at hand. We can be reminded to be aware when we notice our own as well as other people's clinging to all objects and the sorrow caused by clinging. In the Kindred Sayings (III, First Fifty, Chapter 3, §23, Understanding) we read that the five khandhas, that is all conditioned realities which appear in our life, have to be understood as they are. We read that the Buddha, while he was at Såvatthí, said to the monks: * "Monks, I will show you things that are to be understood, likewise understanding. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, are the things to be understood? Body, monks, is a thing to be understood; feeling is a thing to be understood; perception, the activities (saòkhårakkhandha) and consciousness also. These, monks, are 'the things that are to be understood.' And what, monks, is 'understanding?' The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of illusion; that, monks, is called 'understanding'." * If there is awareness and understanding right now of seeing, hearing or any other reality which appears, there will eventually be an end to rebirth. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41160 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Kel, Nina & James, I'd like to butt in here too: --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > K: In fact it was > > > owing to the absense of such reviewing that Mahanama asked the > > > Blessed One, 'What state is there still unabandoned by me > internally > > > owing to which at times states of greed invade my mind and > remain?' > > > (M.i, 91), all of which should be quoted. … S: It's a very interesting point and sutta you've raised Kel and I'm very impressed like James with your familiarity with the texts. While Nina is looking further into the commentary on the sutta itself, let me add the following from the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS transl, STA, ch9, Meditation Practice) which gives further detail. (I'm adding a little more text at the beginning, so some others can follow the discussion too) *** On Magga citta (Path consciousness): "…the path enters the process of absorption fully understanding the truth of suffering, abandoning the truth of arising, realizing the truth of cessation, and by way of cultivation of the truth that is the path." Commentary details follow: " 'Fully understanding (parijaanato): knowing precisely (parichijja) that exactly this is suffering, nothing more nor less….." etc On Phala cittas (Fruition consciousness): "After that, two or three fruit consciousnesses occur and cease, and after that, there is lapsing into the existence continuum [until] the reviewing knowledges occur, once again interrupting the existence-continuum." Commentary details follow, inc. " 'Reviewing knowledges': sense-sphere knowledges which have the path and fruit,etc, as their objects, and with reference to which it is stated 'once liberated, there is the knowledge that one is liberated'. [Vin1 14, S 111 68 - a formula occurring in many places]." *** S: So, I think it's clear that there can be no ignorance of enlightenment having taken place. However, many of Kel's other points regarding defilements are confirmed by these notes: *** More on Paccavekkha.na cittas (Reviewing consciousness): "One who is wise reviews the path, the fruit and then nibbana; he may or may not review the defilements abandoned and those remaining. Cultivated in this way by the six progressive purifications, the fourfold path is called 'purification by knowing and seeing'." Commentary details follow here in full with reference to Mahanama: "Now in order to indicate the level of reviewing, he states the words beginning 'the path, the fruit'. Therein, 'one who is wise reviews the path', thinking, 'this is the path by which I have come'; then he reviews its 'fruit', thinking, 'This indeed is the benefit I have obtained', and then 'nibbana', thinking, 'This dhamma I have realized directly as an object'. Then 'he may or may not review' the defilements abandoned, thinking, 'These are the defilements I have abandoned', and the defilements remaining, thinking, 'These are the ones that remain'. Some trainees review, some do not; what is meant is that this practice depends on one's wish. Indeed, this is why Mahanama the Sakyan asked about the defilements that were not abandoned: 'What is the state, lord, that I have not abandoned inside?' [M1 91; Vism 676 (ch X11,210] For the arahat, however, there is no reviewing of defilements that remain since all defilements have been abandoned. Therefore it should be seen that there are nineteen reviewing knowledges: fifteen for the three trainees and four four the arahat. 'By the six progressive purifications': by progressing through the six purifications, namely the two purifications of conduct and consciousness, which constitute the roots, and the four beginning with the purification of view, which constitute the trunk. It is called the purification of knowing and seeing because of knowing the four truths by direct experience and being purified of the stain of the defilements." *** S: So I think it's clear that if there is not the reviewing of the defilements abandoned, then there isn't this direct knowledge. When it refers to 'thinking' for reviewing, I understand this is direct knowledge, not thinking conceptually. It depends what conditions there are for the sekkhas (trainees) to put their minds to, so to speak. I'm grateful to you, Kel, for raising this whole topic and look forward to anything further any of you add. Metta, Sarah ======= 41161 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies dear Nina, Sarah and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Can I be of further help with with aasaya and anusaya? I also have it on the > tape I made. Aasaya denotes good and bad dispositions, and anusaya denotes > seven particular kinds of akusala that are called latent tendencies. > Nina. Azita: thx, this answers my original question about good latent tendencies. I haven't heard that part of the disc yet, so maybe when I come to it, there will be more understanding - who knows! regarding the discussion in the garden of Clarks Hotel; the matter about doorways bothered me before but I had one of those 'ah ha's. The doorway for the mind door being the bhvanga citta just prior to the manodvaracitta - think I've got the terminology correct! It kind of 'fell into place' - maybe that makes no sense to anyone but me, but just thought i'd tell you about that one :-) > op 19-01-2005 09:01 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > > p.s Nina, we both recalled K.Sujin using aasaya to refer to good and bad > > tendencies or inclinations and when I went through the tapes before, I > > heard the same, but no time to check again now. (Azita may!!). But > > perhaps it depends on context. I'll clarify when we next visit Bkk. What I > > understood was just like in the quote you gave from the Thai comy under > > aasaya, bias dentoting the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as > > clinging, and also good, such as reununciation. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41162 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, On the other difficult thread: --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of > different > > stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the > phalacitta > > (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in > conformity > > with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non- > returner > > and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna > and > > arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. > > > > Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these > > different attainments, depending on the individual¹s > accumulations." > > Kel: This argument is at odds with satipatthana stance of > momentary concentration being good enough to achieve magga-vithi. I > don't see how you can have it both ways. …. S: I'm not sure why you say this. I'd be glad to hear more. As I read the texts, for sukkha vipassakas (dry insight attainers) experience nibbana with magga-vithi of the degree of absorption (because of nibbana being the object), but not with jhana cittas. As discussed in the last post, two or three phala cittas follow the magga citta immediately and then the paccavekkhana cittas (reviewing consciousness). But for these sukkha vipassakas, there can be no further phala samapatti or nirodha samapatti (even for anagamis or arahants). I'm really not very familiar with these areas, so pls anyone correct any mistakes. Htoo has explained the details very thoroughly in some of his DT series, which doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed and questioned further! …. >Either both magga and > phala are reachable by momentary concentration or they aren't. …. S: It is momentary concentration all the way, including at moments of vipassana nana (insights), but as we read, just the magga vithi is accompanied by concentration of the equivalent degree of jhana (although it's not the same as mundane jhana). See the extract from BB's article below.on this point*. … >In > the original statement, "factors of different stages of jhana" is > the key for me. It does not imply ability to even be absorbed in > the first jhana. …. S: I think by jhana factors here, it is referring to those factors arising with jhana cittas themselves, as Htoo put it 'in the vicinity' of lokuttara cittas, I think. (the object of jhana and lokuttara cittas being quite different). Again, I think that I'm on the same page as Htoo on this and would encourage you to read the posts under 'Fruition' in U.P. too. It's a bit of a minefield and rather beyone me for the most part, I'm afraid. So I'd better hand it back to Htoo , Nina and yourself!! Btw, I thought you and KenH were having a good and important discussion and it's fine to end up disagreeing as you did. Your input is very welcome and refreshing too! Metta, Sarah *From BB's article: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34163 Quote: This distinction allows the Commentaries to hold simultaneously two theses regarding the relation of jhaana to the path: (i) every path and fruition attainment, from the stage of stream-entry up, is also a jhaana, and thus all path-attainers are attainers of supramundane jhaana; (ii) not all path-attainers have reached jhaana in the preliminary path leading up to the supramundane path, and thus they need not be attainers of mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana. These two theses can be reconciled because the paths and fruits always occur at a level of concentration corresponding to one of the four jhaanas and thus may be considered jhaanas in their own right, though jhaanas of the supramundane rather than mundane type. These jhaanas are quite distinct from the mundane jhaanas, the exalted states of concentration pertaining to the form-sphere (ruupaavacara). As all path-attainers necessarily attain supramundane jhaana, they fulfil the definition of right concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path, but they may not have attained the form-sphere jhaanas prior to reaching the path. =========== 41163 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > This was a timely post. Like you, I thank past conditions for > allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma. It can be tempting to > believe we are 'practitioners of samatha and vipassana' - more so > that we are 'jhana masters and Sotapannas.' But the truth is far > less flattering, and the Abhidhamma makes that clear. You and I can > at least face the ugly truth. Thank conditions! :-) > Ken H Hi Ken H, Ken O and all Three remarks, for the last time of me, about the history of the Abhidhamma: To Ken H I will say: is it correct to say "I THANK PAST CONDITIONS (for allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma)" ? I don't think so, for me that expression is too much like "Thank God". And the expression "Thank God" is many times used on a hypocritical way. To Ken O I will say: Between the group of people who know that Abhidhamma is taught by the Buddha and all those who don't believe in Abhidhamma there is a third group: those who think Abhidhamma really touches the highest reality and who think the scholars who state the seven books of it are composed in the centuries after the parinibbana of the Buddha. To everyone who think that I was one of the conditions that helped them to appriciate more intense the Abhidhamma, by my opinion that thee books are composed by wise and noble followers of the Buddha, I will say: "You're welcome" Metta Joop 41164 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > BTW, how do you know Pali so well? You are one of the few members > who I have seen who is able to use Pali in an unpretentious way- > just as if you are using natural speech rather than showing off- and > it truly amazes me. What is your background? (If you don't mind my > asking). How can I learn what you know??? Thanks for the reply off-list. I also replied to you off-list. Take care. Metta, James 41165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, op 17-01-2005 17:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: >> N: >> Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up >> (vu.t.thaana) to magga. > > T: Could you please explain the term vu.t.thaana a bit? Is the strength of > vipassana the same as strength (bala) of the five indriyas? N: Vipassana is understanding, pañña that knows dhammas as they are. It has many levels. When the three characteristics are clearly penetrated by pañña an it is highly developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, also all the other enlightenment factors have reached fulfillment. The five indriyas are included in the enlightenment factors and these have become powerful. Vu.t.thaana: emergence. Vis. XXI, 83, insight leading to emergence. When insight has reached culmination, it goes towards emergence, namely Path-consciousness. >> N: When we just read the translation above it would seem that >> concentration is a foremost factor for vipassana. >> But there is more to it, the matter is more complex. > > T: Do you mean that both concentration as samadhi (stillness of mind), > and concentration as a factor of the enlightenment (samadhi > sambojjhanga) are requisites for vipassana? Or is there more to it? N: When vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of those who do not develop jhana. After all, samadhi is a factor of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path and it develops together with right understanding. >> N: As to knowledge, vijjaa and freedom, vimutti, >> the Co explains that this refers to wisdom of the arahatta magga >> and that freedom is phalavimutti, the freedom of >> the fruition of the arahatta. > > T: In other words, does the Co mean that direct knowledge is only > experienced by the Arahat? N: In this context these are the meanings as given above . It depends on the context. There are many levels of vijja, understanding. Of course it has a beginning level. Even the Buddha had to begin at one point in time. T: If that's true, then the ordinary people can > never hope to train for direct knowledge by jumping on the vipassana > wagon without prior trainings in purifications of virtues, consciousness > (samadhi) and views (ditthi)? N: There is not a special order of training as I see it. There are many levels of sila, and this also includes the guarding of the six doors, thus, satipatthana or vipassana. This is what I wrote before: Through satipatthåna there can be training in ³higher síla² (adhi-síla sikkhå), ³higher citta² (adhi-citta sikkhå) and ³higher wisdom² (adhi-paññå sikkhå). As to higher citta or concentration, this includes all levels of concentration, not merely jhåna. Concentration, samådhi, is the cetasika which is one-pointedness, ekaggatå cetasika. It arises with each citta and has the function of focussing the citta on one object. When satipatthåna arises, ekkagatå cetasika ³concentrates² for that short moment on the nåma or rúpa which appears so that understanding of that reality can develop. In the development of samatha concentration is developed to a high degree so that jhåna can be attained, but this cannot be achieved without paññå which has right understanding of the citta and cetasikas which develop calm. In the ³Visuddhimagga² all levels of concentration, jhåna included, are described, but this does not mean that everybody must develop jhåna in order to attain enlightenment. Instead of thinking of classifications and names or thinking of a specific order as to the development of síla, concentration and paññå, we can gradually develop understanding of the nåma and rúpa which appear and then there is training in higher síla, higher citta and higher paññå. Even when attachment arises there can be mindfulness of it and at that moment one does not harm anyone; that is síla. Or we may be inclined to engage in wrong speech, such as slandering or useless speech, but if sati arises and it is aware of nåma or rúpa, there are conditions to abstain from akusala. We speak many times in a day, but do we know whether our speech is kusala or akusala? We need to know the nature of citta so that there can be training in higher síla. We are inclined to observe síla with an idea of self who has síla. When satipatthåna is being developed síla can become free from the wrong view of self. Then there will be purity of síla, ³síla visuddhi². Nina. 41166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,132, vipphaara Hi Larry, op 21-01-2005 01:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "They [sankhara cetasikas] are manifested as intervening." > I was wondering if Burmese or Thai Pali dictionaries can clarify this > word "vipphaara" or "vyaapaara" here translated as "intervening". N: Intervening I find not clear in this context and I rather follow the Tiika. vipphaara, diffusion, pervasion. vi-pharati: to expand. vyaapaara: occupation, work. Vyaapaara or byaapaara, v and b vary, the pronunciation is about in the middle of b and v. Now we have to return again to Tiika Vis. 81: byaapaaraa /patti/ , /abhisandahana.m/ vaa/ , /ubhayathaapi/cetanaapadhaanataaya /work/ acquisition/ /coordinating/ /or/ /also in both ways/by volition being the principle/ Tiika: Forming is accumulating, acquisition of the task, or coordinating, and because volition is principal in both ways, it is said of the aggregate of formations that it has the characteristic of forming. *** Volition accumulates and it also coordinates the task of the other nama dhammas, thus, it has two functions. When it accompanies vipaakacitta or kiriyacitta it merely coordinates the work of the other nama dhammas, it does not accumulate. I find the note to Ch VI the translator refers to not very helpful. Nina. 41167 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Sarah, Let's take Abhidhamma classification into 5 basic jhanas. The only difference between 5th rupa jhana and 4 arupa jhanas is the object; the mental factors accompanying the jhanas cittas are the same. Similiarly, 1st rupa jhana and 1st-jhana based 8 lokuttara magga/phalas (in 121) have the same factors, just a different object. So one can call them lokuttara jhanas, it's just a naming convention to make things consistent (or prove sama samadhi). The way I see your argument is, magga can be achieved without mundane jhanas but phala-samapatti cannot be. Is that right? Otherwise we're just arguing about the name and definition of jhana. When I write jhana, I mean mundane jhanas. Obviously if you also include lokuttara cittas in the word jhana then there would be no argument. >S: But for these sukkha vipassakas, there can be no further phala > samapatti or nirodha samapatti (even for anagamis or arahants). Kel: I think you're combining phala-samapatti and niroda-sampatti unncessarily. Here's a reference by mahai sayadaw about phala- samapatti. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch7.18 His method is basically to meditate on the three lakkhanas until "power of concentration has reached perfection". This is achieving absorption concentration by using lakkhanas as objects as oppose to nimittas. The way and the skill acquired by meditator is the same because it mostly concerns samadhi. So if one is already skilled in mundane jhanas before becoming an ariya, it'll be easy to reach phala-samapatti. For dry-insight workers, they can use the lakkhanas to practice and maintain phala-samapatti without mundane jhanas and nimittas. Without mastery of all 5 rupa and 4 arupa jhanas, there's no possibilty of obtaining nirodha samapatti for anagamis and arahats. There's no arguing about that as it's crystal clear in the texts. To me, phala and nirodha samapattis are MILES apart in terms of the skill required to obtain and you can't combine them. Again phala-samapatti just requires an ability to acquire the object (nibbana) and to stay absorbed in the object. This is very much the same sequence as mundane jhana acquiring the object (nimitta) and to stay absorbed. Nirodha has no object because there's no citta hence no sanna, beating 4th arupa jhana's "sorta- sanna". - kel 41168 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Dear Htoo > > I'm sure you are not writing and publishing for your own fame, not > for self-promotion. > And now I understand how you write your Dhanmma Threads. > > > Joop : I don't know you know it and like it but I like the > book 'Buddhism without beliefs' of Stephen Batchelor > Htoo: How can I access that book. If I have time, I will read it. > Joop: See www.stephenbatchelor.org and the online article > deepagnosticism and that site. > > > Htoo: Do you think there are flaws in Dhamma Threads? > Joop: That's a difficult question, that's why I give two answers > a. Your knowledge is hundred or thousands times mine, so how can I > say if there are flaws, compared with the Dhamma in the texts (1 till > 10) you mentioned ? > b. To me in the Abhidhamma and commentaries one citta is missing; I > made a message (#39844) of that opinion to Sarah and she labeled it > (in # 40035) the "Joop social citta", of course she stated that there > is no need of such a citta. > > > Joop: To me there is a fourth: "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto > yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with > the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no > other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this > means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the > way the Buddha said. … > Htoo: It is wrong to say 4th refuge. There are 3 refuge. All these 3 > are within self-refuge. The Buddha showed the way. The Dhamma paves > the way. The Sangha bring the map. Whoever shows the way, the walker > is > self. That is nself-refuge. This is not to be mixed with 3 refuges. > They are not the same kind. Not the same level. > Do you think that your self is equal to The Buddha, The Dhamma, The > Sangha? > But in triplegem The Buddha = The Dhamma = The Sangha > When The Dhamma is seen The Buddha is seen. When The Dhamma is > attained Sanghahood is attained. > > Joop (now): You say "It is wrong to say 4th refuge." I will say: I > know it's not perfectly expressed what I did mean. > Of course I don't think that my self is equal to the Buddha, The > Dhamma, The Sangha. > But do you say my interpretation of the DN16 quote "trust yourself, > under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said." is > wrong ? > > For the rest: thanks again > > Metta > > Joop --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, I think our communication is good and effective. Your this post is understandable and I do not think there need a reply. But if there is anyting that you would like to discuss just post it and I will be involved. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41169 From: nina Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: sutta and abhidhamma Dear Joop, I have been reflecting on your remarks that you like the narrative style of the suttas but find little inspiration in Abhidhamma, especially in the way it is presented here. You have the impression that it is not based on experience. Thus, reading your post today, you appreciate the Abhidhamma but not the way some people, including me, present it. That is food for thought. You also found the terms kusala and akusala not clear. You are perhaps wondering who tells us what is good or bad, and I understand this. Important questions and I find it useful to consider them. We could consider kusala as: skilfull, beneficial, leading to happy results, and akusala is the opposite. These are terms, but we could verify them in daily life. When we give things for the benefit of others or we are helping others, we can ask ourselves: are such moments different from stinginess or anger? I believe that there is inner peace with kusala and there is agitation with akusala. Kusala and akusala cannot bring the same kind of result, the results must be different. I came across the words of the Dhammapada which you may find helpful: Kusala and akusala have the mind (citta) as their source. I discussed with Lodewijk your remark that we speak about the Abhidhamma without doubt and that you find this uninspiring. We can understand this. Lodewijk said that this is the Western way of approach, one should not be so dead sure about everything. I had the same ideas when I first came to Kh. Sujin, I was wondering, why is she so sure, having no doubts. I also thought that it is good to have doubts. Being a Catholic, like you, I had studied modern catholic philosophers who were existentialists and phenomenologists, and I was still full of those thinkers. Then I started to study the Abhidhamma and found all that I learnt very direct, pertaining to my daily life and very helpful. But nobody else can tell a person to study the Abhidhamma. It can be an inner conviction: this is the word of the Teacher. As to sutta and Abhidhamma: I find the more I read suttas the more I see Abhidhamma in the suttas. We do not have to consider the Abhidhamma as a book, but whenever the sutta speaks about eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind and the objects experienced by means of these we can understand that the sutta speaks about realities of daily life we can experience now. These are conditioned and they are non-self. This is Abhidhamma and then we may find it less dry. Daily life and Abhidhamma, we can begin to see their connection. But again, everyone should find this out for himself. Here we come to your remark that you find that the way it is presented lacks empirism. We learn that cittas experience objects through the different doorways. It may be helpful to consider that the eyedoor is not the eardoor, visible object is not sound. This sounds too simple, but it is something we can verify. But I understand that this is not appealing to everybody. Of course, the seven books of the Abhidhamma are complicated and difficult to study, but we can study the main principles. Therefore a book like "Guide to the Abhidhamma" (Abhidhammattha Sangaha) is helpful. These are only a few thoughts. Nina. 41170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhavanga and mind-door. Dear Azita, I just heard my MP3 about doorways and the mind-door. Kh Sujin was explaining that there must be bhavangacittas between seeing and hearing, otherwise we would see, see, see all the time. Before there is thinking through the mind-door there must be vibrating bhavanga, and soon the object of bhavanga must be abandoned (thrown away, 'thing' in Thai) otherwise there would be the stream of bhavanga on and on. However, there cannot be thinking immediately, there must first be a last bhavangacitta, the arrest bhavanga. This is citta niyama, the fixed order of citta. This last bhavanga is the mind-door, the doorway of the mind-door process cittas that experience an object different from the object of the bhavangacittas. Bhavanga is like being fast asleep. It arises all the time between processes. Thus our life is all the time: being awake, being asleep, being awake, being asleep. This helps us to see how short enjoyment (sanug) in life is, it is interrupted by bhavanga all the time. I like the explanation, Kh Sujin keeps the subject connected with daily life. Nina. op 21-01-2005 10:10 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > the > matter about doorways bothered me before but I had one of those 'ah > ha's. The doorway for the mind door being the bhvanga citta just > prior to the manodvaracitta - think I've got the terminology correct! > It kind of 'fell into place' - maybe that makes no sense to > anyone but me, but just thought i'd tell you about that one :-) 41171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Sarah, thank you, everything is clearer now. I am glad you quoted the T.A. And the text that one is sure to be liberated when one is. What I still do not understand: the sotapanna must know that wrong view is eradicated. Thus, when there is no reviewing, this does not mean that the sotapanna does not know what has been eradicated. Nina. op 21-01-2005 09:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Commentary details follow, inc. " Reviewing knowledges': sense-sphere > knowledges which have the path and fruit,etc, as their objects, and with > reference to which it is stated once liberated, there is the knowledge > that one is liberated'. [Vin1 14, S 111 68 - a formula occurring in many > places] 41172 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:52pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (241) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. This matter would be a bit unreal for some people and they may not believe that there are 31 realms because they cannot directly see these 31 realms. There are people who would not believe what they cannot experinece. But in this matter they would not test for themselves because they will have to go to those realms if they have to believe those realms. This may need to fulfil to go to hell realm, animal realm, peta realm, asurakaya realm by doing akusala or bad things. And they will have to do jhana things to experience brahmahood or they will have to do things that would give rise to rebirth in deva realms if they want to experience devahood. The Buddha preached that there are 31 realms. And the patisandhi cittas that cause rebirth in these 31 realms. When cittas are not in process they are said to be process free and they are called vithi mutta cittas. These cittas indicate the sattas as they will be accepted conventionally. In Abhidhammatthasangaha this portion is called vithi-mutta sangaha and it deals with 31 realms and their implications. In that portion there are '4 sets of 4' or 'catu-catukka'. They are 1. patisandhi catukka or '4 kinds of rebirth' 2. bhumi catukka or ' 4 kinds of realm or sphere' 3. kamma catukka or '4 kinds of kamma' 4. marana-uppatti catukka or ' 4 kinds of arising of death' 4 kinds of rebirth are 1. apaya patisandhi or '1 woeful rebirth' 2. kama sugati patisandhi or '9 kamma good-rebirth' 3. rupa patisandhi or '5 rupa-deva rebirth' 4. arupa patisandhi or '4 arupa-deva rebirth' ----------------------------------------------- total patisandhi = 19 patisandhi (rebirth) There are 4 kinds of bhumi. They are 1. apaya bhumi or ' 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes' 2. kama sugati bhumis or ' 7 kama sugati bhumis' 3. rupa bhumis or '16 rupa brahma bhumis' 4. arupa bhumis or ' 4 arupa brahma bhumis' ------------------------------------------------------- total bhmuis = 31 bhumis 4 apaya bhumis are 1. hell realm or niriya bhumi 2. animal realm or tiracchanna bhumi 3. hungry ghost realm or peta bhumi 4. demon realm or asurakaya bhumi 7 kama sugati bhmus are (in ascending order) 1. human realm or manussa bhumi 2. catumaharajika bhumi or 4-deva-kings realm 3. tavatimsa bhumi or realm of 33 4. yama bhumi 5. tusita bhumi 6. nimmanarati bhumi 7. paranimmita-vassavati bhumi 16 rupa brahma bhumis ( decending order) 16.akanittha, 15.sudassii, 14.sudassaa, 13.atappas, 12.avihaa 11.asannisatta, 10.vehapphala 9.subhakinhna, 8.appamanaasubha, 7.parittaasubhaa 6.aabhassara, 5.appamanaabhaa, 4.parittaabhaa 3.maha-brahma, 2.brahma-purohita, 1.brahmaparisajja The uppermost 5 are separate realms and they are called 5 pure abode or 5 suddha-vaasa bhumis. They all are ariyas and they are anagamis or arahats. They are equated with catuttha jhana bhumis because the concentration in these brahmas are equate-able with catuttha jhanas. After exclusion of these 5 realms, many lives in the past of The Buddha Gotama had been in any of remaining realms. These also include 4 woeful planes, 4 arupa bhumis, 11 rupa brahma bhumis [after exclusion of 5 suddha-vaasa bhumis from 16 rupa brahma bhumis], and 7 kama sugati bhumis. Sammasambuddha will never have been reborn in any of 5 suddhavaasa bhumis or 5 pure abode. Because these bhumis are reborn with already enlightened mind up to 3rd stage. Sammasambuddhas attain all their enlightenments in their last life. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41173 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Nina - I apolgize for jumping to conclusion about what you thought with respect to a few things as seen in the following quotes from the earlier messgage. N: I meant to say: anything that is real and appears can be object of vipassana, thus also thinking. N: If that would not be the case one would try and try to concentrate on nama and rupa, but that would not help. Pannaa has to see them as conditioned, not caused by a self. ------------------------------------- N: Tep, thanks for the article, but now I cannot read it, it is too long. Could you give a summary and render especially what you yourself think about it. T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Perhaps I have to clarify a little more what I said. 41174 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: - the cycle and the arahat, Htoo. Dear Nina - In message # 41102 you kindly answer one of my questions about Sotapanna. N: Tep's remark whether it is just sufficient to understand D.O. in order to become a sotapanna: For us worldlings the links of the D.O. are merely names, we have not realized the true nature of dhammas. All stages of insight up to enlightenment have to be realized in order to understand the true meaning of D.O. For instance, we do not realize what seeing is. Seeing is vipakacitta, it is pure nama, not mixed with rupa. We confuse seeing and visible object. Although they are together they have different characteristics, and only sati sampajañña can realize these one at a time. At the second stage of tender insight there is a growing understanding of kamma and vipaka, dhammas are seen as conditioned realities. The D.O. is also an explanation of the second and third noble Truth: clinging (the cause of dukkha) and the cessation of dukkha. T: Thank you very much for pointing out that the worlding's level of D.O. understanding just consists of labels associated with definitions and logical relationship among them; while the Noble disciple's understanding of D.O. requires realization of "all stages of insight up to enlightenment". N: The sotapanna has clearly understood the four noble Truths. Thus, all stages of insight knowledge have to be realized before the D.O. can be truly understood. T: The Vera Sutta does not specifically states that all stages of insight knowledge must be realized before the D.O. can be "truly understood". Looking at the description of the D.O. knowledge in the Vera Sutta, I think it is not deep -- there is no clue that relates to "all stages of insight knowledge". Here is how it goes: "And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment? "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that. [endquote] Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo and Tep, > I try to add something about D.O. and this is also connected with Tep's Q. > whether it is sufficient to understand the D.O, to become a sotapanna. 41175 From: Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,132, vipphaara Hi Nina, Could we translate "sankhara manifest as vyaapaara" as "coordinators (motivators?) manifest as constructive activity" (aka 'work')? By 'constructive' I mean both 'goal oriented' with an implicit link to lobha because of the association between 'intend' and 'desire', and additive in the sense of combining elements into a group. I think the difference between a heap and a whole is that in a heap the various elements are not connected but in a whole the various elements are _conceptually_ connected. In this sense sankhara cetasikas construct a 'person', either rightly or wrongly understood. 'Constructive activity' also has to have a future fruitional sense of consequences of that activity in order to account for kamma via intention. It seems to be the unique characteristic of intention that it has future consequences. It looks like 'accumulation' is used in two senses in the analysis of sankhara: 1. accumulation in the sense of storing-up kamma and habits, and 2. in the sense of forming a (seemingly?) integrated group of elements. It is a little difficult to understand whether 'accumulation' in either sense refers to a reality. My guess is that it refers to a plurality of realities or dhammas (realities and concepts). Larry -------------------------- N: "Intervening I find not clear in this context and I rather follow the Tiika. vipphaara, diffusion, pervasion. vi-pharati: to expand. vyaapaara: occupation, work." 41176 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:30pm Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Nina - I am glad to read your message # 41165 which is a detailed explanation of things that were unclear to me in the past. The passage from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What is the title of this publication? You use the term satipatthana rather than sati (mindfulness) or samma- sati. Is there a special meaning about satipatthana beyond the Four Foundations of Mindfulness [DN 22]? N: When vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of those who do not develop jhana. After all, samadhi is a factor of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path and it develops together with right understanding. T: Is sama-nana the Pali for "right understanding"? There is no samma- nana in the Eightfold Path and neither samma-ditthi nor samma- sankhappa is a good fit for right understanding, at least from my understanding. Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of those who do not develop jhana."? I only know the suttas that say samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). I am grateful for your dhamma dana that has helped me become less ignorant (although I am not free from doubts, yet). Kindest regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 17-01-2005 17:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > >> N: > >> Vipassana that has strength is the condition for rising up > >> (vu.t.thaana) to magga. > > 41177 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi, Sarah, Kel, Nina, James and others As a matter of interest, the BB/Narada translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha ('A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma') has a similar passage. Chapter IX deals with the 7 Stages of Purification, the last of which, Purification of Knowledge and Vision, refers to the attainment of stream-entry. At par. 34 of Ch. IX (p.354) the text describes the moments leading up to the arising of magga citta, followed by two or three moments of phala citta, then subsidence into bhavanga citta. It continues: 'Then, arresting the life-continuum, reviewing knowledge occurs. The wise person reviews the path, fruit, Nibbaana, and he either reviews or does not review the defilements destroyed and the remaining defilements.' It seems that all attainers review the path, fruit and Nibbaana. I note also that the 4 functions of magga citta include as their third the *realisation* (i.e., more than mere 'experiencing') of Nibbaana. Jon sarah abbott wrote: >S: ... let me add the >following from the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS transl, >STA, ch9, Meditation Practice) which gives further detail. (I'm adding a >little more text at the beginning, so some others can follow the >discussion too) >*** >On Magga citta (Path consciousness): > >"…the path enters the process of absorption fully understanding the truth >of suffering, abandoning the truth of arising, realizing the truth of >cessation, and by way of cultivation of the truth that is the path." > >Commentary details follow: " 'Fully understanding (parijaanato): knowing >precisely (parichijja) that exactly this is suffering, nothing more nor >less….." etc > >On Phala cittas (Fruition consciousness): > >"After that, two or three fruit consciousnesses occur and cease, and after >that, there is lapsing into the existence continuum [until] the reviewing >knowledges occur, once again interrupting the existence-continuum." > >Commentary details follow, inc. " 'Reviewing knowledges': sense-sphere >knowledges which have the path and fruit,etc, as their objects, and with >reference to which it is stated 'once liberated, there is the knowledge >that one is liberated'. [Vin1 14, S 111 68 - a formula occurring in many >places]." >*** >S: So, I think it's clear that there can be no ignorance of enlightenment >having taken place. However, many of Kel's other points regarding >defilements are confirmed by these notes: >*** >More on Paccavekkha.na cittas (Reviewing consciousness): > >"One who is wise reviews the path, the fruit and then nibbana; he may or >may not review the defilements abandoned and those remaining. > >Cultivated in this way by the six progressive purifications, the fourfold >path is called 'purification by knowing and seeing'." > >Commentary details follow here in full with reference to Mahanama: > >"Now in order to indicate the level of reviewing, he states the words >beginning 'the path, the fruit'. Therein, 'one who is wise reviews the >path', thinking, 'this is the path by which I have come'; then he reviews >its 'fruit', thinking, 'This indeed is the benefit I have obtained', and >then 'nibbana', thinking, 'This dhamma I have realized directly as an >object'. > >Then 'he may or may not review' the defilements abandoned, thinking, >'These are the defilements I have abandoned', and the defilements >remaining, thinking, 'These are the ones that remain'. Some trainees >review, some do not; what is meant is that this practice depends on one's >wish. Indeed, this is why Mahanama the Sakyan asked about the defilements >that were not abandoned: 'What is the state, lord, that I have not >abandoned inside?' [M1 91; Vism 676 (ch X11,210] > > 41178 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Joop It is interesting to talk to you because of your open minded and inquisitive approach. Whatever we think whether Abhidhamma is compose by Buddha himself or later Arahants, it is also based on our concept of what we going to believe. The need or urge to defend ones believe only reinforce the concept of self. So in a sutta I recalled, Buddha preach a method is that "this is taught by Buddha or this is not dhamma" - something like that - I now only to start to understand why it is said so in this way. Faith is kusala, as it helps us to listen to dhamma, increase panna but there is always danger in very dhamma. So my method is still treat all kusala or aksuala as Anatta. Cheers! Ken O 41179 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:18pm Subject: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry Thanks for coming in with these comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon and Howard, > > I see you are discussing deliberate practice. What does this word > "deliberate" mean to you? Howard and I have somewhat different understandings as to the conditions necessary for the development of insight, and I used the term `deliberate practice' to characterise Howard's approach (although Howard himself tends to mention the mental factor of intention (cetana) in this context). So it does not have a precise meaning in a Dhamma context. To my understanding of `practice' as used in the texts, the term `deliberate practice' would be something of a contradiction in terms. > I would think one possibility is "strongly intentional with an > expectation of a particular result", or "intending a particular result". > It is true that there are particular results that arise from javana > cittas, intentional consciousnesses, and these results follow a fixed > order, kusala consciousnesses result in kusala results. So in this sense > intentions are always accomplished. In conventional terms I would agree that `deliberate' and `intentional' are synonyms, but when we get to cetana cetasika and the javana cittas then I see no connection between the two. Although cetana is translated as `intention', it is not `an intention'; that is a conventional expression referring I think to a kind of thinking. Cetana is kamma and its result is vipaka, but I would not refer to vipaka as being the `accomplishment of an intention'. > Another possibility for "deliberate" is "prompted" or "unprompted". I'm > not sure how this works out in terms of tranquility and insight. On a > sense sphere level I would think kusala cittas could be either prompted > or unprompted, but jhana cittas and lokuttara cittas are not classified > in this way. Does that mean they are not deliberate? Clearly, > tranquility and insight is cultivated by all Buddhists. I agree with the relevance of prompted and unprompted to this discussion. There are times when kusala arises only because it has been prompted, whether by another or by oneself. Now when kusala arises because of prompting by oneself, it can appear to be the case that the kusala was `deliberate'. But to my understanding this would be just another instance of the operation of conditions; such `deliberateness' is neither a necessary condition for, nor a means of making occur, the arising of kusala. (A partial exception has to be noted here in that, when kusala has been developed to the strength of being a power (`bala'), it can be aroused *more or less* at will, but always subject to conditions of course!) > Finally, "deliberate" could refer to a sense of self as doer. This is > clearly a wrong view. If you are prompted to give and you respond by > giving with a sense of self as giver I would think the appropriate > response would be to go ahead and give the gift but let go of the sense > of self as giver. Similarly, if you are open to the Buddha's prompting > to cultivate tranquility and insight but a sense of self as meditator > arises the "right" response is to abandon that sense of self but > continue with the practice. I agree that conventionally deliberate action is likely to be accompanied by a strong sense of self. However, I see the abandoning of that sense of self as being achievable only by developed insight, and not something that can be done deliberately (i.e., by dint of intention or resolution). Thanks for the comments. Jon 41180 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:41pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: … And to ignore the conventional actions urged by the Buddha throughout the Sutta Pitaka (and I see that almost *everywhere*) is, in fact, to put "Buddhists" in exactly the same boat as non- Buddhists as far as "progress" towards liberation is concerned. … > J: Surely there can be kusala of any kind arising without deliberate > practice. Your own experience in life confirms this, I'm sure. --------------------------------------- Howard: No more so for a "Buddhist" than for anyone else. Jon: Kusala of different kinds arises because of conditions, and since those conditions apply equally for everyone, it is correct to say that the "Buddhist" and the "non-Buddhist" are in the same boat. One of those conditions is of course one's previous accumulated kusala, and as to this it cannot be said that one group is better endowed than the other. But another important factor is the appreciation of the advantages of kusala and the dangers of akusala, and in this regard having heard and understood the teachings is a great asset (regardless of one's general level of accumulated kusala). When it comes to kusala of the level of insight in particular, the hearing of the teachings in the present lifetime is a prerequisite. The necessary conditions for insight development as explained in the texts are: hearing the teachings about insight knowledge presented in a way that is appropriate for our particular level of understanding and accumulated wrong views; reflecting on what has been heard; and the relating of what has been heard and properly understood to the present moment. I believe that if these conditins have been met then awareness can arise and insight can be developed, without the need for anything further in the way of conscious/deliberate `practice' on the part of the individual. So while there is a sense in which everyone is in the same boat, it is also true to say that only the person who has heard and understood the teachings has the potential to develop insight in this lifetime. And the question as to how that development occurs needs a lot of careful study, as it is not easily grasped (I am very much still learning). Jon 41181 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep > Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when > vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of > those who do not develop jhana."? I only know the suttas that say > samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). In the Abhidhamma, concentration cetasikas is an universal cetasikas, so one develop vipassana, one develop samadhi. Ken O 41182 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi Tep > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was > translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. In Abhidhamma practise, every moment is a practise, we cannot chose whether one sense that come in or another will not. Abhidhamma practise is a daily living practise where one look at senses that comes to the mind. In abhidhamma one can develop panna even while bathing, eating, walking lesiureing down the park etc. There is no deliberate action to choose to nor to choose. It is just knowing them as they arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna. It is a practise of living moment ;-) Ken O (today has been less busy hopefully it will be like that for the rest of the month - lobha ;-)) 41183 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:02am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 104 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (p) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Questions i How can we know that there is a next life? ii Which kinds of cetanå are a link in the Dependant Origination? iii Why is cetanå which accompanies magga-citta not kammaformation? iv Kusala kamma is capable of producing vipåka and thus it is a link in the Dependant Origination. Why does it still make sense to perform kusala kamma? ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 41184 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:09am Subject: Hi from Phil Hello all Very mysterious. Our computer hasn't turned on for several weeks - well, it turns on, but the screen remains black except for a very faint hint of light - but today it is working. I don't know how long this will last so I'll just send along a quick greeting while I can. I am pressing ahead in , gently, in Dhamma, rereading Abhidhamma- realted material I studied last year, and still engrossed in Samyutta Nikaya. Lately I've been reconnecting to my Japanese language study, so am trying to read Dhamma material in Japanese. This means Mahayana, and I am finding some interesting variations. (It seems "emptiness" often appears as a fourth characteristic) But I will have to make a trek to the only Theravada temple in Tokyo to pick up something, and will ask Rob K to send along the Japanese translation of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" that his students are working on. (He did before, but alas I lost it when the computer went down in December.) Well, that's all for now. We'll see how long the computer is usable. Metta, Phil p.s Do computer experts out there recognize the computer problem I'm referring to? It comes on, but the screen is dark. But lo and behold, today it is working fine. What is your diagnosis? Thanks for any feedback- off-list would be better I guess. 41185 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil Hi Phil & KenO, --- Philip wrote: > Very mysterious. Our computer hasn't turned on for several weeks - > well, it turns on, but the screen remains black except for a very > faint hint of light - but today it is working. I don't know how long > this will last so I'll just send along a quick greeting while I can. > ... Thx for letting us know - and really hope it keeps working a little longer for all our sakes - missing your friendly posts...Sounds like this prob has been beyond even Naomi's techno skills:-(. ...and KenO, hope you manage to find some further free time so that we hear more from you and your good cheer too:-). Metta, Sarah ======== 41186 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:38am Subject: Re: sutta and abhidhamma Hello Nina, Joop and all > I discussed with Lodewijk your remark that we speak about the Abhidhamma > without doubt and that you find this uninspiring. We can understand this. > Lodewijk said that this is the Western way of approach, one should not be so > dead sure about everything. I can't remember now which Nikaya it is in, but there is in my opinion a very impportant sutta that gets at this issue. It is about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. Does anyone know the sutta I'm referring to? We will never get anywhere if we are always held back by an excess of rational investigation. And the sutta I refer to above tells us that we can let go and experience the benefits of faith without sacrificing the right to step back and see the truth in a different way at some point. We can benefit a lot from having faith that cittas rise and fall away in a very momentary way long before we have begun to develop insight that will bring us proof through direct experience of this rising and falling, for example. I've been finding myself taking bad moments as vipaka. When I first came across the idea, my rational mind protested. I remember asking Nina how on earth it could be a result of kamma if a drunken man walks by my house and bellows in rage at night - how could that unpleasant sound be vipaka? I don't protest anymore. It is very liberating to take things as vipaka - and taking things in this way *doesn't* mean sacrificing autonomy. It's kind of a game, in a way - playacting for me still, at this point. But very liberating. I just don't get caught up in stories as much anymore thanks to it, and I find myself not reacting in ways that will create more bad kamma. This is all done on faith. But it really does feel very liberating. Ah, my first ramble in weeks. Feels great. Anyways, back to the point - I think we *can* be dead sure and have reservations at the same time. Another one of those paradoxes, like the one about crossing the flood by not standing still and not pressing forward. Metta, Phil 41187 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard Thanks or bringing up some specific uttas for discussion. Here is the relevant part of each of suttas No 2, 3 and 4 from your list and my comments on them (these are not exact quotes from the translation but are based closely on it): **************************************** No. 2 “Abandon evil! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness. Cultivate good! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness.â€? I see the message here as being, that the abandoning of akusala and the cultivation of kusala is indeed possible and is the way to happiness. However, I do not see this sutta as saying anything about the means whereby evil is abandoned and good cultivated. **************************************** No. 3 “Thus should one train oneself: ‘We shall not entertain any I-making [wrong view], mine-making [craving] or underlying tendency to conceit [conceit]; and we shall enter and dwell in the liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, so that we are no longer subject to I-making, mine-making and the underlying tendency to conceit.’ “When a monk [achieves this] he is called a monk who has cut off craving and removed the fetters, one who, by fully breaking through conceit, has made an end to suffering.â€? I would see this sutta as identifying wrong view, craving and conceit as bonds that tie us to continued existence, and as identifying the factor of wisdom as the way to break those bonds. I would not read it as advocating any particular conventional action or behaviour, for instance resolving/repeating ‘I shall not entertain any I-making’; I believe that would be an overly-literal reading of the sutta. **************************************** No. 4 “Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one’s parents.â€? I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything in particular. **************************************** Howard, no doubt we have different views on these suttas ;-)) If you see them as prescribing conventional actions, practices or behaviour as part of the development of insight, I’d be interested to know what that would be in each case. Jon PS On sutta No. 1 I have nothing to add to Nina’s comments for the time being. upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Phil and all) - > >... > With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to >prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of >selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I think are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: > > (II, i, 5) > (II, ii, 9) > (III, 32) > (III, 45) > (IV, 12) > >With metta, >Howard > > 41188 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/22/05 3:09:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. > ------------------------------ Howard: That depends, I believe, on the person involved, and on his/her status. What of a non-returner's watching of the mind? To the extent there is lobha in doing that as a practice, is would be VERY subtle! And what if there is lobha? Even not so subtle? Does that make the practice worthless? If that is so, then, inasmuch as we all start immersed in the three poisons, there is no escape!! ---------------------------- In Abhidhamma> > practise, every moment is a practise, we cannot chose whether one > sense that come in or another will not. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Quite true! What can be influenced is reaction. ------------------------------------- Abhidhamma practise is a> > daily living practise where one look at senses that comes to the > mind. In abhidhamma one can develop panna even while bathing, > eating, walking lesiureing down the park etc. > -------------------------------- Howard: It "can"? And might it also not? And what makes the difference? ------------------------------- There is no deliberate> > action to choose to nor to choose. It is just knowing them as they > arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca > or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna. It is a > practise of living moment ;-) -------------------------------- Howard: Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. You say "It is just knowing them as they arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna." What is it that determines in a person whether or not s/he "just knows them as they arise"? What is it that results in pa~n~na being operative. If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people. Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? ------------------------------------------ > > Ken O > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41189 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:19am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Hi Ken and Howard - It is a great discussion topic that you both started - how to practice awareness with thorough comprehension (of the cittas) in the present moment without a slightest desire(lobha). K: Today has been less busy hopefully it will be like that for the rest of the month - lobha ;-). T: Yes, that is a desire. But can you be aware of the situation, knowing that it is not permanent (i.e. it comes to pass), and let go of it ? If you can, then there is no lobha. When there is no tanha, there is no attachment. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was > > translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is > intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from > taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will > be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way > will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. > This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. > > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. In Abhidhamma > practise, every moment is a practise, we cannot chose whether one > sense that come in or another will not. Abhidhamma practise is a > daily living practise where one look at senses that comes to the > mind. In abhidhamma one can develop panna even while bathing, > eating, walking lesiureing down the park etc. There is no deliberate > action to choose to nor to choose. It is just knowing them as they > arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca > or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna. It is a > practise of living moment ;-) > > Ken O > (today has been less busy hopefully it will be like that for the rest > of the month - lobha ;-)) > 41190 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: sutta and abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear Joop, > I have been reflecting on your remarks that you like the narrative style of > the suttas but find little inspiration in Abhidhamma, especially in the way > it is presented here. You have the impression that it is not based on > experience. Thus, reading your post today, you appreciate the Abhidhamma but > not the way some people, including me, present it. That is food for thought. > You also found the terms kusala and akusala not clear. Dear Nina (and Phil), Thanks for your helpful words. Do they help? I don't know, processes take time. Offline I send you the draft of a article on Western (or 'Gobal') Buddhism that possibly will be published in a Dutch Journal this spring. My problem is not that the Abhidhamma is dry (I liked to study dry stuff like mathematics). My problem is that the Dhamma is frozen, made a system in which nothing is skipped, that there is not a drip of anarchy in it. And that it's a body of knowledge that can not change (any more). Abhidhamma is like a medicine: when is take a optimum dosis then it's healthy but when taken too much then it's unhealthy. To me on this moment the optimum dosis is not very high. Hoe do I know that I'm right with that? Trust myself. As I said to Htoo some days ago. "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge." (Parinibbana Sutta, DN 16). In my interpretation this means: trust yourself, under the condition that you practice in the way the Buddha said. I have the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (edited by BB) at home and spend much time with it last summer. When I got the impression that in my insight-meditation experience phenomena that possibly can be explained by reading again, I will do. And maybe I go again to a Abhidhamma-retreat in Naarden this summer. And about the terms kusala and akusala or the terms good and bad; well I think I never invented them myself if other people had not said to me that these dichotomies exist. To me sila is simple: I try to live a ethical life (the precepts) and try to be mindful in daily life, again and again and again; and that's all, for the rest there is no need to talk about ethics. Phil is right when he states: "We can benefit a lot from having faith that cittas rise and fall away in a very momentary way long before we have begun to develop insight that will bring us proof through direct experience of this rising and falling." What I want to understand know who rising and falling relates to the principle of anicca (empiness as anicca) but for a reason I don't understand the word 'anicca' (and 'anatta') cannot be found in the Index of CMA. To me 'anicca' is the mechanism I have faith in that it is true, so I have the faculty to have faith. Metta Joop 41191 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Ken O. - Here sama-samadhi is not just samadhi, although the two terms have been interchangeable by some translators of the suttas. Sama- samadhi is right concentration and is defined by the four jhanas as follows: 'And what, monks, is the concentration faculty? Herein, monks, the ariyan disciple, having made relinquishment his basis, attains concentration, attains one-pointedness of mind. Secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with delight (piti) and pleasure (sukha) born of seclusion. With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he enters and abides in the second jhana, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind, without applied and sustained thought, with delight and pleasure born of concentration. With the calming down of delight, he enters and abides in the third jhana, dwelling equanimous, collected and mindful, feeling pleasure with the body, on account of which ariyans say: 'He has a pleasant abiding who is equanimous and collected.' With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and the previous fading away of joy and grief, he enters and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither pain nor pleasure, with complete purity of equanimity and recollection (sati). This, monks, is called the concentration faculty.' [SN XLVIII,1.10] Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when > > vipassana develops also samadhi develops. Even in the case of > > those who do not develop jhana."? I only know the suttas that say > > samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). > > In the Abhidhamma, concentration cetasikas is an universal cetasikas, > so one develop vipassana, one develop samadhi. > > Ken O > 41192 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - As preamble, I think I'll just say that we certainly disagree on this one, and there seems little prospect of a rapprochement in sight! ;-)) I'll add just a couple brief comments below. In a message dated 1/22/05 9:43:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > Thanks or bringing up some specific uttas for discussion. Here is the > relevant part of each of suttas No 2, 3 and 4 from your list and my > comments on them (these are not exact quotes from the translation but > are based closely on it): > > **************************************** > No. 2 > “Abandon evil! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness. > Cultivate good! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness.â€? > > I see the message here as being, that the abandoning of akusala and the > cultivation of kusala is indeed possible and is the way to happiness. > > However, I do not see this sutta as saying anything about the means > whereby evil is abandoned and good cultivated. ------------------------------------------ Howard: That's correct. This sutta does not discuss method. But it *does*instruct the hearer to abandon evil, and states that it is possible to do so. ------------------------------------------- > > **************************************** > No. 3 > “Thus should one train oneself: ‘We shall not entertain any I-making > [wrong view], mine-making [craving] or underlying tendency to conceit > [conceit]; and we shall enter and dwell in the liberation of mind, > liberation by wisdom, so that we are no longer subject to I-making, > mine-making and the underlying tendency to conceit.’ > “When a monk [achieves this] he is called a monk who has cut off craving > and removed the fetters, one who, by fully breaking through conceit, has > made an end to suffering.â€? > > I would see this sutta as identifying wrong view, craving and conceit as > bonds that tie us to continued existence, and as identifying the factor > of wisdom as the way to break those bonds. I would not read it as > advocating any particular conventional action or behaviour, for instance > resolving/repeating ‘I shall not entertain any I-making’; I believe that > would be an overly-literal reading of the sutta. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: But you ignore the opening phrase: "Thus should one train oneself". I take that to mean exactly what it says. --------------------------------------------- > > **************************************** > No. 4 > “Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into > homelessness, service to one’s parents.â€? > > I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular > forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything > in particular. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: My point with regard to this sutta was the use of 'prescribed'. What is prescribed or recommended to be done is not just *described* as being useful. The following is the dictionary entry for 'prescribe': ___________________________ Main Entry: pre·scribe Pronunciation: pri-'skrIb Function: verb Inflected Form(s): pre·scribed; pre·scrib·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Latin praescribere to write at the beginning, dictate, order, from prae- + scribere to write â€"more at SCRIBE Date: 15th century intransitive senses 1 : to lay down a rule : DICTATE 2 : [Middle English, from Medieval Latin praescribere, from Latin, to write at the beginning] : to claim a title to something by right of prescription 3 : to write or give medical prescriptions 4 : to become by prescription invalid or unenforceable transitive senses 1 a : to lay down as a guide, direction, or rule of action : ORDAIN b : to specify with authority 2 : to designate or order the use of as a remedy - pre·scrib·er noun ----------------------------------------------- > **************************************** > > Howard, no doubt we have different views on these suttas ;-)) If you > see them as prescribing conventional actions, practices or behaviour as > part of the development of insight, I’d be interested to know what that > would be in each case. > > Jon ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41193 From: nina Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:16am Subject: Vis. XIV, 132 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 132 and Tiika. 132. They have the characteristic of forming. Their function is to accumulate. They are manifested as intervening. N: vipphaara, rendered by the translator as interest or intervening. The Tiika explains here the meaning as follows: the manifestation is being with an occupation (sabyaapaara: sa is with, vyaaparaa is occupation). As we have seen, the Tiika to Vis 81 clarifies: N: Volition accumulates and it also coordinates the task of the other nama dhammas, thus, it has two functions. When it accompanies vipaakacitta or kiriyacitta it merely coordinates the work of the other nama dhammas, it does not accumulate. Text Vis: Their proximate cause is the remaining three [immaterial] aggregates. N: The four naamakkhandhas arise and fall away together. They condition each other by way of conascent-condition and also by mutuality-condiiton. When viññaa.nakkhandha, citta, arises, also feeling, saññaa and sa²nkhaarakkhandha arise. None of these khandhas can arise without the others. Text Vis: So according to characteristic, etc., they are singlefold. N: As we have seen, they have the characteristic of forming. The plural is used, but cetanaa is the principal. Text Vis: And according to kind they are threefold, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate. As regards these, when associated with profitable consciousness they are profitable, when associated with unprofitable consciousness they are unprofitable, when associated with indeterminate consciousness they are indeterminate. N: They can be kusala, akusala or avyaakata which includes vipaaka and kiriya. Thus, they can be of four jaatis. This reminds us that the khandhas are different all the time. It depends on the appropriate conditions of which jaati they are. All the time there are different combinations of the cetasikas accompanying citta. The conditions have to be just right for such or such combination and this combination is very temporary. There is a concurrence of conditions for each moment of citta and its accompanying cetasikas. This shows us that there is no self who can direct citta and cetasikas to be in this or that way. **** Nina. 41194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,132, vyaapaara, 2. Hi Larry, op 22-01-2005 02:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could we translate "sankhara manifest as vyaapaara" as "coordinators > (motivators?) manifest as constructive activity" (aka 'work')? N: I repeat the Tiika to Vis. 132, I am doing just now: Volition accumulates and it also coordinates the task of the other nama dhammas, thus, it has two functions. When it accompanies vipaakacitta or kiriyacitta it merely coordinates the work of the other nama dhammas, it does not accumulate kamma. It is helpful to compare with other Co such as the Expositor and the T.A. (p. 56) which follows the Expositor: < Volition (cetanaa) is what wills; it directs itself and associated dhammas onto the object, or it achieves the task of forming what it formed. Since it is indeed foremost in forming, the Suttanta section of the analysis of the aggregate of formations of the Vibha"nga quotes the statement that 'formations (sa"nkhaara) are what construct (abhisa"nkharonti) the conditioned (sa"nkhata), and explains that there exists volition born of contact of the eye, etc. Volition has the characteristic of willing. It should be seen like a senior apprentice or a master carpenter. etc., who accomplishes others' work as well as his own.> You said above: . But I think that we should distinguish the two functions of cetana which is foremost. L: By 'constructive' I mean both 'goal oriented' with an implicit link to > lobha because of the association between 'intend' and 'desire', and > additive in the sense of combining elements into a group. N: Intention is a translation of volition. It wills kusala and akusala. I do not think merely of lobha, it can go together with all kinds of good or bad qualities. They all assist cetana in forming, in accumulating kamma. L: I think the difference between a heap and a whole is that in a heap the various elements are not connected but in a whole the various elements are _conceptually_ connected. In this sense sankhara cetasikas construct a 'person', either rightly or wrongly understood. N: I think all five khandhas make up what we call a person. You and I are: five khandhas or: citta, cetasika and rupa. As to heap: I do not think there is much meaning behind this word, except that it denotes khandha. Heap (rasi) or category pertains to each of the five khandhas (Dispeller, p. 1). This Co says also of rupa (p. 6) < And this-shows all materiality as the materiality aggregate by its being heaped together under the characteristic of being molested. For there is no materiality aggregate other than materiality.> Thus, all rupas are grouped into one mass or category. The same for each of the other khandhas. If you like you can call it a whole, but, it changes all the time. Certainly, there is a connection or combination of all these cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha. Cetanaa is the chief, but when it motivates a deed, sobhana cetasikas or akusala cetasikas, and also the universals and particulars, they all cooperate in performing a deed that can bring result later on. Cetana coordinates them all. L: 'Constructive activity' also has to have a future fruitional sense of > consequences of that activity in order to account for kamma via > intention. It seems to be the unique characteristic of intention that it > has future consequences. N: Yes, it is accumulated and can produce result. Some people wonder how a deed can bring a result later on, but it is mental, that is why it can be accumulated. L: It looks like 'accumulation' is used in two senses in the analysis of > sankhara: 1. accumulation in the sense of storing-up kamma and habits, N: Here we have already two senses: accumulation of kamma that can produce result, and, as you call it habits. These are good and bad inclinations that can condition citta arising now by way of natural strong dependence condition. I would avoid the word storing up, some people think of a store consciousness, a kind of abiding subconsciousness. L: and 2. in the sense of forming a (seemingly?) integrated group of > elements. N: Here you probably think of the different cetasikas that arise together and condition one another. There is a combination of the cetasikas in sankhaarakkhandha. We should not forget that such a combination is very momentary. There is constant change. All the time there are different combinations. The conditions have to be just right for such or such combination. Take the following paras of Vis. It begins with all the cetasikas that accompany the first type of kusala citta: with pañña, pleasant feeling, unprompted. As we learnt, many conditions are needed for the arising of this citta. The Vis. follows here the Dhammasangani: At a time when kusala citta of the sense sphere has arisen... And then the accompanying cetasikas are summed up. At the occasion (when kusala citta arises): yasmi.m samaya. Remember what we studied under Kusala citta, I quoted the Expositor and this may clarify the notion of the combination of cetasikas: This is one moment of citta, arising and falling away. I give an example that we often heard from Kh Sujin: she said: sati is accumulated as sankhaarakkhandha while we listen to the dhamma and begin to be aware. Together with sati there is intellectual understanding of the level of listening, confidence in the Dhamma, concentration, energy, many cetasikas that assist, volition that coordinates. This combination arises and falls away, but it is accumulated, so that there are conditions for their arising again, they develop. In this way sati can develop into direct awareness, sati without having to think of the object, and understanding can develop into insight. They develop into something that is new. And even more so when lokuttara citta arises, with sati and paññaa that are lokuttara. We are thinking of terms and their meaning, but Kh. Sujin always stresses to keep the link with life. I have to remind myself of this when studying the terms. L: It is a little difficult to understand whether 'accumulation' > in either sense refers to a reality. My guess is that it refers to a > plurality of realities or dhammas (realities and concepts). N: I think that it pertains by all means to realities. Concepts themselves are not accumulated in the citta, but memory of concepts is accumulated, the cetasika sañña is accumulated. That is why we remember what we learn. Nina. 41195 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi Jon, J: "Howard and I have somewhat different understandings as to the conditions necessary for the development of insight, and I used the term `deliberate practice' to characterize Howard's approach (although Howard himself tends to mention the mental factor of intention (cetana) in this context). So it does not have a precise meaning in a Dhamma context. To my understanding of `practice' as used in the texts, the term `deliberate practice' would be something of a contradiction in terms." L: A quick look at "The Buddhist Dictionary" yields the definition of 'bhavana' as literally 'producing'. Would you like to add anything to that? How does 'intention' contradict 'produce'? J: "In conventional terms I would agree that `deliberate' and `intentional' are synonyms, but when we get to cetana cetasika and the javana cittas then I see no connection between the two. Although cetana is translated as `intention', it is not `an intention'; that is a conventional expression referring I think to a kind of thinking. Cetana is kamma and its result is vipaka, but I would not refer to vipaka as being the `accomplishment of an intention'." L: I think it is 'an intention' sometimes. When that is the case we have two results, the kammic consequences of an intention and the results of an action. These results of an action of body, speech, or mind are often not what one originally intended (desired). But sometimes they are. We often attribute these successful actions to skill. I tried to find the Pali for 'skill' but all I could find is 'kusala' as a definition. I'm not sure where that leaves the argument, but if one's intention is to 'do good' then the vipaka will be kusala regardless of how the action turns out, won't it? J: "I agree with the relevance of prompted and unprompted to this discussion. There are times when kusala arises only because it has been prompted, whether by another or by oneself. Now when kusala arises because of prompting by oneself, it can appear to be the case that the kusala was `deliberate'. But to my understanding this would be just another instance of the operation of conditions; such `deliberateness' is neither a necessary condition for, nor a means of making occur, the arising of kusala." L: I would say 'self' prompted kusala is, by definition, kusala. J: "(A partial exception has to be noted here in that, when kusala has been developed to the strength of being a power (`bala'), it can be aroused *more or less* at will, but always subject to conditions of course!)" L: I would say power is a level of skill, whatever that is. J: "I agree that conventionally deliberate action is likely to be accompanied by a strong sense of self. However, I see the abandoning of that sense of self as being achievable only by developed insight, and not something that can be done deliberately (i.e., by dint of intention or resolution)." L: I would say to resolve to abandon belief in a self will have a salutary (kusala) result because it is a salutary resolution. However, I agree that more often than not the result of whatever action one takes as a means to accomplish that abandonment will be unsuccessful. Hence the necessity for repeated application and also the cultivation of concentration skills and contemplation of the dhamma. J: "Thanks for the comments. Jon" L: Likewise, Larry 41196 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:05pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Everyone - The following is an exerpt from a recent dialogue between Ken and Howard: Ken O. : > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. > ------------------------------ Howard: That depends, I believe, on the person involved, and on his/her status. What of a non-returner's watching of the mind? To the extent there is lobha in doing that as a practice, is would be VERY subtle! And what if there is lobha? Even not so subtle? Does that make the practice worthless? If that is so, then, inasmuch as we all start immersed in the three poisons, there is no escape!! ---------------------------- Tep: How true it is, Howard. How true it is! Your comment gives hope to all practitioners at any level to continue to strive hard, to work one's way up from the worlding level to the lokiya level, then to the lokuttara level. Your wise remark, Howard, is not unlike the following Buddhist poem. "Erroneous views keep us in defilement While right views remove us from it, But when we are in a position to discard both of them We are then absolutely pure. Bodhi is immanent in our Essence of Mind, An attempt to look for it elsewhere is erroneous. Within our impure mind the pure one is to be found." Can anyone tell who said the above quoted words? Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > 41197 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,132, vyaapaara, 2. Hi Nina, Thanks for your comments. One counter comment: N: "I would avoid the word storing up, some people think of a store consciousness, a kind of abiding subconsciousness." L: The "store house consciousness" of some Mahayana systems is essentially memory. Everyone is a little vague on what memory is. Larry 41198 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, all - In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, including Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from "deliberate cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. "You (Ken O.) say "It is just knowing them as they arise, as they fall, as understanding that they are dukkha or anicca or anatta or all of them together, depending on ones panna." "What is it that determines in a person whether or not s/he "just knows them as they arise"? What is it that results in pa~n~na being operative. If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people. Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? [endquote of Howard's message] Thank you for saying it all very well, Howard. Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Everyone - > > The following is an exerpt from a recent dialogue between Ken and > Howard: > > Ken O. : > > in the abhidhamma context, when one is intent to watch on observing > > the mind as a practise, it is already a subtle lobha. > > > ------------------------------ > Howard: > > That depends, I believe, on the person involved, and on his/her > status. What of a non-returner's watching of the mind? To the extent > there is lobha in doing that as a practice, is would be VERY subtle! And > what if there is lobha? Even not so subtle? Does that make the practice > worthless? If that is so, then, inasmuch as we all start immersed in the > three poisons, there is no escape!! > ---------------------------- > Tep: How true it is, Howard. How true it is! Your comment gives hope to > all practitioners at any level to continue to strive hard, to work one's > way up from the worlding level to the lokiya level, then to the lokuttara > level. Your wise remark, Howard, is not unlike the following Buddhist > poem. > > "Erroneous views keep us in defilement > While right views remove us from it, > But when we are in a position to discard both of them > We are then absolutely pure. > Bodhi is immanent in our Essence of Mind, > An attempt to look for it elsewhere is erroneous. > Within our impure mind the pure one is to be found." > > Can anyone tell who said the above quoted words? > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > 41199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Jon and Howard, I find especially important what Jon writes: the relating of what has been heard and properly understood to the present moment. And this is also Abhidhamma applied. Always the link to the present moment, and then there is already a beginning awareness, however imperfect. As to further practice: all the perfections are to be developed, that is, all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind, without the need to name the perfections. That is the further practice and quite a task. But each individual will fit things into his daily life differently, different circumstances. Lodewijk said that some people are naturally inclined to some quiet time in the morning, or they want time to think quietly. Like I try to listen early morning to MP3. I need this as a reminder, otherwise I forget to relate Dhamma to the present moment. But also in daily life itself, reading the news, we receive reminders. My father says, he is losing his identity, and this is a reminder: we all do, each split second. And he is old gae personified. And you listen while walking. Everybody has his own conditions. Nina. op 22-01-2005 07:41 schreef jonoabb op jonoabb@y...: > The necessary conditions for insight development as explained in the > texts are: hearing the teachings about insight knowledge presented > in a way that is appropriate for our particular level of > understanding and accumulated wrong views; reflecting on what has > been heard; and the relating of what has been heard and properly > understood to the present moment. I believe that if these conditins > have been met then awareness can arise and insight can be developed, > without the need for anything further in the way of > conscious/deliberate `practice' on the part of the individual. 41200 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta and abhidhamma Hello Philip, I just wrote to you that we are missing you (maybe your screen was just then still black), and there you are. Thanks for your input again. Just as Joop, I like this: rise and fall away in a very momentary way long before we have begun > to develop insight that will bring us proof through direct experience > of this rising and falling, for example. > The intellectual understanding also helps a lot, indeed. Nina 41201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi Howard and Jon, op 22-01-2005 18:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ³Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into >> homelessness, service to one¹s parents.² >> Jon: I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular >> forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything >> in particular. >> > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > My point with regard to this sutta was the use of 'prescribed'. What > is prescribed or recommended to be done is not just *described* as being > useful. N: I quickly looked at the Thai Co. It seems to suggest three things that are beneficial. It is not like: 'You *must* do this.' When I have time I continue with the suttas. Howard, I liked your reaction to the suttas you sent to me. As to the words energy and effort, viriya, I like to add: courage and perseverance, these are implied by viriya. The latter words are more inspiring to me than only effort. But that is personal, it maybe because of previous readings. I had a discussion with Lodewijk about this subject of prescription or description several people used to debate about. He is inclined to see the Buddha's words as an advice. This can be more or less strong. I am not inclined to think in terms of prescription //description. Lodewijk and I discussed that even the five precepts are not prescribed: we have to train ourselves... Not: thou shall not... Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed themselves to the rules of discipline. Lodewijk sees this as a tremendous task. That was why he was so impressed while addressing 120 monks in Sarnath. When he looked at all those serious monks sitting there he was deeply touched and had even difficulty in talking, realizing their task. When reading suttas we have to see whether monks alone are addressed. I know many times it is also for laypeople, but at times it only concerns the monks who have the duty to become arahats. Like the sutta on sitting until the bones dry up. Nina. 41202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta and abhidhamma Dear Joop, I am glad you are interested at Abh. Sangaha. op 22-01-2005 16:34 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > My problem is not that the Abhidhamma is dry (I liked to study dry > stuff like mathematics). My problem is that the Dhamma is frozen, > made a system in which nothing is skipped, that there is not a drip > of anarchy in it. And that it's a body of knowledge that can not > change (any more). N: If we do not see the Abhidhamma as a body of knowledge we will not find it rigid. It is the link to daily life we should never lose. We investigate for ourselves cittas, mental factors, bodily phenomena. Then Abhidhamma is quite a different matter. Thank you for the article which I shall read when I have time. Harvey Aronson shall also send me a book Buddhist Practice on Western Ground. Howard gave me his address. So that is again the same subject as you. Nina. 41203 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/22/05 3:35:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Jon and Howard, > I find especially important what Jon writes: the relating of what has been > heard and properly > understood to the present moment. ==================== I agree that what you quoted of Jon's is very good. (I add it at the end of this post). Hearing the Dhamma is incredibly important. We, in fact, should make great effort to do so! (Note: A deliberate activity.) I also believe that other deliberate activity, as *prescribed* by the Buddha, is of enormous importance. With metta, Howard _____________________ Jon's words: > The necessary conditions for insight development as explained in the > texts are: hearing the teachings about insight knowledge presented > in a way that is appropriate for our particular level of > understanding and accumulated wrong views; reflecting on what has > been heard; and the relating of what has been heard and properly > understood to the present moment. I believe that if these conditins > have been met then awareness can arise and insight can be developed, > without the need for anything further in the way of > conscious/deliberate `practice' on the part of the individual. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41204 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi, Nina (and Jon) - I do get your point. By 'prescribe' I meant "recommend. So, when a physician - and the Buddha has been called The Great Physician - prescribes medition it is usually more of a recommendation han a command. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/22/05 3:36:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, vango rko@x... writes: > Hi Howard and Jon, > op 22-01-2005 18:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >³Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into > >>homelessness, service to one¹s parents.² > >> > Jon: I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular > >>forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything > >>in particular. > >> > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >My point with regard to this sutta was the use of 'prescribed'. What > >is prescribed or recommended to be done is not just *described* as being > >useful. > N: I quickly looked at the Thai Co. It seems to suggest three things that > are beneficial. It is not like: 'You *must* do this.' When I have time I > continue with the suttas. > Howard, I liked your reaction to the suttas you sent to me. As to the words > energy and effort, viriya, I like to add: courage and perseverance, these > are implied by viriya. The latter words are more inspiring to me than only > effort. But that is personal, it maybe because of previous readings. > I had a discussion with Lodewijk about this subject of prescription or > description several people used to debate about. He is inclined to see the > Buddha's words as an advice. This can be more or less strong. I am not > inclined to think in terms of prescription //description. Lodewijk and I > discussed that even the five precepts are not prescribed: we have to train > ourselves... Not: thou shall not... > Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed themselves to > the rules of discipline. Lodewijk sees this as a tremendous task. That was > why he was so impressed while addressing 120 monks in Sarnath. When he > looked at all those serious monks sitting there he was deeply touched and > had even difficulty in talking, realizing their task. > When reading suttas we have to see whether monks alone are addressed. I know > many times it is also for laypeople, but at times it only concerns the monks > who have the duty to become arahats. Like the sutta on sitting until the > bones dry up. > Nina. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41205 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > To Ken H I will say: is it correct to say "I THANK PAST CONDITIONS > (for allowing me to appreciate the Abhidhamma)" ? I don't think so, > for me that expression is too much like "Thank God". And the > expression "Thank God" is many times used on a hypocritical way. > Hi Joop (Ken O and James), It was coincidental that Ken O wrote about thanking conditions: just a day earlier, I had been thinking in the same way. A young driver had cut in front of me in a particularly discourteous, inconsiderate manner. Judging from the way he was casually chatting with his passenger, I guessed that, to them, it was normal behaviour. I thanked the conditions that made my behaviour more acceptable. It was an incident of road-calm (as opposed to road-rage). :-) I was thinking in Abhidhamma terms: Since the present moment was purely nama and rupa, the causes of the present moment were purely nama and rupa. So it seemed inappropriate to thank concepts (parents, teachers and my own past actions). When I wrote the message you are referring to, my motives were more dubious. Perhaps your word, "hypocritical," would apply. I had been stirred up by James' reference to pretentious showing off amongst DSG's Pali users. My attachment to the people concerned gave way to dosa (as lobha invariably does). I tried to give my message a positive slant, but it might have been better not sent at all. :-) Ken H 41206 From: Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:23am Subject: Typo Corrections Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi again, Nina (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/22/05 3:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Nina (and Jon) - > > I do get your point. By 'prescribe' I meant "recommend. So, when a > physician - and the Buddha has been called The Great Physician - prescribes > medition it is usually more of a recommendation han a command. > > With metta, > Howard > =========================== The contents of the foregoing were intended to be as follows: ____________________ I do get your point. By 'prescribe' I meant "recommend". So, when a physician - and the Buddha has been called The Great Physician - prescribes medication it is usually more of a recommendation than a command. ----------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41207 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta and abhidhamma Hi Nina > I just wrote to you that we are missing you (maybe your screen was just then > still black), and there you are. Thanks! I was missing you all as well, but it was also nice to be reminded (have it confirmed) that I could feel enthusiastic and confident about Dhamma without having anyone to discuss it with - for awhile at least. I sometimes suspected that in a sense Dhamma (in particular Abhidhamma) was just a strategy for me to belong to a group and make friends but I've learned that this is not the case. And the computer is working this morning as well. Very mysterious but I'll enjoy it while I can. I'm looking forward to reading your series on the India pilgrimage. All my best to Lodewijk and your father and the music-loving dog. Metta, Phil 41208 From: Philip Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India, 1 b Hello Nina, and all > Acharn Sujin emphasized that we should not merely think of the words of the > texts, but that we should have firm understanding of the characteristics of > realities that appear. But not too "firm", I guess, because that is surely beyond us now. Glimpses of understanding that come and go like glimpses of the moon through racing clouds. It certainly is easy to get caught up in words, words, words and forget about the realities. I like the way sati is sometimes defined as non-forgetfullness. > We should not dwell on the past that has gone already, nor think of the > future that has not come yet. I have found it helpful these days to be able to see these thoughts of past and future as lures that are dangled before my mind by Mara, as taught in that sutta about the fisherman. Again and again I find myself gently saying "don't take the lure" and dropping it. Basic stuff, but so helpful. We're moving in February, to a very nice area of Tokyo, and to an apartment with much better light. So easy to fall into anticipations of how much "better" things will be there, how I'll be able to be much more productive etc but I find myself using the above teaching to drop such foolish anticipations. > There can be awareness and understanding of > the dhammas appearing at this moment. *Can* be. I keep thinking of the image of the black curtain that K Sujin uses in the audio clip in the files. There has been so much ignorace accumulated over many lifetimes. We can be very grateful for the rare moments when the clouds part and we catch a glimpse of the moon. Metta, Phil 41209 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, with Jon. Hi All, > N: energy and effort, viriya, I like to add: courage and perseverance, these > are implied by viriya. The latter words are more inspiring to me than only > effort. But that is personal, it maybe because of previous Kel: Continuous effort is how the meaning is conveyed in Burmese too. I think courage and perseverance are essential parts of viriya when applied correctly. > N : Lodewijk and I > discussed that even the five precepts are not prescribed: we have to train > ourselves... Not: thou shall not... Kel: In some sense I don't see a difference. Even if they're commands, people can still obey or not since Buddha is not there to judge them. Sila to me is very simple, good actions that leads to no regrets, fears or anxieties. Bad actions cause tension and disturbance in the mind so it becomes dull. Regardless it's up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions whether past or present. > Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed Kel: I don't think it's so different if we are able to guard all three actions. We can be committed to dhamma while fulfilling our worldly duties. > When reading suttas we have to see whether monks alone are addressed. I know > many times it is also for laypeople, but at times it only concerns the monks > who have the duty to become arahats. Like the sutta on sitting until the > bones dry up. Kel: Maybe it's a difference in background but I for one take the whole teaching as for me. Buddha laid out what one should do and how one should practice. Whether or not one's capable of following everything is a separate issue. Everyone's goal should be to become an arahat asap. I think Joop's point of trusting and basing on one's own experience and understanding is right on. No matter how good a teacher we have, they cannot directly show us the way. So I don't see how we have a choice but to use our body and mind as it is the only reference. One of the thing I find is you learn to know "yourself" very well. How we react in certain situations or to certain stimulus. How the association of certain thing, action or person causes an intense reaction. Then as that association's strength lessens, the reaction naturally decreases. You can precisely take a position of a scientist and through repetitive experiments see the law of nature for what it is. When I saw the defiled nature of the mind, I was disgusted and ashamed. It would not be something I can proudly show to others and definitely don't want to call it "mine". But after the retreat was over, I can see the mind is back to it's old ways. Being proud of who I am and what I know etc. There's no ending to suffering it seems. As right now, the negative tendencies in my mind are still too strong. I look forward to another long retreat when positive tendencies might win the battle once again. Buddha taught us to fulfill our duties to family first. Once I have done that, I can finally go to a quiet and secluded place and practice with my upmost ability. The results I cannot control but I can for sure work on renunciation and determination. Ultimately what is so precious about this body that I can't sit until the bones dry up? The fact I can't do it now just tells me those particular paramis are weak in me. - kel 41210 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:19pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Ken H, Ken: I had been stirred up by James' reference to pretentious showing off amongst DSG's Pali users. My attachment to the people concerned gave way to dosa (as lobha invariably does). James: Hmmm…you were able to remain calm when cut off on the highway- an action that could have killed you- and yet you couldn't remain calm by a remark I made in a post? Odd. Really, you shouldn't pay me that much heed. Someone made an off-hand remark about `those who think they are jhana masters and sotapannas' and I knew it was directed at me (can't remember who wrote it and don't want to search now). And you know what I did? I smiled and ignored it. Who cares what people think about me? You shouldn't care what I think about others either. Metta, James Ps. BTW, I don't think that everyone here who uses Pali does so in a pretentious manner, only a few, and only sometimes. For example, Sarah and Nina use a lot of Pali and I don't find it pretentious… however, they still don't use Pali at the skill level of Kel. 41211 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:27pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard > said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, including > Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from "deliberate > cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. > Hi Tep and Howard, The Buddha warned us that his Dhamma was extremely profound and that it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. And we need to know that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and totally inadequate for vipassana. How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. --------------- > "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. > --------------- Tep, do you agree with Howard? I think he is sidestepping the question of anatta. In what way or ways can we choose to influence future experiences? Where is the being that chooses? Aren't there just conditioned dhammas? ---------------------- > "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. > ----------------------- Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? ------------------------ > If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? > ------------------------- Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the arising of panna. --------------------------------- > Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people? > ---------------------------------- Dhamma practice, satipatthana, is on a different level of reality from "torturing people." One is a paramattha dhamma and the other is a concept. Did anyone other than the Buddha suspect Angulimala had the potential to become an arahant? No, because his appearance was the antithesis of an ariyan. But concepts have no influence over dhammas. In the same way, adopting the appearance of an ariyan, sitting cross- legged, smiling and intending to have wholesome consciousness are concepts with no influence over satipatthana, or samatha, or any other dhamma. ----------------------- > Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? > ----------------------- If I understand the question correctly, I suppose the answer is, "No, there is no ultimate difference." Furthermore, I suspect the first category - those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching - could include people who advocate wrong view. That is, the view that enlightenment is attained through "striving" in the conventional sense of the word (as in the Ogha Sutta). But people who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" do not necessarily believe that "standing still " (doing nothing), is the way. We can be conscientious worldling Dhamma students without subscribing to either of the wrong views. --------------------- > If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? > --------------------- There is no Dhamma practice until the paramattha dhamma "panna" arises to take another paramattha dhamma as its object. There is no control over the arising of panna, but we have been taught the factors that condition it (see, e.g., Jon's recent, much-quoted, post). Ken H 41212 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:00am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 105 - Concentration/ekaggataa (a) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå, concentration or one-pointedness, is another cetasika among the seven 'universals' which arises with every citta: with kusala citta, akusala citta, vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta. It arises with all cittas of all planes of consciousness, but, as we will see, its quality is different as it arises with different cittas. The characteristic of citta is cognizing an object and thus, every citta which arises must have an object. There is no citta without an object and each citta can know only one object at a time. Ekaggatå is the cetasika which has as function to focus on that one object. Seeing-consciousness, for example, can only know visible object, it cannot know any other object and ekaggatå focuses on visible object. Hearing-consciousness can only know sound, it cannot know visible object or any other object and ekaggatå focuses on sound. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41213 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi all, Kel: Time to interject into this anatta argument again I guess. > it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms > with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. Kel: Sounds like too much self-deprecation to me. Conceit is even present in anagamis so it is a great danger. At the same time, you need confidence and strength to walk the path. > Ken H: that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and > totally inadequate for vipassana. Kel: Yet at the same time, these convential things and knowledge are the objects to utilize in our path to panna. Observing and analyzing superficial things to penetrate the aberrant truth they represent. > Ken H: How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? > It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer > (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. Kel: There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow backwards so can only alter the future course. > > "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not > possible he would not say it is. > > ----------------------- > > Ken H: Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does > cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise instead. Similarly with kusala vipaka cittas, they can cause kusala javana cittas to keep arising instead of lobha. It's realizing what cannot be changed (past) and what can be changed (present), amoha. It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. This is more technial argument for the same thing Howard said. > Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the > Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the > arising of panna. Kel: Buddha exhausted him physically while letting his mind to calm down to receive dhamma. Purely speaking of vithis, akusala javana and kusala javana cannot arise in the same vithi. So by definition the akusala cetana or whatever it was, already had no control before panna arose. Like the story of a woman who was so grief-stricken with the death of her son, she cannot receive dhamma even with enough capacity to. So Buddha sent her off to find a household with no deaths in the family and to bring back an item which can be use to resurrect her son. She went around the whole city and found no such households. The journey calmed her mind and reduced intensity of the grief so she's no longer blinded by it. Then when she came back with a convential understanding that no one is free from death of a loved one, she can finally understand Buddha's words to become an ariya. On the other hand, story of a married coupled can be recounted. They were both born into rich families so grew up spoiled with no understanding of how to run their family business. The parents felt that their wealth was so great, the kids didn't need the worry about trivial things. When they were old enough, they were married. As luck would have it, both sets of parents died leaving just the married couple. The husband made friends who wanted to leech off him and took him to places of sensuous pleasures. He would send servants home to get money from his wife who also didn't know better so kept on giving. As time went by he went through the whole fortune which was thought to be inexhaustible. Anyway, they ended up beggers at one of Buddha's monastery. When Buddha saw them and smiled, Ashin Ananda asked why. Buddha says look at those two, if they had come into my Dhamma during first stage of their lives, they would be arahats. If they had come in the second stage, they would be anagamis. If they had come in the third stage, they would be sakagamis or sotapannas. But now their minds are so dull since it was never developed in this life that they cannot receive dhamma. So even for such people with enough paramis and conditions to become arahats in this very life, without a proper use of opportunity to learn dhamma even during a living Buddha's time can be wasted. - kel ps. sorry, turned out to be a bit verbose post. 41214 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep and Howard My inital reaction is that difficult is the path, difficult to understand that the believe that a deliberate action is also a subtle clinging. Because this concept of one deliberate action is always portray in the the sutta says that monks, do this or do that. Unless one sees the flood as a stream of conditions, there is no liberation. When one halt, one is attached, when one struggled one is also attached, only when one dont halt and dont struggled, noticing the flood with the three characteristics, then one is on the path. > Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from > "deliberate cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. k: Citta is the king, the forerunner. It does not mean it can be deliberately control of it. If it is possible to control citta, then we would be always happy, we will not grow old or sad, in sum we will not have affliction. There is no stopping in this stream of citta, even if one think we can stop it, there is delusion because Buddha has said it clearly in the dependent origination, when this arise, that arise. It is stream of continuous citta, it is a stream as long as kamma permits it. > > > "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular > sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, > influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. > "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not possible he would not say it is. k: Definitely it is possible only with the arisen of the knowledge of anatta. This sound very ironic, on one hand, citta comes and goes without any self involved yet on the other hand there is always this believe one can control the flow. In fact the penetrative knowledge of conditions in the three characteristics acutally helps solve the problem of cyclic rebirth. > "What is it that determines in a person whether or not s/he "just > knows them as they arise"? What is it that results in pa~n~na being > operative. If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison engaged in practice while torturing people. Is there no difference in > "practice" between those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? k: There is world of difference between knowing them arise with knowledge of them of three characterisitcs and one who observe them as a third party like a socialogists. I remember I read this sutta about even when armed robbers saw you limb by limb, one should not be angry? Why, because, how would one be angry if there is no one to be found in the first instance. If physical pain does not belong to be mine, where is there one to be angry. Physical pain is just another condition, so without halting to the craving of I, where is there fire to support the growth of anger. Without the support the three latency of the three roots, there is no more I around for it burn for endless samasara. If there is no lantency of I around to feed the three roots, it is impossible for one to commit any akusala behaviour. It is only when our latency is dormant and feeding the three roots, one commit akusala. Hence to me, when the one see conditions with the three characteristics, akusala will eventually stop on its own as there is no more wood for the fire to burn. Since these people as describe by you are still does not known the three characteristics, the fire still burning in them, so naturally these type of situation arise. Ken O 41215 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep Attaining jhanas is not right concentration, because Buddha also attain jhanas before he is buddha after learning from his two teacher. When Buddha say right concentration, it must have been conditioned by panna. If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been enlighted earlier. His two teachers would have been Arahants. That is why to me one must see the commentary after seeing the sutta or the likelihood of erring is very high. Ken O 41216 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/23/05 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > >Hi, all - > > > >In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard > >said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, > including > >Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > >actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > >practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > >do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes > from "deliberate > >cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. > > > > > Hi Tep and Howard, > > The Buddha warned us that his Dhamma was extremely profound and that > it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms > with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. And we need to know > that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and > totally inadequate for vipassana. > > How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? > It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer > (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. > --------------------------------------- Howard: How can there be eating when there is no being who can eat? How could there have been the Dhamma taught when there was no Buddha to teach it, no beings to have been taught, and no thing that is the Dhamma? Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut-abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the reality, and they are not confused. Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is acting". There IS acting. There IS willing. Moreover, all true conventional statements that are made are, indeed, TRUE. They have to be properly understood, not taken at literal face value, but *not* just dismissed as false. ---------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > >"Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular > sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, > but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, > influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. > > --------------- > > Tep, do you agree with Howard? I think he is sidestepping the > question of anatta. In what way or ways can we choose to influence > future experiences? Where is the being that chooses? Aren't there > just conditioned dhammas? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed, just conditioned dhammas - and even they are wrongly understood as little self-existent actors! No being is required. But to speak of beings and other "things", which the Buddha did all the time, is useful speech. An arahant, were s/he to decide to directly communicate only reality, would abandon the attempt at communcating entirely, and simply remain silent. There is no communication that conveys only reality to worldlings and lesser ariyans. ------------------------------------------ > > ---------------------- > >"There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not > possible he would not say it is. > > ----------------------- > > Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does > cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? > > ------------------------ > > >If it is not a matter of deliberate cultivation, then is an armed > robber practicing while pistol whipping a victim? > > ------------------------- > > Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the > Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the > arising of panna. > > --------------------------------- > >Were Saddam Hussein's sons or the perverse soldiers at Abu Ghraib > prison engaged in practice while torturing people? > > ---------------------------------- > > Dhamma practice, satipatthana, is on a different level of reality > from "torturing people." One is a paramattha dhamma and the other is > a concept. Did anyone other than the Buddha suspect Angulimala had > the potential to become an arahant? No, because his appearance was > the antithesis of an ariyan. But concepts have no influence over > dhammas. > > In the same way, adopting the appearance of an ariyan, sitting cross- > legged, smiling and intending to have wholesome consciousness are > concepts with no influence over satipatthana, or samatha, or any > other dhamma. > ------------------------------------ Howard: But what DOES have influence? (And if cetana has no consequences, what does it "do for a living"?? ;-) The answer to what has influence usually given here is "hearing the Dhamma" or "hearing and contemplating the Dhamma". But this is conventional speech, Ken. Yes, that conventional action is one of many conventional actions that a conventional person can conventioally decide to conventionally carry out. In *actuality* there is no being who can hear or contemplate the Dhamma, and in actuality there is no reality called "the Dhamma". So, Ken, don't even try to hear, read, discuss, or contemplate the Dhamma, because there is no Ken to do it, and there is no reading, there is no discussing, and there is no Dhamma! N'est ce pas? ------------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------- > >Is there no difference in "practice" between those who attempt to > follow the Buddha's teaching and those who do not? > > ----------------------- > > If I understand the question correctly, I suppose the answer > is, "No, there is no ultimate difference." > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh. I think I'll just go out and have a drink, a bit of illicit sex, and a stupifyingly satisfying meal. Oh, and if anger should arise and I should physically attack someone, well, hey, conditions will arise as they arise, with no "me" to do anything about that. And all the while, this is practicing!! (I recall that there was a sect at the time of the Buddha that took the position that to run someone through with a sword is no problem, because the body doesn't truly exist. The Buddha, of course, dismissed this!) Ken, I find your position to lend itself quite easily to an extreme of Buddhist antinomianism. ------------------------------------ > > Furthermore, I suspect the first category - those who attempt to > follow the Buddha's teaching - could include people who advocate > wrong view. That is, the view that enlightenment is attained > through "striving" in the conventional sense of the word (as in the > Ogha Sutta). > > But people who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" do not > necessarily believe that "standing still " (doing nothing), is the > way. We can be conscientious worldling Dhamma students without > subscribing to either of the wrong views. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense. There is no "we" to do anything! ---------------------------------- > > --------------------- > >If there is, what distinguishes their practice? After all, > whatever arises, arises, and there is no controlling of it, right? > > --------------------- > > There is no Dhamma practice until the paramattha dhamma "panna" > arises to take another paramattha dhamma as its object. There is no > control over the arising of panna, but we have been taught the > factors that condition it (see, e.g., Jon's recent, much-quoted, > post). -------------------------------------- Howard: So Dhamma practice begins only when pa~n~na arises, but pa~n~na arises independently of conventional actions. This means that whether or not Dhamma practice begins is, conventionally speaking, completely random! Mmm, good. That sure gets "me" off the hook. It is EASY to be a Buddhist. There is no need to do anything any differently from anyone else. Que sera, sera. Whatever will be, will be. Time for a snooze! Or some booze! ------------------------------------ > > Ken H > ------------------------------------- Howard: Who? What? No Ken, no Howard, no discussion. ZZZZZZZZZ (snoozing) =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41217 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Ken O, Ken O: Attaining jhanas is not right concentration James: Jhanas are Right Concentration. See this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Ken O: because Buddha also attain jhanas before he is buddha after learning from his two teacher. James: The Buddha had learned the immaterial attainments from his previous teachers, not the jhanas. Ken O: If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been enlighted earlier. James: The only time the Buddha had practiced the jhanas is when he was a child and he spontaneously entered the first jhana, after that he never practiced them again. Actually, he had been afraid to practice them because they produced pleasurable sensations and he had forsaken pleasure in all forms: "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities…" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn036.html Metta, James 41218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali users Hi James and Ken, This post today really gave me a good laugh :-)) I knew whom James remark was directed to :-)) But I do not laugh all the time. I just continue with my Pali because I committed myself to Larry's project although it takes time and it is difficult. Nobody knows how often I am sighing over the Pali. But inspite of this, I find it useful and I learn a lot from it. For every student of Pali it is the easiest thing in the world to know that one is not an expert. I think with whatever we do, and this does not only concern Pali, conceit is bound to arise so long as we are not arahats. We may think: I know this, the others do not know this, and it can happen with any post we write. But we do not stop writing because of this. It is good to realize conceit and how often it arises. He and me, and there is already conceit. The test of one's understanding is daily life. Nina. op 23-01-2005 00:19 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Ken: I had been stirred up by James' reference to pretentious > showing off amongst DSG's Pali users. J: Who cares what people think about me? 41219 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. Hi Kel, (and Htoo at end) op 23-01-2005 00:13 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: quote: Lodewijk said for monks it is different. They have committed > Kel: I don't think it's so different if we are able to guard all > three actions. We can be committed to dhamma while fulfilling our > worldly duties. N: There is an immense difference between the monk and the lay person. Kh Sujin said that it is like heaven and earth. The Co. states that becoming a monk is like a new birth. The rules are directed towards arahatship, and if the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct of a monk who is non-arahat and arahat. It is progress to see one's faults. It is helpful to realize that akusala cittas are conditioned. I quote something from Pilgrimage India: I have a small matter that only concerns terms or names. You spoke about phala samaapatti. This is not the same as the arising of the phalacittas succeeding the magga-cittas when enlightenment is attained. Those are only two or three moments. Phala samaapatti can only be attained by ariyans who developed both jhana and vipassana and have masteries of jhanas, as Htoo explained. For them phalacittas can arise again many times during their life. This is abiding in bliss here, now. I quote again from the Dhamma Issues in Thai: Htoo explained these three. Htoo, as I understood, you called nirodha samaapatti upadisesa nibbana, but I understood that the nirodha samaapatti is not lokuttara citta. I thought that only the arahat's lokuttara citta is nibbana with the substratum of life remaining, and that the moment of his passing away is anupadisesa nibbana. I felt somewhat at a loss. Nina. 41220 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: deliberate, intention, etc. Hi Howard, I have no trouble with your words deliberate or effort, or intention. You very, very often (you said before: ad nauseam) explained that you realize that these are all qualities that are conditioned, not belonging to a self. Lodewijk suggested the word encouragement in the context of recommendation. Prescribed, you added, recommended. It is of no use to fall over words. For me, I am not inclined to debates about them. I found it liberating for myself to hear from Kh Sujin that we do not have to force ourselves to certain difficult practices, but can develop understanding naturally in daily life. To me this makes a lot of sense. Daily life is the test for our understanding she said. But what is forced for one person is not forced for someone else. Let everyone decide for himself. I do something similar to what you do and some people may think this forced: my alarm goes at 5.30 on weekdays. I am getting old and time flies more and more quickly. If I do not get up early, with a certain discipline, I would have no time for listening to Dhamma, just could not fit it in. Yes, a certain discipline. As you said before, human nature is weak, and we easily get into the habit of sleeping long, of sluggishness. Still, I do not feel forced with a certain amount of discipline, otherwise nothing gets done. I like the Buddha's texts to the monks on sluggishness, being attached to sleep. I see those as a recommendation, encouragement, whatever you call it, I do not fall over words. I am glad you see the importance of listening, there are so many texts in the suttas about this. Nina. op 22-01-2005 21:44 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I agree that what you quoted of Jon's is very good. (I add it at the > end of this post). Hearing the Dhamma is incredibly important. We, in fact, > should make great effort to do so! (Note: A deliberate activity.) I also > believe > that other deliberate activity, as *prescribed* by the Buddha, is of enormous > importance. 41221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:17am Subject: Re:Joop's article on Western Buddhism Dear Joop, Your article is well written, not too long. Some points are good for discussion here, like: engaged Buddhism, this is a point Chris brought up in India. So, it is international. I think it is a reaction to the idea that Buddhists should not be engaged, but the Dhamma is also the application of metta and karuna. Kh sujin had doubts about it that another kind of Buddhism, engaged Buddhism is necessary. You can hear this on the sound tract Jon gave. I think that if we understand that the essence of the Dhamma is developing wisdom to know yourself, to know seeing, hearing, attachment etc. there is no need for Western Buddhism. Everyone can apply the Dhamma in his own situation and culture. No need to throw away one's culture. Seeing is universal, hearing is universal. The texts deal with these realities. But do bring your points in English here, suitable for discussion. Nina. 41222 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/23/05 7:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Tep > > Attaining jhanas is not right concentration, because Buddha also > attain jhanas before he is buddha after learning from his two > teacher. When Buddha say right concentration, it must have been > conditioned by panna. If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would > have been enlighted earlier. His two teachers would have been > Arahants. That is why to me one must see the commentary after seeing > the sutta or the likelihood of erring is very high. > > > Ken O > =========================== There is the following: ______________________ > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- > enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed > thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & > pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & > evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in > equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He > enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & > pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he > enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither > pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." > >> -- SN XLV.8 > ----------------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41223 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > As preamble, I think I'll just say that we certainly disagree on this >one, and there seems little prospect of a rapprochement in sight! ;-)) I'll >add just a couple brief comments below. > > In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by ‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) > Howard: > > That's correct. This sutta [No. 1] does not discuss method. But it >*does*instruct the hearer to abandon evil, and states that it is possible to do so. > > I think ‘recommend’ (rather than 'instruct') would aptly describe the import of the Buddha’s words in this sutta, too. Is that how you would see it? We should also bear in mind that the suttas were audience- and occasion-specific to a degree, and what was taught on a given occasion was the appropriate 'medicine' for that audience on that occasion. >Howard: > But you ignore the opening phrase: "Thus should one train oneself". I >take that to mean exactly what it says. > > But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for), which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being recommended here? Jon 41224 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pali users Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James and Ken, > This post today really gave me a good laugh :-)) I knew whom James remark > was directed to :-)) No, I don't think you did because it wasn't directed to you. And, yes, I agree with you that conceit is very subtle and it comes out in many ways. Really, I had brought up this whole Pali issue a long time ago when I first joined this group. I stated that I wasn't going to use obscure Pali in my posts because it was being used in a pretentious way by some members. I also balked at looking up Pali words just to 'fit in'. This is nothing new. From this group, I got a bad taste of Pali use. But then I saw Kel using Pali in a way that was natural and unpretentious and I realized that I was wrong. I have also read some of the writings of Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw which also use extensive Pali in a good way. Now I am not so opposed to Pali use if it helps one to better learn and express the dhamma- but I doubt that I could ever learn to use Pali in such a natural way. Metta, James 41225 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry Larry wrote: >L: A quick look at "The Buddhist Dictionary" yields the definition >of 'bhavana' as literally 'producing'. Would you like to add anything >to that? How does 'intention' contradict 'produce'? > > In very general terms, I was saying that kusala can, and does at times, arise without our intending it to do so. Have you ever (a) found yourself pondering over dhamma issues as you go about your daily routine, or (b) refrained from an adverse comment to someone because the thought popped into your mind that it just isn't necessary to say that, or (c) offered a friendly or reassuring comment to someone who appears to be uncomfortable or upset, or (d) on the spur of the moment offered your time or expertise to someone for their benefit? These are all instances of kusala arising without any sense of it being part of a 'practice' or something to be made to occur. So when it comes to the *minimum necessary* requirements (forgetting for the moment about whether some circumstances are 'better' that others), an appreciation of the value of kusala, especially when supported and reinforced by useful reminders such as we find in the texts, is sufficient 'motivation' to perform/develop/produce kusala. There is no *absolute* requirement for intention at the conscious level. This of course assumes that we have all developed kusala in the past, and so what we are in fact talking about is merely the arising of existing accumulated tendencies that are usually overshadowed by the far stronger accumulated tendencies for akusala. In the case of insight development, there needs to be in addition to the factors mentioned above an on-going exposure to the teachings on insight development presented in a form that is 'right' for us. But if we are fortunate enough to have this then the necessary conditions for insight development are complete. Of course, it takes a certain amount of confidence in the teachings to accept that no further input on our part is needed, since there are no instant results in the form of insight moments to verify what we have learnt from our study of the suttas and other texts (and which may run counter to our deeply held, intuitive views on what constitutes spiritual progress). But there are other aspects of the teachings that we can verify for ourselves and these can be the basis for confidence in what is said about insight development. >L: I think it is 'an intention' sometimes. When that is the case we >have two results, the kammic consequences of an intention and the >results of an action. These results of an action of body, speech, or >mind are often not what one originally intended (desired). But >sometimes they are. We often attribute these successful actions to >skill. I tried to find the Pali for 'skill' but all I could find >is 'kusala' as a definition. I'm not sure where that leaves the >argument, but if one's intention is to 'do good' then the vipaka will >be kusala regardless of how the action turns out, won't it? > > To take a specific example (if I have understood you correctly), where A's act is a kusala one (for example, A helps B to move his furniture), but the conventional result is unpleasant for B (A breaks B's furniture, or drops it on B's foot), that 'unpleasant' result for B has no effect on the likelihood of A's kusala act bringing its kusala vipaka for A. (However, we have to be careful about making any assumption that what we think of as an 'intention to do good' on our part is necessarily kusala; it may not be, depending on a number of factors.) >L: I would say 'self' prompted kusala is, by definition, kusala. > > Agreed. I was just trying to say we cannot go further and say, OK, in that case a good way of having more kusala would be to do more self-prompting. I think you can see that that actions performed arising from that kind of 'practice' would not be in the same class as actions that are self-prompted in the natural, non-deliberative way that first occurred. >L: I would say power is a level of skill, whatever that is. > > Power in any skilful (kusala) quality is a level of kusala. Power in any unskilful (akusala) quality is a level of akusala. >L: I would say to resolve to abandon belief in a self will have a >salutary (kusala) result because it is a salutary resolution. >However, I agree that more often than not the result of whatever >action one takes as a means to accomplish that abandonment will be >unsuccessful. Hence the necessity for repeated application and also >the cultivation of concentration skills and contemplation of the >dhamma. > > Unfortunately, we cannot assume that a resolve on our part to abandon belief in a self will necessarily be kusala. This is because it could be motivated by akusala, such as a desire for results, or just wrong view about what is meant by 'abandoning a belief in self'. In which case repeated application may not necessarily be such a skilful thing. However, with repeated contemplation of the dhamma such as you mention there will be times when this kind of resolve occurs naturally and spontaneously, and that is much more likely to be kusala I would say. Jon 41226 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: deliberate, intention, etc. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/23/05 8:18:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > I have no trouble with your words deliberate or effort, or intention. You > very, very often (you said before: ad nauseam) explained that you realize > that these are all qualities that are conditioned, not belonging to a self. > Lodewijk suggested the word encouragement in the context of recommendation. > Prescribed, you added, recommended. It is of no use to fall over words. For > me, I am not inclined to debates about them. ------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. So long as we pretty much understand what the other means, the conversation is good. ------------------------------------- > I found it liberating for myself to hear from Kh Sujin that we do not have > to force ourselves to certain difficult practices, but can develop > understanding naturally in daily life. To me this makes a lot of sense. > Daily life is the test for our understanding she said. But what is forced > for one person is not forced for someone else. Let everyone decide for > himself. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. A middle-way approach, tailored to the needs of the individual - a "relaxed firmness" of approach. ------------------------------------ > I do something similar to what you do and some people may think this > forced: > my alarm goes at 5.30 on weekdays. I am getting old and time flies more and > more quickly. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, you've noticed that. ;-) I'm a bit younger than you, and I have been observing that the weeks just FLY by!!!! So fast it is hard to believe. Even at the conventional level, as one ages impermanence is right in front of one all the time. --------------------------------- If I do not get up early, with a certain discipline, I would> > have no time for listening to Dhamma, just could not fit it in. Yes, a > certain discipline. As you said before, human nature is weak, and we easily > get into the habit of sleeping long, of sluggishness. > -------------------------------- Howard: I think that this practice of yours is wonderful! Anumodana!! -------------------------------- Still, I do not feel> > forced with a certain amount of discipline, otherwise nothing gets done. I > like the Buddha's texts to the monks on sluggishness, being attached to > sleep. I see those as a recommendation, encouragement, whatever you call it, > I do not fall over words. > -------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! ------------------------------- > I am glad you see the importance of listening, there are so many texts in > the suttas about this. > Nina ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41227 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/23/05 8:38:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon - > > > > As preamble, I think I'll just say that we certainly disagree on this > >one, and there seems little prospect of a rapprochement in sight! ;-)) I'll > > >add just a couple brief comments below. > > > > > > In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by > ‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, > too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) > --------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps not. 'Recommend' is definitely what I mean. The Buddha put forward a variety of conventional practices as useful and conducing to the good. -------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > > > That's correct. This sutta [No. 1] does not discuss method. But it > >*does*instruct the hearer to abandon evil, and states that it is possible > to do so. > > > > > > I think ‘recommend’ (rather than 'instruct') would aptly describe the > import of the Buddha’s words in this sutta, too. Is that how you would > see it? > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. ------------------------------------- > > We should also bear in mind that the suttas were audience- and > occasion-specific to a degree, and what was taught on a given occasion > was the appropriate 'medicine' for that audience on that occasion. > > > >Howard: > > But you ignore the opening phrase: "Thus should one train oneself". I > >take that to mean exactly what it says. > > > > > > But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train > oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We > shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a > straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for) > -------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely that the Buddha was not simply advising "Just say no!" or "Just don't do it!" The conventional practices recommended by the Buddha - and I agree that there was some variation in them, tailored to individual needs - were many, complex, and often quite subtle. --------------------------------------- > > which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to > break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being > recommended here? > --------------------------------------- Howard: In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from akusala as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging kusala as possible. --------------------------------------- > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Tep, op 22-01-2005 01:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was translated > from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on > watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on > outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken > care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually > become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea > in the Potthila Thera's story. N: When I read suttas, I cannot help getting the impression that the Buddha speaks all the time about six doorways, the objects experienced through them and the cittas that experience them. Nina. 41229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: - D.O. and the sotapanna. Dear Tep, op 22-01-2005 02:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > T: The Vera Sutta does not specifically states that all stages of insight > knowledge must be realized before the D.O. can be "truly understood". > Looking at the description of the D.O. knowledge in the Vera Sutta, I > think it is not deep -- there is no clue that relates to "all stages of > insight > knowledge". Here is how it goes: > > "And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly > ferreted out through discernment? N: My PTS translation has instead of: : . Reading the context, it is about a sotapanna. Unwavering confidence, and the other attributes: virtues unbroken, generous. A sotapanna has gone through all stages of insight. Tep quotes: > "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When > this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When > this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of > that. [endquote] N: After that the D.O. is explained in detail. Nina. 41230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, op 22-01-2005 03:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: The passage > from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me > another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What > is the title of this publication? N: It was just a post written to Lars. Maybe you could find it under Lars? T: You use the term satipatthana rather than sati (mindfulness) or samma- > sati. Is there a special meaning about satipatthana beyond the Four > Foundations of Mindfulness [DN 22]? T: Good you ask. Satipatthana can mean: 1: the objects of sati sampajañña, nama and rupa, classified as the four satipatthanas 2: sati of the level of satipatthana which is mindful of those objects. Then it is actually sati sampajañña, because sati without understanding is not very meaningful. 3. The Path the Buddha and his great disciples walked. This is explained in the Sutta as not being delighted when people listen nor being downcast when they do not listen. See: ³Middle length Sayings² III, no 137 : Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field. 2.The Papañcasúdaní, Commentary to the Satipaììhånasutta, Middle Length Sayings. 3. The Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division). Satipatthana no 2, when it is developed, is actually samma-sati and it must go together with samma-ditthi, right understanding. Thus usually when I say: satipatthana is being developed I mean no 2. I could also say: vipassana, or, the eightfold Path, meaning samma-sati and samma-ditthi together. As to no 1: this is very momentary, depending on where citta with mindfulness goes. When a rupa appears, there can be the first application, and so on for feeling, no specific order. Nobody there to direct it. This is good, otherwise we would not understand the nature of satipatthana as anatta. > T: Is sama-nana the Pali for "right understanding"? There is no samma- > nana in the Eightfold Path and neither samma-ditthi nor samma- > sankhappa is a good fit for right understanding, at least from my > understanding. N: sammaa-ññaa.na is not used for "right understanding", but samma-ditthi is. Pañña is of different levels and in different contexts specific terms are used. Vijjaa, amoha and ñaa.na are other words for paññaa, but all of them are amoha cetasika. T: Further, what are the suttas that support the statement, "when > vipassana develops also samadhi develops. N: When studying conditions we know that conascent dhammas condition one another. Mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are among the indriyas, and when these develop they become powers, balas, unshakable. See K.S. V, Kindred Sayings on the Powers (S.N. 50) T: Even in the case of > those who do not develop jhana."? N: Also those who do not develop jhana develop the stages of insight and become sotapanna. For them also there is the power of concentration together with the other powers. T: I only know the suttas that say > samma-samadhi supports samma-nana (i.e. vipassana-nana). N: For some samma-samadhi is of the degree of jhana, for others not. Nina. 41231 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Ken O. (also Howard, Kel, and Ken H) - I am so glad that you spent more time deliberating a reply to my mail. I must admit that this message # 41214 of yours is the clearest one I have ever seen. So I thank you much for that effort. --------------------------------------- KO: My inital reaction is that difficult is the path, difficult to understand that the believe that a deliberate action is also a subtle clinging. Because this concept of one deliberate action is always portray in the the sutta says that monks, do this or do that. Unless one sees the flood as a stream of conditions, there is no liberation. When one halt, one is attached, when one struggled one is also attached, only when one dont halt and dont struggled, noticing the flood with the three characteristics, then one is on the path. T: I cannot completely disagree with your statement, "a deliberate action is also a subtle clinging", Ken. The exception also exists. You're right about the Buddha's persuasion that his monks should do this, but not that, and that they should follow the Teachings with conscientious efforts. But there can be deliberation, attempt, exertion and effort along with right view and right mindfulness. So the end goal (Path consciousness) can be attained. ---------------------------------------- > T: Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from > "deliberate cultivation", Howard rightfully stated. KO: Citta is the king, the forerunner. It does not mean it can be deliberately control of it. If it is possible to control citta, then we would be always happy, we will not grow old or sad, in sum we will not have affliction. There is no stopping in this stream of citta, even if one think we can stop it, there is delusion because Buddha has said it clearly in the dependent origination, when this arise, that arise. It is stream of continuous citta, it is a stream as long as kamma permits it. T: Citta -- stream of consciousness -- is not permanent; it arises and disbands because of paccaya. Cetana can influence citta, and right efforts in the sense of deliberate cultivation of sila, samadhi and panna, do influence citta. Kelvin said it clearly in his message # 41213, "It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine". Very well said, Kelvin. --------------------------------- Howard: > There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of > mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were > not possible he would not say it is. KO: Definitely it is possible only with the arisen of the knowledge of anatta. This sound very ironic, on one hand, citta comes and goes without any self involved yet on the other hand there is always this believe one can control the flow. In fact the penetrative knowledge of conditions in the three characteristics actually helps solve the problem of cyclic rebirth. T: Doesn't cetana influence the "direction of mind", regardless of the knowledge of anatta? ------------------------------- > Howard: After all, whatever arises, arises, and there is no > controlling of it, right? KO: There is world of difference between knowing them arise with knowledge of them of three characterisitcs and one who observe them as a third party like a socialogists. I remember I read this sutta about even when armed robbers saw you limb by limb, one should not be angry? Why, because, how would one be angry if there is no one to be found in the first instance. If physical pain does not belong to be mine, where is there one to be angry. Physical pain is just another condition, so without halting to the craving of I, where is there fire to support the growth of anger. Without the support the three latency of the three roots, there is no more I around for it burn for endless samasara. If there is no lantency of I around to feed the three roots, it is impossible for one to commit any akusala behaviour. It is only when our latency is dormant and feeding the three roots, one commit akusala. Hence to me, when the one see conditions with the three characteristics, akusala will eventually stop on its own as there is no more wood for the fire to burn. Since these people as describe by you are still does not known the three characteristics, the fire still burning in them, so naturally these type of situation arise. T: The sociologists may disagree! But I do agree with you about the latent tendency feeding of lobha, dosa and moha. Moreover, who can deny your following words of wisdom? : "...when one sees conditions with the three characteristics, akusala will eventually stop on its own as there is no more wood for the fire to burn". Very well said, Ken O.. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep and Howard > > My inital reaction is that difficult is the path, difficult to > understand that the believe that a deliberate action is also a subtle > > > Ken O > 41232 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. > the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct of a monk who > is non-arahat and arahat. Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. A layperson can become an arahat, just can't stay as a layperson then. The reasons vinaya rules were added incrementally is because the order grew and many non-ariyas joined causing problems. For an ariya the rules are already natural part of their living style. Therefore, anyone who's properly training to become an ariya should have similar quality of conduct or they probably have no hope of becoming one. People say a sotapanna has perfect sila; I say to become a sotapanna one needs to have perfect sila. > Through satipatthåna we learn that whatever is experienced are only nåmas > and rúpas arising because of conditions. > Kel: yes? I'm not sure if there's any point you're trying to make here except saying basic principles. > I have a small matter that only concerns terms or names. You spoke about > phala samaapatti. This is not the same as the arising of the phalacittas > succeeding the magga-cittas when enlightenment is attained. Those are only > two or three moments. Kel: it was a simple point from classification of consciousness that magga and phala are expanded in the same exact way. Thus no matter in magga vithi or samapatti vithi they should be understood in the same way. > Phala samaapatti can only be attained by ariyans who developed both jhana > and vipassana and have masteries of jhanas, as Htoo explained. For them > phalacittas can arise again many times during their life. This is abiding in > bliss here, now. Kel: well I verified with my Abhidhamma teacher and he said obviously phala samapatti can be realized without attainment of mundane jhanas. As I said, mastery of mundane jhanas involves being able to advert and acquire the nimittas. If you can acquire nibbana through lakkhanas then one can very well lack nimittas but still be able to achieve phala samapatti. Next week my teacher might provide technical references to prove this point. > I quote again from the Dhamma Issues in Thai: > fruition-attainment and cessation-attainment (nirodha samåpatti 15) which > are progressively more subtle and refined. The ordinary person is able to > attain at his own level mundane jhåna. The ariyan who has attained > enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different > stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta > (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with > the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non- returner and > arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and > arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. > Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these different > attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations.> Kel: I already read all these Dhamma issue threads and I don't agree with the logic. Every lokuttara cittas are accompanied by factors of different jhanas, with the least being first jhana. So I don't see how the "therefore" is reached. Also I remember the argument those threads drew with Suttas on recollections and how obviously its not in the "pleasant abiding" enumerated, the logic is flawed. The argument of access concentration for certain objects forgets that one can switch the object once it reach access to accomplish absorption. - kel 41233 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:44am Subject: Re: sutta, to Tep/ Are Jhanas not Right Concentration? Hi Ken O. and James - We have a few issues here that should be clarified. 1. Jhanas taught by yogis before the Budha's Enlightenment are not Right concentration (sama-samadhi) which is defined in Maha- satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) and Jhana Sutta (AN IX.36). 2. Sama-samadhi as a Path factor arises only with the support of the other 7 Path factors. Please read Maha-cattarisaka Sutta < Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with these seven factors is called noble right concentration together with the means and the accessories. ... To one with right mindfulness arise right concentration.To one with right concentration arise right knowledge. To one with right knowledge arise right release.> Ken O. : If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been enlighted earlier. His two teachers would have been Arahants. That is why to me one must see the commentary after seeing the sutta or the likelihood of erring is very high. T: Ken, could you please kindly show the commentary that says that jhanas, as defined in the Jhana Sutta (AN IX.36) or DN 22, are not right concentration? Also, if you can, explain why the Right concentration defined in DN 22 is not "jhanas"? Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > Ken O: Attaining jhanas is not right concentration > > James: Jhanas are Right Concentration. See this link: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > Ken O: because Buddha also attain jhanas before he is buddha after > learning from his two teacher. > > James: The Buddha had learned the immaterial attainments from his > previous teachers, not the jhanas. > > Ken O: If jhanas is right concentration, Buddha would have been > enlighted earlier. > > James: The only time the Buddha had practiced the jhanas is when he > was a child and he spontaneously entered the first jhana, after that > he never practiced them again. Actually, he had been afraid to > practice them because they produced pleasurable sensations and he > had forsaken pleasure in all forms: > > "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, > and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then -- > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental > qualities -- I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on > that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to > do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' > I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing > to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental > qualities…" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn036.html > > Metta, > James 41234 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:13am Subject: Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi Jon, I don't think there is any real disagreement in our understandings of the difference between prompted and unprompted consciousnesses. The unprompted variety is more potent, but even a sutta is a prompt. You wrote: "Unfortunately, we cannot assume that a resolve on our part to abandon belief in a self will necessarily be kusala." I disagree. There could, and almost certainly will be akusala cittas arise with this resolution simply because we are not arahants and an arahant wouldn't make this kind of resolution. However, I think there are certain prescribed kusala intentions that conform with the paramis and these are necessarily kusala. There could, of course, be the case where one is merely paying lip service to kusala intentions and not really intend anything of the kind. One little knot I found in my own logic is where I was talking about two kinds of result of an intention, the kamma result sometime in the future and the result of the action more or less in the present. That result of an action is actually a kamma result of a past intention, not the intention that initiated the action. If you think about it this is extremely counter intuitive: the cup of tea that I supposedly made I did not really make, rather, the cup of tea is the result of an unknown intention that arose possibly in a former life. I don't know what to say about this except that it points out the impractical nature of the kamma theory. Any ideas? Larry 41236 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Ken H., Kelvin and Howard - Thank you all for the great discussion that is at the core of the Dhamma. Here I have combined three messages togther, # 41211, 41213, and 41216, to give a single reply/discussion below. Because of the combination, this message is rather long. I apologize for that. ------------------ KH: The Buddha warned us that his Dhamma was extremely profound and that it was verifiable only by the wise. I think we need to come to terms with that. We need to acknowledge our ignorance. And we need to know that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and totally inadequate for vipassana. How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. Kel: Yet at the same time, these convential things and knowledge are the objects to utilize in our path to panna. Observing and analyzing superficial things to penetrate the aberrant truth they represent. ... There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow backwards so can only alter the future course. Howard: Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut- abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the reality, and they are not confused. Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is acting". There IS acting. There IS willing. Moreover, all true conventional statements that are made are, indeed, TRUE. They have to be properly understood, not taken at literal face value, but *not* just dismissed as false. T: I believe both conventional knowledge and ultimate-realities knowledge must work to support each other in order that the practitioner (I rather say "meditator") may be able to progress from the worlding level [where the anatta truth is not comprehended, and the conventional truth is the only way of communication] to the mundane (lokiya) level [where the basic understanding of the right view is mature and the Path is near], and finally to supra-mundane(lokuttara) level of the Ariyas where the anatta truth is fully penetrated at the end. ---------------------- > Howard: "Certainly there is no deliberate action to choose a particular > sense door or what arises through that door at a particular moment, > but there is choosing to embellish or not kusala and akusala states, > influencing future experience. That is what right effort is about. KH: Tep, do you agree with Howard? I think he is sidestepping the question of anatta. In what way or ways can we choose to influence future experiences? Where is the being that chooses? Aren't there just conditioned dhammas? Howard: Indeed, just conditioned dhammas - and even they are wrongly understood as little self-existent actors! No being is required. But to speak of beings and other "things", which the Buddha did all the time, is useful speech. An arahant, were s/he to decide to directly communicate only reality, would abandon the attempt at communcating entirely, and simply remain silent. There is no communication that conveys only reality to worldlings and lesser ariyans. T: Ken, I agree with Howard. The disagreement you have possibly stems from the diametrically different viewpoint - paramattha desana (explanation true in the highest sense) versus vohara desana (conventional exposition). --------------- Howard:> "There *is* the possibility of cetana influencing the direction of mind. The Buddha said that this is possible, and that if it were not > possible he would not say it is. KH: Again, do you agree with that? Is it what the Buddha taught? Does cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise instead. Similarly with kusala vipaka cittas, they can cause kusala javana cittas to keep arising instead of lobha. It's realizing what cannot be changed (past) and what can be changed (present), amoha. It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. This is more technial argument for the same thing Howard said. Howard: Yes, that conventional action is one of many conventional actions that a conventional person can conventioally decide to conventionally carry out. In *actuality* there is no being who can hear or contemplate the Dhamma, and in actuality there is no reality called "the Dhamma". T: Howard and Kelvin are right, Ken. ----------------------- KH: Furthermore, I suspect the first category - those who attempt to follow the Buddha's teaching - could include people who advocate wrong view. That is, the view that enlightenment is attained through "striving" in the conventional sense of the word (as in the Ogha Sutta). But people who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" do not necessarily believe that "standing still " (doing nothing), is the way. We can be conscientious worldling Dhamma students without subscribing to either of the wrong views. T: Do the people 'who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" ' believe in right effort (samma-vayama)? Please notice that right effort means right exertions as stated in the sutta quote: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." --- [MN 44 ] So it should be very clear that without the "right effort" there is no right mindfulness of the four foundations (body, feeling, mind, mind-object). Without right mindfulness (satipatthana) how could we condition panna (penetration of the Truths) to arise? Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 1/23/05 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 1/23/05 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: 41237 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma Dear Nina - > N: When I read suttas, I cannot help getting the impression that the >Buddha speaks all the time about six doorways, the objects >experienced through them and the cittas that experience them. T: Thank you for gently disagree with concept of "keeping awareness inside" while shutting off the other 5 doors. It is true that no less than 99.99% of the suttas, one of which is the Maha-salayatanika Sutta, is about the six doorways, "the objects experienced through them and the cittas that experience them", like you said. However, the lack of majority support does not mean that Upasika Kee was wrong. Have you read the Potthila Thera's story yet? Another evidence of this special "way to Arahatship" is given by Venerable Ananda Thera in AN IV.170, Yuganaddha Sutta. "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? ... ... ... "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 22-01-2005 01:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > T: The main idea of the article "Reading the Mind" (that was translated from a talk by Upasika Kee Nanayon) is that when one is intent on watching the mind door, keeping awareness inside and from taking on outside preoccupations, all the other five sense doors will be taken care of - automatically. The mind that is trained this way will eventually become empty -- i.e. free from mental formations. This is the same idea in the Potthila Thera's story. 41238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' Hi Jon and Larry, and Joop, op 23-01-2005 14:45 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jsabbott@n...: Hi Jon, I had to laugh about moving the furniture with kusala citta, bumping on a toe etc. I like your examples of spontaneous kusala, and these are exactly what Larry does, I have noticed. Especially c and d I noticed. He helped someone who was in trouble and I appreciated this. He gave the link to Soma Thera, he types Visuddhimagga himself considering this as bhavana. So this helps with 1 also, while he is working. J: In very general terms, I was saying that kusala can, and does at times, > arise without our intending it to do so. Have you ever (a) found > yourself pondering over dhamma issues as you go about your daily > routine, or (b) refrained from an adverse comment to someone because the > thought popped into your mind that it just isn¹t necessary to say that, > or (c) offered a friendly or reassuring comment to someone who appears > to be uncomfortable or upset, or (d) on the spur of the moment offered > your time or expertise to someone for their benefit? These are all > instances of kusala arising without any sense of it being part of a > Œpractice¹ or something to be made to occur. N: Good examples for daily life, appreciating the value of kusala. I am thinking of Joop who likes the social aspect of Dhamma. I discussed with Lodewijk that by knowing that we all are citta, cetasika and rupa, arising because of conditions, our attitude to others changes. We become more tolerant, although at times we fail. We at least see the value of thinking less of self and more of others. L: Hence the necessity for repeated application and also >> the cultivation of concentration skills and contemplation of the >> dhamma. N: concentration skills: this should be together with pañña. When the Buddha speaks about concentration this is always implied. It is different from before the Buddha's time. Jhana is not for everybody, we have to study the Visuddhimagga, lest we take for jhana what is not truly jhana. J: However, with repeated contemplation of the dhamma such as you mention > there will be times when this kind of resolve occurs naturally and > spontaneously, and that is much more likely to be kusala I would say. Nina. 41239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali users Hi James, thank you for your post. I am glad about your thoughts re Pali. In Myanmar and Sri Lanka children learn chanting, learning texts by heart. That is such a great help, then you do not forget. It becomes very natural. Nina. op 23-01-2005 14:40 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > No, I don't think you did because it wasn't directed to you. 41240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kelvin, op 20-01-2005 21:34 schreef kelvin_lwin op kelvin_lwin@y...: > Kel: It's clear what is known by each tender insight due to their > descriptions. But how come people who reached the tender insights > (even sankharupekkha) go backs to their akusala ways? N: Because akusala is not eradicated, and different kinds are eradicated at the stages of insight. It seems to me very discouraging if the person who attains sotapatti magga does not even know this. What are we doing then, developing right understanding? And the result is not known? K: So to me > magga is nothing more than mature panna that one cannot lose > anymore. Every sotapanna no longer have potential to commit akuala > that will lead to 4 lower realms and the cetasikas that are source > of such actions. N: Right. But Magga paññaa is altogether different from mundane pañña. K: That doesn't mean every sotapanna know what has > taken place and can declare themselves to be such and such. This > would account for the fact you get different kinds of sotapannas > with varying degrees of lingering in different lokas. N: Yes, there are many different kinds of sotapannas. Some have only one rebirth, but anyway they have not more than seven rebirths. >> N: From the Tipitaka I get it that the order of the four stages is > fixed, >> think of the four pairs of men, indicating the magga-cittas and > phalacittas >> of the four stages. > Kel: I was referring to reviewing nanas which some put right > after magga-vithi. My point was it can happen right away, many days > later or never as they might've already achieved higher maggas. I > think it's basic knowledge that 8 happen in order precisely because > of the phala cittas following magga citta. N:I was mentioning this, because some people believe that phalacitta does not follow immediately upon magga-citta. There were some debates. **** Nina. 41241 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Howard, well said. I especially like: Otherwise we delude ourselves. But, it is difficult, cittas go so fast. Of course, it depends on pañña. You said kind words, but I do not have a wonderful practice, that is said too much. Just a beginner with a lot of forgetfulness. But I had some helpful reminders because in August Lodewijk was not well at all. I thought we better have more sutta reading since he was not inclined to read himself. So I started reading aloud twice a day after meals, we call it our 'holy lecture'. Sickness has positive sides. But since India everything is better. He now reads suttas also for himself. And after some technical hurdles he reads Perfections in the recorder at Kh Sujin's request to him. Nina. op 23-01-2005 15:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as > best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from akusala > as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging kusala > as possible. 41242 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 a Pilgrimage India 3 a Chapter 3. Satipatthåna Satipatthåna pertains to our conduct in every day life. The goal of the teachings is detachment from the concept of self and from all akusala. When we cling less to the idea of self there are more conditions for wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. Mindfulness and right understanding of all dhammas that appear lead to detachment from the concept of self. Sati and paññå are realities that can only arise when there are the right conditions, nobody can cause their arising at will. This will be clearer when we consider the different levels of sati. Sati arises with dåna, with síla and with bhåvanå, including samatha and vipassanå. Sati is non-forgetful of what is kusala, it arises with each kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for generosity, sati is heedful, non-forgetful, so that this opportunity is not wasted. When sati does not arise, we are forgetful of kusala and we are unable to be generous. When there is an opportunity for dåna, we are often neglectful and we waste this opportunity. When sati does not arise, we are unable to give, we are stingy. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Also reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. In order to understand what sati of satipatthåna is, we have to know what its object is. The Buddha speaks about all realities we can experience one at a time through the six doors. He speaks about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, attachment, anger. These dhammas occur in daily life, and we can thoroughly penetrate their true characteristics only by mindfulness and understanding when they appear at this moment. Therefore, we should ask ourselves: what does paññå understand at this moment? Does it understand what seeing is, what hearing is? After seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions defilements arise on account of what we experience. We should realize all such moments as conditioned dhammas. **** Nina. 41243 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:40pm Subject: remaining calm / was: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi James, -------------- > James: Hmmm…you were able to remain calm when cut off on the highway- an action that could have killed you- and yet you couldn't remain calm by a remark I made in a post? Odd. > ------------------------- Maybe it's not so odd: I can think of several possible reasons. The thoughtless motorist was unknown to me; you, on the other hand, are one of a small group of people I spend half my life with. -------------------------------- J: > Really, you shouldn't pay me that much heed. -------------------------------- How much heed should I pay to your telling me not to pay you that much heed? :-) Nothing's ever simple, is it? We shouldn't get angry, we should do this, we shouldn't do that, but things just seem to happen against our will. I think it is because we don't really know what we are talking about. To really, deeply, understand why we shouldn't get angry, we have to understand that there are only dhammas. ------------- J: > Someone made an off-hand remark about `those who think they are jhana masters and sotapannas' -------------- I wonder who that could have been. :-] (innocent face) ----------------------- J: > and I knew it was directed at me (can't remember who wrote it and don't want to search now). And you know what I did? I smiled and ignored it. Who cares what people think about me? You shouldn't care what I think about others either. ----------------------- The only reason I shouldn't care is because there are only dhammas. If there really were an entity called James, or Ken H, then of course I should care. But, again, there is no point in pretending to understand just because we should understand. We should be arahants, but we aren't. And it is important to know that we haven't even begun to be arahants - that is, we aren't sotapannas. We are a long way from being sotapannas because we have hardly even begun to know that there are only dhammas. That's that way I see it, anyway. Ken H 41244 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:17pm Subject: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hi all I asked this the other day: >>I can't remember now which Nikaya it is in, but there is in my opinion a very impportant sutta that gets at this issue. It is about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. Does anyone know the sutta I'm referring to? Since then, I've looked through my sutta anthologies and googled the above title phrase but with no avail. It must not have been "protecting" the truth, I know I did read a sutta with a similar gist (unless I completely misunderstood it, quite possible.) Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 41245 From: Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Vism.XIV,133 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [ACCORDING TO ASSOCIATION WITH CONSCIOUSNESS] 133. I. (1) Herein, firstly, those associated with the first sense-sphere profitable consciousness (1) amount to thirty-six, that is to say, the constant ones, which are twenty-seven given in the texts as such, and the four 'or-whatever-states',59 and also the five inconstant ones (cf. Dhs.1). Herein, the twenty-seven given as such are these: (i) contact, (ii) volition, (iii) applied thought, (iv) sustained thought, (v) happiness (interest), (vi) energy, (vii) life, (viii) concentration, (ix) faith, (x) mindfulness, (xi) conscience, (xii) shame, (xiii) non-greed, (xiv) non-hate, (xv) non-delusion, (xvi) tranquility of the [mental] body, (xvii) tranquility of consciousness, (xviii) lightness of the [mental] body, (xix) lightness of consciousness, (xx) malleability of the [mental] body, (xxi) malleability of consciousness, (xxii) wieldiness of the [mental] body, (xxiii) wieldiness of consciousness, (xxiv) proficiency of the [mental] body, (xxv) proficiency of consciousness, (xxvi) rectitude of the mental body, (xxvii) rectitude of consciousness. The four 'or-whatever-states' are these: (xxviii) zeal (desire), (xxix) resolution, (xxx) attention (bringing to mind), (xxxi) specific neutrality. And the five inconstant are these: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. These last arise sometimes [but not always], and when they arise they do not do so together. ------------------------------- Note 59. Yevaapanaka (ye-vaa-pana-ka) is commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase (ye-vaa-pana- tasmi"m samaye a~n~ne pi atti pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa'--'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1). Cf. also M.i,85. 41246 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: remaining calm / was: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Ken: Maybe it's not so odd: I can think of several possible reasons. The thoughtless motorist was unknown to me; you, on the other hand, are one of a small group of people I spend half my life with. James: Interesting. I still don't consider myself as a member of the `group' you describe. I see myself as an outsider…maybe that is because I want to be an outsider. Hmmm…hard to say. But anyway, I am really, really sorry if I upset you too much (though I meant to upset you a little bit…that is the Zen in me ;-)) Ken: How much heed should I pay to your telling me not to pay you that much heed? :-) James: Oh, a koan. I like it! ;-)) Seriously, I just wish you wouldn't pay me that much heed (then I can remain the outsider), it wasn't a command. Ken: To really, deeply, understand why we shouldn't get angry, we have to understand that there are only dhammas. James: If that works for you, okay. Personally, I try to not get angry because it causes suffering for me and for others. Different perspective than yours, but the same end result, hopefully. Ken: I wonder who that could have been. :-] (innocent face) James: Oh, you rascal! ;-) No big deal. Ken: The only reason I shouldn't care is because there are only dhammas. If there really were an entity called James, or Ken H, then of course I should care. James: No, you shouldn't care what people think because then you become their prisoner. There are entities called James and Ken H., and they deserve love, respect, and compassion. Ken: But, again, there is no point in pretending to understand just because we should understand. We should be arahants, but we aren't. And it is important to know that we haven't even begun to be arahants - that is, we aren't sotapannas. We are a long way from being sotapannas because we have hardly even begun to know that there are only dhammas. That's that way I see it, anyway. James: Okay, if that's the way you see it. But, if you don't believe that you are a sotapanna then you had better get to work quickly to become one, because this lifetime could be your only chance. You could be reborn into one of the other realms of existence, never come across a Buddha's teaching again, and be lost forever in samsara. It's not a very pleasant perspective is it? What qualifies one as a sotapanna is a very controversial subject because there are different opinions. To keep things simple, I just turn to what the Buddha said: "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks." James: The first three fetters are personality belief, belief in rites and rituals, and skeptical doubt. Now Ken, you obviously don't believe in the existence of a self (a bit of overkill on that one ;-)), you don't believe in rites and rituals leading to purification, and I don't see any evidence that you have doubt as to the Buddha's teachings. Now, to my understanding, you qualify as a sotapanna. I am hearing of all kinds of other qualifications from the commentaries: like no jealousy, no wrong views, and perfect sila, but I don't believe any of it. A sotapanna could live for up to seven more lifetimes and I am supposed to believe that this entity would never experience jealousy, wrong views, and would always keep perfect sila? I don't buy it. Just think about today's world. For example, as a gay man living in the Middle East I have to sometimes lie about my sexuality or risk being put in jail. I don't want to lie but I have to. How may other such situations could an entity expect to find itself in in seven different lifetimes? Does that mean I'm not a sotapanna because I lie about my sexuality sometimes? Well, you may think so but I don't. I go back to what the Buddha taught. If I'm wrong...well, I hope I don't meet you in hell. ;-) Metta, James 41247 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: Radiation of Metta Hi James, Christine and all This is a topic that always interests me and I was involved in the last discussion so let me jump on in. > Now, Roja probably responded so quickly and so strongly because it > was the Buddha radiating this metta! We can all radiate this type > of metta to people, and help them (influence them toward good), I keep going back and forth on this one. I still think it's better if the metta arises in an unexpected way, due to conditions. I am often aware of this sort of thing going on in daily life, the way I'll be irritable one minute and quite suddenly feel a friendliness arise due to something going on, often something I see, often less clear why. I really find this kind of "suprised by metta" feeling very precious and I still tend to feel that sitting at home and intentionally generating metta *might* take away from a very rare experience, an experience which allows me a glimpse of the conditioned nature of realities. On the other hand, I also do know from experience that reflecting on metta in the morning will condition more of it to arise in a much more predictable way during the day, and this will help me to be harmless towards others. No doubt about that. So why not do it? I guess it still feels sometimes like a coping mechanism, a comfort zone, and I really do believe the BUddha did not intend us to be comfortable in a predictable way - he intended us to learn from any reality that arises, be it pleasant or unpleasant. As for the second part, about helping other people towards good through radiating metta towards them, again how much more helpful it is to others when the friendliness arises from us, through us, in a natural way. The other day at work I was irritable and didn't feel like teaching two consecutive classes of low level students. (I work at a school where my schedule changes day by day, with different students much of the time.) But there was a fellow in there who was just beaming, and in a real way (I'm sure we all know people whose friendliness feels insincere) and almost immediately I felt my irritablilty ease away thanks to him. And that conditioned friendliness on my part that I was able to share with students I met later in the day. So yes, he did help me towards good. I think it's safe to say, however, that he had no intention of doing so. I'm going to keep thinking about this, but for now I still think it is best not to intentionally radiate metta (just my opinion of course.) If we did it *might* be a case of seeking to imitate the Buddha in a way for which we are not yet prepared and which might only lead us down a pleasant garden path. (snip) > This is why I stress the importance of metta meditation, because it > benefits not only oneself but also others. (I know the harsh > language I use in posts may make it seem like I am a real jerk > sometimes, but I am not really that way. I wish metta for everyone, > everyday. We share an interest in uprooting the unwholesome roots and cultivating the wholesome roots. We all share that interest. I think it was Ayya Khema who said "we all have the same job to do" or words to that effect when referring to the above. Our different approaches to this job come from different conditions and accumulations, that's all. Non-radiated Metta, Phil 41248 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Nina:> the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct of a > monk who > > is non-arahat and arahat. =========== > Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a > difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. Dear Kel, I might have this wrong but I think an Anagami has absolutely no sense desire. They can't have sex, enjoy wearing good clothes, etc. I take that any serious Buddhist layepople must also be like this? RobertK 41249 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:18pm Subject: Re: Radiation of Metta Hello Phil, James and all, It has been said that radiating/pervading the Brahma Viharas - in particular, metta and karuna - is the nearest equivalent to prayer in the Theravada tradition. Here is an interesting three page article from the New York Times: "Can Prayers Heal? Critics Say Studies Go Past Science's Reach" October 10, 2004 By BENEDICT CAREY http://tinyurl.com/65o3j metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi James, Christine and all > > This is a topic that always interests me and I was involved in the > last discussion so let me jump on in. > > > Now, Roja probably responded so quickly and so strongly because it > > was the Buddha radiating this metta! We can all radiate this type > > of metta to people, and help them (influence them toward good), > > I keep going back and forth on this one. I still think it's better > if the metta arises in an unexpected way, due to conditions. I am > often aware of this sort of thing going on in daily life, the way > I'll be irritable one minute and quite suddenly feel a friendliness > arise due to something going on, often something I see, often less > clear why. I really find this kind of "suprised by metta" feeling > very precious and I still tend to feel that sitting at home and > intentionally generating metta > *might* take away from a very rare experience, an experience which > allows me a glimpse of the conditioned nature of realities. > > On the other hand, I also do know from experience that reflecting > on metta in the morning will condition more of it to arise in a much > more predictable way during the day, and this will help me to be > harmless towards others. No doubt about that. So why not do it? I > guess it still feels sometimes like a coping mechanism, a comfort > zone, and I really do believe the BUddha did not intend us to be > comfortable in a predictable way - he intended us to learn from any > reality that arises, be it pleasant or unpleasant. > > As for the second part, about helping other people towards good > through radiating metta towards them, again how much more helpful it > is to others when the friendliness arises from us, through us, in a > natural way. The other day at work I was irritable and didn't feel > like teaching two consecutive classes of low level students. (I work > at a school where my schedule changes day by day, with different > students much of the time.) But there was a fellow in there who was > just beaming, and in a real way (I'm sure we all know people whose > friendliness feels insincere) and almost immediately I felt my > irritablilty ease away thanks to him. And that conditioned > friendliness on my part that I was able to share with students I met > later in the day. So yes, he did help me towards good. I think it's > safe to say, however, that he had no intention of doing so. > > I'm going to keep thinking about this, but for now I still think it > is best not to intentionally radiate metta (just my opinion of > course.) If we did it *might* be a case of seeking to imitate the > Buddha in a way for which we are not yet prepared and which might > only lead us down a pleasant garden path. > > (snip) > > > > This is why I stress the importance of metta meditation, because it > > benefits not only oneself but also others. (I know the harsh > > language I use in posts may make it seem like I am a real jerk > > sometimes, but I am not really that way. I wish metta for > everyone, > > everyday. > > We share an interest in uprooting the unwholesome roots and > cultivating the wholesome roots. We all share that interest. I think > it was Ayya Khema who said "we all have the same job to do" or words > to that effect when referring to the above. Our different approaches > to this job come from different conditions and accumulations, that's > all. > > Non-radiated Metta, > Phil 41250 From: seisen_au Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hi Philip, Canki Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya #95 If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. Steve. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > >>I can't remember now which Nikaya it is in, but there is in my > opinion a very impportant sutta that gets at this issue. It is > about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith > while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. > Does anyone know the sutta I'm referring to? 41251 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Nina, > > Kel: It's clear what is known by each tender insight due to their > > descriptions. But how come people who reached the tender insights > > (even sankharupekkha) go backs to their akusala ways? > N: Because akusala is not eradicated, and different kinds are eradicated at > the stages of insight. It seems to me very discouraging if the person who > attains sotapatti magga does not even know this. What are we doing then, > developing right understanding? And the result is not known? Kel: It's not really eradicated at the roots by tender insights, just temporarily lessened. If given a chance and time, the small seed will again accumulate akusala tendencies. Magga citta we agree is what destroys the seed once and for all. As for sotapanna, what does knowing the result give you? Can you do anything about it either way? No, you just do what you need to do by continuing the practice. So I personally don't see it as discouraging at all. If anything I fear a false positive because it might stop the practice. Like the story of an elder who fancied himself an arahat and when asked to create an elephant that came toward him; he forgot it's his own creation and started to run. Ashin Sariputta I believe caught him by the robes and asked would an arahat still have fear in them? > K: So to me > > magga is nothing more than mature panna that one cannot lose > > anymore. Every sotapanna no longer have potential to commit akuala > > that will lead to 4 lower realms and the cetasikas that are source > > of such actions. > N: Right. But Magga paññaa is altogether different from mundane pañña. Kel: Not so different really, a fully mature mundane panna leads to magga panna. > K: That doesn't mean every sotapanna know what has > > taken place and can declare themselves to be such and such. This > > would account for the fact you get different kinds of sotapannas > > with varying degrees of lingering in different lokas. > N: Yes, there are many different kinds of sotapannas. Some have only one > rebirth, but anyway they have not more than seven rebirths. Kel: Not exactly true as it's only maximum seven rebirths in sensual realms. The lowest sotapanna is guaranteed to be reborn in same or higher realm only. Hence they can never fall to the lower 4 lower miserable realms since a sotapanna would be in at least the human realm. In fact, owing to this is why arupa realms are no longer bad realms to be reborn into for sotapannas as they can keep progressing. My main point was that not all sotapannas are created equal, in fact not all arahats are either. They have differing degrees of knowledge and power. - kel 41252 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. Hi Robert, > Nina:> the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in conduct > of a > > monk who > > > is non-arahat and arahat. > =========== > > Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a > > difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. > Dear Kel, > I might have this wrong but I think an Anagami has absolutely no > sense desire. They can't have sex, enjoy wearing good clothes, etc. > I take that any serious Buddhist layepople must also be like this? Kel: heh, you got me there Robert. I chose to use the highest attainable stage for layperson for illustration only. Sotapannas and sakagamis still enjoy the sensual pleasures of course, why else do they come back to the realms. :) I believe Goenka's assistant teachers all take vow of celibacy. Quite a few of them are married couples who actually work together for courses, including himself. He said it should be a natural part of the practice, there just comes a time when those intense craving such as sex will just reduce. Not to say willful suppression is the way because that will lead to problems. For a really seriously layperson, it MIGHT be a sign of their progress with no definitive implication. It should be a natural celibacy and non-desire for sensual pleasures, not fake or forced. In some sense, we waste a lot of time chasing after those pleasures and it can be spent better. - kel 41253 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:09pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Kel, I was saying we needed to "acknowledge our ignorance." You wrote: -------------------- > Sounds like too much self-deprecation to me. Conceit is even present in anagamis so it is a great danger. At the same time, you need confidence and strength to walk the path. > -------------------- At the risk of stating the obvious, I'd like to point out that only kusala consciousness can be a part of Dhamma practice. Intellectual understanding of ignorance can be kusala, and direct experience of the [just fallen away] moha-cetasika, can be kusala (with or without panna). On the other hand, neither self-deprecation nor conceit is kusala, and they cannot lead to enlightenment. So, when you said "Conceit . . . is a great danger. At the same time you need confidence and strength to walk the path," I don't think you meant a little bit of conceit could be a good thing. Did you? ------------- > Ken H: that our conventional way of knowing the world is superficial and totally inadequate for vipassana. > Kel: > Yet at the same time, these convential things and knowledge are the objects to utilize in our path to panna. Observing and analyzing superficial things to penetrate the aberrant truth they represent. --------------- Sorry to be argumentative all the time, but I wonder if 'observation of conventional reality' really is a part of the way. I know in the Tipitaka, for example, a housewife attained enlightenment when she realised she had burnt the curry, but I wonder if the Buddha recommended 'mindfulness of curry.' I don't think so. Many other teachers would recommend mindfulness of curry, but the Buddha's teaching was always profound. It was always about absolute reality. ----------------------- > Ken H: How can there be a practice when there is no being who can practise? > It's a hard question to answer, but we do need to find the answer > (the Middle Way). We must not sidestep the question. > Kel: There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow backwards so can only alter the future course. ------------------------- I'm not so sure about the river analogy. The present moment can be properly understood as being part of a continuous stream of moments - there have been moments in the past and there will be moments in the future - but no actual stream of moments exists. You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question' but we need to be pretty strict with this one. :-) ---------------- KH: > Does cetana have any influence over what the next citta will be? > Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise instead. -------------- I know cetana is a universal cetasika and so, without it, there can be no consciousness at all. But I'm not at all sure of what you are saying here. ------------------------- Kel: > Similarly with kusala vipaka cittas, they can cause kusala javana cittas to keep arising instead of lobha. > It's realizing what cannot be changed (past) and what can be changed (present), amoha. -------------------------- If there are the conditions (including the accumulated tendency) for kusala citta to arise in the given circumstances, then it will arise. But there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be willed to arise. ---------------------------------- Kel: > It's setting up conditions for a positive future without attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. -------------------------------- Well maybe it is in effect, but the teaching is to know the present reality. It is not to have concern for the future. ---------------- KH: > > Angulimala practised vipassana while he was trying to kill the > Buddha. His monstrously akusala cetana had no control over the > arising of panna. > Kel: Buddha exhausted him physically while letting his mind to calm down to receive dhamma. -------------------------- No, the idea of a mind that calms down over a period of time is just a conventional reality. The real mind (citta) arises, lives and dies in a tiny fraction of a second. -------------------------- Kel: > Purely speaking of vithis, akusala javana and kusala javana cannot arise in the same vithi. So by definition the akusala cetana or whatever it was, already had no control before panna arose. -------------------------- Exactly! But that is part of the point I have been making. --------------- Kel: > Like the story of a woman who was so grief-stricken with the death of her son, she cannot receive dhamma even with enough capacity to. So Buddha sent her off The journey calmed her mind and reduced intensity of the grief so she's no longer blinded by it. Then when she came back with a convential understanding that no one is free from death of a loved one, she can finally understand Buddha's words to become an ariya. -------------------- We need a thorough understanding of Abhidhamma before we can understand suttas. For example, we need to know that the story of a bereaved mother was just that - a story. In reality, there were moments of thinking with grief, followed by moments of bhavanga, followed perhaps by some moments with audible object and pleasant feeling, more bhavanga, and then more moments with grief, and so on. I understand the Buddha's teaching always applies to the present moment. If the present moment is a moment of extreme grief, then that can be the object of satipatthana. There is no putting it off until a more convenient time. Putting off will never condition satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. I don't think the rest of your post was imperative to the point you were making, so I'll snip it for brevity. Glad to see you back in the "anatta argument." Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Kel: Time to interject into this anatta argument again I guess. > > 41254 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:57pm Subject: Re: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hi all Thanks Steve! > Canki Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya #95 > > If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite > conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To > this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To > this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the > safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the > truth. I may have misinterpreted this, but it seems important and encouraging for me in my Abhidhamma studies. There is so much there that must be swallowed whole, if you will. If I try to confirm empirically whether there are bhavanga cittas or not, for example, I won't get anywhere. It helps to believe in very subtle/sublime dhammas whole-heartedly, even before we can possibly know them to be true. It seems to me that this is the only way for beginners to approach Abhidhamma - otherwise we get stuck in an excess of rational investigation. Does this sound like a proper interpretation of the above? Metta, Phil 41255 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > Nina:> the monk is serious you cannot see the difference in > conduct > > of a > > > monk who > > > > is non-arahat and arahat. > > =========== > > > Kel: similiarly if a layperson is serious, you cannot see a > > > difference in conduct of a non-anagami and anagami. > > Dear Kel, > > I might have this wrong but I think an Anagami has absolutely no > > sense desire. They can't have sex, enjoy wearing good clothes, > etc. > > I take that any serious Buddhist layepople must also be like this? > > Kel: I believe Goenka's assistant > teachers all take vow of celibacy. Quite a few of them are married > couples who actually work together for courses, including himself. > He said it should be a natural part of the practice, there just > comes a time when those intense craving such as sex will just > reduce. ================= Dear Kel, So have all of Mr. Goenka's teachers have naturally given up sensual desire? If they have why do they need to take a vow, or are you assuming they do? I haven't read of all serious laypeople doing that in the Buddha's time, but I only know a few texts. Robertk 41256 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:58pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 106 - Concentration/ekaggataa (b) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** The word 'object' (årammaùa) as it is used in the Abhidhamma does not have the same meaning as the word 'object' or 'thing' we use in common language. In common language we may call a thing such as a vase an object. We may think that we can see a vase, touch it and know that it is a vase all at the same time. In reality there are different cittas which know different 'objects' (årammaùas) through their appropriate doorways. These cittas arise one at a time and know only one object at a time. The citta which sees knows only visible object, it cannot know tactile object or a concept. Visible object is that which is experienced through the eyes. What is seen cannot be touched. We may understand this in theory, but the truth should be verified by being mindful of different objects which appear one at a time. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41257 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, Howard and Ken O, Ken, perhaps you meant `Sujin' and not `Sukin' in your post about the dinosaurs? But even though I don't feel like I am one, admire them dinosaurs, I surely do! ;-) And Tep, when you urge all of us to applaud (perhaps you mean Sadhu, after all `applause' feels quite akusala doesn't it?) the mentioned post by Howard (though I like many of his other ones), I think I would be disloyal to the dinosaurs if I did. ;-) I am quite behind in my reading of the posts, and perhaps others have already given good and satisfactory answers. Hope you don't mind some comments from me anyway. Tep: > In his remarkable dialogue with Ken O. (message # 41188), Howard > said it well and he deserves a loud applause from all of us, including > Ken O.. Indeed, the consciousness in charge is responsible for our > actions, including the outcomes of our dhamma practice. The > practitioners who make progress towards higher insight knowledges > do not just think, "Let be, let it be". Panna comes from "deliberate > cultivation", It is to Howard that I once stated that as followers of the Buddha's Teachings, most of us have the impression that we are more or less *on* the middle course. So looking from where we are, other so called Buddhists are either on the left or the right side of this Middle Path. But maybe it is us who are on say, the left, and so even someone in the middle would appear right, no? But I think this is because our understanding of the Buddha's Teachings is still quite superficial and the way we consider it is mostly philosophical and often speculative. This is so even when we have come to the conclusion that `direct experience' is what matters as against `intellectual appreciation'. Because not knowing in practice the difference between concept and reality, we end up being quite taken in by conventional ideas of `practice' and so on. The common Thai usage of the word `patipatti' for instance, means `sitting practice', but this is not the meaning of the Pali. In Pali it is equivalent to a moment of `satipatthana', and in this there is no `person' who is doing any sitting practice. The question of `how to practice' is I think misplaced. There are only conditioned realities, some of which point to the wrong direction and some to the right. Appreciating the value of those dhammas that are positive is itself, positive. And if indeed there is any appreciation of the anatta and other conditioned nature of these same dhammas, then other positive dhammas may arise, like samvega, patience and courage. There is certainly no call for `sitting' nor is there any `reason' to `deliberately look'. From the stand point of someone who believes in "doing" something, this will be perceived as thinking, "Let be, let it be" in a fatalistic way, but samvega and khanti are accompanied by viriya too, no? Who knows which particular dhammas are conditioned to arise subsequently, there may even be many, many moments of sati and panna. Tep, these moments are the only real Middle Path, i.e. Satipatthana - Vipassana - Magga. The rest of the time we can talk about a lot of things, however I think that our view is consistent with this path of practice and with the conditioned nature of realities, particularly them being anatta, anicca and dukkha, in so far as we do not give importance to any particular time, place and posture and have any conventional idea about `practice'. The only real obstacle to satipatthana is miccha ditthi and one manifestation of this is the idea of `formal sitting' or that "Panna comes from "deliberate cultivation"". Panna does indeed require `development', in Thai `charoen', however this has nothing to do with what we understand by `intention' or `deliberateness'. As Jon has pointed out to Howard or Larry, this is all an aspect of `thinking'. We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather "panna" in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of `self', `other' and `activity', then even this is wrong. Some think that the objection to formal practice is `lobha' cetasika. No, the objection is towards `miccha ditthi', though this is accompanied by lobha. Also I note that those who believe in formal practice, they seem to over stress the need to practice sila. It is not that I don't think sila is important, but because `straightening of view' is primary, and part of this is being alert to `self view', drawing particular attention to other kusala does not occur. What I am trying to say is that even sila is mixed with `self view' by those who believe in "doing" and this makes the following of the precepts less pure. Enough for now. Excuse me for the bluntness, today I am feeling O.K. after six days of feeling quite unwell, implication; I read some of the posts here with irritation. :-) Metta, Sukin. 41258 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the feedback also. Here we may see a bit of a storm > brewing ;-). … S: Well, I took shelter for the weekend, but back to face it ;-) …. > James: This sounds fine to me, except I think you are missing > something: the eighth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: Jhana. …. S: I hope the present chapter on concentration from 'cetasikas' helps clarify why I'm not stressing jhana. We have something of an impasse here. …. > I read something in an article that best expresses what I want to say, > so I will just quote it. From "Practical Advice for Meditators" by > Bhikkhu Khantipalo: > > "One hears such remarks as, "What's the use of books and study?" Or > even, "The development of calm is a waste of time! One should only > develop insight." … S: Now assuming for the moment that you see what I (and some others) say to be represented by the second half of this statement, let me comment straight away that calm is present with every moment of wholesome consciousness. For example, at moments of giving, at moments of abstention from bad speech or killing, at moments of wise reflection on the Triple Gem or at moments of awareness (satipatthana), there is calm. Should we make a point of developing calm (samatha)? If we just try to have more calm by focusing on an object such as breath without any real understanding of the difference between wholesome and unwholesome moments of consciousness , then it's highly unlikely there will be any development of calm, however pleasant and tranquil the feelings may seem. If, on the other hand, we learn more about the distinction between calm with pleasant feeling, attachment with pleasant feeling and other mental states which follow each other so very closely, then calm will develop as a consequence of such understanding. Even at times of giving, reflecting on the Triple Gem or sitting quietly,mental states change rapidly and are bound to be very mixed. Calm will not be developed by desiring it or trying to have it arise with an idea of self in the hot-seat. …. <…> >Books and their study are useful to > some people who wish to gain a good background of what Lord Buddha > really said, before taking up more intensive practice. …. S: If we wait for another time or occasion or have an idea of an 'intensive practice' to develop satipatthana, it's bound to be motivated again by an idea of self or of certain practices being the way, rather than understanding the Dhamma. I like the Sappurisa Sutta (The True Man) a lot. Here is just one quote for now (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "Moreover, an untrue man who is learned…who is expert in the Discipline…who is a preacher of the Dhamma….who is a forest dweller…who is a refuse-rag wearer…an alms-food eater..a tree-root dweller….a charnel-ground dweller…an open-air dweller…a continual sitter….an any-bed user…a one-session eater considers thus: 'I am a one-session eater; but these other bhikkhus are not one-session eaters.' [the same for these are 9 of the 13 ascetic practices]. So he lauds himself and disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of an untrue man. "But a true man considers thus: 'It is not because of being a one-session eater that states of greed, hatred, or delusion are destroyed. Even though someone many not be a one-session eater, yet if he has entered upon the way that accords with the Dhamma, entered upon the proper way, and conducts himself according to the Dhamma, he should be honoured for that, he should be praised for that.' "So, putting the practice of the way first, he neither lauds himself nor disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of a true man." ***** S: Now you will rightly say, we're not talking about being a one-session eater, an ope-air dweller, a continual sitter and so on. But anytime we have the idea that being in 'accord with Dhamma' has anything to do with particular actions we follow or even association or identification with particular states, including jhanas, as the sutta continues to elaborate on, then there is no development of detachment from conditioned realities and no living according to the Dhamma. Even when we talk about association with wise friends in other suttas(sappurisa is also used), it is the quality of wisdom developed by the ariyans that is being referred to. I wrote about this in a detailed post before. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32824 …. >As for the > other assertion, no real insight (only delusive ideas) will arise to > the person whose mind has no experience of calm. Such views as > these, which are usually based on some peculiar experience of > those "teachers" who originate them, are apt to mislead many, since > the craving for quick results coupled with the dislike of the > necessary hard work, are easily stirred up. … S: I agree with this comment about 'craving for quick results' anyway. … > Sarah: Because there is no Andrew or Sarah in truth to do anything. > > James: Then who is writing this post to me signing her > name "Sarah"? Are you an alien who has taken over Sarah's body? > Give it back!! ;-)) … ;-)) Just namas and rupas. Certainly an alien way of seeing the truth, I agree. …. I believe that anatta means that there is no > abiding essence, no permanent self, no separate existence; it > doesn't mean that `Sarah' or `Andrew' doesn't exist. You arise, > persist, and pass away…you exist as a process, ever changing. …. S: And how is this process of 'Sarah' or 'Andrew' or 'James' experienced? Is it seen? Is it heard? Is it smelt? Is it tasted? Is it touched? Or……is it thought about? Metta, Sarah ======= 41259 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, I'm not sure I can add anything. As I mentioned before, I recommend you take a look at the posts under 'Fruition' (phala samapatti) in U.P. Nina has also added more. --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Let's take Abhidhamma classification into 5 basic jhanas. The > only difference between 5th rupa jhana and 4 arupa jhanas is the > object; the mental factors accompanying the jhanas cittas are the > same. Similiarly, 1st rupa jhana and 1st-jhana based 8 lokuttara > magga/phalas (in 121) have the same factors, just a different > object. So one can call them lokuttara jhanas, it's just a naming > convention to make things consistent (or prove sama samadhi). …. S: I'm not sure I'm with you here. The jhana cittas have the same factors and same objects in both cases, but of course the lokuttara cittas have different factors and different lokuttara phala. As Htoo explained, the jhana cittas have completely fallen away when the lokuttara cittas arise. Regardless of whether jhana has ever been experienced before or whether it is 'in the vicinity', it is still samma-samadhi at all moments of path development and lokuttara samma-samadhi accompanying lokuttara cittas. …. > The way I see your argument is, magga can be achieved without > mundane jhanas but phala-samapatti cannot be. Is that right? …. S: Yes. Also, the two or three phala cittas which always follow magga cittas are not dependent on prior jhana experience. As Nina indicated, we need to differentiate these phala cittas from phala samapatti (fruition abiding). …. > Otherwise we're just arguing about the name and definition of > jhana. When I write jhana, I mean mundane jhanas. Obviously if you > also include lokuttara cittas in the word jhana then there would be > no argument. …. S: I don't include 'lokuttara citta in the word jhana'. It doesn't make sense to me. …. > >S: But for these sukkha vipassakas, there can be no further phala > > samapatti or nirodha samapatti (even for anagamis or arahants). > Kel: I think you're combining phala-samapatti and niroda-sampatti > unncessarily. Here's a reference by mahai sayadaw about phala- > samapatti. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch7.18 > > His method is basically to meditate on the three lakkhanas > until "power of concentration has reached perfection". This is > achieving absorption concentration by using lakkhanas as objects as > oppose to nimittas. The way and the skill acquired by meditator is > the same because it mostly concerns samadhi. …. S: The way you describe it here is not the development of satipatthana as I understand it. Kel, I haven't looked at the particular link as yet, but am very familiar with mahasi Sayadaw methodology. …. >So if one is already > skilled in mundane jhanas before becoming an ariya, it'll be easy to > reach phala-samapatti. For dry-insight workers, they can use the > lakkhanas to practice and maintain phala-samapatti without mundane > jhanas and nimittas. …. S: I don't see any of this substantiated in the texts. For example, see these posts from the series Nina translated: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18141 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18204 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18317 … >Without mastery of all 5 rupa and 4 arupa > jhanas, there's no possibilty of obtaining nirodha samapatti for > anagamis and arahats. There's no arguing about that as it's crystal > clear in the texts. … S: Yes - good! We can drop this. … >To me, phala and nirodha samapattis are MILES > apart in terms of the skill required to obtain and you can't combine > them. Again phala-samapatti just requires an ability to acquire the > object (nibbana) and to stay absorbed in the object. This is very > much the same sequence as mundane jhana acquiring the object > (nimitta) and to stay absorbed. Nirodha has no object because > there's no citta hence no sanna, beating 4th arupa jhana's "sorta- > sanna". …. S: A question: Why are you so interested in this particular topic, if you don't mind me asking? What is the purpose of concentrating on any object? Please elaborate a little more on the importance of such a practice as you see/find it. Surely, concentrating on the three lakkhanas has little (if anything) to do with the development of understanding which will really lead to the direct and full realisation of the lakkhanas? Pls help explain your view on this to me as I feel I'm missing your point. Metta, Sarah ======= 41260 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:56am Subject: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Htoo, Glad for your further comments on any of these points: #DT40542 "The middle 5 javana cittas are so strong that the kamma that arises because of these middle cittas is able to give rise to effect or result for the whole samsara……from the third life…. So strong are those 5 middle javana cittas that they do carry the potentials or kamma along with each and every rising citta." S: I know what you mean and we've discussed the different javana cittas. The potential or accumulation is also carried by each citta as you say, but, as we've discussused, not all javana cittas are capable of bringing results - only when kamma patha factors are present as I understand. So I don't know that we can make such a blanket statement. ….. #mass destruction 40597 "Maha-karuna was so great that even after pasing away (mahaparinibbana) it was still working…" You then give the account of when MahaKassapa comes to Kusinara and how the feet of the Buddha came out to touch him on the forehead. … S: There's lots more detail in the comy to the Mahaparinibbana sutta and the power of MahaKassapa's resolve. (I know there is lots of other detail in later texts),.but I don't think we can talk about the Buddha's karuna here!! [In Kusinara on our recent trip, I found it so special to bow low at the feet of the statue and sit there for a while….it was hard for me to move away]. Also, all the detail about the distribuition of relics into eight is given in the commentary in a lot of detail. I'm not sure the comments you gave about the distribution are correct(??) You wrote about the river and the enemies on each side and the stopping of the war. I don't see this at a glance in the sutta or commentary. ….. Concepts & Qus discussion with TG & Howard S:I understood what TG and Howard were saying in this case about Culapanthaka - even the simplest instructions involve concepts. Also he's listened to Abhidhamma in previous lives and to his brother in this life, even if he had kept missing the point or not been able to retain any detail. As they said, we use concepts for communication. Of course, he directly understood the paramattha dhammas involved. No dispute about that! You mentioned that 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalent. I couldn't follow you. Anyway, it was a good discussion you all had. Unlike TG, I think it's essential to understand the difference between concepts and realities, but he knows that;-). I have some other comments, but maybe later. In the DT series, I think you need to keep giving lots of repetition and explanation. It helps a lot when you explain the Pali terms as well. We always have beginners or those who are new to the list as well. Metta, Sarah ===== 41261 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:06am Subject: Re:Joop's article on Western Buddhism Dear Nina and all The question of Nina "But do bring your points in English here, suitable for discussion" is not so easy. My (draft) article for a dutch journal is about 'Western buddhism'; or - the name I prefer "Global buddhism'. Perhaps 'dutch buddhism' is better because more modest, but we are talking about ideas, not about something that (already) exists. The readers of that journal are buddhists of different traditions (much Tibetan and Zen) or no traditions at all and people who are hardly interested in the Teachings of the Buddha like Zen-meditators. But I try to translate in a double way, in English and in short statements and question that maybe DSG-participants. The question was: is there coming a Western buddhism like there did, after centuries, grow a Chinese buddhism; both can be seen as a mixture of Chinese culture/philosopy (for exemple Daoism) and Indian buddhism. Joseph Goldstein (an author of may Insight meditation books) is an optimist in his book 'One Dharma': Goldstein believes that, as the categories of Asian Buddhism collapse, the practice of westerners in various Buddhist traditions is converging. The West, he suggests, has come into contact with the Buddhist tradition as a whole, not just one strand of it, so westerners who encounter Buddhism face a dilemma. On the one hand it is artificial to engage with a single Asian tradition to the exclusion of the others. On the other hand an eclectic sampling of numerous traditions risks superficiality and misunderstanding. Goldstein suggests that the resolution of this dilemma has been achieved in the actual experience of western practitioners such as himself, who have individually worked through the encounter between `the diversity and depth of the ancient Buddhist culture … [and] the openness and pragmatism of our contemporary western culture." Donald Lopez (in 'Modern Budhism') is in my eyes more a realist: "It is perhaps best to consider modern Buddhism not as a universal religion beyond sectarian borders, but as itself a Buddhist sect. There is Thai Buddhism, there is Tibetan Buddhism, there is Korean Buddhism, and there is Modern Buddhism. . . Like other Buddhist sects, modern Buddhism has its own lineage, its own doctrines, its own practices. . . And like other Buddhist sects, modern Buddhism has its own canon of sacred scriptures" In making a prediction there is always the possibility of wishful thinking; for that reason it's good first to formulate what one hopes and wishes before making a prediction. My "global buddhism" must still be buddhism, psychotherapy using some meditation techniques or NewAge using some (half understood) buddhist concepts should be critisised (one of the words I'm using too is 'critical buddhism', dutch buddhists are too nice, never criticise each other or bad developments in society). It can be mixed with other elements of (western/global) culture but not diluted. Anatta, anicca and dukkha must stay central terms, maybe in other words; and buddhism is not only meditation or only ritual but also ethics and dharma-study; (most Zen buddhists and many Tibetan don't like talking about ethics so that's a difficult point too). What I and some buddhist friends of me wish is that there exist 'secularised and multi-traditional sanghas' in our country where buddhist of different tradition can practice, study texts and discuss. And where rituals are developed which are a mixture of Asian ones and the metaphores belonging to our western culture. I know I don't use the term 'sangha' in the right orthodox Theravada way, as 'a group of monks'. I'm thinking of (a) a building, a little bit a temple and (b) a community, a group of people One of the practical activities that buddhist of different denominations can do together is that of 'engaged buddhism': done as a individual in in groups/organisation. But that is another discussion, that's should not especially be an attitude of global buddhism. Any comments? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Joop, > Your article is well written, not too long. > Some points are good for discussion here, like: engaged Buddhism, this is a > point Chris brought up in India. So, it is international. I think it is a > reaction to the idea that Buddhists should not be engaged, but the Dhamma is > also the application of metta and karuna. Kh sujin had doubts about it that > another kind of Buddhism, engaged Buddhism is necessary. You can hear this > on the sound tract Jon gave. > I think that if we understand that the essence of the Dhamma is developing > wisdom to know yourself, to know seeing, hearing, attachment etc. there is > no need for Western Buddhism. Everyone can apply the Dhamma in his own > situation and culture. No need to throw away one's culture. Seeing is > universal, hearing is universal. The texts deal with these realities. > But do bring your points in English here, suitable for discussion. > Nina. 41262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hello Phil. B.B. footnote to co to Perfections, khanti (The All-Embracing Net of Views, p. 258);: dhammanijjhaanakkhanti: <...used to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to the understanding...It is a suspension of disbelief born of trust...> It is a kind of patience. You have confidence in the Dhamma, but, say, you do not understand all that is said about rupas, such as life faculty or nutrition. Still, you do not reject what you do not quite understand. on p. 283, anulomiyam khantiyam .thito: acquiescence in conformity. This is in the development of insight. op 24-01-2005 01:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > It is > about "protecting the truth" - that we can take something with faith > while at the same time *not* saying that it is without doubt true. 41263 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, I just wish you to know that I hadn't read your recent post to Nina (was behind on my reading from the weekend)on phala samapatti in which you said you'd read her series etc, were not convinced of the logic and were planning to get back on it after speaking to your abhidhamma teacher. Pls ignore my further recommendations to read the series. Apologies. Metta, Sarah --- sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Kel, > > I'm not sure I can add anything. As I mentioned before, I recommend you > take a look at the posts under 'Fruition' (phala samapatti) in U.P. Nina > has also added more. 41264 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:03am Subject: Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah, To be honest, you often remind me of a used car salesman trying to convince me that a car of inferior quality is just as good as a high priced vehicle. In this analogy, the car of lesser quality is mindfulness without concentration practice (jhana or vipassana) and the high priced vehicle is mindfulness with concentration practice. Is your cheaper vehicle going to get a person to nibbana? Possibly. But it is guaranteed to be an unpleasant journey with several breakdowns (akusala mental states), poor gas mileage (influence of the five hindrances), and poor speed (random and infrequent insights). The one advantage that your cheaper vehicle has is that it is cheaper-- in other words, it is easier. It doesn't require any sacrifices, changes in lifestyle, or any of that painful sitting in meditation for hours and hours. Unfortunately, the Buddha's path isn't supposed to be easy, it is supposed to be effective. Sarah: Now assuming for the moment that you see what I (and some others) say to be represented by the second half of this statement, let me comment straight away that calm is present with every moment of wholesome consciousness. For example, at moments of giving, at moments of abstention from bad speech or killing, at moments of wise reflection on the Triple Gem or at moments of awareness (satipatthana), there is calm. James: Does the Abhidhamma list these particular types of wholesome actions (by name) and state that the calm they produce is equal to the calm of jhana and/or vipassana practice? I think I already know the answer: no. This is an assumption on your part. (Inflate the quality of your product: Sales technique). Sarah: If we wait for another time or occasion or have an idea of an `intensive practice' to develop satipatthana, it's bound to be motivated again by an idea of self or of certain practices being the way, rather than understanding the Dhamma. James: This is another huge assumption on your part. Everything is controlled by conditions, so please explain the conditions (as you see them) which will make such practice `bound to be' motivated by the belief in a soul or belief in rites and rituals, and that there will be a lack of understanding the dhamma. (Demonize competing product: Sales technique). Sarah: Now you will rightly say, we're not talking about being a one- session eater, an ope-air dweller, a continual sitter and so on. But anytime we have the idea that being in `accord with Dhamma' has anything to do with particular actions we follow or even association or identification with particular states, including jhanas, as the sutta continues to elaborate on, then there is no development of detachment from conditioned realities and no living according to the Dhamma. James: Jhana practice is not equalivent to the types of `rites and rituals' described in this sutta. Jhana practice can lead to purification of the mind, as taught by the Buddha, while these other ascetic practices will not. You are comparing apples and oranges and saying they are the same (Bait and switch: Sales technique). Metta, James Ps. BTW, I support the development of jhana because the Buddha taught it, not because it specifically reflects my own practice. I have spent years meditating but I only did vipassana practice (believing secondary sources that jhana practice is dangerous without reading the suttas for myself…very stupid on my part!) With my new practice, I doubt that I have even come close to achieving the first jhana…so I don't claim to be a `jhana master' by any means. 41265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta about "protecting" the truth? Hello Philip, very well expressed. I should have added something to my post. So long as we have not reached stages of insight we do not clearly know nama and rupa, we know them by name. Some dhammas we find easier to accept intellectually than others. Such as lobha, dosa, we all have. Seeing or hardness, they are real, though they are not known yet through insight. We can experience them but we do not penetrate their true nature yet. For one person bhavanga may be harder to accept, for another rupakkhandha, for another D.O. or the stages of enlightenment, and this is very understandable. We are different, with different accumulations. The idea of patient acquiescence, dhammanijjhaanakkhanti, is beneficial. It reminds us that we cannot understand all at once. It helps us to correct our attitude, and we all need this kind of patience. Listening again and again helps us. I rendered to Azita what I heard on tape about mind-door and bhavanga from Kh Sujin, but perhaps your computer was off? Can you find it in the recent messages? Or if you have more Q on bhavanga, Kh Sujin explains a lot on the MP3 I am hearing. You are welcome. Nina. op 24-01-2005 04:57 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I may have misinterpreted this, but it seems important and > encouraging for me in my Abhidhamma studies. There is so much there > that must be swallowed whole, if you will. If I try to confirm > empirically whether there are bhavanga cittas or not, for example, I > won't get anywhere. It helps to believe in very subtle/sublime > dhammas whole-heartedly, even before we can possibly know them to be > true. It seems to me that this is the only way for beginners to > approach Abhidhamma - otherwise we get stuck in an excess of rational > investigation. 41266 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, Glad for your further comments on any of these points: #DT40542 "The middle 5 javana cittas are so strong that the kamma that arises because of these middle cittas is able to give rise to effect or result for the whole samsara……from the third life…. So strong are those 5 middle javana cittas that they do carry the potentials or kamma along with each and every rising citta." S: I know what you mean and we've discussed the different javana cittas. The potential or accumulation is also carried by each citta as you say, but, as we've discussused, not all javana cittas are capable of bringing results - only when kamma patha factors are present as I understand. So I don't know that we can make such a blanket statement. ….. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, I think we have discussed about this before. I do not think that is the blanket. You quote kamma patha factor. What I believe is that all javana cittas if they are not kiriya cittas they do have kamma production. Even in ordinary thinking if it is lobha or dosa or moha related akusala thinking citta, that thinking does have kamma production. There are many ordinary vipaka cittas arise in daily life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: #mass destruction 40597 "Maha-karuna was so great that even after pasing away (mahaparinibbana) it was still working…" You then give the account of when MahaKassapa comes to Kusinara and how the feet of the Buddha came out to touch him on the forehead. … S: There's lots more detail in the comy to the Mahaparinibbana sutta and the power of MahaKassapa's resolve. (I know there is lots of other detail in later texts),.but I don't think we can talk about the Buddha's karuna here!! [In Kusinara on our recent trip, I found it so special to bow low at the feet of the statue and sit there for a while….it was hard for me to move away]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just included karuna as a side-track. It worths another thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Also, all the detail about the distribuition of relics into eight is given in the commentary in a lot of detail. I'm not sure the comments you gave about the distribution are correct(??) You wrote about the river and the enemies on each side and the stopping of the war. I don't see this at a glance in the sutta or commentary. ….. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding relics 'Mahaparinibbana suttas' and commentaries will tell you more. I just forgot the name of the river. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Concepts & Qus discussion with TG & Howard S:I understood what TG and Howard were saying in this case about Culapanthaka - even the simplest instructions involve concepts. Also he's listened to Abhidhamma in previous lives and to his brother in this life, even if he had kept missing the point or not been able to retain any detail. As they said, we use concepts for communication. Of course, he directly understood the paramattha dhammas involved. No dispute about that! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. TG , Howard and others in that thread are all good. It would be a matter of wording. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sara continued: You mentioned that `idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalent. I couldn't follow you. Anyway, it was a good discussion you all had. Unlike TG, I think it's essential to understand the difference between concepts and realities, but he knows that;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said that because 'idea' is more than naming. 1 and 1 makes 2. 1 is naming. 'and' is naming. 'makes' is another name. 2 is also a name. So the whole sentence is full of names. There is no '1' as paramattha dhamma. And nor other words 'and' 'makes' and '2'. But that sentence carries idea. That idea penetrates what it should. If you do not have panna or wisdom then you will not know that '1 and 1 makes 2'. That idea '1 and 1 makes 2' is part of panna. That is why I said 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: I have some other comments, but maybe later. In the DT series, I think you need to keep giving lots of repetition and explanation. It helps a lot when you explain the Pali terms as well. We always have beginners or those who are new to the list as well. Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will stick to. Thanks Sarah for your kind comments and all the support including computer assistence that you organized Kom to helped me. With respect, Htoo Naing 41267 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread (242) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 'bhumi catukka' or in 'four kinds of bhumi or realm' there are 31 realms. These 4 kinds are 1. apaya bhumis or woeful planes of existence 2. kama sugati bhumis or sensuous planes of existence 3. rupa bhumis or rupa brahma realms or fine-material realms 4. arupa bhumis or arupa brahma realms or immaterial realms Apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existences are 1. niriya bhumi or hell realms 2. tiracchanna bhumi or animal realms 3. peta bhumi or hungry ghost realms 4. asurakaya bhumi or demon realms As soon as reaches these bhumis the first citta in these bhumis or realm is patisandhi citta and this citta is only one kind. It is 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta'. Upekkha means 'indifferent feeling' here. Saha means 'along with' 'at the same time' 'in parallel with' and gata means 'to go'. Ahetuka means 'no hetu or no root dhamma'. This citta is vipaka citta. Niraya means 'far away from good thing, wholesome things, happy thing'. tiracchanna is made up of 'ti' 'channa or chandha'. So animals are those who have 3 wishes. They are 1.to sleep or rest, 2.to eat, 3.to have sex. Tiracchanna the word basically derived from these words even though there are some exceptions regarding chandhas or wishes. There are many hell stations like there are many countries all over the world. There are many animal worlds. There are many peta worlds. And there are many asurakaya worlds. Dibbacakku will be able to see all these sattas in their respective realms. All these 4 apaya bhumis or all these 4 woeful planes of existence have the same kind of linking consciousness or patisandhi citta. It is 'upekkha santirana citta of akusala vipaka'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41268 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:13pm Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 b Pilgrimage India 3 b Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a time. When there is understanding of visible object as a dhamma experienced through the eyesense, there can be correct thinking of it. At such a moment we do not pay attention to the image of a whole or the details. When we are dreaming it seems that we see people and things, but in a dream our eyes are closed and we do not see, there is no visible object impinging on the eyesense. We merely remember what was seen before. Visible object has completely gone and what is left is only an image or concept we think of. Also when we are awake we often live as it were in a dream. Time and again it seems that we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, we are usually lost in thinking about people and events. But Dhamma is our island when we can begin to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa. As the Buddha said in the ³Mahå-Parinibbåna sutta² : be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge...² The Buddha taught us the Dhamma so that we can develop our own understanding. It is essential to know the difference between the moments when we are lost in thinking of concepts and when there is awareness of just one characteristic appearing through one doorway at a time. When awareness arises the characteristic of the reality that appears at the present moment is the object of awareness, and in this way one knows the difference between a moment of awareness and a moment without awareness. **** Nina. 41269 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Ken H: > KH : On the other hand, neither self-deprecation nor conceit is > kusala, and they cannot lead to enlightenment. > > KH: So, when you said "Conceit . . . is a great danger. At the same time > you need confidence and strength to walk the path," I don't think > you meant a little bit of conceit could be a good thing. Did you? No, it's not a good thing. But even anagamis still have it, that's how powerful it is. So sotapannas still have it in bunches and so even worse for normal people. The danger of confidence and strength is it can easily lead to conceit. But one can realize the danger and still have faith in the path without going overboard. I just don't think "we don't know anything" is a good stance. > KH: 'observation > of conventional reality' really is a part of the way. I know in the > Tipitaka, for example, a housewife attained enlightenment when she > realised she had burnt the curry, but I wonder if the Buddha > recommended 'mindfulness of curry.' I don't think so. Many other > teachers would recommend mindfulness of curry, but the Buddha's > teaching was always profound. It was always about absolute Kel: No but understanding the convential truth is what leads to higher understanding of the absolute truth. As an example, one of my teachers keep telling us to observe the mind. He said once it's really pure, all the associated intense vedana will fall away. I thought my mind looks pure, and repeated observation wasn't doing anything to vedana. Then one day I was sweeping the floor of dhamma hall and it looked clean. But after a few strokes, there was a pile of dirt. The more I keep sweeping the dirt keeps accumulating and I understood what the teacher meant then. It just looks clean to my untrained eye but repeated observing is same as repeated sweeping and hopefully slowly cleaning the dirt in the mind. I'm just saying for me that's how I understood the teaching with a convential example. > > Kel: There is a continuous stream of consciousness. There's > just no fixed entity and a river analog works well. You can work to > change the course of a river, ever so slightly. It can't flow > backwards so can only alter the future course. > ------------------------- > > I'm not so sure about the river analogy. The present moment can be > properly understood as being part of a continuous stream of moments - > there have been moments in the past and there will be moments in the > future - but no actual stream of moments exists. > > You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question' but we Kel: You can give a river a name and it exists. There's a definite path it takes. But ask if it's the SAME river then the answer is no as its always in a flux. If a snapshot can be taken in time and space of the river and ask if it exists then it most certainly does. > Kel: Yea that's what Buddha taught. Javana cittas are what turn > the tide or break the cycle. Even with akusala vipaka (resultant) > cittas, cetana/chanda can cause kusala javana citta to arise > instead. > -------------- > I know cetana is a universal cetasika and so, without it, there can > be no consciousness at all. But I'm not at all sure of what you are > saying here. Kel: I'm saying the difference between kusala and akusala vithis are in the javana cittas and the cause of it is volition. > If there are the conditions (including the accumulated tendency) for > kusala citta to arise in the given circumstances, then it will > arise. But there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can > be willed to arise. Kel: There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be predestined. > ---------------------------------- > Kel: > It's setting up conditions for a positive future without > attachment to such a future. That is anatta doctrine. > -------------------------------- > Well maybe it is in effect, but the teaching is to know the present > reality. It is not to have concern for the future. Kel: Because knowing the present moment leads to no attachment of a particular future. Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything? > We need a thorough understanding of Abhidhamma before we can > understand suttas. Kel: Don't think so. Otherwise Buddha would've taught the technical details to disciples instead of suttas. > I understand the Buddha's teaching always applies to the present > moment. If the present moment is a moment of extreme grief, then > that can be the object of satipatthana. There is no putting it off > until a more convenient time. Putting off will never condition > satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. Kel: The point is when akusala is at full power, it's like trying to stop a moving train. You'll just crushed instead. You need to stop it in the beginning when the momentum is low or before it even starts. A proper practice will prevent it from gaining full power. Once it's there, only time will dissipate it. - kel 41270 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Sarah, No problem, I know you have to read things from beginning. I think you asked why I keep posting about the topic, only because replies were directed to me. I'm a technical person and so I will respond to what I feel are opinion pieces stated as facts. But I guess the topic has ran it's course for me so I'll just leave it at that. - Kel 41271 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] monk's life. Hi RobertK > Dear Kel, > So have all of Mr. Goenka's teachers have naturally given up sensual > desire? If they have why do they need to take a vow, or are you > assuming they do? > I haven't read of all serious laypeople doing that in the Buddha's > time, but I only know a few texts. Kel: They take a vow but I don't know the details. Let's be clear though, it's just sexual relations not sensual desire or pleasures as a whole. To me it's like taking percepts as we do in Burma, it's only as deep as the person wants make it to be. As for his assistant teachers, they pretty much devote their lives to it. When they're not conducting courses, they'll doing their own courses. So I'm assuming they must be committed enough to do it. Of course with any big organizations, you hear about a few that goes on power trips or what not. Everything I say would be assumptions unless I can read minds. In the city of Kuru during Buddha's time, all the citizens practice satipatthana supposedly. For uposatha days, a lot of Burmese take the 8 percepts and that includes sensual pleasures. It depends if they're following it for mental actions or not too I would think. Most I'm sure barely do it for physical or verbal if even. The percepts are mostly designed to improve one's practice anyway. - kel 41272 From: Philip Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 88 - Volition/cetanaa (r) Hi all I've fallen behind in the Cetasikas corner. I'd like to try these questions. > i There is cetan?Ealso when we are sound asleep. What is its > function at such a moment? Co-ordinating the other cetasikas to help them to perform their functions. Cetana has a kind of double funciton sometimes co- ordinating, sometimes being the volition that is kamma. > ii When we observe sú‰a what is the function of cetan?E That would be wholesome (kusala) kamma, I guess. > > iii Which cetasika is akusala kamma or kusala kamma? Cetana (volition.) Is that a trick question? > iv How can a deed performed in the past produce a result later > on? Because they are accumulated with each citta. This is the point that I still have trouble understanding, no matter how often Nina explains it to me. I still see cittas completely falling away, so don't know how anything can be accumulated. But that's OK. Conditions and accumulations make it easier for us to understand some points and less easy to understand others. I will take this on faith. It's not necessary to understand everything rationally. If we insist on doing so, we won't get anywhere. > v What kind of result can be produced by akusala kamma > patha (unwholesome course of action) which is completed? > vi What are the other forms of vipåka produced by kamma, > apart from rebirth-consciousness? These two questions look the same to me. Vipaka can be in the form of rebirth-consciousness or it can come through many moments of seeing, hearing and the other six door sense objects in daily life, though our lifetime. The "completed" above means that many of the necessary conditions have been fulfilled to make it kamma patha. Otherwise wholeseome and unwholesome deeds of mind, speech and action are accumlated and lead to accumulated tendencies (anusayas) but not vipaka because they are not "completed" by the fulfillment of conditions that will make them kamma patha (?) > vii What is the effect of the accumulation of tendencies to good > and evil? The tendencies become deeper and thicker and more difficult to eradicate? And they can reappear at unpredictable times when the conditions are right. For example, we can feel quite proud and confident about having made progress on the surface, but the tendencies are there and we will get many rude reminders in life that there is deep, deep clinging and they are very difficult to eradicate. There is the simile of the cloth. You can wash it and get the visible stains out, but the smell of dung clings subtly. > > viii When we laugh is there akusala citta? I would guess there usually is. There is usually lobha involved. But there can be the arising of wholesome laughter as well. > ix When we are daydreaming can there be akusala citta? How could there be anything but? Daydream is a form of longing for things to be different than they are. That is lobha. I wouldn't call reflection on Dhamma, on the Buddha "daydreaming." But I think such reflections, if they arise in a natural way, are the only form of applied thinking that don't involve some form, even very subtle, of lobha. > x What are the conditions for kusala citta to arise more often? Hearing the Dhamma, discussion with good friends. Appreciation of kusala citta when it arises, if it arises, in daily life. We fail to appreciate the importance rare moments of wholesomeness and cling to more dramatic results, but the moments of kusala cittas (often in the form of abstaining from unwholesome thoughts, speech, deeds) condition the arising of more, sooner or later, if we are patient. Please comment or provide correction, all. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 41273 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Howard, Thanks for your reply: ----------------------- > Howard: How can there be eating when there is no being who can eat? How could there have been the Dhamma taught when there was no Buddha to teach it, no beings to have been taught, and no thing that is the Dhamma? > ------------------------- I agree that these are the right questions, and I have offered some answers many times, but how do your answers differ from mine? -------------------------- H: > Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. ------------------ I agree with that. However, you are talking about levels of discourse: you still haven't answered your questions. ------------------------------- H: > Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut- abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the reality, and they are not confused. ------------------------------ Fair enough! But we are coming to the iffy bit now: ----------------- H: > Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. ------------------ This is where I can help you! You think the Buddha taught a conventional Dhamma practice. By way of example, you might say that riding a bike can be learnt by getting on, falling off, getting on, falling off, until bike riding skills have been developed. But that analogy does not fit with 'conventional Dhamma practice.' Bike riding cannot be learnt by practising calligraphy (for example). And that is what you are, in effect, suggesting when you say that formal meditation develops real meditation (bhavana). Formal meditation is to bhavana as calligraphy is to bike riding, or as chalk is to cheese. Ruling out formal meditation, the question remains: Is there a practice of some sort that leads to satipatthana? The nearest thing would be 'kusala consciousness in which the Dhamma is heard, explained and considered.' But that, too, has to be correctly understood! ---------------------- H: > Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. ---------------------- I'd agree with that except for one thing: The people you are referring to know that 'mulling over their intellectual understanding' can be wrongly understood. Certainly, it is what the Buddha taught (unlike formal meditation, which he did not teach) but there is no self who can do it. If we have wrong understanding (belief in control over dhammas), as we practise *formal* mulling- over, then we are going backwards. --------------------------- H: > In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is acting". ---------------------------- No, those people pay *great* attention to, "there is acting." If there is acting but no actor then there must be some profound meaning to the word "acting" that only a Buddha can teach. Perhaps we need to mull over our understanding of the cetasika, cetana. It is the conditioned nama that performs the function of willing (including willing to act), and it bears the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. In the rest of your post you discuss the nature of cetana. I think you give it too much credit (with regard to possible Path functions), but that is no great problem. Discussing and learning about paramattha dhammas is what we are here for (I think). Ken H 41274 From: Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 3 b Nina: "Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a time." Hi Nina, I agree this is the way experience seems, so what is experience? According to the texts reality actually works quite differently. Many cetasikas arise at the same time and perform their functions [I wonder if we could say instead 'express themselves'.] At any rate we never experience most of these cetasikas. This suggests to me that reality is not an object of panna because panna can have only one object at a time, but in reality many dhammas arise at a time. However, that is a side issue. I'm mostly interested in what is experience. If experience is consciousness how do we experience the cetasikas? If experience is consciousness and an object do we experience both at the same time? Larry 41275 From: Hugo Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Back to the list, sharing experiences. I took some time off from the list and "took with me" some topics that popped up during my participation in this and other mailing lists. Some new questions arose and even some old questions came up again looking for a revisit. I share with you some of the interesting things I found after having visited 3 Buddhist temples (besides the one I normally visit), spoken with 3 monks (besides my teacher), read 1.5 books and many web-published articles/books, meditate, reflect and live my everyday household life. I will create different threads as to keep topics "contained" and make it easier to follow up and discuss. Greetings, -- Hugo 41276 From: Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/24/05 6:58:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your reply: > > ----------------------- > >Howard: How can there be eating when there is no being who can > eat? How could there have been the Dhamma taught when there was no > Buddha to teach it, no beings to have been taught, and no thing that > is the Dhamma? > > ------------------------- > > I agree that these are the right questions, and I have offered some > answers many times, but how do your answers differ from mine? ----------------------------------------- Howard: My answer follows in the remainder of my post, in discussing two truths, the conventional and the ultimate, with the ultimate truth underlying the conventional truth. ---------------------------------------- > > -------------------------- > H: >Ken, there are (at least) two levels of discourse. The level of > discourse involving beings who practice, who eat, who hear Dhamma, > and a Buddha who teaches Dhamma is the conventional level. It is the > usual mode of speech. Almost all of the Sutta Pitaka uses such > speech, and much of the Abhidhamma, and much of the commentaries. > ------------------ > > I agree with that. However, you are talking about levels of > discourse: you still haven't answered your questions. > > ------------------------------- > H: >Most people misunderstand the significance of it's shortcut- > abbreviational nature and are unaware of the delusive nature of > the "things" referred to by it, being unaware of the reality > overlaid by such speech. Some few are able to directly "see" the > reality, and they are not confused. > ------------------------------ > > Fair enough! But we are coming to the iffy bit now: > > ----------------- > H: >Others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying > reality, and engage in the conventional practice taught by the > Buddha to develop more than a mere intellectual grasp. > ------------------ > > This is where I can help you! You think the Buddha taught a > conventional Dhamma practice. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I sure do. ---------------------------------- By way of example, you might say that > > riding a bike can be learnt by getting on, falling off, getting on, > falling off, until bike riding skills have been developed. But that > analogy does not fit with 'conventional Dhamma practice.' > > Bike riding cannot be learnt by practising calligraphy (for > example). And that is what you are, in effect, suggesting when you > say that formal meditation develops real meditation (bhavana). > Formal meditation is to bhavana as calligraphy is to bike riding, or > as chalk is to cheese. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. The Buddha taught and urged meditation. He taught mindfulness of breathing, the use of kasinas, metta meditation, and the mastery of the jhanas. ------------------------------------- > > Ruling out formal meditation, the question remains: Is there a > practice of some sort that leads to satipatthana? The nearest thing > would be 'kusala consciousness in which the Dhamma is heard, > explained and considered.' But that, too, has to be correctly > understood! -------------------------------------- Howard: Right here you are turning the Dhamma into a form of gnani yoga. You are rewriting the Dhamma. There is no way in the world that the Buddha taught merely to listen to his teachings and think about them. -------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > H: >Still others have an intellectual knowledge of the underlying > reality, and conclude from this that, quite conventionally, there > are no deliberate conventional actions to take, and thus they do > nothing except mull over their intellectual understanding. > ---------------------- > > I'd agree with that except for one thing: The people you are > referring to know that 'mulling over their intellectual > understanding' can be wrongly understood. Certainly, it is what the > Buddha taught (unlike formal meditation, which he did not teach) but > there is no self who can do it. If we have wrong understanding > (belief in control over dhammas), as we practise *formal* mulling- > over, then we are going backwards. > ------------------------------ Howard: I have no clue as to what formal mulling over is supposed to be. For that matter, I don't know what *formal* meditation is either. There is just meditation, IMO. ------------------------------ > > --------------------------- > H: >In such mulling over they are right then and there ignoring > their own dictum that there is nothing to do since there is no being > to do it! For some reason, statements by Buddhaghosa to the effect > that there is acting but no actor are ignored. Oh, there is pleasure > at the abstract, unexperienced final part that says "no actor", but > there is no attention paid to the first part that says "there is > acting". > ---------------------------- > > No, those people pay *great* attention to, "there is acting." If > there is acting but no actor then there must be some profound > meaning to the word "acting" that only a Buddha can teach. > ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't get the profundity other than there being no actor. Are you afraid that maybe there is? Do you find it hard to conceive of action without an actor? I do not. I don't think there is an actor, or thinker, or doer, or agent of any sort. ---------------------------------- > > Perhaps we need to mull over our understanding of the cetasika, > cetana. It is the conditioned nama that performs the function of > willing (including willing to act), and it bears the > characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. > ------------------------------------ Howard: It *is* willing, and it is an event that occurs - a phenomenon. And it is indeed impermanent, unsatisfying and unworthy of being clung to, and impersonal. So? ------------------------------------- > > In the rest of your post you discuss the nature of cetana. I think > you give it too much credit (with regard to possible Path > functions), but that is no great problem. Discussing and learning > about paramattha dhammas is what we are here for (I think). ----------------------------------------- Howard: I think we are here to learn the tilakkhana in all dhammas, and to learn to let go. ----------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41277 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, You wrote: -------------------- > Ken, I agree with Howard. The disagreement you have possibly stems from the diametrically different viewpoint - paramattha desana (explanation true in the highest sense) versus vohara desana (conventional exposition). > -------------------- No, Tep, there is no disagreement over means of expression. But the Dhamma expresses profound truths. I am saying we must not reject profound truth, which we don't really understand, in favour of conventional truth, which we do understand. For example, when the Buddha said "Meditate," he meant "Directly experience a present paramattha dhamma with right understanding." That is a profoundly difficult thing to do. On the other hand, sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, dukkha and anatta is easy. There are many meditation teachers who want us to throw out the difficult version and replace it with the easy one. ----------------------------- T: > Do the people 'who do not believe in the efficacy of "striving" 'believe in right effort (samma-vayama)? ------------------------------ Yes. In many suttas, the Buddha's language is indistinguishable from the language of other teachers: If we are not careful - if we forget our Abhidhamma - we can be convinced he was promoting conventional wisdom. In one instance (as you will know), he was speaking to a jhana meditator whose daily routine included walking back and forth. Many people would swear that the Buddha was saying right effort was a simple matter of not walking too much (making the feet bleed) and not walking too little (taking it easy). But Abhidhamma scholars know that the world is nothing more than a single citta, a small number of cetasikas and a smaller number of rupas. It could only have been one of those cetasikas (samma-vayama) that the Buddha was describing and promoting. Samma-vayama does not arise in a citta that contains eternity view ("walks too much"), nor in one that contains annihilation view ("walks too little" (or is it the other way around?)): it arises in a citta with right view - samma-ditthi- cetasika of the Middle Way. Ken H 41278 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:53pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Sukinder - Welcome back to the forum. Yes, you are "quite behind' regarding the discussion here that has branched out into several directions already. However, I'll try to respond to your questions as well as I can. Sukin: But maybe it is us who are on say, the left, and so even someone in the middle would appear right, no? But I think this is because our understanding of the Buddha's Teachings is still quite superficial and the way we consider it is mostly philosophical and often speculative. This is so even when we have come to the conclusion that `direct experience' is what matters as against `intellectual appreciation'. Tep: Since your understanding of the Teachings is still quite superficial, then how can you understand what the "direct experience" is? Don't you think you must first start with some "intellectual appreciation" of the Dhamma through reading the texts? First thing first, right? Sukin: The common Thai usage of the word `patipatti' for instance, means `sitting practice', but this is not the meaning of the Pali. In Pali it is equivalent to a moment of `satipatthana', and in this there is no `person' who is doing any sitting practice. Tep: I don't think the Thai monks and lay people are misled like you said, Sukin. Most Thais understand that 'patipatti' means the practice of the Buddha's Teachings, and it consists of dana, sila, and bhavana. In bhavana they do both samatha and vipassana. Further, sitting and walking meditations are included in the bhavana. Sukin: The question of `how to practice' is I think misplaced. There are only conditioned realities, some of which point to the wrong direction and some to the right. Appreciating the value of those dhammas that are positive is itself, positive. And if indeed there is any appreciation of the anatta and other conditioned nature of these same dhammas, then other positive dhammas may arise, like samvega, patience and courage. Tep: Is the act of "appreciating the value" of the "conditioned realities" same as contemplation of the their three characteristics(ti-lakkhana) when you are alone? (it doesn't matter whether you are sitting or not) Or, is it just some kind of casual reflection on the Dhamma while going through your daily life activities? Sukin: There is certainly no call for `sitting' nor is there any `reason' to `deliberately look'. From the stand point of someone who believes in "doing" something, this will be perceived as thinking, "Let be, let it be" in a fatalistic way, but samvega and khanti are accompanied by viriya too, no? Tep: How strong is your viriya during a practice? Is it strong enough to be Right exertion (a Path factor) to develop insight knowledges? Just read the following sutta excerpt to get the idea. Note that it doesn't have to be "fatalistic"! "There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions. "Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines to the east, in the same way when a monk develops & pursues the four right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to Unbinding. -- SN XLIX.1 Sukin: The only real obstacle to satipatthana is miccha ditthi and one manifestation of this is the idea of `formal sitting' or that "Panna comes from "deliberate cultivation"". Panna does indeed require `development', in Thai `charoen', however this has nothing to do with what we understand by `intention' or `deliberateness'. Tep: Part of the above sutta quote is "monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent ...". All these words (desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, uphold and exert intention) points to "deliberate cultivation". Note that cultivation is the same as development (look it up in a dictionary yourself). The word deliberate implies something is done by choice, or intention, and that its consequences are clearly understood. Further, the four right exertions above show clearly that the monk has an intention, a purpose to develop and culminate his arisen skillful qualities (kusala dhammas) towards Nibbana (as the goal). I think you are talking about the one who is able to "know and see things the way they really are", not about the mind of a worldling who has not reahed that state. Before getting "there" you need "an act of will" with right exertions; once there, no need for intention. "For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are". [Anguttara Nikaya XI.2 Cetana Sutta] By the way, how would you, a worldling, develop Panna without intention? Intention and othe nama dhammas like exertions are like the raft that one uses to cross a river (attainment of lokuttara panna). But when the river is crossed, there is no need for the raft anymore. Sukin: We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather "panna" in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of `self', `other' and `activity', then even this is wrong. Tep: Sure, you have to have "panna" in the present moment in order to talk with friends and understand what they are talking to you, Sukin. But this is not the wisdom that penetrates the Noble Truths. So you are still unable to eradicate the personality views, regardless of what you think about your panna. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Tep, Howard and Ken O, > ... ... ... ... ... > Enough for now. Excuse me for the bluntness, today I am feeling O.K. > after six days of feeling quite unwell, implication; I read some of > the posts here with irritation. > :-) > > Metta, > Sukin. 41279 From: Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/24/05 10:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > On the other hand, > sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, > dukkha and anatta is easy. There are many meditation teachers who > want us to throw out the difficult version and replace it with the > easy one. > ====================== That's a straw man, Ken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41280 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Ken H. - Thank you for originating the discussion about the two different ways of practice: the conventional way (wrong?) and the Abhidhamma way (right?). This series of dicussion is worthwhile. KH : when the Buddha said "Meditate," he meant "Directly experience a present paramattha dhamma with right understanding." That is a profoundly difficult thing to do. On the other hand, sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, dukkha and anatta is easy. T: It is profoundly difficult because that end-product of "direct seeing and knowing" is not a castle built in the air, it requires several stages of development starting from solid Sila to nama-rupa-pariccheda nana and beyond. But there are many real stories of those virtuous monks who could achieve this insight knowledge from samatha-vipassana and contemplation of the ti-lakkhana of the five aggregates (panca khandha). The contemplation is, of course, not some idle thinking of the three characteristics. KH: In many suttas, the Buddha's language is indistinguishable from the language of other teachers: If we are not careful - if we forget our Abhidhamma - we can be convinced he was promoting conventional wisdom. T: I think Howard and I have stressed that conventional wisdom is necessarey while one is training toward sotapatti-magga-nana. I doubt it very much if anyone can start right away at seeing and knowing the Paramattha dhamma, i.e. bypassing the conventional way. It is just purely illogical to me. KH: But Abhidhamma scholars know that the world is nothing more than a single citta, a small number of cetasikas and a smaller number of rupas. It could only have been one of those cetasikas (samma- vayama) that the Buddha was describing and promoting. Samma- vayama does not arise in a citta that contains eternity view ("walks too much"), nor in one that contains annihilation view ("walks too little" (or is it the other way around?)): it arises in a citta with right view - samma- ditthi-cetasika of the Middle Way. T: In the following sutta, the Buddha described how the Path factors work together toward the insight knowledge penetration. The language is based on the conventional truth (vohara-sacca) and it is clear to a worldling like me. Why didn't he use the Abhidhamma language? "The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? "Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view. "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. ... ... ... ... "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the Arahant with ten. From ... Majjhima Nikaya 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, The Great Forty Kindest regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > You wrote: > -------------------- > > Ken, I agree with Howard. The disagreement you have possibly > stems from the diametrically different viewpoint - paramattha desana > (explanation true in the highest sense) versus vohara desana > (conventional exposition). > > -------------------- > (snipped) > > Ken H 41281 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:17pm Subject: The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? A curious & puzzled friend asked: What are the 10 questions where Buddha kept silence ? Buddha did not answer these 10 questions: Why not ? Because they are indeterminable & thus rightly unanswerable. Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. Because they thus obstruct & destroy the only Way to Final Peace. What are the 10 Indeterminable Questions ? 1: Is the Universe Finite ? 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? 5: Is the Vitality of Life the same as the Body ? 6: Is the Vitality of Life different from the Body ? 7: Do a Well-Gone-One exist after Death ? 8: Do a Well-Gone-One not exist after Death ? 9: Do a Well-Gone-One both exist & not exist after Death ? 10: Do a Well-Gone-One neither exist nor not exist after Death ? Questions like these are based on false a priori assumption & are absurd & thus wrongly formulated. Bertran Russel gave another good example of these logic traps: Is the French King bald ? Initially the question seems to point to absence of hair, yet closer analysis reveal that since there exist no French King now so how can he ever be bald or anything else for that matter ... ;-) Also there the Buddha would have kept silence... Hehehe : - ] Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka 41282 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:53pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner 107 - Concentration/ekaggataa (c) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** When we speak about an årammaùa, an object, we have to specify which kind of årammaùa. There is visible object which is known through the eye-door. There is sound which is known through the ear-door. Smell, taste and tactile object are known through their appropriate sense-doors. Through the mind-door all these objects can be known as well. Everything which is real and also concepts and ideas, which are not real in the absolute sense, can be known through the mind-door. Thus we see that the word 'object' in the Abhidhamma has a very precise meaning. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41283 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James, Somehow the gist of my message got lost in the storm, but thank you for your well-written analogy none the less. Let me take the liberty of spelling out that gist once more in simple terms . No need to 'buy' it, I assure you. 1.Before we fantasise about Porsches and Ferraris (ways of attaining nibbana), let's see if we need to learn to walk first in baby steps (learn about namas and rupas). 2.When we've got a little more idea about making these baby steps, even though we may well still be at the toddler stage (wobbly and occasional arising of sati only), we need to start learning about left and right (the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states) and how to cross the road at the zebra crossing, traffic lights or with the assistance of the 'lollipop lady'*(develop satipatthana, samatha and all kinds of kusala). 3.If we find ourselves dreaming about the various cars we may drive when we grow up, that's fine, as long as we know we're just dreaming and don't get into one of them and turn the ignition switch. That could be very dangerous.(strong wrong views about attainments lead to many problems). 4.Who knows? By the time we really look like having some kind of choice about purchasing a Porsche, a Ferrari or one of those inferior, uncomfortable used cars, we may even find out that the choice is purely imaginary and that conditions such as budget, availability, family demands rule (all conditioned dhammas, including jhana states, are sankhara and anatta - so no need to be concerned about making the right decision, James). Metta, Sarah p.s I also 'support the development of jhana'. We differ in how we understand the development of samatha which may or may not eventually lead to jhana, however. No, I'm not making difficult sacrifices or having 'painful sitting in meditation',but then I believe the development of any kind of kusala (with calm naturally) is light, free of torment and not about beating oneself up in anyway. The Middle Path. *just English terminology - the lollipop lady used to help us school children cross the road, holding a big round STOP sign to traffic . ======================================== 41284 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to the list, sharing experiences. Hi Hugo, Good to see you back, just as you indicated (end of Jan), I believe. Now you're someone who knows all about training toddlers to walk and cross roads (I loved your bicycle analogy before), so I look forward to all your threads (new or second-hand;-). You've obviously been considering a lot in your absence. Metta, Sarah p.s Happy New Year to you and your family! --- Hugo wrote: > > > I took some time off from the list and "took with me" some topics that > popped up during my participation in this and other mailing lists. > Some new questions arose and even some old questions came up again > looking for a revisit. 41285 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ straw men Hi Howard, --------------------------------------- KH: > > . . . how do your answers differ from mine? > > > Howard: > My answer follows in the remainder of my post, in discussing two truths, the conventional and the ultimate, with the ultimate truth underlying the conventional truth. > ---------------------------------------- Maybe I don't try hard enough to understand your point of view. You probably find that frustrating and you accuse me of putting up straw men. I know how you feel! :-) ------------------------------------- KH: > > Formal meditation is to bhavana as calligraphy is to bike riding, or as chalk is to cheese. > > Howard: > I disagree. The Buddha taught and urged meditation. He taught mindfulness of breathing, the use of kasinas, metta meditation, and the mastery of the jhanas. ------------------------------------- You say, " The Buddha taught and urged meditation," as if I have been denying he taught and urged bhavana (samatha and vipassana). Have you not been reading my posts, or was that a deliberate straw man? You say, "He taught mindfulness of breathing" as if I have been denying there are suttas on Anapanasati. I know they are there - we have discussed them a hundred times - but you and I have very different interpretations of those suttas. The same goes for kasinas? I know they get a mention in the Tipitaka, although, as with breathing meditation, there are no actual instructions. (The instructions are in the Commentaries.) And 'metta meditation' and 'the mastery of jhanas' - I have never denied them: I believe they are conditioned moments of consciousness. The thing I deny is the efficacy of mimicking them by reproducing their outward, conventional, appearance. These straw men can be annoying can't they? :-) -------------------------------------- Howard: > Right here you are turning the Dhamma into a form of gnani yoga. You are rewriting the Dhamma. There is no way in the world that the Buddha taught merely to listen to his teachings and think about them. -------------------------------------- A straw man if ever there was one! "The Buddha taught satipatthana and only satipatthana." I have been saying that with monotonous regularity and I have been ridiculed for doing so (most notably by the person calling himself "Nutcracker"). The Buddha taught satipatthana and only satipatthana: he did not teach listening and thinking. They are not the Middle Way. If there is listening, then listening can be known with right understanding (satipatthana) - as is always the case with the present moment. The same goes for "wise consideration" and "association with good friends." According to the Buddha, they are THE conditioning factors for satipatthana, and I think (not sure) that they can be directly known 'as conditions' (in a moment of satipatthana). But I repeat; he didn not teach listening and wise consideration: he taught satipatthana. ------------------------------ Howard: > I have no clue as to what formal mulling over is supposed to be. For that matter, I don't know what *formal* meditation is either. There is just meditation, IMO. ------------------------------ In that case, I'd like to explain "formal" again. It is the idea, as opposed to the genuine momentary reality, of bhavana (or of wise consideration). It is a mere concept, and, as such, it has no conditioning power in absolute reality. ---------------------------------- Howard: > I don't get the profundity other than there being no actor. Are you afraid that maybe there is? Do you find it hard to conceive of action without an actor? I do not. I don't think there is an actor, or thinker, or doer, or agent of any sort. ---------------------------------- Of course I find it hard! Do you think right understanding is simple? Normally that would be a ridiculous question, but I ask it with some seriousness after learning that James, and others, think enlightenment is simple (at least to the stage of Stream-entry). Regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 1/24/05 10:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > On the other hand, > > sitting with legs crossed, relaxing, and thinking about anicca, > > dukkha and anatta is easy. There are many meditation teachers who > > want us to throw out the difficult version and replace it with the > > easy one. > > > ====================== > That's a straw man, Ken. > > With metta, > Howard 41286 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 0:45am Subject: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Htoo, #40690, DT219 You wrote several very useful (but v.difficult) posts on clear and faint objects etc. As Nina knows, I get confused with the very greats and the greats and the translations vary too, so sometimes it's not clear (to me) whether we're talking about sense door or mind door objects out of context (but you provide the context). Now you mention a few times (and I'm sure you're right) that 'actually these objects do not have to be very clear or clear or faint or very faint. It is the arising of vithi cittas and their number..' As you say, if there is no cakkhu vatthu, there cannot be any visual object experienced and so on. Now,does the clarity just depend on the number? Surely it also depends on other factors such as light, the nature of that vatthu (blind person, for example) and so on? In the mind door process, we know that lokuttara cittas are 'absorbed' because of the nature of the object (nibbana) to give an obvious example…..??? ….. #40779 DT222 Several times you say vipaka cittas arise 'RIGHTLY' but javana cittas may vary. I follow you and I like the Burmese expression 'Vipaka's right, javana may not be right'. You gave an example of how smelling or seeing rotten flesh is definitely a disagreeable object or see or hear about a disaster. I discussed this topic before with other friends. As a general rule, what you say is correct, but in fact, it depends on the vipaka at that moment whether really anything unpleasant is seen, heard or smelt. Again, I'd be wary of such 'blanket' or definite rules. Similarly, when it comes to golden images or even a Buddha statue, it would depend on the result of kamma at that very moment of seeing or touching, whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka. For most people, I agree - that's why we read these examples in the texts. ….. #40782 DT223 You continue with this topic and say that if it is a highly agreeable object, the next javana cittas will all be mahakusala or mahakiriya, followed by kusala vipaka tadarammana. Are you sure this is true? Ah, you go on to say there are some exceptional cases. Devadatta, surely. But still, you may be right (that the immediately following javana cittas would have to be kusala and it is only the following series of javanas that are full of hatred. I'd need to see the textual refs on this. I may check sometime too. …. #40842. DT225 My biggest 'problem' or disagreement to date with anything in your great series has been on jhana and kasina kamatthana. For example, here you talk again about 'look into the whole circle' etc. Yes, kasina means 'whole', but I believe it has more to do with understanding our attachment to colour (or white in this case) and really understanding the insignificance of colour than it has to do with any concentration of a 'whole circle'. Why is concentration on a 'whole circle' kusala in any way? We can look at any white object (or any other colour for that matter) as I see it and begin to learn just a little about the attachment and lack of calm at that moment. This in itself can be a condition for wise reflection and calm and their characteristics can be known as being quite distinct from the usual attachment and restlessness. When it comes to all the details about the processes involved in jhana attainment and so on, I'm very happy to learn from what you write and have no quibbles. (I should say for nearly all the DTs I just learn and have no quibbles and appreciate what you write). I also liked your #40864 DT227 a lot in which you stressed 'classwise lokuttara cittas and rupavacara cittas or arupavacara cittas are totally different. But samadhiwise both kinds of citta have appana Samadhi……….because magga cittas are absorbed in nibbana.' Etc. To be contd Metta, Sarah ===== 41287 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > What I believe is that all javana cittas if they are not kiriya > cittas they do have kamma production. > > Even in ordinary thinking if it is lobha or dosa or moha related > akusala thinking citta, that thinking does have kamma production. > > There are many ordinary vipaka cittas arise in daily life. ... S: We agree they (cetana with javana cittas) are all kamma, but when it comes to 'production' or being capable of bringing results, we do seem to have a different understanding. If as you say, any lobha, dosa or moha related thinking can bring a result by kamma condition, what is the difference between kamma condition and pakatu-upanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition)? What is the difference between the round of kilesa and the round of kamma? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I just included karuna as a side-track. It worths another > thread. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. I'm curious to read this thread! ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Regarding relics 'Mahaparinibbana suttas' and commentaries will > tell you more. I just forgot the name of the river. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I mentioned it, because I know there have been many, many accounts written which are not in the ancient texts and I wondered about yours. .... > Htoo: > > I said that because 'idea' is more than naming. > > 1 and 1 makes 2. 1 is naming. 'and' is naming. 'makes' is another > name. 2 is also a name. So the whole sentence is full of names. > > There is no '1' as paramattha dhamma. And nor other > words 'and' 'makes' and '2'. > > But that sentence carries idea. That idea penetrates what it should. > > If you do not have panna or wisdom then you will not know that '1 and > 1 makes 2'. > > That idea '1 and 1 makes 2' is part of panna. > > That is why I said 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalents. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I may misunderstand you, but it seems to me that what you call 'idea' here and in #40747 would come under the pannatti umbrella. In brief, if it's not citta, cetasika or rupa, then it's pannatti, wouldn't you agree? If it's not pannatti, what reality is it? You refer there to 'pannindriya cetasikas loaded cittas..', but there is no idea in panna. Understanding can have pannatti as objects, for example when there is wise reflection or the development of samatha, but the ideas are not 'part of pannindriya' (faculty of understanding). Am I missing something you're saying here? Metta, Sarah ===== > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I will stick to. Thanks Sarah for your kind comments and all the > support including computer assistence that you organized Kom to > helped me. .... S: I've forgotten, but you're most welcome and the 'kind comments' are very sincerely meant. I appreciate your contributions a lot. 41288 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, (Howard, Htoo & All), This chat with Htoo about concepts and pannatti and mention of the discussion you and Howard were having with him (which I referred to yesterday) reminded me of a couple of points I'd wished to add to your posts before. As I said to Htoo, I followed your logic more easily than his on the story about Culapandika and also recently referred to a couple of your other posts I liked. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I believe Howard has successfully shown that even in the most extreme > case, a > case that certainly doesn't apply to anyone in this group, concepts > still > played a roll. The incredible roll they play with folks actively > studying Sutta, > Abhidhamma, and related commentaries and subjects; and discussing those > ideas > with others in a group like this ... is virtually incalculable. .... S: Of course I agree here! .... > There are some who have an idea that -- 'concepts don't play any roll in > my > practice.' Now someone may get to that point, but it still has a > foundation > partially built on concepts. ... S: Yes. .... > I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown > yet. > Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to > affect > states. ... S: I don't remember anyone addressing this. I don't believe the 'nonexistent concepts' do have any power. It is the thinking, reflecting, marking and wise or unwhise consideration of them that has the power. Nonexistenct concepts which are not conceptualised are just that - nonexistent concepts. When they are conceptualised, like now, it is only the thinking about them, the particular marking and remembering etc that are real. .. > For myself, I don't think discerning "realities" in the sense of -- > 'what's > more real than something else' is the theme of the Buddha's teaching. I > don't > think he cares if you think concepts are the most real or unreal things > in the > world. I think he wants you to break attachments that lead to > suffering. > Hey...if rubbing a cloth will do the job, that's fine with him! ... S: I understand your point. I think, however, that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things as they are. Why else would he stress the importance of understanding the seeing and the seen, the hearing and the heard and so on for all the senses? Why bother to stress the understanding of the khandhas and on and on? How are the Buddha's teachings different from all other teachings on non-attachment? Is it the rubbing of the cloth that did it or the understanding which penetrated the truths while rubbing the cloth (or burning the curry or changing position....etc)? In another post at about the same time, you referred to the well-known verse about 'form is like a lump of foam' etc and suggested it is also 'a perfectly good way to view concepts as well'. Maybe, but the point of the verse is to point out the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, insubstantiality or non-self surely? Concepts don't have these characteristics, because as you said above they are 'nonexistent'! You mentioned that the Buddha wouldn't have wanted 'a mind...to reify these things as 'ultimate realities'. When we say rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are insubstantial or impermnanent etc, how are they reified? Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your comments on attachments to the Abhidhamma or other teachings. You wrote at the end (I don't have the post no) 'That's what makes these historical-type discussions quite redundan in the end, isn't it?' You had good points. And when you aded that 'one should not be attached to it in such a way that disputes or vexations would arise from such attachments', there is plenty in both the suttas and Abhidhamma to support your point. Where of course we disagree was in the very last line where you wrote 'Whatever arises is just all absolutely pure conditioned processes. Even concepts'. It's just that 'even concepts' that I have a problem with. I'd be glad to look at any references or discuss further. Metta, Sarah ====== 41289 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:19am Subject: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah, Sarah: Somehow the gist of my message got lost in the storm, but thank you for your well-written analogy none the less. James: Oh Sarah, there's no storm. ;-) It's just the same old, tired banter of me trying to get you to loosen up on your attachment to your views, and you absolutely refusing to budge. You won't even entertain for a second that you might be mistaken. That is some strong attachment! I hope I am not like that- but if I am feel free to tell me. Anyway, thanks for the compliment about `well-written' . Sarah: Let me take the liberty of spelling out that gist once more in simple terms. No need to `buy' it, I assure you. James: This is nice of you but I would have preferred it if you had stuck to the specific issues you and I addressed in the other post. Now this thread is becoming a mess and difficult to follow. Sarah: Before we fantasise about Porsches and Ferraris (ways of attaining nibbana), let's see if we need to learn to walk first in baby steps (learn about namas and rupas). James: Ugh! A poor mixing of metaphors: cars and baby steps! ;-)) Anyway, I don't consider the Buddha's teaching or attaining nibbana to be a fantasy. If you consider it a fantasy or just way too beyond you, that's too bad for you. Honestly, I don't know why you bother then. Sarah: When we've got a little more idea about making these baby steps, even though we may well still be at the toddler stage (wobbly and occasional arising of sati only), we need to start learning about left and right (the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome states) and how to cross the road at the zebra crossing, traffic lights or with the assistance of the `lollipop lady'* (develop satipatthana, samatha and all kinds of kusala). James: This is the dhamma according to Sarah; what about the dhamma according to the Buddha? What `steps' does he recommend? Take for example this sutta where the Buddha describes the stages in reverse order: "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html#sangha James: So, the dhamma according to the Buddha begins with mindfulness of in and out breathing. That is the first baby step (to use your analogy) and yet you don't believe in the value of being mindful of in and out breathing: "Oh, that is being selective about the object of awareness. Oh, that reinforces the idea of a `self' which can do something. Oh, oh, oh…" Sarah, you aren't even taking the first baby steps, you are just talking. I'm going to skip some of your other points because they are really repetition of the same point. Sarah: No, I'm not making difficult sacrifices or having `painful sitting in meditation',but then I believe the development of any kind of kusala (with calm naturally) is light, free of torment and not about beating oneself up in anyway. The Middle Path. James: No, that is not the middle path- that is the self-indulgent path. I can be self-indulgent also, but I at least admit it- and don't confuse that with real practice. You should call a spade for spade. Metta, James 41290 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ straw men Hi Ken H., Ken: Of course I find it hard! Do you think right understanding is simple? Normally that would be a ridiculous question, but I ask it with some seriousness after learning that James, and others, think enlightenment is simple (at least to the stage of Stream-entry). James: Excuse me? I didn't say that. Don't go using me for another one of your straw men. ;-) Metta, James 41291 From: Jhanananda Date: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:04pm Subject: Jhana Sources Jhana Sources Hello my good friends who follow a contemplative life, I thought you might like to have some resources for the meditative absorption states. Within a Southern (Nikayan) Buddhist context the meditative absorptions are known as Jhana, this however does not mean that these subjective states are any different from what Christian mystics, like Teresa of Avila, called the religious ecstasies. In fact one will find every contemplative tradition has some context for these states. The current issue of Tricycle (Winter 2004) has a special section titled 'The Jhanas: Perfecting States of Concentration'. Articles and contents are: Mary Talbot: WHAT ARE THE JHANAS? Bhante Henepola Gunaratana: THE PATH OF SERENITY AND INSIGHT Leigh Brasington: A MIND PURE, CONCENTRATED, AND BRIGHT Christina Feldman: OPENING THE GATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS Thanissaro Bhikkhu: SEEING FOR YOURSELF Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo: ABSORBED IN THE BREATH plus selection from the Pali Canon http://www.tricycle.com/new.php?p=articles&id=280 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& other S O U R C E S for J H A N A GREAT WESTERN VEHICLE In an effort to provide support for those seeking to cultivate the jhanas the Great Western Vehicle offers two services to the jhana bound contemplative. They provide an archive of articles on the subject of jhana. The Jhana archive is at this URL: http://www.geocities.com/jhanananda/jhanaarticles.htm JHANA SUPPORT GROUP A peer level support group for supporting people who have. or think they are experiencing the symptoms or conditions of ecstatic absorption (jhana). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ BHAVANA SOCIETY Maháthera Henepola Gunaratana http://www.bhavanasociety.org/ Articles on Jhana by Maháthera Henepola Gunaratana http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas00.htm LEIGH BRASINGTON's Web site: http://home.attbi.com/~leighb/ METTA FOREST MONASTERY (WAT METTAVANARAM) Thanissarro Bhikku (Tan Geoffrey) http://here-and-now.org/watmetta.html The Jhanas By Ajahn Brahmavamso http://www.geocities.com/jhanananda/thejhanas.pdf May you become enlightened in this very life-time, Sotapanna Jhanananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks) http://www.geocities.com/jhanananda/ 41292 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James & all - especially those living in the Eastern United States --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Oh Sarah, there's no storm. ;-) .... Thx for telling me ;-) I appreciated the warning too. Howard and all, just watched the News about all your storms in NY and other states. Hope no probs for any of you in your parts of the world. Metta, Sarah ========= 41293 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:43am Subject: Right Effort Dear Friends, This is always a good topic and I'm glad to read the on-going threads and not intending to butt in.....:-/ I just wish to share again with any newcomers this extract from a post of Dan's which deserves a regular airing in my view.. Dan: "As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- cittani. It is interesting to read how it differs from the viriya cetasika arising with the sense-sphere kusala cittas: [Dhs. 13] "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment and understanding. Is this done via ritual? I don't think so." ***** For the full message and another of Dan's I quickly found: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13176 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8187 Also, plenty more excellent posts from the archives(in my view) in Useful Posts under Effort-right (files section). Metta, Sarah ======== 41294 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Dear Bhante - In a message dated 1/25/05 12:40:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, bhikkhu_ekamuni@y... writes: > A curious &puzzled friend asked: > > What are the 10 questions where Buddha kept silence ? > > Buddha did not answer these 10 questions: > > Why not ? > Because they are indeterminable &thus rightly unanswerable. > Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. > Because they thus obstruct &destroy the only Way to Final Peace. > > What are the 10 Indeterminable Questions ? > > 1: Is the Universe Finite ? > 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? > 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? > 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? > 5: Is the Vitality of Life the same as the Body ? > 6: Is the Vitality of Life different from the Body ? > 7: Do a Well-Gone-One exist after Death ? > 8: Do a Well-Gone-One not exist after Death ? > 9: Do a Well-Gone-One both exist ¬ exist after Death ? > 10: Do a Well-Gone-One neither exist nor not exist after Death ? > > Questions like these are based on false a priori assumption &are > absurd &thus wrongly formulated. Bertran Russel gave another > good example of these logic traps: Is the French King bald ? > Initially the question seems to point to absence of hair, yet > closer analysis reveal that since there exist no French King now > so how can he ever be bald or anything else for that matter ... ;-) > Also there the Buddha would have kept silence... Hehehe > > : - ] > > > Friendship is the Greatest! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka > > ========================= Bhante, you point to these as being indeterminable due to their having false presuppositions. While I can think of some additional reasons, depending on circumstances, for the indeterminicity of the 1st four, I believe you are correct about false presuppositions being the primary reason. I think it would be very useful were it possible to discern in each case what those false presuppositions are. I have some ideas on a couple of these, but not all. In any case, I would prefer to hear and learn about this rather than just put forward my own guesses. I would greatly appreciate it if you and others could state what you see as the false presuppositions, giving Suttic, Abhidhammic, or commentarial support when and if possible. (Please note: This is just a request, not an assignment! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41295 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ straw men Hi, Ken - Okay, my friend. We are looking at the same things, but we are not seeing the same things. And there doesn't seem to be much likelihood of our coming to agreement. There is an apparently insurmountable gulf between our understandings, at least at this point in time. Well, what is, is. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/25/05 2:52:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --------------------------------------- > KH: >>. . . how do your answers differ from mine? >> > > > Howard: >My answer follows in the remainder of my post, in > discussing two truths, the conventional and the ultimate, with the > ultimate truth underlying the conventional truth. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Maybe I don't try hard enough to understand your point of view. You > probably find that frustrating and you accuse me of putting up straw > men. > > I know how you feel! > > :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41296 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (243) Dear Dhamma Friends, As repeatedly said before, at any given time there is a citta and it is associated with many cetasikas and the whole mixture has to home on a ground or a base or vatthu and the whole mixture also has to hook at an object or arammana which is one of 6 kinds. These 7 kinds are 1.rupa or sight (form, shape) or 'things that are able to be seen' 2.sadda or sound or 'things that are able to be heard' 3.gandha or smell or 'things that are able to be smelled' 4.rasa or taste or 'things that are able to be tasted' 5.photthabba or 'things that are able to be touched' 6.dhammas or 'things that are able to be thought out' 1 to 4 are 4 paramattha rupas. 5 is one or the other of 3 paramattha rupas. 6 is one or the other of 6 kinds of dhamma. Paramattha = parama + attha Parama or 'parama.m' means 'higher' 'superior'. Attha means 'essence' 'meaning'. Paramattha means 'superior essence' 'superior meaning' 'higher meaning'. This means that ''no other things or definitions are right rather than these 'superior meaning'.'' 1 to 4 are things that can be confirmed by anyone whoever is intelligent or foolish, highly intelligent or unlearned, well- perfected or just-beginner. 5 is one or the other of 3 paramattha rupas. These 3 paramattha rupas are 1.pathavi or 'the essence that has the character of hardness- softness/roughness-smoothness', 2.tejo or 'the essence that has the character of warmth-cold-hotness', 3.vayo or 'the essence that has the character of pressing/being-pulled/moving/vibrating/supporting. 6 is one or the other of 6 kinds of dhamma. Again when it is a kind that kind,when serves as an object, has to be one or the other in the whole range of dhammas within that kind. These 6 kinds are a) 5 pasada rupas So when 1 pasada rupa is serving as an object the others do not involve. This is what I have said 'has to be one or the other in the whole range of dhammas within that kind'. Here the whole range is 1.cakkhu-pasada, 2.sota-pasada, 3.ghana-pasada, 4.jivha-pasada,5.kaya- pasada. b) 16 sukhuma rupas or 16 subtle materials Again when one serves as an object the other subtle materials do not involve. c) 89 cittas or 121 cittas[89 kinds of consciousness or 121 kinds] When one citta is serving as an object, the others do not involve. d) 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors When one serves as an object the other cetasikas do not involve e) 1 nibbana or 'liberation' f) 1 pannatti When one idea or concept serves as an object there is no other ideas or concepts. If that given citta is 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' and it is the very first citta in a given life then that citta is 'linking consciousness' in a being who is born in one of 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existence. 'Upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' This is a citta. It is santirana citta. Santirana means 'investigating'. It gets this name because it can do the job of investigating. But in the above name when it serves as linking consciousness it is not a santirana citta or investigating consciousness. It is patisandhi citta or linking consciousness. It is santirana citta. It is a vipaka citta. Vipaka means 'resultant' 'cooked result'. Again this vipaka or result is the result of 'bad-doing' or 'akusala' or 'unwholesome'. So it is akusala vipaka santirana citta. It does not have any root of 6 root dhammas or 6 roots. These 6 roots are 1.lobha or 'attachment' 2.dosa or 'aversion' 'hatred' 3.moha or 'ignorance' 4.alobha or 'non-atachment' 5.adosa or 'non-aversion' 6.amoha or 'non-ignorance' or 'panna' or 'wisdom' The above citta does not have any of these 6 dhammas. So it is ahetuka citta. Upekkha here means 'indifferent feeling'. Saha means 'together with'. Gata means 'to go'. Upekkha saha gata means 'in association with indifferent feeling'. This citta 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' is a single citta. This citta can do as many as 5 jobs. They are 1. the job of linking [cuti citta of previous life with 1st bhavanga citta of current life] or patisandhi kicca. Pati means 'again' and sandhi means 'to link' kicca means 'function' or 'job'. 2. the job of 'continuing the current life' or bhavanga kicca. Bhavanga = bhava + anga. Bhava means 'existence' and anga means 'limb' 'part' 'component'. 3. the job of 'ending the current life' or cuti kicca. Cuti means 'move from the current existence' 4. the job of 'investigating the object' or santirana kicca. Santirana = sam + tirana. Sam means 'very well' 'without fault' and tirana means 'investigate'. 5. the job of 'retaining the object' or tadarammana kicca. Tadarammana = tada + arammana. Tada means 'then' 'the' 'afterwards'. Arammana means 'object'. Arammana = Aa + rammati + mana. Rammati means 'enjoy'. Arammanas are 'where mana or mind or citta enjoy'. If the given citta is 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta' and it is at the very first moment in a life or if it is performing linking function then that linking is said to be 'rebirth in one of 4 woeful planes of existence'. When does it come from? No one dictates this citta to arise. But the conditions favour arising of this citta. So what are the conditions? The conditions are 1. ending of the previous life [disappearance of cuti citta of previous life] 2. having done unwholesome actions in the past near or far in the whole samsara like 1.killing,2.stealing,3.lying, 4.sexual intrusion etc. 3. having arisen akusala javana cittas as last javana cittas in the previous life etc etc. 11 of 12 akusala cittas [ 8 lobha cittas, 2 dosa cittas, and 2 moha cittas ] can give rise to apaya patisandhi or rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence. Upekkha saha gatam uddhacca sampayutta moha mula akusala citta does not give rise to 'apaya patisandhi' or 'rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence'. But this uddhacca citta does give rise to other pavatti- vipaka cittas which are not patisandhi cittas. Sotapams, sakadagams and anagams do have uddhacca cittas at some time and they are not reborn in 4 woeful planes of existence. So why are sattas in 4 woeful planes of existence reborn in their respective realm? Because of kamma patha actions of akusala in the immediate past life or previous lives far away and far to be accessed. They are called katatta kamma. That is kamma that has been done once in a life which may be kappas long or more than that. Miccha-ditthi can give rise to 'rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41297 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Sarah (and TG) - In a message dated 1/25/05 4:42:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > >I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown > >yet. > >Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to > >affect > >states. > ... > S: I don't remember anyone addressing this. I don't believe the > 'nonexistent concepts' do have any power. It is the thinking, reflecting, > marking and wise or unwhise consideration of them that has the power. > Nonexistenct concepts which are not conceptualised are just that - > nonexistent concepts. When they are conceptualised, like now, it is only > the thinking about them, the particular marking and remembering etc that > are real. > .. > ======================== I agree with you here, Sarah, definitely. But I also think there is more. Actually I addressed this issue briefly in a post to someone though I don't recall who that someone was. Obviously, what does not exist does not serve as condition. In fact, to say that it does or does not is, in each case, without meaning, because there *is* no "it". However, there *is* a huge collection of experiential realities (paramattha dhammas) that serves as the basis for projecting the concept, and those dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas upon which we impute further concepts. So the reality is of dhammas conditioning dhammas, but our thinking process views it differently in a way that usually obscures the reality, but does not in the case of an arahant. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41298 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:12am Subject: Snowstorm Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/25/05 8:11:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Howard and all, just watched the News about all your storms in NY and > other states. Hope no probs for any of you in your parts of the world. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================= Thanks, sarah. It was a bit of a blizzard in the New York area - a good amount of snow & high winds, but we have seen worse. In our area of western Long Island, we only had about 15" of snow, but there was a lot of drifting, also, due to the high winds. Further east on the island, there was closer to two feet of snow, with drifts way higher. In any case, there were very few power outages, the roads were cleared quickly and well, and, overall, this wasn't very "bad". The temperature has been the biggest problem, in the single digits, and with the wind-chill factor in negative territory. Thanks again for asking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41299 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Sarah, I snipped away all other unused old messages. I hope you do not mind that and if this does not make full sense please refer to the original one when I replied. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We agree they (cetana with javana cittas) are all kamma, but when it comes to 'production' or being capable of bringing results, we do seem to have a different understanding. If as you say, any lobha, dosa or moha related thinking can bring a result by kamma condition, what is the difference between kamma condition and pakatu-upanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition)? What is the difference between the round of kilesa and the round of kamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a good question. 1) kamma condition or 'kamma paccaya' There are 2 kinds of condition in kamma paccaya. They are a) sahajaata kamma paccaya and b) naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya Sahajaata kamma paccaya a) causal dhamma or paccaya dhamma is 'cetana cetasika in 89 cittas' b) conditioned dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma is 89 cittas along with their cetasikas [52], cittaja rupas, and patisandhi kammaja rupas c) conditionality is called 'kamma paccaya' and it is sahajata kamma paccaya Naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya a) causal dhamma or paccaya dhamma are 14 akusala cetasikas and 19 sobhanasaadhaarana cetasikas all together 33 cetasikas and these are cetasikas that arisen in the past when kusala or akusala were being done. b) conditioned dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma is 36 vipaka cittas and their associated cetasikas, all cittaja rupas that derived from these 36 vipaka cittas except 2 vinatti rupas and patisanbdhi kammaja rupas. c) conditionality is called 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. If you are thinking with akusala cittas then there are akusala cetasikas along with those akusala cittas and they condition later dhamma as 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. This does not need to be kamma patha. Pakati-upanissaya paccaya or pakatu-panissaya paccaya or natural decisive support condition has a wide range of conditions. Among them there include raga or lust, dosa or hatred, moha or ignorance, maana or conceit, ditthi or wrong-view, pattana or expectation are some part of natural decisive support condition. The difference is that kamma paccaya is related to akusala and kusala dhamma when it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. If cetana cetasika arise along with kiriya cittas then those 19 cetasikas (sobhasaadhaarana cetasikas) do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya because it is kiriya and not akusala or kusala. When you are just thinking with kusala or akusala then it is not kiriya and it does have kamma effect and it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. It does not need to be kamma patha to be repeated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: I just included karuna as a side-track. It worths another > > thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. I'm curious to read this thread! ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I was just refering to the effect. Karuna just lasts a moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Regarding relics 'Mahaparinibbana suttas' and commentaries will > > tell you more. I just forgot the name of the river. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I mentioned it, because I know there have been many, many accounts written which are not in the ancient texts and I wondered about yours. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just drew out from my memory. I am not good at story. So there might be some inaccuracies and if someone wants details they are advised to go further research. I just tried to touch as many dhamma areas as possible and this is my main reason that I am writing in different Yahoo Groups. I am just a beginner. When I was told that I was advanced I just smiled. I have told Joop what are my references and he now accepted what my references are. Abhidhammatthasangaha is just a summary. It is called 'little-finger- athakatha' or concise commentary. I based on that and extended if needed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > I said that because 'idea' is more than naming. > > 1 and 1 makes 2. 1 is naming. 'and' is naming. 'makes' is another > > name. 2 is also a name. So the whole sentence is full of names. > > There is no '1' as paramattha dhamma. And nor other > > words 'and' 'makes' and '2'. > > But that sentence carries idea. That idea penetrates what it should. > > If you do not have panna or wisdom then you will not know that '1 and 1 makes 2'. > > That idea '1 and 1 makes 2' is part of panna. > > That is why I said 'idea, concepts, pannatti' are not equivalents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I may misunderstand you, but it seems to me that what you call 'idea'here and in #40747 would come under the pannatti umbrella. In brief, if it's not citta, cetasika or rupa, then it's pannatti, wouldn't you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. But what TG and Howard referred was different and that is why I responded in that way. Dhamma is larger, wider, deeper than great oceans. Again panna which is just one of Dhamma is also limitless and larger, wider, deeper than great oceans [see sabbaannuta nana]. As you said if 'something' is not citta, not cetasika, not rupa and not nibbana then it has to be 'pannatti'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: If it's not pannatti, what reality is it? You refer there to 'pannindriya cetasikas loaded cittas..', but there is no idea in panna. Understanding can have pannatti as objects, for example when there is wise reflection or the development of samatha, but the ideas are not 'part of pannindriya' (faculty of understanding). Am I missing something you're saying here? Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think something is missing even though you are right to say 'if something is not citta, not cetasika, not rupa and not nibbana, it has to be pannatti'. I will post at some point regarding this when idea arises. It comes like a flash of light and I just catch that flash and then I posted most of the time. It here means 'idea of what to write' 'what to post'. Example is 2 teams of forces that support the king citta. Obviously saddha is like a leader and I appointed him as a commander (army and navy) and appointed in both teams. 12 cetasikas are easy to group. From 7 when saddha is removed as it is already appointed as general or admiral there left 6 cetasikas and I group them into 2 of 3 cetasikas. These idea just came as a flash of light and I caught it and jotted down for later use. That simile is for easy remembrance and not to dilute or dissuade or deviate the already existing Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41300 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 > Htoo: > > > > I will stick to. Thanks Sarah for your kind comments and all the > > support including computer assistence that you organized Kom to > > helped me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: I've forgotten, but you're most welcome and the 'kind comments' are very sincerely meant. I appreciate your contributions a lot. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Sorry I forgot to reply this part and accidently deleted this part. That assistence was 'how to snip away'. Kom taught me with e-mail. That was your indirect help in my computer matter. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41301 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 1/25/05 9:55:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Actually I addressed this issue briefly in a post to someone though I > don't recall who that someone was. Obviously, what does not exist does not > serve > as condition. In fact, to say that it does or does not is, in each case, > without meaning, because there *is* no "it". However, there *is* a huge > collection > of experiential realities (paramattha dhammas) that serves as the basis for > projecting the concept, and those dhammas serve as conditions for other > dhammas > upon which we impute further concepts. ===================== I have found my prior (partial) addressing of this matter, and it happens to have been in a post to Jon! What I wrote there was "We begin in the midst of a conventional, story-world of experience and action. It is with regard to such a "world", and "actions" in it that the Buddha instructed his listeners within the suttas. There he taught them to conventionally engage in conventional actions. The realities that underlie such actions are what have consequences, and those actual consequences are yet other realities. But we worldlings do not operate at the level of awareness of realities. We operate at the conventional, conceptual level." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41302 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:55am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dialogue II. Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, #40690, DT219 You wrote several very useful (but v.difficult) posts on clear and faint objects etc. As Nina knows, I get confused with the very greats and the greats and the translations vary too, so sometimes it's not clear (to me) whether we're talking about sense door or mind door objects out of context (but you provide the context). Now you mention a few times (and I'm sure you're right) that `actually these objects do not have to be very clear or clear or faint or very faint. It is the arising of vithi cittas and their number..' As you say, if there is no cakkhu vatthu, there cannot be any visual object experienced and so on. Now,does the clarity just depend on the number? Surely it also depends on other factors such as light, the nature of that vatthu (blind person, for example) and so on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Pali word 'mahanta' and 'ati-mahanta' in these 6 visaya-pavatti or 'arising of objects' means the amount of 'vithi citta'. Ati-mahanta-arammana means 'the arammana or object that has very(ati) great(mahanta) amount of vithi cittas. There are a total of 14 vithi cittas. This is very great amount of vithi citta compared to paritta- arammana or mahanta-arammana. Again this 'ati-mahanta-arammana' 'mahanta-arammana' 'paritta- arammana' and 'ati-paritta-arammana' are not referring directly to object. It refers to 'arising' or pavatti. So it is called visaya- pavatti. They are not objects. But they are conditions of objects. The conditions do invlove light, media, air, saliva, nerve and conditions of vatthu. 1. ati-mahanta-arammana 14 vithi cittas 2. mahanta-arammana 12 vithi cittas 3. paritta-arammana 6 vithi cittas 4. ati-paritta-arammana 0 vithi cittas 12 is great. 6 is fewer than 12 and it is paritta or less/few. 14 is very great. 0 is very few. It is too few to count any vithi cittas. So according to Pali it is 'number based' but as you said conditions such as life, vatthu do have effects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: In the mind door process, we know that lokuttara cittas are `absorbed' because of the nature of the object (nibbana) to give an obvious example…..??? ….. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding mind door process there are 2 kinds. One is kama kind and another is appana kind. All appana javana are vibhuta-arammana or obvious object and there is no 2 kinds of visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object'. Again vibhuta avibhuta refers to number of vithi cittas and not directly to the object. Appana javanas are always vibhuta-arammana and there is no 2 kinds if I have to repeat again. This means that after manodvaravajjana citta there are 7 javana cittas in jhana javana, magga javana, abhinna javana and uncountable javana citta when in jhana-samapatti and phala- samapatti. All appana javana cittas arise in vibhuta-arammana of visaya-pavatti. In kama javana vithi vara there are 2 kinds and one is vibhuta- arammana and another is avibhuta-arammana. Here in vibhuta-arammana there are 10 vithi cittas ( 1 manodvaravajjana, 7 javana cittas, 2 tadarammana cittas ) while in avibhuta-arammana there are only 8 vithi cittas. So compared to 8, 10 vithi cittas is greater in number than 8. So 10 vithi cittas comprise in vibhuta-arammana or obvious object and 8 vithi cittas comprise in avibhuta-arammana or non-obvious object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: #40779 DT222 Several times you say vipaka cittas arise `RIGHTLY' but javana cittas may vary. I follow you and I like the Burmese expression `Vipaka's right, javana may not be right'. You gave an example of how smelling or seeing rotten flesh is definitely a disagreeable object or see or hear about a disaster. I discussed this topic before with other friends. As a general rule, what you say is correct, but in fact, it depends on the vipaka at that moment whether really anything unpleasant is seen, heard or smelt. Again, I'd be wary of such `blanket' or definite rules. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not my blanket. It is written in Abhidhammatthasangaha by Venerable Anuruddha of Tumuulasoma Monastry of Celon or Sri Lanka. 'Sabbatthaapi panettha anitthe aarammane akusalavipakaaneva pancavinnana sampaticchana santirana tadaarammanaani' 'Itthe kusalavipakaani' 'Ati-itthe pana somanassa saha gataa neva santirana tadaarammanaani' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Similarly,when it comes to golden images or even a Buddha statue, it would depend on the result of kamma at that very moment of seeing or touching, whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka. For most people, I agree - that's why we read these examples in the texts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again Venerable wrote here like this.. 'Tatthaapi somanassa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane somanassa sahagataa neva tadaarammanaani bhavanti' 'upekkhaa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane ca upekkhaa sahagataa neva honti'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: ….. #40782 DT223 You continue with this topic and say that if it is a highly agreeable object, the next javana cittas will all be mahakusala or mahakiriya, followed by kusala vipaka tadarammana. Are you sure this is true? Ah, you go on to say there are some exceptional cases. Devadatta, surely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have quoted above. If the perception is felt through mahakusala or mahakiriya then 2 following tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka and they cannot be [CANNOT BE] akusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. I did show the example of Devadattha. In that case, vipaka is still right. I means after the kiriya citta of panca-dvara-avajjana there follow 3 cittas which are all vipaka cittas. They are panca-vinnana citta, sampaticchana citta and santirana citta. Votthapana citta or manodvara-avajjana citta is a kiriya cittas. Between 2 kiriya cittas there are 3 vipaka cittas. Vipaka is right for all. Even for Devadattha they are kusala vipaka cittas. But manodvara-avajjana which functions as votthapana citta decides to fully apperceive as domanassa then all 7 javana cittas will be domanassa saha gatam patigha sampayutta asankharika cittas and sasankharika cittas. But tadarammana vipaka cittas are no more somanassa cittas but upekkha cittas. These upekkha cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. After akusala there follow abyakata dhamma according to samanantara paccaya. Akusala cittas of Devadattha's dosa javana is followed by abyakata dhamma vipaka tadarammana cittas. These vipaka are kusala vipaka. [quote Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: But still, you may be right (that the immediately following javana cittas would have to be kusala ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I think you confused with kusala and abyakata dhamma. Tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. They are not kusala dhamma. But they may well be abyakata dhamma derived from kusala or akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: and it is only the following series of javanas that are full of hatred. I'd need to see the textual refs on this. I may check sometime too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Textual reference is already quoted above. Domanassa javana cittas are akusala dhamma. But tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: …. #40842. DT225 My biggest `problem' or disagreement to date with anything in your great series has been on jhana and kasina kamatthana. For example, here you talk again about `look into the whole circle' etc. Yes, kasina means `whole', but I believe it has more to do with understanding our attachment to colour (or white in this case) and really understanding the insignificance of colour than it has to do with any concentration of a `whole circle'. Why is concentration on a 'whole circle' kusala in any way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because there is sati, saddha, and other components of kusala dhamma including panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: We can look at any white object (or any other colour for that matter) as I see it and begin to learn just a little about the attachment and lack of calm at that moment. This in itself can be a condition for wise reflection and calm and their characteristics can be known as being quite distinct from the usual attachment and restlessness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The practitioner already drives out attachment, restless and has developed good nature concentrating on the object and that does work because there is panna who knows this is lust, this is aversion, this is ill will, this is restlessness, this is sluggishness, this is doubt, this is worry etc. Both teachers of Bodhisatta did not penetrate anicca-dukkha-anatta and they both were reborn in arupa brahma realms as puthujana arupa brahmas. As they are puthujana they will not be able to become sotapams and so other magga nana cannot be atained as long as in arupa brahma bhumis. But they did have panna which know bad things as bad things like lust, hatred, worry etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: When it comes to all the details about the processes involved in jhana attainment and so on, I'm very happy to learn from what you write and have no quibbles. (I should say for nearly all the DTs I just learn and have no quibbles and appreciate what you write). I also liked your #40864 DT227 a lot in which you stressed `classwise lokuttara cittas and rupavacara cittas or arupavacara cittas are totally different. But samadhiwise both kinds of citta have appana Sa madhi……….because magga cittas are absorbed in nibbana.' Etc. To be contd Metta, Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said so because they are not the same. When jhana cittas are poorly understood this problem arises. Let us re-examine again these appana cittas. 1st kind Rupavacara 1st jhana citta If in 1st jhana-samapatti vithi vara will be BBB...BBBMPUAGJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ J here is 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam rupaavacara 1st jhana rupakusala citta'. It is obviously kusala citta. This kusala citta is jhana kusala and the object is 'the object of rupavara rupa jhana' and it is not nibbana. So if as long as the object os 1st jhana citta is not released that 1st jhana citta cannot take any lokuttara dhamma and so it is never lokuttara citta. This is right even in the case of arahat when they are in 1st jhana-samapatti. Their samapatti will be rupavacara 1st rupa jhana kiriya cittas in succession and this is obviously not lokuttara citta. So do other rupavacara rupa jhana cittas. They all are kusala cittas when they arise in non-arahats and they are kiriya when they arise in arahats. They are not lokuttara. By the same token when arupa jhanas arise they are arupavacara arupakusala cittas if non-arahats and arupavacara arupakiriya cittas if in arahats. They are never lokuttara cittas. They do not see nibbana. 2nd kind Lokuttara cittas 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMPUAGMPPBBBBB 2nd M is magga citta while 1st M is manodvara-avajjana citta. Magga citta is immediately followed by 2 phala cittas if the practitioner is mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or intelligent person then it will be like this 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMUAGMPPPBBBBB There are 7 javana cittas in both series. In the 1st 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotrabhu, 5.magga, 6. phala, 7 2nd phala. In the 2nd 1.upacara, 2.anuloma, 3. gotrabhu, 4. magga, 5.1st phala, 6.2nd phala, 7.3rd phala Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not jhana object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is they take nibbana as their object. Parikamma, upacara, anuloma are preparatory, proximate and facilitating citta. They see paramattha dhamma and see anicca, dukkha, anatta. Magga citta is not conditioned through asevana paccaya but other paccaya in this 7 javana cittas. There is no object of rupa jhana which are all panatti. If in phala samapatti then vithi vara will be.. BBB...BBBMUPAGPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPBB..BBBB All these phala citta see nibbana. They do not see any of rupa jhana object. So they all are lokuttara cittas as they see nibbana which is beyond lokas and not related to lokiya matters. 3rd kind. 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam pathamajjhana sotapatti magga citta' Again it is quite clear that this lokuttara jhana citta is not rupavacara jhana citta. It is said it is magga citta. It is lokuttara kusala citta. But that kusala citta does have 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, ekaggata' and as it is well calm it has the quality of 1st jhana as once Kel said. But it is clear that this lokuttara jhana citta is not rupavacara jhana citta which is a lokiya citta while lokuttara jhana citta is always lokuttara citta and lokuttara citta always take nibbana as its object and no other object. When cittas are not well understood there always are problems of debate whether lokuttara cittas are jhana cittas or not. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41303 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo and Kel, Htoo, I personally hope your DT series continues to 1000. Thank you for accommodating various requests to go at a slower pace. More to add on them later, to show there's dialogue going on as you say;-). (Kel, I liked the comments you wrote to Joop (#41078) on the ti- lakkhana. `When you truly understand anicca, you understand anatta' etc.) Like Nina, the comments you've both been making about not knowing sotapatti magga nana etc having occurred seem rather strange. You'd have to show me one example from the texts of this - someone who didn't know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, this is my late reply. Some passed sotapatti magga gate and they do not practise phala samapatti because they do not have jhana and they do not practise phala-samapatti. As they attained sotapatti magga with dry method or without jhana they may not know when they pass sotapatti magga gate. This does not means sotapatti magga citta does not know it enters ariyan area. But the person as we know does not know fully his status but he is totally free of doubt or suspicion, free of wrong view and free of rituals [silabbattaparamaasa]. Sotapatti magga is a single point. Do you ever remember a single point in the middle of billions of different citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: The sotapanna has no doubt at all. Anyway, Kel and Nina are already discussing this issue. On the 3 kinds of samapatti, you may also like to look at past messages in U.P. under `fruition'. Here's an extract from one of Nina's (part of a translated series): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18583 "Dhamma Issues 2, Fruition Attainment, no 7 There are three kinds of attainments, samåpatti: jhåna-attainment, fruition-attainment and cessation-attainment (nirodha samåpatti [15) which are progressively more subtle and refined. The ordinary person is able to attain at his own level mundane jhåna. The ariyan who has attained enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non-returner and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation- attainment. Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these different attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations." ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thank you Sarah. Nina's posts are clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Htoo, I liked your post on `nirodha-samapatti' very much. Many people have misunderstandings. Your breakdown of terms is very helpful. I think the passage above indicates that for phala-samapatti, the enlightenment had to occur with jhana and for nirodha samapatti, the anagami or arahant must have full mastery of all jhanas and the 8 attainments which were not common even in the Buddha's time, as I understand. You mentioned about how in nirodha samapatti there is no citta or cetasika or cittaja rupa. "So from the outside if these arahats are seen by other beings they will be like statues." This also reminded me of a passage from Dispeller 2588(Sammohavinodani)which always makes me smile (we used to play a party game as children called `Statues';-)). This is referring to the realm where only anagamis can be reborn. "Asa~n~nasattaana.m (`of the non-percipient beings'): of the beings devoid of perception. For some, after going forth in a sectarian sphere and seeing a fault in consciousness because lusting, hating and being deluded depends upon consciousness, imagine that `The consciousless state is good, this is nibbaana in the present existence;' and they generate the fading away of greed for perception and, developing the fifth attainment in conformity therewith, they are reborn there. At the moment of their rebirth the materiality aggregate alone is reborn. If he is reborn standing, he stands only; if reborn sitting, he sits only; if reborn lying down, he lies only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Regarding asannisatta certain super intelligent one said there are 2 cittas that arise in asannisattas and they are patisandhi citta and cuti citta. These 2 are exceptions and in the middle there is no citta at all. I do not believe so. Asannisattas are reborn with rupa-patisandhi and they die with rupa-cuti. Any thought on these 2 cittas? Do cittas arise in asannisattas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: They remain for five hundred aeons like painted statues. At their end the material body vanishes; sense-sphere perception arises. Through the arising of that perception here [in this sphere] those deities notice (pa~n~naayanti) that they have passed away from that [material] body." ***** I hope to come back to other threads later. I hope you don't have to leave the internet meanwhile;-). Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Further adding: Asannisattas are like abhinna, I think. When jhanalabhis do iddhividdha abhinnana, there arise 1000 bodies as soon as a single abhinna javana arises. BBB...BBBPUAGAb............ In case of asannisatta, the previous life marana-asanna-javana will be like BBB...BBBPUAGJC |______Asannisattas__________|PBBBBBB.... J is 5th rupa jhana citta. It is a single citta. And it is like abhinnana. Marana-asanna-javana has 5 javana cittas. Here they are 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotabhu, 5.5thrupa jhana this is followed by cuti citta and then followed by rupa-patisandhi and then rupa-bhavanga throught out the life and die with rupa-cuti. | rupa-patisandhi. rupa-bhavanga.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RC | PBBBBB There seem to be no changes during asannisattas' life. But there are changes. Why? These are rupa dhammas and they arise and fall away. The changes that can be noted in asannisatta is arising of lahutaadi- ekadasaka-rupa-kalapa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah's PS: p.s I liked your poetry and humour in one post to `Great Larry'and your other answers to questions.I think Nina added all the extra detail on D.O. and we're all in accord. I've shared my views on labeling in other threads;-)..Your 'mass-destruction' post was very good too. I meant to add more on that as well. We can read more about the destruction of the world by floods and other causes as you say in Vism and in suttas too.As you also said, 'The Buddha left the medicine, the food, the shelter. It is the Dhamma.' ============= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I said that 'Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind'. Some see and some do not see. The Buddha helped others to see this Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41304 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/25/2005 1:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown > yet. > Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to > affect > states. ... S: I don't remember anyone addressing this. I don't believe the 'nonexistent concepts' do have any power. It is the thinking, reflecting, marking and wise or unwhise consideration of them that has the power. Nonexistenct concepts which are not conceptualised are just that - nonexistent concepts. When they are conceptualised, like now, it is only the thinking about them, the particular marking and remembering etc that are real. Hi Sarah I'm going to try to send two e-mails in response to yours because I don't like it when these things get too long. In this one, you missed my point above (which was easy to do). I am not saying concepts are non-existant. I am not taking about concepts that haven't arisen. I am imparting that viewpoint to those in this group who do not believe that (arisen) concepts are real. I am asking, from their point of view, how something that isn't real can affect things that are real. How can the principle of Dependent Origination account for that? You mention thinking, reflection, marking, wise conderation; are the powers that actually affect things. These states you mention are dependent on concepts (with possible minimal exceptions). What is thought...other than mental activity engaging a concept? How can a "reality" be supported by a "non-reality"? This is the point I was making. In my view, your comments support that viewpoint (without supporting it). ;-) TG 41305 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Htoo Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your adding. Your message is changing my memories. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Correction. Your message is charging my memories. And memories become full in power again. quote ---> Uraga With respect, Htoo Naing 41306 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 c Pilgrimage India 3 c Paññå leads to detachment from the idea of self and also from all objects we experience. I told Acharn Sujin that I was worried about Lodewijk¹s health and she answered that worry is only nåma. I found this answer like a cold shower, a bitter medicine, but it is the truth. Even when we understand the truth in theory, we may not be ready yet to accept the truth. We find our problems most important and we are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but we should remember that there is the island of Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that we should understand the real meaning of dukkha: the truth that there are only elements which do not last. We should not try to have less clinging, less worry, but understanding can be naturally developed of whatever dhamma occurs. We should have understanding of worry as only a conditioned dhamma that is already past, otherwise we cling to the idea of ³my worry². What she said is deep, it is wise, it is most effective. When we were going around the Stupa in Kusinåra which commemorates the Buddha¹s parinibbåna, Acharn Sujin reminded me that through the development of understanding there can be detachment from visible object and also from thinking. When I said that I find detachment most difficult, she stressed: ³It has to be developed!² First we have only intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa, but understanding can be developed so that direct understanding can arise. It is bound to take a long time to become detached from realities. *** Nina. 41307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas. Volition Hello Phil, I thought of you seeing the questions, I almost wanted to hint, but then I restrained myself, not wanting to force you. I snipped very little, since I like to keep your answers. op 24-01-2005 23:34 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >> i There is cetanaa, also when we are sound asleep. What is its >> function at such a moment? > > Co-ordinating the other cetasikas to help them to perform their > functions. Cetana has a kind of double funciton sometimes co- > ordinating, sometimes being the volition that is kamma. >> ii When we observe sila what is the function of cetanaa? > That would be wholesome (kusala) kamma, I guess. N: Good. >Ph: iii Which cetasika is akusala kamma or kusala kamma? > Cetana (volition.) Is that a trick question? N: no, but people do not realize that kamma is cetana cetasika, they merely think of the outward appearance of deeds. It is intention that makes the deed, it is mental and thus it can be accumulated. Ph: iv How can a deed performed in the past produce a result later >> on? > > Because they are accumulated with each citta. This is the point > that I still have trouble understanding, no matter how often Nina > explains it to me. I still see cittas completely falling away, so > don't know how anything can be accumulated. N: Each citta falls away, but the citta that falls away conditions the succeeding one by way of contiguity-condiiton, anantara paccaya and samananatara-paccaya. Anantara means: no interval. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas. This is the key. Accumulations are passed on, but with this expression of passing on we have to be careful. There is not a constant that is passed on, every dhamma changes. Also accumulations, all the time new qualities and new experiences are added. There is no end. > Ph: v What kind of result can be produced by akusala kamma >> patha (unwholesome course of action) which is completed? >> vi What are the other forms of vipåka produced by kamma, >> apart from rebirth-consciousness? > These two questions look the same to me. Vipaka can be in the form > of rebirth-consciousness or it can come through many moments of > seeing, hearing and the other six door sense objects in daily life, > though our lifetime. > > The "completed" above means that many of the necessary conditions > have been fulfilled to make it kamma patha. Otherwise wholeseome and > unwholesome deeds of mind, speech and action are accumulated and lead > to accumulated tendencies (anusayas) but not vipaka because they are > not "completed" by the fulfillment of conditions that will make them > kamma patha (?) N: Yes. Also when completed kamma is performed, there are many moments of kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising before or after a deed which are also accumulated as tendencies. The word anusaya is reserved for specific akusala latent tendencies. It is most intricate. When you give it is kusala kamma that will produce result, but when you regret your gift afterwardssuch akusala cittas influence the vipaaka, this will be less superior. I learnt this from Visuddhimagga and tiika. Ph: > vii What is the effect of the accumulation of tendencies to good >> and evil? > > The tendencies become deeper and thicker and more difficult to > eradicate? And they can reappear at unpredictable times when the > conditions are right. For example, we can feel quite proud and > confident about having made progress on the surface, but the > tendencies are there and we will get many rude reminders in life that > there is deep, deep clinging and they are very difficult to eradicate. > There is the simile of the cloth. You can wash it and get the > visible stains out, but the smell of dung clings subtly. N: Right. The last one is said of subtle conceit not yet eradicated. Also kusala is accumulated and this will condition the arising of kusala citta later on. Ph: viii When we laugh is there akusala citta? > > I would guess there usually is. There is usually lobha involved. > But there can be the arising of wholesome laughter as well. N: Then it would be smiling. But we can smile with disdain or conceit. The citta has to be knonw at that moment. When there is a sound I think it would be akusala. Ph; ix When we are daydreaming can there be akusala citta? > > How could there be anything but? Daydream is a form of longing for > things to be different than they are. That is lobha. I wouldn't call > reflection on Dhamma, on the Buddha "daydreaming." But I think such > reflections, if they arise in a natural way, are the only form of > applied thinking that don't involve some form, even very subtle, of > lobha. > >> x What are the conditions for kusala citta to arise more often? > > Hearing the Dhamma, discussion with good friends. Appreciation of > kusala citta when it arises, if it arises, in daily life. We fail to > appreciate the importance rare moments of wholesomeness and cling to > more dramatic results, but the moments of kusala cittas (often in the > form of abstaining from unwholesome thoughts, speech, deeds) > condition the arising of more, sooner or later, if we are patient. N: Very good answers, inviting to more reflection. We do not have to go far to look for opportunities for kusala, we are with people very often. I liked Jon's examples in his dialogue with Larry. It gives us more ideas for kusala. Abstaining from idle talk is a good one to remember. We are not arahats, we are not monks, but it is good to realize what kind of talking we are wasting our time with. Kusala can be performed in a natural way. As you say, we should not cling to more dramatic results. Kh Sujin always stresses: do not expect anything. With appreciation of your kusala citta, Nina. 41308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Pilgrimage India 3 b Hi Larry, op 25-01-2005 01:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a > time." > I agree this is the way experience seems, so what is experience? > According to the texts reality actually works quite differently. Many cetasikas arise at the same time and perform their functions [I wonder > if we could say instead 'express themselves'.] N: They perform their functions while they share the same object as the citta they accompany. They also experience, but eachof them in their own way. L: At any rate we never experience most of these cetasikas. N: it depends on the individual's paññaa. What is real *can* be experienced. L: This suggests to me that reality is not an object of panna because panna can have only one object at a time, but in reality many dhammas arise at a time. N: Each citta, be it accompanied by paññaa or not, can experience only one object at a time. Many dhammas arise at a time, true, but sati can be aware of only one at a time, and if paññaa accompanies the citta it can understand the nature of that dhamma. All that is real can be an object of paññaa. When seeing appears and is object of paññaa there is visible object at the same time, and there is eyebase, and there is phassa, feeling, many other dhammas. At another moment visible object can be object of paññaa. It does not matter that only one object at a time can be known, paññaa can understand whatever object appears to sati. This is an important principle for the development of satipatthana. I can explain again in another way if I did not make myself clear. L:However, that is a side issue. N: No, it is important. L:I'm mostly interested in what is experience. If experience is > consciousness how do we experience the cetasikas? N:It helps to go back to basics. Which of the four paramattha dhammas is experience: citta, cetasika, rupa or nibbana? Citta and cetasika. They experience an object. In order to understand this, we should not mix Abhidhamma with what we learnt in philosophy, for instance with notions of subject and object. This does not lead to detachment form the idea of self. L: If experience is consciousness and an object do we experience both at the same time? N: Citta experiences an object, and another citta arising later on can know a former citta, or the object it experiences, but not two dhammas at the same time. This I heard on MP3 and may be of help to understand citta, object and doorway: We know when there is seeing, because seeing is dependent on the eyedoor, it knows visible object through the eye-door. We know when there is hearing, we do not confuse seeing with hearing. But of course, without insight their different characteristics are not realized precisely. It helps to compare cittas that are dependent on a doorway with cittas not depending on any doorway. The bhavangacitta is not dependent on any doorway, and thus we cannot know what object it experiences. We do not know now when there is exactly bhavangacitta. In between processes there is also citta, the bhavangacitta, but we do not realize this yet. It is like a moment of deep sleep. By insight this citta can be known. That is why Kh Sujin said: the whole day there are moments of being awake, when we experience objects through the six doorways, and moments of deep sleep: awake, asleep, awake, asleep. We are thinking a lot, but where does it come from? It is dependent on what we experienced through the sense-doors, visible object, sound, etc. It originates from remembrance, sañña. We remember what is experienced through the sensedoors and then we think about it. Nina. 41309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to the list, sharing experiences. Hi Hugo, You spent your time well. Looking forward to your input, Nina. op 24-01-2005 22:36 schreef Hugo op eklektik@g...: > I took some time off from the list and "took with me" some topics that > popped up during my participation in this and other mailing lists. 41310 From: nina Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika CETASIKAS OF SANKHAARAKKHANDHA ACCORDING TO ASSOCIATION WITH CONSCIOUSNESS Text Vis. 133. I. (1) Herein, firstly, those associated with the first sense-sphere profitable consciousness (1) amount to thirty-six, that is to say, the constant ones, which are twenty-seven given in the texts as such, and the four 'or-whatever-states'[ 59], and also the five inconstant ones (cf. Dhs.1). ========== N: The first type of mahaa-kusala citta is associated with paññaa, accompanied by happy feeling and unprompted. The Vis. text now enumerates the thirty-six cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, that may associate with this type of citta. Thus, it does not mention here feeling and saññaa which accompany each citta and which are each a separate khandha. Twenty-seven cetasikas are expressively mentioned in the text of the Dhammasangani, Œgiven in the text as such¹ and in addition there are the four 'or-whatever-states'. ============ Note 59. Yevaapanaka (ye-vaa-pana-ka) is commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase (ye-vaa-pana- tasmi"m samaye a~n~ne pi atti pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa'--'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1) ============ N: The list of cetasikas in the Dhammasangani is not exhaustive. There are four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors. These are: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara), evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). These cetasikas are mentioned in the Anupada sutta (M. N. no 111). The Expositor (p. 174, 175) deals with these, but includes also the five cetasikas which do not arise with every kusala citta, thus it classifies the supplementary factors as ninefold. The Visuddhimagga enumerates first twentyseven cetasikas and then adds the four supplementary facors, thus together these are thirty-one cetasikas included in sa²nkhaarakkhandha that accompany the first type of mahaa-kusala citta that is associated with paññaa. These are constant or fixed (niyata), they always arise with this type of citta. Moreover, there are five sobhana cetasikas that are inconstant, they do not always accompany mahaa-kusala citta and if they do, they arise only one at a time. =========== Text Vis.: Herein, the twenty-seven given as such are these: ======== N: the Tiika states: that have been handed down in the text just as such (paa.liyaa saruupeneva aagataa). Only these are enumerated in the Dhammasangani, but there are others, namely the supplementary factors. That is why the Dhammasangani states after the enumeration: ŒOr whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen dhammas there are too on that occasion'. =============== Vis text: (i) contact, (ii) volition, (iii) applied thought, (iv) sustained thought, (v) happiness (interest), (vi) energy, (vii) life, (viii) concentration, (ix) faith, (x) mindfulness, (xi) conscience, (xii) shame, (xiii) non-greed, (xiv) non-hate, (xv) non-delusion, (xvi) tranquility of the [mental] body, (xvii) tranquility of consciousness, (xviii) lightness of the [mental] body, (xix) lightness of consciousness, (xx) malleability of the [mental] body, (xxi) malleability of consciousness, (xxii) wieldiness of the [mental] body, (xxiii) wieldiness of consciousness, (xxiv) proficiency of the [mental] body, (xxv) proficiency of consciousness, (xxvi) rectitude of the mental body, (xxvii) rectitude of consciousness. The four 'or-whatever-states' are these: (xxviii) zeal (desire), (xxix) resolution, (xxx) attention (bringing to mind), (xxxi) specific neutrality. And the five inconstant are these: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. These last arise sometimes [but not always], and when they arise they do not do so together. ========= N: The Tiika adds to the word sometimes: ³they are not fixed (aniyata) because they arise only sometimes, and when they arise they do not arise together.² Thus, altogether thirtysix cetasikas are dealt with here, thirtyone that are constant and five that are inconstant. Remark: Many conditions are necessary for the arising of the first type of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. The sobhana cetasikas which are constant have to assist mahaa-kusala citta associated with paññaa, and each of them performs its own task. All of them are necessary so that mahaa-kusala citta with paññaa can arise just for a moment and perform its function, and then citta and cetasikas fall away together. The cetasikas condition the citta by way of conascent-condition and by several other conditions. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. It arises when the right conditions are present and then it falls away immediately, nobody can cause it to last. All the sobhana cetasikas that fall away are accumulated from moment to moment so that there are conditions for the arising again of kusala citta. ***** Nina. 41311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Potthila and Yuganaddha Dear Tep, op 23-01-2005 20:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: . Have you read the Potthila Thera's story yet? N: This was the first text Rob K and I corresponded about in a series of more or less hundred letters handwritten, in the pre-internet time. I explained that Potthila could not have become an arahat if he had only be aware of nama. One cannot forego the first stage of insight: distinguishing nama from rupa. Nama should be realized as pure nama, not mixed with rupa. That is why in the arupa-brahma planes one cannot become a sotapanna. There is no rupa there to be aware of. And we read that P. after the instruction 'concentrated on the material body'. What do you think about this interprettaion: he guarded the six doorways by mindfulness and thus he was not troubled by sense impressions. These could not overwhelm him. This is my own idea, the text does not mention details. But in another sutta I read that detroying your senses is not the way. A monk was wondering about that. Yuganaddha sutta, coupled, A.n. IV, 170: we had many posts on that, pulling out texts, also the Path of Discrimination. It is very clear. Tep: "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? ... ... ... > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the > path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his > obsessions destroyed. N: The fourth way is insight, vipassana imperfections are mentioned. The Path of Discrimination also sees it from the aspect of lokuttara citta, the concentration and calm with lokuttara citta. We have to investigate this point when we read about calm and insight. There is the highest calm with phalacitta, since defilements are eradicated. See archives for this sutta. Looking at the Path of Discrimination, I saw a text on enlightenment factors, which factors we discussed before: (p. 306): These develop on and on until arahatship. I like this text. Nina. 41312 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: Right Effort Dear Sarah - Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? Dan said, " It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" or "wrong" as they arise". How was he able to "discern clearly" about these two opposite words? Couldn the difference be caused by a printing error? Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > This is always a good topic and I'm glad to read the on-going threads and > not intending to butt in.....:-/ > > I just wish to share again with any newcomers this extract from a post of > Dan's which deserves a regular airing in my view.. > > Dan: > "As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the > components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five > faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the > noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam > tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty > of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor > (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, > endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost > exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having > sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, > discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, > power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty of > endeavor." > > Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This > is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- > cittani. It is interesting to read how it differs from the viriya > cetasika arising with the sense-sphere kusala cittas: [Dhs. 13] "What > at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is > mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder > and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking > zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering > endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not > relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as > the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that > time is the faculty of endeavor." > > The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph > contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. It's fine and dandy to > toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is > critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" > or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment > and understanding. Is this done via ritual? I don't think so." extract> > ***** > For the full message and another of Dan's I quickly found: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13176 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8187 > > Also, plenty more excellent posts from the archives(in my view) in Useful > Posts under Effort-right (files section). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 41313 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/25/2005 1:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > For myself, I don't think discerning "realities" in the sense of -- > 'what's > more real than something else' is the theme of the Buddha's teaching. I > don't > think he cares if you think concepts are the most real or unreal things > in the > world. I think he wants you to break attachments that lead to > suffering. > Hey...if rubbing a cloth will do the job, that's fine with him! ... S: I understand your point. I think, however, that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things as they are. Why else would he stress the importance of understanding the seeing and the seen, the hearing and the heard and so on for all the senses? Why bother to stress the understanding of the khandhas and on and on? How are the Buddha's teachings different from all other teachings on non-attachment? Is it the rubbing of the cloth that did it or the understanding which penetrated the truths while rubbing the cloth (or burning the curry or changing position....etc)? In another post at about the same time, you referred to the well-known verse about 'form is like a lump of foam' etc and suggested it is also 'a perfectly good way to view concepts as well'. Maybe, but the point of the verse is to point out the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, insubstantiality or non-self surely? Concepts don't have these characteristics, because as you said above they are 'nonexistent'! You mentioned that the Buddha wouldn't have wanted 'a mind...to reify these things as 'ultimate realities'. When we say rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are insubstantial or impermnanent etc, how are they reified? Metta, Sarah Hi Sarah Sarah: I think, however, that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things as they are. TG: I disagree with the word "only". First of all, he did not actually say this. So the statement is an interpretation...which is fine, but needs to be clear. Second of all, "seeing things the way they are" has more to it than analyzing states as "realities." (I much prefer calling things aggregates and elements, as the Buddha did; rather than realities. "Realities" is another one of those interpretations. If you keep interpreting interpretations enough, pretty soon your chanting Nam Yo Ho Ren Gei Kyo in order to get a new car...and thinking its the Buddha's teaching.) ;-) (It amazes me that so many in this group want such perfect accuracy that they insist on using Pali terms to get that "perfection"...and yet they use terms such as "realities" or claim the Buddha taught "realities" which is utterly unaccurate. Its just an interpretation. Back to the action...) In my mind, "seeing the way things are" is also of crucial importance. But I don't believe seeing things as "namas" and "rupas" is seeing things the way they really are. That dividing mentality in 52 mental factors, or consciousness into 17 processes, is seeing things the way they really are. I think these are just a particular set of models in order to develop the ability of insight. Personally I think these are good models, but they become a hindrance when given too much credence. I think seeing things the way they really are is "intuitive realization of impermanence...with the knowledge of suffering and no-self linked with it." What is impermanent? ... Anything conditioned. Sarah: Why else would he stress the importance of understanding the seeing and the seen, the hearing and the heard and so on for all the senses? Why bother to stress the understanding of the khandhas and on and on? How are the Buddha's teachings different from all other teachings on non-attachment? TG: He stressed these things, and he stressed other things as well. Make no mistake, I believe mindfulness of states as they arise, transform, and cease is of utmost importance! But I see it as one part of the process and I don't look to discount the other ways the Buddha taught in lieu of it. Sarah: Is it the rubbing of the cloth that did it or the understanding which penetrated the truths while rubbing the cloth (or burning the curry or changing position....etc)? TG: I would suspect that if someone became enlightened by rubbing a cloth, that both a conceptual understanding and a direct realization of impermanence were accomplished and a realization of the Path to purity. Sarah: In another post at about the same time, you referred to the well-known verse about 'form is like a lump of foam' etc and suggested it is also 'a perfectly good way to view concepts as well'. Maybe, but the point of the verse is to point out the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, insubstantiality or non-self surely? Concepts don't have these characteristics, because as you said above they are 'nonexistent'! TG: Concepts arise due to conditions, they are impermanent, they are suffering if attached to, and they are not-self. Yep, they got it covered. (Remember, I didn't say that they were non-existent, I was arguing against that opinion.) Sarah: You mentioned that the Buddha wouldn't have wanted 'a mind...to reify these things as 'ultimate realities'. When we say rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are insubstantial or impermnanent etc, how are they reified? TG: Along the lines of the following -- “Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it toward the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.’ Standing upon that, he attains destruction of the taints.â€? (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 540, The Greater Discourse to Malunkyaputta, Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta, #64) Whatever can be experienced has arisen. Even a fantasy is is an arisen fantasy. It arises, tranforms, and ceases. It makes no since to talk about realities as if there were non-realites of experience. The Buddha does not talk about "realities." He talks about conditions. Because he talks about conditions, he did not obscess over what was real and what wasn't real. He did not worry about the "existence or non-existence" of concepts. He taught about conditions. Conditions are anything within the "field of experience" including inferential knowledge (which may be right or may be wrong.) Which is why his teaching applies to concepts as well and freely uses them without apology. True, the enlightened mind overcomes concepts...but ultimately it overcomes all conditions! Even the so called "realities." TG: I wrote a little piece that I wasn't going to send but because its very related I'll send it right after this post. Its called -- "Inferential Analysis is Also Important" I'm going to tack-on the above paragraph because I think it will get lost in this post. TG 41314 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:52am Subject: Inferential Analysis is Also Important Hi Sarah, All Although it is important be to aware of actual states as they arise, transform, and fall...change; it is also an important part of the Buddha's teaching to be able to analyze things inferentially. Perhaps every bit as important. The Buddha taught interesting things such as -- "it is good to image the mind as being liberated from time to time." Hummm, pure imagination is recommended by the Buddha to assist the mind toward enlightenment. The Buddha sometimes taught impermanence by way of imagining past deceased family members. By imagining the wearing away of mountains, the wearing away of adze handles, by imagining the ones body in various state of decomposition. These are not directly experiencable states. Nor were these things being taught to idiots. These are ideas, concepts, that are being utilized to lead the mind to the truth...impermanence, suffering, no-self. Seriously, I could fill a whole book on all the things the Buddha taught that need the imagination (as concepts, inferences) as part of what he taught to lead the mind to enlightenment. Based on this, I could go around saying -- the Buddha taught imagination as a way to become enlightened. And I'd have grounds to support that claim! The fact of the matter is, the Buddha taught these methods, as well as directly knowing the changing nature of actual experience, as methods to overcome attachment. They are both important. The goal is not to understand "realities." Discerning the impermanence of conditioned states is a skill used to discern impermanence. Its a good and needed skill... and so are the inferential and analytical aspects of the Buddha's teaching. But getting too bogged down into "reality details" is not something to obsess over. The point is to know these states so as to abandon these states, not to "play around" with them as the "ultimate realities." Whatever can be experienced has arisen. Even a fantasy is is an arisen fantasy. It arises, tranforms, and ceases. It makes no since to talk about realities as if there were non-realites of experience. The Buddha does not talk about "realities." He talks about conditions. Because he talks about conditions, he did not obscess over what was real and what wasn't real. He did not worry about the "existence or non-existence" of concepts. He taught about conditions. Conditions are anything within the "field of experience" including inferential knowledge (which may be right or may be wrong.) Which is why his teaching applies to concepts as well and freely uses them without apology. True, the enlightened mind overcomes concepts...but ultimately it overcomes all conditions! Even the so called conditioned "realities." (As far as Nibbana being a "reality" that's for another discussion.) TG 41315 From: Hugo Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:21am Subject: Experiences at various Temples in California 1) Wat Lao Saophuth Only one monk spoke English, and he was from the Pure Land tradition (even though the monastery is Lao and Theravada, according to the website where I got the information from). He was very nice and agreed on opening the gates for me every day early in the morning to go and meditate in the meditation hall. He was surprised but very glad on having a westerner coming to the temple and specially making this kind of request. Unfortunately he said that he wasn't able to answer the questions I had very good because he is not fluent in English, he could speak Lao and Thai, though. He gave me three books too and told me to visit again next time I am on vacation over there. 2) Wat Sacramento Buddhavanaram This monastery is from the same tradition as the one I normally go when at home (i.e. Theravada Thai Forest tradition), so I felt "at home", they even knew my teacher. Unfortunately all of them spoke English just enough to get along but not for Dhamma questions. There was a lay lady who tried to be an interpreter between the Ajahn and myself but it wasn't working that good, I noticed that she was answering on her own without relying my question to the Ajahn, and her answer was more of an "Introduction to Buddhism" rather to what I was really asking ("what attains Nibbana?"). She also told me that she just recently started visiting the monastery because her husband does. The Ajahn gave me 4 books and one chanting book, then he got a phone call, so I decided to part. There was a monk standing in the back observing my interaction with the Ajahn and the lady. Once the Ajahn went off to speak on the phone the monk came forward and gave me a little book, more like a booklet with a bright yellow-orange cover with a Buddha image on it and the title in Thai. I noticed that the title was in Thai, but I took it anyway and thanked the monk, then left the monastery. On my way out, the lady walked with me and told me that she can read minds, I decided not to ask any further questions, thanked her and left to the next monastery..... 3) Wat Posrisattanat This is not a new monastery (10 years) and it is a combination of Lao, Thai and I think Cambodian, but I am not sure about the last one. Only one monk spoke English, but he was ordained only three years ago and when I asked "What attains Nibbana?" he struggled a little as if looking for the answer written somewhere in his mind and then asked me to repeat the question, then a little more struggling, then honestly replied "I don't know" (the good thing is that he didn't make up an answer). He was nice and we exchanged a few more sentences, he told me that there were senior monks who should know the answer but none of them spoke English, he told me of one who ordained when he was like 12 and now he is 60 years old. So, still with my question unanswered I decided to do some walking meditation in one aisle of the main square (it is a big piece of land they have there, it seems that they do big celebrations around this big square. They have three big Buddha images out there, one is completely black except for some details in gold or white I can't remember). More than meditation it was reflection, I felt kind of disappointed, I felt down, but this experience (and another where a friend of mine who was born in a Buddhist family (Vietnam), couldn't tell me if she practiced Mahayana or Theravada or what, she just said Buddhism, then I found out it was Zen and she mentioned that they had a "Bible" that they used to read, but she didn't do any meditation until recently) made me put my feet back to the earth and stop all thinking that because anybody labels themselves as a Buddhist or wears a robe it means they know the truth. It seems as if my ego had some kind of boost by thinking "hey now I am a Buddhist, Buddhism is the Truth, all the Buddhists can see the truth" and now it felt betrayed. Well, no, all the Buddhists are not practicioner Buddhists, even if they consider themselves Buddhists since they were born, they might have the label but they don't practice what the Buddha taught. I also remembered what Phil (from DSG) described about the sorry state of Buddhism in Japan in one of his posts where he said that some Japanese think of Christianity as more "pure" than Buddhism because of the corruption that has invaded some people there wearing the robes that are supposed to be the robes of a Buddhist Bhikkhu. I kept walk-meditating-reflecting until my mind settled and came out with a resolution to practice, practice, practice. I went back to my car and curiosity arose...."why did the monk in the previous monastery gave me a book in Thai?, he certainly noted that I didn't speak Thai"......so, before starting up my car I took a look at the book, yes, inside it was Thai also, I keep turning the pages and voila!, half of the book was Thai, but the last half was in English!!! And guess what! it was exactly what I was looking for! The essay is titled "Citta is Buddha" and I think is exactly the answer to my question (What attains Nibbana?), at least I felt my question answered. I will elaborate on this in another thread. As a result of this jouney through three different monasteries I had much better appreciation of having an English-speaking monk living near my home. So if you have this great fortune, go to that monk and thank him for being and staying there, I certainly did thank my teacher for coming from Thailand. In the topic of thanks, I would like to thank Ven. Vimalaramsi and many other Bhikkhus (e.g. those at SanghaOnline) who share their experience on-line. -- Hugo 41316 From: Hugo Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Hello Howard, On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:14:33 EST, upasaka@a... wrote: > rather than just put forward my own guesses. I would greatly appreciate it if you > and others could state what you see as the false presuppositions, giving > Suttic, Abhidhammic, or commentarial support when and if possible. (Please note: > This is just a request, not an assignment! ;-) I guess the main supposition is that of a self. -- Hugo 41317 From: cosmique1000 Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:39pm Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 > > Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not jhana > object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is they > take nibbana as their object. Dear Htoo, When one says "magga citta sees nibbana", does it mean that "that magga citta exists while seeing nibbana", or does "the act of seeing" occur after magga citta arises after the absorbtion in nibbana? The reason I am asking this question is that some theravada books say that when a practitioner "sees" or "touches" nibbana-dhatu his mind is suspended or ceased. In other words they equate nibbana and perception & feeling nirodhi. With metta, Cosmique 41318 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Hi, Hugo, Bhante, and all - In a message dated 1/25/05 5:25:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, eklektik@g... writes: > I guess the main supposition is that of a self. =================== I agree as regards #7 through #10, Hugo. In the ultimate sense, there is no being, no entity, known as the Tathagata to begin with. I suppose one might also take the same "ultimate" approach with regard to extension in space and time of "the universe" and in terms of "the body" being the same as or different from vitality of life, because in ultimate terms, like the "self" and the traditional chariot to which it is likened, universe and body are literally nonexistent. BTW, I assume that "vitality of life" is what is also called "physical life force". This is something the reality of which I have questioned in talking with Nina. I now see that it is a notion that the Buddha directly references in the Sutta Pitaka. So, perhaps it is a reality. On the other hand, perhaps it is a fact, and one that the Buddha knew, that there actually is no such thing, with its being a reality being a false presupposition involved there. It may well be that in talking to people of his period the Buddha often tolerated some of the common understandings of the time such as Mount Sumeru and life force for purposes of driving home certain points. Even today, a physicist whose area is quantum mechanics will still "speak Newtonian" for certain purposes, and to do so would not be considered lying. But with these 10 questions being laid right out for confirmation or denial, the Buddha presumably felt it necessary to give the only possible replies that didn't mislead because of existential presuppositions. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41319 From: Philip Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: Experiences at various Temples in California Hi Hugo I really enjoyed this! Thanks a lot. And welcome back. Now that my computer is working again I can track down the location of the Theravada temple in Tokyo (I think there's only one) and hopefully visit it soon and report in the same way. Hopefully posting this intention will condition actually doing it! Metta, Phil > As a result of this jouney through three different monasteries I had > much better appreciation of having an English-speaking monk living > near my home. So if you have this great fortune, go to that monk and > thank him for being and staying there, I certainly did thank my > teacher for coming from Thailand. > > In the topic of thanks, I would like to thank Ven. Vimalaramsi and > many other Bhikkhus (e.g. those at SanghaOnline) who share their > experience on-line. > > -- > Hugo 41320 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Pilgrimage India 3 b Hi Nina, N: "It does not matter that only one object at a time can be known, paññaa can understand whatever object appears to sati. This is an important principle for the development of satipatthana. I can explain again in another way if I did not make myself clear." L: I'm afraid we're going to have to say that reality is a concept because it can't be experienced in its simultaneity. That is to say the notion of many cetasikas arising at one time is a concept. Maybe we have to say consciousess or cetasika arising _with_ an object or cognizing an object is also a concept. As to the question of how do we experience cetasikas, maybe I should rephrase it and ask when do we experience cetasikas. Is it only in mind door processes? Does the cetasika have to be an object of consciousness in order to be experienced? Can we separate object and consciousness and only experience object? The root consciousnesses are consciousnesses infused with particular cetasikas. Does that same infusion of cetasika and consciousness occur when we experience vedana or sanna? If so, in what sort of citta process does this experience arise? Larry 41321 From: Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika Hi Nina, I didn't understand what the basis of being supplementary is (refering to the 4 or-whatever-states). They don't look particularly different from the other 27. Is this possibly just a stylistic flourish in the categorization? Is there any significance to the order of this list of 27? Larry 41322 From: Philip Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:03pm Subject: QRe: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 104 - Volition and Cycle of ...(quiz answers) Hello all I've just read this chapter and found it very stirring, very encouraging. Life is so fluid, so momentary. Every moment there is life and death of citta. "When there is hearing, life is a moment of hearing", for example. I only know this in theory, but again, knowing it in theory even is so liberating. I think of this quotation from Ayya Khema (I'm pretty sure - I tend to be careless about the things I jot down in my pocket notebooks. Maybe it is Nina, or Nanamoli Thera - of course, it doesn't really matter who it is.) "All is fluid - at every moment you may add to suffering or contribute to peace. There are conditions, but right attention brings more freedom, gradually." It is not possible (in line with right understanding, at least) to *decide* to contribute to peace or abstain from adding to suffering moment by moment, but we find it happening more and more, and we can be encouraged when it does. Nina, I'll take a shot at the answers, even though I've just read your comments on my answers in the previous chapter. There is no telling how long the computer will work, so I will strike while the iron is hot. Sorry if this makes too much work for you. Please take your time in getting back to me, and thanks in advance. > i How can we know that there is a next life? By examing our life now. Moment by moment, cittas are born and fall away again. My insight is not developed in a way that allows me to know this except in theory, but I can see it mroe directly in the way mental mood moments come and go. One minute I am a foul-mouthed crank, bitching about students. The next minute I find myself awash in warm feelings towards them. This is very crude, but still helps me to see how there is a different "Phil" moment by moment, a different gathering of khandas with slightly altered accumulations. Also we can know that there is a next life because it is taught by the Buddha. We learn things from the Buddha and hold them with faith long before we can confirm them through experience. > ii Which kinds of cetan?Eare a link in the Dependant > Origination? Both kusala and askula kamma. At first I wouldn't have thought that kusala kamma could be conditioned by ignorance, but because it leads to a continuation of the cycle of birth and death, it is. Kusala kamma is not accompanied by ignorance at the time it is done, but in the sense of Dependent Origination it is still conditioned by ignorance. (BTW, the other day I made a funny typo "ignorace" - quite true, the way we race through life spurred on by ignorance) > > iii Why is cetan?Ewhich accompanies magga-citta not kammaformation? I guess because there is no result, no vipaka? The fuel has burned out? To be honest, I always skip over material/discussions related to magga-cittas, stages of enlightenment etc. It seems so very far away, not a matter of relevance in this lifetime. But as with all things, it would be good to understand in theory. > iv Kusala kamma is capable of producing vipåka and thus it is > a link in the Dependant Origination. Why does it still make > sense to perform kusala kamma? Well, I tend to see kusala kamma in terms of abstaining from akusala kamma, so in this sense a moment of kusala kamma deprives unwholesome roots of being nourished. I like this phrase, maybe from Thich Nhat Hahn: "The leaf nourishes the roots." A moment of kusala kamma (the leaf) nourishes the wholesome roots and deprives the unwholesome roots of nourishment that would make their sap run thicker and stronger. So these kusala moments (as abstaining from akusala) condition more of the abstaining from akusala, and the unwholesome roots get weaker and weaker, ever so gradually. Our purpose should be eradicating akusala rather than accumulating kusala, I think. If we think about the latter, there is too much self-gratification involved. Of course there is kusala that is not abstaining from akusala, but for beginners like myself it is easier to think in terms of abstention, in my opinion. Metta, Phil 41323 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:49pm Subject: Re: Right Effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah - > > Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it > is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? > > Dan said, " It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and > the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they > are "right" or "wrong" as they arise". How was he able to "discern > clearly" about these two opposite words? Couldn the difference be > caused by a printing error? > > >============== Dear Tep, I think there is no printer's error, what made you wonder if there could be? Robertk 41324 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi RobertK - Thank you for asking, which indicates your willingness to correct my misunderstanding (if any). Why did I think about a printer's error? Because it is easier to see that both paragraphs are identical when 'wrong' is replaced by 'right'. However, it is not so easy to see that there could be two opposing viriyas (depending on whether akusala or kusala citta arises) that are exactly the same "up to that point" when the word 'wrong' appears. By the way, could the same reasoning apply to nana -- i.e. is there miccha nana that is identical in every aspect to samma-nana, except for the associated akusala/kusala citta? Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > I think there is no printer's error, what made you wonder if there > could be? > Robertk 41325 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort, wrong effort. Dear Tep, 376: wrong endeavour (also wrong concentration, etc.) because it accompanies akusala citta. Akusala cetasikas accompanying akusala citta are dealt with in Ch VI: dvaadasa akusalacittaani. We see that it may accompany lobha-mulacitta and we may not notice it, very tricky. This is what Dan wanted to stress. Without satipatthana we cannot be sure. Nina. op 25-01-2005 20:29 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...:> > Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it > is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? 41326 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:23pm Subject: Myanmar photos Hello all, For those who were on the Myanmar trip a year or so ago, and found their cameras just couldn't do justice to the beautiful country, this website was posted on Buddha-L recently. This site holds a beautiful, high resolution slide show in both color and B&W of photographs taken in Myanmar (Burma) by photographer Len Gao. There are many scenes of Buddhist pagodas and temples as well as of the everyday life of the people. http://www.mukto-mona.com/new_site/mukto-mona/Articles/len/burma1.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 41327 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:39pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, > Welcome back to the forum. ----------------- S> Thanks, but I wasn't away, only I didn't have the stamina to read more than one or two posts at a time. --------------------- > Sukin: But maybe it is us who are on say, the left, and so even > someone in the middle would appear right, no? But I think this is > because our understanding of the Buddha's Teachings is still quite > superficial and the way we consider it is mostly philosophical and often > speculative. This is so even when we have come to the conclusion that > `direct experience' is what matters as against `intellectual appreciation'. > > Tep: Since your understanding of the Teachings is still quite > superficial, then how can you understand what the "direct experience" > is? Don't you think you must first start with some "intellectual > appreciation" of the Dhamma through reading the texts? First thing first, > right? S> Yes, but I was talking about the minimal understanding which at least appreciates the difference between direct and intellectual understanding. Yet coming to this conclusion can be from quite different understandings. Some, for some reason conclude that theory (pariyatti) can and should be dropped all together at some point. Others give pariyatti a more important significance, as a particular condition, panna, which is the necessary factor for patipatti. From my perspective, pariyatti is inferior to patipatti only in that the latter is direct knowing of that which the former points to. However, any decision which says to the effect that pariyatti should be abandoned, is in my opinion, based on wrong understanding. ----------------------------------------- > Tep: I don't think the Thai monks and lay people are misled like you > said, Sukin. Most Thais understand that 'patipatti' means the practice of > the Buddha's Teachings, and it consists of dana, sila, and bhavana. In > bhavana they do both samatha and vipassana. Further, sitting and > walking meditations are included in the bhavana. S> Yet were anyone to claim being a follower of the Buddha's Teachings and did not spend time to meditate, he would be reminded about `patipatti'. ;-) How many monks and laypersons do you know who equate patipatti with a moment of satipatthana, and how many of them would not think that to practice means to sit and meditate? Besides dana and sila without sati and panna to know the moment are just that, I don't think these should be considered patipatti otherwise. Parami is parami only in so far as there is knowing the moment for what it is, otherwise it just conditions a habit. -------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: The question of `how to practice' is I think misplaced. There are > only conditioned realities, some of which point to the wrong direction > and some to the right. Appreciating the value of those dhammas that > are positive is itself, positive. And if indeed there is any appreciation of > the anatta and other conditioned nature of these same dhammas, then > other positive dhammas may arise, like samvega, patience and > courage. > > Tep: Is the act of "appreciating the value" of the "conditioned realities" > same as contemplation of the their three characteristics(ti- lakkhana) > when you are alone? S> One may consider the difference between kusala and akusala or one may think about the visesa lakkhana of various dhammas or one may think about other conditions and any other aspects of Teachings. But yes, I think it is important to keep in mind the three characteristics. But why did you ask, "when you are alone"? ----------------------------------- > Tep continued: (it doesn't matter whether you are sitting or not) Or, > is it just some kind of casual reflection on the Dhamma while going > through your daily life activities? S> I wouldn't want to make this or any other aspect of the Teachings into `daily meditations' sort of thing. Otherwise the `self' would surely come in to try to arrange things. We don't know what level of akusala will arise at any given moment, likewise what level of sati and panna. This is why it is good to listen and consider more and more, because we need all sorts of reminders. We do however need to know the difference between samatha and vipassana. We should see the importance of developing panna as taught particularly by the Buddha. Also it is important to know clearly their difference. Else we may think that they are related in a way that could condition wrong practices. ------------------------------------------- > Sukin: There is certainly no call for `sitting' nor is there any `reason' to > `deliberately look'. From the stand point of someone who believes > in "doing" something, this will be perceived as thinking, "Let be, let it > be" in a fatalistic way, but samvega and khanti are accompanied by > viriya too, no? > > Tep: How strong is your viriya during a practice? Is it strong enough to > be Right exertion (a Path factor) to develop insight knowledges? S> Why the question of strength? And why be concerned about the `insight knowledge' at this point, or for the matter at any point? Are you thinking that there is some `short cut method', one that will bypass any lack of accumulated parami? Many people view meditation practice, particularly `jhana', in this way. They think that these are special techniques taught by the Buddha and developed by later `masters' (Zen, Dzogchen etc) for the purpose of getting to enlightenment `in this very life'. I think this is all symptomatic of `attachment to self'. ---------------------------------------------- > Tep: Just read the following sutta excerpt to get the idea. Note that it doesn't have > to be "fatalistic"! > > "There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case > where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the > abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of > the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the > maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right > exertions. > > "Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines > to the east, in the same way when a monk develops & pursues the four > right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to > Unbinding. -- SN XLIX.1 S> This is an oft quoted passage on dsg. As you do now, it has always been made to support the need for any `deliberate effort'. But do we have to interpret any of this as being but about the present moment. As you will agree, this is `vohara sacca'. More comments below. -------------------------------------- > Sukin: The only real obstacle to satipatthana is miccha ditthi and one > manifestation of this is the idea of `formal sitting' or that "Panna comes > from "deliberate cultivation"". Panna does indeed require > `development', in Thai `charoen', however this has nothing to do with > what we understand by `intention' or `deliberateness'. > > Tep: Part of the above sutta quote is "monk generates desire, > endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent ...". All > these words (desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, uphold and exert > intention) points to "deliberate cultivation". S> Does it? I think they point to dhammas, all of them kusala and each performing their particular functions. The viriya here can't arise without sati and panna and none can arise without saddha. Cetana performs its very important function, but panna is the leader of a moment of satipatthana, which is what this passage is pointing to. -------------------------------------------- > Tep continued: Note that cultivation is the > same as development (look it up in a dictionary yourself). The word > deliberate implies something is done by choice, or intention, and that > its consequences are clearly understood. S> This is the "uninstructed worldling's" outlook. One of my favourite passages often quoted by Robert: << Thein Nyun in his preface to the Dhatu Kathu writes: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1. the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2. the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3. "I can perform" and 4. "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time and span of duration to carry out such functions".>> (end quote) I don't think that it is possible for a worldling to "clearly understand the consequence" of anything. ---------------------------------------------- > Tep: Further, the four right exertions above show clearly that the monk has > an intention, a purpose to develop and culminate his arisen skillful > qualities (kusala dhammas) towards Nibbana (as the goal). I think you > are talking about the one who is able to "know and see things the way > they really are", not about the mind of a worldling who has not reahed > that state. Before getting "there" you need "an act of will" with right > exertions; once there, no need for intention. S> No! I am talking about a "correct" intellectual grasp of the `way things are'. I am talking about the value of such moments, weak as they might be in terms of panna, that it sees the danger in "wrong practice" and is able to avoid it. I see this as requiring patience and courage and `self' not being drawn to "do" something. I think the difference between a Sotapanna and me is that I understand `intellectually' and quite superficially, what he understands in `experience' and deeply. However the theory must match the reality of practice. They must not conflict at any point of time. And at any time there is a `self' with an idea of "doing", I think such instances, the conflict is there and this expresses itself in silabattaparamasa. -------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep quotes: "For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act > of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of > things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things > as they actually are". [Anguttara Nikaya XI.2 Cetana Sutta] S> The kind of concentration that is developed and fits the above description is one which has been trained to grow increasingly familiar with the characteristic of paramattha dhammas, i.e. satipatthana. This is not got from concentrating on concepts, including the objects of jhana. ------------------------------------------------------ > Tep continued: By the way, how would you, a worldling, develop Panna without > intention? Intention and othe nama dhammas like exertions are like the > raft that one uses to cross a river (attainment of lokuttara panna). But > when the river is crossed, there is no need for the raft anymore. S> Even the thought about "using as rafts", is conditioned. Dhammas like, sati, panna, viriya, samadhi, saddha and so on do the functions which lead to the goal, there is no `one' standing back "using" those dhammas. However the dhammas which underlie such a thought is I think, often quite inimical to the development of panna. ------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, > associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according > to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather "panna" > in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four > factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of `self', `other' and > `activity', then even this is wrong. > > Tep: Sure, you have to have "panna" in the present moment in order to > talk with friends and understand what they are talking to you, Sukin. But > this is not the wisdom that penetrates the Noble Truths. So you are still > unable to eradicate the personality views, regardless of what you think > about your panna. S> But a moment of understanding does accumulate and develop and it has to start from some where…… ;-) Thanks Tep for spending the time to respond and giving me the opportunity to reflect some more. Metta, Sukinder 41328 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: Lately I've been reconnecting to my Japanese language study, > so am trying to read Dhamma material in Japanese. This means > Mahayana, and I am finding some interesting variations. (It > seems "emptiness" often appears as a fourth characteristic) But I > will have to make a trek to the only Theravada temple in Tokyo to > pick up something, and will ask Rob K to send along the Japanese > translation of Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" that his students are > working on. (He did before, but alas I lost it when the computer went > down in December.) ... S: Yes, Hugo shares your writing skills - I also enjoyed his account of his visits to the temples and I know yours will be memorable too:-).* Meanwhile, does this help: http://www.j-theravada.net/ Also, I think you have the English CMA. Maybe you'd be interested in the chinese copy- I think you'd follow without difficulty as the Pali is in Roman script, followed by the Chinese. (I think most Japanese readers can more or less follow...). It can be obtained FREE from this add: The PENANG Buddhist Association 168, Anson Road, 10400 Penang, Malaysia Metta, Sarah * James posted a nice pic in the photo album of himself in front of the temple he used to spend time in the States. Perhaps you,Hugo or anyone else might consider doing the same, just IF you happen to visit with your cameras, of course.... ====== 41329 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 0:14am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 108 - Concentration/ekaggataa (d) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå which has as function to focus on an object is translated as ‘one-pointedness’ or concentration. When we hear the word concentration we may believe that ekaggatå only occurs in samatha, tranquil meditation, but this is not so. It is true that when calm is developed ekaggatå also develops, but ekaggatå does not only occur in samatha. Ekaggatå accompanies every citta , although its quality is different as it arises with different cittas. Even when we are, as we call it in common language, ‘distracted’, there is ekaggatå arising with the akusala citta since it arises with every citta. It focuses on the object which is cognized at that moment. For example, when there is moha-múla-citta (citta rooted in ignorance) accompanied by uddhacca (restlessness), there is also ekaggatå cetasika accompanying that citta. There is ekaggata arising with all types of akusala citta. When we enjoy a beautiful sight or pleasant music there is ekaggatå cetasika with the lobha-múla-citta. At that moment we are absorbed in the pleasant object and enslaved to it. There is concentration when one performs ill deeds. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41330 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions ??? Dear Bhante, Howard, Hugo and all The Bhante mentions three reasons: why the Buddha did not answer the 10 questions: - Because they are indeterminable & thus rightly unanswerable. - Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. - Because they thus obstruct & destroy the only Way to Final Peace. I'm not sure all these three are mentioned in the Suttas, I thought only the third of them, is that correct? Because I've studied astrophysics, I have some problems with the first two answers about question 1-4: 1: Is the Universe Finite ? 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? I guess the main supposition for this four is that we have no information and cannot get it. These were indeterminable and thus rightly unanswerable 2500 years ago. But know we have enough information to give an answer (we think the Universe is finite, not eternal to the past and eternal to the future) So the second answer should be changed: - Because they can lead to truly endless speculative views. And the third is still correct. Metta Joop 41331 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi Tep & All, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Dear Sarah - > > Why does the word "wrong" appear in the Dhammasangani (376), but it > is "right" in [Dhs. 13]? …. S: As Nina has indicated, Dhs 13 falls under sobhana states and 376 under akusala states. A few more examples (From C.Rhys Davids’ transl of Dhammasangani): *** Part 1 ***Good*** States of Consciousness [5] What on that occasion is volition (cetanaa)? The volition, purpose, purposefulness, which is born of contact with the appropriate element of representative intellectation – this is the volition that there then is. * [7] What on that occasion is application of mind (vitakko)? The discrimination, the application, which on that occasion is the disposing, the fixing, the focusing (appanaavyappanaa), the superimposing of the mind (cetaso abhiniropanaa=aaramma.necittam….pati.t.thapeti), right disposing – this is the application that there then is. * [9] What on that occasion is zest (piiti)? The zest which on that occasion is joy, rejoicing at, rejoicing over, mirth and merriment, felicity (vitti), exultation, transport of mind (attamanataa cittassa) – this is the zest that there then is. * [11] what on that occasion is self-collectedness (cittass’ ekaggataa)? [Cy: ‘a name for concentration (samaadhi)’] The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet (samatho), the faculty and the power of concentration, right concentration – this is the self-collectedness that there then is. ======= Part 11 ***Bad*** States of Consciousness What on that occasion is….volition (cetanaa)…..? Answer as in [5] (above) * …..applied thought ((vitakko) Answer as in [7] (above), substituting ‘wrong intention (application etc)’(michaasankappo) for ‘best intention’. * …joy (piiti) Answer as in [9] (above) *……self-collectedness ((cittass’ ekaggataa)? Answer as in [11] (above), substituting ‘wrong concentration’ for ‘best concentration’. And of course, here for effort we read: * What on that occasion is the faculty of energy (viriyindriya.m)? Answer as in [13] (given in Dan’s message below), substituting ‘wrong endeavour’ for ‘best endeavour’. * In the Atthasalini (Cy to Dhammasangani) under ‘Immoral Consciousness’, we read further about (akusala) viriya: “And energy (viriya) is called the controlling faculty of energy by way of the controlling faculties, wrong endeavour by way of the Path factors, ‘strength’ of energy by way of the ‘strengths’, and support by way of the Final Pairs* –thus one state is referred to four categories.” *Dhs #1254 (pi.t.thiduka.m) about states to be put away and not put away. [Note: path (& jhana ) factors can be wholesome or unwholesome] Metta, Sarah >[Dhs. 13] "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. ========================== 41332 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > No problem, I know you have to read things from beginning. I > think you asked why I keep posting about the topic, only because > replies were directed to me. I'm a technical person and so I will > respond to what I feel are opinion pieces stated as facts. But I > guess the topic has ran it's course for me so I'll just leave it at > that. ... S: I appreciate and certainly see your keen interest in the details and persistence with these threads - I learn a lot from your questioning and responding(even if it's just to find out how little I really understand:-/). I'm sure all the points will come up again and I'll be genuinely interested to hear any more about the textual refs or details you or your abhid teacher raise on any threads. Metta, Sarah ======= 41333 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Right Effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Why did I think about a printer's error? Because it is easier to see that > both paragraphs are identical when 'wrong' is replaced by 'right'. > However, it is not so easy to see that there could be two opposing > viriyas (depending on whether akusala or kusala citta arises) that are > exactly the same "up to that point" when the word 'wrong' appears. > > By the way, could the same reasoning apply to nana -- i.e. is there > miccha nana that is identical in every aspect to samma-nana, except > for the associated akusala/kusala citta? > > > ============= Dear Tep, I checked the English translations by C.A.F. Rhys davids (Pali Text Society) and also the one by U Kyaw Khine (Dept. for the promotion of the Sasana , Yangoon). Also what I could make of the Pali all confirm that the passage Dan quoted was well translated, with no printers errors. I repeat the passage: We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." You ask about miccha nana? yes indeed micchaanaa.na.m (translated as wrong knowledge in the text below): Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness "From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; .. .. from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......" Micchatta.m, bhikkhave, aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, micchatta.m aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa? Micchaadi.t.thikassa, bhikkhave, , micchaavaayaa..... massa micchaasati pahoti, micchaasatissa micchaasamaadhi pahoti, micchaasamaadhissa micchaa~naa.na.m pahoti, micchaa~naa.nissa ‚04 micchaavimutti pahoti When I was at a temple in thailand in the 1980s I met a monk from another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor at his (famous) home temple. He had come to Thailand for a year on a sort of pilgrimage and having heard about this temple came to stay. He had been there for about 6 weeks when I arrived and I was interested to meet him because I was thinking about visiting his center in the following year. He told me that when he first met the teacher where we were, he was asked about his understanding and experiences; when it became clear that the monk thought he had experienced nibbana the teacher told him he was simply fooling himself, (self-hypnosis he called it). Anyway over the next few weeks the monk came to see that he was indeed fooling himself and he was able to let go of the idea of being sotapanna or sakadagami or whatever he had thought. I got to know him well (apart from the teacher he and another long term resident were the only people I was permitted to talk to - a very strict temple). Anyway over the next month he had some more struggles-because the teacher insisted that not only had he not not attained nibbana, but he had not reached any stage of vipassana- including the first- namarupaparichedda. Eventually he accepted that and could start again, he saw how profound it is even to have a moment when the difference between nama and rupa is seen. The monk had had miccha nana and miccha vimutti (wrong knowledge and wrong release ). Robertk - 41334 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: Jhana Sources --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jhanananda wrote: > > Jhana> GREAT WESTERN VEHICLE > In an effort to provide support for those seeking to cultivate the jhanas > the Great Western Vehicle offers two services to the jhana bound > contemplative. Sotapanna Jhanananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks) ========== Dear Sotapanna Jhanananda, Welcome back to the list, I think the last time you were posting you were going to ordain as a Theravada monk. Am I reading right that you are now the leader (president?, not sure of the word) of a new branch of Buddhism? Robertk 41335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects Hi Larry, op 26-01-2005 02:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "It does not matter that only one object at a time can be known, > paññaa can understand whatever object appears to sati. This is an > important principle for the development of satipatthana. I can explain > again in another way if I did not make myself clear." > > L: I'm afraid we're going to have to say that reality is a concept > because it can't be experienced in its simultaneity. That is to say the > notion of many cetasikas arising at one time is a concept. N: When seeing arises, there are also rupas: visible object and eyesense, all these are there at the same time. They are real. The fact that they arise at the same time does not change them into a concept. Citta never arises alone, it needs cetasikas and these condition citta. Cetasika never arises alone, it accompanies citta and other cetasikas. Whatever arises is conditioned by other dhammas. When we consider different conditions it helps to understand that several dhammas arise together. Expositir, p. 90: explains about the King and his retinue, evenso citta does not arise singly but has its attendants. Another matter is: they can be experienced or understood by pañña only one at a time. Why? Because each citta can experience only one object. Seeing can only experience visible object, not sound. L: Maybe we have to say consciousess or cetasika arising _with_ an object or cognizing an object is also a concept. N: Citta and cetasika are real and the object experienced can be a reality or a concept. The object conditions citta and cetasikas by being their object, by way of object-condition. > L: As to the question of how do we experience cetasikas, maybe I should > rephrase it and ask when do we experience cetasikas. Is it only in mind > door processes? N: Yes, it is nama and nama is experienced only through the mind-door. Rupa can be experienced through a sense-door and then through the mind-door. L: Does the cetasika have to be an object of consciousness > in order to be experienced? N: Yes, no other way. L:Can we separate object and consciousness and only experience object? N: We, or rather, citta can experience another citta, and that is then the object at that moment. We better make an example. Seeing experiences visible object, and I think that you ask: can we separate the two and only experience visible object? When sati sampajañña arises in a following process it can understand one at a time: seeing or visible object. Just the characteristic that appears, and there is no need to think of the processes. No thinking about *when*, in which process, is necessary, that only complicate matters. L: The root consciousnesses are consciousnesses > infused with particular cetasikas. Does that same infusion of cetasika > and consciousness occur when we experience vedana or sanna? If so, in > what sort of citta process does this experience arise? N: I do not quite understand your question. Experience can be understood in different ways. The experience of vedana can be with ignorance and aversion: we just notice unpleasant feeling, or have aversion about it. Or it can be with pañña: it can be realized as only a conditioned dhamma, not mine. Roots pertain to our life now. It is hard to experience the characteristics of cetasikas and differentiate them from citta, only insight can. So long as the first stage of insight has not been reached, the characteristics of cetasikas cannot be known precisely. You realize that you only know them by thinking and that is why you believe that they are only concepts. Is that not so? Nina. 41336 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions, Bhante Samahita. Hi Howard, op 26-01-2005 00:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > BTW, I assume that "vitality of life" is what is also called "physical > life force". This is something the reality of which I have questioned in > talking with Nina. I now see that it is a notion that the Buddha directly > references in the Sutta Pitaka. So, perhaps it is a reality. N: It is a subtle rupa and these are difficult to understand for all of us. Hardness we all understand, but not the subtle rupas. Yes, in the M.N. 43, Mahaavedallasutta there is a reference: the five sense organs depend on vitality, aayusankhaara. The Co explains elsewhere the term aayu as jiivitindriya. But we cannot expect the mentioning of all rupas in the Suttas. As to nutrition, this is well explained in the sammaa-ditthisutta: four kinds of nutrition and one is physical nutrition. They are ahaara-paccaya. H:On the other hand, perhaps it is a fact, and one that the Buddha knew, that there actually is no such thing, with its being a reality being a false presupposition involved there. It may well be that in talking to people of his period the Buddha often tolerated some of the common understandings of the time such as Mount Sumeru and life force for purposes of driving home certain points. N: When reading the above-mentioned suttas I do not think so. We have to study what points the Buddha wanted to explain in which sutta. In the Mahaavedallasutta the difference between someone in the stopping of perception and feeling and a dead person is shown. A corpse does not have life faculty as I said before. In the sammaditthisutta ahaara-paccaya is shown. The rupa nutrition that pervades the body, arising and falling away, conditions other rupas, it maintains them. As to the ten points mentioned by Bhante Samahita, I had not seen them before and I am also curious to know where they are explained. Nina. 41337 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] QRe:Cetasikas' study corner 104 - Volition and Cycle of ...(quiz answers) Hello Phil, op 26-01-2005 03:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: Every moment there is > life and death of citta. "When there is hearing, life is a moment of > hearing", for example. I only know this in theory, but again, knowing > it in theory even is so liberating. N: It reminds us not to get drowned in the ocean of concepts, concepts of our life we are so involved in. PH: Nina, I'll take a shot at the answers... I will strike while the > iron is hot. N: I will also strike while the iron is hot. Ph: > i How can we know that there is a next life? > > By examing our life now. Moment by moment, cittas are born and fall > away again. My insight is not developed in a way that allows me to > know this except in theory, but I can see it more directly in the way > mental mood moments come and go. ... > Also we can know that there is a next life because it is taught by > the Buddha. We learn things from the Buddha and hold them with faith > long before we can confirm them through experience. N: The first moment of life did not arise without conditions, it was conditioned by the past life. There is birth and death of citta at each moment and evenso the last citta will be succeeded by the next citta, the first citta of a following life. Only through insight will this be realized more clearly. Now we still may have moments of doubt or fear. > Ph: ii Which kinds of cetanaa are a link in the Dependant Origination? > > Both kusala and akusala kamma. At first I wouldn't have thought that > kusala kamma could be conditioned by ignorance, but because it leads > to a continuation of the cycle of birth and death, it is. Kusala > kamma is not accompanied by ignorance at the time it is done, but in > the sense of Dependent Origination it is still conditioned by > ignorance. N: There is the latent tendency of ignorance also when kusala citta arises. Ph: iii Why is cetanaa which accompanies magga-citta not kammaformation? > I guess because there is no result, no vipaka? The fuel has burned > out? To be honest, I always skip over material/discussions related to > magga-cittas, stages of enlightenment etc. It seems so very far away, > not a matter of relevance in this lifetime. But as with all things, > it would be good to understand in theory. N: Magga-citta leads to liberation from the cycle. Cetana in kusala citta and akusala citta leads to heaping up, like a wall built up by bricks. And magga-citta is like knocking down what was heaped up (Expositor, II, p 290), demolishing decease and rebirth. It is good to have some understanding of it, it helps us to see what the goal is. And the way. Magga-citta has a result: the fruition arising in the same process. But it is different from all other kinds of vipaaka. Magga-citta does not produce rebirth. Ph: iv Kusala kamma is capable of producing vipåka and thus it is >> a link in the Dependant Origination. Why does it still make >> sense to perform kusala kamma? > > Well, I tend to see kusala kamma in terms of abstaining from akusala > kamma, so in this sense a moment of kusala kamma deprives unwholesome > roots of being nourished..... > So these kusala moments (as abstaining from akusala) condition more > of the abstaining from akusala, and the unwholesome roots get weaker > and weaker, ever so gradually. Our purpose should be eradicating > akusala rather than accumulating kusala, I think. If we think about > the latter, there is too much self-gratification involved. N: This is very good. Any kind of kusala, not only abstention, helps to wear out defilements, if we see this as our purpose. If we do not want any gain for ourselves. Then kusala is purer, it is a perfection. Dana helps to wear out stinginess and egoism, for example. Appreciation of others' kusala is dana. We can do that wholeheartedly with gladness. Thank you for bringing up all these points, Nina. 41338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika, the list. Hi Larry, Excellent remarks, I am glad you mention these things. op 26-01-2005 03:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I didn't understand what the basis of being supplementary is (refering > to the 4 or-whatever-states). They don't look particularly different > from the other 27. Is this possibly just a stylistic flourish in the > categorization? Is there any significance to the order of this list of > 27? N: Abhidhamma Studies Ch IV, Ven. Nyanaponika helped me here. If it is on line perhaps Howard could help. The Expositor (p. 178) mentions someone who says: an unintelligent list, no connection or order. The Co refutes this. It is not a mere formal grouping, or a rigid classification. When taking up the Dhammasangani we shall see that several cetasikas are listed more than once under different aspects, such as understanding as faculty, or as power. The list ends with: sampajañña (sati and pañña), samatha, vipassanaa, paggaaha (grasp, which is the faculty of energy), avikkhepa (balance, self-collectedness, another word for ekaggata cetasika, one-pointedness or concentration). Thus, it is not a mere summing up, but it points to development, it is a dynamic list. Therefore, it does not need to be exhaustive. Ven. Nyanaponika states : If we understand this, it will help with our study of the Abhidhamma, also with other topics. These lists have to do with life, with development. They point to the goal. The Pentad of phassa (phassa-pañcaka), mentioned in the Expositor: these are the first five of the list of the Dhammasangani: contact, feeling, saññaa, volition and citta. These five are mentioned together with the or-whatever-dhammas in the Anupada sutta, after the jhana-factors, where Sariputta penetrates with insight the jhana-citta and cetasikas. Ven. Nyanaponika: Citta, feeling and saññaa are each a separate khandha, as we have seen. He states about the aggregate of mental formations: Thus, phassa and cetanaa. He explains that this points to the inseparableness of the four nama-khandhas. The Visuddhimagga, therefore, begins the list of sankharakkhandha with contact, and then volition, and after that the other cetasikas. All this illustrates the meaning of the list of the Dhammasangani; it points to the goal of our study, the development of pañña in order to attain liberation. This is inspiring. Does this answer your Q as to the order of the list of 27 the Visuddhimagga gives? If not, I can add more. There are 52 cetasikas in all, and we have to subtract the fourteen akusala cetasikas. Also feeling and sañña are not mentioned here, since the Vis. explains only formations. Thus, thirtysix are left. 27+4 supplementaries+ 5 inconstants=36. Nina. P.S. One remark about contact and feeling. Ven. Nyanaponika refers to Expositor p. 143, that explains that contact is mentioned first in the order of teaching. One could also say: there is feeling and contact, etc. There is no sequence in them, they arise together. While they arise together they condition one another. 41339 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: Experiences at various Temples in California --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Hugo wrote: > > And guess what! it was exactly what I was looking for! > > The essay is titled "Citta is Buddha" and I think is exactly the > answer to my question (What attains Nibbana?), at least I felt my > question answered. I will elaborate on this in another thread. > > > As a result of this jouney through three different monasteries I had > much better appreciation of having an English-speaking monk living > near my home. So if you have this great fortune, go to that monk and > thank him for being and staying there, I certainly did thank my > teacher for coming from Thailand. > > In the topic of thanks, I would like to thank Ven. Vimalaramsi and > many other Bhikkhus (e.g. those at SanghaOnline) who share their > experience on-line. > > -- > Hugo Hello Hugo, all, Perhaps I'm missing something here ... If your question was "What attains Nibbana'?" ... then I don't think a correct answer is "Citta is Buddha". Would you care to post a little more from the book the monk gave you to help us understand what the connection is? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 41340 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cosmique1000" wrote: > > Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not jhana > > object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is they > > take nibbana as their object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Title : Dialogue 2 Topics : Related topics raised by Sarah [and may be others] Now, the topic is magga citta and nibbana Participants: Sarah, Htoo, Cosmique (3rd participant now ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique wrote: Dear Htoo, When one says "magga citta sees nibbana", does it mean that "that magga citta exists while seeing nibbana", ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Exactly. It does 4 jobs. Seeing nibbana is just one of 4 jobs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: or does "the act of seeing" occur after magga citta arises after the absorbtion in nibbana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not after. It is at the same time. Absorption arises at the same time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: The reason I am asking this question is that some theravada books say that when a practitioner "sees" or "touches" nibbana-dhatu his mind is suspended or ceased. In other words they equate nibbana and perception & feeling nirodhi. With metta, Cosmique ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think they are referring to nirodha-samapatti or cessation- attainment. If it is nirodha-samapatti or cessation-attainment it is yes. If not nirodha-samapatti then it is not like that. Because there are other dhammas like 36 cetasikas. In nirodha-samapatti there is no sankhara dhamma except kammaja-rupa or kamma-derived materials and aharaja-rupa or nutrment-derived materials. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41341 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 10 Indeterminable Questions, Bhante Samahita. Hi, Nina - Thanks very much for the relevant feedback. In a message dated 1/26/05 5:46:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 26-01-2005 00:04 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >BTW, I assume that "vitality of life" is what is also called "physical > >life force". This is something the reality of which I have questioned in > >talking with Nina. I now see that it is a notion that the Buddha directly > >references in the Sutta Pitaka. So, perhaps it is a reality. > N: It is a subtle rupa and these are difficult to understand for all of us. > Hardness we all understand, but not the subtle rupas. Yes, in the M.N. 43, > Mahaavedallasutta there is a reference: the five sense organs depend on > vitality, aayusankhaara. The Co explains elsewhere the term aayu as > jiivitindriya. But we cannot expect the mentioning of all rupas in the > Suttas. > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41342 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (244) Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding niriya bhumi or hell realms all description would seem mythical or unreal. But divine eyes can see these hell realms. And there were different time and period that niriya bhumi or hell realms can be directly see by ordinary people. This portion can be skipped if do not want to read. Even though hell realm is talked as a single bhumi actually there are many hell places. In terms of suffering there are 8 different degrees or 8 different places or 8 different bhumis of niraya. They are 1.sinjiva niraya bhumi, 2.kalasutta niraya bhumi, 3.sanghaata niraya bhumi, 4.taapana niriya bhumi, 5.maha-taapana niriya bhumi, 6.yoyuva niraya bhumi, 7.maha-yoyuva niraya bhumi, and 8.avici niraya bhumi. Sometimes avici bhumi is referred to as maha- avici for stress or emphasis. There are 5 small hell stations in each face of east, west, south, and north of each of these 8 bhumis. So there are 20 substations or 20 small hell stations in each of 8 niraya bhumis and there are a total of 160 substations. There are 8 major stations or 8 main stations. All together there are 168 hell stations. There are beings who are responsible to handle hell beings. For example they arrange changing of hell rooms or hell stations. They punish hell beings with immeasurable suffering-giving punishment. There are also hell-dogs. They are gigantic dogs. There are razor-trees, razor-mountains and the handlers there have hell beings climb those razor-trees and if hell beings do not climb they punish them with whips or something like that. Sometimes these handlers have hell beings stay in burning ash ans sometimes they make hell beings stay in foul-smelling excreta pits. Avici is the worst of all. Avici is made up of 'a' and 'vici'. Vici means stoppage or interval when sufferings stop for a while. But in avici there is no such interval and hell beings in avici have to suffer from uninterrupted and continuous suffering. There is little chance to do kusala in niraya bhumi so called it is niraya. Ni means 'no' and 'rammati' means 'enjoy'. Niraya means 'nothing enjoyable exists'. It is said there is little chance. At a time there is a chance to see other realms and they see human realm, deva realms and their old kusalas are remembered and when their punishments are enough then they have to leave niraya bhumis. There is a king who rules the whole matter of niraya bhumis and he is known as Yamaraaja. Whenever a being arrives at hell stations he or she is asked what sort of kusala he or she has done and what sort of akusala he or she has done. If kusalas are many and he or she remembers the kusalas and when they were done with pure mind becuase of this they MAY be reborn in sugati bhumis again when they have to leave niraya bhumi immediately. This is something like some Islemic belief. The Buddha preached that the lifespan of hell beings are not fixed like devas and brahmas. Beings with unfixed lifespan are 1. hell beings 2. animals 3. hungry ghosts 4. demons 5. human beings Human lifespans are changing over time and era. It is said that human beings may live as short as 10 years to as long 100,000 years. Some may think that these are unthinkable and unimaginable. But world cycles are not permanent. When this current earth planet is totally destroyed by any reason then all the data currently recorded with respect to this planet earth will no more be valid and right. For example 24 hours a day will not be right. In actual term or in stricter sense 24 hours is not equal to a day. There are extra minutes each day and these minutes are corrected in each leap year. When this earth is destroyed another planet which might be the ground for beings may have 20 hours a day or 100 hours a day or anything. So all 4 woeful planes and human realms do not have fixed lifespan. Hell beings, petas or hungry ghosts, asurakaya or demons, devas, brahmas, human beings of the early earth (planet of dwelling) are born with fully matured forms and it is called opaapatika patisandhi. In niraya bhumis as soon as a being is there he or she is actually reborn there. If he or she has to leave soon then that means he or she dies and has to be reborn in other realm. As long as we are free of 12 akusala with respect to citta-uppada or arising of citta or free of 10 akusala with respect actions we will be free of rebirth in niraya bhumi or hell realm. 10 akusala kamma patha dhammas are 1. killing 2. stealing 3. sexual intrusion (having sex with married/nominated partner) 4. telling lies 5. telling divisive speech 6. telling hurting harsh speech 7. telling unfruitful tale-bearing speech 8. wishing to own other people's properties 9. wishing desturction of other people's lives, properties, fame etc 10.having wrong belief These 10 are kamma patha dhamma and as soon as these are done the cetana that arises in each javana citta serves as kamma and these kamma can give rise to effect as 1.patisandhi 2.pavatti Patisandhi is rebirth. This rebirth is apaya patisandhi or rebirth in 4 woeful planes. That vipaka citta is ahetula akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta. Pavatti means 'arising at dvara' or it is events that arise during the life time except patisandhi kala or rebirth time. These effects are 1. seeing- or eye-consciousness of bad things (cakku-vinnana citta) 2. hearing (sota-vinnana citta) 3. smelling (ghana-vinnana citta) 4. tasting (jivha-vinnana citta) 5. touching (kaya-vinnana citta) 6. receiving consciousness (sampaticchana citta) 7. investigating consciousness(santirana citta) Santirana citta does the job of linking and causes rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence. In pavatti kala or during life time santirana citta does the jobs of 1. bhavanga kicca or life-continuing function 2. cuti kicca or life-ending function 3. santirana kicca or investigating function 4. tadarammana kicca or retaining function We have done many akusalas in our past including this life. This is no doubt. But we do not need to worry. Because worrying adds further akusala. The most important thing is that 'not to be reborn in 4 woeful planes of existence'. If akusalas are not anantaariya kammas they are deferrable and even avoidable as unhappy-rebirth. Anantaariya kammas are akusala kammas that cannot be remediable by other means except being punished in avici niraya bhumi. Even The Buddha could not help His brother-in-law Devadattha who did many anantaariya kamma. Anantaariya kammas are 1. killing own father 2. killing own mother 3. killing arahats 4. division of Sangha 5. bruising to The Live Buddha May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41343 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Experiences at various Temples in California Hi Hugo, thank you for your interesting report. op 25-01-2005 16:21 schreef Hugo op eklektik@g...: > It seems as if my ego had some kind of > boost by thinking "hey now I am a Buddhist, Buddhism is the Truth, all > the Buddhists can see the truth" and now it felt betrayed. N: A very wise conclusion. Kh Sujin sometimes asks: who is a Buddhist. A label does not mean much. Do we practise what he taught, at this very moment, being mindful of nama and rupa? Yes, it is citta that attains nibbana. Good you were searching for the answer. You described that very well. Nina. 41344 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Experiences at various Temples in California --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Hugo, thank you for your interesting report. > > op 25-01-2005 16:21 schreef Hugo op eklektik@g...: > > > It seems as if my ego had some kind of > > boost by thinking "hey now I am a Buddhist, Buddhism is the Truth, all > > the Buddhists can see the truth" and now it felt betrayed. > N: A very wise conclusion. Kh Sujin sometimes asks: who is a Buddhist. A > label does not mean much. Do we practise what he taught, at this very > moment, being mindful of nama and rupa? > Yes, it is citta that attains nibbana. Good you were searching for the > answer. You described that very well. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Hugo and All, When I analysed Hugo's question 'What attains Nibbana?', I can see 3 representative words and their connection. 1. what 2. attains 3. nibbana 'What' is the answer that Hugo was looking for and let us assume it has not been answered. 'Attains' is an activity word for the subject 'what'. What may be animate or inanimate and it may be a single thing or many things. There are words like 'attain' 'contain' 'detain' 'obtain' 'retain' 'sustain' etc. All these indicte 'what the subject does'. So 'attains' in Hugo's question indicates 'gains' 'reaches' 'comes to' 'accomplishes' 'achieves'. 'Nibbana' is I think 'Hugo seems to be saying what all Buddhists refer to as nibbana. When this question is followed closely there will be 2 answers. 1. conventional answer 2. ultimate answer (which might be non-sense for some) For onventional answer, the question should have been 'who attain nibbana?' or 'who attains nibbana'. Answer 1: He who attained arahatta magga nana attains nibbana when he dies. Those who attained arahatta magga nana attain nibbana when they die. The marginal point that should be considered is 'the end of cuti citta of arahat or arahats'. When this marginal point is taken into consideration there is no one that attains nibbana even in conventional sense because everything ceases. That cessation is nibbana. Answer 2: There is no person at all. There is no other thing except 'citta' 'cetasika' 'rupa'. As each is a separate entity, no one attains anything. Citta attains citta, cetasika attains cetasika, rupa attains rupa. So nibbana will attain nibbana or nibbana will be attained by nibbana. As nibbana is not related to sankhara dhamma and sankhata dhamma nibbana is nothing to do with citta, cetasika, and rupa. When we are at this side we will still be dealing with citta, cetasika, and rupa. When we are at the other side we will not be dealing with anything. What is called 'to shift from this side to the other side'? It is called magga or Path. When we are talking nibbana at this side it is just interaction of dhamma and indicating way to attain nibbana. But when actual nibbana comes there is nothing except nibbana. So there is no khandha. There is no citta, no cetasika, no rupa and there is no one and there is not a thing. So 'what attains nibbana?' question has to be answered as answer 2: None attains nibbana. Or no one attains nibbana. I think 'conventional answer should be taken in this respect. Because the answer 2 is hard to believe but it is understood when dhamma is understood. If attainment of nibbana is thought at the time of arising of magga citta Nina is right. But if nibbana is anupadisesa nibbana no one or 'no thing attains nibbana'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41345 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:38am Subject: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 Dear Dhamma Friends, At another site which is run by Khanti Khema called 'dhammasukha' Khema wrote an article. It is nice. I replied her regarding her article. Here I post most of my replies there. Htoo wrote at dhammasukha: There is a forest. In that forest there are many many living things including animals and plants. Regarding animals there are many different kinds of animal. All the same there are many different kinds of plant in that forest. a)First we have to survey the forest and its geographical characteristics. Then choose a define site. b)Tall and large trees have to be cut down first. When this has been done there is a rough view that there will soon be a nice place to dwell. c)There are some short trees and bushes. These are also to be cleared away. After finishing this there is a good view that it is no more a forest at that site but it looks more like the dwelling place for mankind. d)There are still some low-lying grass and similar small plants and their seedling in the ground. All these have to be cleared away and then constructions are ready. Without survey we will never know the forest and then we will never know how to clear the forest. Our survey is to study Dhamma as 'pariyatti'. There are 3 saasanaa or 3 kinds of Buddha-teachings. They are pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. While theory or 'pariyatti' spells with 'pari', the other teachings spell with 'pati'. Pari or parikamma means 'preparation'. So theoretical learning is just preparation for the practice. Other 2 teachings spell with 'pati'. Pati or patti means 'achievement' 'come to' 'reach'. There are 2 kinds of reaching. The first is 'pati' + 'pati' or 'patipatti'. This means practically reaching that is 'reaching on practice'. The third kind is 'pativedha'. This is practical and penetration through all dhamma. Without preparation we cannot build the site. If the preparation is not enough then there are possibilities that disasters might happen. Example is if the site choose is close to oceans or close to volcanoes or anything like that. Example is dhamma is leaving out 'Abhidhamma' and just studying selected suttas. When practical terms come, this starts with cutting down of large trees and tall trees. This is like taking 5 precepts. People who are keeping 5 precepts are like noble ones but inside their mind there may still be bad things. This is like some trees and many kinds of bushes. These have to be cleared away by jhanas. When there are no more trees, small trees, bushes it is quite clear that the site is quite ready for dwelling. But when closely check there are different kinds of grass and weeds and their seedlings and some remaining roots of potential trees. If the site is to be free of destrction then all the remaining potentials have to be cleared away. This is like vipassana-panna. This is just a simile and this does not means jhana and panna are separate or together. Regarding clearing large trees, as KK said it is said that some keep precepts only in retreat period. This is wrong. There are many different approaches. But I would say that 'without survey' the constructions will not be successful. Even if successful, it will be destroyed at some point because of lack of proper survey. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41346 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 Dear Dhamma Friends, The conversation between Khanti Khema and Htoo Naing continued at dhammasukha site. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo wrote: Dear KK, Thanks for your reply. You wrote: Dear Htoo, I understand how strongly you support the position of Abhidhamma being taught in isolation first from the practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are not my exact words. This is your interpretation of my whole message. Did I say that 'abhidhamma being taught in isolation first from the practice'? I did not say so. This is your own remark and your own interpretation and I can see that you drew such a conclusion. But your conclusion does not represent my message. When you re-read my message you will clearly see what I meant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: However the three parts were meant to be taught as woven together and not separated and reading through the suttas one can relate to this conclusion. Also, I do not mean by reading a couple of suttas either. I am speaking of deep, methodical studying of hundreds of suttas related to the path and the approach to successful meditation. The separation of the parts of the path practices came in modern times, meaning from about 1,000 years ago. I am referring to: There are 3 saasanaa or 3 kinds of Buddha-teachings. > They are > pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see what you were referring to. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: One of the unique things about the Buddha was that he was not a confirmist to his modern day patterns of teaching. His way was a departure and a new middle way. Listeningn to Dhamma alone is not going to do it in most casses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you say 'in most cases' it may be right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Meditation in an isolated unfed sense will not either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the point that I have been discussing frequently. Simile here is sea-going practice. Meditation from the start without any knowledge is like going to sea without knowledge of sea and he will face with deadly danger, no doubt. Studying books without meditation is like someone who never goes to sea at all. [quote: Sir William Osler's phenomena of diseases and sea- going.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK wrote: Reading and studying and thinking will not do it either. As I have said before, it is only in embracing the connectedness or interwoven nature of the teachings that they will produce the end product. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But you are longing for end-product as far as I can see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: This is part of what has happened today. The teaching have become disconnected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Where happens? Which part of the world? Who disconnects the teachings? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: I think a part of the reason this has occured is that there has a been a loss of teachers who can teach in the way the original teachers taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is your thought. This is your conclusion. This is your interpretation of situation. If you were being trained by an arahat I bet you would not be saying 'a loss of teachers'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: One cannot argue that there are many ways through which this could have taken place over time. If one part of the teachings was preserved better than another at apoint following disater, war,or famine, then that part would have come to the forefront for preservation and become dominent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are referring to some specific teaching [materials rather than teachings or contents of teaching]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: This simile you give us is a good example of the deviation in some ways. If I did all that you say to prepare my building site, I would not be exercising the muscles I needed in order to build my house (sit in meditation). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Similes are not the exact copies of referenced situations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Having trained so hard with thinking, my mind would be so full of information and it would be more difficult to let go of everything, stop thinking, and to learn to meditate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I would say it is totally wrong. Why? Because you have already said that you did not mean to study a couple of suttas but 100 or so suttas have to be learned. This is quite contrary to what you said here just above 'Having trained so hard with thinking, my mind would be so full....' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: You have seen how long people spend on a topic and how they love to go on about it. One thing leading to another concept and another and another.... When does it stop? At what pint do you turn it off and watch and discover for yourself? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hmmmm. This is a bit ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: As we say in here, when do you get down to the nitty gritty part? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is that? You are not saying in childish manner, I believe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: I will say one thing, it's a great excuse not to sit still. :-) I had one person tell me that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Like you, I would feel shocked to hear such thing 'not to sit still'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: There was a modern day teacher, pretty well known, who went to study in Asia I think in the late 70's and he went to find a meditation teacher. The teacher realized right off that he was operating totally intellectually and was reading tremendous amounts of information and studying and thinking a whole lot. After a couple of days, he told him that he was not to read at all. The guy was mortified/shocked! He had been consumed with the information! Then the teacher told him that he could spend 1/2 as much time reading that he spent time sitting in meditation. This was very difficult. He had a very hard time with letting go of all Abhidhamma immense complexities and getting back to the simple base of no thinking for good meditation. He had to let it go totally. He had a lot of trouble with this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As soon as this part of your message approached I thought that this is no more 'you' even though it may still be you. Because the tone changes and number flaws appear fewer and fewer. This is a point that made me remember 'learning how to play a harp in 2 people' 'milking of goats' and many other things. The idea behind these 'milking goats' and 'learning harp-playing' sounds near-right. But in actual term it is wrong and it is totally wrong to assume in such way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: I read in one post on the DSG site that one well respected teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not advocate meditation as a part of this path at all! There is no question that this is a departure from the intended balanced approach of the three parts of training. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: The thing is that Abhidhamma originally meant "Higher Learning" and, in my opinion, can be valuable to the meditation student who has an established successful practice and is secure is releasing all thoughts first. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thought releasing? Someone thought that it is hard to do so. That is why he used a simile that zero-knowledge student will cost £50 while 2-year-learned student will cost £500. Because $450 is for erasing the existing knowledge. This is wrong in dhamma setting. But if already-packed knowledge were maccha-nana or wrong things this may be used right here. But if already-existing knowledge is right one then the whole simile does not work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Once the student can see the rpocess clearly at the bare simple level, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I believe this is you, KK. :-) Because --- see! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: then if they feel they want to stretch their minds to go into more complexities about it. I do not believe it was used in the beginning stages of teaching as a preparatory method for the practice and may even be detrimental by filling the mind with so much information. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is utterly wrong. If so why are you studying more than 100 suttas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: It is so full of thinking, sorting, and that sort of thing. However, different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Puccheyya - should ask. Cinteyya - should think out. Suteyya - should learn. Dhareyya - should bear or practise. Are you destroying part of Path? If so how will the bridge work when it is destroyed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK continued: Preparatory work for simultaneously done with the Meditation practice involves the purification of mind and body. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When there is no understanding of 'what impurities are' how one will stay in purity or stay with 'purification of mind and body'? I do not think so one can [without understanding]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KK wrote: y carrying out the parts of the 8-fold path in a relationship to the practice, one comes well down the road to understadning the purpose of the purification and attaing results which are fully applicable into life. Discussing the 8-fold path in this way is for another conversation I think. If the practice of the path is leading the practitioner to harmonious practice of meditation and good balance or harmony in their lives then it is working correclty. I enjoyed your comments and hope we continue to share approaches and interpretations. Much Metta. KK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, this time your messages have only a few typos. Otherwise they are perfect. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the end of the current conversation. If there are more conversations then I would share with you for studying Dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41347 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage India 3 c On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:56:28 +0100, nina wrote: > I told Acharn Sujin that I was worried about Lodewijk¹s health > and she answered that worry is only nåma. I found this answer like a cold > shower, a bitter medicine, but it is the truth. The following excerpt (or transcript) was taken from a Dharma talk present by Venerable Ajahn Brahmavamso during the Global Buddhist Conference 2000 in Singapore, which was held on the 3rd and 4th June 2000. That is why when someone comes to a Buddhist monk with a problem, they don't usually get too much sympathy, "Oh, you poor thing!". I would say "What are you doing about it?". See what you can do to make it a worthwhile lifestyle. Excerpt taken from the last paragraph at: http://www.geocities.com/heartland_sg/homosexnqueerness.htm Greetings, -- Hugo 41348 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:11am Subject: Re: Q. Experience of objects Hi Nina (and Larry), If I may butt into this conversation: Nina: Citta never arises alone, it needs cetasikas and these condition citta. Cetasika never arises alone, it accompanies citta and other cetasikas. Whatever arises is conditioned by other dhammas. When we consider different conditions it helps to understand that several dhammas arise together. Expositir, p. 90: explains about the King and his retinue, evenso citta does not arise singly but has its attendants. James: This is precisely why I have questioned the existence of cetasikas. If cetasikas never arise alone, how does one know that they exist? In your opinion, why does the Abhidhamma contain this kind of classification? The Abhidhamma could simply list the various types of cittas, which would consider their different characteristics, and not bother with creating this type of separate category. What is the point? Am I making myself clear? For some reason, I doubt that I am. Okay, to get more technical, the introduction to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha by Bhikkhu Bodhi states: "One is the employment, in the main books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, of a matika -- a matrix or schedule of categories -- as the blueprint for the entire edifice. This matrix, which comes at the very beginning of the Dhammasangani as a preface to the Abhidhamma Pitaka proper, consists of 122 modes of classification special to the Abhidhamma method. Of these, twenty-two are triads (tika), sets of three terms into which the fundamental dhammas are to be distributed; the remaining hundred are dyads (duka), sets of two terms used as a basis for classification.[3] The matrix serves as a kind of grid for sorting out the complex manifold of experience in accordance with principles determined by the purposes of the Dhamma. For example, the triads include such sets as states that are wholesome, unwholesome, indeterminate; states associated with pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neutral feeling; states that are kamma results, productive of kamma results, neither; and so forth. The dyads include such sets as states that are roots, not roots; states concomitant with roots, not so concomitant; states that are conditioned, unconditioned; states that are mundane, supramundane; and so forth." James: Now, it seems to me reasonable to distinguish cittas based on the triads and dyads as described above because these are classifications where are clearly separate. In other words, a pleasant feeling isn't ever going to also be a painful feeling (at the same time) and a root condition isn't ever going to be a non- root condition (at the same time), etc. However, cittas and cetasikas occur at the same time. What is there to differentiate between them? Why aren't they seen as just different types of cittas? The introduction that I just quoted has this to say about cittas and cetasikas: "A second distinguishing feature of the Abhidhamma is the dissection of the apparently continuous stream of consciousness into a succession of discrete evanescent cognitive events called cittas, each a complex unity involving consciousness itself, as the basic awareness of an object, and a constellation of mental factors (cetasika) exercising more specialized tasks in the act of cognition." James: I'm not entirely sure what a `constellation of mental factors' is supposed to mean. This description, to use an analogy, reminds me of mixtures of things: like ice cream with nuts-candy- fruit, or soup with vegetables-meat-pasta, etc. However, in each of these cases, the various ingredients can be separated. We can say "Here is the ice cream and here are the nuts" or "Here is the soup base and here are the vegetables". But can the same thing be said for cittas and cetasikas? Can one say "This is the citta and this is the cetasika"? If they can never be separated, I don't see how. What really exists are various types of cittas and the additional category of cetasika seems to be for organization's sake rather than an actual dhamma. What do you think? (Beyond a restatement of the fundamentals?) This has perplexed me since I first read about cetasikas. Metta, James Ps. If you tell me that cetasikas can only be differentiated from cittas by `insight', I would like you to explain precisely what you mean. Otherwise, you might as well just say "It's MAGIC"! ;-)) 41349 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:05am Subject: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 24 conditions. There are 24 paccaya. There are 24 conditioning conditions. Among them sahajata paccaya or co-nascence condition is an interesting condition. There are cause and effect in Dhamma. In sahajata paccaya or conascence condition these cause and effect arise together. 'Sahajata paccayo 'ti - cattaaro khandhaa aruupino annamannam sahajata paccayena paccayo'. Saha means 'together' 'in parallel with' 'at the same time' 'coming together'. Jati or jata means 'arising' or 'coming up'. Sahajata means 'coming together up'. Paccaya means 'support' 'condition' 'supported condition' 'cause' 'the cause'. So sahajata paccaya means 'the condition that come together with the result'. 'ti or iti means 'like this' 'as such' . So 'sahajata paccayo' are '' cattaaro khan--- -- -- -- paccyo''. Cattaaro means 'these 4 dhammas'. Khandhaa means 'aggregates'. Aruupino means 'non-material'. So cattaaro-khandhaa-aruupino means 'these four non-material aggregates are'. Annamannam is made up of 'anna' and 'annam'. This means 'each other'. That is one is to another and that another is to the former one and this is 'each other'. It can be said they are acting 'one aonther'. These 4 khandhas serves as 'annamanna sahajata paccaya'. This means that one serves as paccaya dhamma to other three khandhas. Again each of other 3 khandhas also serves as paccaya dhamma to the other three khandhas. To understand this it is essential to understand 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates, without knowledge of these 5 khandhas sahajata paccaya especially annamanna sahajata paccaya will not be understood. Five khandhas or panca-kkhandhas are 1. rupa-kkhandha or material aggregates 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling-aggregates 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception-aggregates 4. sankhara-kkhandha or formation-aggregates 5. vinnana-kkhandha or consciousness-aggregates It is easy to write in simple English. But they will need further explanations. Material aggregates will not mean anything to non- Buddhists if it is left unexplained. In the realm of nama-rupa interaction rupa also have a clear role. Without rupa, cittas and cetasikas cannot arise with a few exception when in arupa brahma realms. In the setting of nama-rupa interaction, we need to take an example. Let us take an example of an event of seeing. You see something or someone sees something. There happen arising and falling away of dhammas. They are vanna or colour of different shapes and different forms serving as 'rupaarammana' or 'the object for eye-consciousness or seeing-consciousness or cakkhu-vinnana citta. That vanna is a rupa and it is rupa-kkhandha or material aggregate. In the same process there has to arise cakkhu pasada or cakkhuppasada or eye-sense-base. It is another rupa or material and it is also material aggregate or rupakkhandha. While vanno or colour is serving as 'aarammana' or object, cakkhu pasada rupa is serving as dvara or door for the whole series of cittas. Cakkhu pasada rupa also serves as a vatthu or ground for related cittas and cetasikas. Through out the process there are 14 vithi cittas. 1. pancadvaravajjana citta has 'upekkha vedana' or indifferent feeling. 2. pancavinnana citta or cakkhuvinnana citta here has 'upekkha vedana' or indifferent feeling. 3. sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness also has upekkha vedana or indifferent feeling. 4. santirana citta or investigating consciousness may have upekkha vedana or indifferent feeling or may have somanassa vedana or mental joy. There are 3 santirana cittas or 3 investigating consciousness. One is upekkha santirana of akusala vipaka and another is upekkha santirana of kusala vipaka and still there is a third santirana and it is kusala vipaka and it has somanassa vedana or mental pleasure. 5. votthapana citta or determining consciousness which is manodvara- vajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. It has upekkha vedana or indifferent feeling. This 5th vithi citta is followed by 7 successive javana cittas. 6 to 12. javana cittas or mental impulsive consciousness. As this example is pancadvara vithi vara javana cittas will be those of pancadvara vithi vara. There are 29 javana cittas at 5 sense doors. These 29 javana cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 1 hasituppada citta, 8 mahakusala cittas, and 8 mahakiriya cittas. Among them 4 lobha cittas are somanassa cittas or consciousness with mental pleasure, 1 hasituppada citta is a somanassa citta, 4 mahakusala cittas are somanassa cittas and 4 mahakiriya cittas are somanassa citta. So there will be 13 somanassa kama javana cittas. 2 dosa cittas are domanassa cittas and they have mental displeasure. All other remaining cittas in 29 cittas are upekkha cittas and they are 4 upekkha lobha cittas, 2 upekkha moha cittas, 4 upekkha mahakusala cittas and 4 upekkha mahakiriya cittas. So there are 13 somanassa cittas ( 4 lobha, 1 hasituppada, 4 mahakusala, 4 mahakiriya ), 2 domanassa cittas ( 2 dosa mula cittas, and 14 upekkha cittas ( 4 lobha, 2 moha, 4 mahakusala, 4 mahakiriya). The vedana cetasika in these cittas are vedana-kkhandha or feeling- aggregates. After 7th javana citta there follow 2 successive tadarammana citta or 2 retention-consciousness. These 2 cittas just retain the existing 'arammana' until the 2nd tadarammana citta passes away. These tadarammana cittas are 11 cittas ( 3 santirana cittas and 8 mahavipaka cittas ). Again they do have vedana or feeling. One santirana is somanassa citta and another 2 santirana cittas are upekkha cittas. 4 of mahavipaka cittas are somanassa cittas and other 4 are upekkha cittas. So there are 5 somanassa cittas and 6 upekkha cittas in 11 tadarammana cittas. The vedana in each of these 11 cittas are vedana-kkhandha or feeling-aggregates. Again each citta in above example has sanna or perception and they are called sanna-kkhandha or perception-aggregate. There are 52 cetasikas in total in terms of character. One is vedana and another is sanna each of which has separate khandha and there left 50 cetasikas. In the above example vithi vara there are 14 vithi cittas. After exclusion of vedana and sanna what left is sankhara-kkhandha or formation-aggregates. Formations are like viriya or effort, manasikara or attention, dosa or aversion etc etc and they are forming their specific roles and so they are called formation or sankhara-kkhandha. All 14 vithi cittas here in this example are vinnana or consciousness and they all are known as vinnana-kkhandha or consciousness-aggregates. After exclusion of rupa-kkhandha all other 4 khandhas known as nama- kkhandhas serve as 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' to each other. That is vinnana-kkhandha or consciousness-aggregates serve as conascence condition for vedana-kkhandha or feeling-aggregates. Vinnana are here in above example 14 vithi cittas also serve as conascence condition for sanna-kkhandha or perception-aggregate. Each of 14 cittas has sanna or perception. This perception is conditioned by vinnana-kkhandha as conascence condition. By the same token vinnana-kkhandha or these 14 cittas also serve as conascence condition for their associated cetasikas except vedana and sanna who are separate aggregates. As each khandha serves to each other to other 3 khandhas this kind of conditional relationship is known as 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality-conascence condition'. Patthana Dhamma page 64 and page 65 are now ready to serve. This whole message is from page 65 and there are extra words after the passage 'After exclusion of rupa- kkhandha -- -- to each other'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41350 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Experiences at various Temples in California On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:14:49 -0000, Philip wrote: > > I really enjoyed this! Thanks a lot. And welcome back. > Now that my computer is working again I can track down the > location of the Theravada temple in Tokyo (I think there's only one) > and hopefully visit it soon and report in the same way. Hopefully > posting this intention will condition actually doing it! The Phil I refered to in my posting is you, BTW. :-) I will be waiting for your report, hopefully that will help you actually write the report, consider it a friendly Dhamma imposition. :-) -- Hugo 41351 From: nina Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 0:11pm Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 d Pilgrimage India 3 d Through satipatthåna we shall have more understanding of life and death. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (V, Mahåvagga, Book III, Ch 2, § 3, Cunda) that the novice Cunda was in attendance on Såriputta who passed finally away. Cunda and Ånanda came to see the Buddha and told him about Såriputta¹s passing away. Ånanda said that he was distressed by his death. The Buddha asked him whether when Såriputta passed away he took with him the constituents of virtue, concentration, wisdom, release and release by knowing and seeing. Ånanda answered that he did not and spoke the following words: ³But he was to me an adviser, one who was well grounded. He was an instructor, one who could arouse, incite and gladden. He was unwearied in teaching the Norm [Dhamma]. He was the patron of those who lived the righteous life along with him. We bear in mind that essence of the Norm, that patronage of the Norm possessed by the venerable Såriputta, lord.² ³Have I not aforetime declared to you this, Ånanda, - how in all things that are dear and delightful there is the nature of diversity, the nature of separation, the nature of otherness? How is it possible, Ånanda, in the case of what is born, what is become, what is compounded, what is transitory,- how is it possible to have one¹s wish fulfilled: Oh! may it not perish? Nay, such a things cannot be.² We then read that the Buddha exhorted Ånanda to be an island to himself, a refuge to himself, taking no outer refuge, but to take the Dhamma as his refuge in developing satipatthåna. Through satipatthåna we can gradually learn that in the ultimate sense there is not a person who exists, only fleeting phenomena, nåma and rúpa. Acharn Sujin asked me: before becoming Nina, what was there? There was a previous life but we do not remember this now. From the moment of our birth we lead our present life, we are ³this person², and we experience happiness and suffering. However, in the ultimate sense, no person exists, neither in this life nor in the preceding life. There are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Each citta that arises falls away immediately to be succeeded by the next citta. This can be seen as momentary death and birth. Thus, when it is time to depart we do not lose anything, it is the same as the departure at the end of our former life. In the next life there will be again the experience of different objects, nåma and rúpa, which arise and fall away. It is fortunate that in this life we still have the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. **** Nina 41352 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inferential Analysis is Also Important On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:52:05 EST, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Although it is important be to aware of actual states as they arise, > transform, and fall...change; it is also an important part of the Buddha's teaching to > be able to analyze things inferentially. Perhaps every bit as important. [...] > Based on this, I could go around saying -- the Buddha taught imagination as a > way to become enlightened. And I'd have grounds to support that claim! > > The fact of the matter is, the Buddha taught these methods, as well as > directly knowing the changing nature of actual experience, as methods to overcome > attachment. They are both important. The Buddha taught the Middle Way, so for those who are walking on the left he told them "go to the right", for those who are walking on the right he told them "go to the left". Therefore we can't take any single technique/method and say that is the only way because if we just look at one single technique/method, we might end up at any of the sides of the way and not the middle. The key part is to develop wisdom so we can find out if, when, how and for how much time any technique/method is useful. For those who don't think and keep behaving like animals just satisfying the desires generated by the kilesas, he said "think!", for those who think too much and get lost in the ocean of mental fermentations he said "stop thinking!", which one then is the right answer.....both or none. Wisdom will tell you when and how to think. Greetings, -- Hugo 41353 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil Hello Sarah, On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:11:12 +0000 (GMT), sarah abbott wrote: > * James posted a nice pic in the photo album of himself in front of the > temple he used to spend time in the States. Perhaps you,Hugo or anyone > else might consider doing the same, just IF you happen to visit with your > cameras, of course.... I haven't visited any temple with a camera yet, but there are pictures of the monastery I visit available at: http://mambo.dhammasala.us/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=105&catid=2 The website is still under construction though. On the topics of photos, I went to a ceremony (requisites offering) where one of the monks took pictures of us :-) The monks sitting on their little platform just before the ceremony starts and all the laypeople sitting on the ground, then one of the monks pulls out a camera and takes a couple of pictures. It was funny, this is the first event I have seen where the "panelists" take photos of the "audience". Greetings, -- Hugo 41354 From: cosmique Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 ----In nirodha-samapatti there is no sankhara dhamma except kammaja-rupa or kamma-derived materials and aharaja-rupa or nutrment-derived materials.---- Dear Htoo, Thanks for your answer. It is rather clear on the one hand, on the other hand I am even more confused now. I thought the highest goal in Buddha-dhamma was to reach or realize the state of nibbana. And I believed nirodha and nibbana were the same state. 1. Then what is the purpose of nirodhi-sammapati? 2. Is it a higher achievement than nibbana? 3. Is magga citta present in parinibbana or after arahant’s death? The question 3 is posed for the following reason: if after the arahant’s death there is no more any citta left, therefore this state is equivalent to the state of nirodhi-samapatti where there is no citta either. And in reverse order, if nibbana seen by magga-citta is not the same as nirodhi-samapatti, then parinibbana after the arahant’s death is not just mindless state. Thanks, With mahametta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. --------------------------------- Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail 41355 From: Hugo Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Experiences at various Temples in California Hello Christine, On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:02:23 -0000, Christine Forsyth wrote: > Perhaps I'm missing something here ... > If your question was "What attains Nibbana'?" ... then I don't > think a correct answer is "Citta is Buddha". If you read Buddha as "Gotama Sidhatta", it doesn't look like a correct answer, but read on. Actually once I returned home I found out that the booklet is one of the many teachings of Luang Pu Dun and also found out that my teacher had translated the same teaching and something more: Source: http://dhammasala.org/theheart.htm And my teacher added this translation note: With regard to the talks and anecdotes here, the first, "Citta is Buddha" is by far the best known. It is this talk that forms the title of this book, "The Heart is Knowing". The word "Heart" is not a totally satisfactory rendering of the Pali word "Citta" but it does accord with much of the same meanings and senses as used in English. For those who prefer, the word "Mind" may also be used as a translation for the word "Citta". Through most of the translation I have usually used the Pali word "Citta" without translating it.. The word "Buddha" in this talk does not refer to the Lord Gotama Buddha but means "knowing", "understood", "Enlightenment". It is important to understand this before reading that particular talk. I found my answer, exactly as Htoo described it!!! (I liked the analysis) I agree with you Htoo, except maybe for answer #1: Htoo: He who attained arahatta magga nana attains nibbana when he dies. I think you can attain Nibbana when "you are alive". I didn't have much time to ask my teacher but I asked if first you get Enlightenment and then you attain Nibbana, trying to imply that you get Enlightened when you are alive and you "get" Nibbana once you die. He said that Enlightenment and Nibbana are the same, therefore I conclude that you can attain Nibbana while alive. On the other hand if Nibbana is the cessation of everything, and "you are alive" means that 5 khandas are still walking around, that seems to imply that you attain Nibbana only ofter you die. I have scanned the booklet and made a PDF file out of it, if you want it, let me know, or you can read it on-line from the translation written by my teacher. Greetings, -- Hugo 41356 From: seisen_au Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Dear Htoo and All, Is rupa and citta/cetasika ever considered annamanna sahajata paccaya? I'm thinking of examples such as the heart base and citta or the eye base and seeing consciousness? Thanks Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are 24 conditions. There are 24 paccaya. There are 24 > conditioning conditions. Among them sahajata paccaya or co-nascence > condition is an interesting condition. > > There are cause and effect in Dhamma. In sahajata paccaya or > conascence condition these cause and effect arise together. 41357 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects Hi Nina, You said we experience a cetasika only when it is an object of consciousness and only in a mind door process. Would that be mind-door adverting consciousness adverting to a cetasika that is the experience of a cetasika? Wouldn't this be two experiences, adverting and the cetasika? Also you brought up the case of sati identifying rupa as distinct from 5 door consciousness. How would this work? Say there is a 5-door process with visible data as object. Then the mind door process begins with adverting to visible data, followed by sati javana cittas identifying this as visible data. However, there doesn't seem to be an experience of visible data separate from consciousness. At best there is only an understanding of visible data as separate from consciousness. I don't see how this understanding can be anything other than a reasoned understanding, though words may not be necessary. N: "So long as the first stage of insight has not been reached, the characteristics of cetasikas cannot be known precisely. You realize that you only know them by thinking and that is why you believe that they are only concepts. Is that not so?" L: Yes and no. We all experience cetasikas but it is difficult to fit that experience into citta process. Also, I don't see how anyone, even the Buddha, can know through direct experience that 2 dhammas arise at the same time. Surely this also is a matter of reasoned analysis. Larry ps: What is desired is as close as what is rejected. What is rejected is as far as what is desired. [Just something I was thinking about today.] L. 41358 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, 133 and Tiika, the list. Hi Nina, Thanks for the exensive reply regarding matika. I can see I'm going to have to get a Dhammasangani. Larry 41359 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Vism.XIV,134 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 134. Herein, (i) it touches (phusati), thus it is 'contact' (phassa). This has the characteristic of touching. Its function is the act of impingement. It is manifested as concurrence. Its proximate cause is an objective field that has come into focus. [As to its characteristic], although this is an immaterial state, yet it occurs with respect to an object as the act of touching too.60 And [as to its function], although it is not adherent on any one side61 as eye-cum-visible-object and ear-cum-sound are, yet it is what makes consciousness and the object impinge. It is said to be manifested as concurrence because it has been described as its own action, namely, the concurrence of the three [(cf. M.i,111), that is, eye, visible object, and eye-consciousness]. And it is said to have as its proximate cause an objective field that has come into focus because it arises automatically through the appropriate [conscious] reaction and with a faculty when the objective field is presented. But it should be regarded as like a hideless cow (S.ii,99) because it is the habitat62 of feeling. ---------------------- Note 60. ' "As the act of touching too": by this he shows that this is its individual essence even though it is immaterial. And the characteristic of touching is obvious in its occurrence in such instances as, say, the watering of the mouth in one who sees another tasting vinegar or a ripe mango, the bodily shuddering in a sympathetic person who sees another being hurt, the trembling of the knees in a timid man standing on the ground when he sees a man precariously balanced on a high tree branch, the loss of power of the legs in one who sees something terrifying such as pisaaca (goblin)' (Pm. 484-85). Note 61. For 'non-adherent' see par. 46. ' "On any one side" means not sticking (asa'msilissamaana). It is only the impact without adherence that contact shares with visible data and sound, not the objective field. Just as, though eye and ear are non-adherent respectively to visible data and sounds still they have the word "touched" used of them, so too it can be said of contact's touching and impinging on the object. Contact's impingement is the actual concurrence (meeting) of consciousness and object' (Pm. 485). Note 62. Adhi.t.thaana--'habitat' (or site or location or foundation): this meaning not given in P.T.S. Dict. 41360 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:58pm Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Kel, We agreed that conceit could not help us to practise satipatthana. Nor can any other akusala mental activity. That's why I can't see deliberate practices as having any effectiveness. Moreover, as Sukin points out, belief in a deliberate practice reinforces wrong view - it denies the laws of conditionality. ----------------------------- Kel: > No but understanding the convential truth is what leads to higher understanding of the absolute truth. As an example, one of my teachers keep telling us to observe the mind. He said once it's really pure, all the associated intense vedana will fall away. I thought my mind looks pure, and repeated observation wasn't doing anything to vedana. > ------------------------------ I don't necessarily disagree with what you say here. Sati and panna can observe the mind, but there is no deliberate (conventionally real) practice by which we can make it happen. Citta is too fast. ----------------- Kel: > Then one day I was sweeping the floor of dhamma hall and it looked clean. But after a few strokes, there was a pile of dirt. The more I keep sweeping the dirt keeps accumulating and I understood what the teacher meant then. It just looks clean to my untrained eye but repeated observing is same as repeated sweeping and hopefully slowly cleaning the dirt in the mind. I'm just saying for me that's how I understood the teaching with a convential example. ------------------ Thanks, I like that example. I think it is about 'understanding' rather than about 'deliberate practice.' ------------- KH: > > You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question [of anatta]' but we > Kel: You can give a river a name and it exists. There's a definite path it takes. But ask if it's the SAME river then the answer is no as its always in a flux. If a snapshot can be taken in time and space of the river and ask if it exists then it most certainly does. -------------- If, by 'snapshot of the river' you are alluding to the presently arising five khandhas, then I concede you are not sidestepping the question. :-) If, however, you mean a [still] image of a living being - with arms, legs, eyes and ears - then, no, that would not be the reality taught by the Buddha. There is no being with the power to touch, see and hear. --------------------------------- KH: > > there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be willed to arise > > Kel: > There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be predestined. ------------------------------------ Fair enough, but let's not sidestep anatta by seeing the equivalent of a self in cetana: it is just a conditioned dhamma. --------------- KH: > > but the teaching is to know the present reality. It is not to have concern for the future. > > Kel:> Because knowing the present moment leads to no attachment of a particular future. Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything? -------------------- Good question! Why do anything when there is no self to reap the rewards? The Dhamma is not about doing anything: it is about understanding the present moment. The present moment is all that exists, so it is all there is to understand. ------------- KH: > > Putting off will never condition > satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. > > Kel: >The point is when akusala is at full power, it's like trying to stop a moving train. You'll just crushed instead. You need to stop it in the beginning when the momentum is low or before it even starts. A proper practice will prevent it from gaining full power. Once it's there, only time will dissipate it. > ------------- If that is what the Buddha taught then, I agree, that is what we should understand. But is it? I think there is a lot of confusion between vipassana and jhana. Jhana requires the meditator to concentrate on the same concept for many consecutive cittas. So the meditator needs a quiet remote place with no distractions. However, in vipassana practice there is no need to concentrate on concepts even for a moment. (Except, perhaps, for a tiny, elite group of disciples who could take jhana citta as an object of vipassana.) Regards, Ken H 41363 From: Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Another Attempt Hi all - Twice I have tried to forward to the list Bahnte's reply that was intended for DSG bu inadvertently mailed directly to me. The forwarding didn't work. So this time I'm doing a cut & paste! ;-) Bhante's post is copied at the end. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) **************************************** Subj: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable Questions. Date: 1/26/05 1:50:37 AM Eastern Standard Time From: bhikkhu_ekamuni@y... To: upasaka@a... Sent from the Internet (Details) Howard asks: > I think it would be very useful if it were possible to discern in > each inderterminable case what those false presuppositions are! OK here some of them come: > > 1: Is the Universe Finite ? > > 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? A) Let's say you by mind could travel beyond the speed of light out there in the mighty space. Whether you hit or did not hit any sort of boundary: What could you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further out 'behind this' percieved boundary! B) As the 'ALL' and thereby also 'The Universe' really is nothing but a constructed perception & as such a kind of 'Internal' phenomena; What can you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further 'internal' hidden inside, behind & beyound the mere imaginary appearance of this perception! > > 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? However long one wait to see by direct experience that the Universe is Eternal, one can never be absolutely sure that it will not end & stop even tomorrow!!! BUM FINALE hehehe ;-) > > 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? If one perceive an 'End' like a 'BIG IMPLOSION', how can one ever know for sure that the Universe will not begin Again by a new 'BIG BANG... That is actually the case. A 'Harmonica' of expansion-implosion...;-) > > 5: Is the Vitality of Life the same as the Body ? > > 6: Is the Vitality of Life different from the Body ? Since any observation, designation, definition, reference and way of speaking of phenomenon 'Vitality of Life' is connected to, and associated with phenomenon 'physical body' or more broader the 'Kaya=Group=5Khandas' one cannot ever make any separate observation of 'Vitality of Life' independent of & disassociated from 'Body' or 'Khandha Group'. This makes the distinction whether these phenomena are separate yet connected or a 'unified one' really impossible... > > 7: Do a Well-Gone-One exist after Death ? > > 8: Do a Well-Gone-One not exist after Death ? > > 9: Do a Well-Gone-One both exist ¬ exist after Death ? > > 10: Do a Well-Gone-One neither exist nor not exist after Death ? All these suppose that there even BEFORE DEATH Actually Existed an 'unchanging same' & thus 'definable entity' behind the mere 'Name' "Well-Gone-One".. However, neither inside nor outside nor in between these 5 drifting clusters of clinging, continously changing have there ever existed, will there ever exist, nor do there exist now anything else that a transient flux, that never is fit to be designated 'Self' or anything else except for mere conventional labeling... For all 10 questions please check out Buddha's explanation in the 24th Ditthi-Samyutta SN III [202ff]. The grouped sayings on Views. 41364 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG & Howard, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In this one, you missed my point above (which was easy to do). I am not > saying concepts are non-existant. I am not taking about concepts that > haven't > arisen. I am imparting that viewpoint to those in this group who do not > believe > that (arisen) concepts are real. I am asking, from their point of view, > how > something that isn't real can affect things that are real. How can the > principle of Dependent Origination account for that? …. S: I don’t think I missed your point. Howard replied to exactly the same comments of mine with the following which I thought was very well said indeed. Do you have any comments on it? H: >I agree with you here, Sarah, definitely. But I also think there is more. Actually I addressed this issue briefly in a post to someone though I don't recall who that someone was. Obviously, what does not exist does not serve as condition. In fact, to say that it does or does not is, in each case, without meaning, because there *is* no "it". However, there *is* a huge collection of experiential realities(paramattha dhammas) that serves as the basis for projecting the concept, and those dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas upon which we impute further concepts. So the reality is of dhammas conditioning dhammas, but our thinking process views it differently in a way that usually obscures the reality, but does not in the case of an arahant.< S: Please know that when I am referring to realities, I’m also referring to (paramattha) dhammas too. Some people don’t like to see the Pali used. TG:> You mention thinking, reflection, marking, wise conderation; are the > powers > that actually affect things. These states you mention are dependent on > concepts (with possible minimal exceptions). …. S: I wouldn’t say so. Concepts can never act as dependence (nissaya) condition, but they are ‘projected’ as Howard said. It is the thinking or projection that does the affecting, not the ‘purple elephant’ or ‘ story about the tree’ itself, other than serving as objects of such projections. … TG:>What is thought...other > than mental > activity engaging a concept? How can a "reality" be supported by a > "non-reality"? This is the point I was making. In my view, your > comments support that > viewpoint (without supporting it). ;-) … S: Ah, but you are the one talking about being ‘supported by a “non-reality” ‘, not us;-). I’m actually delighted to read Howard’s comments above, because I know we’ve discussed this topic at length before. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, glad you had no probs so far from the blizzards. We think it’s cold here when the temp sinks to near 10 C!! ===== 41365 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi again, Howard, Now here, it’s back to our usual kind of dialogue without such full agreement;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I have found my prior (partial) addressing of this matter, and it > > happens to have been in a post to Jon! What I wrote there was "We begin > in the > midst of a conventional, story-world of experience and action. It is > with regard > to such a "world", and "actions" in it that the Buddha instructed his > listeners within the suttas. …. S: Hmmm … >There he taught them to conventionally > engage in > conventional actions. …. S: Here I’d like to quote back KenH;-). As I understand it, the Buddha taught the Truth, the 4NT in various ways. What’s right and what’s wrong, what leads to what result and so on. As we’ve all discussed many times, he used conventional speech (as we all do), but there was no misunderstanding of the message about (paramattha) dhammas for the wise. He stressed that the knowing of the ‘all’ are just these paramattha dhammas – the khandhas (and nibbana). …. >The realities that underlie such actions are what > have > consequences, and those actual consequences are yet other realities. But > we worldlings > do not operate at the level of awareness of realities. We operate at the > conventional, conceptual level." …. S: From my point of view, you’re half right here. Yes, there are only realities. Whether we see them for what they are or not, there are only realities. As we read in one of those suttas in the AN anthology, whether a Buddha comes along or not, the Truths remain the same. In other words, just because we ignorantly take concepts for being truths or think our conventional world is the real one, does not alter the facts about what is really being experienced right now. Ignorance is one such reality to be known. Yes, we use concepts and ‘operate at the conventional, conceptual level’, but such ‘operating’ can be with or without wrong view about dhammas at any given moment. Clearly, for the ariyans, when talking about purple elephants or trees in the garden, there would have been no illusion that these were anything but conceptual terms used for expression. Metta, Sarah p.s old post of yours on Poetyr, Negations and Dukkha (Dec21), you said H:‘ “All conditioned dhammas are impermanent” does not say that conditioned dhammas change. It says they do not remain – no conditioned dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change ever mean?’ S:I understand dhammas are changing all the time. As soon as they are arising, they’re changing and falling away. When we read about the 3 phasesof cittas (which Htoo often writes about), each phase conditions the next phase. Like dominoes, as soon as they’re set in motion, they have to change and fall away. So they change and do not remain. With regard to the speed of citta in another post of yours to me on the same date (see how behind I get!), I believe the speed is both in reference to the speed of rupas (as you suggest) and also as a general comment that nothing changes as fast as the mind or citta regardless. This would even be true in arupa jhana states or realms! ============== 41366 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG (Howard & All), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Sarah: I think, however, that he taught that the only > way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see > things as they are. > > TG: I disagree with the word "only". First of all, he did not > actually say > this. … S: Ok, he taught just or only the 4 Noble Truths, do you agree? I think we read this in many suttas. Also, no other truths: “ ‘I shall set aside this truth of suffering and make known another truth of suffering’- that is not possible’ “etc And then on ‘seeing things as they are’ (yathaa bhuuta): SN 35:1 “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be *seen as it really is*(yathaa bhuuta) with correct wisdom…..etc” And then of course are the suttas about the ‘all’. "‘Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all’ –that would be a mere empty boast…." Etc. SN35:27 (5) ‘Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. “And what , bhikkhus, is the all….? “The eye and forms and eye-consciousness…..etc” So it is only by understanding the realities (dhammas) or khandhas (dukkha – in brief the 5 khandhas) , the cause of suffering and the path leading to cessation, that attachment can ever be eradicated. …. >So the statement is an interpretation...which is fine, but needs > to be > clear. Second of all, "seeing things the way they are" has more to it > than > analyzing states as "realities." … S: Seeing things as they are (yathaabhuuta) always has to do with the development of satipatthana or vipassana, not with analysis which I’ve never suggested. What are dhammas (realities)? The dhatus, the khandhas, nama and rupa as included in the foundations of mindfulness. SN52:16 (6) “Further, friends, it is because I have developed and cultivated these four establishments of mindfulness that I understand as it really is the way leading everywhere.” …. (I much prefer calling things > aggregates and > elements, as the Buddha did; rather than realities. "Realities" is > another > one of those interpretations. …. S: No problem. To be honest, I forget who likes ‘aggregates and elements’, who likes ‘paramattha dhammas’ and who likes ‘realities’. When I use realities, it is a translation of (paramattha) dhammas or of aggregates and elements. No difference, except ‘aggregates’ never includes nibbana. I'll try to avoid 'realities' if I'm writing directly to you, but no promises;-). I’m in a quoting mood, as Phil would say: SN35:244 (7) “Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu understands as they really are (yathaa bhuuta) the origin and the passing away of all states (dhammas) whatsoever that entail suffering, then sensual pleasures have been seen by him in such a way that as he looks at them sensual desire, sensual affection, sensual infatuation, and sensual passion do not lie latent within him in regard to sensual pleasures:..” S: Is my statement at the outset , “that he taught that the only way attachment can ever be eradicated is by gradually learning to see things[i.e dhammas] as they are.” still so very off-track in your view? … >If you keep interpreting interpretations > enough, > pretty soon your chanting Nam Yo Ho Ren Gei Kyo in order to get a new > car...and thinking its the Buddha's teaching.) ;-) … S: Just don’t mention cars and baby steps;-) …. > (It amazes me that so many in this group want such perfect accuracy that > they > insist on using Pali terms to get that "perfection"...and yet they use > terms > such as "realities" or claim the Buddha taught "realities" which is > utterly > unaccurate. Its just an interpretation. Back to the action...) … S: This is the action, TG!! Now BB translated dhammas in the passage above as ‘states’. Do you prefer ‘states’ for namas and rupas? We can leave dhammas as dhammas, but the difficulty is when someone like yourself comes along and suggests that concepts also share the 3 characteristics which is where I see the inaccuracy coming in:-/ …. > In my mind, "seeing the way things are" is also of crucial importance. > But I > don't believe seeing things as "namas" and "rupas" is seeing things the > way > they really are. …. S: ‘a bhikkhu understands as they really are……all states whatsoever that entail suffering’ etc as quoted above. ‘All states’ are namas and rupas or khandhas if you prefer. Seeing them as they are is seeing them as such, i.e clearly distinguishing between seeing and visible object, between hearing and sound and so on. …. >That dividing mentality in 52 mental factors, or > consciousness into 17 processes, is seeing things the way they really > are. I think these > are just a particular set of models in order to develop the ability of > insight. .. S: Yes., I agree at last! We’re not talking about analysis but about direct understanding of what we’ve read or heard at a pretty basic level. …. >Personally I think these are good models, but they become a > hindrance when > given too much credence. I think seeing things the way they really are > is > "intuitive realization of impermanence...with the knowledge of suffering > and > no-self linked with it." What is impermanent? ... Anything conditioned. …. S: I’ve already agreed with some of your other comments in other posts on this. The credence is not the problem, but if there is an idea that analysis in itself will lead to nibbana, there is a problem. However, when we say ‘anything conditioned’, we have to be a lot more precise. You say all dreams and fantasies and any concepts are conditioned. Please give me your sutta quotes for this. …. > TG: He stressed these things, and he stressed other things as well. > Make > no mistake, I believe mindfulness of states as they arise, transform, > and cease > is of utmost importance! But I see it as one part of the process and I > don't > look to discount the other ways the Buddha taught in lieu of it. … S: What other ways did the Buddha teach in lieu of satipatthana? …. > TG: I would suspect that if someone became enlightened by rubbing a > cloth, > that both a conceptual understanding and a direct realization of > impermanence > were accomplished and a realization of the Path to purity. … S: Yes, no problems here. … > TG: Concepts arise due to conditions, they are impermanent, they are > suffering if attached to, and they are not-self. Yep, they got it > covered. …. S: Looking forward to discussing any sutta on this. …. S: You quoted from this: > (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 540, The > Greater Discourse to Malunkyaputta, Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta, #64) I only saw the passage you quoted as supporting what I had said about ‘rupa or vedana or any other of the khandhas are sinsubstantial or impermanent etc’ and not as being reified as you suggested. … > Whatever can be experienced has arisen. Even a fantasy is is an arisen > fantasy. It arises, tranforms, and ceases. … S: Conventionally speaking only. Ask Howard;-) … >The Buddha does > not talk > about "realities." He talks about conditions. …. S: We read throughout the teachings about dhammas (realities) to be known just as they are. It is these same dhammas that are conditioned. There cannot be any understanding of conditions without understanding the dhammas in the first place. …. >Because he talks about > conditions, he did not obscess over what was real and what wasn't real. > He did not > worry about the "existence or non-existence" of concepts. … S: He taught about eyebase, seeing, visible object, contact and so on. He taught about the khandhas, the ayatanas (wholes sections in SN devoted just to these), the dhatus, the objects of mindfulness. What is not included in these groupings is the ‘non-existent’ world of concepts. We don’t need to hear a Buddha to learn about concepts, passing dreams and so on. This post is already long and I haven’t even got to your other ‘piece’. Hopefully later, unless I can encourage others to respond to it in the meantime. I think these are important points to discuss and look further to hearing any more of your or other ideas. Metta, Sarah ======= 41367 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:01am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 109 - Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå which accompanies akusala citta is also called ‘micchåsamådhi’, wrong concentration. Ekaggatå which accompanies kusala citta is also called ‘sammå-samådhi’, right concentration. Samådhi is another word for ekaggatå cetasika. Although wrong concentration and right concentration are both ekaggatå cetasika their qualities are different. Sammå-samådhi focuses on the object in the right way, the wholesome way. There are many levels of right concentration. The Atthasåliní (1, Part IV, Chapter 1. 118, 119) states about ekaggatå, and here it deals actually with sammå-samådhi (1): * "This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has nonscattering (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as characteristic, the welding together of the coexistent states as function, as water kneads bath-powder into a paste, and peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation. For it has been said: ‘He who is concentrated knows, sees according to the truth.’ It is distinguished by having ease (sukha) (usually) as proximate cause (2). Like the steadiness of a lamp in the absence of wind, so should steadfastness of mind be understood." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 139) gives a similar definition, except that it mentions only peace of mind as manifestation, not knowledge. *** 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §11. 2) Pleasant feeling, sukha, is a jhåna-factor arising only in four stages of rúpa-jhåna. It supports samådhi in focusing on the meditation subject. In the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna pleasant feeling is abandoned and indifferent feeling accompanies the jhåna-citta instead. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41368 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Cosmique and Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "cosmique1000" > wrote: > > > > Magga citta sees nibbana. That is its object is nibbana. Not > jhana > > > object. So also are 3 phala cittas or 2 phala cittas. That is > they > > > take nibbana as their object. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Title : Dialogue 2 > Topics : Related topics raised by Sarah [and may be others] > Now, the topic is magga citta and nibbana > Participants: Sarah, Htoo, Cosmique (3rd participant now ) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Hopefully, others will join in our discussions too!! Cosmique, welcome to the group - I'm very impressed that you're following our discussions (sometimes I get lost;-)). You're asking great questions too. If you feel inclined anytime, pls let us know a little more about your Theravada background, where you live etc. Htoo - I plan to get back on our dialogues and have more to start, but it'll be tomorrow or next week (I hope!!). thanks for your very detailed considerations. Metta, Sarah ======== 41369 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > Dear Nina - > > I am glad to read your message # 41165 which is a detailed > explanation of things that were unclear to me in the past. The passage > from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me > another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What > is the title of this publication? ... S:I think this is the message of Nina’s below in full which you were asking where the extract was from. You may also like to review some of the earlier discussion in the thread with Lars which started at about #20248.Please raise any points, comments or questions about anything you find of special interest. You can find the booklet Nina refers to below on: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/, or http://www.zolag.co.uk/, Metta, Sarah p.s if you put ‘lars’ or ‘adhi’ in the first search engine here, it will take you to the 20,000s and then to the relevant posts too. http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ ============================ 20398 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: sila, samadhi, panna, no 2. Dear Lars, Now follows more from my "In Asoka's Footsteps". Note also what I wrote about citta, concentration and higher concentration, adhicitta. You will see in the Co (to which we return later on) that with this kind of siila the lokuttara samaadhi is reached. Thus, it really is far-reaching. Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Potthila and Yuganaddha Hi Tep, Nina & All, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Yuganaddha sutta, coupled, A.n. IV, 170: we had many posts on that, > pulling > out texts, also the Path of Discrimination. It is very clear. .... > N: The fourth way is insight, vipassana imperfections are mentioned. The > Path of Discrimination also sees it from the aspect of lokuttara citta, > the > concentration and calm with lokuttara citta. We have to investigate this > point when we read about calm and insight. There is the highest calm > with > phalacitta, since defilements are eradicated. See archives for this > sutta. ... S: From Useful Posts -Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN 1V.170 3905, 7821, 19388, 27712, 30594, 31565 ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 41371 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: Fwd: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable Questions. Dear Howard, Nina, Bhante and all I have found the "10 indeterminable question" or "10 unanswerable questions" three times in the Suttas: (1) In the 'Connected Discourses with Vacchagotta' (SN ch XII, 33; page 1031 in BB's translation) called "Because of Not Knowing" Here the Buddha answered: "It is, Vaccha, because of not knowing form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation that those various speculative views arise in the world: 'The world is eternal' …" (2) In MN 63, Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, The answer of the Buddha is long, first about the wrong expectations of Mulankyaputta and then (in the translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu): "And why are they [the 10 question] undisclosed by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undisclosed by me. "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. These arguments of the Buddha are in my opinion a bit the second and most the third but not the first of the three, the Bhante mentioned: - Because they are indeterminable &thus rightly unanswerable. - Because they thus only lead to truly endless speculative views. - Because they thus obstruct &destroy the only Way to Final Peace. In the message we got via Howard (41363 Another attempt) the Bhante explained the being indeterminableness of the first four questions in a scientific way and not in a soteriological way; see quote below. And I'm sorry to say: it's a oldfashioned quasi-scientific way, there is much more astrophysical information, there are better mathematical based theories then he uses. I will say: the Bhante is an expert but not at the topic he is talking about. (3) The source the Bhante mentions is 24th Ditthi-Samyutta SN III [202ff]. The grouped sayings on Views. On page 997-999 of BB's translation we find another time the 10 questions. As far as I understand, the core reason the Buddha gives for being no good of (first four of) these questions is: "When there is form, bhikkhus, when there is feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, by clinging to consciousness, by adhering to consciousness, such a view as this arises: 'The world is eternal' …" For me the Buddha doesn't say these questions are indeterminable but that no good to speculate about them, for soteriological reason. My conclusion: we can have a scientific discussion about these questions now, with arguments, with empirical facts that can (of course) been interpretated in different ways, but …But speculation about these questions, building kind of metaphysical phantasies on it, doesn't bring me further on my buddhistic path (but can be a innocent way of spending my leisure time). Metta Joop OK here some of them come: > > 1: Is the Universe Finite ? > > 2: Is the Universe Infinite ? A) Let's say you by mind could travel beyond the speed of light out there in the mighty space. Whether you hit or did not hit any sort of boundary: What could you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further out 'behind this' percieved boundary! B) As the 'ALL' and thereby also 'The Universe' really is nothing but a constructed perception & as such a kind of 'Internal' phenomena; What can you conclude from that ??? Nothing!!! since there could always be something further 'internal' hidden inside, behind & beyound the mere imaginary appearance of this perception! > > 3: Is the Universe Eternal ? However long one wait to see by direct experience that the Universe is Eternal, one can never be absolutely sure that it will not end & stop even tomorrow!!! BUM FINALE hehehe ;-) > > 4: Is the Universe not Eternal ? If one perceive an 'End' like a 'BIG IMPLOSION', how can one ever know for sure that the Universe will not begin Again by a new 'BIG BANG... That is actually the case. A 'Harmonica' of expansion-implosion...;-) 41372 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Sarah and TG, Sarah: You say all dreams and fantasies and any concepts are conditioned. Please give me your sutta quotes for this. James: Concepts are conditioned by the mind's tendency to mental proliferation (In Pali: Papanca). From SN 18 "The Honeyball": "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future, and present forms cognizable through the eye. (…Continued for the other sense spheres). Sarah: Seeing things as they are (yathaabhuuta) always has to do with the development of satipatthana or vipassana, not with analysis which I've never suggested. What are dhammas (realities)? The dhatus, the khandhas, nama and rupa as included in the foundations of mindfulness. James: The Buddha's path of liberation also includes being mindful of concepts and consequently not being lead astray by them. From SN 131 "A Single Excellent Night": Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; 1212 1212: MA: He should contemplate each presently arisen state, just where it has arisen, by way of the seven contemplations of insight (insight into impermanence, suffering, non-self, disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, relinquishment). To my reading, "state" here doesn't necessarily apply to namas and rupas in there raw sense, but to any state. From the Honeyball Sutta one can see that mental proliferations (concepts) are often states that arise at the moment. Sakyong Mipham in his book `Turning The Mind Into An Ally' describes how mindfulness of each presently arisen state takes the mind deeper and deeper into awareness and calmness. He describes these levels: 1. Conventional Life 2. Fantasies 3. Emotions 4. Discursive Thoughts 5. Subtle Thoughts 6. Peaceful Abiding Metta, James 41373 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Tep, Most of the points you raised in this post have since been covered in your discussion with Sukin. But I'd like to continue, all the same. We were talking about experiencing a presently arisen dhamma with right understanding: You wrote: ---------------------------- > It is profoundly difficult because that end-product of "direct seeing and knowing" is not a castle built in the air, it requires several stages of development starting from solid Sila to nama-rupa- pariccheda nana and beyond. > ----------------------------- Yes, the end product you are talking about does require a lot of preparation. But, even now, there can be a degree of right understanding. To the extent that we have studied the true Dhamma, there can, at least, be right *intellectual* understanding of the present dhammas. I doubt a beginner like me would ever have moments of direct understanding. They would have to be of an extremely weak level. (I remember DSG has discussed this before, but can't remember what we concluded. :-) ) ------------------------------------- T: > But there are many real stories of those virtuous monks who could achieve this insight knowledge from samatha-vipassana and contemplation of the ti-lakkhana of the five aggregates (panca khandha). > -------------------------------------- There certainly are. I doubt there are any samatha-vipassana meditators (people who can use jhana as a vehicle for insight) today, but there must be some bare-vipassana meditators. ----------------- T: > The contemplation is, of course, not some idle thinking of the three characteristics. ------------------ Certainly not, and direct knowledge of the khandhas (and their characteristics) must not be confused with the experiencing of concepts. Anyone, even and animal, can concentrate on a part of the body or on a state of mind. To equate that sort of mindfulness with mindfulness of nama and rupa would be a grave misunderstanding. --------------------------- <. . .> T: > I think Howard and I have stressed that conventional wisdom is necessarey while one is training toward sotapatti-magga-nana. I doubt it very much if anyone can start right away at seeing and knowing the Paramattha dhamma, i.e. bypassing the conventional way. It is just purely illogical to me. > ---------------------------- I agree entirely except for one thing: We may have different ideas on the correct conventional way. To me, the correct conventional way is a theoretical knowledge of the five khandhas. I think the incorrect conventional way is to equate concepts with khandhas. This occurs in formal meditation where the meditator concentrates on, for example, a pain in the leg or a feeling of hardness where the body touches the floor, or the ideas that spring to mind, etc. Some DSG people maintain that this sort of practice, even though not the real satipatthana, will at least lead to the real thing. I don't see why it would. And I can think of many reasons why it wouldn't. ----------------- T: In the following sutta, the Buddha described how the Path factors work together toward the insight knowledge penetration. The language is based on the conventional truth (vohara-sacca) and it is clear to a worldling like me. Why didn't he use the Abhidhamma language? ----------------- The way I see it, the intention of the teaching is that the learner should see absolute reality wherever the uninstructed worldling sees conventional reality. The suttas were mostly (not always) in conventional language, and the audience (no doubt well schooled in Abhidhamma) would see the absolute reality to the best of their ability. Even though the Buddha didn't like to use Abhidhamma language in conjunction with conventional language (e.g., "The five khandhas were walking down the street"), the example you give comes pretty close to it, I think. My very limited understanding is that it starts with the cetasika samma-samadhi by explaining the conditions (supports and requisites) for it's momentary arising and persisting. The first condition is the presence of samma-ditthi. Even though all eight path-factors arise together in one citta, some depend on others to be the forerunner etc. Having arisen, they all support each other (by co-nascence condition, I think). Further on, the sutta reads; "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view. This is one's right mindfulness." (end quote) I would assume that those lines are describing the kilesa-destroying functions of the path factors. (All very Abhidhamma). Regards, Ken H 41374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Attempt, life faculty. Hi Howard, thanks for your third attempt. I looked up the text. I have a footnote to life: it is the animating principle, 'animal-soul'. It is in contrast to the body. Thus here it is actually speculation about body and soul: the life (soul) is one thing, the body another, etc. There are many speculations about this subject, with clinging to a self, or taking things for permanent. The rupa that is life faculty is rupakkhandha. It arises and falls away immediately. op 27-01-2005 06:18 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Subj: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable > Questions. > From: bhikkhu_ekamuni@y... > To: upasaka@a... 41375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga XIV, books. Hi Larry, op 27-01-2005 01:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for the exensive reply regarding matika. I can see I'm going to > have to get a Dhammasangani. N: Good, but the English Transl is not always so clear. But ask when it is unclear, because I can compare with the Pali. In the footnotes there is reference to its Co, the Expositor (Atthasalini), and this is helpful. You might as well get this, to read the texts side by side. It is useful to get a catalogue from PTS. If you become a member the books are cheaper. Nina. 41376 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Experience of objects Hi James, appreciating your remarks that make me consider cetasikas more. op 26-01-2005 19:11 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Nina: Citta never arises alone, it needs cetasikas and these > condition citta.... > James: This is precisely why I have questioned the existence of > cetasikas. If cetasikas never arise alone, how does one know that > they exist? N: We experience them all the time but we do not know that they are mere dhammas. (see below). J: In your opinion, why does the Abhidhamma contain this > kind of classification? ... Am I making myself clear? N: Yes, I understand your q. We do not need to call them cetasikas, this is only a reference term. We can also say, different qualities, and among them good ones and bad ones. Many occur in the suttas, though not in so much detail as in the Abhidhamma. J:... the introduction to the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha by Bhikkhu Bodhi states: >.... > For example, the triads include such sets as states that are > wholesome, unwholesome, indeterminate; states associated with > pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neutral feeling; .... > > James: Now, it seems to me reasonable to distinguish cittas based on > the triads and dyads as described above because these are > classifications where are clearly separate. In other words, a > pleasant feeling isn't ever going to also be a painful feeling (at > the same time) and a root condition isn't ever going to be a non- > root condition (at the same time), etc. N: Quite right. < a pleasant feeling isn't ever going to also be a painful feeling (at > the same time)>. You understand cetasikas now, they have different characteristics and appear one at a time. Feeling is cetasika, or, feeling khandha. J: However, cittas and cetasikas occur at the same time. What is there to differentiate > between them? Why aren't they seen as just different types of > cittas? N: You say, What is there to differentiate between them? Good question. Answer: the cetasikas. Citta merely cognizes an object but the accompanying cetasikas are a condition that they are so different. When Kh Sujin spoke about citta and cetasika (there are 52) she said it could also be seen that there are 53 cetasikas, counting citta as an extra one. When we consider seeing or hearing, these are cittas, cognizing an object. They have the minimum cetasikas, only seven and these are not so prominent. When citta with lobha arises after seeing, lobha is more obvious, we can come to know lobha cetasika. James quotes: ...(snip) a > succession of discrete evanescent cognitive events called cittas, > each a complex unity involving consciousness itself, as the basic > awareness of an object, and a constellation of mental factors > (cetasika) exercising more specialized tasks in the act of > cognition." > James: I'm not entirely sure what a `constellation of mental > factors' is supposed to mean. N: The accompanying cetasikas. James:This description, to use an analogy, > reminds me of mixtures of things: like ice cream with nuts-candy- > fruit, or soup with vegetables-meat-pasta, etc. However, in each of > these cases, the various ingredients can be separated. We can > say "Here is the ice cream and here are the nuts" or "Here is the > soup base and here are the vegetables". But can the same thing be > said for cittas and cetasikas? Can one say "This is the citta and > this is the cetasika"? N: Very good remark. Questions of Milinda: someone goes to the ocean and takes a handful of water, but he does not know this is water from the Ganges, this from the Jamuna, this from the Aciravati river. But the Blessed One did a difficult thing, separating the citta and the different cetasikas. For us this is very hard. But it is not impossible when paññaa is developed. Otherwise, what is the use of studying all these different dhammas? They have been taught so that they can be realized. Had the Buddha not taught citta and cetasikas we would not know anything. J: If they can never be separated, I don't see > how. What really exists are various types of cittas and the > additional category of cetasika seems to be for organization's sake > rather than an actual dhamma. What do you think? N: They are actual dhammas, not in the book. When you are angry, anger is a cetasika, it is a root. When you are attached, attachment is a cetasika, it is a root. Satipatthanasutta, mindfulness of citta: citta with lobha, citta with anger. Why is it said: citta *with* lobha (saraga-citta) or dosa? To show that the root, a cetasika, makes citta so different. You experience pleasant or unpleasant feeling: cetasikas. You experience generosity when you anumodana, it is different from anger. The citta is entirely different, it is conditioned by many good qualities: there is calm, pliancy, wieldiness, gentleness, alobha, adosa. This shows that citta is conditioned by many cetasikas at the same time. (Your Q and Larry's overlap here somewhat). The suttas are full of cetasikas, though the name cetasika does not occur. But the qualities, the characteristics are mentioned. Terms are not so important. Contact, feeling, attachment, perception or remembrance, etc. They all occur in the suttas. And take remembrance, sañãa: without it we would not know the meaning of all things we use in daily life, or we could not walk on the street without stepping on dirt or falling into a hole. J: (Beyond a > restatement of the fundamentals?) This has perplexed me since I > first read about cetasikas. N: Yes, I understand. But good you read about them, it helps the foundation knowledge for the practice. And also those who develop jhana and vipassana as a pair: they have to realize the jhanafactors (cetasikas again!) as non-self when they emerge from jhana. The three characteristics have to be applied to rupa, citta and cetasika, or in other words, to the five khandhas. J: Ps. If you tell me that cetasikas can only be differentiated from > cittas by `insight', I would like you to explain precisely what you > mean. Otherwise, you might as well just say "It's MAGIC"! ;-)) >N: Sati can be aware of one dhamma at a time, and then paññaa can gradually know different characteristics of dhammas that appear. No need to name citta or cetasika, just characteristics that appear. That is the way. Later on citta can be differentiated from cetasikas, but for me still a long way. But the subject is worth discussing more, perhaps Rob K, Sarah, Mike or anyone else can add something. I like some input to discuss further. Nina. 41377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 2. Hi Larry, op 27-01-2005 01:10 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > You said we experience a cetasika only when it is an object of > consciousness and only in a mind door process. Would that be mind-door > adverting consciousness adverting to a cetasika that is the experience > of a cetasika? N: The following javanacittas consider the object or think about it, or name it. In the case of non-arahats, this considering or thinking is either in the wholesome way or in the unwholesome way. It can be with pañña or without it. It can be with clinging or wrong view. The mind-door adverting consciousness is one very short moment that merely adverts to a new object after the bhavanga-cittas that have their own object have fallen away. L:Wouldn't this be two experiences, adverting and the > cetasika? N: So, not only the adverting consciousness but the whole mind-door process. Nama can know another nama. Feeling, anger, attachment: if there were no mind-door process we would not possibly know them or recognize them. Certainly not in a sense-door process. L: Also you brought up the case of sati identifying rupa as distinct from 5 > door consciousness. How would this work? Say there is a 5-door process > with visible data as object. Then the mind door process begins with > adverting to visible data, followed by sati javana cittas identifying > this as visible data. N: Correct. L: However, there doesn't seem to be an experience of > visible data separate from consciousness. N: I think you mean: separate from seeing? They have different characteristics, one being rupa, one being nama, and although they are both present, sati is aware of the characteristic that presents itself to the sati. I understand that this is hard to swallow. It can be understood when there is a short moment of sati. Hardness may present itself. Sati may happen to be aware of it. This is a moment different from body-consciousness that experiences hardness. Body-consciousness is merely vipaakacitta, whereas sati arises with kusala citta. Sati experiences in a detached way, there is also alobha. There is no idea of self: I try to have sati, I experience. Very hard in the beginning. I am mostly repeating what I heard. Listening and listening conditions sati. L: At best there is only an understanding of visible data as separate from consciousness. I don't > see how this understanding can be anything other than a reasoned understanding, though words may not be necessary. N:Yes, by inference, but this does not matter, it is intellectual understanding, and that is a good beginning. The late Phra Dhammadhari used to say: it does not matter, and this is very important. He was indicating that clinging does not work. He did not mean being lazy. > N: ...(snip) You realize that > you only know them by thinking and that is why you believe that they are > only concepts. Is that not so?" > > L: Yes and no. We all experience cetasikas but it is difficult to fit > that experience into citta process. N: See above, not difficult intellectually, in theory. L: Also, I don't see how anyone, even > the Buddha, can know through direct experience that 2 dhammas arise at > the same time. Surely this also is a matter of reasoned analysis. N: See my answer to James, the Q. of Milinda. We understand by inference that many dhammas arise at the same time, and also that they arise because of different conditions. But each citta can know only one object at a time. Sati cannot be aware of several characteristics at a time. But shortly one after the other is possible. Take the first stage of tender insight. There are several mind-door processes and both nama and rupa are known shortly one after the other. Thus, their difference can be realized. But, it is all very fast, Kh Sujin said. There is no counting this process and then that process. No naming. Nina. 41378 From: Philip Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: Hi from Phil Hi Sarah > Meanwhile, does this help: > http://www.j-theravada.net/ Thanks for this. It is the place I was thinking of, and by clicking around I found a Japanese language Dhammapada on line - which is what I was hoping to find at the temple. It's not far from the place we'll be moving to next month, so we'll see. The Sri Lankan elder has written some interesting looking books and teaches beginner's classes once a month or so. Metta, Phil 41379 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/27/05 2:12:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > p.s Howard, glad you had no probs so far from the blizzards. We > think it’s cold here when the temp sinks to near 10 C!! > ====================== Ahh, 50 F - Springtime!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41380 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/27/05 2:39:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > Hi again, Howard, > > Now here, it’s back to our usual kind of dialogue without such full > agreement;-) ---------------------------------- Howard: Yay! Back to the familiar! ;-) ---------------------------------- > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > I have found my prior (partial) addressing of this matter, and it > > > >happens to have been in a post to Jon! What I wrote there was "We begin > >in the > >midst of a conventional, story-world of experience and action. It is > >with regard > >to such a "world", and "actions" in it that the Buddha instructed his > >listeners within the suttas. > …. > S: Hmmm > … > >There he taught them to conventionally > >engage in > >conventional actions. > …. > S: Here I’d like to quote back KenH;-). As I understand it, the Buddha > taught the Truth, the 4NT in various ways. What’s right and what’s wrong, > what leads to what result and so on. As we’ve all discussed many times, he > used conventional speech (as we all do), but there was no misunderstanding > of the message about (paramattha) dhammas for the wise. He stressed that > the knowing of the ‘all’ are just these paramattha dhammas – the khandhas > (and nibbana). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: When he talked to his followers about guarding the senses, and clenching the teeth, and sitting with back straight and attention to the fore, and seeking out good Dhamma friends who are the whole of the holy life etc, etc etc. he was speaking of conventional actions. Those who were high ariyans certainly understood the realities underlying all this conventional speech, as they did the realities underlying this entire projected world of concept, but most of his followers did not, nor did they need to in order to follow his instructions. They went right ahead and did as instructed, bu what actually occurred was not what they thought, but was a conditioned flow of experiential realities they were largely unaware of. ------------------------------------------------ > …. > >The realities that underlie such actions are what > >have > >consequences, and those actual consequences are yet other realities. But > >we worldlings > >do not operate at the level of awareness of realities. We operate at the > >conventional, conceptual level." > …. > S: From my point of view, you’re half right here. Yes, there are only > realities. Whether we see them for what they are or not, there are only > realities. As we read in one of those suttas in the AN anthology, whether > a Buddha comes along or not, the Truths remain the same. In other words, > just because we ignorantly take concepts for being truths or think our > conventional world is the real one, does not alter the facts about what is > really being experienced right now. Ignorance is one such reality to be > known. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. I agree entirely. ------------------------------------ > > Yes, we use concepts and ‘operate at the conventional, conceptual level’, > but such ‘operating’ can be with or without wrong view about dhammas at > any given moment. Clearly, for the ariyans, when talking about purple > elephants or trees in the garden, there would have been no illusion that > these were anything but conceptual terms used for expression. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I agree completely! (So, why was I only "half right"? ;-) ----------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s old post of yours on Poetyr, Negations and Dukkha (Dec21), you said > H:‘ “All conditioned dhammas are impermanentâ€? does not say that > conditioned dhammas change. It says they do not remain – no conditioned > dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change ever mean?’ > > S:I understand dhammas are changing all the time. As soon as they are > arising, they’re changing and falling away. When we read about the 3 > phasesof cittas (which Htoo often writes about), each phase conditions the > next phase. Like dominoes, as soon as they’re set in motion, they have to > change and fall away. So they change and do not remain. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps. I am aware that this is said about cittas in the commentaries. Actually, the growth, peaking, and declining (in intensity) of a mindstate, like a wave, makes perfectly good sense to me, and I have no problem with that - in fact it appeals to me. But I don't think of that sort of change as very important. When dhammas arise or cease, pa~n~natti that we project onto the dhammic stream seem to change, but the reality of the matter is that dhammas themselves, don't turn into other dhammas - they don't change their nature. When a dhamma ceases, it is *gone*. When a dhamma arises, it is brand new - never "on the scene" before. It may seem that we hear a changing melody. But "the melody" is conceptually projected upon a multitude of sounds, each of which arises anew and then ceases, never to repeat. There is *always* something new under the sun!! (My variation on a theme of Ecclesiastes! ;-) That is what I was alluding to. ----------------------------------------- > > With regard to the speed of citta in another post of yours to me on the > same date (see how behind I get!), I believe the speed is both in > reference to the speed of rupas (as you suggest) and also as a general > comment that nothing changes as fast as the mind or citta regardless. This > would even be true in arupa jhana states or realms! ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41381 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James James as far as my memory on the texts, one cannot attain immaterial jhanas without first attaining the materials jhanas Give you an extract : it is about the recollection of Buddha. << When a disciple recollects the Tathagatha thus, on that occassion his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred or delusion, his mind is straight, with the Tagathat as its object. A noble disciple whose mind is straight gain inspiration of the meaning, the inspiration of hte Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened, rapture arises; for one uplifted by rapture of the body becomes calm, one calm in body feels happy; for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated.....>> AN (VI,10) It shows that gladness of the dhamma that cause rise of rapture, then in turns, calm, happy then at least concentrated ;-) They are many ways a person can become concentrated and not necessary by jhanas, further the Buddha way is always about panna first and not the other way around. Then go to AN [IV, 123] The Jhanas and Rebirth - where it shows a difference between one whos is Noble one and one is not. Beings that live in Braham realm and not those who are Noble ones, will after passing away from braham realm will rebirth in the lower realms while the Nobles one will gain enlightment. Another point, this sutta also shows that there is no need to attain the four jhanas in order to be liberated. Ken O 41382 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Hi Tep > > Here sama-samadhi is not just samadhi, although the two terms have > been interchangeable by some translators of the suttas. Sama- > samadhi is right concentration and is defined by the four jhanas as Samma Samadhi is only application during stages of enlightement where all the eightfold factors are right. Please read the email I send to James on the difference on jhanas by an ariyan and a ordinary person. The jhanas are the same but the result are different because one is pre-conditioned by panna while the other is just kusala behavior without panna. Ken O 41383 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Attempt, life faculty. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/27/05 9:23:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > thanks for your third attempt. I looked up the text. I have a footnote to > life: it is the animating principle, 'animal-soul'. It is in contrast to the > body. Thus here it is actually speculation about body and soul: the life > (soul) is one thing, the body another, etc. There are many speculations > about this subject, with clinging to a self, or taking things for permanent. > The rupa that is life faculty is rupakkhandha. It arises and falls away > immediately. > ====================== Ahh, thank you for clarifying the matter! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41384 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Tep Cetana can influence citta, and right > efforts in the sense of deliberate cultivation of sila, samadhi and > panna, do influence citta. k: We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. T: Doesn't cetana influence the "direction of mind", regardless of the knowledge of anatta? k: Cetana does not influence the direction of mind. It is the roots of kusala and akusala that influence the direction of the mind. If we look at D.O., it is ignorance + craving that is the force of the continual existence, kamma can only exist as long as latency exist. Cetana is a volition, it cannot influence. All actions of our speech or bodily actions are resulted by the action of the mind which in turns influenced by the roots. Ken O 41385 From: Hugo Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:25am Subject: Books written by monks about monk's life and practice. While most of you will agree that reading the Tipitaka is the authoritative instruction from The Buddha and that there is all that is needed to know in order to attain Enlightenment, a lot of people will have a lot of questions not only on what was the message The Buddha was trying to convey but also on how to apply those teachings to our everyday life, specially those of us who still have a long way to go before reaching Enlightenement. I have found that reading about the life and mode of practice of different monks is a very useful thing to do in order to enhance my own practice. It gives me the opportunity to learn how these people have brought the teachings of Buddha into their own lives, and how their lives have been shaped by the teachings of Buddha until their lives and the teachings become one. I have read many anecdotes of monks here and there on the web, but the following books provide you with a lot of anecdotes in one single place. 1) Patipada or the mode of practice of Venerable Acharn Mun http://www.luangta.or.th/english/site/book6_patipada.html The name suggests only one monk (Ven. Acharn Mun) but it really talks about many of his students. It is written by one of them who is still alive. Unfortunately the on-line version is not ready yet but if you can get a hold of it (in a monastery, or by ordering it), read it, it is long but entertaining, not boring. My teacher told me that there was some concern by some monks on having it available for laypeople as it describes some things that might confuse them, so keep this in mind. More books from the same author: http://www.luangta.or.th/english/site/books.php 2) Living Dharma http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570621381/103-2026048-3364621 Don't be mislead by the title, it is about Theravada teachers, why the author used Dharma and not Dhamma, I don't know. I learned a lot from this book, one particular inspiring bit that brought some insight to my practice is the chapter about one nun (forgot her name), it helped me realize the First Noble Truth. 3) Food for the Heart: The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0861713230/qid=1106842420/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-2026048-3364621 I haven't finished this one yet, but so far, it is great, simply great. Some of the questions that have arisen on my practice are asked there, even with the same words, and the best is that they are answered. Some of the teachings included in this book are available on the web, but I think not all of them, in any case the money spent on it is well spent. I will post some excerpts from the books related to some of the topics that that came up on the mailing list and "I took with me" during my time off-list. Remember, everything is a tool, it takes wisdom to know how, when and for how long you use it. -- Hugo 41386 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/27/05 11:37:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > T: Doesn't cetana influence the "direction of mind", regardless of > the knowledge of anatta? > > k: Cetana does not influence the direction of mind. It is the roots > of kusala and akusala that influence the direction of the mind. If > we look at D.O., it is ignorance + craving that is the force of the > continual existence, kamma can only exist as long as latency exist. > Cetana is a volition, it cannot influence. All actions of our speech > or bodily actions are resulted by the action of the mind which in > turns influenced by the roots. > ===================== As I understand it, Ken, cetana fabricates - in fact, it is the chief fabricating cetasika. It certainly influences; in fact, it is a major participant in constructing. You speak of "the action of the mind". Cetana is a significant part of that. Cetana is, exactly, kamma. Do you claim that kamma has no influence? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41387 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Sarah In a message dated 1/26/2005 11:12:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: Hi TG & Howard, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In this one, you missed my point above (which was easy to do). I am not > saying concepts are non-existant. I am not taking about concepts that > haven't > arisen. I am imparting that viewpoint to those in this group who do not > believe > that (arisen) concepts are real. I am asking, from their point of view, > how > something that isn't real can affect things that are real. How can the > principle of Dependent Origination account for that? …. S: I don’t think I missed your point. Howard replied to exactly the same comments of mine with the following which I thought was very well said indeed. Do you have any comments on it? TG: Once the reader believes he or she knows the authors meaning better than the author, and that belief is in full disagreement with the author, even when the author tries to clarify it by saying -- "you don't understand my position," what can be said? TG:> You mention thinking, reflection, marking, wise conderation; are the > powers > that actually affect things. These states you mention are dependent on > concepts (with possible minimal exceptions). …. S: I wouldn’t say so. Concepts can never act as dependence (nissaya) condition, but they are ‘projected’ as Howard said. It is the thinking or projection that does the affecting, not the ‘purple elephant’ or ‘ story about the tree’ itself, other than serving as objects of such projections. … TG: And just what are "conceptual projections"? Where are they projected? Is this a notion you're going to want to support? Isn't this letting delusion lead your thinking? Please read the following closely... Concepts are formed from memories. These are mental objects. It is impossible to have a concept not based on memory. You may say..."I have no memory of a purple elephant." Actually, you do. You have learned about purple and you have learned about elephants. They are both memories and you are just combining them. All fantasies, concepts, imaginations, and so called creativity; are just combinations of things we have previously experienced. It is impossible for states to arise without a "conditional basis." If you believe that a concept is supposed to actually be the purple elephant, than you are confusing "concept" with "purple elephant." A concept of a purple elephant isn't supposed to BE a purple elephant...it is supposed to BE a concept. Randon House College Dictionary definition of "Memory:" the mental capacity or faculty of retaining and reviving impressions, or the recalling or recognizing of previous experience. Concepts are part and parcel of this process. TG:>What is thought...other > than mental > activity engaging a concept? How can a "reality" be supported by a > "non-reality"? This is the point I was making. In my view, your > comments support that > viewpoint (without supporting it). ;-) … S: Ah, but you are the one talking about being ‘supported by a “non-realityâ€? ‘, not us;-). TG: This is patently false and absurd!!! I'm the one saying all possible states of experience are conditioned! It is your quarter who takes the possition that concepts do not exist (or are not real). And in addition to that, when it comes to Nibbana, your quarter claims it is a Nama. Even though it is clearly defined by the Buddha as the complete cessation of feeling, perception, and consciousness. Seems that that the current state of Abhidhamma Studies believes that ... things that arise (concepts) are non-existent (or not real), and things that don't arise (unconditioned Nibbana) exist as a Nama. Wow. For me this alone shows some serious flaws in contemporary Abhidhamma Studies. These conclusions coincide with a belief system that sees things as being too substantial. This entire topic has virtually nothing to do with the Buddha's teachings and wouldn't be necessary at all if it were not for "substantialists" trying to dissect "realities." I will continue to study Abhidhamma now and then, but very cautious of its "substantialist" tendencies. I’m actually delighted to read Howard’s comments above, because I know we’ve discussed this topic at length before. Metta, Sarah TG 41388 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:28am Subject: Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: Dear Htoo and All, Is rupa and citta/cetasika ever considered annamanna sahajata paccaya? I'm thinking of examples such as the heart base and citta or the eye base and seeing consciousness? Thanks Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Steve, Annamanna sahajata paccaya or 'mutuality conascence condition' has specifics relations to dhammas. Your examples are not right. They may be other conditions like prenascence condition or postnascence condition. Or may be vippayutta paccaya or dissociation condition. Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence condition' the relationship can be seen in between a) 4 nama-kkhandhas b) 4 mahabhuta rupas c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. a) Vinnana-kkhandha depends on sanna-kkhandha. Without sanna citta cannot arise. They arise together and depend on each other and so do other nama-kkhandhas. b) Tejo cannot exist without pathavi and vice versa. This is mutuality and again pathavi and tejo arise at the same time. So 4 mahabhuta rupas are in the conditional relationship of 'mutuality conasence condition'. c) At rebirth or at the exact time of patisandhi or linking period there is hadaya vatthu and patisandhi nama-kkhandha. Again they arise together and they depend on each other. This is 'mutuality conasence condition'. But cakkhu vatthu and cakkhuvinnana citta does not relate in such a way of 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence condition'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41389 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, cosmique wrote: ----In nirodha-samapatti there is no > sankhara dhamma except kammaja-rupa or kamma-derived materials and aharaja-rupa or nutrment-derived materials.---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique wrote: Dear Htoo, Thanks for your answer. It is rather clear on the one hand, on the other hand I am even more confused now. I thought the highest goal in Buddha-dhamma was to reach or realize the state of nibbana. And I believed nirodha and nibbana were the same state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nirodha = nibbana and nibbana = nirodha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique wrote: 1. Then what is the purpose of nirodhi-sammapati? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The purpose is to have nibbana, simply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique question 2: 2. Is it a higher achievement than nibbana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nibbana is nirodha and nirodha is nibbana. So your question has already been answered. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique question 3: 3. Is magga citta present in parinibbana or after arahant's death? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In parinibbana there is no magga citta. Magga cittas arise once and once only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: The question 3 is posed for the following reason: if after the arahant's death there is no more any citta left, therefore this state is equivalent to the state of nirodhi-samapatti where there is no citta either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why it is said that in terms of 'santi' or existence there is only one and only one nibbana. I have to repeat nibbana is nirodha and nirodha is nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: And in reverse order, if nibbana seen by magga-citta is not the same as nirodhi-samapatti, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. The direction and angle of viewing is different here. At the time magga citta arises there is a knower and there also is knowee. Knower is magga citta and knowee is nibbana. As there is a knowee this is not equal to cessation which is norodha-samapatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cosmique continued: then parinibbana after the arahant's death is not just mindless state. Thanks, With mahametta, Cosmique ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Nibbana cannot be thought out with logic. It is not the subject of logic. But it is the subject of attainment by meditative practice which again needs a lot of energy and full perfections that is when all conditions are right. For your above arguement please consider asannisattas or non- percipient beings. They do not have any mind or any citta at all. But it is not nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41390 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread (245) Dear Dhamma Friends, It is sometimes hard to think of hell beings, some animals that are not described in zoological classification system like naaga (serpentine species) and supanna (avian species), ghosts, and demons. But once one is reborn in any of these 4 woeful planes of existence it is a great loss. Arising of patisandhi citta in any of these four realms already determines what species one should be. This arising is not without a cause. Venerable Assaji said to Upatissa 'Ye dhammaa hetuppabhava, tesam hetum tathagato aaha. Tesanca yo nirodho evam vadi maha samano 'ti.' All arising have a cause. Arising of apaya patisandhi citta (ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta) has the reason. As it is vipaka citta or resultant consciousness there must have been something at the time of cooking. Vipaka dhammas are cooked results. Who are cooking things? And who are no more cooking anything? Non-arahats are still cooking things. They may be cooking good food or bad food. When it is cooked the resultant dhammas or cooked results are vipaka dhammas. Good cooking are performing of kusala actions at kaya-dvara, vaci- dvara, and mano-dvara. Bad cooking are performing of akusala actions at kaya-dvara, vaci- dvara, and mano-dvara. When bad cooking is being done this means akusala dhammas are being carried out. There are 12 akusala cittas and 14 akusala cetasikas. These 14 akusala cetasikas when arise in akusala cittas are also associated with universal cetasikas and some particular cetasikas. But the main culprit are akusala cetasikas and the chief is akusala citta. As long as akusala cittas can arise there are still creating kamma and these kamma will give rise to akusala vipaka cittas. But for rebirth the akusala kamma is worse than any other kamma. When a being is just going to die this may be one of many different states. Because there are many mode of death. Time delay from a point of clear knowledge of 'going to die' to the point of death is different in different dying beings. Whatever the case whether sudden death or down-going death or planned death any death has sequence of events of nama and rupa. When dying, there start to race many kamma. Yes. They are racing. These kamma may be kamma done near dying or may be kamma done in a life time or even kamma done in the far former lives. Just before the death one kamma wins the other and that kamma definitely gives rise to next life patisandhi citta and patisandhi rupa- and nama-kkhandha. There are 10 akusala kamma patha dhamma as described in the previous post. If these akusala dhammas were repeatedly practised in that life they may come up near dying and they start to race and if one succeeds then it is dead sure that the being is going to be reborn in one of 4 woeful planes of existence or 4 apaya bhumis. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41391 From: nina Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:24am Subject: Pilgrimage India 3 e Pilgrimage India 3 e Ignorance is like a black curtain, it conceals the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. There are three ways of wrong thinking that prevent us from seeing the truth. Clinging to the postures of walking, standing, sitting and lying down prevent us from realizing the arising and falling away of the rúpas of the body. We think, for example, of ourselves as sitting. It is saññå which remembers that we are sitting, but we do not realize that what we take for the body which sits consists of rúpas that arise and fall away. Secondly, we are misled by the continuity or succession (santati) of nåma and of rúpa. They arise and fall away immediately to be followed by a succeeding one and therefore we think that they are lasting. It seems that we are seeing people, and that seeing lasts, but in reality many cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another. It seems that paying attention to shape and form occurs at the same time as seeing, but these are different moments. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, translated in Wheel no. 155-158) that the Buddha said: ³No other thing do I know, O monks, that so quickly changes as the mind: Inasmuch that it is not easy to give an illustration for the mind's quick change.² We believe that we see persons, and this prevents us from realizing the impermanence of visible object. Thirdly, we are also misled by remembrance of a ³group², gana saññå. We experience nåmas as a group, a whole, and rúpas as a group. We see only a ³whole² of different dhammas. We cling to the idea of a person who exists, whereas in reality a person is only citta, cetasika and rúpa which arise and fall away immediately. **** Nina. 41392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Hi Steve, I am just butting in if I may. At the moment of rebirth-consciousness the heartbase arises together with citta and they condition one another by way of sahajaata-paccaya and aññamañña-paccaya, but not during life. Then the heartbase has to arise before the citta it conditions. Also eyebase has to arise before seeing consciousness because rupa is too weak at its arising moment to serve as base or as object. Nina. op 27-01-2005 00:51 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > Is rupa and citta/cetasika ever considered annamanna sahajata > paccaya? I'm thinking of examples such as the heart base and citta or > the eye base and seeing consciousness? 41393 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 > The conversation between Khanti Khema and Htoo Naing continued at > dhammasukha site. kel: Interesting conversion but I don't think either of you will budge from your positions. I'm noticing the same pattern in various threads of people over-generalizing their position and expecting everyone to think in the same way. Khema's points are obviously from their teacher since it's repetition of his book. I don't see why to show merits of a particular way or technique, one has to devalue others? Is it because it's insufficient by itself and by lowering everything else it can be seen as higher? Everyone is at their own stage of development and as long as they're trying to follow the teachings, I don't see a problem with it. I'm feeling like a waste of time to discuss these finer points as they really have no impact on one's ultimate goal. I did remember one categorization of suitability of four satipatthana methods for different types of people. Kaya - high tanha and low wisdom Vedana - high tanha and high wisdom Citta - high ditthi and low wisdom Dhamma - high ditthi and high wisdom Maybe some people prefer anatta because it's directly opposite of ditthi and so emphasis is on dhammanupassana. That is perhaps reflected in their inclination to see the ultimate realities. I guess it's hard to not show bias in everything we discuss. Perhaps we're too quick to blame the techniques without considering our incompatibilities or inadequacies. Quite a few people in Burma go from one center to another surveying different techniques. Then they argue the pros and cons of different approaches without really having tried them to the fullest. The worst is probably making conjectures of something they never even tried but somehow are experts of it. - Kelvin 41394 From: connie Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:38pm Subject: liking it when things go my way Dear Friends ;) Most of my 'good intentions' towards the meditation group with its Tibetan flavour went by the wayside and I just quit going altogether for the most part. Guess I just don't have much interest in being the most disagreeable person around all the time. But as it turns out, the group decided to split into two, Tibetan Tuesdays and the rest of us on Wednesdays, so I said I'd start coming again even though I tend to disagree with most of 'the rest', too. I forgot all about it last week and they decided we'd start reading "Old Path, White Clouds: Walking in the Footsteps of the Buddha", which as I understand, is Thich Nhat Hanh's translation/compilation of the Majjhima Nikaya from Pali, Sanskrit and Chinese sources and the only one of his books I think I might be interested in reading, but when I went back to the meeting last night, I took Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" and we started reading it instead. To make it even better to my mind, last night was the first time everyone took more than one turn reading. Here's hoping we make it to "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" one of these days and I end up hanging out with a bunch of disagreeable dinosaurs off-line, too. Thank you, Nina! peace, connie 41395 From: Philip Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 109 - Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Hello all > Samådhi is another word for ekaggat?Ecetasika. Although wrong > concentration and right concentration are both ekaggat?Ecetasika > their qualities are different. Samm?Esamådhi focuses on the object > in the right way, the wholesome way. Getting ahead of things, but can anyone explain in a nutshell what the difference is between this wise concentration and wise attention, another cetasika, which we will be seeing in an upcoming chapter? > The Atthasålin?E(1, Part IV, Chapter 1. 118, 119) states about > ekaggat?E and here it deals actually with samm?Esamådhi (1): > * > "This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has nonscattering > (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as > characteristic, the welding together of the coexistent states as > function, as water kneads bath-powder into a paste, and peace of > mind or knowledge as manifestation. For it has been said: `He who is > concentrated knows, sees according to the truth.?EIt is distinguished by > having ease (sukha) (usually) as proximate cause (2). Like the > steadiness of a lamp in the absence of wind, so should steadfastness of > mind be understood." Like most beginner Westerners would I come to this group with the idea of concentration being something that is maintained over a longer period of time, by a kind of will power, rather than something that arises with every citta in a conditioned way, and is either wholesome or unwholesome, depending on conditions. Therefore I must say, predictably, that concentration as a universal cetasika that arises with every citta doesn't satisfy my culturally- conditioned assumption of what the Buddha meant by Right Concentration. But if I think of Right Concentration as a series of citta processes that follow one after another with ease (sukha) as condition (along with the fulfillment of the many other conditions that are necessary for kusala) it is easier to understand. If 15 minutes of concentration on a wholesome Dhamma related topic arises it is actually a very long chain of very brief moments of right concentration conditioned by one another? (Of course with many, many moments where there is wrong concentration when the wholesome topic falls away again and again?) And for there to be right concentration in this sense, there must be right understanding of realities? Therefore, right concentration in this sense would be a very rare thing. Again, this would go against my cultural assumptions, but having one's cultural assumptions broken down is central to understanding Dhamma. Metta, Phil 41396 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, > when it comes to Nibbana, your quarter claims it is a Nama. Even though it is > clearly defined by the Buddha as the complete cessation of feeling, perception, > and consciousness. > ... > don't arise (unconditioned Nibbana) exist as a Nama. Kel: I don't think this part of your message is true? The model is nama has Nibbana as the object for the 4 magga and 4 phala cittas. While the 5 khandas still exist as a being, complete cessation can't really be achieved. The closest one can get while alive is niroda-sampatti which does have absence of mind and mind- caused matter. But the kamma given body is still there, persisting and interacting with the environment. Unlike normal conditioned phenomena, nibbana isn't caused by the magga/phala cittas. It exists and the mind merely adverts to it. For arahats after final death, the nibbana obtained is as you described. But let's not confuse the context and different ways of attaining or experiencing nibbana. Niroda is really about emulating actual experience (final attainment/death) of Nibbana while still being alive. Phala sampatti is mostly seeking solace from conditioned phenomena while being alive by taking the object that is unconditioned and thus unchanged in nibbana. Notice jhana samapatti functions the same way except that object is artificially created by the mind. - kel 41397 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Howard Kamma is just cause and effect. If kamma can influence the mind, it will be kamma first and not ignorance first as in D.O. The exhaustion of rebirth is only through the extinguishing of kamma which in turns is only possible through the eradication of the latency of the roots. In one of the sutta, I remember it was said that the view that our present action is determined by the cause of our past action is a false view. Ken O 41398 From: seisen_au Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction Dear Htoo, Nina and All, Thank you for your replies. wrote: > Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence > condition' the relationship can be seen in between > > a) 4 nama-kkhandhas > b) 4 mahabhuta rupas > c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa > > These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. Are these 3 examples the only situations where annamanna sahajata paccaya can be found? Thanks Steve 41399 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 2. Hi Nina, I don't think we are communicating on this question. The problem might be different ways of understanding the word 'experience'. When I ask when in mind door process do we experience a cetasika you answer in the javana series. What this says to me is that we react to a cetasika in the javana series. Let's simplify and ask when do we experience a feeling? Suppose there is the experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. Where do we locate that experience of feeling in citta process? Alternately, suppose I dislike that feeling. Where do we locate in citta process the experience of unpleasant mental feeling that arises with the dislike? Does that mental feeling as experience arise in a following citta process after the citta process in which the dislike arose? In the case of neither the bodily feeling nor the mental feeling is feeling an object of consciousness when it first arises. Does that mean it is not experienced then? Is dislike experienced when it first arises? It also is not an object of consciousness at that time. Larry 41400 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:47pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Ken O, It took you a long time to respond to this thread. I hope you are not too busy and are keeping well. The teachers Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta did not teach the Buddha the four jhanas. Again, the Buddha had only achieved the first jhana while a child- I already gave you the appropriate sutta quotation regarding this. What do you have to say about this sutta quotation? One does not need to go through the four jhanas to attain the immaterial attainments- however, one can achieve them from the fourth jhana (though that isn't recommended by the Buddha because it could result in rebirth in those realms). Jhana is the eight factor and the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path- there is simply no getting around that. Anyone who is familiar with the original teachings of the Buddha has to admit that or he/she is clearly in denial. Also, you gave some sutta references; would you mind quoting the specific parts of those suttas which are applicable to the points you make? Metta, James ps. Have you ever practiced meditation of ANY type? If not, it is unlikely that you will ever understand this subject. (What is written in books doesn't match actual experience and you would have no experience to use as a reference point.) 41401 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/27/05 1:09:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Concepts are formed from memories. These are mental objects. =================== I do know what you mean. I had thought about this matter exactly as you do, but I've come to see what I think of as a problem with it. When I "see a tree", there is seeing - perhaps multiple "seeings", and there is also a mental process that leads me to "see a tree". It leads me to project a concept of tree upon the sequence of actual rupic and namic events. That process no doubt involves many mindstates. But it is not at all clear to me where in that process is to be found a single mental object that is "concept of tree". It is not only that I don't find a tree as an actual thing; I don't see a "tree concept" as a single mental object either. What seem to me to be the case is that there is a rapid but complex mental process consisting of a multitude of function-events, but nowhere in that do I come across a pinpointable single idea or mental object that is "the concept of tree". (Of course, perhaps I'm not looking carefully enough. That is certainly possible.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41402 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Nibbana and Abhidhamma/ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > TG: This is patently false and absurd!!! It is your quarter who takes the > possition that concepts do not exist (or are not real). And in addition to that, > when it comes to Nibbana, your quarter claims it is a Nama. Even though it is > clearly defined by the Buddha as the complete cessation of feeling, perception, > and consciousness. > > Seems that that the current state of Abhidhamma Studies believes that ... > things that arise (concepts) are non-existent (or not real), and things that > don't arise (unconditioned Nibbana) exist as a Nama. Wow. For me this alone > shows some serious flaws in contemporary Abhidhamma Studies. ================== Dear TG, A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are really Buddha vacca. I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called vinnanam for this same reason. Robert 41403 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/27/2005 5:03:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I do know what you mean. I had thought about this matter exactly as you do, but I've come to see what I think of as a problem with it. When I "see a tree", there is seeing - perhaps multiple "seeings", and there is also a mental process that leads me to "see a tree". It leads me to project a concept of tree upon the sequence of actual rupic and namic events. That process no doubt involves many mindstates. But it is not at all clear to me where in that process is to be found a single mental object that is "concept of tree". It is not only that I don't find a tree as an actual thing; I don't see a "tree concept" as a single mental object either. What seem to me to be the case is that there is a rapid but complex mental process consisting of a multitude of function-events, but nowhere in that do I come across a pinpointable single idea or mental object that is "the concept of tree". (Of course, perhaps I'm not looking carefully enough. That is certainly possible.) With metta, Howard Hi Howard All states are "multifaceted." We can't speak of anything if we want to take the point of view that there is "no single thing." However, the Buddha managed to break it down into -- mind-object, mind, and mind-consciousness. Concepts are mind-object. I agree that things are occuring as a sequence of processes and a multitude of function-events. That's almost common sense, but certainly easily backed up by Sutta and abhidhamma, or science for that matter. I don't see any of these considerations to be a problem at all with the analysis. TG 41404 From: jonoabb Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions TG (and Howard) I'd just like to add my 2 bits to this interesting discussion. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: ... > Hi Howard > > All states are "multifaceted." We can't speak of anything if we want to take > the point of view that there is "no single thing." However, the Buddha > managed to break it down into -- mind-object, mind, and mind- consciousness. > Concepts are mind-object. As you say, concepts are mind-object, meaning that they are object of a moment of consciousness. But, and this is the important difference, they are also a creation of that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object. All other mind-objects are dhammas of one kind or another that are arising and falling away independently of being the object of consciousness at that moment. This is readily seen I think (intellectually) in the case of dhammas such as visible object and sound, but applies equally where the mind-object is another (immediately past) moment of consciousness or an aspect of it such as anger or attachment or feeling. So I would see concepts as being in a different category to all other mind-objects. Jon 41405 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, Just on these first few lines- --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Sarah > TG: Once the reader believes he or she knows the authors meaning > better > than the author, and that belief is in full disagreement with the > author, even > when the author tries to clarify it by saying -- "you don't understand > my > position," what can be said? …. S: You’re quite right. All I can say is I apologise – of course I don’t know your meaning better than you!! What I meant was that I thought your initial comments were perfectly clearly expressed (your posts are usually very clear) and that I had no doubt that what you clarified (i.e that you were not saying that ‘concepts are non-existent’ etc) was your viewpoint and I understood you were ‘imparting that viewpoint’ to others of us who ‘do not believe that (arisen) concepts are real’ and that you were asking from our ‘point of view how something that isn’t real can affect things that are real’.etc. I answered accordingly and I’m sure it was my reply that didn’t make this clear - I can see why. Of course, I appreciate there were probably all sorts of other aspects behind your words that I didn’t take account of or was not aware of. Again, I’m sorry for any frustration conditioned by my words (ah, and before you think I may have switched sides - that’s short-hand for any thinking about concepts on account of what is seen when you read my posts), which is certainly not intended at all. Metta, Sarah p.s I may get back on other points next week, but I’m glad to see others have taken some of them up in the meantime. I do value the discussions we all have with you TG. ====================== 41406 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:16pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 110 - Concentration/ekaggataa (f) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Sammå-samådhi is one of the jhåna-factors which are developed in samatha in order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhåna(1). The jhåna factors of applied thought (vitakka), sustained thought (vicåra), enthusiasm (píti), happy feeling (sukha) and samådhi have to be developed together in order to attain jhåna. All the jhåna-factors assist the citta to attain tranquillity by means of a meditation subject. Some people take wrong concentration for right concentration of samatha. They want to try to concentrate on one point with the desire to become relaxed. Then there is akusala citta with clinging to relaxation. The aim of samatha is not what we mean by the word ‘relaxation’ in common language, but it is the temporary elimination of defilements. In order to develop samatha in the right way, right understanding of its development is indispensable. Right understanding should know precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta and it should know the characteristic of calm so that it can be developed. There are different stages of calm and as calm becomes stronger, samådhi also develops (2). *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life Chapter 22. 2) In the beginning stage of calm there is still preparatory concentration (parikamma-samådhi) (Vis. IV, 31-33). When calm has reached the degree that it is approaching jhåna there is access-concentration (upacåra-samådhi). When jhåna has been attained there is at that moment samådhi which is attainment-concentration(appanå-samådhi). ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41407 From: Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/27/2005 7:40:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: As you say, concepts are mind-object, meaning that they are object of a moment of consciousness. But, and this is the important difference, they are also a creation of that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object. All other mind-objects are dhammas of one kind or another that are arising and falling away independently of being the object of consciousness at that moment. This is readily seen I think (intellectually) in the case of dhammas such as visible object and sound, but applies equally where the mind-object is another (immediately past) moment of consciousness or an aspect of it such as anger or attachment or feeling. So I would see concepts as being in a different category to all other mind-objects. Jon Hi Jon I think its being made overly complicated by most of these arguments/positions. I see it differently than you put it above. (Unfortunately, the below paragraph a little complicated too.) The mind stores memories as "potential concepts." (The concepts are potential, but the memories are real impressions.) These "potential concepts" arise as a cognitive event (arisen concepts) when the mind pays attention to them (the memory impressions) and such contact is established. Just as a "potential visual object" (that is not currently being seen) becomes an "arisen visual object" when the mind pays attention to it and such contact is established. There's no difference. They are both formed and experienced as forces and conditions. Just as a "mountain" (as an example) is altering according to conditions, and changing accordingly; so too are memories altering according to conditions, and changing accordingly. Different conditions alter at different rates. Though a concept may seem to last only a brief moment, and a mountain might appear relatively unchanged for hundreds of years, they are both subject to change. There's nothing "magically different" about concepts. They're just another type of condition. They conform to the principles of Dependent Origination. One might think that concepts disappear and make no lasting impression. But I still have Sarah's "purple elephant" in my head. ;-) The techologies that are at our "beck and call" could not have arisen without concepts. That's a lot of "lasting" impact. TG 41408 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Larry, op 28-01-2005 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I don't think we are communicating on this question. The problem might > be different ways of understanding the word 'experience'. N: I see what you mean, the word experience is very wide. For precision, let me review classes of objects (see my ADL, Ch 16): five classes include the sense objects. The sixth class is dhammaarama.na, that can be experienced only through the mind-door. This class includes: the five sense organs, subtle rupas, citta, cetasika, nibbaana and concepts. The word experience may denote: noting, cognizing without pañña or with pañña, or thinking of it. I catch myself thinking of I who notices, but in fact it is only citta that notices. We are so used to a self who notices, even though we do not realize this. It happens unknowingly. Here the classifcations of the Abhidhamma can help us. Which citta experiences which object and when. L: When I ask > when in mind door process do we experience a cetasika you answer in the > javana series. What this says to me is that we react to a cetasika in > the javana series. > Let's simplify and ask when do we experience a feeling? Suppose there is > the experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. N: Unpleasant bodily feeling arises and it experiences an unpleasant tangible object. It is only one moment of vipaakacitta accompanied by this feeling that is also vipaaka. Feeling itself experiences this object. But we are so used to think of me who experiences that we ask ourselves when and where. Let us consider the whole subject in an impersonal way, otherwise we become confused. This is quite a correction of attitude and not easy. That is why I started with the above classification. We should apply this when we consider experiences. The aim is to see anatta. But had the Buddha not taught this, we would not know and be confused forever. L: Where do we locate that experience of feeling in citta process? N: Experience of feeling, this can be interpreted in different ways. 1: The experience which is feeling: if it is bodily feeling it accompanies body-consciousness and arises in the body-door process. Also in that process there are javanacittas which may be akusala cittas (dislike of the unpleasant object) or kusala cittas. 2. I think you refer to this meaning of . Feeling, in this case bodily feeling, can be the object of cittas arising later on in a mind-door process, and these may notice the bodily feeling that just arise before. But, first there is a mind-door process of cittas that experience the same unpleasant object as the preceding sense-door process. Thus, many processes follow upon each other extremely fast, and there are bhavangacittas in between. There is bound to be confusion, because it all seems to occur at the same time. But in reality it does not. L: Alternately, suppose I dislike that feeling. Where do we locate in citta > process the experience of unpleasant mental feeling that arises with the > dislike? N: You dislike a feeling, whatever it may be, or citta with aversion takes as object feeling. In a mind-door process. See classification above: it helps for orientation. Otherwise we may get lost in our thinking. L: Does that mental feeling as experience arise in a following > citta process after the citta process in which the dislike arose? N: Suppose in a sense-door process javanacittas with aversion and unpleasant mental feeling arise after the body-consciousness accompanied by unpleasant bodily feeling. Cittas arising in a following mind-door process can cognize or note, thus take as object: dosa or unpleasant mental feeling, or unpleasant bodily feeling, or the unpleasant hardness or heat. Many objects, but only one at a time is cognized by citta. Nobody can direct cittas and objects, it is all very fast. Impermanent and anatta. L In the case of neither the bodily feeling nor the mental feeling is > feeling an object of consciousness when it first arises. Does that mean > it is not experienced then? N: Feeling always accompanies citta and it shares the same object as the citta, any of the six classes of objects, see above. At that very moment citta does not cognize itself, nor its accompanying feeling. They just experience the object that has presented itself. Feeling at that moment experiences, it experiences the flavour of the object. When you have the idea that you notice feeling right when it arises, this means, citta arising in a following process cognizes feeling. Again, quite a correction of our usual ideas. L: Is dislike experienced when it first arises? > It also is not an object of consciousness at that time. N: The same as above. Citta accompanied by aversion and unpleasant feeling experience an object they dislike. That object is experienced at that moment. The citta that is accompanied by dislike could not take that very dislike as object, because citta and cetasikas can experience only one object at a time. Nina. 41409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya and mutuality condition. Dear Steve, op 28-01-2005 01:27 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > wrote: >> Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence >> condition' the relationship can be seen in between >> >> a) 4 nama-kkhandhas >> b) 4 mahabhuta rupas >> c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa >> >> These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. > > Are these 3 examples the only situations where annamanna sahajata > paccaya can be found? N: The condition which is sahajaata-paccaya concerns many dhammas, and the mutuality condition only a few. As to c, there is a differentiation. At the first moment of our life, three dasakas, groups of rupa arise at the same time as rebirth-consciousness, but only the heart-base and the rebirth-consciousness condition one another by way of mutuality condition. It cannot be said of the bodysense or sex decad that arise at that time. The 4 great elements are related to each other by way of sahajata paccaya and mutuality but as to the derived rupas that arise together with these, there is no mutuality relation between the four great Elements and the derived rupas. You may like to get Guide to conditional Relations, U Narada. Nina. 41410 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya and mutuality condition. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Steve, > op 28-01-2005 01:27 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > > wrote: > >> Regarding 'annamanna sahajata paccaya' or 'mutuality conasence > >> condition' the relationship can be seen in between > >> a) 4 nama-kkhandhas > >> b) 4 mahabhuta rupas > >> c) okkantikkhana nama-rupa or patisandhi-nama-rupa > >> These dhammas arise together and depend on each other. > > Are these 3 examples the only situations where annamanna sahajata > > paccaya can be found? N: The condition which is sahajaata-paccaya concerns many dhammas, and the mutuality condition only a few. As to c, there is a differentiation. At the first moment of our life, three dasakas, groups of rupa arise at the same time as rebirth- consciousness, but only the heart-base and the rebirth-consciousness condition one another by way of mutuality condition. It cannot be said of the bodysense or sex decad that arise at that time.The 4 great elements are related to each other by way of sahajata paccaya and mutuality but as to the derived rupas that arise together with these,there is no mutuality relation between the four great Elements and the derived rupas.You may like to get Guide to conditional Relations, U Narada. Nina. > > Thanks > > Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your answer. With respect, Htoo 41411 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya Introduction --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Steve, > I am just butting in if I may. > At the moment of rebirth-consciousness the heartbase arises together with > citta and they condition one another by way of sahajaata-paccaya and > aññamañña-paccaya, but not during life. Then the heartbase has to arise > before the citta it conditions. Also eyebase has to arise before seeing > consciousness because rupa is too weak at its arising moment to serve as > base or as object. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Steve and All, Thanks Nina. I never assume dhamma discussion as butting in. Yes. It is only at the very time of patisandhi. So it is already modified as 'okkantikkhana'. Otherwise rupa and nama condition each other in other conditional relationship like prenascence or postnascence or other conditions. With respect, Htoo Naing 41412 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:22am Subject: Re: Modern day dissection of Buddhists' Meditation - Part 1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > The conversation between Khanti Khema and Htoo Naing continued at > dhammasukha site. kel: Interesting conversion but I don't think either of you will budge from your positions. I'm noticing the same pattern in various threads of people over-generalizing their position and expecting everyone to think in the same way. Khema's points are obviously from their teacher since it's repetition of his book. I don't see why to show merits of a particular way or technique, one has to devalue others? Is it because it's insufficient by itself and by lowering everything else it can be seen as higher? Everyone is at their own stage of development and as long as they're trying to follow the teachings, I don't see a problem with it. I'm feeling like a waste of time to discuss these finer points as they really have no impact on one's ultimate goal. I did remember one categorization of suitability of four satipatthana methods for different types of people. Kaya - high tanha and low wisdom Vedana - high tanha and high wisdom Citta - high ditthi and low wisdom Dhamma - high ditthi and high wisdom Maybe some people prefer anatta because it's directly opposite of ditthi and so emphasis is on dhammanupassana. That is perhaps reflected in their inclination to see the ultimate realities. I guess it's hard to not show bias in everything we discuss. Perhaps we're too quick to blame the techniques without considering our incompatibilities or inadequacies. Quite a few people in Burma go from one center to another surveying different techniques. Then they argue the pros and cons of different approaches without really having tried them to the fullest. The worst is probably making conjectures of something they never even tried but somehow are experts of it. - Kelvin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thank you very much for your kind and fully revealed message. I understand what you want to mean. I know. Khema has a good nature. But when I cannot reveal her as you did now to us (Khema and me) I have just to say 'things are going on their own'. You know. I avoided here Pali equivalent. Some old members even think that 'things are going on their own' is a swearing word. When layers are very thick they have to break with dynamite. At that time there do have hurting. But I hardly use dynamite. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: The pair tried to promote but when not succeed they retreated.:-) 41413 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (246) Dear Dhamma Friends, In a dying being there is a racing competition of kamma. Actaully these events are part and parcel of arising and passing away matter of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma. If arising is 'at the very beginning of a life' that arising is called 'patisandhi'. Pati means 'again' and 'sandhi' means 'linking' 'sticking' 'joining'. At other time these arising and passing away of dhamma are said to be 'happening at pavatti kala'. Kala means 'time' 'era' 'period'. When a being is just going to die there is a racing of kamma. Once there was a rich man and he did a lot of kusala in his life time. But because of his old akusala there arose akusala vipaka as suffering of a deadly disease. All his children supported him to pass away at ease. They did kusala actions on behalf of their father. They invited sanghas or monks to their father's home and offered feeding to those monks. Monks gave a good blessing and preached dhamma. At that time the father is dying. They invited monks to create good marana-asanna kamma. In the middle of dhamma preaching the father shouted 'Please stop! Please stop!'. The monks stop preaching dhamma. At that time the father asked why they stopped dhamma preaching and again monks bearing compassion continued to preach dhamma. Again the father shouted 'Please stop! Please stop!'. The monks stopped. The father asked why they stopped dhamma preaching. Soon he passed away. He had a good nature. He did kusala in his life time. He had enough kusala kamma to be reborn in sugati bhumi or profitable realm. His children were all worried because of their father behaviour. Actually the father is seeing 'a deva vehicle driven by devas and devas were waiting for him'. This is rupa-arammana. Actually he stopped devas for a while because he was listening to dhamma preaching. But no one saw devas and they believed their father was confused and weak and out of mental order and so he stopped the monks. The father was reborn in deva realm. Near dying there is a racing competition of kamma. Regarding these kamma there are 4 kinds of kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma 2. asanna kamma 3. acinna kamma 4. katattaa kamma Lahu means 'light' while garu means 'heavy'. Garuka kamma are very heavy kamma. They are so heavy that no other kamma can hinder them. Example kamma are rupa jhana kusala kamma and arupa jhana kusala kamma. They give rise to rebirth in rupa brahma and arupa brahma respectively. Regarding akusala kamma there are anantariya kamma. They are 1. killing own father 2. killing own mother 3. killing arahats 4. division of the Sangha 5. bruising to The Live Buddha These akusala kamma are so heavy that as soon as being concerned die they have to be reborn in avici-niraya bhumi or hell realm of the worst station. If there is no such garuka kamma then 'kamma' that have been done near dying come first. If there is no such kamma then 'kamma' that were committed in this life time but not necessarily near dying come first. If there is no such many kamma then 'kamma' in the previous lives including the whole samsara in the past come up. Again as there were many many kamma they race and finally one kamma succeeds over the other and it serves as final kamma in this life time by creating marana-asanna-javana citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41414 From: nina Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:45am Subject: Pilgrimage India, 3 f Pilgrimage India, 3 f Nåma and rúpa are impersonal elements. We should remember the words of the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the third Book of the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on Elements (Dhåtu-Kathå, P.T.S.): "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have brought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions." When I was standing next to Acharn Sujin in Savatthí near the place of the Buddha¹s dwelling, I said that I kept on thinking with attachment to whatever I experience. She answered that it is helpful to remember that there are conditions for all dhammas that occur, and that thinking is only a conditioned dhamma. All situations in our life can be a test for our understanding, no matter we have pleasant or sorrowful experiences. Satipatthåna can be developed naturally in daily life so that we come to understand our accumulated wholesome and unwholesome inclinations. Eventually these can be known as non-self. Through satipatthåna we learn that whatever is experienced are only nåmas and rúpas arising because of conditions. The four applications of mindfulness are not theory, but pertain to everyday life and basic human behaviour. The understanding of our life as nåma and rúpa will lead to more patience when we face difficult situations and to more tolerance in our dealings with others. If we do not develop understanding we shall be lost in pleasure, we shall stay in the ocean of ignorance and clinging. Dhamma should be our island in this ocean. ******* Nina. 41415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas'- Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Hello Phil, op 28-01-2005 00:07 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Getting ahead of things, but can anyone explain in a nutshell what > the difference is between this wise concentration and wise attention, > another cetasika, which we will be seeing in an upcoming chapter? N: Manasikaara cetasika arises with each citta, kusala, akusala, or indeterminate. The word wise attention is not used for this cetasika, but, as we shall see, wise attention refers to citta, the mind-door adverting consciousness which is then followed by kusala cittas. There are three manasikaaras, two are cittas, one is cetasika. Also the Tiika of the Vis. deals with these. Manasikaara cetasika joins citta and cetasika to the object whereas concentration sees to it that each citta focusses on only one object. >> Ph: ....(snip) I must > say, predictably, that concentration as a universal cetasika that > arises with every citta doesn't satisfy my culturally- conditioned > assumption of what the Buddha meant by Right Concentration. N: Right concentration is wholesome, it is developed in samatha and in vipassana it arises with right understanding, by conditions. In samatha the aim is calm that is freedom from infatuation with sense objects. In vipassana it is a factor of the eightfold Path that arises together with right understanding of the eightfold Path. Ph: But if I > think of Right Concentration as a series of citta processes that > follow one after another with ease (sukha) as condition(along with > the fulfillment of the many other conditions that are necessary for > kusala) it is easier to understand. N: Pleasant feeling, sukha, is mentioned as a jhanafactor. We have to consider it in this context. It is the proximate cause of samadhi in the case of four stages of rupa-jhana, not the fifth stage. Ph: If 15 minutes of concentration on > a wholesome Dhamma related topic arises it is actually a very long > chain of very brief moments of right concentration conditioned by one > another? (Of course with many, many moments where there is wrong > concentration when the wholesome topic falls away again and again?) N: I would rather stress understanding, also in samatha. Precise, thorough understanding of kusala citta as being different from akusala citta. The subject itself is not kusla and it does not fall away since it is a concept. Ph: And for there to be right concentration in this sense, there must > be right understanding of realities? N: sati-sampajañña, sati and right understanding of the level of samatha. Thus, understanding of one's different cittas and of true calm, and of the way how to attain calm with the meditation subject. Ph: Therefore, right concentration > in this sense would be a very rare thing. Again, this would go > against my cultural assumptions, but having one's cultural > assumptions broken down is central to understanding Dhamma. N: Yes, the outlook is altogether different. But some people like to adapt the Dhamma to their way of thinking. It is hard to give up what one is used to. Nina. 41417 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:23pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James and Ken O., > Jhana is the eight factor and the culmination of the Noble Eightfold > Path- there is simply no getting around that. Anyone who is familiar > with the original teachings of the Buddha has to admit that or > he/she is clearly in denial. James, the above passage ( from your message # 41400) assures me of my correct understanding that sama-samadhi is the attainment of the four rupa-jhanas that are supported by the previous 7 Path factors. Indeed, the Buddha repeated such definition over and over in several discourses. He did not say anything like Ken O. stated in his message # 41382 as follows: > Please read the email > I send to James on the difference on jhanas by an ariyan and a > ordinary person. The jhanas are the same but the result are different > because one is pre-conditioned by panna while the other is > just kusala behavior without panna. So it may have been Ken's own extension beyond the Buddha's words. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > It took you a long time to respond to this thread. I hope you are > not too busy and are keeping well. > > The teachers Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta did not teach the 41418 From: nowtide Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:37am Subject: Greetings Greetings and appologies to those of you who may be on another list and have already received a similar e-mail from me but Im hoping to find the best fit for me in terms of a group to discuss practice issues. My name is Chris, Ive just signed up and am looking forward to practicing with this virtual Sangha. My reason for joining is related to my wanting to re start my meditation practice after about a year. About 1.5 years ago I had a very intense experience on a Vipassana retreat. I have done a few but never had anythin that intense happen before. After that experience I felt myself rejecting Buddhism and meditation in general. I switched practices and began focussing on a Jhana practice with some success. I am ready to begin doing Vipassana again and am hoping to get some advice and clarification related to my exoerience, is this an acceptable forum to discuss such experiences? A question that has arisen out of my Shamatha practice after reading something by Bhante Gunaratana. Bhante G says that it is beneficial to access first Jhana before turning to Vipassana. My question is: Is it possible to practice Vipassana IN first Jhana? Or does one enter first Jhana and then retract into Access COncentration at which point one can turn to Vipassana? From my experience with Jhana it does not seem so compatible with Vipassana inthat I am unable to observe the three characteristics in anything while in absorption. I find doing so deminishes the experience and I find myself in Access concentration. Chris 41419 From: nowtide Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 0:49pm Subject: jhanas My question is related to the dry vs. wet Vipassana debate. From those who I have spoken to that have done the dry insight practice. That is Vipassana without Jhana practice as taught in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. They describe an experience that sounds a lot like my experience of being in Jhana- actually the bliss and intensity sounds like it is much deeper than what I feel when in Jhana. My question is: Is this Jhana? Can momentary concentration from the Mahasi method result in Jhana? If it is not Jhana then what exactly are they experiencing given that their description matches that of Jhana? Chris 41420 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/27/05 7:17:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Kamma is just cause and effect. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Kamma, as the Buddha described it, is intention - not more nor less. There are other causes (better - "conditions") besides one's kamma. ------------------------------------ If kamma can influence the mind, it> > will be kamma first and not ignorance first as in D.O. ----------------------------------- Howard: No reason for that at all. Kamma is indeed conditioned by ignorance. ----------------------------------- > The > exhaustion of rebirth is only through the extinguishing of kamma > which in turns is only possible through the eradication of the > latency of the roots. ------------------------------------ Howard: So? Indeed, ignorance is to be uprooted. ------------------------------------ In one of the sutta, I remember it was said> > that the view that our present action is determined by the cause of > our past action is a false view. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't get the point. ----------------------------------- > > Ken O > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41421 From: Philip Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 b Hello Nina and all > Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black curtain, > they prevent us from seeing realities as they are. When we see, it always > seems that we see people and things, whereas in reality only visible object > can impinge on the eyesense. It seems unlikely that this will change in the short run (ie a few lifetimes.) How can it when it is so deeply accumulated? And there is our cultural environment that only makes it more difficult. The truth that in the absolute sense there are no people is basic Dhamma that can be learned from one's first brush with the Khandas, but there is such resistance to it. We have to live in the world and deal with the world's values (most of us) and this will be far more likely to darken the curtain. This is why the Buddha stressed heedfulness in his final words. Moment by moment by moment our ignorance is deepening rather than lightening - unless we are heedful. There is no time to waste. Even during the minute or so it took me to type this there has been so much ignorance even though I might think that typing a Dhamma-related paragraph involves wisdom. Well, there is some of that too. Moha and amoha coming and going, beyond my control, due to conditions. Heedfulness with respect to this! The world is on fire through the six doors. >We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but > when there is awareness and understanding we are on the island of Dhamma, > the island of satipatthåna. We read in the Parinibbåna Sutta (Wheel > Publication, 67-69) that the Buddha spoke about his old age, and exhorted > Ånanda: > > ³Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto > yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, > the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge... I must admit that this is one of the teachings that I never quite "get." The idea of refuge is a bit dangerous, I think, if it is not accompanied by right understanding, and for me there is not enough right understanding to be able to have refuge yet. There is no refuge except right understanding of realities, and that doesn't happen because the Buddha tells us to do it. We can be heedful because the Buddha tells us to do it, if the conditions are right. In reality, isn't the island an island which is constantly being overswept by giant waves of ignorance, which recede and leave us on dry land momentarily before they come roaring up to drown out right understanding again and again and again? That's the way it feels for me, anyways. There is not yet anything a true refuge from the subtle suffering caused by feeding on thoughts of past and future, even if I say that I have taken refuge in the Buddha's teaching. > Satipatthåna is the development of understanding of all physical phenomena > and mental phenomena that appear, for the purpose of realizing them as > non-self. Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls away > immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, but > because of saññ?E remembrance of former experiences, we think of people and > things and these seem to last. This is wrong remembrance of self, > att?Esaññ These remembrances and anticipations. They consume me all day, with only very rare moments when something resembling right understanding (in theory) returns to subdue them momentarily. And then they return. Don't get me wrong. I'm not discouraged. Being able to see the way this goes on is already a step in the right direction. Metta, Phil p.s thanks for your responses in the Cetasika corner, Nina. I've printed them out and will be reflecting on them. 41422 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/ Hi, Robert (and TG) - In a message dated 1/27/05 8:19:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear TG, > A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was > invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are > really Buddha vacca. > I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: > The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is > "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, > Kevatta Suttam, > Silakkhandhavagga, > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Robert, I never expected to see the day that you would be quoting that consciousness-unmanifestive-luminous-all-around material in defense of anything! ;-) I agree that nibbana might well be thought of as a mode of luminous, boundless experience with no manifestation of knowing subject. And that would be nama. ----------------------------------------- > If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it > being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? > It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by > citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called > vinnanam for this same reason. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Here I disagree. Hardness and sights are known by citta as well, right? So they should also be classified as nama by that line of reasoning. ----------------------------------------- > Robert > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41423 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon (and TG) - In a message dated 1/27/05 10:39:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > > TG (and Howard) > > I'd just like to add my 2 bits to this interesting discussion. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > ... > >Hi Howard > > > >All states are "multifaceted." We can't speak of anything if we > want to take > >the point of view that there is "no single thing." However, the > Buddha > >managed to break it down into -- mind-object, mind, and mind- > consciousness. > >Concepts are mind-object. > > As you say, concepts are mind-object, meaning that they are object > of a moment of consciousness. But, and this is the important > difference, they are also a creation of that very moment of > consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of > consciousness of which they are the object. > > All other mind-objects are dhammas of one kind or another that are > arising and falling away independently of being the object of > consciousness at that moment. This is readily seen I think > (intellectually) in the case of dhammas such as visible object and > sound, but applies equally where the mind-object is another > (immediately past) moment of consciousness or an aspect of it such > as anger or attachment or feeling. > > So I would see concepts as being in a different category to all > other mind-objects. > > Jon > ========================= I don't see this matter at all as you do, Jon. The way you describe concepts here is almost *exactly* the way I would describe paramattha dhammas. (That is: Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object.) And I do not accord even this degree of reality to concepts! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41424 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Nina, Here's the way I see it: N: "1: The experience which is feeling: if it is bodily feeling it accompanies body-consciousness and arises in the body-door process." This is exactly what I am talking about. Feeling IS experience. It is misleading to say feeling experiences some other dhamma. An object of consciousness is a condition for the arising of that consciousness (or cetasika), but, as object, the object is not an experience. An unpleasant bodily feeling arises as experience and conditions the arising of aversion. When aversion arises there is no experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. Similarly, the experience which is bodily feeling is not the experience that is body consciousness and the experience that is body consciousness is not rupa, and rupa is not an experience. If we take this view it seems to me there are multiple simultaneous experiences that are cetasikas arising in any given moment. I think the reason it seems like we experience only one thing at a time is because of deluded perception. Perception will take one dhamma of many that arise to act as symbol or sign to represent the 'whole' group. Often this one sign then becomes a condition for the arising of another group of experiences (cetasikas). There may be problems with the role of perception here. Maybe there is a better way to explain it. In the specific case of 'taking an object of consciousness', as in jhana, perhaps we could say a repeated clear sign is the condition for the jhana factors to arise (simultaneously) rather than saying the jhana factors experience the sign. The sign is an experience and the jhana factors are experiences but it doesn't make sense to me to say one experience experiences another experience. Larry 41425 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings Hi Chris, Welcome to the group. C: "My question is: Is it possible to practice Vipassana IN first Jhana? Or does one enter first Jhana and then retract into Access COncentration at which point one can turn to Vipassana?" L: My understanding is that it is not possible to practice vipassana while in jhana except for one special case, when emptiness is the object of jhana. Emptiness here is the experience that is the reality of empty of permanence, or empty of desire, or empty of self. This is not an ordinary object condition so it might take some time and study to develop it. Larry 41426 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/ In a message dated 1/27/2005 5:19:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: Dear TG, A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are really Buddha vacca. I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called vinnanam for this same reason. Robert Hi Robert I didn't see your post until I happened to read Howard's reply. I'm flattered that you would think that I know Pali well enough to be able to understand a whole line of very complex material without needing an English translation. But unfortunately not. I'm going to comment on your comments in the post Howard responded to and use his translation there as a base. Cya there. TG 41427 From: Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert In a message dated 1/28/2005 3:59:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, Robert (and TG) - In a message dated 1/27/05 8:19:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear TG, > A couple of weeks ago you explained that you think Abhidhamma was > invented by later monks but that you do trust that the Nikayas are > really Buddha vacca. > I take these quotes from the Digha Nikaya: > The Digha Nikaya says Nibbana is > "Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Section 499, > Kevatta Suttam, > Silakkhandhavagga, > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Robert, I never expected to see the day that you would be quoting that consciousness-unmanifestive-luminous-all-around material in defense of anything! ;-) I agree that nibbana might well be thought of as a mode of luminous, boundless experience with no manifestation of knowing subject. And that would be nama. ----------------------------------------- > If that is said in the suttas why would are you concerned about it > being classified under nama in Abhidhamma? > It is classfied as nama only in that sense that it is known by > citta, by vinnana, that is all. Just as in the sutta it is called > vinnanam for this same reason. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Here I disagree. Hardness and sights are known by citta as well, right? So they should also be classified as nama by that line of reasoning. ----------------------------------------- > Robert > ===================== With metta, Howard Hi Robert (and Howard) Here's the whole passage translated to English by Walshe.... "Where do earth, fire, water, and air no footing find? Where are long and short, small and great, fair and foul -- Where are name-and-form wholly destroyed? The answer is: "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous, That's where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing, There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -- There name-and-form are wholly destroyed. With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed." End Quote The all-luminous passage is a curiousity. I think it may occur only twice in the Suttas. And according to Walshe's note, the translation of "luminous" is in question. However, assuming that it is accurate, this is the only indication I am aware of in the Suttas that even suggests or hints at some "continuing state" beyond parinibbana. But I'll admit that it is fodder for that viewpoint. ("Luminous" may also be a way of saying "pure" but I'm speculating.) With that said, if the quote is examined, it can be seen that twice it says that -- "name-and-form are WHOLLY DESTROYED." It also says that -- "With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed." # 1 If I compare the obscureness of "luminous" with these direct clearly stated pronouncements...I'll go with the directly stated pronouncements. # 2 I don't see how a "nama" that is wholly destroyed, can still be considered a nama. # 3 The vast majority of the Canon that speaks to this issue speaks about the cessation of name-and-form. These are the reasons I base my thinking on. With this said, I wonder what your reflections are on the matter? TG 41428 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 111 - Concentration/ekaggataa (g) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Ekaggatå cetasika which accompanies rúpåvacara citta (rúpajhånacitta) is altogether different from ekaggatå arising with kåmåvacara citta, citta of the sense-sphere. In each of the higher stages of jhåna there is a higher degree of calm and thus ekaggatå becomes more refined. Ekaggatå which accompanies arúpåvacara citta is different again: it is more tranquil and more refined than ekaggatå arising with rúpåvacara citta. There is also sammå-samådhi of vipassanå. As we have seen, the second manifestation of ekaggatå cetasika or samådhi mentioned by the Atthasåliní is knowledge or wisdom. When paññå knows a nåma or a rúpa as it is, there is at that moment also right concentration performing its function. Sammå-samådhi is one of the factors of the eightfold Path. When paññå knows, for example, the visible object which presents itself as only a rúpa appearing through the eyes or the seeing which presents itself as only a nåma which experiences visible object, there is also right concentration at that moment: sammå samådhi focuses on the object in the right way. When sammå-samådhi accompanies lokuttara citta, sammå-samådhi is also lokuttara and it focuses on nibbåna. Then sammå-samådhi is a factor of the supramundane eightfold Path (lokuttara magga). ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41429 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:12pm Subject: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > > Like most beginner Westerners would I come to this group with the > idea of concentration being something that is maintained over a > longer period of time, by a kind of will power, rather than something > that arises with every citta in a conditioned way, and is either > wholesome or unwholesome, depending on conditions. Therefore I must > say, predictably, that concentration as a universal cetasika that > arises with every citta doesn't satisfy my culturally- conditioned > assumption of what the Buddha meant by Right Concentration. _____________________ Dear Phil, Good points. It is not difficult to have concentration- you can take any object, such as breath, and focus on it; do it with enough energy and poerful levels of concentration will occur. What is difficult is having right concentration. So its useful to know what wrong concentration is: In the Dhammasangani under Akusala dhammas 386- What is the power of concentration? That which is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, unshakeableness, non-distraction, imperturabilty, tranqulity of mind, the faculty of concentration, power of concentration, WRONG concentration- this is at that time the power of concentration. This type of wrong concentration is tranquil and powerful - but it arises with lobha (attachment). It can be very nice and peaceful. Robertk 41430 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:09pm Subject: Universal Friendliness ... !!! Friends: The 11 Advantages of cultivating Friendliness, Amity & Goodwill. The 11 benefits, 11 profits, 11 effects, the 11 results of developing the: The four Brahma Viharas The four Divine States The four Supreme States The four Boundless States in short METTA The Blessed Buddha said: 'Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it, frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the base, the medium , the foundation, by persisting in it, by making it a good habit, by being well established in it. What are these eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy ! One wakes up Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison nor Weapon ! One swiftly Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment nor Panic ! One reappears after death as a Divine Brahma if gone no higher here! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Unlimited & Universal Friendliness, by cultivating Infinite, Immeasurable & Inestimable Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making it Endless & Limitless, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by maintaining it continuously, by properly consolidating it, securing it, stabilizing it, by thoroughly undertaking it, refining & perfecting it, by making it a familiar habit, an automatic reflex by so being indeed quite well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected...!' Source: The Numerical Sayings (Anguttara Nikaya) V [342]. The book of the elevens. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 41431 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings Hi Chris (N), Welcome to DSG. You're most welcome to discuss your experiences and ask any questions here. I'll look forward to any following discussions. --- nowtide wrote: > My reason for joining is related to my wanting to re start my > meditation practice after about a year. > > About 1.5 years ago I had a very intense experience on a Vipassana > retreat. I have done a few but never had anythin that intense > happen before. After that experience I felt myself rejecting > Buddhism and meditation in general. I switched practices and began > focussing on a Jhana practice with some success. > > I am ready to begin doing Vipassana again and am hoping to get some > advice and clarification related to my exoerience, is this an > acceptable forum to discuss such experiences? .... S: I think it might be helpful for you and others to look a little deeper at what is meant by some of the terms you use here (meditation, vipassana, jhana etc) a little more deeply. For example, vipassana (as used in the Buddhist texts) refers to the development of wisdom or insight. Rather than reading about 'vipassana retreats' or 'doing vipassana', we read about developing insight at the present moment by developing awareness and understanding of present dhammas. Meditation practice or bhavana in Pali refers to the development of samatha (calm) and vipassana (insight). Do you think we can talk about meditation at this moment when there are very ordinary experiences now as we read and type? I mention this because I think the practice always has to come back to the present moment, rather than special times with special experiences. What do you say? In any case, please 'hang in' with us here, just read the posts which are meaningful to you initially and follow your own threads as you're doing. Best wishes and metta, Sarah ========= 41432 From: cosmique Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert ----------The all-luminous passage is a curiousity. I think it may occur only twice in the Suttas. And according to Walshe's note, the translation of "luminous" is in question. However, assuming that it is accurate, this is the only indication I am aware of in the Suttas that even suggests or hints at some "continuing state" beyond parinibbana. But I'll admit that it is fodder for that viewpoint. ("Luminous" may also be a way of saying "pure" but I'm speculating.)----------- Dear Dhamma-friends, In his book “Concept & Reality” Bhikkhu Nanananda identifies this luminous state and the above verse about no-fire, no-earth, etc. with arahatta-phala-samadhi. Destruction or cessacion of nama–rupa according to his interpretation is nothing but destruction of concepts of nama-rupa in that state of consciousness. Fire, earth etc. that find no footing means absence of the concepts of fire, earth, etc. in that state of mind. In general, he interprets the deep verses about nibbana (like Udana 80) psychologically rather than metaphysically which can solve a great deal of misunderstandings. With metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41433 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Meditation - Pali terms Hi Htoo (& KK), You posted a comment that 'in one post on the DSG site..one well respected teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not advocate meditation as a part of this path at all!...' ...and your reply, Htoo, was ":-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth'. But smiling and shutting your mouth says a lot already :-). Now I don't think these would be A.Sujin's (or Nina's) words. What you will often hear A.Sujin asking is 'what is meditation?' or 'what do you mean by meditation?' 'Can there be meditation now?' etc. Nina will also start looking at the meaning of the Pali words such as samatha, vipassana, bhavana and so on. Why don't you help us all out by giving more detail and breakdown of all the Pali terms as used in the texts and Abhidammattha Sangaha which you understand to be translated as 'meditation' when you smile and shut your mouth :-) (lots of smiling meditation here, I see - fond memories of smiling conversations;-)) so that we can check whether there is any disagreement or not. Perhaps we can also learn more about what meditation really is, especially at the present moment (which as you'll agree, is of course all there ever is). Thx in advance. Look forward to your clarifications and explanations. Metta, Sarah ====== 41434 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:15am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 b Dear Phil, Nina and all, have'nt been at the computor for what seems like ages due to sore eyes, among other excuses :-) but hopefully new glasses will assist..... so hope I'm not going over old ground here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Nina and all > > > Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black > curtain, > > they prevent us from seeing realities as they are. > When we see, it always > > seems that we see people and things, whereas in reality only > visible object > > can impinge on the eyesense. > > It seems unlikely that this will change in the short run (ie a few > lifetimes.) How can it when it is so deeply accumulated? > > Satipatthåna is the development of understanding of all physical > phenomena > > and mental phenomena that appear, for the purpose of realizing them > as > > non-self. Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls > away > > immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, > but > > because of saññ?E remembrance of former experiences, we think of > people and > > things and these seem to last. This is wrong remembrance of self, > > att?Esaññ > > These remembrances and anticipations. They consume me all day, > with only very rare moments when something resembling right > understanding (in theory) returns to subdue them momentarily. And > then they return. > Don't get me wrong. I'm not discouraged. Being able to see the way > this goes on is already a step in the right direction. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: the 'they consume me all day' hit a chord in me, and rather than being discouraged, I was confused. A few events over the past 2 weeks have 'brought out the worst in me' so to speak. Despite thinking 'but I should know better, I'm a student of the Dhamma, why am I being so mean to this person', I continued to be mean to that person. I hated myself for it which did not help, and now the mean feelings have gone and I'm pleasant to that person. I recall thinking during that time, that this is what uncontrollability is all about. Also, I remembered Acharn Sujin saying 'take all names away' and for me that meant that what was left was these unpleasant feelings, dosa, stinginess [oh, and occasionally I was nice to others :-) ], which produced pleasant feelings, kusala or akusala - who knows - only wisdom. And of course, there was lots of seeing, hearing etc in between. My lift to the movies has arrived - more later. Azita. 41435 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: Meditation - Pali terms Dear Htoo,Sarah, all Me too. :-):-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo (& KK), > > You posted a comment that 'in one post on the DSG site..one well respected > teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not > advocate meditation as a part of this path at all!...' > ...and your reply, Htoo, was ":-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth'. > > But smiling and shutting your mouth says a lot already :-). > > Now I don't think these would be A.Sujin's (or Nina's) words. What you > will often hear A.Sujin asking is 'what is meditation?' or 'what do you > mean by meditation?' 'Can there be meditation now?' etc. Nina will also > start looking at the meaning of the Pali words such as samatha, vipassana, > bhavana and so on. > > Why don't you help us all out by giving more detail and breakdown of all > the Pali terms as used in the texts and Abhidammattha Sangaha which you > understand to be translated as 'meditation' when you smile and shut your > mouth :-) (lots of smiling meditation here, I see - fond memories of > smiling conversations;-)) so that we can check whether there is any > disagreement or not. Perhaps we can also learn more about what meditation > really is, especially at the present moment (which as you'll agree, is of > course all there ever is). Thx in advance. > > Look forward to your clarifications and explanations. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 41436 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Robert (and Howard) > > Here's the whole passage translated to English by Walshe.... > > "Where do earth, fire, water, and air no footing find? Where are long and > short, small and great, fair and foul -- Where are name-and-form wholly > destroyed? > > The answer is: > > "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous, > That's where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing, > There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -- There > name-and-form are wholly destroyed. With the cessation of consciousness this is all > destroyed." End Quote > > The all-luminous passage is a curiousity. I think it may occur only twice in > the Suttas. And according to Walshe's note, the translation of "luminous" is > in question. However, assuming that it is accurate, this is the only > indication I am aware of in the Suttas that even suggests or hints at some > "continuing state" beyond parinibbana. But I'll admit that it is fodder for that > viewpoint. ("Luminous" may also be a way of saying "pure" but I'm speculating.) > > With that said, if the quote is examined, it can be seen that twice it says > that -- "name-and-form are WHOLLY DESTROYED." It also says that -- "With the > cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed." > > # 1 If I compare the obscureness of "luminous" with these direct clearly > stated pronouncements...I'll go with the directly stated pronouncements. # 2 I > don't see how a "nama" that is wholly destroyed, can still be considered a > nama. # 3 The vast majority of the Canon that speaks to this issue speaks about > the cessation of name-and-form. > > These are the reasons I base my thinking on. With this said, I wonder what > your reflections are on the matter? > > TG > ++++++++++++++++++ Dear TG, In fact of course yoiu are correct. Although in the suttas one of the name of Nibbana is Vinnanam, that does not mean it is any time of consciousness. It is the same situation as why the abhidhamma classifies it under nama (doesn't in anyway mean it is a type of mentality). After the khandha parinibbana of the arahant there is no more consciousness, no more mentaility, there are only the physcial remains (relics) Robertk 41437 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: Meditation - Pali terms --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo (& KK), You posted a comment that 'in one post on the DSG site..one well respected teacher of Abhidhamma even goes so far as to say that she does not advocate meditation as a part of this path at all!...' ...and your reply, Htoo, was ":-) :-)) :-))) I shut my mouth'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just for not to hurt anyone including myself and KK. When I am pouring down water that means 'I am pouring down water'. [Not idiom]. And when other person like KK pours down water that also means pouring down water. But the result of each action will not be the same. Because there are many conditions in performing so and so actions. I have heard from someone 'repeatedly saying the importance of meditating'. I also think out in the same way as you mentioned as A Sujin's and Nina's words. Without proper understanding any action will not be in right order. Sometimes there were challenging invitations. How dare you behave in this way! Come on! Let us compete how long we can sit still right now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: But smiling and shutting your mouth says a lot already :-). Now I don't think these would be A.Sujin's (or Nina's) words. What you will often hear A.Sujin asking is 'what is meditation?' or 'what do you mean by meditation?' 'Can there be meditation now?' etc. Nina will also start looking at the meaning of the Pali words such as samatha, vipassana, bhavana and so on. Why don't you help us all out by giving more detail and breakdown of all the Pali terms as used in the texts and Abhidammattha Sangaha which you understand to be translated as 'meditation' when you smile and shut your mouth :-) (lots of smiling meditation here, I see - fond memories of smiling conversations;-)) so that we can check whether there is any disagreement or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I got a message and stored. It is someone's admission that he or she is not proficient in Pali. I am not saying that I am proficient in Pali. I am just a beginner. This is not just self-humiliating remark to show my conceitlessness. I am really a beginner in Pali. As you know all 'Teachings of The Buddha' are in Pali as originality. Up to 6th Buddhists Council all teachings are in Pali. But in the 6th there were 2 sets for each of participant country. One is in Pali and another is in their respective own language. There is little difference in between these 5 countries of Sri Lanka, Thai, Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia. They use bilingually. Whenever I saw a message that 'jhana' appear 'such and such times' in Suttas and 'vipassana' does not appear to that extent, I was thinking what he or she was referring to Tipitaka. Actually I think these sort of people are doing research with the aid of computer among translated pure English texts. But in real term or actual term they seem not understand what jhana means, what vipassana means, what bhavana means, what kammatthana means, what kasina means etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Perhaps we can also learn more about what meditation really is, especially at the present moment (which as you'll agree, is of course all there ever is). Thx in advance. Look forward to your clarifications and explanations. Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I had been attacked severely that I was not proficient in English and I had problems with communication and I did not believe that matter I could ask someone who were native speakers like Christine, Robert K etc etc. When essential messages are not rightly extracted it will be futile to set up self-corrected self-adapted Buddhism. I said these because there are many who believe that it is sensible to adapt and change some parts of teaching to accommodate own culture. I do not believe so. In Myanmar Sayadaws teach in three methods regarding theory. One is in pure Pali and the second is in alternative Pali and Myanmar and the third is pure Myanmar. They do not change Pali. But they may change pure Myanmar as languages are always moving and changing. Examples are 'bad words' become 'good words' and 'decent words' become 'bad words'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41438 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup "nowtide" wrote: > > > I have a question related to the dry vs. wet Vipassana debate. > > From those who I have spoken to that have done the dry insight > practice. That is Vipassana without Jhana practice as taught in the > tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. They describe an experience that > sounds a lot like my experience of being in Jhana- actually the > bliss and intensity sounds like it is much deeper than what I feel > when in Jhana. > > My question is: Is this Jhana? Can momentary concentration from > the Mahasi method result in Jhana? > > If it is not Jhana then what exactly are they experiencing given > that their description matches that of Jhana? > > Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Chris, This will depend on how you understand different dhammas in the setting of realities that everyone can prove themselves. Jhana in simple word means 'staying still and unperturbed'. There are different jhanas. Examples 1. When someone has determined to get something with very strong attachment he will be striving to get what he wants and at the time of striving no one will be able to disturb him. When a thief has determined to steal the golden knife of the king, he will try everything possible to get it and when he is approaching to the place where the golden knife is placed, he is well in his lobha jhana. This is because there is a powerful jhanaga. It is called somanassa jhana and somanassa is one of jhananga of 7 jhananga dhammas. 2. When someone has determined to destroyed something for example to destroy a city by atomic bomb, he will try to do so. No one can hinder him and he is unperturbed and still in his dosa or anger. It is because there is a jhanaga called domanassa. When someone is in such state of continuous outburst of anger then he will be in that state for some time as long as conditions permit. He is unperturbed by any good advice or anything and he will still be in his domanassa jhana for some time. 3. When someone is doing good things like offering he will be happy to do so and no one can hinder him not to offer things to his intended person of destination. In such state of mind there are many many cetasikas and cittas happen and they are associated with jhanaga and still this is a state of unperturbable setting and it can be called jhana again. Regarding meditative states there are many different conditions that make the meditators in stillness. Some stillness is really smart and nothing can perturb that state and it can be called jhana. So you questions need specific points to address what is for what etc etc. If jhanas are thought in connection with abhinna then it is obvious and evident that momentary concentration is not such jhana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41439 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James Please look at a sutta in MN known as the noble search where Buddha learnt the jhanas from the two masters. One must go through the material jhanas before entering the immaterial jhanas. I have not seen a sutta quote where one can directly go to the immaterial jhanas without going through the material jhanas. If you come across one, please let me know, because it will good to know such things do happen. Jhanas is right concentration if and only if the first seven are right, which means there must be right understanding first. One cannot enter a jhana (a buddhist jhana) without at least the aloof of sensual pleasure which means there must be right understanding, right sila etc. Jhana without right understanding as a percusor, is the same as the jhanas experience by the brahims at Buddha times. Ken O p.s. please look at other definition of samadhi :-) http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html 41440 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (247) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are continuous changing. One being dies here while another being is born there and if these events were seen it would be very shocking [sanvega]. There are many dying people around us. Let us think about a man dying with cancer. He is dying. In his last days there will be many thoughts arise in him. And he may or may not express these thoughts. If he express his thoughts they may indicate whay he had done in the current life. For example a retired professor is dying with cancer. In his last days he is frequently murmuring about his old work. It is a research work and he created disease models in small animals like guinea pigs and mice. He is seeing sufferings of those animals. So he shouted 'it is guinea pigs and not man'. This is the beginning of racing of kamma. At a time he may be thinking his goodness in invention of potent drugs and he will be smiling with the feeling that that is he who could do such work. Thoughts are racing endlessly. But near death one thought wins over other and marana-asanna-javana cittas arise taking respective object and then followed by cuti citta and then dies in the current life and the current life ceases to exist. As there are still many kamma there has ti continue another life as vipaka or result. When kamma are racing, the thoughts may have 'the same feeling as if he is committing the same kamma at the moment of dying'. In some people there arise different objects. For example the objects of associating kamma. If the kamma is paanaatipaata or killing then the being concerned may experience at the time of dying as 1. feeling as if he is committing that killing right now at the time of dying. 2. seeing of weaponry used in that killing, or seeing of beings who were killed. 3. seeing of the same kind of animal, its utrine wall, its surrounding, seeing of great fire etc etc. The number one is kamma. The number 2 indicates kamma-nimitta and the number 3 indicates gati-nimitta. When this happens then marana-asanna-javana cittas arise taking one of these objects and after the 5th marana-asanna-javana if there is no more extra moment there has to arise cuti citta or dying consciousness and after disappearance of that citta, the current life ceases to exist. Cuti citta in that current life and marana-asanna-javana cittas are not the same. Next life patisandhi citta has to arise because of these 5 marana-asanna-javana cittas. Because these 5 javana cittas are kamma generating cittas and because of this kamma there has to arise vipaka citta called patisandhi citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41441 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:09am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Tep Right concentration is not just concentration along. If it is concentration alone, a number of brahims will have been enlighted even before Buddha. It is only through wisdom that one is liberated. If concentration produces wisdom then those brahims will again as I said have been liberated as they attain the material and immaterial jhanas. Ken O 41442 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Howard Kamma is neuter, its good and bad depends on the roots that condition it. If kamma determines our future direction of the mind, then it will be kamma conditioning the arisen of wisdom or ignorance. If that is true, then kamma will determine our future good and bad action. That is Budda refuted as false view. It is not kamma that determines the direction of the mind, it is the roots that determine our direction of the mind. Ken O 41443 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:25am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon and Howard, >... Lodewijk said that some people are naturally inclined to some quiet time in >the morning, or they want time to think quietly. Like I try to listen early >morning to MP3. I need this as a reminder, otherwise I forget to relate >Dhamma to the present moment. But also in daily life itself, reading the >news, we receive reminders. My father says, he is losing his identity, and >this is a reminder: we all do, each split second. And he is old gae >personified. >And you listen while walking. Everybody has his own conditions. > > Yes, I listen to dhamma talks while walking, but of course that does not preclude wrong view coming into the picture (and it does!). And I think setting aside a time of day for a 'practice' of some kind, even a simple reflective kind of practice, is likely to be motivated by attachment to results and wrong view. But only the person him/her self can know to what extent wrong view is involved. I'm inclined to think that wrong view is present at a 'sub-conscious' level much of the time, meaning that it is arising and influencing our thinking but not arising so frequently or strongly as to be apparent to our (weak) awareness or understanding. Jon 41444 From: Waters Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:58am Subject: Re: jhanas Can you explain what you mean by dry vs. wet vipassana? I've never heard of vipassana being referred to as those terms. Regarding to your question, I think it takes a whole lot of practice to attain the first jhana, lifetimes even. Of course there are in rare cases like Gautama who reached the first jhana (If i'm not mistaken) at the age of 7. I also think that you should not dwell so much in the fact whether you have attained a certain jhana for that might lead to craving and attachment. :) []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nowtide" wrote: > > > My question is related to the dry vs. wet Vipassana debate. > > From those who I have spoken to that have done the dry insight > practice. That is Vipassana without Jhana practice as taught in the > tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. They describe an experience that > sounds a lot like my experience of being in Jhana- actually the > bliss and intensity sounds like it is much deeper than what I feel > when in Jhana. > > My question is: Is this Jhana? Can momentary concentration from > the Mahasi method result in Jhana? > > If it is not Jhana then what exactly are they experiencing given > that their description matches that of Jhana? > > Chris 41445 From: Waters Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:25am Subject: Hi! Greetings all Dhamma Friends, My name is Maya. I was born in Indonesia, but is currently living however I now reside in the US. I have been practicing vipassana for 4 years. Now, I am interested in learning more satipatthana, the Vipassana technique taught by Mahasi, and also the abhidhamma. :) []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 41446 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/29/05 7:09:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Tep > > Right concentration is not just concentration along. If it is > concentration alone, a number of brahims will have been enlighted > even before Buddha. It is only through wisdom that one is liberated. > If concentration produces wisdom then those brahims will again as I > said have been liberated as they attain the material and immaterial > jhanas. > > > > Ken O > ========================== The Buddha defined right concentration as the first 4 jhanas. Right concentration is one out of eight as regards the 8-fold path. It *is* a requisite condition for liberation. It cannot be dispensed with. It is not, however, a *sufficient* condition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41447 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by > >>‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, >>too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) >> >> >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Perhaps not. 'Recommend' is definitely what I mean. The Buddha put >forward a variety of conventional practices as useful and conducing to the good. >-------------------------------------- > > Yes, I know this is your contention about the teachings in general, but I think you would now agree that this sutta is not an example of the putting forward of such conventional practices. I say this not to prove any point but to pose the question why suttas often turn out to be saying something quite different from what we first took them to be saying. >>But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train >>oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We >>shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a >>straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for) >> >> >-------------------------------------- >Howard: > I agree completely that the Buddha was not simply advising "Just say >no!" or "Just don't do it!" The conventional practices recommended by the >Buddha - and I agree that there was some variation in them, tailored to individual needs - were many, complex, and often quite subtle. >--------------------------------------- > > But again, no such 'conventional practices' are actually recommended in this sutta (contrary to what you might have thought at the outset). >>which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to >>break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being >>recommended here? >> >> >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as >best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from akusala >as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging kusala >as possible. >--------------------------------------- > > But none of these are things mentioned in this sutta. It's interesting how, when one looks closely and carefully at what is said in the suttas, what we take at first sight to be an instruction to do conventional actions turns out to be neither an instruction nor a reference to conventional actions. This just bears out what we know already, that we are inclined to read suttas as supporting our own particular viewpoint. I think I've been very fortunate in having much of my own misreadings brought to my attentoin over the years. Jon 41448 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/29/05 7:21:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Kamma is neuter, its good and bad depends on the roots that condition > it. > --------------------------------------- Howard: That is analogous to saying that consciousness is neutral - that its being eye consciousness or ear consciousness etc depends on the conditioning sense door, with the implication that all consciousness is just consciousness. Not all consciousness is the same. Likewise not all kamma is the same. Ignorance conditions cetana (kamma), and the manner in which it is conditioned effects the nature of that cetana, and that in turn effects its consequences. If two dhammas are differently conditioned, it is not the case that the dhammas are the same but their conditioning "roots" different - the dhammas are then different as well. ------------------------------------------- If kamma determines our future direction of the mind, then it> > will be kamma conditioning the arisen of wisdom or ignorance. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Ignorance conditions kamma, and through that, all else. But recall that D.O. is a cyclic, not linear. The conditioninbg is manifold and complex. ----------------------------------------- If> > that is true, then kamma will determine our future good and bad > action. That is Budda refuted as false view. > --------------------------------------- Howard: What is false view is that ones past kamma *determines* current and future kamma. But it certainly conditions it. The point is that there are other factors at work as well, else that is past-action determinism in effect. Our being born as humans involves a host of conditions that affect our current volitions. That human birth was kamma vipaka. Thus, the prior kamma that led to this human birth was a distant condition affecting our current kamma. It is false that our current intentions, volitions, and actions are independent of prior intentions, volitions, and actions. There clearly is a dependency. What there is *not* is a deterministic, sole dependency. Conditionality is complex and multifaceted. ------------------------------------------------- It is not kamma that> > determines the direction of the mind, it is the roots that determine > our direction of the mind. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's like saying that it is not Saddam Hussein who tortured people, but his parents who gave birth to him. If marble A hits marble B, knocking it into marble C, it does not become false that marble B hot marble C. (Imagine if there is a line of colliding marbles with no beginning! Then your argument would conclude that there are no collisions at all.) ------------------------------------------------ > > Ken O > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41449 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry Larry wrote: >One little knot I found in my own logic is where I was talking about >two kinds of result of an intention, the kamma result sometime in the >future and the result of the action more or less in the present. That >result of an action is actually a kamma result of a past intention, >not the intention that initiated the action. If you think about it >this is extremely counter intuitive: the cup of tea that I supposedly >made I did not really make, rather, the cup of tea is the result of >an unknown intention that arose possibly in a former life. I don't >know what to say about this except that it points out the impractical >nature of the kamma theory. Any ideas? > > Well I'd certainly agree that much that we come across in the teachings is counter-intuitive, and in my own case that has usually indicated the presence of wrong view of one kind or another. Let's face it, knowing even the little we have come to know so far, it's obvious that our intuition is a most unreliable guide! Regarding your example of the cup of tea, we need to keep in mind that it is *experiencing through the sense-doors* that is the result of the former intention, for example, the seeing of visible object, tasting of taste, experiencing of heat, softness, etc. through the body-sense. So the cup of tea itself can never be the *result* of previous intention. I don't know if this makes the kamma theory any less 'impractical'? Jon 41450 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - Please forgive me. At this point it's been quite a while since this thread was initiated. I'm not certain which of the suttas you are asking about. I think you are pointing to #4? In any case, I no longer have the reference. Would you please provide the sutta to me. I'll look it it over to decide whether I think it - that particular sutta, taken as it is, without reading anything extrinsic into it - recommends conventional actions to be taken, and I'll report back to you. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/29/05 9:14:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >In a later post to Nina you explain in reference to sutta No. 4 that by > > > >>‘prescribe’ you mean ‘recommend’. 'Recommend' is how I would see it, > >>too. So perhaps we are not so far apart after all ;-)) > >> > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Perhaps not. 'Recommend' is definitely what I mean. The Buddha put > >forward a variety of conventional practices as useful and conducing to the > good. > >-------------------------------------- > > > > > > Yes, I know this is your contention about the teachings in general, but > I think you would now agree that this sutta is not an example of the > putting forward of such conventional practices. I say this not to prove > any point but to pose the question why suttas often turn out to be > saying something quite different from what we first took them to be saying. > > >>But do you see the sutta [No. 2] as telling us *how* one should 'train > >>oneself'? It seems to me it's not a matter of resolving to oneself 'We > >>shall not entertain any I-making …' etc, (which is what a > >>straight-forward, conventional reading of the passage would call for) > >> > >> > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I agree completely that the Buddha was not simply advising "Just say > >no!" or "Just don't do it!" The conventional practices recommended by the > >Buddha - and I agree that there was some variation in them, tailored to > individual needs - were many, complex, and often quite subtle. > >--------------------------------------- > > > > > > But again, no such 'conventional practices' are actually recommended in > this sutta (contrary to what you might have thought at the outset). > > >>which is why I suggested that the sutta identifies wisdom as the way to > >>break the bonds. What is your take on the conventional action being > >>recommended here? > >> > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > In simple terms: Paying careful attention, maintaining vigilance as > >best one can, and keeping in mind to carefully distinguish kusala from > akusala > >as best one can, avoiding further concocting of akusala and encouraging > kusala > >as possible. > >--------------------------------------- > > > > > > But none of these are things mentioned in this sutta. > > It's interesting how, when one looks closely and carefully at what is > said in the suttas, what we take at first sight to be an instruction to > do conventional actions turns out to be neither an instruction nor a > reference to conventional actions. This just bears out what we know > already, that we are inclined to read suttas as supporting our own > particular viewpoint. I think I've been very fortunate in having much > of my own misreadings brought to my attentoin over the years. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41451 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' Hi, Nina (and Larry and Phil) Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon, I had to laugh about moving the furniture with kusala citta, bumping >on a toe etc. >I like your examples of spontaneous kusala, and these are exactly what Larry >does, I have noticed. Especially c and d I noticed. He helped someone who >was in trouble and I appreciated this. He gave the link to Soma Thera, he >types Visuddhimagga himself considering this as bhavana. So this helps with >1 also, while he is working. > > Yes, I've noticed this also (and I tried to chose examples that Larry would find easy to relate to). I also liked Phil's comment recently of how we may overlook the everyday kusala in our desire to have more samatha or vipassana. Samatha especially can only be developed by learning more about the nature of the moments of kusala that occur naturally in our life now. >J: In very general terms, I was saying that kusala can, and does at times, > > >>arise without our intending it to do so. Have you ever (a) found >>yourself pondering over dhamma issues as you go about your daily >>routine, or (b) refrained from an adverse comment to someone because the >>thought popped into your mind that it just isn¹t necessary to say that, >>or (c) offered a friendly or reassuring comment to someone who appears >>to be uncomfortable or upset, or (d) on the spur of the moment offered >>your time or expertise to someone for their benefit? These are all >>instances of kusala arising without any sense of it being part of a >>Œpractice¹ or something to be made to occur. >> >> > >N: Good examples for daily life, appreciating the value of kusala. >I am thinking of Joop who likes the social aspect of Dhamma. I discussed >with Lodewijk that by knowing that we all are citta, cetasika and rupa, >arising because of conditions, our attitude to others changes. We become >more tolerant, although at times we fail. We at least see the value of >thinking less of self and more of others. > > I think this is quite so, and is very encouraging to notice in oneself (by reflecting on changes that have occurred over a period of time). > N: concentration skills: this should be together with pañña. When the > Buddha > >speaks about concentration this is always implied. It is different from >before the Buddha's time. >Jhana is not for everybody, we have to study the Visuddhimagga, lest we take >for jhana what is not truly jhana. > > Yes, and also because, although jhana is not for everyone, samatha does occur naturally in daily life just like other forms of kusala, and it is useful to know more about this at an intellectual level first. Thanks for the reminders. Jon 41452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >The mind stores memories as "potential concepts." (The concepts are >potential, but the memories are real impressions.) These "potential concepts" arise >as a cognitive event (arisen concepts) when the mind pays attention to them >(the memory impressions) and such contact is established. Just as a "potential >visual object" (that is not currently being seen) becomes an "arisen visual >object" when the mind pays attention to it and such contact is established. > >There's no difference. They are both formed and experienced as forces and >conditions. Just as a "mountain" (as an example) is altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly; so too are memories altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly. > > I'm sure this is a reasonably tenable position to take. But since your position is I assume more in the nature of an educated guess (although of course a well-educated one ;-)) than something verified by direct experience, I'm puzzled by the strength of your conviction that the 'abhidhamma' position is wrong. I'm wondering if the answer could lie in some deeply entrenched view you hold that clashes with the abhidhamma in some respect. There are for everyone such views that are not apparent but that nevertheless pervade the conscious thinking/reasoning. Just a thought. >One might think that concepts disappear and make no lasting impression. But >I still have Sarah's "purple elephant" in my head. ;-) The techologies that >are at our "beck and call" could not have arisen without concepts. That's a >lot of "lasting" impact. > > I think you explained before how the concept of "purple elephant" was first formed by the mind from 'separate' memories of (a) purple and (b) elephant. It's not clear to me how that concept could have any previous existence, presence or whatever you want to call it, whether as a 'cognitive event' or however, before the moment of its original conception by the mind. Jon 41453 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard Thanks for adding your comments to this thread. upasaka@a... wrote: > I don't see this matter at all as you do, Jon. The way you describe >concepts here is almost *exactly* the way I would describe paramattha dhammas. >(That is: Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they >are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' >outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object.) And I do not >accord even this degree of reality to concepts! > > We've probably been over this ground before ;-)), but what is the basis for the assertion that objects of consciousness are created at the very moment of consciousness, and have no 'existence' outside that moment? (Of course, I understand the position you take as a matter of principle that nothing outside the immediate moment of consciousness can be verified by direct experience, but that does nothing to support an assertion such as the one you make here). Jon 41454 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon (and TG) - In a message dated 1/29/05 10:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > think you explained before how the concept of "purple elephant" was > first formed by the mind from 'separate' memories of (a) purple and (b) > elephant. It's not clear to me how that concept could have any previous > existence, presence or whatever you want to call it, whether as a > 'cognitive event' or however, before the moment of its original > conception by the mind. > ====================== Jon, I'm really confused by your position. You seem to be saying that a concept exists at the moment of its mental conception, but that it has no prior existence. So what? That is precisely the case for any citta as well, is it not? All of a sudden I seem to be seeing you as taking concepts to be actual momentary phenomena. Am I misunderstanding you? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41455 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/29/05 10:14:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > We've probably been over this ground before ;-)), but what is the basis > for the assertion that objects of consciousness are created at the very > moment of consciousness, and have no 'existence' outside that moment? > (Of course, I understand the position you take as a matter of principle > that nothing outside the immediate moment of consciousness can be > verified by direct experience, but that does nothing to support an > assertion such as the one you make here). > ===================== Well, the point is that of course there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of experience, but they are, in principle, unexperienced - being outside of experience. We can hypothesize such, but if they do exist, we can never know it. I see the Bahiya Sutta and especially the Sabba Sutta as making exactly this point. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41456 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:44am Subject: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Kel - In your message # 40384 I have learned a number of useful things about indriya, concentration, sama-samadhi, object of lokuttara citta, and viriya that is associated with lobha (trying too hard). At the end of the post the 'bojjhanga' is briefly mentioned as follows. Kel : You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced. T: Since balancing the 5 indriyas to achieve the "bojjhanga quality" is very important, could you please elaborate the above comment further? I truly appreciate the clear answers you gave in #43084. Kindest regards, Tep ============== 41457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:11am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: sotapanna ---------- Van: Nina van Gorkom Datum: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:44:14 +0100 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: sotapanna Dear Yong Peng, op 28-01-2005 11:50 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: Nina, I have an additional question. What does the Tipitaka say about the realisation of a sotapanna? N: Samyutta Nikaya, Mahaavagga, Book XI , Sotaapatti Samyutta. Many suttas about this subject. For example the first one: Raajah, about four dhammas the sotaapanna is endowed with: unshakable confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and as the fourth:'He is possessed of the virtues loved by the ariyans, virtues unbroken... which lead to concentration of the mind.' The sotaapanna is described as having the dustless eye of Dhamma, or dwelling with generosity. He has no stinginess at all. Although he has not eradicated all defilements, he has eradicated wrong view, stinginess, jealousy. He has no conditions to transgress the five precepts and cannot commit kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. Thus, sense desire and aversion are not as gross as in the case of the non-ariyan. He will have at most seven more rebirths. Y.P.: How and when does a person know he has become a sotapanna? N: He must develop the right cause leading to this stage of enlightenment. This is a long learning process. He must develop all stages of insight. He should have friendship with the wise, listen to the Dhamma and consider it wisely. Then intellectual understanding of mental phenomena, naama, and material phenomena, ruupa, can grow, and this is pariyatti. Just as the Buddha explained to Raahula that he should realize the truth of the five khandhas, ruupakkhandha and the four naamakkhandhas. Intellectual understanding, pariyatti, is the foundation of patipatti, the practice, vipassanaa, which is awareness and direct understanding of naama and ruupa. Rahula had to be mindful of visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, of all objects appearing through the six doors, one at a time. Thus he could realize that they were truly impermanent and non-self. Patipatti will lead to the realization of the truth, pativedha, and this occurs at the moment of enlightenment. The sotaapanna has not eradicated desire, aversion and ignorance but he truly understands that dhammas arise because of their appropriate conditions and are non-self. When desire or anger arises he can face them with understanding, he knows that they are mere impersonal elements. No matter whether he is praised or blamed, he knows that his life is only conditioned namas and rupas. He knows that daily life is the test for one's understanding. When a person develops the right conditions to become a sotaapanna, he goes through all the stages of vipassanaa, beginning with precise understanding of the difference between the characteristic of naama and of ruupa, he penetrates more and more the true nature of conditioned dhammas, and he gradually sees the disadvantages of them. When he attains enlightenment he experiences nibbaana, the unconditioned element (asa"nkhataa dhaatu) for the first time. He has no doubt about that. At that moment there is lokuttara paññaa. However, people may delude themselves and believe that they have reached stages of insight or even attained enlightenment. Even in between the stages of insight there are the upakilesa of vipassana: one clings to the calm or assurance due to vipassana and one does not continue to develop understanding. It is most important to realize when there is clinging to the goal. If one realizes that whatever arises is due to conditions it can help one to continue with the right Path. It does not matter what arises, calm or clinging, they are only conditioned dhammas. This leads to detachment. When many akusala cittas arise in a day, there is no need to become disheartened, they are all conditioned dhammas and can be understood as such. Nina. 41458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Pilgrimage India 2 b Hello Phil, thanks for your feed back. op 29-01-2005 00:52 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >> Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black > curtain...., ... > It seems unlikely that this will change in the short run (ie a few > lifetimes.) How can it when it is so deeply accumulated? And there is > our cultural environment that only makes it more difficult. N: I think above all our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. The real cause is not the environment, although it has influence. Ph: The truth > that in the absolute sense there are no people is basic Dhamma that > can be learned from one's first brush with the Khandas, but there is > such resistance to it. We have to live in the world and deal with the > world's values (most of us) and this will be far more likely to > darken the curtain. N: Social life is a point Lodewijk stresses very much: it is the Dhamma that helps us in our social life. We have to become an understanding person, Kh Sujin says. We learn to understand also others' accumulated tendencies, how they behave they do. More tolerance, more matte and compassion if understanding is developed. Understanding nama and rupa is eventually the condition for less defilements. Also in our dealings with our fellowmen. Ph: snipped.... quotes: We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but >> when there is awareness and understanding we are on the island of > Dhamma, >> the island of satipatthåna.>> ³Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto >> yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your > island, >> the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge... > Ph: I must admit that this is one of the teachings that I never > quite "get." .... There is no > refuge except right understanding of realities, and that doesn't > happen because the Buddha tells us to do it. We can be heedful > because the Buddha tells us to do it, if the conditions are right. N:< There is no refuge except right understanding of realities>, that is right, satipatthana. Even if we are only beginners. Ph: . There is not yet anything a true refuge from the subtle > suffering caused by feeding on thoughts of past and future, even if I > say that I have taken refuge in the Buddha's teaching. N: But you learnt already, it is different from the time you had not heard about the Dhamma. Is this not a refuge? Nina. 41459 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 7:46:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Well, the point is that of course there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of experience, but they are, in principle, unexperienced - being outside of experience. We can hypothesize such, but if they do exist, we can never know it. I see the Bahiya Sutta and especially the Sabba Sutta as making exactly this point. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I understand but it seems to me you are unnecessarily putting "blinders" on. For example. Lets say you hear crash while your in a room. You go outside and see a car "wrapped" around a tree. Do you feel only able to hypothesize that the car ran into the tree. I understand that in an ultimate sense that is what is happen. But any practical sense would allow a person to "have knowledge" that the tree was hit by a moving car. Do we make ourselves unnecessarily stupid by asserting that such a conclusion is beyond our knowledge? If you feel that such an assertion is really beyond our knowledge, I want you as my lawyer if I'm ever on trial. ;-) Seriously though...isn't the knowledge of impermanence partly "hypothetical." (I would call it inferential.) Besides just "feeling" things as impermanent, don't we need to draw conclusions about the impermanence as an underlying factor of all formations. That death is imminent. Isn't the knowledge of suffering a "hypothetical formulation" to some degree, especially at times when one is experiencing pleasure? I don't think we can rule out the importance of inferential knowledge and I certainly don't think the Buddha did. The Buddha often made statements based on principles (not direct experience because sometimes he was talking about the future) and used those to teach people...to inculcate impermanence, suffering, and no-self perspectives. It seems to me from some posts I've seen that a "pure" phenomenological point of view is unnecessarily limiting useful perspectives in seeing the things we need to see in order to overcome suffering. I think its important to know what is really happening. But I think we also need to allow for the reasonable certainty of knowledge that can be well founded and varafiable by other means, as being considered knowledge and useful. How can direct experience allow you, while living, to make any reasonable conclusions about death? It can only be hypothesized. And I think that kind of hypothesis is crucial to attaining success in the Buddha's teaching. TG 41460 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/29/05 2:30:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > I understand but it seems to me you are unnecessarily putting "blinders" on. > > For example. Lets say you hear crash while your in a room. You go outside > and see a car "wrapped" around a tree. Do you feel only able to hypothesize > > that the car ran into the tree. I understand that in an ultimate sense that > is > what is happen. But any practical sense would allow a person to "have > knowledge" that the tree was hit by a moving car. Do we make ourselves > unnecessarily > stupid by asserting that such a conclusion is beyond our knowledge? ------------------------------------- Howard: Of course I would conclude the same as you that "The car ran into the tree." I don't think we mean exactly the same thing by that, but this is just too complex a mess of stuff ot get into. ------------------------------------- > If you > feel that such an assertion is really beyond our knowledge, I want you as my > > lawyer if I'm ever on trial. ;-) > -------------------------------------- Howard: It's my son who's the lawyer. I'm just a retired academic. ------------------------------------- > > Seriously though...isn't the knowledge of impermanence partly > "hypothetical." > (I would call it inferential.) > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, partly but not completely. I don't mind inference - in fact I depend on it. But when something is *in principle* unverifiable, I pragmatically dismiss it. ------------------------------------- Besides just "feeling" things as > > impermanent, don't we need to draw conclusions about the impermanence as an > underlying > factor of all formations. That death is imminent. Isn't the knowledge of > suffering a "hypothetical formulation" to some degree, especially at times > when one > is experiencing pleasure? > > I don't think we can rule out the importance of inferential knowledge and I > certainly don't think the Buddha did. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Neither do I, nor the importance of intellect. The internet is not a paramattha dhamma!! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- The Buddha often made statements based > > on principles (not direct experience because sometimes he was talking about > the > future) and used those to teach people...to inculcate impermanence, > suffering, and no-self perspectives. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: But direct knowing was the bottom line. (See the Kalama Sutta re distrust of reason.) ---------------------------------------- > > It seems to me from some posts I've seen that a "pure" phenomenological > point > of view is unnecessarily limiting useful perspectives in seeing the things > we > need to see in order to overcome suffering. I think its important to know > what is really happening. But I think we also need to allow for the > reasonable > certainty of knowledge that can be well founded and varafiable by other > means, > as being considered knowledge and useful. > > How can direct experience allow you, while living, to make any reasonable > conclusions about death? It can only be hypothesized. And I think that > kind of > hypothesis is crucial to attaining success in the Buddha's teaching. > > TG > > ========================= The bottom line is that I depend on reason just as you. For all but possibly arahants it is needed for full understanding of what is what. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41461 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Jon In a message dated 1/29/2005 7:01:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: TGrand458@a... wrote: >The mind stores memories as "potential concepts." (The concepts are >potential, but the memories are real impressions.) These "potential concepts" arise >as a cognitive event (arisen concepts) when the mind pays attention to them >(the memory impressions) and such contact is established. Just as a "potential >visual object" (that is not currently being seen) becomes an "arisen visual >object" when the mind pays attention to it and such contact is established. > >There's no difference. They are both formed and experienced as forces and >conditions. Just as a "mountain" (as an example) is altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly; so too are memories altering according to >conditions, and changing accordingly. > > I'm sure this is a reasonably tenable position to take. But since your position is I assume more in the nature of an educated guess (although of course a well-educated one ;-)) than something verified by direct experience, I'm puzzled by the strength of your conviction that the 'abhidhamma' position is wrong. I'm wondering if the answer could lie in some deeply entrenched view you hold that clashes with the abhidhamma in some respect. There are for everyone such views that are not apparent but that nevertheless pervade the conscious thinking/reasoning. Just a thought. As far as the 7 Abhidhamma texts are concerned, I don't have any problem with them that I can remember. Haven't read them all the way cover to cover other than the Vibhanga. However, the way that the abhidhamma approaches the subject matter has a liability to lead to interpreting states as being "more substantial" than I think is beneficial. But I really don't think an anti-abhidhamma bias has any bearing on what I state above. It is the way I understand and see conditional principles working that leads to the type of conclusions formed above. I am a hard core D.O. person. Everything that arises in bound to conditions. I don't believe something can arise that is non-existent. I don't even believe in conventional or absolute truths. Its true or it isn't...period. >One might think that concepts disappear and make no lasting impression. But >I still have Sarah's "purple elephant" in my head. ;-) The techologies that >are at our "beck and call" could not have arisen without concepts. That's a >lot of "lasting" impact. > > I think you explained before how the concept of "purple elephant" was first formed by the mind from 'separate' memories of (a) purple and (b) elephant. It's not clear to me how that concept could have any previous existence, presence or whatever you want to call it, whether as a 'cognitive event' or however, before the moment of its original conception by the mind. Its a condition Jon. Just as a mountain is a condition for downhill skiing. The things we have learned in the past, are memories that are "tapped into" when the appropriate conditions arise. The mountain doesn't "just appear" when someone skies on it...its a "potential ski slope" Memories are "potential concepts" when the conditions arise that activate them. As such conditions arise, the memories are slightly altered according to the new impacting conditions. Just like the mountain will be slightly altered due to the contact of the skier. For example...now when I think of "purple elephant," I'll have the condition of Sarah's comment and this post as new conditions that will modify that memory. The next time I hear purple elephant, it might make my mind associate it with thoughts of Sarah and Jon; whereas it would have never done that befiore. If I was totally unfamiliar with the word and concept of "purple," and totally unfamiliar with the word and concept "elephant," my mind would have registered a big "blank" when I read purple elephant. But because I had learned those terms in the past and they were memories, I was able to "conceptualize" what Sarah said. Otherwise, no concept would have arisen. At least none that were appropriately associated with purple elephant. Jon TG 41462 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 11:52:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: The bottom line is that I depend on reason just as you. For all but possibly arahants it is needed for full understanding of what is what. With metta, Howard I feel much better now and agree with all you said. :-) TG 41463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India 2 b Dear Azita, such things can happen, it is natural. We should not mind whatever appears, it has appeared already. Kusala, akusala, pleasant, unpleasant, happy feelings, unhappy feelings. There are conditions for all of them. If we do not mind what appears there are conditions for awareness. We do not select any object, we are not choosy. Nina. op 29-01-2005 09:15 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > A few events over the past > 2 weeks have 'brought out the worst in me' so to speak. Despite > thinking 'but I should know better, I'm a student of the Dhamma, why > am I being so mean to this person', I continued to be mean to that > person. I hated myself for it which did not help, and now the mean > feelings have gone and I'm pleasant to that person. 41464 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. and Kel - The unfinished discussion between you two is very interesting to me. The concept of 'no self' seems to be intertwined with goal/direction/time and several other things like ultimate truth (paramattha) and conventional truth (vohara sacca). Please allow me to get involved in the discussion, O.K.? ------------------------ KH: > > there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be willed to arise > > Kel: > There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be predestined. KH: Fair enough, but let's not sidestep anatta by seeing the equivalent of a self in cetana: it is just a conditioned dhamma. --------------- KH: > > but the teaching is to know the present reality. It is not to have concern for the future. > > Kel:> Because knowing the present moment leads to no attachment of a particular future. Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything? KH: Good question! Why do anything when there is no self to reap the rewards? The Dhamma is not about doing anything: it is about understanding the present moment. The present moment is all that exists, so it is all there is to understand. ----------------------- T: Right now, at this cross-section in time, there exist Ken H., Kel and other 'beings'. If Ken does not exist, why does he care to practice the Dhamma in order to understand the 'sabba dhamma' in the present moment? If Ken is not concerned with the eradication of cravings (so that he may be free from the samsara in the future: the hidden goal of his practice), then why is he trying to practice the Dhamma right now? Yes, it is a Truth that states 'sabba dhamma anatta'. And without the real penetration of this Truth, there will be no hope for release(vimutti) in the future. Therefore, Kel was not wrong in saying, "Sure we have concern about the future in a sense of a goal. Otherwise, why do anything?". I think Kel is using the 'goal' as a conventional truth. Remeber the Bodhisatta's goal to become a Buddha? Kind regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Kel, > > We agreed that conceit could not help us to practise satipatthana. > Nor can any other akusala mental activity. That's why I can't see > deliberate practices as having any effectiveness. Moreover, as Sukin > points out, belief in a deliberate practice reinforces wrong view - > it denies the laws of conditionality. > > ----------------------------- > > Kel: > No but understanding the convential truth is what leads to > higher understanding of the absolute truth. As an example, one of > my teachers keep telling us to observe the mind. He said once it's > really pure, all the associated intense vedana will fall away. I > thought my mind looks pure, and repeated observation wasn't doing > anything to vedana. > > ------------------------------ > > I don't necessarily disagree with what you say here. Sati and panna > can observe the mind, but there is no deliberate (conventionally > real) practice by which we can make it happen. Citta is too fast. > (snipped) ------------- > KH: > > You might not agree you were 'sidestepping the question [of > anatta]' but we > > > Kel: You can give a river a name and it exists. There's a > definite path it takes. But ask if it's the SAME river then the > answer is no as its always in a flux. If a snapshot can be taken in > time and space of the river and ask if it exists then it most > certainly does. > -------------- > > If, by 'snapshot of the river' you are alluding to the presently > arising five khandhas, then I concede you are not sidestepping the > question. :-) If, however, you mean a [still] image of a living > being - with arms, legs, eyes and ears - then, no, that would not be > the reality taught by the Buddha. There is no being with the power > to touch, see and hear. > > --------------------------------- > KH: > > there is no power in cetana cetasika by which kusala can be > willed to arise > > > > Kel: > There has to be some power to get a new tendency and to > change the old tendency. Otherwise everything would just be > predestined. > ------------------------------------ (snipped). > > ------------- > KH: > > Putting off will never condition > > satipatthana; it will only condition more putting off. > > > > Kel: >The point is when akusala is at full power, it's like trying > to stop a moving train. You'll just crushed instead. You need to > stop it in the beginning when the momentum is low or before it even > starts. A proper practice will prevent it from gaining full power. > Once it's there, only time will dissipate it. > > ------------- > (snipped) > Regards, > Ken H 41465 From: nowtide Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: jhanas Wet Vipassana is Vipassana that employs te use of Jhana (Bhante Gunaratana, Buddhadasa Bikkhu) Dry Vipassana is Vipassana that does not use Jhana (ie Mahasi style Vipassana, Goenka, Ajahn Tong). I am not so much concerned with reaching Jhana, and in fact have done so under the guidance of a teacher on retreat and during my own home practice- I must not have asked my question properly. Let me try again: The reason I ask if one can reach Jhana through "dry Vipassana" is because the main critique of the Mahasi method id that it does not use Jhana and therefore misses Samma Samadhi of the 8 fold path. So my question is a more theoreticla one, and I ask it in an attempt to better understand this debate between the two groups. From my own experience with Jhana and in talking with practitiones of Mahasi Vipassana I find that they experience something identical to my experience with Jhana. If those practicing Mahasi style Vipassana do in fact reach Jhana as part of the practice then that would change the debate entirely, and perhaps even resolve it. 41466 From: Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions I don't think the buddha forbids us to make hypothesis or inferences. I think he encourages us to rationalize what we see, hear, or read...or else he wouldn't have told the Kalamas in the Kalama Sutta "not to believe in everything one see, hear, or reads." It is only through experience that one can only believe if something is worthwhile, but again, one must see if it is beneficial to others and ourselves....only then can we accept. I think the Buddha allows us to make hypothesis, inferences, and associations, just as long as we're not attached to these ideas/concept that we fall into the wrong view. []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions > I don't think we can rule out the importance of inferential knowledge and I > certainly don't think the Buddha did. The Buddha often made statements based > on principles (not direct experience because sometimes he was talking about the > future) and used those to teach people...to inculcate impermanence, > suffering, and no-self perspectives. > > It seems to me from some posts I've seen that a "pure" phenomenological point > of view is unnecessarily limiting useful perspectives in seeing the things we > need to see in order to overcome suffering. I think its important to know > what is really happening. But I think we also need to allow for the reasonable > certainty of knowledge that can be well founded and varafiable by other means, > as being considered knowledge and useful. > > How can direct experience allow you, while living, to make any reasonable > conclusions about death? It can only be hypothesized. And I think that kind of > hypothesis is crucial to attaining success in the Buddha's teaching. 41467 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:06:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Dear Dhamma-friends, In his book “Concept & Realityâ€? Bhikkhu Nanananda identifies this luminous state and the above verse about no-fire, no-earth, etc. with arahatta-phala-samadhi. Destruction or cessacion of nama–rupa according to his interpretation is nothing but destruction of concepts of nama-rupa in that state of consciousness. Fire, earth etc. that find no footing means absence of the concepts of fire, earth, etc. in that state of mind. In general, he interprets the deep verses about nibbana (like Udana 80) psychologically rather than metaphysically which can solve a great deal of misunderstandings. With metta, Cosmique Hi Cosmique Nibbana with residue is a temporary cessation of nama. It is not Wholly Destroyed. Also, no need to speak of rupa being destroyed in that case because the lack of concepts, without Nama, is obvious. Another translation translates...paraphrasing... that -- "Name and form" cease without remainder. Both "wholly destroyed" and "cease without remainder" indicate parinibbana. I don't know if he is solving misunderstandings or generating them. But there seems to be two solid reasons for not agreeing with his interpretation. His interpretation requires considerable "creative license" in order to hold water. Perhaps his thinking is "too mentality oriented" or perhaps I'm dead wrong. The way I see...the Four Great Elements find no footing because there is no craving to hold them together. Name and form are wholly destroyed because they are destroyed. But as far as the word "luminous" goes in this context, I don't have a basis for understanding it. TG 41468 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (247) Dear Htoo, Thank you for this. It has become very clear for me - these dying moments. Anumodana for your sharing of your knowledge. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are continuous changing. One being dies here while another > being is born there and if these events were seen it would be very > shocking [sanvega]. There are many dying people around us. ....snip..... > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. 41469 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Tep, I'm going to paste some of Ledi sayadaw's words. I can also give some illustration from experience of how to balance them if that's what you were asking. > T: Since balancing the 5 indriyas to achieve the "bojjhanga quality" is > very important, could you please elaborate the above comment > further? This is from http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6f.htm, discussing the bala nature of the indriyas. If any one of these five bala is weak and unable to dispel the respective patipakkha dhamma,[116] work in samatha and vipassanana cannot be very successful as far as neyya individuals are concerned. ** neyya are the people who must practice to achieve enlightenment Hence, at the present day, some persons can emerge out of the realm of tanha because of their strength in saddha-bala. They are rid of the attachments to paccaya amisa and worldly dignities and honours. But since they are deficient in the other four bala, they are unable to rise above the stage of santutthi (state of being contented). Some persons can emerge out of the realm of tanha and kosajja because they are strong in saddha-bala and viriya-bala. They are constant in the observance of the santosa dhamma[117] in residence among hills and forests, and in the practice of the dhutanga (ascetic practices). But because they are weak in the other three bala, they are unable to practise kayagata-sati, or do the work of samatha and vipassana. Some persons are strong in the first three bala and thus can rise up to the work of kayagata-sati. They achieve concentration in out- breath, or in the bones of the body. But since they are deficient in the other two bala, they cannot rise up to the work of the jhana and vipassana. Some persons can rise up to the attainment of jhana samapatti because they are strong in the first four bala, but since they are weak in panna-bala, they cannot rise up to the work of vipassana. Some persons are strong in panna-bala. They are learned in the Dhamma and the Pitakas. They are wise in the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities). But because the back is broken in the four other bala, they cannot emerge from the realm of tanha, kosajja, mutthasacca and vikkhepa. They live and die within the confines of these akusala. In this way, whenever one is deficient in any one of the bala, one cannot emerge out of the realm of the respective patipakkha. Of the five bala, viriya-bala and panna-bala are also iddhipada. Hence, if these two bala are strong and co-ordinated, it does not happen that one cannot rise up to the work of vipassana because of the weakness of the other three bala. Then you can look at http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6g.htm where he talks about Bojjhangas. When these seven characteristics or sambodhi are acquired in a balanced manner, the yogavacara can rest assured that there is no deficiency in his kayagata-sati. He can rest assured that there is no deficiency in his perception of anicca or anatta, and in his mental and bodily energy. Because his mind is set at rest in regard to these three factors, he experiences joy in the knowledge that he can now perceive the light of Nibbna which has never before appeared to him in the past infinite samsara, even in his dreams. Because of that joy and ease of mind, his attention on the kammatthana objects becomes extremely calm and steady and upekkha (equanimity) which is free from the anxieties and efforts for mindfulness, perception of anicca and anatta, and the necessity to evoke energy, arises. All the above statements are made with reference to the stage at which the sambojjhanga are in unison with one another and their respective functions are specially clear. As far as ordinary sambojjhahga are concerned, from the moment kayagata-sati is set up, the dhamma such as sati are known as sambojjhanga. When the Buddha said that the seven sambojjanga must be practised, as in: Satisambojjhangam bhaveti, viveka nissitam, viraga nissitam, nirodha nissitam, vossaggaparinamim... upekkha sambojjhangam bhaveti, viveka nissitam, viraga nissitam, nirodha nissitam, vossaggaparinamim', [127] it is meant that in the ordinary course, the process of setting up kayagata-sati (such as out-breath and in- breath) amounts to the setting up of the seven bojjhanga. For the distinctive and specific setting up of the bojjhanga, see the Commentary on the Bojjhanga Vibhanga.[128] - Kelvin 41470 From: Illusion Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas I see...well I do not know if through Dry Vipassana one can reach Jhanas or not. However, one thing that I do know is that Vipassana requires samma samadhi, concentration, although at a much lesser degree than Wet vipassana. You see, sila samadhi and panna are like iron triangles, one does not work without the other. One must have perfected sila to have peace of mind to practice samadhi and one must have sufficient samma samadhi in order to attain panna (Vipassana leads to panna). Vipassana requires one to observe nama and rupa as it is, equanimously, if one does not have samma samadhi, then one can not observe nama and rupa with equanimity, in fact one may not be able to meditate at all without concentration. Panna (wisdom) makes the practice of sila (morality) much stronger. I believe the Buddha attained certain levels of jhanas (I believe the 9th jhana if i'm not mistaken), but he only needed the first jhana to practice Vipassana and became fully enlightened. Jhana makes one very peaceful, sharp, and in some cases able to perform supernatural acts, however, one does not become wise and one will never attain enlightenment...there is still ego, lobha dosa moha (hatred, greed, ignorance). I suspect that Vipassana does not enable one to attain Jhana, only samantha bhavana (meditation of concentration, like samma samadhi) will do that. But don't take my word for it, I don't know for sure. I think now the question lies in whether you would like to attain certain levels of equanimity and able to become powerful/ supernatural feats or are you more concerned with developing wisdom, and full realization to attain arahantship. Hope that info was clear and useful =) []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." ----- Original Message ----- From: "nowtide" To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 7:52 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas > > > > Wet Vipassana is Vipassana that employs te use of Jhana (Bhante > Gunaratana, Buddhadasa Bikkhu) Dry Vipassana is Vipassana that does > not use Jhana (ie Mahasi style Vipassana, Goenka, Ajahn Tong). > > I am not so much concerned with reaching Jhana, and in fact have > done so under the guidance of a teacher on retreat and during my own > home practice- I must not have asked my question properly. > <....> 41471 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:08pm Subject: Re: jhanas Hi, > From my own experience with Jhana and in talking with practitiones > of Mahasi Vipassana I find that they experience something They're very much similar experience because it's mostly due to the calmness arising from strong samadhi. Here I quote Ledi sayadaw: The samadhi-dhamma called sammadhindriya, sammadhi-bala, and samadhi- magganga, is called samadhi-sambojjhanga. Alternatively, the parikamma-samadhi, upacara-samadhi, appana-samadhi, or the eight sammapatti, associated with the work of samatha and citta-visuddhi, and sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi, appanihita-samadhi, associated with panna-visuddhi, are called samadhi-sambojjhanga. The samadhi that accompanies vipassana-nana, or magga-nana and phala- nana, are called by such names as sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi and appanihita-samadhi. > If those practicing Mahasi style Vipassana do in fact reach Jhana as > part of the practice then that would change the debate entirely, and > perhaps even resolve it. Unlikely it'll be resolved for following reasons. Most people are only proficient in one method and like to think theirs is the "correct" one. Or they have tried one method and found it didn't work for them so it must be "wrong". When they discover one that fits better with them, they automatically reject all other ones. Or color everything with their tinted glasses and present everything from that perspective insisting it has to be seen that way. Only a Buddha is a master of all methods not even chief disciples, much less ordinary arahats. We've had numerous threads stating that magga citta is not possible without at least 1st jhana quality samadhi. If you believe in Abhidhamma then there's just no arguing about it. There are different ways of getting there and different objects one can utilize. There's also different emphasis on what to cultivate, samadhi versus sati. I can give you the message numbers if you're willing to wade through the material. Bottom line is it doesn't matter, just take one method by a good teacher and apply it. If you do it properly, you'll get to Nibbana. - Kel 41472 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi, > > > From my own experience with Jhana and in talking with practitiones > > of Mahasi Vipassana I find that they experience something > They're very much similar experience because it's mostly due to > the calmness arising from strong samadhi. Here I quote Ledi sayadaw: > > The samadhi-dhamma called sammadhindriya, sammadhi-bala, and samadhi- > magganga, is called samadhi-sambojjhanga. Alternatively, the > parikamma-samadhi, upacara-samadhi, appana-samadhi, or the eight > sammapatti, associated with the work of samatha and citta-visuddhi, > and sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi, appanihita-samadhi, > associated with panna-visuddhi, are called samadhi-sambojjhanga. The > samadhi that accompanies vipassana-nana, or magga-nana and phala- > nana, are called by such names as sunnata-samadhi, animitta-samadhi > and appanihita-samadhi. > > > If those practicing Mahasi style Vipassana do in fact reach Jhana > as > > part of the practice then that would change the debate entirely, > and > > perhaps even resolve it. > Unlikely it'll be resolved for following reasons. Most people > are only proficient in one method and like to think theirs is > the "correct" one. Or they have tried one method and found it > didn't work for them so it must be "wrong". When they discover one > that fits better with them, they automatically reject all other > ones. Or color everything with their tinted glasses and present > everything from that perspective insisting it has to be seen that > way. Only a Buddha is a master of all methods not even chief > disciples, much less ordinary arahats. > We've had numerous threads stating that magga citta is not > possible without at least 1st jhana quality samadhi. If you believe > in Abhidhamma then there's just no arguing about it. There are > different ways of getting there and different objects one can > utilize. There's also different emphasis on what to cultivate, > samadhi versus sati. I can give you the message numbers if you're > willing to wade through the material. Bottom line is it doesn't > matter, just take one method by a good teacher and apply it. If you > do it properly, you'll get to Nibbana. > > - Kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Chris, and All, Thanks Kel. It is very clear answer and it is also very clever answer. Yes. The problem is that green glassess. Some hold this and some hold that and they are just arguing. If on the path there is no way that one cannot reach nibbana. That is one must reach nibbana. With respect, Htoo Naing 41473 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:28pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Tep) - ========================== The Buddha defined right concentration as the first 4 jhanas. Right concentration is one out of eight as regards the 8-fold path. It *is* a requisite condition for liberation. It cannot be dispensed with. It is not, however, a *sufficient* condition. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Are you sure? Are the last 4 jhanas also 'right concentration'? That is are the 4 arupa jhanas right concentration? With respect, Htoo Naing 41474 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Dear Tep, Kel and All, Just butting in. These 5 bala dhammas or these 5 indriya dhammas are the chief in achieving enlightenment. There are 31 realms. In terms of enlightenment leaving manussa realm, the highest realms are rupa brahma realms. There may be arahats, anagams, and sakadagams in arupa brahma bhumis. But unlike other realms, 5 pure abode or 5 suddhavasa brahma bhumis are all the realms of ariyas. All are anagams or arahats. There are 5 realms. They are 5. akanittha 4. sudassii 3. sudassaa 2. atappaa 1. avihaa The highest is akanittha 4th jhana brahma bhumi. These ariya brahma have strongest panna. Sudassii brahmas have strongest samadhi. Sudassaa brahmas have strongest viriya. Atappaa brahmas have strongest sati. Avihaa brahmas have strongest saddha. There are reborn in there because they had balanced these 5 even though they started with their strongest power. As Kel mentioned quoted from Ledi's when there are not all these to the fullest power then there are breakages. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Kel - > > In your message # 40384 I have learned a number of useful things > about indriya, concentration, sama-samadhi, object of lokuttara citta, > and viriya that is associated with lobha (trying too hard). At the end of > the post the 'bojjhanga' is briefly mentioned as follows. > > Kel : You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading > the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. > By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So > once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced. > > T: Since balancing the 5 indriyas to achieve the "bojjhanga quality" is > very important, could you please elaborate the above comment > further? > > I truly appreciate the clear answers you gave in #43084. > > > Kindest regards, > > > Tep > > ============== 41475 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:55pm Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: sotapanna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > ---------- > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:44:14 +0100 > Aan: > Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: sotapanna > > Dear Yong Peng, > op 28-01-2005 11:50 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: > > Nina, I have an additional question. What does the Tipitaka say about the > realisation of a sotapanna? > > N: Samyutta Nikaya, Mahaavagga, Book XI , Sotaapatti Samyutta. Many suttas > about this subject. For example the first one: Raajah, about ..snip.. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much for forwarding this message. It is very helpful. With respect, Htoo Naing 41476 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (248) Dear Dhamma Friends, Niraya bhumis have been discussed to some extent. Akusala marana- asanna-javanas and arising of duggati patisandhi has been related in the previous post. Tiracchanna or animals are another apaya bhumi or another woeful plane of existence. Some may already know that there are some fortunate animals and they are gaining profits as actors in films and movies, circus, armies etc. But they do have limitation and they are beings of woeful plane. Tiracchanna derives from 'Ti' and 'Channa' or 'Chandha'. They generally have three chandha or 3 wishes. They are animal instincts. Sleeping, eating, having sex are three wishes of animals. Animals are reborn with 'ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta' and this is the same citta that serves as patisandhi citta of hell beings. There are enormous amount of animals and they are countless and uncountable. Even though there are some exceptions, animals are generally dealing with akusala daily. So it is shocking to be reborn as an animal. Why? Because once one is reborn in animal realms then he or she is hardly escape from those realms. Because again they are doing akusala all the time even though some few animals may have some chances to do kusala dhamma. They have constant worry of being attacked by other animals and men. They have constant worry of not having enough food. They have to fight the same animals of the same sex for their sex life as there is no rules in animal realms. As they do have enough panna their dying is always with suffering like domanassa. If they are being killed by other animals like a deer killed by a tiger they have to die with pain and anger and this akusala again leads to another rebirth at woeful planes. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41477 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi all, I have a couple of thoughts to add to this thread. Concepts are either words or signs. Since words are forms of signs we can say concepts are signs. They act as identifiers. All identities are signs or are signaled by signs. In one important way signs make an error in identifying the conditioned as unconditioned (there are other identity errors as well). Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently unconditioned is conditioned. I wouldn't say signs are nonexistent, but rather the error that signs signal is nonexistent. The question is, how do signs signal that the conditioned is unconditioned, i.e., permanent? Why is this problem pervasive? How can we counteract it? Larry 41478 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (249) Dear Dhamma Friends, Hell beings do not have a defined lifespan. So they may live just a minute to many many kappas. Animals also do not have a stable lifespan. Peta or petta or hungry ghosts also do not have a defined lifespan. They may live just for a day to kappas long. So do asurakaaya or demons. Human beings also do not have a stable lifespan. There are many kinds of peta even though it is counted as one realm of 4 woeful planes of existence. Peta should not be confused with low power devas who are beings of kama sugati bhumi. Examples are rukkha- jiva or tree-dwelling devas, bhumma-jiva or ground-dwelling devas and many other wandering low power devas. These devas are beings of sugati bhumi. Petas are always hungry. There are different kinds of peta. Some have very hugh body but have very small mouth. So they cannot eat enough to fulfil their hugh body. Some peta do not have skin and they have been suffering from intense weathering like cold and heat. Some petas have open stomach or open abdomen according to their akusala. So their internal organs and viscera are exposed and crows are pricking and shearing their organs. Some petas have only bones and they do not have to eat anything and they have been suffering since they have been born there as skeleton- ghosts or petas. Some petas have rotating razors on their heads which is constantly cutting their scalp and causing constant bleeding without every being weak but continue to suffer as long as their kamma dictate them to stay there in that peta realm. Like hell beings most petas are reborn with oppapaatika patisandhi or rebirth with full-blown body. The margin between the previous life cuti and current life patisandhi is so thin that some do not recognise that they have died in the previous life and they are no more in the previous realm. In the new realm [peta] here, some look at other beings [petas] and feel that such and such beings are beautiful [in their eye] because they are wearing beautiful on their heads. As this thought pushes them they approach those petas with rotating razors on their heads and ask for to give them that beautiful flower. When the old kamma is used up the turn is finished and that particular peta gives the razors-rollers to others who asked for. But they have to go to another areas for further suffering as long as they still have akusala kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41479 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:18pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi James > > Please look at a sutta in MN known as the noble search where Buddha > learnt the jhanas from the two masters. > > One must go through the material jhanas before entering the > immaterial jhanas. I have not seen a sutta quote where one can > directly go to the immaterial jhanas without going through the > material jhanas. If you come across one, please let me know, because > it will good to know such things do happen. > > Jhanas is right concentration if and only if the first seven are > right, which means there must be right understanding first. One > cannot enter a jhana (a buddhist jhana) without at least the aloof of > sensual pleasure which means there must be right understanding, right > sila etc. Jhana without right understanding as a percusor, is the > same as the jhanas experience by the brahims at Buddha times. > > > Ken O > p.s. please look at other definition of samadhi :-) > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html Well, you still have not responded to the sutta quote I already gave you about the only time, prior to enlightenment, the Buddha had achieved the first jhana when he was a child. How many times do I need to ask you? You ask me for sutta quotes about various and sundry items but I am not going to provide them until you answer my first question. Remember, you don't call the shots here. This is supposed to be an equal exchange. Thanks for the links to other suttas about samadhi but I had read them previously. What would you like to say about them? I have one thing to say about them: In AN IV. 41 "Samadhi Sutta" the Buddha states, ""Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?..." He then goes on to explain the four possible developments of concentration. You will notice that he list the four jhanas but he doesn't list the four immaterial attainments. Why? Do you think he just forgot them? No, he didn't list them because they are not attained through concentration and they are not necessarily linked to the jhanas. Again, what the Buddha had learned from his former teachers was not in any way associated with the jhanas. Metta, James 41480 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi Jon, Regarding where a cup of tea comes from, you wrote: J: "Regarding your example of the cup of tea, we need to keep in mind that it is *experiencing through the sense-doors* that is the result of the former intention, for example, the seeing of visible object, tasting of taste, experiencing of heat, softness, etc. through the body-sense. So the cup of tea itself can never be the *result* of previous intention." L: Maybe we could say the cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa in that it is a group of rupas arranged by present intention. However, in some mysterious way this cup of tea fulfills kamma initiated by previous intention and there will possibly be a subsequent fulfillment of the kamma involved in the intentional production of the cup of tea. See CMA p.172: "Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of consciousness (vipaakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face." If we don't say a cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa then is there no intention responsible for producing it? I have a feeling I am missing some abhidhamma regarding the mechanics of intentional action. Do you know anything about this? Larry 41481 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:32pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (250) Dear Dhamma Friends, There is a fourth woeful plane called asurakaaya bhumi or demon realm. They are very much like human beings and they have same characteristics like human beings. They are reborn with a patisandhi citta of 'ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta' which is the same as those of hell beings, animals, and petas. Again these asurakaayas are also reborn with full-blown matured size beings and they are said to be oppapaatika patisandhi that is they are reborn with full-blown body. But they always have some defect and they have been suffering almost always all the time. Some asurakaayas do not have any water to drink and they are always thirsty all the time. This is because of their akusala kamma which were done in their past lives. Some asurakaaya do not have eyes and some do not have ears. Some do not have legs or feet. Some are happily live in the day time and they have to undergo bad suffering at night time as their kamma dictate. They have to do so as long as there are kamma that dictate such happening and such events. Some asurakaayas are being eaten by hugh dogs without even dying but constantly suffering from being eaten away. Some asurakaayas are taking, scratching, nibbing their own flesh and eat for themselves and this is as dictated by their old kamma. Some asurakaayas are doing jobs in the day time and at night they flock together and then they go for a place where there is a great fire created by themselves and then they each step into that great fire at each night. This is as their old kamma dictate and they will be in that state as long as their kamma are still there. They are mostly away from kusala dhamma and they are almost always in the state of great suffering. This suffering again adds further akusala and once in that realm it is hard to escape from that realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41482 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon (and Howard), To jump in here: Jon: It's interesting how, when one looks closely and carefully at what is said in the suttas, what we take at first sight to be an instruction to do conventional actions turns out to be neither an instruction nor a reference to conventional actions. This just bears out what we know already, that we are inclined to read suttas as supporting our own particular viewpoint. I think I've been very fortunate in having much of my own misreadings brought to my attentoin over the years. James: Jon, you are being very general so I will respond in a very general way. I don't believe that you are fortunate at all to have your mind twisted away from the true meaning of the suttas. The Abhidhamma is simply a description for reality; it doesn't advocate or describe a practice. The suttas, however, do advocate and describe various practices for liberation. When one tries to warp the meaning of the suttas to fit the approach of the Abhidhamma, the result is that the dhamma is lost. The Buddha said that he only taught suffering and the way to end suffering- from your approach one would conclude that he only taught suffering. Metta, James 41483 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi Howard --------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is analogous to saying that consciousness is neutral - > that its being eye consciousness or ear consciousness etc depends on the conditioning sense door, with the implication that all consciousness is just consciousness. > Not all consciousness is the same. Likewise not all kamma is the same. Ignorance conditions cetana (kamma), and the manner in which it is conditioned effects the nature of that cetana, and that in turn effects its consequences. If two dhammas are differently conditioned, it is not the case that the dhammas are the same but their conditioning "roots" different - the dhammas are then different as well. k: Yes citta is neutral. Citta is different depend largely on our reaction to the object. Likewise, dhammas are only different as what you say due to the roots, this is the same for kamma, it is only different due to the roots. It is the root that will condition the direction of the mind and not kamma. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ignorance conditions kamma, and through that, all else. But > recall that D.O. is a cyclic, not linear. The conditioninbg is manifold and complex. > What is false view is that ones past kamma *determines* > current and future kamma. But it certainly conditions it. The point is that there are other factors at work as well, else that is past-action determinism in effect. Our being born as humans involves a host of conditions that affect our current volitions. That human birth was kamma vipaka. Thus, the prior kamma that led to this human birth was a distant condition affecting our current kamma. It is false that our current intentions, volitions, and actions are dependent of prior intentions, volitions, and actions. There > clearly is a dependency. What there is *not* is a deterministic, sole dependency. Conditionality is complex and multifaceted. k: Kamma is twofold in the D.O. First as what we known as vipaka kamma that is where we are born human etc. The other is what we known as cetana. Being born as human is due to vipaka kamma. The prior kamma that leads to the birth as vipaka kamma is cetana what we have done. However it is not kamma that says this is a kusala or akusala. Cetana will act kusala or akusala only because of the roots. If cetana is the cause of kusala and akusala, then cetana will determine our future actions. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's like saying that it is not Saddam Hussein who > tortured people, but his parents who gave birth to him. If marble A hits marble B, knocking it into marble C, it does not become false that marble B hot marble C.(Imagine if there is a line of colliding marbles with no beginning! Then your argument would conclude that there are no collisions at all.) > ------------------------------------------------ k: Nope. Saddam Hussein cetana in this way because of its roots. Your this example actually illustrate that if cetana is the cause of kusala and akusala, than Saddam Husseein can blame his parents and his past births. Ken O 41484 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James > Well, you still have not responded to the sutta quote I already > gave you about the only time, prior to enlightenment, the Buddha had achieved the first jhana when he was a child. How many times do I need to ask you? k: Oops sorry James. Nope, Buddha did practise jhanas as I said in MN titled "the Noble Search" from the brahim masters. If the first jhana he attained during childhood is with wisdom, then he will be at least a stream entrant at that time. The jhanas he remember is the same he has been practising for countless lives, mundane jhanas - of no use - only lead to kusala birth. j: Remember, you don't call the shots here. This is supposed to be an equal exchange. k: I believe in equality ;-). > > Thanks for the links to other suttas about samadhi but I had read > them previously. What would you like to say about them? I have > one thing to say about them: In AN IV. 41 "Samadhi Sutta" the Buddha states, ""Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four?..." He then goes on to explain the four possible developments of concentration. You will notice that he list the four jhanas but he doesn't list the four immaterial attainments. Why? Do you think he just forgot them? No, he didn't list them because they are not attained through concentration and they are not necessarily linked to the jhanas. k: The four jhanas are listed while the immaterial jhanas are not listed because any being during enlightment will experience the material jhanas (If my memory does not fail me). Whether one experience immaterial jhanas or not that will depend on the person accumulations ;-). Again, what the Buddha had learned from his former teachers was not in any way associated with the jhanas. k: hmmmm, maybe you like to quote the text to prove that I am getting old and my memory is getting bad (ahhh impermance). Ken O 41485 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:54pm Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 1/29/05 7:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Are you sure? > > Are the last 4 jhanas also 'right concentration'? That is are the 4 > arupa jhanas right concentration? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ========================= I'm sure of almost nothing. I'm just reporting what I read the Buddha as saying. I have also heard that the 4 higher jhanas are actually refinements of the 4th jhana. If I'm not mistaken, the Buddha attained Arahanthood from the base of the 4th jhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41486 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma - Ken O. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/29/05 10:24:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > It is > false that our current intentions, volitions, and actions are > dependent of prior intentions, volitions, and actions. ========================= Somehow something got lost in your quoting me here, Ken. What I wrote was "independent", not "dependent". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41487 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 5:40:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. Hi Larry If errors happen, how can they be non-existent? Why are they by definition non-existent? If I see a mirage that looks like water...that's an error in interpretation or misperception, but the conditions for the mirage are still there. And the misperception really did arise... based on conditions. Curious to what you mean. TG 41488 From: Ken O Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry L: Concepts are either words or signs. Since words are forms of signs we can say concepts are signs. They act as identifiers. All identities are signs or are signaled by signs. In one important way signs make an error in identifying the conditioned as unconditioned (there are other identity errors as well). Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently unconditioned is conditioned. I wouldn't say signs are nonexistent, but rather the error that signs signal is nonexistent. The question is, how do signs signal that the conditioned is unconditioned, i.e., permanent? Why is this problem pervasive? How can we counteract it? k: Identities are not signal by sign, they are marked by sanna. Signs dont make error, they are just objects. It is our latency roots that make the error, identifying them as pleasurable, or not or neutral or identifying them as permanent or belongs to onself. The problem is pervavise because this habit has been with us for countless lives. The only way to counteract is development of wisdom, knowing them as anicca, anatta and dukkha. k: When Buddha says that the origination of dukkha is craving, it is very clear that it is craving that cause the pervavise problem of us clinging to object. Objects is not the cause, it is our reactions to the object is the cause. Similarly, when Buddha is still alive, he still hear, see etc like ordinary person. But his roots are uprooted, there is no more craving to be found, hence no more wood to add to the fire of rebirth. If signs are the cause of our rebirth, then no one can be liberated. It is the reactions of the sign that matters and not the sign itself. The development of the path is about developing panna so as to see the signs as they really are. Ken O 41489 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, TG: "If errors happen, how can they be non-existent? Why are they by definition non-existent? If I see a mirage that looks like water...that's an error in interpretation or misperception, but the conditions for the mirage are still there. And the misperception really did arise... based on conditions. L: If you see a mirage that you identify as water the nonexistent error is the nonexistent water but the error (misidentification) really did arise. Similarly if a thought is identified as self the error is self identity. There is no self but the error conditions dukkha. If an error were nonexistent there wouldn't be an error. If an error were existent there wouldn't be an error. Error is both existent and nonexistent (being careful about the word 'existent'). There must be some philosophical lingo for this logic. Larry 41490 From: Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Ken O, K: "Identities are not signal by sign, they are marked by sanna." L: See the analysis of sanna below. Vism.XIV,130. "But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant (Ud. 68-69). Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men." Larry 41491 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! Hi Maya, --- Waters Illusion wrote: > > Greetings all Dhamma Friends, > > My name is Maya. I was born in Indonesia, but is currently living > however I now reside in the US. I have been practicing vipassana > for 4 years. Now, I am interested in learning more satipatthana, > the Vipassana technique taught by Mahasi, and also the abhidhamma. :) ... S:Thanks for introducing yourself here. Very glad to hear that you're so interested in satipatthana and abhidhamma :). There are a few other Indonesians here - mostly in lurk mode, I think. > > []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} > > "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that > is subject to change and unsatisfaction." ... S: Only now do I see that you have signed off with your name and a great signature tag. I also thought you made a good comment when you said: "I also think that you should not dwell so much in the fact whether you have attained a certain jhana for that might lead to craving and attachment :)." I look forward to more of your contributions. Metta, Sarah. ======= 41492 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry > > Vism.XIV,130. "But though classed in the same way as consciousness, > nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the > characteristic of perceiving. Its function is to make a sign as a > condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as > carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant (Ud. 68-69). Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men." k: does that contradict what I have said. If there is, please point out. I dont see any difference because no object can be identitfied without sanna. Ken O 41493 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert Well, I think this question is one of the most difficult and the disputes over it will go on as long as Buddhism exists. As far as I understand, Nanananda’s approach is not very orthodox. Nevertheless, it is also an attempt to shed some light on the deep doctirnes in the Canon. As for parinibbana, he describes it as complete cessation of being, annihilation, or bhavanirodha. Here are some of his remarks on the lustrous mind: When consciousness is not arrested by any object at the point of focus, it penetrates through the net of nama-rupa out into infinitude and “viewpoints” give place to an all-encompassing vision. In this respect it is described as “lustrous-all-round” and the lustre is wisdom itself. The illumination brings about a fading away of all objects, which earlier appeared to be “significant” due to the bewitching gleam of consciousness. Consequently, this experience is sometimes referred to as “the cessation of the six sense-spheres” (salayatana-nirodha). Elsewhere he writes “hence they (concepts) pale away and shrunk into insignificance, as do twilight stars on the advent of the moon, or the moon at sunrise. Yet, in its lustre, wisdom supersedes seven the sun, for the suttas tell us that even the latter pales before it. Then he quotes Udana 9: There, where earth, water, and wind no footing find….. In his opinion this state is anna–phala-samadhi, or anidassana-vinnana (the non-manifistative consciousness). “It is a gaze that is neither conscious nor non-conscious, … a gaze that knows no horizon”. After the arahant dies this state ceases in parinibbana. With metta, Cosmique TGrand458@a... wrote: In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:06:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Dear Dhamma-friends, In his book “Concept & Realityâ€? Bhikkhu Nanananda identifies this luminous state and the above verse about no-fire, no-earth, etc. with arahatta-phala-samadhi. Destruction or cessacion of nama–rupa according to his interpretation is nothing but destruction of concepts of nama-rupa in that state of consciousness. Fire, earth etc. that find no footing means absence of the concepts of fire, earth, etc. in that state of mind. In general, he interprets the deep verses about nibbana (like Udana 80) psychologically rather than metaphysically which can solve a great deal of misunderstandings. With metta, Cosmique Hi Cosmique Nibbana with residue is a temporary cessation of nama. It is not Wholly Destroyed. Also, no need to speak of rupa being destroyed in that case because the lack of concepts, without Nama, is obvious. Another translation translates...paraphrasing... that -- "Name and form" cease without remainder. Both "wholly destroyed" and "cease without remainder" indicate parinibbana. I don't know if he is solving misunderstandings or generating them. But there seems to be two solid reasons for not agreeing with his interpretation. His interpretation requires considerable "creative license" in order to hold water. Perhaps his thinking is "too mentality oriented" or perhaps I'm dead wrong. The way I see...the Four Great Elements find no footing because there is no craving to hold them together. Name and form are wholly destroyed because they are destroyed. But as far as the word "luminous" goes in this context, I don't have a basis for understanding it. TG The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41494 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry Objects can conditioned lobha but they are not lobha. It is lobha tha matters and not the object be it concepts or rupa. Rupa and concepts are neutral, they are not akusala by nature, they only become akusala when citta reacted the object with akuasala roots conditioned by latency (less the vipaka cittas that arise with rupa). Buddha like us has sanna, also perceives concepts like us, also identify concepts like us. So it is not the identification that matters, it is the kusala and akusala paramatthas that arise with the identification that matters. Just like a bar of pure gold can conditioned lobha to arise, but lobha is not the pure gold, neither does the sign of gold is lobha. It is lobha that matters not pure gold. Ken O 41495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Larry, op 29-01-2005 01:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "1: The experience which is feeling: if it is bodily feeling it > accompanies body-consciousness and arises in the body-door process." > > This is exactly what I am talking about. Feeling IS experience. N: Yes, it is experience, it is different from dead matter that does not experience anything. It is naama, not ruupa. It is one of the naama-kkhandhas. L: It is > misleading to say feeling experiences some other dhamma. N: Since it is naama it must experience an object. Feeling may be kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaaka. In the case of bodily feeling it is vipaaka, result of kamma. When it is akusala it experiences in an unwholesome way. =========================== Review of feeling khandha: =========== L: An object of > consciousness is a condition for the arising of that consciousness (or > cetasika), but, as object, the object is not an experience. N: An object may be: citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana or concept. Remember the six classes of objects. Citta can experience another citta that has just fallen away, or a cetasika such as feeling. L:An unpleasant bodily feeling arises as experience and conditions the > arising of aversion. N: Right. L:When aversion arises there is no experience of unpleasant bodily feeling. N: Citta rooted in aversion can experience as object the bodily pain that has just fallen away, why not? Don't we experience pain with aversion? It is natural. =========== A review of feeling khandha: ============= L:Similarly, the experience which is bodily feeling is not the experience that is body consciousness and the > experience that is body consciousness is not rupa, and rupa is not an > experience. N: Right. bodily feeling and body consciousness are different types of nama. The first is cetasika and the second is citta. The cetasika accompanies the citta. L: If we take this view it seems to me there are multiple simultaneous > experiences that are cetasikas arising in any given moment. N: No problem. L: I think the reason it seems like we experience only one thing at a time is because > of deluded perception. N: Citta can experience only one object at a time, not two objects. This is the truth. L: Perception will take one dhamma of many that > arise to act as symbol or sign to represent the 'whole' group. Often > this one sign then becomes a condition for the arising of another group > of experiences (cetasikas). > There may be problems with the role of perception here. Maybe there is a > better way to explain it. N: I do not follow you here. Also saññaa has to accompany citta, thus, it experiences one object at a time, it marks and remembers one object at a time. This object may be a concept of a whole of impressions. L: In the specific case of 'taking an object of consciousness', as in > jhana, perhaps we could say a repeated clear sign is the condition for > the jhana factors to arise (simultaneously) rather than saying the jhana > factors experience the sign. N: When these cetasikas are developed as jhanafactors they can arise with jhanacitta that experiences the meditation subject. Then citta and cetasikas are not kaamavaccara, but rupaavacara. Another plane of citta. They are not involved with sense impressions. L: The sign is an experience and the jhana > factors are experiences N: The sign, say, a kasina, is not an experience. It is not naama. But it can be experienced with absorption by the jhanacitta and accompanying cetasikas. L: but it doesn't make sense to me to say one > experience experiences another experience. N: I do not see any problem here. =========== Review of feeling khandha: When we read in the Satipatthaana Sutta the words: we should remember the real meaning of these words as explained above. They point to the truth of anatta.> =============== When we think, I have as experience feeling, feeling is an experience I have, then, before we know it, there may be a notion of self, of: I am sitting here, and I note feeling. We are so used to this idea. It can be corrected by remembering the basics of Abhidhamma and above all by satipatthana. Nina. 41496 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26am Subject: Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Intro. The Visuddhimagga now proceeds explaining all the cetasikas that are included in sa.nkhaarakkhandha, to begin with phassa, contact. The Expositor p. 143 explains that contact is mentioned first in the order of teaching. One could also say: there is feeling and contact, etc. There is no sequence in them, they arise together. While they arise together they condition one another. Text Vis. 134. Herein, (i) it touches (phusati), thus it is 'contact' (phassa). This has the characteristic of touching. Its function is the act of impingement. It is manifested as concurrence. Its proximate cause is an objective field that has come into focus. [As to its characteristic], although this is an immaterial state, yet it occurs with respect to an object as the act of touching too [60]. And [as to its function], although it is not adherent on any one side [61] as eye-cum-visible-object and ear-cum-sound are, yet it is what makes consciousness and the object impinge. ---------------------- Note 60 taken from the Tiika: ' "As the act of touching too": by this he shows that this is its individual essence even though it is immaterial. And the characteristic of touching is obvious in its occurrence in such instances as, say, the watering of the mouth in one who sees another tasting vinegar or a ripe mango, the bodily shuddering in a sympathetic person who sees another being hurt, the trembling of the knees in a timid man standing on the ground when he sees a man precariously balanced on a high tree branch, the loss of power of the legs in one who sees something terrifying such as pisaaca (goblin)' (Pm. 484-85). N: With these similes the Tiika illustrates that there is phassa without adherence, without there being the physical contact between two things. It is mental contact, aruupa-dhamma as the Tiika emphasizes. We read in the Expositor (p. 143): < There is no impinging on one side of the object [as in physical contact], nevertheless contact causes consciousness and object to be in collision....> The cetasika contact does not impinge on a sense organ, it merely accompanies citta while it as it were Œtouches¹ the object so that citta can experience it. The naama-dhamma phassa touches in a way different from a rupa that impinges on a sense organ. Note 61 from the Tiika.(For 'non-adherent' see par. 46.) ' "On any one side" means not sticking (asa'msilissamaana). It is only the impact without adherence that contact shares with visible data and sound, not the objective field. Just as, though eye and ear are non-adherent respectively to visible data and sounds still they have the word "touched" used of them, so too it can be said of contact's touching and impinging on the object. Contact's impingement is the actual concurrence (meeting) of consciousness and object' (Pm. 485). N: This clarifies the difference between impact of, for example, visible object on eyesense and the impact of contact, which is the concurrence of citta and visible object. Text Vis.: It is said to be manifested as concurrence because it has been described as its own action, namely, the concurrence of the three [(cf. M.i,111), that is, eye, visible object, and eye-consciousness]. N: This is the activity of contact: to be the condition for the coming together of eye, visible object, and seeing, etc. The Tiika refers to a simile taken from the ŒQuestions of Milinda¹ (I, 60) about two hands that are clapping against each other, comparing their collision with contact. The Expositor (p. 144) elaborates on this, stating that one hand represents the eye, the other hand visible object and their collision contact. It also mentions the simile of two rams that fight and two cymbals that are struck. These similes illustrate that contact has the characterisits of touch and the function of impact when it arises in a sense-door process. The Expositor explains that contact arising in a mind-door process only has the characteristic of touch, not the function of impact. In the mind-door process there is not the impact of ruupa on another ruupa, the sense-base. We have to remember that phassa is mental, no matter whether it arises in a sense-door process or a mind-door process. The Tiika adds that contact of the citta with the object should be seen as only cetasika dhamma. Thus, phassa is cetasika, it is mental. Text Vis.: And it is said to have as its proximate cause an objective field that has come into focus because it arises automatically through the appropriate [conscious] reaction and with a faculty when the objective field is presented. N: The Expositor (p. 145) explains in a way similar to the Tiika: Text Vis.:But it should be regarded as like a hideless cow (S.ii,99) because it is the habitat [62] of feeling. Note 62. Adhi.t.thaana--'habitat' (or site or location or foundation). N: The Vis. and also the Tiika refer to the text in the Kindred Sayings II, 99 (Child¹s Flesh) where contact is explained as nutriment-condition. A cow with a sore hide would be bitten by creatures, no matter in what place she would be. This illustrates that contact conditions feeling. *** Remark: contact conditions feeling that arises at the same time and they experience, each in their own way, the same object as the citta they accompany. The Dhammasangani mentions the first type of mahaa-kusala citta of the sense-sphere with its accompanying cetasikas. They arise together and have as object: visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object, object of thought (dhammaarama.na) or whatever object there is. It states: Pleasant and unpleasant objects are experienced one at a time, as they present themselves through the six doors. Whatever object appears, phassa contacts it so that citta can experience it. We find it very important to experience pleasant objects and we cling to pleasant feeling. However, nobody can arrange what object presents itself at a given moment. When one hears disagreeable words, the sound is only an object impinging on the earsense and phassa contacts it so that it can be heard. When understanding arises and it realizes sound as only a kind of ruupa, phassa contacts the object in a wholesome way, and also the accompanying feeling and the other accompanying dhammas are kusala. When there is aversion towards the sound, phassa contacts the object in an unwholesome way, and also the accompanying feeling and the other accompanying dhammas are akusala. Learning about phassa that contacts objects one at a time as they present themselves through the six doors, reminds us of the truths of impermanence and anattaa. ***** Nina. 41497 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Dear Nina, I need squillions of reminders just like this, and even then - not enuff. Its never enuff until arahat - I guess. BTW, I like Lodewijk's comments, via you, that I read on some of your posts. His comments sound very wise. Thank you again, Nina, for all your help. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > such things can happen, it is natural. We should not mind whatever appears, > it has appeared already. Kusala, akusala, pleasant, unpleasant, happy > feelings, unhappy feelings. There are conditions for all of them. If we do > not mind what appears there are conditions for awareness. We do not select > any object, we are not choosy. > Nina. 41498 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 2 b Hi Azita > Azita: the 'they consume me all day' hit a chord in me, and rather > than being discouraged, I was confused. A few events over the past > 2 weeks have 'brought out the worst in me' so to speak. Despite > thinking 'but I should know better, I'm a student of the Dhamma, why > am I being so mean to this person', I continued to be mean to that > person. I hated myself for it which did not help, and now the mean > feelings have gone and I'm pleasant to that person. It's fascinating, isn't it, to have the uncontrollability driven home? In the past we would feel lousy about it, or fret, or regret, but now we know that this is just a confirmation of the Buddha's teaching and it can be an opportunity for gratitude for His teaching. Of course, there are moments of feeling lousy as well. > I recall thinking during that time, that this is what > uncontrollability is all about. Also, I remembered Acharn Sujin > saying 'take all names away' and for me that meant that what was left > was these unpleasant feelings, dosa, stinginess [oh, and occasionally > I was nice to others :-) ], which produced pleasant feelings, kusala > or akusala - who knows - only wisdom. And of course, there was lots > of seeing, hearing etc in between. We can be surprised by detachment, by distance from telling the stories and personalizing things. For example, when I was walking home in a cold rain the other day, without an umbrella, I found myself thinking "there is coldness" instead of "I am cold" - and I found myself relaxed and not struggling against the elements. The key is that it happened without my intending it to. If on the next cold rainy day I look out the window and say "I think I'll try that 'there is coldness' thing again", the result will be quite different. It will be all about self trying to control things, in vain. "I recall thinking during that time, that this is what uncontrollability is all about." I can relate to that for sure. Aware of it. And the awareness arises, it's not something we try to have. And then there are days - like today -during which there is hardly any awareness at all. I visited the area where we'll be moving and was lost the whole time in anticipations of how good it will be. And then went to work, without any awareness as the day flew by. But there was patience with students, friendliness, now that I think of it, a lot of it. Hope it was a good movie. I saw all three "Lord of the Rings" over three days for the first time a few weeks back. Very stirring. Metta, Phil 41499 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: >Hi all, > >I have a couple of thoughts to add to this thread. Concepts are either >words or signs. Since words are forms of signs we can say concepts are >signs. They act as identifiers. All identities are signs or are signaled >by signs. In one important way signs make an error in identifying the >conditioned as unconditioned (there are other identity errors as well). > > Does a sign make errors, or is it the mind that makes the sign that makes the error? If the latter, then the problem you describe below does not arise. Jon >Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of >errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly >know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see >how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently >unconditioned is conditioned. > >I wouldn't say signs are nonexistent, but rather the error that signs >signal is nonexistent. The question is, how do signs signal that the >conditioned is unconditioned, i.e., permanent? Why is this problem >pervasive? How can we counteract it? > >Larry > > 41500 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Dear Htoo (and all) In the end of your message you say: "When the old kamma is used up …" That reminds me on a question I've a longer time. So out of the context of your Dhamma Thread 249 I will ask it: All phenomena are conditioned, except Nibbana, the arise and fall away after some time that is different for different kinds of phenomena. But, is my question, how about kamma? I have read somewhere that the question "where is kamma made of, is it a nama or a rupa or an energy etc ?" should not be asked (acinteyya: the four unthinkables). But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after tens or hundreds or billions of years ? I think it does, otherwise animals, living totally akusala, can never be reborn in higher sentient beings. And when kamma falls away, it does just because it's the time for it, automatically like a rupa falls away after a millisecond (or shorter); or is kamma conditioned and does it only falls away when conditions for that falling away occur ? Or means 'used up": only when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results of it? If you answer: please not to much Pali and not a to broad context. Metta Joop 41501 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Dear Azita (& Nina), --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > Dear Nina, > > I need squillions of reminders just like this, and even then - > not enuff. .... ...and remember all those discussions in India (like in the Gangtok hotel garden) where we were reminded that it's useless to think about whether the cittas that have gone already are kusala or akusala or to try and be aware of them when they arise, because it's all just going to be about *self* once more - clinging again to a 'purer me'. Far more important is the development of understanding of present dhammas as not-self with detachment from whatever is conditioned. Namas have to be known as namas and rupas as rupas over and over again. Yes, when we're 'fussy' about what arises, it shows the attachment to self again. Hope you're recovered from your surgery, Azita. Appreciating all the good reminders from our discussions in your series, Nina, with the sutta quotes too. Metta, Sarah ======= 41502 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:13am Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil Hi Rob Thanks for the feedback. > So its useful to know what wrong concentration is: > In the Dhammasangani under Akusala dhammas > 386- What is the power of concentration? > That which is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, > unshakeableness, non-distraction, imperturabilty, tranqulity of > mind, the faculty of concentration, power of concentration, WRONG > concentration- this is at that time the power of concentration. > Not quite clear about what this is saying. Surely not that stability of mind etc always involve wrong power of concentration? It is saying that stability of mind etc that result from concentration is akusala if it's WRONG concentration? But the passage above doesn't make it clear to me what wrong concentration is. I'm very sleepy, I must admit. Thanks for any further classification. > This type of wrong concentration is tranquil and powerful - but it > arises with lobha (attachment). It can be very nice and peaceful. I guess many meditators in the West (especially) mistake this nice and peaceful feeling for a kind of liberating wisdom. Defilements have been supressed, so there is a sense of having cut through the cloud of ignorance, but that's not the case. When the concentration is removed, the defilements will spring back up with the same force they had before (when conditions are there) and perhaps even fortified because there is added ignorance. These days I am not fretting whatsoever about not meditating because I can see what would be behind meditation for me at this point - temporary peace of mind. But I expect I will attend vipassana classes at that Tokyo temple Sarah was kind enough to link me to. Thanks in advance for any further clarification of the Dhammasangani passage, when you have time. I don't know if I've made my question clear. Metta, Phil 41503 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, James buddhatrue wrote: >James: Jon, you are being very general so I will respond in a very >general way. I don't believe that you are fortunate at all to have >your mind twisted away from the true meaning of the suttas. The >Abhidhamma is simply a description for reality; it doesn't advocate >or describe a practice. The suttas, however, do advocate and >describe various practices for liberation. > I don't see the kind of dichotomy you do. The realities described by the Abhidhamma include those involved in the path to liberation as described in the suttas, while the path to liberation described in the suttas is in essence the understanding of the realities that are described in the Abhidhamma. As I see it, each reflects the contents of the other, but as described from a different perspective. > When one tries to warp >the meaning of the suttas to fit the approach of the Abhidhamma, the >result is that the dhamma is lost. > I'm afraid I have no idea which of the suttas topics I've been involved in lately you have in mind here, but if you'd care to give an example or two, I'd be happy to respond (defend myself ;-)). > The Buddha said that he only >taught suffering and the way to end suffering- from your approach >one would conclude that he only taught suffering. > > Well, this observation about 'my' approach is the perception of those who read the suttas as calling for the undertaking of conventional practices being the only proper development of the path. This is why it is necessary to keep discussing particular suttas and other texts. There is much more to them than at first sight appears. Time to stop being general and get specific? Jon 41504 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:33am Subject: Further India and Thailand discussions with A.Sujin Dear Friends, 1. India There will be another Pilgrimage to India with A.Sujin along similar lines to the last one, but ending in Kashmir from 8th-23rd Oct this year. Nina definitely intends to go and we are also planning to. I think Christine is also hoping to. I know there is already a waiting list, but if anyone has any interest at all to join, pls let me know *off-list* for any details. If you wish to be put on the waiting-list let Betty, Sukin or I know asap. 2. Thailand I've just spoken with A.Sujin and she is very kindly arranging time for dhamma discussions with us in Bangkok (or possibly out of Bkk) on March 29th, 30th and tentatively 31st (just after Easter weekend). If anyone else is able to join, pls let me know off-list too. Highly recommended for anyone here! Metta, Sarah ======== 41505 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil Hi Phil & All, --- Philip wrote: > > Thanks in advance for any further clarification of the > Dhammasangani passage, when you have time. I don't know if I've made > my question clear. ... I'll look forward to any further discussion you have with Rob too. When I recently quoted from Dan's old message which included the passages on right and wrong effort and so on, I mentioned it to him off-list. Anyway, he sent this short further comment which he said I was welcome to share. I think it's neat: Dan: "Effort, view, concentration, action, etc. are all distinct, but understanding the distinction between 'samma' and 'miccha' is the same, whether the samma/miccha applies to effort, view, etc.--is there an underlying commitment to a "Self"? And that question cannot be answered by looking at "externals" such as "...exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor..." or facility with conceptual formulations (i.e., words and models of reality)." Metta, Sarah ===== 41506 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard Here is your original post with references, and my response giving the relevant content of 3 of the 4 suttas. The fundamental issue here is whether, according to the teachings, the carrying out of conventional practices is necessary for the development of insight and the attainment of enlightenment. Jon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [Howard:] With regard to conventional actions and practices, and with regard to prescribed (and not just described) behavior, in a casual perusal of selections from the Anguttara Nikaya I came across the following suttas that I think are relevant and that I put forward for your consideration: (II, i, 5) (II, ii, 9) (III, 32) (III, 45) (IV, 12) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41036 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [Jon:] Thanks for bringing up some specific suttas for discussion. Here is the relevant part of each of suttas No 2, 3 and 4 from your list and my comments on them (these are not exact quotes from the translation but are based closely on it): **************************************** No. 2 "Abandon evil! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness. Cultivate good! One can do so, and it brings well-being and happiness." I see the message here as being, that the abandoning of akusala and the cultivation of kusala is indeed possible and is the way to happiness. However, I do not see this sutta as saying anything about the means whereby evil is abandoned and good cultivated. **************************************** No. 3 "Thus should one train oneself: 'We shall not entertain any I-making [wrong view], mine-making [craving] or underlying tendency to conceit [conceit]; and we shall enter and dwell in the liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, so that we are no longer subject to I-making, mine-making and the underlying tendency to conceit.' 'When a monk [achieves this] he is called a monk who has cut off craving and removed the fetters, one who, by fully breaking through conceit, has made an end to suffering." I would see this sutta as identifying wrong view, craving and conceit as bonds that tie us to continued existence, and as identifying the factor of wisdom as the way to break those bonds. I would not read it as advocating any particular conventional action or behaviour, for instance resolving/repeating 'I shall not entertain any I-making'; I believe that would be an overly-literal reading of the sutta. **************************************** No. 4 "Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one's parents." I would see this sutta as emphasising the value of these 3 particular forms of kusala, but would not see it as an exhortation to do anything in particular. **************************************** Howard, no doubt we have different views on these suttas ;-)) If you see them as prescribing conventional actions, practices or behaviour as part of the development of insight, I'd be interested to know what that would be in each case. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41187 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > Please forgive me. At this point it's been quite a while since this >thread was initiated. I'm not certain which of the suttas you are asking about. >I think you are pointing to #4? In any case, I no longer have the reference. >Would you please provide the sutta to me. I'll look it it over to decide >whether I think it - that particular sutta, taken as it is, without reading anything >extrinsic into it - recommends conventional actions to be taken, and I'll >report back to you. > >With metta, >Howard > > 41507 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 1/30/05 5:28:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > L: It is > >misleading to say feeling experiences some other dhamma. > N: Since it is naama it must experience an object. ======================= So, in that case, what object does nibbana experience? :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41508 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Abhidhamma/Robert Hello TG As far as I understand, Nanananda’s approach is not very orthodox. Nevertheless, it is also an attempt to shed some light on the deep doctirnes in the Canon. As for parinibbana, he describes it as complete cessation of being, annihilation, or bhavanirodha. Here are some of his remarks on the lustrous mind: When consciousness is not arrested by any object at the point of focus, it penetrates through the net of nama-rupa out into infinitude and “viewpoints” give place to an all-encompassing vision. In this respect it is described as “lustrous-all-round” and the lustre is wisdom itself. The illumination brings about a fading away of all objects, which earlier appeared to be “significant” due to the bewitching gleam of consciousness. Consequently, this experience is sometimes referred to as “the cessation of the six sense-spheres” (salayatana-nirodha). Elsewhere he writes “hence they (concepts) pale away and shrunk into insignificance, as do twilight stars on the advent of the moon, or the moon at sunrise. Yet, in its lustre, wisdom supersedes seven the sun, for the suttas tell us that even the latter pales before it. Then he quotes Udana 9: There, where earth, water, and wind no footing find….. In his opinion this state is anna–phala-samadhi, or anidassana-vinnana (the non-manifistative consciousness). “It is a gaze that is neither conscious nor non-conscious, … a gaze that knows no horizon”. After the arahant dies this state ceases in parinibbana. With metta, Cosmique (Andre) The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41509 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Ken, Sanna makes an error that only panna can correct. This error has to do with the nature of sign itself. Sanna without panna is ignorance. This is the basic, primordial ignorance of the first link of dependent arising, the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, more pervasive than moha. Sanna, unlike moha arises with every consciousness. See the definition of vipallasa from the "Buddhist Dictionary", below: "vipallása: 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either of perception (saññá-vipallása), of consciousness (citta v.) or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); what is without a self (anattá) as a self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' (A. IV, 49). - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path- knowledge (sotápatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anágámitá) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, 68)." Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Larry > > Objects can conditioned lobha but they are not lobha. It is lobha > tha matters and not the object be it concepts or rupa. Rupa and > concepts are neutral, they are not akusala by nature, they only > become akusala when citta reacted the object with akuasala roots > conditioned by latency (less the vipaka cittas that arise with rupa). 41510 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - Thanks for sending this on to me, Jon. In a message dated 1/30/05 8:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Hi, Howard > > Here is your original post with references, and my response giving the > relevant content of 3 of the 4 suttas. > > The fundamental issue here is whether, according to the teachings, the > carrying out of conventional practices is necessary for the development > of insight and the attainment of enlightenment. > > Jon > ======================== Jon, as goes my general opinion (which I think you know by now), I believe the Buddha taught conventional actions to be taken, and that doing these constitutes Buddhist practice, and that they are the only way to enlightenment. As regards these specific suttas, I definitely see them as recommending conventional action. To me it is crystal clear. And I know that to you the opposite is crstal clear. So it is. ;-) The 4th sutta was the main one you were questioning me about, I believe. I had posted that one mainly because it speaks of "prescribing", and not just "describing". But as regards conventional actions, look at the quote "Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one's parents." These are three conventional actions, and obviously so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41511 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Kelvin (also Htoo, Nina and Sarah) - Many thanks for the excerpt from the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's article and for its Web link. As usual, I have a few questions for you to ponder over and please answer whenever it is convenient to you (I know that you have urgent 'school works' to do). Thank you very much. I) I assume that the "respective patipakkha dhammas" are those things opposing to the five balas. For example, is tanha a patipakkha dhamma to saddha bala and, if it is so, why? II) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says that people who have saddha bala, viriya bala, and sati bala can achieve samadhi in kaya-gatasati (e.g. anapanasati). And because such people are weak in samadhi bala and panna bala, he says they won't be successful in jhana and vipassana-nana. That makes sense. But he does not mention if sati bala is important for the success in jhana or vipassana-nana. In Sayadaw's view is sati bala the same as satipatthana? [Please read Nina's "far-reaching" definition of satipatthana from one of her recent mails to me: Nina: Good you ask. Satipatthana can mean: 1: the objects of sati sampajanna, nama and rupa, classified as the four satipatthanas 2: sati of the level of satipatthana which is mindful of those objects. Then it is actually sati sampajañña, because sati without understanding is not very meaningful. 3. The Path the Buddha and his great disciples walked. This is explained in the Sutta as not being delighted when people listen nor being downcast when they do not listen.] III) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says, "Some persons are strong in panna-bala. They are learned in the Dhamma and the Pitakas. They are wise in the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities). But because the back is broken in the four other bala, they cannot emerge from the realm of tanha, kosajja, mutthasacca and vikkhepa. They live and die within the confines of these akusala. In this way, whenever one is deficient in any one of the bala, one cannot emerge out of the realm of the respective patipakkha. ... Of the five bala, viriya-bala and panna-bala are also iddhipada. Hence, if these two bala are strong and co-ordinated, it does not happen that one cannot rise up to the work of vipassana because of the weakness of the other three bala". Does the venerable mean that Abhidhamma and Pitaka scholars must have both viriya bala and panna bala, if they want to "rise up to the work of vipassana"? But, again, why is sati bala not included? (IV) "As far as ordinary sambojjhahga are concerned, from the moment kayagata-sati is set up, the dhamma such as sati are known as sambojjhanga". Is sati-sambojjhanga at the higher level (closer to Arahat-magga) than satipatthana? Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I'm going to paste some of Ledi sayadaw's words. I can also give > some illustration from experience of how to balance them if that's > what you were asking. > 41512 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/29/2005 9:18:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: L: If you see a mirage that you identify as water the nonexistent error is the nonexistent water but the error (misidentification) really did arise. Similarly if a thought is identified as self the error is self identity. There is no self but the error conditions dukkha. Hi Larry The way I see it, the water never occurred and is a non-facter as far as existing or non-existing. But the delusion did occur and is a factor that alters mental states and physical ones if one "drags oneself" to the water only to be disappointed. I completely agree with your last two sentences. TG 41513 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana In a message dated 1/30/2005 9:07:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Hello TG As far as I understand, Nanananda’s approach is not very orthodox. Nevertheless, it is also an attempt to shed some light on the deep doctirnes in the Canon. As for parinibbana, he describes it as complete cessation of being, annihilation, or bhavanirodha. Here are some of his remarks on the lustrous mind: When consciousness is not arrested by any object at the point of focus, it penetrates through the net of nama-rupa out into infinitude and “viewpointsâ€? give place to an all-encompassing vision. In this respect it is described as “lustrous-all-roundâ€? and the lustre is wisdom itself. The illumination brings about a fading away of all objects, which earlier appeared to be “significantâ€? due to the bewitching gleam of consciousness. Consequently, this experience is sometimes referred to as “ the cessation of the six sense-spheresâ€? (salayatana-nirodha). Elsewhere he writes “hence they (concepts) pale away and shrunk into insignificance, as do twilight stars on the advent of the moon, or the moon at sunrise. Yet, in its lustre, wisdom supersedes seven the sun, for the suttas tell us that even the latter pales before it. Then he quotes Udana 9: There, where earth, water, and wind no footing find….. In his opinion this state is anna–phala-samadhi, or anidassana-vinnana (the non-manifistative consciousness). “It is a gaze that is neither conscious nor non-conscious, … a gaze that knows no horizonâ€?. After the arahant dies this state ceases in parinibbana. With metta, Cosmique (Andre) Hi Cosmique This is fascinating. Thanks for posting it. If I understand it, this incompassing luminous vision is the "experience" of Nibbana when an arahat is experiencing it while alive? And all experiences come to cease at the time of death? TG 41514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India Dear Azita, thanks for your kind words, I tell Lodewijk. Not only you, everyone needs squillions of reminders. You can also help with these when you share now and then what you heard on the sound tracks Jon posted. Useful for everybody, including me, Nina. op 30-01-2005 11:31 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I need squillions of reminders just like this, and even then - > not enuff. > Its never enuff until arahat - I guess. 41515 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:07am Subject: Pilgrimage India 4 a Pilgrimage India 4 a Chapter 4. The Brahma Vihåras. Lodewijk read during our long bus trips the sutta of the ³Divine Messengers² (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, Ch IV, § 35, translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158, B.P.S. Kandy). The Buddha spoke to the monks about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. A person who has immoral conduct in deeds, words and thoughts is reborn in hell. The warders take him and bring him before Yama the Lord (of Death). We read that they said: ³This man, O majesty, had no respect for father and mother, nor for recluses and priests, nor did he honour the elders of the family. May your majesty inflict due punishment on him.² Then, monks, King Yama questions that man, examines and addresses him concerning the first divine messemger: ³Did you not see, my good man, the first messenger appearing among men?² And he replies:²No, Lord, I did not see him.² Then King Yama says to him: ²But, my good man, did you not see among people a woman or a man, aged eighty, ninety or a hundred years, frail, bent like a roof gable, crooked, leaning on a stick, shakily going along, ailing, his youth and vigour gone, with broken teeth, with grey and scanty hair or none, wrinkled, with blotched limbs?² And the man replies, ³I have seen it, Lord.² Then King Yama says to him: ³My good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to old age and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind¹?² ³No Lord. I could not do it, I was negligent.² *** Nina 41516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Howard, well, you know. This was in the context of conditioned dhammas. Nina. op 30-01-2005 17:59 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > So, in that case, what object does nibbana experience? :-) 41517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Tep, Do you have Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka? If you look under bala it gives many good explanations. I have a book with articles of Ven. Ledi Sayadaw and he is clear about rupas, conditions etc. But here the explanation as given below is somewhat complicated for me. Nina. op 30-01-2005 19:17 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Many thanks for the excerpt from the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's article 41518 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:24am Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Howard and Htoo - Howard wrote: > If I'm not mistaken, the Buddha attained Arahanthood from the base of > the 4th jhana. > Tep: The Buddha's Awakening process is described in MN 19 [Dvedhavitakka Sutta ] and may be summarized in the following 'arrow diagram': Abandoning thinking imbued with sensuality, ill will and harmfulness (akusala vitakka) and pursuing only the opposite ones ---> Steadying his mind within (settled, unified and concentrated) ---> Persistence aroused and mindfulness established ---> Withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful mental qualities(akusala dhammas) ---> Entered and remained in the first jhana --->... 2nd, 3rd.... --->Entered and remained in the fourth jhana ---> Directed concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished mind toward the knowledge of recollecting past lives ---> ...the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings ---> ...the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. "I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " [MN 19] So, Howard's memory was very good. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 1/29/05 7:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > Are you sure? > > > > Are the last 4 jhanas also 'right concentration'? That is are the 4 > > arupa jhanas right concentration? > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > ========================= > I'm sure of almost nothing. I'm just reporting what I read the Buddha > as saying. I have also heard that the 4 higher jhanas are actually refinements > of the 4th jhana. > If I'm not mistaken, the Buddha attained Arahanthood from the base of > the 4th jhana. > > With metta, > Howard > 41519 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Dear Nina - Thank you for your suggestion. The Nyanatiloka's definition of the five balas is that they are 'powers' of the 5 spirtual faculties (Indriya) by the fact "that they are unshakable by their opposites" and they represent "the aspect of firmness in the spiritual faculties". I am not sure what unskable and firmness mean in the practical sense. Nyanatiloka added, "According to A.V.15, the power becomes manifest in the 4 qualities of the Stream-winner, in the 4 right efforts, in the 4 foundations of mindfulness, in the 4 absorptions, (and) in the (full comprehension of the) 4 Noble Truths". So, Nina, how does the power become manifest in the four foundations of mindfulness, and especially in the "satipatthana", according to the three meanings you have explained to me earlier? Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > Do you have Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka? If you look under bala it > gives many good explanations. > I have a book with articles of Ven. Ledi Sayadaw and he is clear about > rupas, conditions etc. But here the explanation as given below is somewhat > complicated for me. > Nina. > op 30-01-2005 19:17 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Many thanks for the excerpt from the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's article 41520 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:03pm Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon and Howard, > believe the Buddha taught conventional actions to be taken, and that doing these > constitutes Buddhist practice, and that they are the only way to > enlightenment. From following this thread I got general questions. Why can't both ways work? If one is able to see paramattha dhammas directly then they would work with that. If not they can work with pannatti and work toward paramattha. Also if someone is able to be completely within present moment during everyday activities then do that. If other people need quiet and dedicated sessions of meditation to get to that level then let them do that. Or mix and match the two as required. Why does it all have to be one way or another? - Kel 41521 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep/ Useful Information -Adhisila, etc. Hi Sarah (and Nina) - Thank you for your helpful effort to direct me to the message # 20248 (to Lars) and other Nina's booklets. I truly appreciate all this. Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Nina - > > > > I am glad to read your message # 41165 which is a detailed > > explanation of things that were unclear to me in the past. The passage > > from one of your publications is a great piece of work -- it gives me > > another perspective on samadhi and training in higher sila, etc.. What > > is the title of this publication? > ... > S:I think this is the message of Nina's below in full which you were > asking where the extract was from. You may also like to review some of the > earlier discussion in the thread with Lars which started at about > #20248.Please raise any points, comments or questions about anything you > find of special interest. You can find the booklet Nina refers to below > on: > http://www.vipassana.info/ > http://www.abhidhamma.org/, > or > http://www.zolag.co.uk/, > > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s if you put `lars' or `adhi' in the first search engine here, it will > take you to the 20,000s and then to the relevant posts too. > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > ============================ > > 20398 > > From: nina van gorkom > Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:04am > Subject: sila, samadhi, panna, no 2. > > > Dear Lars, > Now follows more from my "In Asoka's Footsteps". Note also what I wrote > about citta, concentration and higher concentration, adhicitta. You will (snipped) 41522 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:43pm Subject: Right Understanding, Right View, and Full Understanding Dear Nina - I have a few confusions about certain terms that I hope you might help me clear them out. N: Sammaa-nnaa.na is not used for "right understanding", but samma- ditthi is. Panna is of different levels and in different contexts specific terms are used. Vijjaa, amoha and naa.na are other words for pannaa, but all of them are amoha cetasika. T: But, Nina, the term "right understanding" in Anattalakkhana Sutta is different. Just review the following: "So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.' ..." I think the Pali for right understanding in the above passage is samma- panna with regard to yathabhuta-nana dassana, not samma-ditthi as you have said. The term right understanding in the samma-panna sense seems to be similar to the term "full understanding" (parinna). < Without (i) fully known, without comprehending the all, monks, without (ii)detaching himself from, without (iii) abandoning the all, a man is incapable of extinguishing dukkha...> ( from message # 40267) N (message #40375) : "Each element (except nibbana, which is the uncondiitoned element) can only arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but we may not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati sampajanna. Direct understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows". T: If right understanding (instead of right view) is the right translation for samma-ditthi, then I am not sure what the "firm understanding" and "direct understanding" above are supposed to mean. Are they related to "full understanding" (parinna), or not at all? Kindest regards, Tep ============ 41523 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana TGrand458@a... wrote: Hi Cosmique This is fascinating. Thanks for posting it. If I understand it, this incompassing luminous vision is the "experience" of Nibbana when an arahat is experiencing it while alive? And all experiences come to cease at the time of death? TG Dear TG, Unfortunately, you are exactly right. After the arahant’s death his/her luminous mind ceases. Therefore, parinibbana according to Nanananda is complete disappearance and nothingness. He does not make any reservations concerning parinibbana as some transcendental state. It is cessation of any being. With metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41524 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:05pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Tep, > I) I assume that the "respective patipakkha dhammas" are those things > opposing to the five balas. For example, is tanha a patipakkha > dhamma to saddha bala and, if it is so, why? Yes, 5 opposites. Even kusala actions like dana are motivated by tanha in desiring to be born to higher realms. Full strength saddha is one that can overcome craving for any kind of existence. The beginning of that article goes into some details about it. Forgive me as I paste more stuff: It is bhavana-saddha, which has its genesis in the successful practice of kayagata-sati, such as out-breath and in-breath until the disappearance of the dissettlement and distraction of the mind, that can dispel tanha which takes pleasure and enjoyment in the three kinds of amisa. In the matter of the bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma, it is this saddha that should be acquired. It is only bhavana-viriya, such as being satisfied with the minimum of sleep, being always alert and active, being fearless, being bold and firm in living alone, being steadfast in mental advertence, that can dispel kosajja. In the matter of the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma, it is this bhavana-viriya that should be acquired. The antithesis of sati is the akusala kamma called mutthasacca. Mutthasacca means inability to become absorbed in the work of samatha- bhavana--such as in kayagata-sati--or in the work of vipassana-bhavana inability to concentrate, inability to control one's mind, and the wandering of thoughts to objects other than the object concentrated on. The pakati-sati that one possesses in its natal state from birth cannot dispel mutthasacca. It is only bhavana- sati that can dispel it. The antithesis of samadhi is the akusala kamma of vikkhepa[114] (restlessness of mind). It consists of the inability to concentrate, and of unquietness and restlessness of mind in the work of bhavana manasikara. It is the arising of thoughts on objects other than the object of concentration. It is the inability to control the mind and keep its attention fixed on one object. Pakati-samadhi cannot dispel that akusala kamma of vikkhepa. Only bhavana-samadhi can dispel it. The antithesis of panna is the akusala kamma of sammoha.[115] It consists of ignorance, lack of clarity, mistiness, and absence of light of the mind. It is the darkness that surrounds the mind. This sammoha cannot be dispelled by pakati-panna, nor by pariyatti-panna which may comprise a knowledge of the whole of the Ti-Pitaka. It is only bhavana- panna that has set up kayagata-sati which can gradually dispel sammoha. > II) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says that people who have saddha bala, viriya > bala, and sati bala can achieve samadhi in kaya-gatasati (e.g. > anapanasati). And because such people are weak in samadhi bala > and panna bala, he says they won't be successful in jhana and > vipassana-nana. That makes sense. But he does not mention if sati > bala is important for the success in jhana or vipassana-nana. > In Sayadaw's view is sati bala the same as satipatthana? They're all important right, need all 5. The scenario he's describing here is what if only 3 are strong and 2 remains weak. So sati is already there as a necessary condition, he's saying it's not sufficient. One also needs ability to STAY on object of meditation and SEE it with FULL clarity. In general he likes to use kayagatasati as a basic step of establishing satipatthana. He says after this step, you go to citta vissudhi, purification of the mind or samatha. He doesn't really use satipatthana beyond this step. > III) Ven. Ledi Sayadaw says, "Some persons are strong in panna- bala. > They are learned in the Dhamma and the Pitakas. They are wise in > ... Of the five bala, viriya-bala and panna-bala are also > iddhipada. Hence, if these two bala are strong and co-ordinated, it > does not happen that one cannot rise up to the work of vipassana > because of the weakness of the other three bala". > > Does the venerable mean that Abhidhamma and Pitaka scholars must > have both viriya bala and panna bala, if they want to "rise up to the > work of vipassana"? But, again, why is sati bala not included? Here's definition on what iddhipadas are http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6d.htm So only viriya and panna are in iddhipada and indriya/bala. His main point is when these two are strong, others have to come along due to the strength of primary two. Essentially if you ever tried to practice 18-24 hrs a day for a few days, you'll see how viriya really just establishes sati. It becomes so automatic and natural, there's no longer a need to 'do', it just is aware. Once sati is continuous like that, samadhi just comes along because it gets momentum from that continuity. During a retreat, one is putting full effort while mundane activities like eating or showering. To some extend, walking sessions too by doing it without stoping for one hour straight. Then when you go to sitting sessions, there's a big difference. The mind tendency is now to stay on the object and remain aware continuously leading to strong samadhi. > (IV) "As far as ordinary sambojjhahga are concerned, from the moment > kayagata-sati is set up, the dhamma such as sati are known as > sambojjhanga". > > Is sati-sambojjhanga at the higher level (closer to Arahat-magga) than > satipatthana? No, i wouldn't say that. Sambojjhangas are pretty close to all the corresponding magga and phala cittas. It is still ordinary for someone still working toward any magga. I guess you can call these factors in magga citta itself as supramundane. - Kel 41525 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:58:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Dear TG, Unfortunately, you are exactly right. After the arahant’s death his/her luminous mind ceases. Therefore, parinibbana according to Nanananda is complete disappearance and nothingness. He does not make any reservations concerning parinibbana as some transcendental state. It is cessation of any being. With metta, Cosmique Hi Cosmique My understanding is that it is only considered unfortunate from our "clinging to self and craving for continuance" point of view. When it is fully understood that conditioned states are mere suffering, then I don't think 'unfortunate' will apply. If experience is no longer seen as pleasant, but is only seen as painful; then the end of experience would probably look pretty good. Unfortunately (a new unfortunately), it probably does not take on that viewpoint with much strength until we are very very close to being fully enlightened. Which makes letting go such a hard thing to do. And why the power of impermanence and no-self insight and reflecting on foulness and suffering are so important. TG 41526 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Hi Joop, I'll attempt to give a simple model that I have for workings of kamma. Htoo will give his own I'm sure. > But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after tens > or hundreds or billions of years ? > I think it does, otherwise animals, living totally akusala, can never > be reborn in higher sentient beings. No, unfortunately not. Every being carries that kamma baggage until it has a chance to give results. This baggage is made out of middle 5 out of 7 javana cittas from every kusala/akusala vithis. This is of course until one becomes an ariya then the rebirth quality kamma into lower realms are eliminated but note lesser intensity kammas remain. Now I'll go into a bit of detail so bear with me. Let's say someone committed patricide or some heinous crime in a previous life (not current). We know there's millions or billions of akusala vithi for such act. Exactly one vithi (5 cittas together) is used for rebirth-linking for that person to be born into hell then it's given result so it's gone. The power of that vithi will determine what realm of hell and how long the life expectancy is etc. Now the remaining million will act as "support" kamma. They'll keep that person there in that realm, keep on suffering and getting used up in the process (possibly lower intensity vithis). They also might cause that person to repeatedly reborn into that realm, using up even more vithis/kamma. Now let's also say that person built stupas for some Buddha in yet another previous life. They have another million of kusala kammas. Those kusala kammas might give result to lessen the suffering in hell existence. One example is being a pet in America. Some of them have truly luxurious lives but alas they are still in animal world without a chance to get dhamma. So the kusala vithis can act as "interferring" kamma to lessen the blow of akusala kamma. They can also act as "destructive" kamma to put an end to the existence given by akusala kamma too. Regardless of what mode they give result in, they are used up. Htoo mentioned in his dhamma threads of different kammas competiting for a chance to give resultant. When they don't win, they'll go back to latent stages. The winner is used up as I said. > And when kamma falls away, it does just because it's the time for it, > automatically like a rupa falls away after a millisecond (or > shorter); or is kamma conditioned and does it only falls away when > conditions for that falling away occur ? Or means 'used up": only > when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results of > it? Kamma as soon as it's given the result, falls away The effect of the result remains, ie this body/existence. The remaining kammas will either prolong or shorten that effect. - Kel 41527 From: cosmique Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana Hi TG, i agree. i am just joking about "unfortunately". with metta, cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 41528 From: Illusion Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) - Definition of Pali Words For those of you,including myself :), who do not understand the meaning of these pali words posted by Htoo Naing in the Dhamma Thread, here are the definitions that I looked up in the Buddhist Dictionary. Hopefully it is beneficial. MARANASANNA-JAVANA: marana meaning "death" means the disappearance of the vital faculty confined to a single life-time. But strictly speaking, death is continuously occuring through repeated dissolution and vanishing of each momentar physical-mental combination, so it takes place every moment. (more info on momentary existence, see Visuddhi Magga VIII) In the absolute sense, beings have only a very short moment to live, life lasting as long as a single moment of consciousness lasts. Just as a cart-wheel, whether rolling or whether at a standstill, at all times only rests on a single point of its periphery, even so the life of a living being lasts only for the duration of a single moment of consciousness. As soon as that moment ceases, the being also ceases. For it is said: 'The being of the past moment of consciousness has lived, but does not live now, nor will it live in future. The being of the future moment has not yet lived, nor does it live now, but it will live in the future. The being of the present moment has not lived, it does live just now, but it will not live in the future.' VIPAKA: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action. (Note: kamma meaning action, so the action we perform now does not depend on the past kamma) CUTI-CITTA: 'death-consciousness', lit. 'departing consciousness', is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána-kicca q.v.). NIMITTA: mark, sign; image; target, object; cause, condition. Sign of (previous) kamma' (kamma-nimitta) and 'sign of (the future) destiny' (gati-nimitta); these arise as mental objects of the last karmic consciousness before death (maranásanna-kamma; s. karma, III,3). PATISANDHI: lit. 'reunion, relinking', i.e. rebirth, is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána-kicca, q.v.). It is a karma-resultant type of consciousness and arises at the moment of conception i.e. with the forming of new life in the mother's womb. Immediately afterwards it sinks into the subconscious stream of existence (bhavangasota, q.v.), and conditioned thereby ever and ever again corresponding states of subconsciousness arise. Thus it is really rebirth-consciousness that determines the latent character of a person. This consciousness has not come from the previous existence to this present existence, yet that it has come into existence by means of conditions included in the previous existence. This fact may be illustrated by various things, such as the echo, the light of a lamp, the impression of a seal, or the image produced by a mirror. For just as the resounding of the echo is conditioned by a sound, etc., and nowhere a transmigration of sound has taken place, just so it is with this consciousness. []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} (Maya Putra) "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." 41529 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > Jon, I'm really confused by your position. You seem to be saying that >a concept exists at the moment of its mental conception, but that it has no >prior existence. > Yes, I can see how my post could be read that way, but in fact I was using the term 'exist' without agreeing that that was the case, since the focus of the post was TG's reference to prior/previous 'existence' of concepts before the moment of their becoming object of mind-consciousness. > So what? That is precisely the case for any citta as well, is >it not? All of a sudden I seem to be seeing you as taking concepts to be actual >momentary phenomena. Am I misunderstanding you? > > Sorry for the confusion. No, if something was an actual momentary phenomena then it would not fall within the meaning of the term 'concept'. Jon 41530 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > Well, the point is that of course there may well be phenomena/events > >arising outside of experience, but they are, in principle, unexperienced - >being outside of experience. We can hypothesize such, but if they do exist, we can >never know it. I see the Bahiya Sutta and especially the Sabba Sutta as >making exactly this point. > > You say here that 'there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of experience' which are unexperienced. However, I was asking about a statement you made in relation to presently experienced phenomena, to the effect that these phenomena 'are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object'. I was wondering what was the basis for that statement, (and it's implication that those phenomena are created by the consciousness, if that is also implied). Jon 41531 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana In a message dated 1/30/2005 1:55:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, cosmique1000@y... writes: Hi TG, i agree. i am just joking about "unfortunately". with metta, cosmique Got it :-). 41532 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hi Sarah, and all For some reason, Sarah, the following stuck me as a little too discouraging of ways of making progress. > ...and remember all those discussions in India (like in the Gangtok hotel > garden) where we were reminded that it's useless to think about whether > the cittas that have gone already are kusala or akusala OK, I can see this. Useless to dwell on them, or regret them. But I think there can be a kind of mental noting. It happened. There was akusala. Now it's gone. I think we can take note in this way at times, as long as we don't become too intentional about. If the noting happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Also, we know how important it is to know the jati of a citta. If we don't look at what has happened, briefly, how do we develop our understanding of whether something is/was kamma or vipaka? >or to try and be > aware of them when they arise, How about stressing the importance of not trying to be aware of them *before* they arise. I mean, not going out into the world with the intention "I'm going to be aware of my akusala cittas today" which would be about self seeking control. But if an awareness of them arises, we should try to be aware, in that moment. If not, what is the Buddha's all-important "heedfulness" (I forget the Pali) refer to? What does being heedful mean if it is not trying to be aware. Yes, we will be aware if there are conditions for it, and only if there are conditions for it, but that doesn't mean awareness is a completely passive process, as we know. I know there is great danger in being too intentional about things, but the above just strikes me as discouraging. I know if I talked with Kh Sujin it is what she would tell me, though. >because it's all just going to be about > *self* once more - clinging again to a 'purer me'. But we do want to purify the flow of cittas, ever so gradually, don't we. That's not necessarily about "me." But being aware of akusala cittas when and immediately after (well, with my degree of insight it can only be immediately after, at the soonest) conditions a weakening of the akusala roots, ever so slightly, which purifies the citta flow ever so slightly, doesn't it? >Far more important is > the development of understanding of present dhammas as not-self with > detachment from whatever is conditioned. Yes. And if the awareness rises due to conditions in our daily life, there needn't be self involved - even if we take note of it (the awareness) or so it seems to me. >Namas have to be known as namas > and rupas as rupas over and over again. Not as easy as some would believe. > > Yes, when we're 'fussy' about what arises, it shows the attachment to self > again. Fussy suggest being obsessive, but if we're concerned in a moderate way it shows devotion to the Buddha's teaching (he taught us to be concenred) and not necessarily attachment to self. I just felt a bit discouraged by the above. Yes, there is great, subtle danger in thinking we can take control of cittas, and in predicting awareness by doing certain kinds of practices or having certain kinds of intentions, but there *is* awareness that arises, and even after the fact I think it can help us. I mean, don't you ever reflect back on incidents and see things more clearly thanks to this reflection? > Hope you're recovered from your surgery, Azita. Me too, Azita. Metta, Phil 41533 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Jon: "Does a sign make errors, or is it the mind that makes the sign that makes the error? If the latter, then the problem you describe below does not arise. Jon L: "Errors, by definition, are nonexistent, but of course the commission of errors happens all the time. As it is now, even though we supposedly know better, everything seems to be unconditioned. Our task is to see how we misinterpret signs, or, alternately, see how the apparently unconditioned is conditioned." Hi Jon, I'm not following you; can you elaborate? It might be better to say a sign _is_ an error and it arises according to conditions. I probably should have said 'interpretation of signs' is just a sequence of signs that arises according to conditions. There is no interpreter. Larry 41534 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:38pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep (and Kel), ------------------ T: > The unfinished discussion between you two is very interesting to me. ------------------ Thank you, it is very interesting to me too. Kel thinks we should agree to disagree, but I don't agree with that at all. :-) ----------------------- T: > The concept of 'no self' seems to be intertwined with goal/direction/time and several other things like ultimate truth (paramattha) and conventional truth (vohara sacca). Please allow me to get involved in the discussion, O.K.? ------------------------ Please do. Anatta is certainly intertwined with those topics - as it is with every other topic of Dhamma study. ----------------------- T: Right now, at this cross-section in time, there exist Ken H., Kel and other 'beings'. ----------------------- I wouldn't say that, but I would agree that 'non-existence of beings' only makes sense when we know about paramattha dhammas. It is the dhammas - not the beings - that possess the characteristic, anatta. --------------------------------------- T: > If Ken does not exist, why does he care to practice the Dhamma in order to understand the 'sabba dhamma' in the present moment? -------------------------------------- That point can be made without relying on the existence of living beings. They and their 'caring to practise Dhamma' can all be described in terms of nama and rupa. ------------------- T: > If Ken is not concerned with the eradication of cravings (so that he may be free from the samsara in the future: the hidden goal of his practice), then why is he trying to practice the Dhamma right now? -------------------- Not only is it unnecessary to see reality in this conventional way, it can also be misleading. Like you, I must have accumulated some tendencies for Dhamma study, but is it accurate to say I am "concerned with the eradication of cravings (so that I may be free from the samsara in the future)?" 99.99 per cent of the time I am concerned with pleasure - and total cessation doesn't appeal to me at all! The Dhamma doesn't tell me to be ashamed of my worldling reality or to want to replace it with something more commendable. All it requires is that the present reality is understood. ------------------- T: > I think Kel is using the 'goal' as a conventional truth. Remember the Bodhisatta's goal to become a Buddha? ----------- Yes, the Bodhisatta's vow expressed the greatest possible goal requiring the greatest possible sacrifice. But even that must be understood in terms of fleeting, unsatisfactory, non-self dhammas. Kind regards, Ken H 41535 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/30/05 2:24:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > well, you know. This was in the context of conditioned dhammas. > Nina. ================== Okay. Point taken! :-) Actually, the way I usually distinguish nama from rupa (for my own benefit) is that nama is what is knowable *only* through the mind door. (The only trouble with that, unfortunately, is the water element, which, according to Abhidhamma, is a rupa known only through the mind door. However, if there is going to be an exception to a definition, I would rather it be the water element that is the exception than nibbana. :-) With metta, Howard > op 30-01-2005 17:59 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >So, in that case, what object does nibbana experience? :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41536 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 3. Hi Nina, Do you see a difference between "feeling experiences tangible data" and "feeling is an experience conditioned by tangible data"? I think you are using a subject/object model in your understanding of the role of objects. This leads to a belief in self, as you know. If one nama cognizes another dhamma, then that nama is playing the role of subject, a doer. I agree that some of the wording of abhidhamma suggests a subject/object model, but I think we have to reason our way around that obstacle and see it in a different way. This is what commentators do ;-) Larry 41537 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Kel (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/30/05 3:06:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, kelvin_lwin@y... writes: > From following this thread I got general questions. Why can't > both ways work? If one is able to see paramattha dhammas directly > then they would work with that. If not they can work with pannatti > and work toward paramattha. Also if someone is able to be > completely within present moment during everyday activities then do > that. If other people need quiet and dedicated sessions of > meditation to get to that level then let them do that. Or mix and > match the two as required. Why does it all have to be one way or > another? > > - Kel > > ==================== Well, of course. But the "paramatthic person" ypu speak of is quite a rarity, and doesn't have far to go. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41538 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Hi Nina, In the sutta reference to contact being like small creatures nibbling on the flesh of a hideless cow (SNII,12), it is interesting to compare this to consciousness being like a man being pierced by 300 arrows, in the same sutta. This suggests to me that contact is preliminary or subtle consciousness and consciousness is full blown consciousness. Does contact only apply to consciousness and feeling or does it apply to all the cetasikas that arise? Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html 41539 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. - I clearly understand and agree with you about the following (basic) concepts: 1) the dhammas possess the characteristic called 'Anatta', because of 'sabba dhamma anatta' (including the Nibbana); 2) all beings and their desires (to practice or do whatever) are describable in terms of rupa and nama. The comment that most of the time you are concerned with pleasure is beside the point! :-) It is the lack of penetrating insights that makes the continuous streams of arising/passing away of realities look and feel like there is a self (atta) involved-- it is an illusion. KH: All it requires is that the present reality is understood. T: If you mean 'understood' in terms of adhi-panna, then it will be a long while for me before the ultimate realities are seen the way they really are. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Kel), > > ------------------ > T: > The unfinished discussion between you two is very interesting > to me. > ------------------ > > Thank you, it is very interesting to me too. Kel thinks we should > agree to disagree, but I don't agree with that at all. :-) > (snipped) 41540 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? Hi all I've been curious about this passage from an Ayya Khema Dhamma talk: "All happenings act as triggers for us - but there are only two reactions - equanimity and craving." I also seem to remember learning that there is no dosa that is not preceded by lobha, or words to that effect. So, let's say I'm walking down the street and someone shoves me. Of course, a reaction of aversion will quickly arise. It would seem to the conventional mind that it is this aversion which is the first response. But in fact it is preceded ever so briefly by lobha? Attachment to what? Calm? Metta? Not being shoved by passing strangers? That's a crude example, but... Is dosa always at least partially conditioned by lobha that precedes it? Metta, Phil 41541 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 4 a your messengers? Hi all >The Buddha spoke to the monks > about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. It seems to me that there are also messengers that serve to teach us about the Second Noble Truth, about clinging. Let me tell you about a messenger I think about a lot. When I was about 9 I was walking along a street with my mother and I saw an old man on a stoop (front steps) eating an ice-cream cone. I can still remember suddenly being overcome by a strong sense of compassion for him. He wasn't *that* old - the compassion was related to the sight of him eating ice cream. Why would a little kid feel compassion instead of desire to eat ice cream? Until I was in my late 20s, I never had any similar experiences. But I think about him a lot. I think he was a messenger in some way, and that moment of insight into the way people crave comfort in a kind of lovable way conditioned my current interest in Brahma-Viharas. I still feel copmpassion and affection when I see people eating junk food or drinking alcohol. People are so lovable, so pathetic - myself included, of course - in the way they seek comfort and reassurance, often in ways that are bad for them. Do you all have certain messengers that stick out in your mind? Metta, Phil p.s Seems to be a lot of ice-cream talk here. Rob K's story about being so uptight about lobha early on that he resisted eating ice- cream, Rob M feeding ice cream to the monks.... 41542 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, Well, you don't need to defend yourself necessarily, but I was just reacting to what you wrote. I know it seemed kinda strong but I don't mince words ;-). If you state things along the lines of "Oh, I once thought the suttas were advocating conventional actions and then I learned the error of my ways" you are likely to get a response from me. (For the same reason I am always after your wife for her "Oh, I once thought that meditation was helpful and then I learned the error of my ways" stance ;-)) Jon: I don't see the kind of dichotomy you do. James: I know you don't, that is the problem. But the Abhidhamma and the Suttas do have two different approaches. Allow me to quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi to demonstrate that I am not the only one who sees this: "This difference in technique between the two methods also influences their respective terminologies. In the Suttas the Buddha regularly makes use of conventional language (voharavacana) and accepts conventional truth (sammutisacca), truth expressed in terms of entities that do not possess ontological ultimacy but can still be legitimately referred to them. Thus in the Suttas the Buddha speaks of "I" and "you," of "man" and "woman," of living beings, persons, and even self as though they were concrete realities. The Abhidhamma method of exposition, however, rigorously restricts itself to terms that are valid from the standpoint of ultimate truth (paramatthasacca): dhammas, their characteristics, their functions, and their relations. Thus in the Abhidhamma all such conceptual entities provisionally accepted in the Suttas for purposes of meaningful communication are resolved into their ontological ultimates, into bare mental and material phenomena that are impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen, empty of any abiding self or substance." http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html Jon: I'm afraid I have no idea which of the suttas topics I've been involved in lately you have in mind here, but if you'd care to give an example or two, I'd be happy to respond (defend myself ;-)). James: Nope ;-) You made the generalization first. If you care to give some specific examples of when you "saw the light", so to speak, then I can respond to those. Metta, James 41543 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry When you talk about perversion of preception, perversion only happen if and only if sanna is associated with the akusala roots. Sanna by itself is neuter, only becomes kusala or akusala due to its association with the roots. It is not the cause of error, it is the arising of lobha and moha associated with sanna that is the cause of the error. Similarly a Buddha and a worlding see the same concept, why would a Buddha react with wisdom and me 99.9% of the time with ignorance. Think about it ;-) Cheers Ken O 41544 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/30/05 5:34:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Jon, I'm really confused by your position. You seem to be saying that > >a concept exists at the moment of its mental conception, but that it has no > > >prior existence. > > > > Yes, I can see how my post could be read that way, but in fact I was > using the term 'exist' without agreeing that that was the case, since > the focus of the post was TG's reference to prior/previous 'existence' > of concepts before the moment of their becoming object of > mind-consciousness. > > > >So what? That is precisely the case for any citta as well, is > >it not? All of a sudden I seem to be seeing you as taking concepts to be > actual > >momentary phenomena. Am I misunderstanding you? > > > > > > Sorry for the confusion. No, if something was an actual momentary > phenomena then it would not fall within the meaning of the term 'concept'. > > Jon > ===================== Whew! (Expression of relief!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41545 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:39pm Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Ken O, Ken O: Nope, Buddha did practise jhanas as I said in MN titled "the Noble Search" from the brahim masters. James: Nope, the Buddha didn't practice the jhanas, the practiced the immaterial attainments (I will explain the difference below). I think that maybe you should re-read the sutta you are referencing; maybe quoting from it, when you want to prove something, would help your memory. Ken O: If the first jhana he attained during childhood is with wisdom, then he will be at least a stream entrant at that time. James: Who says so? The first jhana isn't a requirement for sotapanna as far as I know (it seems that list of requirements for sotapanna just keeps growing and growing! ;-) KenO: The jhanas he remember is the same he has been practising for countless lives, mundane jhanas – of no use - only lead to kusala birth. James: The sutta doesn't mention that, it only mentions his remembrance of his childhood experience of jhana. If you have textual support that he practiced the jhanas in previous lifetimes, I would be very interested to read that. In other words, please quote that textual support. KenO: The four jhanas are listed while the immaterial jhanas are not listed because any being during enlightment will experience the material jhanas (If my memory does not fail me). James: Huh? That sutta was about samadhi (concentration) and the four possible practices and outcomes. The immaterial attainments (sometimes called immaterial jhanas, even though they aren't jhanas) are not listed because they are not attained through concentration practice. Again, they are not jhanas. KenO: hmmmm, maybe you like to quote the text to prove that I am getting old and my memory is getting bad (ahhh impermance). James: Actually, I shouldn't have to quote any text because you are the first one to say that the Buddha's former teachers taught him the jhanas. I said they didn't. Therefore, it is your responsibility to show that they did because you made the original argument. However, since you seem to have an allergy to quoting material ;-)), I will do it: "Having thus gone forth in search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I went to Alara Kalama and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Kalama, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'… 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness… "In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.'… I went to Uddaka Ramaputta and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Uddaka, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'… So I went to Uddaka and said, 'To what extent did Rama declare that he had entered & dwelled in this Dhamma?' When this was said, Uddaka declared the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception…. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left. James: Therefore, you should be able to see from the quoted material that the Buddha didn't learn the four jhanas from his former teachers, and he didn't even learn all four immaterial attainments, he only learned `dimension of nothingness' and `dimension of neither perception or non-perception". Now, what is the difference between the jhanas and the immaterial attainments? First, as I have shown, the jhanas rely heavily on concentration while the immaterial attainments do not. This is how the Buddha described to achieve the immaterial attainments: "Then again the monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One. "Then again the monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, thinking, 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One…etc. for the other four immaterial attainments. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn026.html James: Therefore, the immaterial attainments require the meditator to remove his mind from the perceptions of the body and to project his mind to the realm of infinite space by thinking "Infinite Space", to the realm of infinite consciousness by thinking `Infinite Consciousness'.etc. for the other immaterial attainments. Therefore, the jhanas are not required for the immaterial attainments- yet the immaterial attainments can be achieved from the fourth jhana because it is while in the fourth jhana that perceptions of the body cease through concentration. The other significant difference is that the jhanas produce pleasure while the immaterial attainments do not. The Buddha hadn't practiced them previously because he was an ascetic and ascetics were not supposed to experience pleasure. Metta, James 41546 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/30/05 5:39:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > You say here that 'there may well be phenomena/events arising outside of > experience' which are unexperienced. However, I was asking about a > statement you made in relation to presently experienced phenomena, to > the effect that these phenomena 'are created at that very moment of > consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness > of which they are the object'. I was wondering what was the basis for > that statement, (and it's implication that those phenomena are created > by the consciousness, if that is also implied). > > Jon > ================== The *experienced* object (*as* experienced object) was created at the moment of its being experienced, with the object and the awareness of it co-arising. As to whether or not there is an unexperienced something-or-other "underlying" the object of awareness (i.e., underlying the seen sight, heard sound, or tasted flavor, or whatever) at the time of the arising of that object of awareness or preceding it is unknowable, and, in my opinion, is pragmatically ignorable. But I was not addressing an imagined underlying something-or-other. I was speaking of the experiential object, and an object of experience is mutually dependent on and co-arising with the experience of it. I hope I'm making myself clear on this. It isn't easy to do do. Oh, one more thing. I was *not* implying that consciousness creates its objects. I see consciousness and its object as mutually dependent and co-arising. If anything, I give more weight to the experienced object - which I prefer to call "experiential content" - than I do to the experiencing of it, because I consider the experiencing of an object to be merely experiential presence of the object. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41547 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 4 a your messengers? Hi, Phil - No comments below by me, Phil. I just wanted to let you know that I think this is a perfectly lovely post of yours!! Beautiful and moving. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/30/05 8:36:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: > > Hi all > > >The Buddha spoke to the monks > >about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. > > It seems to me that there are also messengers that serve to teach > us about the Second Noble Truth, about clinging. > > Let me tell you about a messenger I think about a lot. > > When I was about 9 I was walking along a street with my mother and > I saw an old man on a stoop (front steps) eating an ice-cream cone. I > can still remember suddenly being overcome by a strong sense of > compassion for him. He wasn't *that* old - the compassion was related > to the sight of him eating ice cream. Why would a little kid feel > compassion instead of desire to eat ice cream? Until I was in my late > 20s, I never had any similar experiences. But I think about him a lot. > I think he was a messenger in some way, and that moment of insight > into the way people crave comfort in a kind of lovable way > conditioned my current interest in Brahma-Viharas. I still feel > copmpassion and affection when I see people eating junk food or > drinking alcohol. People are so lovable, so pathetic - myself > included, of course - in the way they seek comfort and reassurance, > often in ways that are bad for them. > > Do you all have certain messengers that stick out in your mind? > > Metta, > Phil /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41548 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Ken, If this is the way it is I guess I made a mistake. Btw, the difference between the Buddha's perception and yours is nibbana. They aren't the same. Larry ------------------------- Ken: "Hi Larry When you talk about perversion of preception, perversion only happen if and only if sanna is associated with the akusala roots. Sanna by itself is neuter, only becomes kusala or akusala due to its association with the roots. It is not the cause of error, it is the arising of lobha and moha associated with sanna that is the cause of the error. Similarly a Buddha and a worlding see the same concept, why would a Buddha react with wisdom and me 99.9% of the time with ignorance. Think about it ;-) Cheers Ken O" 41549 From: Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? In a message dated 1/30/2005 5:25:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: Hi all I've been curious about this passage from an Ayya Khema Dhamma talk: "All happenings act as triggers for us - but there are only two reactions - equanimity and craving." I also seem to remember learning that there is no dosa that is not preceded by lobha, or words to that effect. So, let's say I'm walking down the street and someone shoves me. Of course, a reaction of aversion will quickly arise. It would seem to the conventional mind that it is this aversion which is the first response. But in fact it is preceded ever so briefly by lobha? Attachment to what? Calm? Metta? Not being shoved by passing strangers? That's a crude example, but... Is dosa always at least partially conditioned by lobha that precedes it? Metta, Phil Hi Phil There are three types of craving that arise due to three types of feeling... 1) Craving for sensual pleasure ... which arises during neither-pleasurable-nor-unpleasureable feeling 2) Craving for continuance ... which arises during pleasurable feeling. 3) Craving for dis-continuance ... which arises during unpleasant feeling. Craving has three aspects, the last one listed being aversion. No need to think of lobha as somehow "jumping in front." TG 41550 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:20pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 112 - Concentration/ekaggataa (h) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Some people believe that in the development of vipassanå they should try to focus on particular nåmas and rúpas in order to know them as they are. If concentration accompanies a citta with desire for result it is wrong concentration. So long as one has not become a sotåpanna ( the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment) the inclination to wrong practice has not been eradicated. We may still be led by desire and then we are on the wrong way. When a nåma or rúpa appears through one of the six doors there can be mindfulness of it and then, at that moment, right understanding of that reality can be developed. Right understanding is accompanied by right concentration ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41551 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven Nananada & Nibbana Hi TG & Cosmique, I wrote a series of posts ages ago with lots of quotes from the commentary to the Udana on the verses you are discussing. (see Useful Posts in files – Udana-Nibbana). You may find the quotes helpful for reference or comparison. This is from one of them #8908: ================================= S:> Udana VIII.1 > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... S:> note that in the Masefield translation and Com notes which I’m using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in‘There is, monks,that base’ (tadayatanam) ******************** (p.1012 Udana com): “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception’.” ******************** In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these lines are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of the elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even so, all ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are also absent.< ======================================== Metta, Sarah ======== 41552 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:15pm Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Robert: So its useful to know what wrong concentration is: > > In the Dhammasangani under Akusala dhammas > > 386- What is the power of concentration? > > That which is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, > > unshakeableness, non-distraction, imperturabilty, tranquility of > > mind, the faculty of concentration, power of concentration, WRONG > > concentration- this is at that time the power of concentration. ==================================== > > > Phillip: Not quite clear about what this is saying. Surely not that > stability of mind etc always involve wrong power of concentration? It > is saying that stability of mind etc that result from concentration > is akusala if it's WRONG concentration? But the passage above doesn't > make it clear to me what wrong concentration is. ============== Dear Phil, it is simply describing the characteristics of miccha samadhi, wrong concentration. One can concentrate on the breath, for instance, and eventually feel very tranquil with strong concentration- but have developed only Miccha Samadhi associated with subtle lobha. That is one reason why objects such a death (maranasati) are recommended:?@meditation on breath is subtle and can easily be done with attachment, whereas the object of death is not so refined and does not encourage attachment (although of course it can). ----------------------------------------------- > I guess many meditators in the West (especially) mistake this nice > and peaceful feeling for a kind of liberating wisdom. Defilements > have been supressed, so there is a sense of having cut through the > cloud of ignorance, but that's not the case. When the concentration > is removed, the defilements will spring back up with the same force > they had before (when conditions are there) and perhaps even > fortified because there is added ignorance. =============== here you are talking about genuine right concentartion at the level of samatha, which does supress defilements. BUT the dhammasangani is talking about pure lobha, desire. The defilements are not supressed, they are being increased during miccha samadhi. Robertk 41553 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya and mutuality condition. Dear Htoo, Nina & Steve, I thought your discussion on these conditions was very helpful. A good post from Htoo and excellent qus from Stever and clarifications from Nina. Look forward to more joint efforts. I agree with Nina, U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations (PTS)is an extremely helpful book and not too difficult to follow at all. Metta, Sarah > N: The condition which is sahajaata-paccaya concerns many dhammas, > and the mutuality condition only a few. > As to c, there is a differentiation. At the first moment of our life, > three dasakas, groups of rupa arise at the same time as rebirth- > consciousness, but only the heart-base and the rebirth-consciousness > condition one another by way of mutuality condition. It cannot be > said of the bodysense or sex decad that arise at that time.The 4 > great elements are related to each other by way of sahajata paccaya > and mutuality but as to the derived rupas that arise together with > these,there is no mutuality relation between the four great Elements > and the derived rupas.You may like to get Guide to conditional > Relations, U Narada. > Nina. 41554 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:00am Subject: Comments invited Dear Group, A good friend on another list asked me four questions - 1. >who do you think you are? 2. >who do you think this "self" is? 3. >where do "you" come from? 4. >where will "you" go when you depart? I would be sincerely interested in anyone's reply regarding my current understanding, with respect to the Buddha's teachings, and their own views as well: CJF: "1. I note that you requested the reply to be in my own words - 'not what some scribe wrote down 2000+ years ago'. But ... whatever each of us is, is merely the accumulation, the consequence, of everything that has been experienced before. Our current personalities, our ethics, our political beliefs, the way we see the world, our spiritual beliefs are all conditioned by, and are a direct result, of our past - the parents, the family, the ethnic group, the nation, the time period into which we are born, and what has happened to us since birth. It also depends on the genetic inheritance of this material form, this body, and its capabilities both mental and physical. So ... I could recite a litany covering all of the above concerning myself, but still not be aware of all of the main influences that formed "me". 2. and 3. I once believed in a soul, an awareness, who was eternal, who inhabited this body like a letter in an envelope. I accepted the whole X-tian deal. I was baptised, went to sunday school, church, youth groups, taught sunday school in my turn, married a X-tian, worked hard to pay for private X-tian schooling for my son and daughter who began to repeat the above pattern. I was hazy about how I came to be, but accepted the theistic view of an omnipotent being who created all. I don't believe that now. I believe this 'self' is nothing substantial, merely a temporary combination of temporary phenomena - never static, always changing, nothing that stays. 4. I don't think there is a departing of anything - the body of Christine will die, the mental factors of Christine will extinguish. Nothing of Christine will remain. As to what happens after that ... currently I go along with what I think the Buddha taught - that the energy of craving and unextinguished kamma/vipaka will instantly seek a new physical vehicle, not necessarily human. Nothing that can be called another version of Christine, nothing of which it could be said 'this is mine, this I am, this is my self'." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 41555 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Htoo, Sorry for delays as usual. I've snipped your points where there's no controversy and we're in agreement (just leavin a little for context). --- htootintnaing wrote: > 1) kamma condition or 'kamma paccaya' > > There are 2 kinds of condition in kamma paccaya. They are > > a) sahajaata kamma paccaya and > b) naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya <...> > Naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya > > a) causal dhamma or paccaya dhamma are > > 14 akusala cetasikas and 19 sobhanasaadhaarana cetasikas all > together 33 cetasikas and these are cetasikas that arisen in the past > when kusala or akusala were being done. > > b) conditioned dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma is > > 36 vipaka cittas and their associated cetasikas, all cittaja rupas > that derived from these 36 vipaka cittas except 2 vinatti rupas and > patisanbdhi kammaja rupas. > > c) conditionality is called 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. > > If you are thinking with akusala cittas then there are akusala > cetasikas along with those akusala cittas and they condition later > dhamma as 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. This does not need to be > kamma patha. .... S: ...and when it is not kamma patha (even partial factors), I understand they are conditioning later akusala cittas and cetasikas by pakatupanissaya (natural decisive support condition), not kamma condition. .... > Pakati-upanissaya paccaya or pakatu-panissaya paccaya or natural > decisive support condition has a wide range of conditions. Among them > there include raga or lust, dosa or hatred, moha or ignorance, maana > or conceit, ditthi or wrong-view, pattana or expectation are some > part of natural decisive support condition. ... S: Yes, exactly. ..... > > The difference is that kamma paccaya is related to akusala and kusala > dhamma when it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. If cetana cetasika > arise along with kiriya cittas then those 19 cetasikas > (sobhasaadhaarana cetasikas) do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma > paccaya because it is kiriya and not akusala or kusala. ... S: We’re not discussing kiriya cittas here. With regard to the accumulation of kusala and akusala, how do you differentiate between these two conditions if you say none of the kamma patha factors need be present for naanaakkhanika-kamma-paccaya (asychronous kamma condition) to operate? …. .When you are > just thinking with kusala or akusala then it is not kiriya and it > does have kamma effect and it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. It > does not need to be kamma patha to be repeated. …. S: To be repeated or accumulated, it doesn’t need kamma patha, but I don’t think this is by kamma paccaya. The cetana and all other factors are accumulating by pakatupanissaya and other conditions, I believe. As I asked before, otherwise, why differentiate between kilesa vatta (round of defilements) and kamma vatta (round of kamma)? …. > S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. > I'm curious to read this thread! > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. I was just refering to the effect. Karuna just lasts a moment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I’d have to think about this. So you’re saying that when the Buddha’s feet ‘came out’ after his parinibbana, it was by the effect of his previous karuna, not the effect of Maha Kassapa’s cittas? Maybe a combination – this was only for Maha Kassapa. This is what it says in the comy to the Parinibbana Sutta (just before the funeral pyre caught fire by itself), ‘ “Then the Venerable Mahaakassapa went to Kusinaaraa …he saluted with his head”: the elder, they say, having circumambulated the pyre, noticed on careful observation: “Here are the feet. “ Then, standing near the feet, he attained the fourth jhana which is the basis of intuitive knowledge (abhi~n~naa-paada) and emerged from it. Then he determined, “Let the feet of the One of the TenPowers, decorated with the mark of a wheel with a thousand spokes, split in two the hundered pairs of cloth with layers of cotton, and the golden vessel, and the pyre of sandalwood, and be placed on my head.” At his resolve, the feet emerged splitting in two those pairs of cloths and the other things, like the full moon coming out from amidst the clouds. The elder stretched out his hands like blossoming red lotuses wide, and tightly grasped the gold-coloured feet of the Teacher as far as the ankles, and put them on his noble head. So it is said, “uncovering his feet, he worshipped the feet of the Blessed One with his head”.’ …. > 2 teams of forces that support the king citta. Obviously saddha is > like a leader and I appointed him as a commander (army and navy) and > appointed in both teams. 12 cetasikas are easy to group. From 7 when > saddha is removed as it is already appointed as general or admiral > there left 6 cetasikas and I group them into 2 of 3 cetasikas. These > idea just came as a flash of light and I caught it and jotted down > for later use. > > That simile is for easy remembrance and not to dilute or dissuade or > deviate the already existing Dhamma. … S: I appreciate all these helpful efforts of yours. Please don’t be concerned about mistakes with English and so on. Even we native speakers make them;-). Conveying the true Dhamma and discussing it as we are doing is what counts . Metta, Sarah p.s As I said, I thought the sahajata paccaya discussion was v.useful. I particularly liked the first page of your intro, expaining all the terms. One detail I'm not sure of here: Htoo: "Cakkhu pasada rupa also serves as vatthu or ground for related cittas and cetasikas. Throughout the process there are 14 vithi cittas." S: Surely, cakkhu pasada rupa is the vatthu or ground only for cakkhu vinnana citta (seeing consciousness), even though it's the door for the whole process? ========= 41556 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, I'm glad we agree on the basics. There seems to have been some disagreement where I said:"All [the Dhamma] requires is that the present reality is understood." ------------- T: If you mean 'understood' in terms of adhi-panna, then it will be a long while for me before the ultimate realities are seen the way they really are. ------------- Maybe so, but, if there are only dhammas (no us), does it matter? We think it matters because of moha (we don't know there are only dhammas). We are dissatisfied with our lot because of moha and dosa. And we want to do something about it because of moha and lobha. I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? Let's enjoy it! :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Ken H. - > > I clearly understand and agree with you about the following (basic) > concepts: 1) the dhammas possess the characteristic called 'Anatta', > because of 'sabba dhamma anatta' (including the Nibbana); 2) all > beings and their desires (to practice or do whatever) are describable > in terms of rupa and nama. 41557 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Htoo, Again I’ve snipped your interesting and helpful comments which we have no disagreement about. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Sarah continued: > > #40779 DT222 > > Several times you say vipaka cittas arise `RIGHTLY' but > javana cittas > may vary. I follow you and I like the Burmese expression > `Vipaka's > right, javana may not be right'. You gave an example of how > smelling > or seeing rotten flesh is definitely a disagreeable object or see or > hear about a disaster. I discussed this topic before with other > friends. > > As a general rule, what you say is correct, but in fact, it depends > on the vipaka at that moment whether really anything unpleasant is > seen, heard or smelt. Again, I'd be wary of such > `blanket' or > definite rules. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is not my blanket. It is written in Abhidhammatthasangaha by > Venerable Anuruddha of Tumuulasoma Monastry of Celon or Sri Lanka. > > 'Sabbatthaapi panettha anitthe aarammane akusalavipakaaneva > pancavinnana sampaticchana santirana tadaarammanaani' > > 'Itthe kusalavipakaani' > > 'Ati-itthe pana somanassa saha gataa neva santirana tadaarammanaani' …. S: If I understand, you are quoting the text which indicates that if an undesirable object is experienced, it is akusala vipaka and vice versa. (translations in future, please, otherwise we’ll get complaints!!) Of course, there’s no disagreement on this. My point was that we can say in general that when we see rotten flesh or hear about a disaster, that’s it’s akusala vipaka, but this is just speaking conventionally. In reality, it depends at that very instant whether there are conditions for kusala or akusala vipaka to arise and experience a desirable or undesirable object. When we hear about a disaster, for example, only sound is experienced. It may be a pleasant sound when a news broadcaster speaks gently. The unpleasantness may just be in the subsequent thinking with dosa. …. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah continued: > > Similarly,when it comes to golden images or even a Buddha statue, it > would depend on the result of kamma at that very moment of seeing or > touching, whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka. For most people, I > agree – that's why we read these examples in the texts. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Again Venerable wrote here like this.. > > 'Tatthaapi somanassa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane somanassa > sahagataa neva tadaarammanaani bhavanti' > > 'upekkhaa sahagata kiriya javanaa vasaane ca upekkhaa sahagataa neva > honti'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: If I follow you (with trouble), you’ve missed my point here. We’re not talking about tadarammana cittas. … > Sarah continued: > ….. > #40782 DT223 > > You continue with this topic and say that if it is a highly agreeable > object, the next javana cittas will all be mahakusala or mahakiriya, > followed by kusala vipaka tadarammana. Are you sure this is true? Ah, > you go on to say there are some exceptional cases. Devadatta, surely. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I have quoted above. If the perception is felt through mahakusala or > mahakiriya then 2 following tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka and > they cannot be [CANNOT BE] akusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. … S: No problem, but we were talking about the javana cittas, not the tadarammana cittas as I understood. …. > > I did show the example of Devadattha. In that case, vipaka is still > right. I means after the kiriya citta of panca-dvara-avajjana there > follow 3 cittas which are all vipaka cittas. They are panca-vinnana > citta, sampaticchana citta and santirana citta. Votthapana citta or > manodvara-avajjana citta is a kiriya cittas. Between 2 kiriya cittas > there are 3 vipaka cittas. … S: Yes, but again we were talking about the javana cittas. … > Vipaka is right for all. Even for Devadattha they are kusala vipaka > cittas. But manodvara-avajjana which functions as votthapana citta > decides to fully apperceive as domanassa then all 7 javana cittas > will be domanassa saha gatam patigha sampayutta asankharika cittas > and sasankharika cittas. … S: Yes, akusala cittas following the kusala vipaka. This was my point. No disagreement, here, perhaps a misunderstanding. …. > > But tadarammana vipaka cittas are no more somanassa cittas but > upekkha cittas. These upekkha cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana > cittas. After akusala there follow abyakata dhamma according to > samanantara paccaya. Akusala cittas of Devadattha's dosa javana is > followed by abyakata dhamma vipaka tadarammana cittas. These vipaka > are kusala vipaka. [quote Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha] … S: Yes, exactly right. I also found a long section in the Atthasalini on this topic too (very detailed). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah continued: > > But still, you may be right (that the immediately following javana > cittas would have to be kusala > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. I think you confused with kusala and abyakata dhamma. > Tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. They are not kusala > dhamma. But they may well be abyakata dhamma derived from kusala or > akusala. … S: But I wasn’t talking about tadaarammana cittas!! …. > Htoo: > > Textual reference is already quoted above. Domanassa javana cittas > are akusala dhamma. But tadaarammana cittas are all abyakata dhamma. … S: No disagreement on any of this or on anything to do with tadaarammana cittas;-). I had no trouble with what you wrote about them from the outset. …. ***** S:> Why is concentration on a 'whole circle' kusala in any way? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Because there is sati, saddha, and other components of kusala dhamma > including panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- … S: So it is the cittas and accompanying mental factors that are kusala. Please explain why they are kusala just by concentrating on a ‘whole circle’. If we concentrate on a ‘whole circle’ now, would it be kusala? In other words, there has to be understanding of how the object of samatha conditions calm, otherwise the wholesome cittas can never be developed in this way. … > Htoo: > > The practitioner already drives out attachment, restless and has > developed good nature concentrating on the object and that does work > because there is panna who knows this is lust, this is aversion, this > is ill will, this is restlessness, this is sluggishness, this is > doubt, this is worry etc. > > Both teachers of Bodhisatta did not penetrate anicca-dukkha-anatta > and they both were reborn in arupa brahma realms as puthujana arupa > brahmas. As they are puthujana they will not be able to become > sotapams and so other magga nana cannot be atained as long as in > arupa brahma bhumis. > > But they did have panna which know bad things as bad things like > lust, hatred, worry etc etc. … S: OK, all agreed, but you haven’t said anything about the significance of the ‘whole circle’ or white kasina as an object of samatha here. … **** All your details on the jhana and lokuttara processes are very clear and detailed. No quibbles, but I don’t understand this: > 2nd kind > > Lokuttara cittas > > 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMPUAGMPPBBBBB > > 2nd M is magga citta while 1st M is manodvara-avajjana citta. Magga > citta is immediately followed by 2 phala cittas if the practitioner > is mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or > intelligent person then it will be like this > > 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMUAGMPPPBBBBB > > There are 7 javana cittas in both series. > > In the 1st 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotrabhu, 5.magga, 6. > phala, 7 2nd phala. > > In the 2nd 1.upacara, 2.anuloma, 3. gotrabhu, 4. magga, 5.1st phala, > 6.2nd phala, 7.3rd phala … S: I’m not familiar with these terms ‘ mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or intelligent person’, but I don’t see it as being of any concern for a good long while;-). Just curious about the words ‘less intelligent’ here…. Metta, Sarah ====== 41558 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does/ Jhanas and Ariyas Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Dear Sarah, this is my late reply. Some passed sotapatti magga gate > and they do not practise phala samapatti because they do not have > jhana and they do not practise phala-samapatti. As they attained > sotapatti magga with dry method or without jhana they may not know > when they pass sotapatti magga gate. ... S: This last line is not how I understand the passages from the Abhidammattha Sangaha and its comy which I quoted recently. Are you saying there is no knowledge of having realized nibbana as you understand the texts? I can quote the passages again if you missed them. ... > > This does not means sotapatti magga citta does not know it enters > ariyan area. But the person as we know does not know fully his status > but he is totally free of doubt or suspicion, free of wrong view and > free of rituals [silabbattaparamaasa]. ... S: Also no doubt about attainment. Even for vipassana nanas. ... > Sotapatti magga is a single point. Do you ever remember a single > point in the middle of billions of different citta? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: But here the single point is with the full wisdom of the eightfold path and with nibbana as object, appana samadhi etc. ... ***** > Htoo: > > Regarding asannisatta certain super intelligent one said there are 2 > cittas that arise in asannisattas and they are patisandhi citta and > cuti citta. These 2 are exceptions and in the middle there is no > citta at all. > > I do not believe so. Asannisattas are reborn with rupa-patisandhi and > they die with rupa-cuti. > > Any thought on these 2 cittas? Do cittas arise in asannisattas? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: You're right, of course. It's like nirodha samapatti, which is the temporary suspension of all cittas, cetasikas and mind-produced rupas as you've explained at length.When the anagami or arahant emerge from nirodaha samapatti they experience the phala citta (fruition consciousness) conditioned by the previous citta (before suspension of namas etc)by anantara paccaya (proximity condition). In the same way, in the asanna-satta realm where there is similarly only rupa, only when that lifespan is over, rebirth in the following sensuous realm is conditioned (anantara paccaya again) by the previous dying consciousness in the life before birth in the sanna-satta realm. So there is always continuity. .... > In case of asannisatta, the previous life marana-asanna-javana will > be like > > BBB...BBBPUAGJC |______Asannisattas__________|PBBBBBB.... > > J is 5th rupa jhana citta. It is a single citta. And it is like > abhinnana. Marana-asanna-javana has 5 javana cittas. Here they are > > 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotabhu, 5.5thrupa jhana > > this is followed by cuti citta and then followed by rupa-patisandhi > and then rupa-bhavanga throught out the life and die with rupa-cuti. > > | rupa-patisandhi. rupa-bhavanga.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RB.RC | PBBBBB > > There seem to be no changes during asannisattas' life. But there are > changes. Why? These are rupa dhammas and they arise and fall away. ... S: Excellent (as I understand, of course!!). ... > Htoo: > > Once I said that 'Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind'. Some see and > some do not see. The Buddha helped others to see this Dhamma. ... S: Thx for helping us to see. Metta, Sarah ======== p.s I have lots for Dialogue 3, but also lots of other unanswered posts I wish to respond to.....:-/ I'm a bit slow.... 41559 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hello Sarah and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Azita (& Nina), > ....snip.... > ...and remember all those discussions in India (like in the Gangtok hotel > garden) where we were reminded that it's useless to think about whether > the cittas that have gone already are kusala or akusala or to try and be > aware of them when they arise, because it's all just going to be about > *self* once more - clinging again to a 'purer me'. Far more important is > the development of understanding of present dhammas as not-self with > detachment from whatever is conditioned. Namas have to be known as namas > and rupas as rupas over and over again. > > Yes, when we're 'fussy' about what arises, it shows the attachment to self > again. Azita: totally agree, and I like the 'clinging to a purer me'. That is a perfect description. Actually, those times that the 'less purer me' arises, are great lessons to show me more about latent tendencies. To be surprised by strong akusala shows me that I have this idea that I am beyond that type of behaviour - what a fool, eh? > Hope you're recovered from your surgery, Azita. A; thank you, I feel great, even tho I'm mean and nasty :-)) Back at work and looking forward to our next get together. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41560 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? Hi, TG - The following is wonderfully clear! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/30/05 11:10:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > There are three types of craving that arise due to three types of > feeling... > 1) Craving for sensual pleasure ... which arises during > neither-pleasurable-nor-unpleasureable feeling > 2) Craving for continuance ... which arises during pleasurable feeling. > 3) Craving for dis-continuance ... which arises during unpleasant feeling. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41561 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited In a message dated 1/31/2005 12:04:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: Dear Group, A good friend on another list asked me four questions - 1. >who do you think you are? 2. >who do you think this "self" is? 3. >where do "you" come from? 4. >where will "you" go when you depart? I would be sincerely interested in anyone's reply regarding my current understanding, with respect to the Buddha's teachings, and their own views as well: CJF: "1. I note that you requested the reply to be in my own words - 'not what some scribe wrote down 2000+ years ago'. But ... whatever each of us is, is merely the accumulation, the consequence, of everything that has been experienced before. Our current personalities, our ethics, our political beliefs, the way we see the world, our spiritual beliefs are all conditioned by, and are a direct result, of our past - the parents, the family, the ethnic group, the nation, the time period into which we are born, and what has happened to us since birth. It also depends on the genetic inheritance of this material form, this body, and its capabilities both mental and physical. So ... I could recite a litany covering all of the above concerning myself, but still not be aware of all of the main influences that formed "me". 2. and 3. I once believed in a soul, an awareness, who was eternal, who inhabited this body like a letter in an envelope. I accepted the whole X-tian deal. I was baptised, went to sunday school, church, youth groups, taught sunday school in my turn, married a X-tian, worked hard to pay for private X-tian schooling for my son and daughter who began to repeat the above pattern. I was hazy about how I came to be, but accepted the theistic view of an omnipotent being who created all. I don't believe that now. I believe this 'self' is nothing substantial, merely a temporary combination of temporary phenomena - never static, always changing, nothing that stays. 4. I don't think there is a departing of anything - the body of Christine will die, the mental factors of Christine will extinguish. Nothing of Christine will remain. As to what happens after that ... currently I go along with what I think the Buddha taught - that the energy of craving and unextinguished kamma/vipaka will instantly seek a new physical vehicle, not necessarily human. Nothing that can be called another version of Christine, nothing of which it could be said 'this is mine, this I am, this is my self'." metta and peace, Christine Hi Christine My answer to the four questions would go along the lines of -- They are asked from a false premise and they don't apply. Then I would turn it to a discussion on conditions. This is basically what you did and I like your answers. I might also point out that "my own words" are also conditioned from past learning (as is the questionnaire's) and therefore "freely tap into" whatever source those things I have learned have come from. 2000 years ago or not. TG 41562 From: Hugo Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 4 a your messengers? On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:35:14 -0000, Philip wrote: > I still feel > copmpassion and affection when I see people eating junk food or > drinking alcohol. People are so lovable, so pathetic - myself > included, of course - in the way they seek comfort and reassurance, > often in ways that are bad for them. > > Do you all have certain messengers that stick out in your mind? Little kids. How incredibly fast they attach to things. How they keep doing something that gives them the complete opposite result than the one they want. > p.s Seems to be a lot of ice-cream talk here. Rob K's story about > being so uptight about lobha early on that he resisted eating ice- > cream, Rob M feeding ice cream to the monks.... That reminds me that I ran out of Ice Cream.......gotta go to the supermarket....I am not doing it because I crave for it, I am doing it for Phil, so he can exercise his 4 Brahma Viharas. Phil, you can experience Metta and Karuna now that you know I will be buying Ice Cream, you can experience Mudita when I am enjoying the Ice Cream and finally you can experience Upekkha when you know that I won't give you any Ice Cream (you are too far). :-) -- Hugo 41563 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:49am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken, You made a statement about how the dhammas should be practiced : > KH: > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt > to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? > Let's enjoy it! :-) But it sounds like a plan to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a rowboat. Good luck! Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I'm glad we agree on the basics. There seems to have been some > disagreement where I said:"All [the Dhamma] requires is that the > present reality is understood." > > > ------------- > T: If you mean 'understood' in terms of adhi-panna, then it will be > a long while for me before the ultimate realities are seen the way > they really are. > ------------- > > Maybe so, but, if there are only dhammas (no us), does it matter? We > think it matters because of moha (we don't know there are only > dhammas). We are dissatisfied with our lot because of moha and dosa. > And we want to do something about it because of moha and lobha. > > > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt to the > present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? Let's enjoy > it! :-) > > Ken H > > 41564 From: Hugo Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited Dear Christine, I can't think on anything I would say differently, except for the details regarding Sunday school. -- Hugo 41565 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Howard's suttas, 2. Sutta no 3. Hi Howard, Jon and all, PTS Vol 1,p134. 'Duties' BB's transl, 'Prescribed by the Wise' "Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, service to one's parents." Verse (P.T.S. translation): Giving and harmlessness and self-restraint, Control of sense and service to the parents And holy ones who live the righteous life,- If anyone be wise to do these things By good men favoured, an Ariyan Clear-sighted, will attain the world of bliss. N: the Co states as to prescribed: what the wise prescribe, declare, exhort to. Prescribe: the word paññatti, which can mean regulation, is used here. Thus, these are strong wordings. 'Wise', sappurisa, the Co adds: mahaa-purisa, great men, a term for ariyans. It is repeated: they prescribe, declare, exhort to these things. As to harmlessness, ahimsa, this is compassion and the foundation of it. Control of sense: sa.mvara siila: the guarding of the sense-doors, indriyas. It is said that one trains oneself by means of the uposatha siila. Siila observed on vigil days. Service to mother and father: to take care of them, to protect them, to serve them. Holy ones, this is the translation of santa, calm. The Co states that in other texts this word refers to the Buddha, the Solitary Buddha and all ariyans who are calm. In this context it refers to those who serve their parents. The ariyans are calm in the highest sense, they live the righteous life, brahmacaariya, the superior way of life. The Co. explains that we should understand that the service to one's parents the wise regulate, declare, exhort to, is superior. An Ariyan is clear-sighted: endowed with wisdom (dassana, seeing). Because of the three conditions that are mentioned in the sutta one is an ariyan, a noble person. The Co adds: this word does not denote here a Buddha, etc. or a sotapanna, etc. N: these three conditions are: Giving and harmlessness and self-restraint, control of sense and service to the parents. Harmlessness and self-restraint, control of senses, is summarized in the Sutta as going forth. It is a way of renunciation. It is said that those who serve mother and father are ariyans, noble ones. They are clearsighted. They will have rebirth in heavenly planes. Remark: this sutta reminds us to practice virtues dear to the ariyans, such as service to one's parents. The Co. repeats this with much emphasis. Actually, this sutta points to satipatthana in daily life. Guarding of the sense-doors is achieved by mindfulness of whatever object presents itself through one of the six doorways. At the same time we should practise generosity and compassion. In that way we practise the righteous living, brahmacaariya, namely the development of the eightfold Path and this will lead to becoming an ariyan in the sense of an enlightened person. The wise prescribe, declare, exhort to these things. We are usually heedless, lazy and attached to our own confort. Such strong exhortations are most beneficial to remind us to develop satipatthana and all good qualities, such as helping our parents and our fellowmen. Nina. 41566 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Pilgrimage India 4 b Pilgrimage India 4 b We then read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. We read that King Yama then questioned him about the second divine messenger: ³Did you not see, my good man, the second divine messenger appearing among men?² ³No, Lord, I did not see him.² ³But, my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who was sick and in pain, seriously ill, lying in his own filth, who had to be lifted up by some, and put to bed by others?² ³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.² ³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to sickness and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind²?² ³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.² We read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. King Yama then questioned him about the third divine messenger: ³But my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who had died one day ago or two, or three days ago, the corpse being swollen, discoloured and festering?² ³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.² ³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to death and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind²?² ³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.² We then read that he had to suffer as the result of his evil deeds grievous torments in hell. This sutta exhorts us not to be negligent in kusala, but to perform good deeds through body, speech and mind whenever there is an opportunity. *** Nina 41567 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 31-01-2005 02:21 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w..., > In the sutta reference to contact being like small creatures nibbling on > the flesh of a hideless cow (SNII,12), it is interesting to compare this > to consciousness being like a man being pierced by 300 arrows, in the > same sutta. N: Contact is mental nutrition. It stresses here that it conditions feeling that is dukkha. Citta that is vipaaka is also a mental nutriment. The disadvantage is shown in this sutta. The sutta explains the D.O. L:This suggests to me that contact is preliminary or subtle > consciousness and consciousness is full blown consciousness. Does > contact only apply to consciousness and feeling or does it apply to all > the cetasikas that arise? N: Contact is not citta, it is cetasika, and it accompanies each citta. Without contact citta cannot experience any object. Contact also applies to all the accompanying cetasikas, they all share the object that citta experiences. Nina. 41568 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects, 4. Hi Larry, op 31-01-2005 01:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Do you see a difference between: 1. "feeling experiences tangible data" and >2: "feeling is an experience conditioned by tangible data"? N: I would phrase it in a more precise way: feeling is a type of nama and it is conditioned by tangible data by way of object-condition. 1 and 2 say that feeling experiences an object, but 2 refers to object-condition. L: I think you are using a subject/object model in your understanding of > the role of objects. This leads to a belief in self, as you know. N: I understand what you think here. Actually, this happens all the time, no matter what we are doing, even when performing kusala. The latent tendency of wrong view has not been eradicated. We can also read the whole Tipitaka in the wrong way, thinking of self who studies, who meditates who notes realities. It helps to be on the alert of this. L: If one nama cognizes another dhamma, then that nama is playing the role of > subject, a doer. I agree that some of the wording of abhidhamma suggests > a subject/object model. N: That happens if we read and understand it in the wrong way. L: but I think we have to reason our way around > that obstacle and see it in a different way. This is what commentators > do ;-) N: No need for reasoning around it. In the Tipitaka itself there are many guidelines for us to correct wrong view. We should keep in mind the Buddha's words about the khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas that are impermanent and not self. What arises only for a short moment by a concurrence of conditions has to fall away, how could that be self? Object in the Tipitaka is different from object in some philosophical ways of thinking, referring to subject/object relation. Object arising by a concurrence of conditions falls away immediately, so does the naama that experiences it. I am thinking of Rob K's and my favorite quote about the elements, a text by the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the third Book of the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on Elements (Dhåtu-Kathå, P.T.S.): "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have brought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions."> The Aayatanas help us, they show that there is a momentary association of object and sense-door which conditions the experience of that object, also very momentary. A concurrence of conditions: without the eye-door adverting-citta that is the first citta of the eye-door process there could not be seeing. Kamma produces seeing that is vipaaka. Without contact there could not be seeing. As to feeling, we have to remember the satipatthana sutta: see feeling in feeling, not self. No matter whether it is pleasnat, unpleasant or indifferent feeling. A review about occasion, samaya (Dhannasanagani: at that occasion arises mahaa-kusala citta with paññaa associated with pleasant feeling and the all the other accompanying cetasikas): Another review: <...the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out 'the extreme rarity of such moments'. It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: 'as difficult for the mind as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning-flash, because of its extremely short duration.' > Nina. 41569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Experience of objects,mind-door. Hi Howard, op 31-01-2005 01:46 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Actually, the way I usually distinguish nama from rupa (for my own > benefit) is that nama is what is knowable *only* through the mind door. (The > only trouble with that, unfortunately, is the water element, which, according to > Abhidhamma, is a rupa known only through the mind door. However, if there is > going to be an exception to a definition, I would rather it be the water > element> that is the exception than nibbana. :-) N: I am sorry to disappoint you, but water is not the only rupa. The only rupas that are experienced through the sense doors are: three great elements that are tangible object, visible object, sound, odour and flavour. They can be experienced through the relevant sense-door and the mind-door. All the other rupas cannot be experienced through a sense-door. Take nutrition, life faculty, the senses, etc. these are experienced only through the mind-door. I think to distinguish nama (not talking now about nibbana) from rupa is to remember: nama experiences and rupa does not experience anything. This is important. No danger of subject/object relation here, if one remembers what the Buddha stressed all the time (see my mail to Larry). I know Dan mentioned subject/object, but it need not be any issue or problem. In this way one gets used to characteristics and there is no need to think of doorways. Nina. 41570 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:33am Subject: Sarah: Ven. Nanananda and Nibbana Hi Sarah I accidentally deleted the comments or references you posted regarding the topic Cosmique and I were discussing. If not too much trouble, would you please send again. Thanks. TG 41571 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:42am Subject: Dhamma Thread (251) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 woeful planes of existence or 4 apaya bhumis. All these 4 realms have been discussed in the previous posts. Regarding 'rebirth' or 'patisandhi' arising in any of these 4 realms is called 'apaya patisandhi'. There are 7 profitable realms or 7 kama sugatai bhumis or 7 sensuous planes that are profitable for beings. These 7 realms are 1. manussa bhumi or 'human realm' 2. catu-maha-rajika bhumi or 4-deva-king realm 3. tavatimsa bhumi or 33-devas realm 4. yaamaa bhumi or yaamaa deva realm 5. tusitaa bhumi or tusitaa deva realm 6. nimmanarati bhumi or deva realm of creation 7. paranimmita-vassavati bhumi or deva realm of occupying others' creation All these 7 kama sugati bhumis are profitable for beings if they can use the time properly in these realms. These realms are where beings are reborn with 9 patisandhi cittas. These 9 patisandhi cittas are 1 ahetuka kusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta and 8 mahavipaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41572 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:23pm Subject: Get more dukkha! Hello everyone This morning, over breakfast, Sandra was reminding me of things I have to do today. One of these instructions was "get more dukkha". Not being fully awake, my mind struggled to comprehend. Was she cursing me? Was there some new-fangled theory that more dukkha was desirable? Then it dawned on me. She was talking about "duccah", a mixture of seeds that is sprinkled over warm bread and olive oil. So there you go, kind DSG folk, one and all, a hearty breakfast of dukkha/duccah will give you all the energy you need for the arising of right effort. (-: Best wishes Andrew T 41573 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited Hi Christine, Another way to look at this question, "who do you think you are?" is to ask "who do I think I am right now?" In other words how is self view manifesting right now. This is a useful meditation, to just look at self view as it evolves and changes from moment to moment; but clarity can be hard to come by and divergences very tempting. Larry 41574 From: Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Vism.XIV,135 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 135. (ii) It wills (cetayati), thus it is 'volition' (cetanaa); it collects, is the meaning. Its characteristic is the state of willing. Its function is to accumulate. It is manifested as coordinating. It accomplishes its own and others' functions, as a senior pupil, a head carpenter, etc., do. But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of associated states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so on. 41575 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Kel - Thank you for replying to my questions, some of which I did not have to ask at all, if I had studied the Sayadaw's article beforehand. Kel: Full strength saddha is one that can overcome craving for any kind of existence. The beginning of that article goes into some details about it. Forgive me as I paste more stuff:... T: I am sorry that I was a little lazy and failed to read the article before asking the above question. After seeing "the stuff" you had copied from the article I went to the source and read it over. It is really beneficial for me to keep a copy of the following passage (from this article) at hand; it reminds me about the great value of viriya bala. And it is beyond any doubt that viriya bala that belongs to the 'serious' practitioners is not a wrong effort. The pakati-viriya is actually the wrong effort. "Of the two kinds of viriya, pakati-viriya which has no development practice, associates with kosajja (laziness) according to occasion and produces the pakati-kusala-kamma of dana, the study of the sacred texts, etc. This pakati-viriya cannot dispel kosajja subdues pakati- viriya. When beings encounter a Buddha Sasana, they acquire the knowledge that in the past infinite samsara they have been the kinsfolk of sakkaya- ditthi, the duccarita, and the apaya loka. The sacred Pali Texts clearly prescribe the method of the ariyavamsa, which consists of dispelling kosajja (laziness) and devoting the whole time to bhavanarama (delight in meditation) till release from such state is attained". "It is only bhavana-viriya, such as being satisfied with the minimum of sleep, being always alert and active, being fearless, being bold and firm in living alone, being steadfast in mental advertence, that can dispel kosajja. In the matter of the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma, it is this bhavana-viriya that should be acquired". Kel: In general he likes to use kayagatasati as a basic step of establishing satipatthana. He says after this step, you go to citta vissudhi, purification of the mind or samatha. He doesn't really use satipatthana beyond this step. T: Yes. The Venerable explained that the bhavana panna that "set up the kayagata-sati" was the only panna that can dispel sammoha. He said that anapanasati is the "work of satipatthana". "A person who is afflicted with a major disease, such as leprosy, has no desire to take an interest in the ordinary affairs and undertakings of the world. But if after taking the proper medicines and treatment, the great sickness is gradually cured and he is aroused from his apathy. This is inevitable. The group of five akusala kamma of tanha, kosajja mutthasacca, vikkhepa, and sammoha, resemble five major sicknesses.[120] In the Sasana the work of samatha and vipassana- bhavana resembles the affairs and undertakings of the world. The work of satipatthana, such as anapana-sati, resembles the taking of proper medicines and treatment. The rest of the comparison can be easily recognised". [Footnote 120. Five major sicknesses are: 1. leprosy, 2. boils, 3. tuberculosis, 4. apoplexy, 5. excema.] T: Here, mutthasacca means "inability to become absorbed in the work of samatha- bhavana--such as in kayagata-sati--or in the work of vipassana-bhavana inability to concentrate, inability to control one's mind, and the wandering of thoughts to objects other than the object concentrated on", and vikkhepa means "the inability to concentrate, and of unquietness and restlessness of mind in the work of bhavana manasikara. It is the arising of thoughts on objects other than the object of concentration". Thank you for everything, Kelvin. Kindest regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > I) I assume that the "respective patipakkha dhammas" are those > things > > opposing to the five balas. For example, is tanha a patipakkha > > dhamma to saddha bala and, if it is so, why? > Yes, 5 opposites. Even kusala actions like dana are motivated by > tanha in desiring to be born to higher realms. Full strength saddha > is one that can overcome craving for any kind of existence. The > beginning of that article goes into some details about it. Forgive > me as I paste more stuff: > 41576 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:02pm Subject: for James from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary summary ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths. Right intention (sammasmakappa) is the cetasika of initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. Right mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. Right concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta system." 41577 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hi Phil (Azita, KenH, Sukin & All), --- Philip wrote: > For some reason, Sarah, the following stuck me as a little too > discouraging of ways of making progress. … S: I do understand. What is sweet medicine for one (Azita in this case as I thought it would be for her), is bitter medicine or no medicine for another. Similarly, Ken H’s recent reminders which seemed discouraging to some, were very sweet to me. He wrote: “We are dissatisfied with our lot because of moha and dosa. And we want to do something about it because of moha and lobha. I think “There are only dhammas” is the knowledge we need to acquire….” … S:When we dwell on ‘I was so mean’ or ‘I have so much attachment’, the clinging to self can be seen right then and there. Awareness and understanding can’t know about what’s gone and it’s useless to cling more to past experiences. Only by being aware now, not just thinking, will there be less and less attachment to signs and details as we were reminded again and again on our trip. In the Gangtok garden discussion I mentioned last time, just this point came up. Nina, I think it was, mentioned the difficulties we’d all experienced and chatted about while we were sitting on long bus rides. K.Sujin just interrupted and asked:‘what about now?’. Gradually by developing awareness, it gets used to realities, rather than stories about past or future experiences. In this way, there will be less agitation when there’s akusala of any kind. The stories can be cut just like that. The bus rides, the bumps, the difficulties, the unwholesome thinking – all gone at a moment of awareness. We have to become more and more detached from places, people, special routines and so on as being more suitable too, otherwise there will never be the development of awareness and understanding of present realities. I liked Sukin’s reminders a lot when he stressed we have to examine everything we read and hear (sweet/bitter medicine?): Sukin: ”We can talk about the four factors, hearing the dhamma, associating with the good friend, wise reflection and practice according to the dhamma, but even here, it is not about volition, but rather “panna” in the present moment. So even when we believe in the above four factors, if we seek these out with a wrong idea of ‘self’, ‘other’ and ‘activity’, then even this is wrong.” .... S:As far as I’m concerned, when it comes to an understanding of dhammas as anatta and *not doing anything* in order to develop awareness, what we read or hear can never be extreme enough. Sukin also wrote: “It is not that I don’t think sila is important, but because ‘straightening view’ is primary, and part of this is being alert to ‘self view’, drawing particular attention to other kusala does not occur.”. ..... S:I would add, it's not so much that it 'does not occur', but that there can be more and more detachment from whether the present cittas are kusala or akusala. It reminds me of an occasion a while back when I started to ask K.Sujin about developing metta. She just jumped in before the question was finished with ‘clinging to self’. It was the best bitter medicine at the time. She meant that just by asking the question, it was apparent that it was motivated by attachment and she was right of course. We may feel discouraged or fear that without taking special actions that we will just become meaner and have less metta or even really 'go to the dogs', so to speak. I think the opposite is true. With less thought or concern about oneself or one’s mental states and more understanding about all dhammas, there is the development of higher sila, generosity, metta, understanding of others and so on in addition to satipatthana. We learn more and more about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. [We read in a sutta somewhere that it’s only by living closely with someone for a long time that one will really know their sila. In this regard I’m very fortunate to live with a model example of someone who has never even hinted at the need for any special intentions or efforts to ‘do’ anything and yet who has always kept excellent sila in all regards since I’ve known him with great confidence in all kinds of kusala.] It’s true that we all have different accumulations as you (Phil) always stress, but whatever our ‘lot’, detachment from an idea of self and acceptance with awareness of presently conditioned dhammas is the only way. Higher sila, higher concentration or calmness and eventually higher wisdom can only be perfected by the development of vipassana – the clear ‘seeing’ and penetration of dhammas. Sukin also wrote: “However the theory must match the reality of practice. They must not conflict at any point of time. And at any time there is a ‘self’ with an idea of “doing”, I think such instances, the conflict is there and this expresses itself in silabattaparamasa.” ..... S: I think the path is very subtle and more and more subtle kinds of wrong view and practice become apparent, even as Sukin suggests, while reading dhamma texts, reflecting on past experiences and so on. In the same discussion I referred to last time, K.Sujin was also talking about patipatti (practice). She mentioned that people are attached to patipatti, to practice, but what is it? Who is practicing? What is the object of understanding? Without clear understanding, it can be so far away from an understanding of present dhammas or reality. What is conditioned right now is arising and falling away for good, never to come back. The next moment is already conditioned as it is, kusala or akusala, it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not ‘me’ or ‘I’ who is aware. It’s awareness itself which can arise anytime by conditions and be aware. Don’t expect to have more or follow the wrong path with attachment. She also stressed at this time about developing wise attention of visible object and other realities. Viriya (right effort) is there already. By understanding dhammas, we can get to know what viriya is, *not* by doing something else. No one can do or create any viriya. It’s already there, arising and falling away. Slowly understanding can get to know moments with and without awareness, without thinking and speculating or trying to be aware or clinging to Azita’s or Phil’s stream of cittas being a certain way. Metta, Sarah ======== 41578 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > I'll attempt to give a simple model that I have for workings of > kamma. Htoo will give his own I'm sure. Hallo Kel Thanks for your answer, it was difficult enough: difficult to belief. But first a informational question. You say: "Every being carries that kamma baggage until it has a chance to give results. This baggage is made out of middle 5 out of 7 javana cittas" So kamma is made out of cittas. But what I understood till now is that cittas are arising and falling away, even in a rather quick way: within milliseconds. So how can the kamma-bearing-cittas travel through time ? But even when kamma is continuously transported from a set of cittas to the next set, it's not clear to me how these cittas can carry so much kamma-information: billions of bits? This is where "I don't understand" changes in "I don't belief": I know your big knowledge of Abhidhamma but this sounds so mechanical, not spiritual at all. It does not resonate in me in a manner of "this must be true" like many other parts of the Teachings (as anicca, anatta and the three roots) do resonate. It is like kamma works as 'momentum' and 'energy' in particle physics: one (kamma-)citta moving (=creating) another at the moment it falls away, and all this independent of the physical body to which to kamma is connected. Maybe there are other descriptions, other metaphores that can do the resonating work better on a agnostic westerner? Metta Joop > > But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after > tens > > or hundreds or billions of years ? > > I think it does, otherwise animals, living totally akusala, can > never > > be reborn in higher sentient beings. > No, unfortunately not. Every being carries that kamma baggage > until it has a chance to give results. This baggage is made out of > middle 5 out of 7 javana cittas from every kusala/akusala vithis. > This is of course until one becomes an ariya then the rebirth > quality kamma into lower realms are eliminated but note lesser > intensity kammas remain. > Now I'll go into a bit of detail so bear with me. Let's say > someone committed patricide or some heinous crime in a previous life > (not current). We know there's millions or billions of akusala > vithi for such act. Exactly one vithi (5 cittas together) is used > for rebirth-linking for that person to be born into hell then it's > given result so it's gone. The power of that vithi will determine > what realm of hell and how long the life expectancy is etc. Now the > remaining million will act as "support" kamma. They'll keep that > person there in that realm, keep on suffering and getting used up in > the process (possibly lower intensity vithis). They also might > cause that person to repeatedly reborn into that realm, using up > even more vithis/kamma. Now let's also say that person built stupas > for some Buddha in yet another previous life. They have another > million of kusala kammas. Those kusala kammas might give result to > lessen the suffering in hell existence. One example is being a pet > in America. Some of them have truly luxurious lives but alas they > are still in animal world without a chance to get dhamma. So the > kusala vithis can act as "interferring" kamma to lessen the blow of > akusala kamma. They can also act as "destructive" kamma to put an > end to the existence given by akusala kamma too. Regardless of what > mode they give result in, they are used up. Htoo mentioned in his > dhamma threads of different kammas competiting for a chance to give > resultant. When they don't win, they'll go back to latent stages. > The winner is used up as I said. > > > And when kamma falls away, it does just because it's the time for > it, > > automatically like a rupa falls away after a millisecond (or > > shorter); or is kamma conditioned and does it only falls away when > > conditions for that falling away occur ? Or means 'used up": only > > when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results > of > > it? > Kamma as soon as it's given the result, falls away The effect of > the result remains, ie this body/existence. The remaining kammas > will either prolong or shorten that effect. > > - Kel 41579 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:20am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 113 - Concentration/ekaggataa (i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Right understanding is accompanied by right concentration which has arisen because of the appropriate conditions and which performs its function without the need to think of focusing on a particular object. Mindfulness, right understanding and right concentration are realities which arise because of their own conditions, they are anattå. There is no self who can direct the arising of any citta or who can regulate the experiencing of a particular object. But the conditions for right mindfulness and right understanding can be cultivated; they are: studying the realities the Buddha taught and considering them when they appear in daily life. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41580 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi James Aiya, I said before already, one cannot go into immaterial jhanas without going through the material jhanas ;-). > James: Who says so? The first jhana isn't a requirement for > sotapanna as far as I know (it seems that list of requirements for > sotapanna just keeps growing and growing! ;-) k: Usually in the sutta, the first jhanas in the Buddha dhamma is always associated with sotapanna, may not be always true :) > James: The sutta doesn't mention that, it only mentions his > remembrance of his childhood experience of jhana. If you have > textual support that he practiced the jhanas in previous lifetimes, > > I would be very interested to read that. In other words, please > quote that textual support. k: James if jhanas is the cause of enlightment as I said again, many brahims will have been enlighted way before. Why do some practitioners become enlighted while some dont even though they experience the same jhanas. Ken O 41581 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread (252) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 11 kama bhumis or 11 sensuous planes of existence. They are 1. niraya bhumi or hell realm 2. tiracchana bhumi or animal realm 3. peta or petta bhumi or hungry ghost realm 4. asurakaya bhumi or demon realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm 6. catu-maha-rajika bhumi or 4-great-king deva realm 7. tavatimsa deva bhumi or 33-devas deva realm 8. yaamaa deva bhumi or yaamaa deva realm 9. tusitaa deva bhumi or tusitaa deva realm 10.nimmanarati deva bhumi or creating-deva realm 11.paranimmita-vassavati deva bhumi or occupier-of-creation deva realm In these realms 54 kamavacara cittas are dominant and most frequently arising cittas. The first 4 realms are called apaya bhumis or woeful realms. Akusala santirana vipaka citta serves as rebirth-consciousness in these 4 realms. The other 7 realms are called kama-sugati realms. In these 7 realms kusala vipaka santirana citta and 8 mahavipaka cittas serve as rebirth-consciousness or patisandhi-cittas. To be reborn in manussa bhumi or human realm one of these 9 patisandhi cittas has to arise as patisandhi citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41582 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:47am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, > > KH: > > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt > > to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? > > Let's enjoy it! :-) > Tep: > But it sounds like a plan to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a rowboat. > > Good luck! ------------- That is hardly the enthusiastic response I was hoping for. :-) How would you have responded had you been one of the merchants mentioned in the suttas (I think I can find the exact sutta if you want): They asked the Buddha how they should live their lives, and his answer was, ""As to the teaching of the Tathagata, profound, deep in meaning, concerned with anatta . . ., from time to time we shall spend our days learning it." That is how you should live your lives." Ken H 41583 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry Sorry for being too crytic at times because sometimes I just do not have inspiration to write better, like a writer block ;-) I have find an extract from a sutta, SN III, Khandhasamyutta, Nakulapita <> My notes: In this sutta, Buddha states that when perceptions associated with me, mine and myself. There arise suffering. In this way we can see that perceptions associated with the three roots are the cause of suffering. Then later in the same sutta, the Buddha said that <<"He does not regard perception as self or self as possessing perception or perection as in self or self as in perception.............there do not arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair">> This indicates that perception will arise to a person who is enlighted. By joining the two paragrah, a preception itself is not the cause of suffering, the associated roots is the caused. Ken O 41584 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas'- Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Dear Nina (& Phil), When I spoke to K.Sujin at the weekend about arrangements, I also asked her about yoniso/ayoniso manasikara as the line was unusually clear and she was free!. (Pls note, I was making notes while discussing, so it's a summary of the notes put together below only). We’ve had several discussions and I think our understanding is a little different on this point(but still, I wouldn’t like to say I’m sure of anything!!). --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Manasikaara cetasika arises with each citta, kusala, akusala, or > indeterminate. The word wise attention is not used for this cetasika, > but, > as we shall see, wise attention refers to citta, the mind-door adverting > consciousness which is then followed by kusala cittas. > There are three manasikaaras, two are cittas, one is cetasika. Also the > Tiika of the Vis. deals with these. … S: We agree about the three manasikaaras in the texts and as we discussed in India. My question to K.Sujin was whether *yoniso/ayoniso* manasikara (wise/unwise attention) referred to: a) manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) preceding kusala/akusala cittas b) the cetasika, manasikara in the javana process c) a combination of cittas and cetasikas. ... KS: ‘when kusala citta has arisen, yoniso manaskikara must accompany it (also for ayoniso). If it’s ‘yoniso’ it has to be kusala.' ... S: So we cannot say it’s the manodvaravajjana citta? ... KS: ‘We can say its ‘yoniso’ when it’s the same mano dvara (mind door)series including the preceding manodvaravajjana citta, but yoniso must be kusala manasikara accompanying the citta.’ ... She then stressed the simile about the foolish attendant who doesn’t know anything about the greatness of the king, referring to the manodvaravajjana citta. Its function, she said, is just to precede the javanas which arise by pakatupanaissaya (natural decisive support condition). In other words, as I understand, the kusala and akusala states including yoniso and ayoniso manasikara, arise because of accumulations, not because of this one citta which precedes it. ... KS: ‘That’s all. Yoniso must refer to kusala. Manodvaravajjana citta doesn’t know anything about kusala or akusala. It’s ahetuka citta, quite different from kusala. It’s just one citta, not accompanied by any wholesome cetasikas. It’s just a condition indirectly for yoniso or ayoniso. So it can be called yoniso condition, but the main condition is pakatupanissaya.’ ... S: So yoniso and ayoniso manasikara must refer to the cetasika?’ ... KS: ‘That’s what I understand. But when there’s awareness, we cannot pinpoint cittas and cetasikas.’ ... This was what she also said about manodvaravajjana citta and votthapana citta (determining consciousness) before in Kaeng Krajan, as I recall, when we raised Rob M’s points on this too. Also,it’s the same as in the comment you repeated before from mp3 where she says: “Kusala citta itself is yoniso, aksuala ayoniso” (S: i.e yoniso and ayoniso refer to manasikara arising with kusala and akusala citta, not manodvaravajjana citta). “Each citta is anantara paccaya for the next one, it is fast. Kusala and akusala citta arise because of natural dependence condition.” (S: i.e they follow manodvaravajjana citta as Archarn Sompon said, but no need to stress this as it’s not the main cause for wise/unwise attention. It is the 'way-paver' (as you mentioned from Vis X1V, 152) or javana pa.tipaada’ in terms of preceding them only). I hope this helps. I can raise anything further in Bkk or we can together in India if we all make it there. Metta, Sarah ======== 41585 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah: Ven. Nanananda and Nibbana Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > I accidentally deleted the comments or references you posted regarding > the > topic Cosmique and I were discussing. If not too much trouble, would > you please > send again. Thanks. ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41551 This should work. Metta, Sarah ======= 41586 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil Hi Rob > it is simply describing the characteristics of miccha samadhi, wrong > concentration. > One can concentrate on the breath, for instance, and eventually feel > very tranquil with strong concentration- but have developed only > Miccha Samadhi associated with subtle lobha. > That is one reason why objects such a death (maranasati) are > recommended:?@meditation on breath is subtle and can easily be done > with attachment, whereas the object of death is not so refined and > does not encourage attachment (although of course it can). > ----------------------------------------------- Does death as a meditation object refer to contemplations on corpses etc or does it have to do with death as a release of the khandas. When we die the conditioned factors that we have clung to with such desperation through that lifetime vanish. What was Phil is no longer, just like that. Is it that kind of thing, or is it more concrete, reflecting on the worm-food left behind? > phil: When the > concentration > > is removed, the defilements will spring back up with the same > force > > they had before (when conditions are there) and perhaps even > > fortified because there is added ignorance. > =============== > here you are talking about genuine right concentartion at the level > of samatha, which does supress defilements. BUT the dhammasangani is > talking about pure lobha, desire. The defilements are not supressed, > they are being increased during miccha samadhi. Today I was walking in the park and without intending to fell into a kind of walking meditation (at normal speed) that I developed a couple of years ago when I was reading a lot of Thich Nhat Hahn. It happens a lot when I walk in the park, walking along with awareness on the breath. It's not something I would intentionally do now, but when it happens I stay with it. And I must admit that while I am doing it, I am a very harmless fellow. Hostile thoughts, lustful thoughts are supressed. I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with insight, but it does make me more harmless to others while I'm doing it. I remember when we talked at the airport you referred to the sutta about the tree, about how some people are satisfied to go away with a handful of branches, and other's get the bark, and the wood, and a few get right to the pith. I have been seeing lately very clearly that I might be a handful of branches kind of person. Walking in Tokyo, I saw a graffit that read "check ur motivations" and it made me think about how shallow my Dhamma motications are. Do I really want to be liberated from samsara, or is my interest in Dhamma just aimed at trying to make this lifetime more pleasant, at gaining a little bit of peace of mind in this one lifetime? Practices like the one described above do make life more pleasant, and do condition a reduction in the crudest manifestations of lust and hatred, but they don't lead towards the pith, I know that. Thus I am very grateful to have come across teachings that are much subtler and call for more patience and a release of expectations re results in this one lifetime. Just a ramble there, Rob. No need to respond. Thanks again for your feedback. Metta, Phil 41587 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? Hi TG. Thanks for the feedback. > I've been curious about this passage from an Ayya Khema Dhamma > talk: "All happenings act as triggers for us - but there are only two > reactions - equanimity and craving." > > I also seem to remember learning that there is no dosa that is > not preceded by lobha, or words to that effect. (snip) > > Is dosa always at least partially conditioned by lobha that > precedes it? > TG > There are three types of craving that arise due to three types of feeling... > 1) Craving for sensual pleasure ... which arises during > neither-pleasurable-nor-unpleasureable feeling > 2) Craving for continuance ... which arises during pleasurable feeling. > 3) Craving for dis-continuance ... which arises during unpleasant feeling. > > Craving has three aspects, the last one listed being aversion. No need to > think of lobha as somehow "jumping in front." > This threefold craving is not the same as the threefold craving for sensual pleasures, becoming and annihilation, right? Is there any parallel between them? (I've never really understood what the craving for annihilation means.) But we know that at the time of aversion, there are cittas rooted in moha and dosa, right? There isn't lobha at that time. So again I'm thinking chronoligically and getting confused. Are there also cittas with all three roots? You're saying that "craving for discontinuance" *is* aversion, right? Again, that confuses me, because aversion is dosa and craving is lobha. (or is craving tanha, which is different from lobha?) Do lobha and dosa arise together in the case of 3) above. That's not possible, is it? Sorry for the jumble of questions. I really should look at these kind of things in the morning. Sleepy now. Metta, Phil 41588 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. - KH: > How would you have responded had you been one of the merchants > mentioned in the suttas (I think I can find the exact sutta if you > want): They asked the Buddha how they should live their lives, and > his answer was, ""As to the teaching of the Tathagata, profound, > deep in meaning, concerned with anatta . . ., from time to time we > shall spend our days learning it." That is how you should live your > lives T: This sutta deserves a careful study, Ken. If you can give the title and reference (e.g. MN, AN, or whatever, with the number) then I would be thankful. My opinion based on the above quote is that merchants those days traveled a lot and did not have time (or strong saddha) to practice earnestly. Therefore, they only had to slowly and occasionally chew the Teachings (that are profound/deep in meaning/concerned with anatta) and be contented at that level of study. Thank you for your friendly and constructive attitude, partner. Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > KH: > > > I think "There are only dhammas" is the knowledge we need to > > > acquire. It is acquired through years - and lifetimes - of > > > association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, wisely > > > considering the true Dhamma and applying what we have learnt > > > to the present moment. It might be a long time, but so what? > > > Let's enjoy it! :-) > > > Tep: > But it sounds like a plan to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a > rowboat. > > > > Good luck! > ------------- > > That is hardly the enthusiastic response I was hoping for. :-) ." > > > Ken H 41589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >Hi Jon > > >... >As far as the 7 Abhidhamma texts are concerned, I don't have any problem with >them that I can remember. Haven't read them all the way cover to cover other >than the Vibhanga. > I'm very impressed, TG. And I can tell from your posts of late that you've given a lot of thought to things. >I am a hard core D.O. person. Everything that arises in bound to >conditions. I don't believe something can arise that is non-existent. > That's just it. Names and meanings are mind-created and do not arise. As you read this message to yourself, what is arising, following the seeing and visible object, is thinking consciousness only. This thinking consciousness is able to 'decipher' letters from the visible data then words and then meaning, but none of those thoughts actually arise in the sense of have any existence separate from the moment of thinking consciousness of which they are the object. > I don't >even believe in conventional or absolute truths. Its true or it >isn't...period. > > An absolute truth, as the name implies, is one that holds good for all time, all occasions and all beings. / /I think you'll find that conventional truths do not meet this test. The other distinguishing factor is that an understanding of conventional truths does not lead to escape from samsara -- only an understanding of absolute truths can do that. >The things we have learned in the past, are memories that are "tapped into" >when the appropriate conditions arise. The mountain doesn't "just appear" when >someone skies on it...its a "potential ski slope" Memories are "potential >concepts" when the conditions arise that activate them. As such conditions >arise, the memories are slightly altered according to the new impacting >conditions. Just like the mountain will be slightly altered due to the contact of the skier. > > I am not disagreeing with the idea that 'memories' are constantly changing. But I'm sorry I don't see the connection between that and the question of whether ideas do or do not arise separately from the moment of consciousness of which they are the object. Jon 41590 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: for James Hi Connie (and Ken O., Htoo) - This commentary summary is very concise and should be read over several times so that confusions concerning the true meanings of the Path factors will be put to rest. Thank you very much for this contribution. Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary summary > ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 > "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view > (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the > Four Noble Truths. Right intention (sammasmakappa) is the cetasika of > initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, > and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three > abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. Right > mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. Right > concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta > system." 41591 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Deliberate practice' (was, Is there seeing now?) Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: >L: Maybe we could say the cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa in >that it is a group of rupas arranged by present intention. However, in >some mysterious way this cup of tea fulfills kamma initiated by previous >intention and there will possibly be a subsequent fulfillment of the >kamma involved in the intentional production of the cup of tea. > > These are 2 different kinds of fuflillment -- the second one is a purely conventional idea of fulfilment, nothing to do with vipaka as result of kamma. But there is no guarantee of (conventional) fulfilment of the original intention. The cup of tea may not taste pleasant like it should, or we may get burnt by it, or it may spill, or whatever. >See CMA p.172: "Whether on a given occasion one experiences an >undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is >governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the >opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of >consciousness (vipaakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the >nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a >facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face." > > As this passage clearly states, the nature of the experience in relation to the cup of tea will be governed by one's past kamma (i.e., not by one's intention at the time of making the cup of tea). >If we don't say a cup of tea is consciousness produced rupa then is >there no intention responsible for producing it? > >I have a feeling I am missing some abhidhamma regarding the mechanics of >intentional action. Do you know anything about this? > > Sure, intentional action plays a (conventional) role, but may not there be other conditioning forces at work that perhaps are not readily apparent to us in our present state of undeveloped understanding? Jon 41592 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Dear Sarah, I think we are missing something. That is you missed something or I missed something. Because my replies seem to be related to tadarammana cittas and you said you are not talking tadarammana cittas. I also quoted what I referred without any translation because I believed you already know all these. Please see the discussions below. Apology for my delay. Time did not allow me at that time to respond straight away. As usual I snip away some. So the followings are just main points. You wrote: Dear Htoo, Sorry for delays as usual. I've snipped your points where there's no controversy and we're in agreement (just leavin a little for context). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: ...and when it is not kamma patha (even partial factors), I understand they are conditioning later akusala cittas and cetasikas by pakatupanissaya (natural decisive support condition), not kamma condition. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Sahajaataa cetanaa sahajaataanam naamaruupaanam, naanaakkhanikaa cetana kammaabhinibbattaanam naamaruupaanam kamma vasena,...' Cetana in each and every citta (89 cittas) supports or conditions those 89 cittas, and their associated 51 cetasikas after excluding cetana cetasika, and cittaja ruupa or consciousness-derived materials, patisandhe kammaja ruupa or rebirth-kamma-derived materials. This is sahajata kamma paccaya or 'conascence-kamma condition'. Those 19 kusala cetasikas and 14 akusala cetasikas in those particular past condition 'kammaja vipaka chattimsa[36]' and namakkhandha, patisandhi kammaja ruupa and pavatti kammaja ruupa with the condition called 'naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya'. I know pakati-upanissaya paccaya or 'natural decisive support condition'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah agreed: >Pakati-upanissaya paccaya or pakatu-panissaya paccaya or natural >decisive support condition has a wide range of conditions. Among them there include raga or lust, dosa or hatred, moha or ignorance, maana or conceit, ditthi or wrong-view, pattana or expectation are some part of natural decisive support condition. ... S: Yes, exactly. ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You agree this because this is the largest condition. Patthana dhamma is a wide subject. 24 conditions are just a summary of the conditions. Actually there are 24 different patthana texts and these 24 texts are not of each condition but their separate texts and description. Again when these 24 summary paccayas or conditions are further summarised there left only 4 paccayas or 4 conditions. 'Aarammanupanissaya kammatthi paccayesu ca sabbepi paccayaa samodhaanam gacchanti'. Aarammana, upanissaya, kamma, atthi paccayas are the most concise summary of all these conditions. You may notice that even among these 4 concise summary of conditions there are upanissaya and kamma. So it is not unusual that kamma and upanissaya are mixed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's old post as quoted by Sarah: >The difference is that kamma paccaya is related to akusala and kusala dhamma when it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. >If cetana cetasika arise along with kiriya cittas then those 19 cetasikas (sobhasaadhaarana cetasikas) do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya because it is kiriya and not akusala or kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We're not discussing kiriya cittas here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I already know that you are not discussing kiriya cittas. But I had to include them because those 19 cetasikas which are abyakata dhamma do not serve as naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya but they serve as upanissaya paccaya as you mentioned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: With regard to the accumulation of kusala and akusala, how do you differentiate between these two conditions if you say none of the kamma patha factors need be present for naanaakkhanika-kamma-paccaya (asychronous kamma condition) to operate? …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As long as dhamma are not abyakata they will be kusala or akusala. If akusala or kusala why should they not have naanaakkhanika kamma condition or 'asynchronous kamma condition'. If I were thinking with hatred to destroy something or someone repeatedly in my mind, should these thought be freed from kamma condition. I was not killing anyone but was thinking killing someone. I even did not say a word for killing but still thinking to kill. Should those thoughts be freed from verdict of kamma paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: > .When you are > > just thinking with kusala or akusala then it is not kiriya and it > > does have kamma effect and it is naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya. It > > does not need to be kamma patha to be repeated. …. S: To be repeated or accumulated, it doesn't need kamma patha, but I don't -- accidental snip-- by pakatupanissaya and other conditions, I believe. As I asked before, otherwise, why differentiate between kilesa vatta (round of defilements) and kamma vatta (round of kamma)? …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. There are 3 rounds or 3 vattas. Kilesa vatta or 'round of defilements', kamma vatta or 'round of kamma' and vipaka vatta or 'round of vipaka'. There have to be 3 separate rounds because they rotate and operate on their axle. Arahats stop kilesa vatta and kamma vatta. But they cannot stop vipaka vatta and this happen till cuti citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To dig up again about karuna of The Buddha: > > S: You were referring to the Buddha's karuna after his parinibbana. > > I'm curious to read this thread! ... > Htoo: > No. I was just refering to the effect. Karuna just lasts a moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I'd have to think about this. So you're saying that when the Buddha's feet `came out' after his parinibbana, it was by the effect of his previous karuna, not the effect of Maha Kassapa's cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hard to say thing. Maha Kassapa did have such power. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Maybe a combination – this was only for Maha Kassapa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a special point. And I do not know. I have to agree with your statement of 'maybe a combination'. In Myanmar I heard a story that there were 3 brothers. One was Gotama Buddha-to-be, another is Maha Kassapa-to-be, and the third was Arimmetteyya Buddha-to-be. Their connections made Gotama Buddha exchanged 'His Pansuku Civara' or 'random robe' with Pippali's robe, which represented that Kassapa would be the representative of The Buddha Gotama. Even though there did Mahaparinibbana touching of the feet to the forehead of Kassapa seemed farewell to Kassapa. Again because of akusala, the corpse of Maha Kassapa could not be cremated and it has been still there as a corpse there somewhere onn this earth and the corpse will live Kappas long. Kassapa-to-be once arranged a playing ceremony of funeral to a dead animal and he had not finished the ceremony because he forgot to continue. For this even his corpse, which is the house of an arahat, could not be cremated by anyone and by any mean with a single only exception. The exception is that the Future Buddha, The Buddha Arimmetteyya, who was once the youngest of three brothers will arise and the corpse will be burnt on the palm of The Furture Buddha Arimmetteyya. These are hard to believe and difficult to prove and many will say this might be just a make-up story. But I did not make up anything. As once I said I just draw out from my old memories which were essentially impregnated by learned monks and Elderly. So 'coming out of feet' matter may well be Kassapa's power or The Buddha Gotama's predetermined power or both or others and I do not have any idea which was working at that time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: This is what it says in the comy to the Parinibbana Sutta (just before the funeral pyre caught fire by itself), ` "Then the Venerable Mahaakassapa went to Kusinaaraa …he saluted with his head": the elder, they say, having circumambulated the pyre, noticed on careful observation: "Here are the feet. " Then, standing near the feet, he attained the fourth jhana which is the basis of intuitive knowledge(abhi~n~naa-paada) and emerged from it. Then he determined, "Let the feet of the One of the TenPowers, decorated with the mark of a wheel with a thousand spokes, split in two the hundered pairs of cloth with layers of cotton, and the golden vessel, and the pyre of sandalwood, and be placed on my head." At his resolve, the feet emerged splitting in two those pairs of cloths and the other things, like the full moon coming out from amidst the clouds. The elder stretched out his hands like blossoming red lotuses wide, and tightly grasped the gold-coloured feet of the Teacher as far as the ankles, and put them on his noble head. So it is said, "uncovering his feet, he worshipped the feet of the Blessed One with his head".' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah. This is the exact copy of what I read and heard many years ago. The only difference is that here you quoted in 'English'. I read in Myanmar, Pali and now in English. Essentially all versions are the same with little difference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- …. > > 2 teams of forces that support the king citta. Obviously saddha is > > like a leader and I appointed him as a commander (army and navy) and Dhamma. … S: I appreciate all these helpful efforts of yours. Please don't be concerned about mistakes with English and so on. Even we native speakers make them;-). Conveying the true Dhamma and discussing it as we are doing is what counts . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. Yes, of course. No one is perfect. You already showed me that as a native speaker you wrote below 'expaining all the terms'. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Metta, Sarah p.s As I said, I thought the sahajata paccaya discussion was v.useful. I particularly liked the first page of your intro, expaining all the terms. One detail I'm not sure of here: > > Htoo: "Cakkhu pasada rupa also serves as vatthu or ground for related > cittas and cetasikas. Throughout the process there are 14 vithi cittas." S: Surely, cakkhu pasada rupa is the vatthu or ground only for cakkhu vinnana citta (seeing consciousness), even though it's the door for the whole process? ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here is the wording problem. I used 'related cittas and cetasikas'. This means all cakkhu-vinnana cittas and their associated cetasikas that is 7 universal cetasikas in each of them. I also feel a bit unusual that while all other cittas have to house on hadaya vatthu these 10 panca-vinnana cittas have to house on panca-vatthus only. So in process-free and processing cittas series like below there are many cittas basing on hadaya but they stop homing on hadaya when panca-vinnana cittas arise. BBBBBB...BBBTCUPGSRVJJJJJJJDDB...BBBB B = bhavanga citta T = aTita-bhavanga citta C = bhavanga Calana citta U = bhavanga-Upaccheda citta P = Panca-dvara-avajjana citta G = Ghana-vinnana citta ( instead of Cakkhu-vinnana to avoid overlap) S = Sampaticchana citta R = santiRana citta V = Votthapana citta J = Javana citta D = taDarammana citta There is a gap in the whole flow of citta. That gap is panca-vinnana cittas who do not house on hadaya vatthu. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41593 From: Larry Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > In the sutta reference to contact being like small creatures nibbling on > the flesh of a hideless cow (SNII,12), it is interesting to compare this > to consciousness being like a man being pierced by 300 arrows, in the > same sutta. This suggests to me that contact is preliminary or subtle > consciousness and consciousness is full blown consciousness. Does > contact only apply to consciousness and feeling or does it apply to all > the cetasikas that arise? > > Larry > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-063.html Hi Nina, One of the reasons I made this association is because in a mind-door process the object isn't present, even if the object is a memory. How does contact function in a mind-door process? Larry 41594 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > The 4th sutta was the main one you were questioning me about, I >believe. I had posted that one mainly because it speaks of "prescribing", and not >just "describing". But as regards conventional actions, look at the quote "Three >things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, >service to one's parents." These are three conventional actions, and obviously >so. > > I'd like to suggest that, with the knowledge of the teachings we have gained through study, we can say that what is being referred to here are 3 kinds of kusala. Take the first one, giving (dana). Dana may be performed through body, speech or even mind. Of course, every instance of dana through body or speech will have a name by which it can be described, and to that extent could be considered to be a conventional action of one kind or another, but the factor common to all instances of dana will be moments of kusala consciousness accompanied by certain mental factors. So what is recommended by the wise is the development of kusala of the kind that is dana (and the same for the other 2, going forth and service to one's parents). Jon 41595 From: Larry Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Larry > > Sorry for being too crytic at times because sometimes I just do not > have inspiration to write better, like a writer block ;-) > > I have find an extract from a sutta, SN III, Khandhasamyutta, > Nakulapita > > < perception as in self, or self as in perception. He live obsessed by > the notions: 'I am perception, perception is mine.' As he lieves > obsessed by these notions, that perceptions of his changes and > alters. With the change and alteration of perception, there arise in > him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair.>> > > My notes: In this sutta, Buddha states that when perceptions > associated with me, mine and myself. There arise suffering. In this > way we can see that perceptions associated with the three roots are > the cause of suffering. > > Then later in the same sutta, the Buddha said that <<"He does not > regard perception as self or self as possessing perception or > perection as in self or self as in perception.............there do > not arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and > despair">> > > This indicates that perception will arise to a person who is > enlighted. By joining the two paragrah, a preception itself is not > the cause of suffering, the associated roots is the caused. > > Ken O Hi Ken, I follow your reasoning and agree with most of it, but I don't think this sutta is talking about sanna vipallasa. Rather, it is talking about identifying with sanna. This is a different, but related issue. As I see it the question is, is there misperception in a kusala citta process that arises without panna. I would say there is, but I agree that it does make sense to say sanna vipallasa only arises in an akusala process. Larry 41596 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Dear Tep, op 30-01-2005 20:53 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: The Nyanatiloka's definition of the five > balas is that they are 'powers' of the 5 spirtual faculties (Indriya) by the > fact "that they are unshakable by their opposites" and they > represent "the aspect of firmness in the spiritual faculties". I am not > sure what unskable and firmness mean in the practical sense. N: the indriyas have been developed more, so that they have gained in strength. T: Nyanatiloka added, "According to A.V.15, the power becomes > manifest in the 4 qualities of the Stream-winner, in the 4 right efforts, in > the 4 foundations of mindfulness, in the 4 absorptions, (and) in the (full > comprehension of the) 4 Noble Truths". > > So, Nina, how does the power become manifest in the four foundations > of mindfulness, and especially in the "satipatthana", according to the > three meanings you have explained to me earlier? N: The indriyas and powers develop together. Many terms are used here, and they are useful to a certain extent, but we should not get lost in terms. We can verify the dhamma by being mindful of the characteristics of realities that appear one at a time, not by thinking of names. The 4 foundations of mindfulness as objects of sati and paññaa are nothing else but nama and rupa appearing one at a time through the six doors. As I see it, there is no need to think : is this mindfulness of body, that mindfulness of feeling. The question is: what characteristic appears now. The satipatthanasutta reminds us that whatever we are doing, whatever posture we assume, wherever we are, there are only nama elements and rupa elements and these can be object of awareness. We may be distracted and heedless, but this sutta brings us back to reality. I heard this morning:< When we are touching something it seems that hardness was there all the time, but when it appears it has just before arisen and it falls away. Also the rupa that is body-door at that moment: it seems that it is there all the time, but it has just arisen. > We never know what the next moment will bring. It is useful to remember this in daily life when we experience praise or blame. Who knows what vipaaka is next? Evenso with regard to the object of sati: we never know the next moment. The elements have no time to arrange for anything, they are merely conditioned, they have no owner. They arise because of a concurrence of conditions. In this way we come to know the meaning of anatta. I did not answer your Q how the powers become manifest in satipatthana. When there is unshakable confidence that this is the right way: mindfulness and understanding of whatever appears now. When there is firm understanding of what the right Path is. Nina. 41597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Dear Joop, Kel answered and I shall also add something. op 30-01-2005 12:33 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after tens > or hundreds or billions of years ? .... Or means 'used up": only > when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results of > it? N: The cittas which perform a deed fall away immediately, but the good or bad intention which motivated the deed is accumulated, and this is actually kamma that is accumulated. We have to remember that life is a continuous stream of cittas, succeeding one another. Generally we think of kamma as a deed, but it is mental, it is intention or volition. Kamma that is accumulated can produce result much later. U Narada in Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 52, 53) explains: He explains that it is present like the latent tendencies. He says: He then gives some similes. A person borrows money and he has the responsibility to repay the loan. Evenso, Does this answer your question? Nina. 41598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Understanding, Right View, and Full Understanding Dear Tep, Again, I think we should not get lost in terms. There are so many synonyms for pañña. Pañña may be intelletual understanding, or insight that is developing, or direct realization of the truth. I can give other terms, like abhisamaya, realization. I will not analyse here all these terms. But I have not seen Sammaa-ñaa.na or sammaa-paññaa you mentioned. I have seen ñaa.na dassana. But it does not matter. I shall elaborate somewhat on pariñña. Kh Sujin gave a useful explanation. Insight is developed in stages, and each stage is like the passing of an examination. In between you have to review what you learnt so that you can pass the next stage. So are the pariññas. They are like the reviewing of what was realized at the moment a stage of insight was reached. Understanding of the known, of investigation, of abandoning. See Buddhist Dict. These are names, but they denote a development of understanding towards detachment. Nina. op 30-01-2005 21:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...:> > N: .... Panna is of different levels and in different contexts specific > terms are used. (snipped) >.... The term right understanding in the samma-panna sense seems to be > similar to the term "full understanding" (parinna). 41599 From: Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, jon (and TG) - In a message dated 2/1/05 9:07:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > That's just it. Names and meanings are mind-created and do not arise. > As you read this message to yourself, what is arising, following the > seeing and visible object, is thinking consciousness only. This > thinking consciousness is able to 'decipher' letters from the visible > data then words and then meaning, but none of those thoughts actually > arise in the sense of have any existence separate from the moment of > thinking consciousness of which they are the object. > > ======================== Jon, everything that arises does so only momentary. Moreover, everything that arises does so due to conditions, and mental construction is just a category of condition. On the basis of what you have written, names and meanings seem no less real than anything else! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41600 From: Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/1/05 9:49:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > > The 4th sutta was the main one you were questioning me about, I > >believe. I had posted that one mainly because it speaks of "prescribing", > and not > >just "describing". But as regards conventional actions, look at the quote > "Three > >things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into homelessness, > >service to one's parents." These are three conventional actions, and > obviously > >so. > > > > > > I'd like to suggest that, with the knowledge of the teachings we have > gained through study, we can say that what is being referred to here are > 3 kinds of kusala. Take the first one, giving (dana). Dana may be > performed through body, speech or even mind. Of course, every instance > of dana through body or speech will have a name by which it can be > described, and to that extent could be considered to be a conventional > action of one kind or another, but the factor common to all instances of > dana will be moments of kusala consciousness accompanied by certain > mental factors. So what is recommended by the wise is the development > of kusala of the kind that is dana (and the same for the other 2, going > forth and service to one's parents). > > Jon > ======================= Jon, you must be very physically fit, as you are excellent at (what I see as) difficult contortions! ;-)) With uncontorted metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41601 From: Hugo Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 9:32am Subject: Ajahn Chah on Vipassana and Samatha meditation There have been some discussions about Vipassana and Samatha meditation, if they are completely separate, if they are conjoined, etc. I found something related to this in the book: "Food for the Heart: The collected teachings of Ajahn Chah", I tried to extract the key parts as to keep this message short, hopefully it will be useful for those of us who still cling to the idea of a self who meditates, who trains, who will attain Nibbana, hopefully this will help create the causes that will condition the eradication of the clinging to that self. ============================== Page 181 Meditation is like a single stick of wook. Insight (Vipassana) is one end of the stick and serenity (Samatha) the oher. [...] When anyone picks up a stick both ends rise ogether. [...] Where does one end and the other begin? They are both the mind. [...] .....the peace afforded by samatha meditation alone is still based on attachment. [...] Serenity is not the end of the Path. [...] He (The Buddha) based on that serenity of samatha, he proceeded to contemplate, investigate and analyze the conditioned nature of reality until he was free of all attachments, even the attachment to serenity. ========== Page 144 The ways of wisdom and concentration are not the same. Some people have insight and are strong in wisdom but do not have much samadhi. When they sit in meditation they aren't very peaceful. They tend to think a lot, contemplating this and that, until eventually they contemplate happiness and suffering and see the truth of them. Whether standing, walking, sitting or lying, enlightenment of the Dhamma can take place. They attain peace through seeing, through relinquishing, through knowing the truth and going beyond doubt, because they have seen it for themselves. Other people have only a little wisdom but their samadhi is very strong. They can enter very deep samadhi quickly, but, not having much wisdom, they cannot catch their defilements; they don't know them. They can't solve their problems. [...] These two sides to practice, calm and insight, go together. We can't do away with either of them. -- Hugo 41602 From: Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/1/2005 6:06:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: >I am a hard core D.O. person. Everything that arises in bound to >conditions. I don't believe something can arise that is non-existent. > That's just it. Names and meanings are mind-created and do not arise. As you read this message to yourself, what is arising, following the seeing and visible object, is thinking consciousness only. This thinking consciousness is able to 'decipher' letters from the visible data then words and then meaning, but none of those thoughts actually arise in the sense of have any existence separate from the moment of thinking consciousness of which they are the object. Hi Jon From the above... Analysis of Sentence One: Names and meanings are not merely mind created. Names and meanings have been learned and conditioned through contacts of all the sense bases. When we go to school, we use eyes and eye objects, and ears and ear objects to learn things from teachers. Those contacts condition the mind and become objects for the mind. The mind does not "create names and meanings." Names and meanings (thoughts) are conditioned by "external and internal" conditions. The other senses are all used to learn things as well of course. Analysis of Sentence Two: As I read your message (the reading a conditioned skill/memory), light from the monitor is making contact with patterns that have been learned and are recognizable (words). This conditions a variety of memories that follow in sequence to the words you typed. These memories follow my experiences, not yours. So what you say has to be interpreted based on my experience. If I haven't had the same general experiences as you have, I won't be able to follow what you are saying. I.E., the meaning won't arise because it won't have a condition that can support it. (Unless I can be "led" to understand it based on "my experiences.") The thoughts are not just "being created," they are being conditioned by so many things. Analysis of Sentence Three: I basically agree with your last sentence except for the line about "separate existence." Nothing conditioned has "separate existence" so the arguement is doesn't work. (If you were to say that names and meanings did have separate existence, then I'd be worried that I was wrong.) ;-) A thought that has arisen in the mind, in the present, is indeed accompanied by consciousness...as well as a slew of mental factors...that take the thought as an object. This doesn't make the thought any less actual, it makes it fully actual. The thought has been conditioned by all the past learnings we have had. Not to mention the evolution of knowledge, the planet Earth (as a foundation that can support life), the sun, the galaxy, the universe. Thoughts are just thoughts. They're not supposed to be anything else. They are just as conditioned as anything other conditioned thing. TG 41603 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 10:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. This is my second reply as the one I have already type was lost. You wrote: Dear Htoo, Again I've snipped your interesting and helpful comments which we have no disagreement about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 'Ati-itthe pana somanassa saha gataa neva santirana tadaarammanaani' …. Sarah wrote: S: If I understand, you are quoting the text which indicates that if an undesirable object is experienced, it is akusala vipaka and vice versa.(translations in future, please, otherwise we'll get complaints!!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. I will. I did because I expect you know it and I just showed as an evidence. That is why I untouched the whole. At another site people are saying inderectly regarding usage of Pali. Some even said that The Buddha did not use Pali. I know. The Buddha spoke Magadha. All Buddha teachings were handed down only by oral citation until 4th Buddhists Council. Actually oral citations are much much more accurate than written equivalent. Because written scripts need voicing and timing of voicing. This is the main reason why the 5th and the 6th Buddhists Councils were done in Myanmar. Whether The Buddha spoke Pali or not the 4th Buddhists Council recorded the teachings in Sanskript, Pali, Sinhalese. The reason why I stick to Pali is to lessen variations. Examples here. Dukkha. This topic is very very important. Because when someone does not see this there is no way for him searching for liberation. This dukkha is translated as 1. stress 2. suffering Even though it is possible to use all-English for Buddha's Teachings, I think it is better to use Pali words for essential dhammas. Otherwise there will be growing variation and this variation will finally lose all senses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Of course, there's no disagreement on this. My point was that we can say in general that when we see rotten flesh or hear about a disaster, that's it's akusala vipaka, but this is just speaking conventionally. In reality, it depends at that very instant whether there are conditions for kusala or akusala vipaka to arise and experience a desirable or undesirable object. When we hear about a disaster, for example, only sound is experienced. It may be a pleasant sound when a news broadcaster speaks gently. The unpleasantness may just be in the subsequent thinking with dosa. …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is different. The smell of dead body are dhamma. It is foul smelling. It is disagreeable smell. It is anittha-arammana or disagreeable object. The sound heard as sweet voice of news announcer is not like smell of rotten flesh. The idea of disaster actually come after several vithi vara called tadanuvattaka vithi varas that follow the initial panca-dvara vithi vara. I do not translate these any more as I repeatedly written them in the old posts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: If I follow you (with trouble), you've missed my point here. We're not talking about tadarammana cittas. … ….. … S: No problem, but we were talking about the javana cittas, not the tadarammana cittas as I understood. …. S: Yes, but again we were talking about the javana cittas. … ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. But there must have been missing something. You missed or I missed or both missed the point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, akusala cittas following the kusala vipaka. This was my point. No disagreement, here, perhaps a misunderstanding. …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Samanantara paccaya : contiguity condition 1. abyakata dhamma + akusala dhamma 2. abyakata dhamma + kusala dhamma 3. abyakata dhamma + abyakata dhamma Here + means immediately followed by. There is no interval or space or gap. It is samanantara. Sam + anantara Sam means 'very well' 'without ever breaking rules' 'rightly' Again 'anantara' is made up of 'ana' and 'antara'. Ana means 'no' 'nothing' 'no one' 'none' 'not one'. Antara means 'gap' 'interval' 'space'. So there is no space, no gap, no interval between abyakata dhamma and akusala/kusala/abyakata dhamma. So anittha-arammana or 'non-agreeable object' conditions arising of different dhamma. First abyakata dhamma. It is kiriya dhamma called avajjana citta. I did not argue your javana. If you can read Pali you will see that all vipaka will be akusala vipaka if it is non-agreeable object'. This also comprises tadarammana cittas which you agreed. Again panca- vinnana citta,sampaticchana, and santirana cittas are all akusala vipaka in non-agreeable object. I did not say javana citta. Whether it is kusala or akusala or abyakata, after javana the following tadarammana cittas are all akusala vipaka cittas. What I said about javana citta is in normal conditions agreeable object or ati-itthia-arammana is unusally apperceived by kusala javana citta or abyakata javana citta. In that case tadarammana are kusala vipaka. If javana are somanassa then tadarammana will more likely to be somanassa cittas. When somanassa citta it is not akusala vipaka citta. --------------------------------------------------------------------- … S: But I wasn't talking about tadaarammana cittas!! …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. If it is anittharammana or non-agreeable object vipaka cittas will all be akusala vipaka cittas in respective of accumulation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- … S: No disagreement on any of this or on anything to do with tadaarammana cittas;-). I had no trouble with what you wrote about them from the outset. …. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far we have a clear understanding and no dispute on anittharammana or non-agreeable object. Actually I was talking on anittharammana or non-agreeable object. A-nit-tha-ram-ma-na is 6-syllable-word like 'coun-ter-pro-duc-ti-vi- ty'. By choosing anittharammana we can avoid risks of non-agreeable object. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** S:> Why is concentration on a 'whole circle' kusala in any way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Because there is sati, saddha, and other components of kusala dhamma > including panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- … S: So it is the cittas and accompanying mental factors that are kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. No. No. Citta and cetasikas cannot be separated out. When it is said kusala that means 'cetana' and the whole citta. There are 1. kusala cetana 2. akusala cetana 3. abyakata cetana When concentrating on kasina object that state of concentraing mind is kusala dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah asked: Please explain why they are kusala just by concentrating on a `whole circle'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not just concentrating. There involve many energy, effort, and activities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: If we concentrate on a `whole circle' now, would it be kusala? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. :-)) Because you just said 'if we concentrate on a 'whole circle' now'..' If you asked 'If you concentrated on a whole circle, would it be kusala', the answer is yes. :-) Because I know 'this is good' and 'this is bad'. In initiation when a thought of bad quality arises it is remembered as bad thought and another citta arises and it direct to the wholeness again. The director is vitakka. He is very powerful. If you tried to sit in a cross-legged position (:- I believe you will not), you will find flows of thought. They may or may not be racing. The ocean receives rivers. There are red-flow, white-flow, yellow- flow, green-flow, blue-flow, brown-flow, grey-flow, black-flow, and radiant-flow. If you sat you would see them. Brown-flow is switched to green-flow and then to yellow-flow. This is done by vitakka or initial application. He (vitakka) will not know nothing. But he is to do application to an object. So when concentrating this means this is reverse of diluting. You know dilution. When there is 100 % water. It is water and not a solution. When you add a tiny amount of salt, then it becomes a solution. But it is a dilute solution. When there is 100 % bhavanga citta it is bhavanga flow and nothing happen apart from living as bhavanga cittas who are taking their own object. But as soon as you add a tiny amount of vithi cittas-salt then it becomes a solution. When you are awake and alert and taking current object there also are mixing of bhavanag cittas even though there are vithi cittas. If these vithi varas become kusala dhamma then the solution becomes kusala solution. There are dana-kusala, sila-kusala and bhavana- kusala. If you choose bhavana-kusala there have to arise bhavana-kusala cittas. If you choose kasina for example 'white circle' then the mind will take the idea of white. As initiation you will not be all the time on 'the idea of white'. But there are different thoughts. Again in this bhavana solution there is dilute-citta-on-the-idea-of-white because you are thinking 'what you will do tomorrow' 'what you will reply Htoo' 'what you will cook for the whole family' and endless thought. At first you see that 'O! Buddho! My thoughts are no more on the idea of white and I have been drifted away of tomorrow matters. Then you will be again onn the idea of white. At a time, you will be most of the time 'on the idea of white'. This is because you understand that the thought of tomorrow etc etc called hindrances are not good and then you re-direct to 'the idea of white'. This is wisdom. But it does not cast any light on 'anicca, dukkha, anatta' which is unique to 'Buddhism'. Once you and I argued on jhana matters. You said that jhanas were taught by The Buddha or something like that and you seemed to mean it is totally impossible to attain any jhanas without studying jhanas in Buddhism. At that time, I said there are 2 teachers who attained 3rd and 4th arupa jhana respectively and they did not know any anicca, dukkha, anatta and they were not taught by The Buddha but they taught The Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama. So in summary it is kusala to concentrate on kasina object. When you say 'white circle' it becomes non-sense but if you say it is odata-kasina-arammana then it is kusala citta that take that object. Why? Because to direct to that object mind knows bad and good things and this is wisdom or panna. This does not necessarily mean there is 'knowledge of anicca, dukkha, anatta' which is unique to Buddha and Buddhism. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: In other words, there has to be understanding of how the object of samatha conditions calm, otherwise the wholesome cittas can never be developed in this way. … ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please above long-winded message of me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- … S: OK, all agreed, but you haven't said anything about the significance of the `whole circle' or white kasina as an object of samatha here. … ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because it should be another thread and entitled to separate discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: **** All your details on the jhana and lokuttara processes are very clear and detailed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your kind words. I have Myanmar friends who have reached advanced meditative stage. But they cannot talk much on the subject. When you say 'my details on the jhana and lokuttara processes are very clear and detailed' I feel calm because this transferring of 'knowledge' is my main and chief aim here in different Yahoo Groups. It is not my aim to do self- promotion. Jhana and lokuttara dhammas are difficult areas and it is more difficult to express in English becuase these are relatively new as compared to Indian and Asian. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: No quibbles, but I don't understand this: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) I know you are not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 2nd kind > > > > Lokuttara cittas > > > > 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMPUAGMPPBBBBB > > > > 2nd M is magga citta while 1st M is manodvara-avajjana citta. Magga > > citta is immediately followed by 2 phala cittas if the practitioner > > is mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or > > intelligent person then it will be like this > > > > 1st time ---> BBB...BBBMUAGMPPPBBBBB > > > > There are 7 javana cittas in both series. > > > > In the 1st 1.parikamma, 2.upacara, 3.anuloma, 4.gotrabhu, 5.magga, 6. > > phala, 7 2nd phala. > > > > In the 2nd 1.upacara, 2.anuloma, 3. gotrabhu, 4. magga, 5.1st phala, > > 6.2nd phala, 7.3rd phala ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: … S: I'm not familiar with these terms ` mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or intelligent person', but I don't see it as being of any concern for a good long while;-). Just curious about the words `less intelligent' here…. Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I have to explain roughly itn is the matter of intelligence or ability to realise. Example is 1. Someone reads abhidhammatthasangaha text for 2 years and still does not fully understand the whole text. 2. Another person reads the same text in a matter of a few hours and he realises the whole text. This is just a rought example. The first one is mandha. Mandha here works as an 'adjective'. The second one is tikkha. Example persons are 1. Tikkha Puggala The Buddhas are tikkha. When they show miracles they have to do many different kasina kammatthana. Example for creation of 'fountain' apo kasina, vayo kasina etc have to be done. During these times, The Buddha switches from one kasina to another very quickly. As you know even in normal waking hours there are numerous bhavanga cittas. But The Buddha in such time switches from one kasina to another with only 2 bhavanga citta interval. This is major difference between The Buddhas and theirn Savakas or disciples. Even Mahamoggallana could not be as fast as The Buddha. Again when The Buddha does paccavakkhana javana or 'scrutinization' or 'contemplation' on jhana factors there arise only 4 or 5 javana cittas while savakas will have 7 javana cittas. 2. Mandha puggala Here in this world many of us are mandha person. This include very intelligent scientists. That is another point why I use Pali. If geneticians and genetic engineers are thought to be intelligent then many will confuse the term intelligent. They are still not tikkha mostly even though they may be intelligent. By the same token it is wrong to say un-intelligent one as mandha. No one know whom is tikkha and who is mandha. This is The Buddha matter. So you [Sarah] also do not need to know mandha-tikkha matter. But The Buddha preached that there will be 2 phala cittas or 3 phala cittas depending on the state of meditators. If there are 3 phala cittas he or she is tikkha and if there are only 2 phala cittas then he or she is mandha. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41604 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: for James Hi Connie (and Ken O., Htoo) - This commentary summary is very concise and should be read over several times so that confusions concerning the true meanings of the Path factors will be put to rest. Thank you very much for this contribution. Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep (Connie, Ken O and All), This is why suttas should be leanred along with learning of abhidhamma and commentaries. Suttas use conventioanl language. There are times that suttas and abhidhamma should not mix. Example when you offer something to someone you should just offer conventionally. Otherwise??? Nama and dhamma is holding rupa and then nama and rupa is offering rupa to nama and rupa. Do you recognize any sense in above sentence? With Metta, Htoo Naing 41605 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:09am Subject: Kamma and Buddhism Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma is our refuge. Kamma is our father. Kamma is our mother. Kamma give us food, shelter, medicine and everything. Therefore we need to know 1.where is kamma made of? 2.when is kamma made of? 3.why is kamma made of? 4.who makes kamma? 5.what is kamma? [nama, rupa, an energy] 6.how is kamma made of? Answer 1: There are 2 kinds of place. One is conventional place. This will be known and no need to be explained. Again another place which is a bit abhidhammical is at cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, hadaya. These are all 6 rupas and where kamma creators dwell. So where is kamma made of has to be answered as 'at cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, and hadaya vatthu' or conventionally where it is done like 'on the road' 'in the house' 'in the river' 'in the air' 'on top of a mountain' 'in a forest'. Essentially the whole answer is not needed and it is not essential to answer. Answer 2: Again there will be 2 kinds of answers. One is conventioanl like at the time of committing kusala or akusala like 'this morning' 'last year' 'in 1915' 'in July' etc etc. Another is a bit technical. It is when non-abyakata javana cittas arise. [Sarah would not agree this]. As soon as 'ekha hetuka moha mula akusala javana cittas' arise or as soon as 'dvihetuka dosa mulsa akusala javana cittas' arise or as soon as 'dvihetuka lobha mula akusala javana cittas' arise or as soon as 'dvihetuka 4 nana-vippayutta mahakusala cittas' arise or as soon as 'tihetuka 4 nana-sampayutta mahakusala cittas' arise or as soon as '5 rupakusala jhana cittas' arise or as soon as '4 arupakusala arupa jhana cittas' arise. As soon as magga cittas arise their respective phala cittas instantaneously arise without delay of even a moment, which is akalika(giving result without delay) attribute of The Dhamma. 3.why is kamma made of? This need to learn paticca-samuppada dhamma. Kamma is made of because of the power of avijja or ignorance-potential. We are doing kama kusala because we have avijja which again covers the light of Noble Truth of suffering. We are doing rupa kusala (developing rupa jhana) because .. We are doing arupa kusala (developing arupa jhana) because .. We are doing akusala because we have avijja which again covers the light of Noble Truth of suffering. 4. who makes kamma? There are 2 kinds of answer. Conventionally being concerned makes kamma of their own. So these creators are us and no other daities or gods or Gods. Technical answer of abhidhamma will be like 'no one makes kamma' but cetana in citta makes kamma instantaneously. Because citta is just to know the object even though he is the main committer. There are 52 cetasikas which help citta to do the job. Among them cetana is the chief to help citta commits. There are 3 boaters. At the front is vitakka cetasika. At the back or rear is manasikara cetasika. At the middle is cetana cetasika. Vitakka rows the boat. This means vitakka put the mind on an object and mind has to stay on that object. But vitakka does not have any sin doing so. Manasikara steers the boat to get the right direction. Again he is not sinful. In the middle is cetana cetasika. He encourages and urges vitakka to row the boat, manasikara to steer the boat and cetana cetasikas also co-ordinate other associated cetasikas in a citta and it aslo urge the citta to do the things. Here as cetana is co-ordinator and he is performing everything in the army of mind or nama dhamma cetana is the most responsible person for all actions done by each of these cetasikas and citta. So cetana is kamma and kamma is cetana. No one makes kamma but cetana makes kamma. 5. what is kamma? [nama, rupa, an energy] Kamma is 'cetana that arise when actions are performed'. Again it [kama] is unlike cenata cetasika which is an ultimate reality kama is hard to perceive like other 51 cetasikas and also cetana cetasika itself is included. Because it is like a potential and this potential will always be there with each arising new and new citta as long as the debt has not been returned that is as long as the result is given rise to. But as soon as the result (vipaka) arise as the debt is already given there is no more debt and there is no more kamma. In kamma creation there are 7 javana cittas. If these javana cittas are not kiriya javana cittas there arise kamma. Cetana in the 1st javana citta gives rise its effect in the current life and if it cannot there is no more kamma from that cetana after that life. This is because it is so weak to follow to next life. Cetana in 7th javana citta is also weak and it gives rise to its effect in the 2nd life and after that there is no more debt from that cetana of 7th javana citta. Unlike these 2 javana cittas, the middle 5 javana cittas create kamma and this kamma follow each and every citta that arises one after another like wheel-track immediately follow foot-track of cows in a travelling cart. But as soon as arahatta-cuti-citta arises all kamma cannot proceed further and these kamma are known as 'ahosi kamma' or 'ineffectual kamma which have never given rise their effect. 6. how is kamma made of? Kamma is made of in the dictation of kamma niyama. How fast is kamma made of? --->instantaneously May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41606 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Dear Joop (Kel, Nina, and All), Apology for my delay. You wrote: Dear Htoo (and all) In the end of your message you say: "When the old kamma is used up …" That reminds me on a question I've a longer time. So out of the context of your Dhamma Thread 249 I will ask it: All phenomena are conditioned, except Nibbana, the arise and fall away after some time that is different for different kinds of phenomena. But, is my question, how about kamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have replied to you. But as it is a good subject I changed the topic as 'Kamma and Buddhism'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: I have read somewhere that the question "where is kamma made of, is it a nama or a rupa or an energy etc ?" should not be asked (acinteyya: the four unthinkables). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please see the details in 'Kamma and Buddhism'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: But my question is: does kamma fall away after some time, after tens or hundreds or billions of years ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Never. Once it arises it follows each and every citta as if it is the shade of citta. They do not fall away even after Kappas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: I think it does, otherwise animals, living totally akusala, can never be reborn in higher sentient beings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. There are examples that animals are reborn in deva realms after death of animals' life like Kandaka horse of Bodhisatta, Ghosita dog of an upasaka etc. The prince Temiya was reborn in human realms after many many billions of year in hell, before that was a king who had to invlove in akusala things that led him to rebirth in hell and as soon as he was reborn in human realm he did not speak any word for fear of being a king again and involving in akusala actions. But generally once beings get to those 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes they will be there for a long time until their kamma have been given their debt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: And when kamma falls away, it does just because it's the time for it, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Falling away of kamma may be equated with giving rise to their effects. Otherwise they will be there all the time until the end of the whole samsara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: automatically like a rupa falls away after a millisecond (or shorter); ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Kamma is not like a rupa. If the results have not been given rise to kamma will never fall away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: or is kamma conditioned and does it only falls away when conditions for that falling away occur ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When conditions fall away, kamma do not fall away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Or means 'used up": only when the being living with this kamma, has experienced the results of it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. It is used up means the results have been given rise to. That is the debt is return and nothing more to pay back. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: If you answer: please not to much Pali and not a to broad context. Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know. I just use simple terms in this reply. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41607 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:28am Subject: jhanas: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep - Ken O Hi Ken O, KenO: Aiya, I said before already, one cannot go into immaterial jhanas without going through the material jhanas ;-). James: And as I said, the Buddha did it before he became enlightened! Wanna arm wrestle over it?? ;-)) This conversation isn't going anywhere because you don't directly address what I write and which I support with sutta quotations. Remember, your word is not the word of God…or the Buddha. ;-) Metta, James 41608 From: nina Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:33am Subject: Pilgrimage India 4 c Pilgrimage India 4 c In India we were often disturbed by beggars who would touch us, or even push us or make us stumble while we were walking to the holy places. Conceit is bound to arise while we are thinking: why are they doing this to us? We cling to the importance of self and this can condition aversion, dosa. Such situations are a test for our patience. If there would be less clinging to a person or a self there would be more conditions for kusala citta. Wrong view of personality, sakkaya diììhi, is a main cause of many other defilements. The sotåpanna who has eradicated wrong view cannot transgress the five precepts anymore, he does not steal, kill, lie or harm other beings by evil deeds. I am inclined to be angry because of what others do to me. I am thinking of a situation and I blame others. I am always thinking of other people as being the cause of my aversion. This kind of thinking is not helpful to cure anger. The Buddha taught us that anger arises with the citta and that it has nothing to do with the outward circumstances and other people. Anger has become a habit, because formerly we were angry many times. We accumulated this inclination from life to life. There are conditions for its arising, it is conditioned by lobha, attachment. When things are not the way we would like them to be we have aversion. It is also conditioned by ignorance of realities. Aversion, dosa, and attachment, lobha, are real for everybody, no matter how we call them. They are not situations, they are not persons, not conventional realities. They are real in the ultimate sense. It is important to learn their different characteristics when they appear. In this way there can be right understanding of dhammas as impersonal elements, not self or mine. I said to Acharn Sujin that I cling to people who are dear to me, that I cling to the idea of a person. She said: is seeing Nina, is hearing Nina? The answer is no, these cittas arise and fall away immediately. Whatever appears does so because of its own conditions, and this can help us to have a certain degree of detachment, although it is mostly on the level of intellectual understanding. The purpose of the teachings is not to stop thinking, clinging to persons or worrying about them, but to understand such moments as dhammas arising because of their own conditions. ****** Nina. 41609 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) - Definition of Pali Words --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Illusion" wrote: For those of you,including myself :), who do not understand the meaning of these pali words posted by Htoo Naing in the Dhamma Thread, here are the definitions that I looked up in the Buddhist Dictionary. Hopefully it is beneficial. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your post. Whenever you post, could you please address someone or some members and all members? Without addressing your message would be like 'a man without a head'. When you end your message, could you please sign your name at the bottom. Otherwise it would be like 'a man without any foot'. With Metta, Htoo Naing ~~~~ Dhamma Thread is now at the station of DT(250). It starts with very very very simple and the messages are with all the explanations. And at the bottom of each and every message, there encourages that any question, query etc are welcome. This also include 'to ask any Pali word if they believe they have not learned yet. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > maranasanna-javana: marana meaning "death" means the disappearance > of the vital faculty confined to a single life-time. But strictly > speaking,---snipped-- > This consciousness has not come from the previous existence to this > present existence, yet that it has come into existence by means of > conditions included in the previous existence. This fact may be > illustrated by various things, such as the echo, the light of a > lamp, the impression of a seal, or the image produced by a mirror. > For just as the resounding of the echo is conditioned by a sound, > etc., and nowhere a transmigration of sound has taken place, just so > it is with this consciousness. []\/[]aya []Dutra {ô_ô} (Maya Putra) "I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is subject to change and unsatisfaction." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: []\/[] = M []D = P Maya Putra = mayaputra = artupayam ---> artupayam@hot.... 41610 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:53am Subject: Re: for James Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary summary > ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 > "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view > (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the > Four Noble Truths. Right intention (sammasmakappa) is the cetasika of > initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, > and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three > abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. Right > mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. Right > concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta > system." Thanks for sharing this. Did you have any comments? Metta, James 41611 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2, oral tradition. Dear Htoo, This is very interesting. I also think that oral tradition is very reliable. Think of the whole group doing it and the control they have if someone makes a mistake. Generally people do not trust oral tradition. Can you tell us more please about oral tradiiton and how it works? Nina. op 01-02-2005 19:08 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > All Buddha teachings were handed down only by oral citation until 4th > Buddhists Council. > > Actually oral citations are much much more accurate than written > equivalent. Because written scripts need voicing and timing of > voicing. 41612 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: for James Hi Htoo - You have offered some leading questions for further discussion. H: > There are times that suttas and abhidhamma should not mix. > Example when you offer something to someone you should just offer > conventionally. Otherwise??? > T: Very good, friend. Please tell us about the examples you had in mind. Otherwise, what? H: > Nama and dhamma is holding rupa and then nama > and rupa is offering rupa to nama and rupa. > > Do you recognize any sense in above sentence? > T: Are you referring to a looping-back part of the Dependent Origination : Vinnana-paccaya nama-rupam; nama-rupa-paccaya vinnanam, or are you talking about a citta-vithi during meditation? Forgive my Abhidhamma inadequacy. (: =|) Warm regards, Tep ============== > Dear Tep (Connie, Ken O and All), > > This is why suttas should be leanred along with learning of > abhidhamma and commentaries. Suttas use conventioanl language. > > There are times that suttas and abhidhamma should not mix. > > Example when you offer something to someone you should just offer > conventionally. Otherwise??? > > Nama and dhamma is holding rupa and then nama and rupa is offering > rupa to nama and rupa. > > Do you recognize any sense in above sentence? > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 41613 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Kel Thanks for coming in on this. kelvin_lwin wrote: >Hi Jon and Howard, > >... > From following this thread I got general questions. Why can't >both ways work? If one is able to see paramattha dhammas directly >then they would work with that. If not they can work with pannatti >and work toward paramattha. > Is this the message we get from reading the suttas? -- I don't think so. No suggestion that a 2-track approach is being taught. I rather think that, whatever conventional action is being talked about (and there is of course much talk about conventional actions in the suttas), the reference is always to the kusala mind-state that underlies the outward deed. If we don't 'get' this then we will just end up developing more akusala. > Also if someone is able to be >completely within present moment during everyday activities then do >that. If other people need quiet and dedicated sessions of >meditation to get to that level then let them do that. Or mix and >match the two as required. Why does it all have to be one way or >another? > > Well, I am certainly not against a quiet time ;-)) As regards dedicated sessions of meditation, I would have to say that depends what you mean. Could you be more specific? Jon 41614 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 2:29pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Hi Joop, Perhaps others replies are better suited with what you're looking for. I probably went too deep technically. > So kamma is made out of cittas. But what I understood till now is > that cittas are arising and falling away, even in a rather quick way: > within milliseconds. So how can the kamma-bearing-cittas travel > through time ? Kel: An example of an original act is a mahakusala citta. Then when it gives result, it's called mahavipaka citta or kamma. As others said time between them is indeterminate. It's just cause and effect relation and there IS one to one correspondence. > to the next set, it's not clear to me how these cittas can carry so > much kamma-information: billions of bits? Kel: They're not really carried as much as linked. That's how recollection of past lives work, you basically work backwards from current citta. > know your big knowledge of Abhidhamma but this sounds so > mechanical, not spiritual at all. Kel: Well to me abhidhamma is mechnical, it's just simple causal laws. If you wanted a spiritual view of kammic laws I would've said something like: The importance of current action/volition should be realized as you're bound to suffer the consequences of it for eternity. There's no benevolent God to ask for forgiveness. You do the crime, you do the time. After you have suffered enough to fit the original act then it won't hurt you anymore. > It does not resonate in me in a manner of "this > must be true" like many other parts of the Teachings (as anicca, > anatta and the three roots) do resonate. It is like kamma works Kel: A big surprise then it's included in something an ordinary person shouldn't think about? :) - kel 41615 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, > >Kel: From following this thread I got general questions. Why can't > >both ways work? If one is able to see paramattha dhammas directly > >then they would work with that. If not they can work with pannatti > >and work toward paramattha. > > > > Is this the message we get from reading the suttas? -- I don't think > so. No suggestion that a 2-track approach is being taught. Kel: I dunno what is being taught from suttas anymore with all the spinning going on. I just rely on what is being taught in meditation centers in tradition of different teachers. They all seem to discuss working with pannatti to reach paramattha. They also appear to give different instructions depending on the level and ability of the student. I view it not so much 2-track approach but different stages of the path? >J: the reference is always to the kusala mind-state that underlies the > outward deed. If we don't 'get' this then we will just end up > developing more akusala. Kel: In some teachers' view our natural state is akusala anyway. So if you can get a moment of kusala then you're already coming out ahead. Whether or not that's enough for enlightenment is another story I suppose. > Well, I am certainly not against a quiet time ;-)) As regards > dedicated sessions of meditation, I would have to say that depends what > you mean. Could you be more specific? Kel: I didn't want to use "formal meditation" but I guess that's the general idea. Going to a quiet place so the assault on senses are less. Kinda like a "clean room" for maufacturing computer chips or sanitary room used for surgery operations. When something is delicate, it requires more protection and nurturing. Once it's strong, it can withstand more things. So along with the theme I had above, for people at varying stages, the practice might indeed be different. I agree that real judge of progress is in how well we handle vicissitudes of life. I don't necessarily agree that normal life is a good setting to practice for everyone. People who are firmly established in practice are able to do it I'm sure. For myself I know, I'm just barely hanging on and gradually slipping when I'm back to normal life. Only in a quiet and protected environment of a retreat, I'm able to recharge so to speak. It's just a fact that I've observed about myself and others around me. - Kel 41616 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 3:55pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, ---------------------- T: > This sutta deserves a careful study, Ken. If you can give the title and reference (e.g. MN, AN, or whatever, with the number) then I would be thankful. > ----------------------- I have never read it, but Robert K has quoted it here on DSG: RK: > In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: "as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days." > ------------- T: > My opinion based on the above quote is that merchants those days traveled a lot and did not have time (or strong saddha) to practice earnestly. Therefore, they only had to slowly and occasionally chew the Teachings (that are profound/deep in meaning/concerned with anatta) and be contented at that level of study. -------- As you know, I understand the practice to be more flexible than the way you describe it. To the extent that the Dhamma has been heard and considered, there can be practice at any time of day. Like all cittas, kusala-citta-with-panna is very fast, and there is no need to set aside a special time - quite the reverse, in fact. As for the amount of time devoted to study, that would be purely a lifestyle issue. A busy man will devote less time than a man of leisure. But that is of little consequence: in all the time we spend with our books and at DSG, it is only the occasional kusala moments that count as factors for enlightenment. If we were devoting more time than was reasonably available, that might be an indicator of lobha and wrong view. Thanks for your other kind remarks. I can honestly say I had noticed your own friendly and constructive attitude and wanted to follow your example (at least while I'm talking to you :-) ). Ken H 41617 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Re: Pilgrimage India 4 c lobha conditions anger Hello Nina, and all > The Buddha taught us that anger arises with the citta and that it has > nothing to do with the outward circumstances and other people. Anger has > become a habit, because formerly we were angry many times. We accumulated > this inclination from life to life. There are conditions for its arising, it > is conditioned by lobha, attachment. When things are not the way we would > like them to be we have aversion. It is also conditioned by ignorance of > realities. This brings to mind what TG was helping me with the other day - my question about the relationship between lobha and dosa. You say anger "is conditioned by lobha" .. "when things are not the way we would like them to be" we have aversion. Is there lobha preceding the dosa, a moment of clinging to the way you would like things to be preceding the aversion in the citta processes? Say a beggar makes you stumble. Is there a moment of lobha for the way you would like things to be before there is aversion, or is the aversion conditioned by lobha in a less proximate, less direct way? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 41618 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India / Sarah Hi Sarah Thanks (as always) for you long and thoughtful reply S:When we dwell on `I was so mean?Eor `I have so much attachment?E the > clinging to self can be seen right then and there. Awareness and > understanding can't know about what's gone and it's useless to cling more > to past experiences. Only by being aware now, not just thinking, will > there be less and less attachment to signs and details as we were reminded > again and again on our trip. Ph: "Signs and details" - that comes up in the suttas, doesn't it. I think dwelling on signs and details is the condition of the hindrances and so much akusala. So we need to get at the essence of things. The elements. Easier said than done, of course. Still "useless to cling to past experiences" and useless to look at past experiences are not the same thing, I would say - or needen't necessarily be, as long as we know the looking at past experiences is conditioned, not-self. And that we shouldn't do it intentionally. If it arises, it arises. We look. And let go again. > > In the Gangtok garden discussion I mentioned last time, just this point > came up. Nina, I think it was, mentioned the difficulties we'd all > experienced and chatted about while we were sitting on long bus rides. > K.Sujin just interrupted and asked:`what about now??E I should remember this in the staff room. We take breaks between classes and sit and bitch about the students or praise them. ALways such clinging, such aversion. The air is thick with it. We have a hard job and put a lot into it, so the bitching and clinging seems like a just reward. But I should hear that voice - what about now? Quite often I do hear it and sit quietly with a kind of awareness. (only intellectualy, but still of value) > > Gradually by developing awareness, it gets used to realities, rather than > stories about past or future experiences. In this way, there will be less > agitation when there's akusala of any kind. Yes, this is happening. Awareness that stories about past and future simply generate clinging and suffering. There is more and more letting go of them. But of course it still goes on most of the time. It has been accumulated for so long. It would be wrong to believe that it can be snuffed out by will power. > The stories can be cut just like that. Well, in one moment they can. But the will surely arise again, very soon, because of the way they have been accumulated. It will take a long time but we are making progress with every moment of awareness - the danger is not appreciating these moments, which is what I fall into often enough, as demonstrated by the post that you are responded too. The bus rides, the bumps, the > difficulties, the unwholesome thinking ?Eall gone at a moment of > awareness. And then back again and again and again. It will take many lifetimes, I would guess. > We have to become more and more detached from places, people, special > routines and so on as being more suitable too, otherwise there will never > be the development of awareness and understanding of present realities. I liked what Jon asked at one point - I found it in some old discussions that I printed out. About whether cittas when we are really busy, out in the world, are in reality any different than we are at home in the quiet. We cling so much to our physical environment. This is the season that my schedule for the next school year is made and I fret about which schools (it's a chain school) I will be sent to, how many troublesome classes I will have. All this fretting when all that is important is the equanimitous (?) response I make to shifting circumstances, worldly conditions. With a fairly basic degree of wisdom, it shouldn't matter whether I am sitting in a sun-filled classroom with charming students or locked in a closet with neurotic dullards that exhaust me. But I fret and fret and suffer for it. I remember when I met Rob K and asked him how he felt about coming to bustling Tokyo from his more quiet environment and he said it's all the same wherever he was and a doubtful part of doubted this but now I am beginning to understand. I will carry on with the rest of your kind letter tomorrow. Metta, Phil 41619 From: Philip Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India / typo correction Hi again It was probably clear but the doubt was mine, not Rob's. > I remember when I met Rob K and asked him how he felt about coming > to bustling Tokyo from his more quiet environment and he said it's > all the same wherever he is and a doubtful part of ME doubted this but > now I am beginning to understand. Metta Phil 41620 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 10:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 114 - Concentration/ekaggataa (j) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** In the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, Chapter V, §1, Concentration) we read about four ways of developing concentration. As to the first way, the Buddha explained that this is the development of the four stages of jhåna which leads to ‘happy living’ in this life. As to the second kind, this is the concentration on ‘consciousness of light’ which is a meditation subject of samatha. This leads to ’knowledge and insight’ which means in this context, according to the commentary (Manorathapúraùí), clairvoyance. As regards the third way of developing concentration, this leads, if developed and made much of, to ‘mindfulness and wellawareness’. We read: * "Herein, monks, the feelings which arise in a monk are evident to him, the feelings which abide with him are evident to him, the feelings which come to an end in him are evident to him. The perceptions which arise in him… the trains of thought which arise in him, which abide with him, which come to an end in him are evident to him. This monks, is called ‘the making-concentration-to-become which conduces to mindfulness and well-awareness’." * As regard the fourth way of developing concentration, this leads to the destruction of the ‘åsavas’ (defilements). We read: * "And what sort of making-concentration-to-become, if developed and made much of, conduces to the destruction of the åsavas? Herein a monk dwells observing the rise and fall in the five khandhas of grasping, thus: Such is rúpa, such is the arising of rúpa, such its vanishing. Such is feeling …such is perception …such are the activities …Such is consciousness, such is the arising of consciousness, such the vanishing of consciousness. This, monks, is called ‘the making-concentration-to-become which conduces to the destruction of the åsavas’. These are the four forms of it. Moreover, in this connection I thus spoke in ‘The Chapter on the Goal’ in (the sutta called) ‘The Questions of Puùùaka’: By searching in the world things high and low, He who has naught to stir him in the world, Calm and unclouded, cheerful, freed of longing, He has crossed over birth and old age, I say." * ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41621 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi James (& TG), Thx for the sutta passages and your comments in this thread. Good points. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah and TG, > > Sarah: You say all dreams and fantasies and any concepts are > conditioned. Please give me your sutta quotes for this. > > James: Concepts are conditioned by the mind's tendency to mental > proliferation (In Pali: Papanca). From SN 18 "The Honeyball": > > "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one > perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one > mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as > the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation > beset a man with respect to past, future, and present forms > cognizable through the eye. > (…Continued for the other sense spheres). …. S: Good sutta to quote in this context. What I understand to be conditioned are the dhammas (realities) such as: 1. eye-base and forms (visible objects)- rupas 2.eye-consciousness-nama 3. contact and feelings- namas 4. perception –nama 5. thinking – nama 6. proliferations – greed, conceit and wrong view –namas 7. more thinking and proliferating about visible objects etc –namas The concepts, the objects of the proliferations are experienced or proliferated, but it is the actual realities (dhammas) above which are conditioned in the sense of sankhata dhammas (conditioned dhammas) as taught by the Buddha in an ultimate sense, such as in D.O. …. > James: The Buddha's path of liberation also includes being mindful > of concepts and consequently not being lead astray by them. From SN > 131 "A Single Excellent Night": > > Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; 1212 > > 1212: MA: He should contemplate each presently arisen state, just > where it has arisen, by way of the seven contemplations of insight > (insight into impermanence, suffering, non-self, disenchantment, > dispassion, cessation, relinquishment). > > To my reading, "state" here doesn't necessarily apply to namas and > rupas in there raw sense, but to any state. … S: the Pali for state is dhamma. Each dhamma (nama and rupa) to be seen with insight (vipassanaa) at the present moment. …. >From the Honeyball > Sutta one can see that mental proliferations (concepts) are often > states that arise at the moment …. S: See in U.P. under ‘papanca’ (proliferations). They refer to lobha etc accompanying thinking and perception (sanna). Concepts are the objects of this. Good points to raise and discuss further. Even when there is proliferation with wrong view, the dhammas themselves of thinking, marking and wrong view are real and can be known. Thanks again for your comments. I also greatly appreciated a couple of your posts with good insights to Nina, I think. Do you have CMA now, or just access to the intro on line? I liked your questions and comments on cetasikas. Metta, Sarah ====== 41622 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Whether The Buddha spoke Pali or not > the 4th Buddhists Council recorded the teachings in Sanskript, Pali, >========== Dear Htoo, I never knew this. Do you have the reference about the bhikkhus reciting the teachings in Sanskrit. Robertk 41623 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi James, I wasn’t sure if you were wanting further feedback here or not:-/ --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Oh Sarah, there's no storm. ;-) It's just the same old, > tired banter of me trying to get you to loosen up on your attachment > to your views, and you absolutely refusing to budge. You won't even > entertain for a second that you might be mistaken. That is some > strong attachment! I hope I am not like that- but if I am feel free > to tell me. Anyway, thanks for the compliment about `well-written' > . …. S: Perhaps it was that start to your message which might have made me wonder and hesitate.... Perhaps, like you said to Rob K about taking care of your kamma, we should all take care of our own attachments too?? …. > James: This is the dhamma according to Sarah; what about the dhamma > according to the Buddha? What `steps' does he recommend? Take for > example this sutta where the Buddha describes the stages in reverse > order: > > "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total > ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, > never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: > such are the monks in this community of monks. <…> > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html#sangha > > James: So, the dhamma according to the Buddha begins with > mindfulness of in and out breathing. That is the first baby step > (to use your analogy) and yet you don't believe in the value of > being mindful of in and out breathing: … S: If this is the first baby step for all, why isn’t it stressed as being so in every sutta we read? Why do we read in the HoneyBall Sutta, for example, about seeing consciousness, visible objects, proliferations and so on? Why do we read about present moment dhammas to be known with insight in the Bhaddekeratta Sutta? Why isn’t it stressed in the 4 Noble Truths or the 8fold path factors? …. >"Oh, that is being selective > about the object of awareness. Oh, that reinforces the idea of > a `self' which can do something. Oh, oh, oh…" Sarah, you aren't > even taking the first baby steps, you are just talking. > I'm going to skip some of your other points because they are really > repetition of the same point. … S: Thx for giving the responses. Again. Let’s take care of our own baby steps rather than worrying about each other’s. … > Sarah: No, I'm not making difficult sacrifices or having `painful > sitting in meditation',but then I believe the development of any > kind of kusala (with calm naturally) is light, free of torment and > not about beating oneself up in anyway. The Middle Path. > > James: No, that is not the middle path- that is the self-indulgent > path. I can be self-indulgent also, but I at least admit it- and > don't confuse that with real practice. You should call a spade for > spade. … S: In your experience, can there be ‘real practice’ or development of insight into presently arisen states (dhammas) when you’re not having ‘painful sitting in meditation’ or focused on breath? Or are these pre-requisites for any awareness or understanding of any kind to develop? I’m asking because I'm sincerely interested in your view. Metta, Sarah ======= 41624 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:55pm Subject: Absolute Harmlessness ... !!! Friends: Friendliness means Goodwill Friendliness means Kindness Friendliness means Helpfulness Friendliness means Assistance Friendliness means Support Friendliness means Benevolence Friendliness means Concern Friendliness means Care Friendliness means Compassion Friendliness means Cooperation Friendliness means Mutual Aid Friendliness means Mutual Advantage Friendliness means Symbiosis Friendliness means Sympathy Friendliness means Basic Trust A friend who always lends a hand, a friend both in sorrow and joy, a friend who offers good counsel, a friend who sympathizes too. These are the four kinds of true friends: one who is wise, having understood, will always cherish and serve such friends just as a mother tends her only child. D III 188 As a mother even with her life protects her only child, so let one cultivate immeasurable loving-kindness towards all living beings. Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance the release of mind by infinite & endless friendliness far excels & even surpasses them all. Itivuttaka 27 He who does not strike nor makes others strike, who robs not nor makes others rob, sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none... Itivuttaka 22 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none... S I 208 When one with a mind of love feels compassion for the entire world -- above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. J 37 I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. A II 72 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived on the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love & takes always delight in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy & make it immovable and unshakable. I develop the divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. Theragatha. 648-9 Yeah, verily so !!! Friendship is really the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 41625 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable Questions. Dear Joop, I just wished to say that I thought the research and sutta quotes you gave on this thread were excellent and very helpful.(#41371) For someone so unorthodox and with all the other labels you give yourself, you do pretty well here;-). Your recent questions and comments on kamma are very good too. Sometimees I think that it is those who really question every aspect as you and James do, who potentially get the most benefit from the Teachings. Metta, Sarah --- jwromeijn wrote: > > I have found the "10 indeterminable question" or "10 unanswerable > questions" three times in the Suttas: 41626 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:38pm Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Hi, Htoo, Sarah, I think the 'mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or intelligent person' has to do with which roots are there at relinking... so the science wiz might have all three of the good roots, but more or less waste them feeding them math or stars or whatever instead of Dhamma. Anyway, this root business is mentioned in the SPD... if I remember right, with the same conclusion: who knows their roots. peace, connie 41627 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:38pm Subject: Re: for James Hi, James (and Tep), Sorry about the no comment, no greeting, nothing but a quote post, James. I just ran across it while I was doing something else and for some reason I thought you'd said something along those lines - the "right concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the suttanta system" part - to Sarah and I was going to look back in the archives for it, but you see how far I got with that. Now, I'm wondering if it was even you and don't remember what exactly I had in mind. But I came across another one today from the MN: "Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors - right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness - is called noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions" and then it goes on thru the different factors and keeps saying "right view is the fore-runner". I guess that 'singleness of mind' is the jhana in question and it only happens when all the other factors "without effluents, transcendent" are there and not just 'any old jhana' if there is such a thing - whatever Buddha's teachers did/had. Then, I think about the sotapanna (or "whoever is endowed with this noble 8-fold path") not having to master jhanas and how satipatthana is called 'five-fold path development' because of the factors that develop together then, but not (necessarily?) during any other kind of 'meditation'. So, I think I'll just skip out on the right concentration topic because I'm sure I don't have it and look back at right view beyond some basic intellectual understanding. "And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path." Discernment?! Well, I'm not much there, either. I can talk about nama and rupa, but what do I really know? Surely not what 'breath' is beyond repeating 'a cittaja rupa'. Man, life was so much simpler when I was told to just shut up and sit or leave. peace, connie 41628 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:38pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Hi, Htoo, Kel, Joop, What about ahosi kamma? Wouldn't that be kind of a 'fallen away' kind? I'm thinking about the strength of the kamma as it relates to which javana and thought the weakest kamma might 'die off' at the end of the life-span if it hadn't come to fruition by then. Or does it not 'fall away' unless and until parinibbana? I also thought if someone became sotapanna, there wouldn't be some conditions arising anymore for certain results, but I guess the kamma could just play out some other way than it would have otherwise. Does that make sense? peace, connie - with head and foot ;) 41629 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi KenH, --- kenhowardau wrote: You wrote to Tep: > Yes, the end product you are talking about does require a lot of > preparation. But, even now, there can be a degree of right > understanding. To the extent that we have studied the true Dhamma, > there can, at least, be right *intellectual* understanding of the > present dhammas. I doubt a beginner like me would ever have moments > of direct understanding. They would have to be of an extremely weak > level. (I remember DSG has discussed this before, but can't > remember what we concluded. :-) ) ... S: I don't recall the conversation, but remember a similar live one with Sukin some time back. Of course any undesrstanding is weak in the beginning, but it grows as sati is aware more and more often, I think. No need to have any expectations one way or another or to think of 'this beginner'.Also, there's no need to have doubts whether that direct understanding will and does develop. I'm sure it's (any doubt that is) very fleeting in your case. You may well smile when you look back at these comments a little later. I notice that Sukin no longer questions or wonders along these lines. He may add more. Metta, Sarah p.s I laughed at your friend's dukkha breakfast;-) ====== 41630 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Hi Connie & Htoo, --- connie wrote: > > > Hi, Htoo, Sarah, > > I think the 'mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or > > intelligent person' has to do with which roots are there at relinking... ... S: that's what I would have guessed, but then Htoo was referring to them in the context of enlightenment and phala cittas (as I recall). As we know, the two rooted puggalas have no chance of developing insight (vipassana nanas) or enlightenment, so that's why I wondered if he had something else in mind. To be honest, I'm behind on my reading and haven't read Htoo's latest replies to me yet, so I don't know if he's explained further. Pls do quote anything relevant (or irrelevant if it's interesting!) on this or anything else. Always good to have your input, Connie. Just hope (lots of attachment here) that both your and Phil's computers keep chugging along. Metta, Sarah p.s it's definitely not me discussing jhanas with James right now (quite enough on my plate;-)). Perhaps you're thinking of Ken O? I'll look forward to reading your discussions with them on the topic;-). 41631 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Experience of objects Dear Nina (& James), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > J: Ps. If you tell me that cetasikas can only be differentiated from > > cittas by `insight', I would like you to explain precisely what you > > mean. Otherwise, you might as well just say "It's MAGIC"! ;-)) > >N: Sati can be aware of one dhamma at a time, and then paññaa can > gradually > know different characteristics of dhammas that appear. No need to name > citta > or cetasika, just characteristics that appear. That is the way. Later on > citta can be differentiated from cetasikas, but for me still a long way. > But > the subject is worth discussing more, perhaps Rob K, Sarah, Mike or > anyone > else can add something. I like some input to discuss further. ... Btw, Mike wrote to me a couple of weeks or so ago to say he was going on a holiday to Mexico with Rose so would be out of touch for a while. I didn't add more because I thought you already explained very well. James asked very good questions on this thread. We don't need to try to differentiate, but when there is awareness of seeing consciousness, for example, its characteristic which is that of just 'seeing' visible object, is quite different from say feeling (pleasant or unpleasant or neutral) or attachment, to put it simply. Of course, some cittas or mental factors are more obvious and more likely to be objects of awareness than others. For those which don't appear or are not obvious at all, such as phassa (contact), it's useless to try and be aware of them. For that matter, it's useless to try and be aware of the more obvious ones too. James, I think the development of awareness and insight is a little like magic as you suggest;-). Like the bunny popping out of the hat, we never know when there will be conditions for awareness or insight or what the object will be. One thing for sure, we have to read/hear and consider a lot, over and over again, for such insight to develop, I think. Metta, Sarah ============ 41632 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil Hello Hugo, I'm enjoying your extracts from different books/teachers and of course that great humour again like in your ice-cream post to Phil;-);-). --- Hugo wrote: > > Hello Sarah, > > On the topics of photos, I went to a ceremony (requisites offering) > where one of the monks took pictures of us :-) > > The monks sitting on their little platform just before the ceremony > starts and all the laypeople sitting on the ground, then one of the > monks pulls out a camera and takes a couple of pictures. > > It was funny, this is the first event I have seen where the > "panelists" take photos of the "audience". ... S: I'm trying not to smile here as it may not be respectful;-). What I'd really like would be a copy of the pic they took of you in the DSG photo album... When I mentioned the pics, I'm just trying to encourage regulars like you, TG, Kel, Tep, JOOP, Cosmique, Malia and so on, to put a pic there for us all to see. How about a nice family one instead? I know, an ice-cream family one so Phil has lots of opportunities for brahma-viharas too;-). If anyone needs any assistance, Christine or James are always willing and able to help in this regard. I know that some have their own good reasons for wishing privacy in this regard. Metta, Sarah =========== 41633 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Tep, As everyone else is commenting, your enthusiastic and polite feedback to all suggestions and comments is a good example for us all. I think you'd also find it interesting and helpful to read a chapter from A.Sujin's book 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', Part 1V (or it seems to be under Part V on line),The Development of Insight, ch 1, the Factors leading to Enlightenment: http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf I think it starts at page 186 or 187 (some difference with my hard copy which is less updated). It discusses the 3 meanings of satipatthana, the indriyas (faculties), balas (powers), enlightenment factors and so on. All the areas you're discussing with Kel and Nina. Metta, Sarah --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Dear Nina - > > Thank you for your suggestion. The Nyanatiloka's definition of the five > balas is that they are 'powers' of the 5 spirtual faculties (Indriya) by > the > fact "that they are unshakable by their opposites" and they > represent "the aspect of firmness in the spiritual faculties". I am not > > sure what unskable and firmness mean in the practical sense. 41634 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (249) - Definition of Pali Words Hi Maya, I think it's very helpful indeed and a great idea of yours to check key PALI terms that Htoo (and any of the rest of us) use and to share your findings as you did with the ones starting with maranasanna. You can be very sure that any terms you check or read more about will be very useful to others too. Nyantiloka's dictionary is the best to use for this as you did. (For brief definitions, you may also like to use the simple Pali glossary in the DSG files). I hope we can encourage you to keep doing this. It will help others to take more interest in Htoo's series as well, I think. It's true, as he says, that he always explains terms, but many of us have minds like sieves when it comes to Pali and different kinds of reinforcement and assistance like yourse, helps a lot. Metta, Sarah --- Illusion wrote: > > > For those of you,including myself :), who do not understand the meaning > of these pali words posted by Htoo Naing in the Dhamma Thread, here are > the definitions that I looked up in the Buddhist Dictionary. Hopefully > it is beneficial. > > MARANASANNA-JAVANA: marana meaning "death" means the disappearance of > the vital faculty confined to a single life-time. But strictly speaking, > death is continuously occuring through repeated dissolution and > vanishing of each momentar physical-mental combination, so it takes > place every moment. (more info on momentary existence, see Visuddhi > Magga VIII) 41635 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Howard, Back to our 'Spring-time' discussions;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: >>S:He stressed > that > > the knowing of the 'all' are just these paramattha dhammas... the > khandhas > > (and nibbana). > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > When he talked to his followers about guarding the senses, and > clenching the teeth, and sitting with back straight and attention to the > fore, and > seeking out good Dhamma friends who are the whole of the holy life etc, > etc etc. > he was speaking of conventional actions. ... S: I would say, he was using conventional speech and talking about conventionally sounding actions, but without any misapprehension of the dhammas underlying them as Jon is discussing with you. For example,guarding the senses, refers to moments of satipatthana, awareness of realities, when there is awareness of visible object and so on and 'he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor its parts'. As I was discussing with Phil, with the growth of awareness there is naturally less attention to signs and details and this kind of sila follows naturally. If there is a 'trying to be aware and guard the eye door kind of thing' (not that you've ever suggested that), satipatthana and indriya samvara sila (guarding of the sense doors) will never develop as I see it. .... >Those who were high ariyans > certainly understood the realities underlying all this conventional > speech, as they > did the realities underlying this entire projected world of concept, but > most of > his followers did not, nor did they need to in order to follow his > instructions. .... S: I think it's just a question of whether when we read and use conventional speech as to whether it is with any understanding of dhammas (realities) being developed or whether it's with an idea of self. If it's the latter, the message is bound to be lost and for those followers, the instructions would have been no more useful than if they had followed another teacher. We don't need a Buddha to tell us what is conventionally good and bad, do we? It's true to say, I think, that the Buddha just pointed out what's what, what's good, what's bad, what leads to what result and so on. Of course, we just gain the benefit according to our limited understanding at anytime. This is why the appreciation of the suttas grows as we learn more about anatta and paramattha dhammas. .... <...> ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes. I agree entirely. > ------------------------------------ > > > > > Yes, we use concepts and ‘operate at the conventional, conceptual > level’, > > but such ‘operating’ can be with or without wrong view about > dhammas at > > any given moment. Clearly, for the ariyans, when talking about purple > > elephants or trees in the garden, there would have been no illusion > that > > these were anything but conceptual terms used for expression. > > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > I agree completely! (So, why was I only "half right"? ;-) > ----------------------------------- S: ;-)If you tell me you agree completely with my comments so far in this post, I'll give you a 'completely right' ;-). .... ***** > Howard: > Perhaps. I am aware that this is said about cittas in the > commentaries. Actually, the growth, peaking, and declining (in > intensity) of a mindstate, > like a wave, makes perfectly good sense to me, and I have no problem > with that > - in fact it appeals to me. But I don't think of that sort of change as > very > important. > When dhammas arise or cease, pa~n~natti that we project onto the > dhammic stream seem to change, but the reality of the matter is that > dhammas > themselves, don't turn into other dhammas - they don't change their > nature. When a > dhamma ceases, it is *gone*. When a dhamma arises, it is brand new - > never "on > the scene" before. It may seem that we hear a changing melody. But "the > melody" is conceptually projected upon a multitude of sounds, each of > which arises > anew and then ceases, never to repeat. There is *always* something new > under > the sun!! (My variation on a theme of Ecclesiastes! ;-) That is what I > was > alluding to. > ----------------------------------------- ... S: Well said, Howard. No disagreement here at all. Good to talk to you and hear your comments. Apologies for the delay in reply as usual. Metta, Sarah ======= 41636 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: Kamma and Buddhism (was Dhamma Threade 249/ old kamma used up Dear Htoo, Nina, Kel and all After Htoo's answers (and more than that, thanks !) the "I don't understand" got smaller, the "I understand more or less" has grown. Still the "I'm agnostic about it" exists. I have not understood all the details of Htoos answer, but the big lines are clear. I have five questions: four to you and one to myself. 1 One of the principles that is to me the most important in Buddhism is that of 'anicca'. So the idea all phenomena are arising and falling away is evident to me. So why is kamma not just falling away? I sometimes got the impression the 'anatta' principle and the 'dukkha' principle are much more important in this DSG than the 'anicca' principle. 2 I was careful in my questions because I thought "where (of what 'material') is kamma made of" is one of the four 'unthinkables' (acinteyya), but I did not get the impression from your answers that that was so. Still I don't know exactly what it is: a cetasika and not a cetasika , that what I understand of Htoo in answer # 5; and also it is something the javana cittas will create continously, a "potential": so an energy in my frame of reference. Nina quotes U Narada: "a special force", a force is not a nama, I think (and 'force' not exactly the same as 'energy' in physics). Perhaps the composition of kamma is really a mystery, an unthinkable? 3 A technical question already asked to Kel. A lifetime kamma is much information, billions of bits. How can I imagine the medium on which all that information is stored: in a few cittas ? Is there a good (=modern) metaphore that can help my imagination, for example: is it a black hole ? 4 Two weeks ago I had a short discussion with Nina about het proposal I can comtemplate on the topic good/evil or kusala/akusala; the thought on that discussion came back in the question that arose now in my: how about the idea of innocence ? Is a child born innocent or with a backpack of kamma ? 'Innocence' and 'natural goodness' are not exactly the same concept but I think both do not fit in the Abhidhamma-system, is that correct ? 5 The question to myself is: is it possible to be a Buddhist, even a Theravadin, without believing in the idea of rebirth. Kamma and rebirth are in the text so interwoven that it's possible to taljk about one withpout talking about the other. Still it's possible to understand and believe the working of kamma within ones lifetime. As I said to Kel: rebirth is one of the Theravada-ideas that do not resonate in me, like for example the anicca-principle does. Metta Joop 41637 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:43am Subject: Adapted Buddhisms and Second - Third - Fourth Vehicle Dear Dhamma Friends, Buddhism was founded by The Buddha Gotama. Actually it is not just an ism. The Buddha Gotama preached really achievable things and He preached how to be liberated from the round of birth-rebirth-cycle or samsara. Actually 'Buddhism' the word is given by others. As there was only one and a single Buddha in His sasana or teachings, there cannot be many many Buddhisms. But some were not happy with the teachings and they tried to adapt the teachings and the vinaya or bhikkhu rules. Whether or not adapted, dhammas work in line with their own characteristics. In the polar regions, the weather is different from the equator region. For that 'should bhikkhus have their head unshaved?, should wear other dressings after removing robes? should they have 4 meals to protect cold so that the body generate heat by eating more? As soon as adapted, that already adapted condition has been made by the mind and that mind should be pure. If it is indifferent that is adaptation is made by the only reason of self-fitness then that may reveal dispect to The Buddha. The Buddha preached suitability [sappaya]. If there is no suitability then it will not work. The Buddha did not leave any message regarding adaptation. When bhikkhus were weeping and crying when they knew Bhagava was leaving for ever, Bhagava said, 'even though I will not be there after my leaving, there will be my teachings. As long as you all treat them as if 'the teaching' is me it will be fine. As soon as you alter it, then all disappear 'me and my teachings' and that is the end of my teachings [sasana]. 'Whoever dare adapt, it is them who do that and they will be responsible for their thoughts and their actions'. Bhagava will be smiling because this is just a minute portion of those who have such thoughts of adaptation. Once Devadattha asked Bhagava regarding vinayas. He asked for 10 rules to be laid down by Bhagava as vinaya or bhikkhu's rules. But Bhagava denied all 10 requests. Devadattha asked for that to adapt the teachings. Among them one is 'forest dwelling' and another is 'not to eat meat'. The Buddha denied all 10 requests including these 2 requests of forest dwelling and not to eat meat. The Buddha foresaw every pros and cons and saw possible implications. This denial was not just simple. Devadattha, when he was not allow to adapt vinaya he declared that he was going to act as The Buddha and he would pass 10 extra rules for bhikkhus, all of which were not allowed by The Buddha Gotama, and any bhikkhus who agreed with him [Devadattha] could follow him and then he left The Buddha. 1000 bhikkhus followed Devadattha because they confused that what Devadattha was talking sounded like right such as 'not eating meat, forest dwelling, not exceeding possession of 3 robes, not wandering for food, etc etc'. The Buddha knew that half of 1000 bhikkhus who followed Devadattha were highly perfected and they would soon become sotapam. To save them The Buddha instruct Sariputta to meet those 1000 bhikkhus. When Sariputta arrived at Devadattha's new monastry, he welcome Sariputta with much respect and said 'O! Son Sariputta. That is good of you to join my Sangha. Now I have adapted the teachings made by The Buddha Gotama because they were not all right. I am The Buddha Devadattha. After some preaching to 1000 bhikkhus Devadattha became tired and told Sariputta. 'O! Son Sariputta. Now continue my preaching. I have a back-ache and I am going to have a rest. This is imitation to The Buddha Gotama. The Buddha Gotama delegated Sariputta on some occasions to continue what He has been preaching and He Himslef took a rest. The Buddha Gotama never went asleep in the evenings. Instead The Buddha would stay in phala-samapatti or fruition-attainment. But unlike The Buddha Gotama, Devadattha went into deep sleep as soon as he touch the bed. The Sariputta preached the great Dhamma and the Marshal of Dhamma, Sariputta caused bhikkhus delighted and he said he was going back to The Buddha and whoever want to join could follw him. 500 good bhikkhus immediately agreed to follow the Marshal of Dhamma, Sariputta while another 500 bhikhus were confused and they dare not leave Devadattha even thought they thought The Dhamma of Sariputta was great. These 500 dare not leave because they knew that Devadattha had a great jhana power and they were afraid of his power. Devadattha made adaptation. Not very soon, he got stomach pain because of continuous preaching, not having eaten proper food, not supported by laities and soon he started to vomit blood. After several times of vomiting of blood he realised that he would not live long. Devadattha, the adaptor of teachings and vinaya, thought over what he had done. Actually, The Buddha Gotama was his blood-related 1st cousin and The Buddha Gotama had been his brother-in-law, who had married to his lovely sister, princess Yasodhara. Devadattha knew that he had done a lot of bad things to his brother-in-law. He first organised a team of archers to kill The Buddha but without any success and all archers became sotapams. He then diligently tried to harm The Live Buddha by organizing the king Ajatasattu and tried to kill The Buddha with the aid of hugh, rough, angry, intoxicated elephant. The elephant, instead of crushing The Buddha, became out of intoxication and became well tamed and sat in front of The Buddha. The third time, Devadattha himself arrange a hugh mountain-stone to be dislodged from the high top of mountain [hill] so that it came down and hurt and crush The Buddha. But this just caused bruising of The Buddha's great toe. Devadattha became regreted and he said to his 500 followers to carry him on a carrier raft to The Buddha. They carried Devadattha to The Buddha. Some bhukkhus in the monastry of The Buddha informed The Buddha, Sariputta and other Elderly that Devadattha was coming. The Buddha said, 'Don't worry. Devadattha cannot come to me and he has no more right to see me again however hard he tries.' But young bhikkhus were so worried that they reported very frequently that they [Devadattha and 500 followers] arrived at such and such place. Finally Devadattha arrived near the monastry. He instructed his followers that he would like to decend to the ground and they helped him down. As soon as the adaptor of teachings and vinaya, Devadattha touched the ground, the earth could no more bear such a wicked person on the ground and the earth became cracked and there arose a great flame and Devadattha had to sink inch by inch and finally the earth engulfed him completely. This is where adaptor, Devadattha went for his actions of adapting the teachings, adapting the vinaya, adapting the sangha and many other that is adapting to his mind's needs. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41638 From: Philip Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:44am Subject: Re: Absolute Harmlessness ... !!! Hello Bhikkhu Samahita, and all Thank you for this, Bhikkhu. Very inspiring. > Friends: > Friendliness means Goodwill > Friendliness means Kindness > Friendliness means Helpfulness (followed by many other wonderful passages about friendship) I would add that it's helpful to remember that we can't always be friendly. The friendliness arises due to conditions. If we think we can always be friendly, the result will be stressful and a bit sad. Let your bitchiness and grumpiness rise and fall away again! Glare at a noisy child in the train! Snap at your loved ones! It's OK. These things happen. But be aware of it, if possible. Awareness of unwholesome realities when they arise is more wholesome than hoping to always be wholesome. BTW, speaking of friends, has anyone else noticed the slight bit of schadenfreude that creeps when you hear that someone you like very much has had something bad happen to them? A co-worker I'm very fond of drank too much and crashed his bicycle and was quite badly injured. I was sad to hear about it, but also gloated slightly because I stopped drinking and don't have accidents like that anymore. (I did once.) And the way we talked about it at work was somehow thrilled. This schadenfreude seems to creep in. We sincerely feel concern, but there is also a kind of slight gleefulness about other's misfortunes. I use the "we" very loosely, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. And it's OK. These aspects of mind come and go in a way that we shouldn't hope to control and shouldn't fret about. There can't yet be pure friendliness, or absolute harmlessness, because we have accumulated unwholesome tendencies along with the wholesome ones, and both will have their way until we are much further along the path. That being said, thank you again, Bhikkhu. I will print out those passages for inspiration and fostering of more friendliness, more harmlessness. Metta, Phil 41639 From: Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Sarah (and James and TG, and Jon as well) - It seems to me that whenever the topic is "concepts", all sorts of language-use problems come to the fore. I'll try to point out some of these in context below. In a message dated 2/2/05 2:03:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi James (& TG), > > Thx for the sutta passages and your comments in this thread. Good points. > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > >Hi Sarah and TG, > > > >Sarah: You say all dreams and fantasies and any concepts are > >conditioned. Please give me your sutta quotes for this. > > > >James: Concepts are conditioned by the mind's tendency to mental > >proliferation (In Pali: Papanca). From SN 18 "The Honeyball": > > > >"Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The > >meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > >is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one > >perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one > >mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as > >the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation > >beset a man with respect to past, future, and present forms > >cognizable through the eye. > >(…Continued for the other sense spheres). > …. > S: Good sutta to quote in this context. > > What I understand to be conditioned are the dhammas (realities) such as: > > 1. eye-base and forms (visible objects)- rupas > 2.eye-consciousness-nama > 3. contact and feelings- namas > 4. perception –nama > 5. thinking – nama > 6. proliferations – greed, conceit and wrong view –namas > 7. more thinking and proliferating about visible objects etc –namas ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think this matter is so simple. In part there is the question of the Pali involved and its English translation. For starters, what *exactly* are "perceptions and notions"? Perceptions sound like the products of sa~n~na, which may make them (relatively) elementary ideas or proto-ideas, and notions sound like full-blown ideas, which are alleged products of sankharic processing. I personally have no problem with the idea of such mental constructs as proto-ideas and ideas any more than that of feelings and emotions. My only hesitation is that as I examine the thinking process, I never can seem to find these. I only seem to vaguely sense them. Of course this may be a defect in the degree of detail I can pick up due to lack of fineness and intensity of attention and mindfulness. Sarah, under proliferations you include wrong view as a nama. What kind of paramattha dhamma do you mean by that exactly? The usual sense of the English 'wrong view' is a kind of incorrect *concept* or *notion* or *idea*. But if these are nonexistent, then what *is* wrong view? -------------------------------------------- > > The concepts, the objects of the proliferations are experienced or > proliferated, but it is the actual realities (dhammas) above which are > conditioned in the sense of sankhata dhammas (conditioned dhammas) as > taught by the Buddha in an ultimate sense, such as in D.O. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Now here, when you speak of "the objects of the proliferations" we get close to another problem in "concept language", namely the systematic conflating of alleged mental phenomena (the momentary, mind-constructed phenomena that I have trouble finding and that Jon seems to accept but to dismiss) and the nonexistent shadow entities they seem to refer to - that they project in imagination. --------------------------------------- > …. > >James: The Buddha's path of liberation also includes being mindful > >of concepts and consequently not being lead astray by them. From SN > >131 "A Single Excellent Night": > > > >Let not a person revive the past > >Or on the future build his hopes; > >For the past has been left behind > >And the future has not been reached. > >Instead with insight let him see > >Each presently arisen state; 1212 > > > >1212: MA: He should contemplate each presently arisen state, just > >where it has arisen, by way of the seven contemplations of insight > >(insight into impermanence, suffering, non-self, disenchantment, > >dispassion, cessation, relinquishment). > > > >To my reading, "state" here doesn't necessarily apply to namas and > >rupas in there raw sense, but to any state. > … > S: the Pali for state is dhamma. Each dhamma (nama and rupa) to be seen > with insight (vipassanaa) at the present moment. > --------------------------------------- Howard: The problem with that reading, as I see it, Sarah, is that in the suttas the Buddha often uses 'dhamma' the way we informally use 'thing' in everyday English. That makes it not trivially determinable in which sense the Buddha is using 'dhamma' in a particular context. Sometime it is clear that he means khandhic elements, and sometimes not. -------------------------------------- > …. > >From the Honeyball > >Sutta one can see that mental proliferations (concepts) are often > >states that arise at the moment > …. > S: See in U.P. under ‘papanca’ (proliferations). They refer to lobha etc > accompanying thinking and perception (sanna). Concepts are the objects of > this. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Now here I see two problematical things going on. One of them is attempting to say something meaningful about a non-existent! If there are no such things as concepts, then there are no concepts that that are objects of anything. At best, this is just a (misleading) manner of speaking. If there are no concepts, then we cannot literally think about a concept or do anything else with a concept. The second of them is the conflating of an idea with what the idea allegely refers to. When one speaks of "concepts [which] are the objects of this" it is unclear whether these "objects" are mental phenomena or their referents or both. There really are some language problems here. Just to point to one: One can sit on a chair, but one cannot sit on a concept! ;-) Is a chair a concept? Are there chairs at all? Well, I say that there really are no chairs, but to speak of chairs in not meaningless - it is abbreviational, figurative language. A tougher question: Is there a *concept* of chair, and do we think of it. Jon seems to think so. I think not. I believe there are mental processes that occure which we *call* thinking of the concept of chair, but I do not think that introspection will ever reveal to us a single mental phenomenon that is "concept of chair". ---------------------------------------------------- Good points to raise and discuss further. Even when there is> > proliferation with wrong view, the dhammas themselves of thinking, marking > and wrong view are real and can be known. > > Thanks again for your comments. I also greatly appreciated a couple of > your posts with good insights to Nina, I think. Do you have CMA now, or > just access to the intro on line? I liked your questions and comments on > cetasikas. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41640 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:14am Subject: Re: Kamma and Buddhism (was Dhamma Threade 249/ old kamma used up Dear Joop and All (Nina, Kel, others), You are good at production of questions. This is what it should be. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Dear Htoo, Nina, Kel and all After Htoo's answers (and more than that, thanks !) the "I don't understand" got smaller, the "I understand more or less" has grown. Still the "I'm agnostic about it" exists. I have not understood all the details of Htoos answer, but the big lines are clear. I have five questions: four to you and one to myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your kind words. As the issues are not just simple it is usual for not grasping everything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's 5 questions: Q 1: 1 One of the principles that is to me the most important in Buddhism is that of 'anicca'. So the idea all phenomena are arising and falling away is evident to me. So why is kamma not just falling away? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 1: Nibbana is not a phenomenon. It does not arise and fall away. Names are not phenomena. They do not arise and they do not fall away. Likewise kamma is not a phenomenon. So kamma does not arise and fall away. As soon as cetana cetasika arises that cetana cetasika falls away. This is anicca or impermanent. We cannot stop cetana not to fall away and we cannot cause cetana to arise. Cetana is anatta. Cetana is a phenomenon. It does arise and fall away. When we cannot control it, when we cannot fulfil our wish of what cetana to be, it is not desirable and it is dukkha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's Q 1 continued: I sometimes got the impression the 'anatta' principle and the 'dukkha' principle are much more important in this DSG than the 'anicca' principle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All are important and this is my view that they are equally important. But what we need to be careful is the seriality that The Buddha taught on these 3 characteristics. It is anicca, dukkha, anatta. It is not in the order of a) anatta, dukkha, anicca b) anatta, anicca, dukkha c) dukkha, anicca, anatta d) dukkha, anatta, anicca e) anicca, anatta, dukkha Quote: Anattalakkhana Sutta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's Question 2: Q 2: 2 I was careful in my questions because I thought "where (of what 'material') is kamma made of" is one of the four 'unthinkables' (acinteyya), but I did not get the impression from your answers that that was so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I really did not have that impression on you. Because I felt like that you are investigating the dhammas and this is good for you and when others read these messages of your investigation they will be benefited from reading these messages. But if you touch the boundry of 'unthinkables'[acinteyya] I will let you know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q 2 continued: Still I don't know exactly what it is: a cetasika and not a cetasika , that what I understand of Htoo in answer # 5; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand that you will have to confuse. Kamma is inclusive of cetana and that is why you confused. Here I will extend a bit. a)From January to December b)From January through December a) may be from 31st January to 1st December where there will be only 10 months. b) includes the whole January and the whole December. So it will be from 1st January to 31st December and there will be 12 months. [Please correct if my English was wrong.] Kamma is inclusive from the arising of cetana [uppada khana of cetana or the arising sub-moment of cetana which exists in three sub-moments of 1.arising, 2.persisting, 3.falling away] till the end of cuti citta of arahats [that is end of the third sub-moment or the last sub- moment or disappearing sub-moment or bhanga-khana of arahatta cuti citta]. After that is we call ahosi kamma or ineffectual kamma. We here means those who left still in the samsara. Again, until that time there is potential that it may give rise to its effect. But this potential is not a phenomenon. Example you borrowed $ 1 M from the world bank [:-)]. a) You return it after 80 years and you die at 80 years after b) You return it after some years and you will be living 80 years c) You have not returned it and you are appraoching 79 years after d) You return it in the same year you borrow and are still living e) You return it in the next year and you are still living f) You have not returned yet and you die after 80 years d) is like achieving the result in the same life because of 1st javana citta's cetana. e) is like achieving the result in the next life because of 7th javana's cetana. a) is like the result that was obtained by Maha Moggallana. He in his past life killed his own fathre and mother who were blind and he was beaten to death and did parinibbana. b) is like your achievement right now, your status right now. Past kamma [your past actions] has given the result of current status and you are still living in the samsara until you leave. c) is like impending coming result soon or disappearing of potential soon. f) is like ahosi kamma. The bank cannot ask $ 1 M from your corpse after 80 years. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q 2 continued: and also it is something the javana cittas will create continously, a "potential": so an energy in my frame of reference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wording. You may think it as energy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: Nina quotes U Narada: "a special force", a force is not a nama, I think (and 'force' not exactly the same as 'energy' in physics). Perhaps the composition of kamma is really a mystery, an unthinkable? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 2: Here reach a point. If you are thinking of 'composition of kamma' I would say it is unthinkable and it is better not to think any more. Why? Thinking so does not help your liberation, and it does not help your further achievement or progress in dhamma study and it does not help any other aspect of life. When there is no benefit, it is the best not to talk on that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's Question 3: Q 3: 3 A technical question already asked to Kel. A lifetime kamma is much information, billions of bits. How can I imagine the medium on which all that information is stored: in a few cittas ? Is there a good (=modern) metaphore that can help my imagination, for example: is it a black hole ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 3: It is fine whether you like this current life time or beyond that. But examplewise The Buddha already gave a good metaphore. It is like the shade of yourself. Here you may still argue that when it is completely dark what happen to the shade of yourself or when it is completely lighten from all angles of your body what happen to the shade of yourself. When you are reborn as an asannaisatta the shade disappears because it is completely dark [as there is no citta]. When you attained arahatta magga nana and then you go into nirodha- samapatti or cessation-attainment then there is no shade because there is light from all angles of yourself and there is no way to appear any shade. Otherwise you always carry your shade along with you. When youself exists there is the shade. But the shade itself does not exist on its own. Do not try to separate your shade and yourself and it is unthinkable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's Question 4: 4 Two weeks ago I had a short discussion with Nina about het proposal I can comtemplate on the topic good/evil or kusala/akusala; the thought on that discussion came back in the question that arose now in my: how about the idea of innocence ? Is a child born innocent or with a backpack of kamma ? 'Innocence' and 'natural goodness' are not exactly the same concept but I think both do not fit in the Abhidhamma-system, is that correct ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 4: From the worldly perspective any child born is innocent whether their voice is ugly or sweet, whether they are black or white, whether they bear 2 legs or 1 leg or none. All are innocent. But abhidhamma has already told that birth itself is because of kamma and abhidhamma does not decide birth is innocent or not innocent because there is nothing except nama dhamma and rupa dhamma. When there are only nama dhamma and rupa dhamma, birth-child etc etc are not dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop's Question 5: Q 5: 5 The question to myself is: is it possible to be a Buddhist, even a Theravadin, without believing in the idea of rebirth. Kamma and rebirth are in the text so interwoven that it's possible to taljk about one withpout talking about the other. Still it's possible to understand and believe the working of kamma within ones lifetime. As I said to Kel: rebirth is one of the Theravada-ideas that do not resonate in me, like for example the anicca-principle does. Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer 5: I do not want to push you hard. If you do not believe rebirth, do not think that you do not believe 'rebirth'. It is still possible that you can discover the real dhammas. But as soon as you realize and discover the real dhamma with your own wisdom [as other would say direct knowledge] you will come to see that there is rebirth. So my kind advice will be 'do not think that you do not believe rebirth' and just leave it alone and tey to touch other dhammas. There are 62 kinds of wrong views. Leaving all except two, there are 2 wrong views or 2 kinds of miccha-ditthi. One is sassata-ditthi or 'the view of eternality'. This is quite common even among so called Buddhists. Even advanced learners of Buddhism may still have such wrong view. This view leads to believing that there are many rebirths and there are life after life. One life just jumps into another life when it dies and so on. This is easily illuded people who believe rebirth. Again there is another wrong view called uccheda-ditthi. Uccheda means 'cutting out'. This view believes that as soon as this current life dies there is nothing after death. So if you believe this second view of 'nothing after death' this is wrong view and thinking on such matter is done with vicikiccha or suspicious mind. This mind does give rise to rebirth in one of 4 woeful planes of existence and when living in any realm it gives rise to 'ahetukua akusala vipaka cittas' as results. There are 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas. 5 are panca-vinnana cittas arising at bad objects and further 2 are receiving of these cittas and investigating of these cittas and retention of these cittas that is thier objects. So when you do not have a clarity in rebirth [saddha in the dhamma that there is rebirth], do not think that and instead there are many things that you can do to improve yourself like investigating the very present moment right now and then at every moment. You must learn. You must be mindful. You must consistently persistent in producing effort to investigate all phenomena that arise at each moment. You should try to be calm and settle down your mind and finally you will definitely see 'A LIGHT'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41641 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2, oral tradition. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > This is very interesting. I also think that oral tradition is very reliable. > Think of the whole group doing it and the control they have if someone makes > a mistake. Generally people do not trust oral tradition. Can you tell us > more please about oral tradiiton and how it works? > Nina. > op 01-02-2005 19:08 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > All Buddha teachings were handed down only by oral citation until 4th > > Buddhists Council. > > > > Actually oral citations are much much more accurate than written > > equivalent. Because written scripts need voicing and timing of > > voicing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, This is my thought and opinion on oral citation. 1. It is based on voice-sound 2. It has exact spacing between words each other 3. It is reproducible as can be checked in other citers 4. It carries the whole undisturbed, unadapted, uncorrected But written scripts are just signs and they assign specific voicing for each sign or combination of signs or so. Example is 'often' the English word. I equally heard 'of-ten' and 'of-fen' from genuine native speakers that is not mixed blood or not born in other places and brought up in other places but in their own land. What I want to say is that written scripts may bear several different voicing while oral citation bears a single style if confirmed. I added 'if confirmed' because there may be a few variation among groups of disciples even though the contents are essentially the same. The person who I met reproduced the same story with exact wording several times that is over many years say about 50 years. The reason of the 5th Buddhist Council was to confirm these voicing and to standardise to one. Example the voice sound for even 'Bhagava' may a bit vary like 1. `Bhagava 2. Bhaga`va 3. Bha`gava With respect, Htoo Naing 41642 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:38am Subject: Re: for James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Htoo - > > You have offered some leading questions for further discussion. > > H: > There are times that suttas and abhidhamma should not mix. > > Example when you offer something to someone you should just offer > > conventionally. Otherwise??? > > > > T: Very good, friend. Please tell us about the examples you had in > mind. Otherwise, what? > > H: > > Nama and dhamma is holding rupa and then nama > > and rupa is offering rupa to nama and rupa. > > > > Do you recognize any sense in above sentence? > > > > T: Are you referring to a looping-back part of the Dependent > Origination : Vinnana-paccaya nama-rupam; nama-rupa-paccaya > vinnanam, or are you talking about a citta-vithi during meditation? > > Forgive my Abhidhamma inadequacy. (: =|) > > Warm regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, What I said was simple thing. Offering is a good act. It is dana. When it is done just do as it is. But when one is thinking like 'I who is a combination of 5 khandhas is holding this things which is rupa to that person who is a combination of nama and rupa' then he is just meditating or thinking. There are 3 kinds of kusala. One is dana, another is sila and the third is bhavana. The example showed mixing up of dana and bhavana. While bhavana mainly involve mind only dana involve body, speech, and mind. If these 3 or at least 2 (body+mind or speech+mind) are disrupted then it is not as good as pure dana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41643 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Whether The Buddha spoke Pali or not > > the 4th Buddhists Council recorded the teachings in Sanskript, > Pali, > >========== > Dear Htoo, > I never knew this. Do you have the reference about the bhikkhus > reciting the teachings in Sanskrit. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, I did not say 'the bhikkhus reciteing the teachings in Sanskrit'. I said 'recorded in Sanskrit'. There is no Pali writing at all but teachings were recited in Pali. With respect, Htoo Naing 41644 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hi, Htoo, Sarah, > > I think the 'mandha puggala or less intelligent and if tikkha puggala or > intelligent person' has to do with which roots are there at relinking... > so the science wiz might have all three of the good roots, but more or > less waste them feeding them math or stars or whatever instead of Dhamma. > Anyway, this root business is mentioned in the SPD... if I remember right, > with the same conclusion: who knows their roots. > > peace, > connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, Sarah and All, I do not agree. Everyone who are born as their last life are born with tihetuka patisandhi citta or 3-rooted-linking-consciousness. These 3 roots are alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, and amoha or pannindriya cetasika. While both mandha and tikkha attain arahatta magga nana there is not much difference. But I have explained in detail what 'mandha' and what 'tikkha' are like. You seemed to mean 'rebirth with dvihetuka citta' or double-rooted consciousness that is with only alobha and adosa without panna. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41645 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: >Hi Jon, > >I'm not following you; can you elaborate? It might be better to say a >sign _is_ an error and it arises according to conditions. I probably >should have said 'interpretation of signs' is just a sequence of signs >that arises according to conditions. There is no interpreter. > > Signs are mental creations used to represent thing; they are used to designate how things are interpreted. As I use the term sign, it is not something that could *be interpreted*. So you and I may be at cross purposes here. Perhaps an example of what you have in mind would help. Jon 41646 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:53am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Hi, Htoo, Kel, Joop, > What about ahosi kamma? Wouldn't that be kind of a 'fallen away' kind? > I'm thinking about the strength of the kamma as it relates to which javana > and thought the weakest kamma might 'die off' at the end of the life-span > if it hadn't come to fruition by then. Or does it not 'fall away' unless > and until parinibbana? I also thought if someone became sotapanna, there > wouldn't be some conditions arising anymore for certain results, but I > guess the kamma could just play out some other way than it would have > otherwise. Does that make sense? > peace, > connie - with head and foot ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, Please see the detail discussion between Joop and me. Sotapannahood does not abloish kamma. Even arahathood does not abolish kamma. See the example of 'hungry arahat'. Or the example of Maha Moggallana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41647 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > wrote: > > > > > > Whether The Buddha spoke Pali or not > > > the 4th Buddhists Council recorded the teachings in Sanskript, > > Pali, > > >========== > > Dear Htoo, > > I never knew this. Do you have the reference about the bhikkhus > > reciting the teachings in Sanskrit. > > Robertk > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Robert K, > > I did not say 'the bhikkhus reciteing the teachings in Sanskrit'. I > said 'recorded in Sanskrit'. There is no Pali writing at all but > teachings were recited in Pali. ========= Thanks Htoo, Do you know why they recorded the teachings in Sanskrit? I was surprised. Robertk 41648 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Whether The Buddha spoke Pali or not > > > > the 4th Buddhists Council recorded the teachings in Sanskript, > > > Pali, > > > >========== > > > Dear Htoo, > > > I never knew this. Do you have the reference about the bhikkhus > > > reciting the teachings in Sanskrit. > > > Robertk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > Dear Robert K, > > > > I did not say 'the bhikkhus reciteing the teachings in Sanskrit'. > I > > said 'recorded in Sanskrit'. There is no Pali writing at all but > > teachings were recited in Pali. > ========= > Thanks Htoo, > Do you know why they recorded the teachings in Sanskrit? I was > surprised. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, To be honest I have no idea. But I have a thought that some commentaries were in Sanskrit even though I am not sure. With respect, Htoo Naing 41649 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > The *experienced* object (*as* experienced object) was created at the >moment of its being experienced, with the object and the awareness of it >co-arising. > Well now you are carefully defining your use of terms. What you are saying is that the object was not an object before it was experienced, and in that sense it is created only at the moment of its being experienced. So to you 'created' means something like 'comes to be the object of experience/consciousness'. There still remains the question of whether the dhamma that is the object of experience arose before it became the object of that moment of consciousness. This is relevant to the distinction between dhammas and concepts, as I see it. Jon 41650 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:12am Subject: Re: Adapted Buddhisms and Second - Third - Fourth Vehicle --- In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Estes wrote: hello htootintnaing, how is it going? lemme now k? tonka, jen htootintnaing wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, Buddhism was founded by The Buddha Gotama. Actually it is not just an ism. The Buddha Gotama preached really achievable things and He preached how to be liberated from the round of birth-rebirth-cycle or samsara. Actually 'Buddhism' the word is given by others. As there was only one and a single Buddha in His sasana or teachings, there cannot be many many Buddhisms. But some were not happy with the teachings and they tried to adapt the teachings and the vinaya or bhikkhu rules. Whether or not adapted, dhammas work in line with their own characteristics. 41651 From: Ken O Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas'- Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Hi Nina and Sarah A Sujin is right manodvaravajjana is just a mind door adverting, it is ahetu, kusala and akusala only happens in javana process, that is why kamma for the next rebirth also arise until it is completely cut off by enlightement. Yoniso can be said the function of two cetasikas, the manisikara as well as panna. When cetasika arise in a kusala citta, so many cetasika arise, it is like a broil, I think only Buddha and some other Arahants could pinpoint them but that also must be in another thought process because when it is arisen, the object is not the kusala javana cittas but the object of the kusala javana cittas that it is paying attention to as citta cannot cognize itself. The arisen of kusala citta must be condition by accumulations just like the arisen of akusala citta must be conditioned by latency. Ken O 41652 From: Ken O Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: for James Hi Tep That is not the complete picture. When a it is say the four jhanas it is in reference to supramundane jhanas and not those we think as in mundane jhanas. Supramundane jhanas will happen to all who attain enlightement be it the disciple follow the dry insightor path. Ken O 41653 From: Ken O Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon In fact, all volitions that are base on kusala roots are dana by itself if one consider dana as alobha. Why is there so much debate about dana when it is implicitly implied ;-). Cheers Ken O 41654 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:31am Subject: Dhamma Thread (253) Dear Dhamma Friends, Unlike 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existence and 1 manussa bhumi or human realm all 6 deva realms have a stable lifespan for each bhumi or realm. In catu-maha-rajika deva bhumi, devas have a lifespan of 500 deva- years which is roughly equivalent to 9 million human years nad it sounds like that 50 human years is just a day in deva realm. That is why one deva asked a devi [female deva or god] where she went for the whole day while actually that devi died in deva realm and she was reborn in human realm and lived there for a human lifespan and again reborn in deva realm as a devi and being the wife of that same deva. Tavatimsaa deva realm's devas live four times the lifespan of catumarajika deva realm's devas and again yaamaa devas live 4 times taavatimsa devas and tusitaa devas live 4 times yaamaa devas. Nimmanarati devas live 4 times tusitaa devas and paranimmita- vassavati devas live 4 times nimmanarati devas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41655 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Does death as a meditation object refer to contemplations on > corpses etc or does it have to do with death as a release of the > khandas. When we die the conditioned factors that we have clung to > with such desperation through that lifetime vanish. What was Phil is > no longer, just like that. Is it that kind of thing, or is it more > concrete, reflecting on the worm-food left behind? > > > ========== Dear Phil, Just got back from an Onsen, nice soaking outside while the snow came down lightly. And as good as any time to contemplate that death can happen at any moment- Contemplation of death goes together with contemplation of anatta and then it is wonderfully calming and encouraging. Death is of three types - momentary (khanika) that is happening every instant, conventional - when we die to this human life. And the final death of the arahant when there is no more rebirth. With maranasati we are talking about the death which is waiting at the end of this brief human life, maybe tommorow or tonight. It goes together intimately with understanding the aggregates and khandhas because there is no self who dies, and the khandhas are like murderers waiting for their chance. It is a skill that needs time and practice and is not something to force but if you have the interest you may find it a theme that is refuge in times of trouble and a restrainer in times of exhilaration. Robertk 41656 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread (254) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence or 31 bhumis. They are 4 apaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existence, 1 manussa bhumi or 1 human realm, 6 deva bhumis or 6 deva realm. These 11 bhumis or 11 realms are also known as sensuous planes of existence or sensuous sphere. There left 20 realms or 20 planes of existence or 20 bhumis. All these 20 are called brahma bhumis. While 6 deva realms are 'kama- deva' there 20 bhumis are for brahma-deva or celestiel being of fine material realms and non-material realms. Or simply they are called brahma bhumis or brahma realms. No one built these 20 brahma bhumis but they are there according to the result or vipaka of those beings concerned. If someone with jhana dies in jhana they will be reborn in one of these 20 brahma realms according to their specific jhana. But if someone with jhana dies not in jhana but in other kama-thoughts then they will be reborn in kama- bhumis or sensuous planes. When these things are discussed it would sound like unreal. Dhamma has its own attributes and they can be proved. One divine-eyes or deva-cakkhu (eyes of deva or god) or dibba-cakkhu develops and if these realms are targeted they all can be known direct first-hand knowledge. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41657 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 7:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread (255) Dear Dhamma Friends, There have been introduced 4 of 4-set or catu-catukka in the previous posts. These 4 of 4-set are 1. 4 kinds of patisandhi [rebirth] 2. 4 kinds of bhumi [realm] 3. 4 kinds of kamma [kamma] 4. 4 kinds of maranuppatti [death] 4 kinds of rebirth are called 'patisandhi catukka'. 4 kinds of bhumi is called 'bhumi catukka'. 4 kinds of kamma is caled 'kamma catukka'. 4 kinds of death is called 'maranuppatti catukka'. Catu means '4' or 'four' or cardinal number. Catuttha means 'fourth' '4th' that is 4 in ordinal number or 4 in terms of order. Catukka means 'things that have 4 as number'. Patisandhi is made up of 'pati' and 'sandhi'. Pati means 'again' 'another time' and sandhi means 'linking' 'joining' 'sticking'. Patisandhi overall means 'linking of the past life cuti citta with the 1st bhavanga citta of current life' and it is rebirth-consciousness. Patisandhi also means 'rebirth'. Patisandhi-catukka means 'a set of 4 kinds of patisandhi or 4 kinds of rebirth'. These 4 kinds of rebirth are 1.apaya patisandhi or woeful rebirths, 2.kama-sugati patisandhi or profitable sensuous rebirths, 3.rupa patisandhi or fine material rebirths, and 4. arupa patisandhi or non-material rebirth. Bhumi-catukka means 4 kinds of bhumis or realms. They are 1.apaya bhumis or woeful realms, 2.kama-sugati bhumis or profitable sensuous realms, 3.rupa bhumis or fine material realms, and 4.arupa bhumis or non-material realms. Bhuta means 'great' 'huge' 'large'. 'i' is related to place. Bhumi means where beings dwell. Bhummi means earth or ground but bhumi means 'place for dependence of large collection of beings or so'. Kamma means 'potential generated by actions of unenlightened beings'. Karaka means 'do' 'act' 'perform'. Kamma means 'well acted' 'well performed' 'well done' and this means already performed 'the actions'. So kamma are the potentials that is related with 'already done actions'. 4 kinds of kamma will later be discussed. Marana-uppatti or maranuppatti means 'occurance of death' 'arising of even of death' or simply 'death'. Marana means 'death' while maraka means 'kill'. Uppatti means 'arising' 'appearing' 'coming into existence'. Maranuppatti means 'coming into the state of death'. There are 4 kinds of such death and they will also be discussed later. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41658 From: Ken O Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Larry > I follow your reasoning and agree with most of it, but I don't > think this sutta is talking about sanna vipallasa. Rather, it is talking about identifying with sanna. This is a different, but related issue. k: Interesting when you used the statement identifying with sanna. In what identified with sanna then? How do you term kusala indentification or akusala ones? > As I see it the question is, is there misperception in a kusala > citta process that arises without panna. I would say there is, but I agree that it does make sense to say sanna vipallasa only arises in an akusala process. k: During kusala behavour it is not possible for misperception of kusala behaviour as during that time there arise alobha and amoha. But after a kusala behaviour it is possible as one latency lies dormant in kusala behaviour. A misperception usually occurs to wrong view that self is permanent after one dead one gain eternal live in heaven, or one feels a need to do good things in order to have a better kamma next time etc. It is only through the knowledge of Buddha dhamma (that is anatta) one will be liberated. Just like Buddha in one of his past live teach people to practise the four immeasurable and these people are all born in the brahams, but Buddha declared that his teachings at that time is flaw as it does not lead to a cessation of birth. Ken O 41659 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/2/05 9:13:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > The *experienced* object (*as* experienced object) was created at the > >moment of its being experienced, with the object and the awareness of it > >co-arising. > > > > Well now you are carefully defining your use of terms. What you are > saying is that the object was not an object before it was experienced, > and in that sense it is created only at the moment of its being > experienced. So to you 'created' means something like 'comes to be the > object of experience/consciousness'. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, because I am explicitly speaking of the phenomenological object. That is why I made the point of saying "experienced object (as experienced object)". I am not speaking of an alleged something underlying the experienced object. That may or may not exist, and if it does, it may or may not exist prior to the experienced object. Experienced hardness and the experiencing of it are co-occuring and mutually dependent. An alleged unexperienced hardness, if it exists, is simply unknown. I am not addressing such a thing-in-itself, as it is only the experiential object that is experienced. I am not dealing with ontological inference, but with experience. ----------------------------------------- > > There still remains the question of whether the dhamma that is the > object of experience arose before it became the object of that moment of > consciousness. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: The phenomenological object exists *only* as object of experience. As far as any other sort of object is concerned, there is no knowing of such if it exists at all. Nyanaponika Thera, in his Abhidhamma Studies, as Bhikkhu Bodhi points out, considers Abhidhamma, as philosophy, to fall under phenomenology rather than ontology. In any case, I am discussing only phenomenological (experiential) objects. ----------------------------------------- This is relevant to the distinction between dhammas and > > concepts, as I see it. > > -------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. I commented on that in a recent post. Your take on concepts matches my take on all dhammas, and as far as concepts are concerned, I am coming to the point of view that "there ain't no such things - not really!" The "tree concept" as idea, just isn't findable upon introspection; and trees are conventionally "encountered", but not actually encountered - we merely think we encounter trees. It is just a matter of thinking and imagining interspersed with seeing, touching, recognizing etc. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41660 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 9:20am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Dear Connie, Please see the detail discussion between Joop and me. Sotapannahood does not abloish kamma. Even arahathood does not abolish kamma. See the example of 'hungry arahat'. Or the example of Maha Moggallana. With Metta, Htoo Naing ======== Dear Htoo, Yes, I was thinking of Maha Moggallana! But I thought that was kamma involving mistreating his parents and might be especially strong because of that. Of course, I would never know what kammas are involved in what result for me in this life-time... maybe better to say it would always be beyond my range and there's no point speculating. Nor would I have any way of knowing that certain kammas would become ahosi or when, so it is just as well to think I will be 'repaid in full' for everything. I read where you were talking about ahosi kamma being like the unpaid loan after death, but I still don't know: would you say that yes, it only becomes ahosi kamma after parinibbana or yes, some kamma will more or less 'die' at the end of each life-time? :) Or would you say something else I am missing? thank you, connie 41662 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Thanks, Htoo - my misunderstanding and yes, I was thinking about the double-rooted consciousness and missing your point that both the mandha and tikkha attain arahatta magga nana. metta, connie 41663 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:31am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Dear Connie, > > Please see the detail discussion between Joop and me. Sotapannahood > does not abloish kamma. Even arahathood does not abolish kamma. See > the example of 'hungry arahat'. Or the example of Maha Moggallana. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > ======== > Dear Htoo, > > Yes, I was thinking of Maha Moggallana! But I thought that was kamma > involving mistreating his parents and might be especially strong because > of that. Of course, I would never know what kammas are involved in what > result for me in this life-time... maybe better to say it would always be > beyond my range and there's no point speculating. Nor would I have any > way of knowing that certain kammas would become ahosi or when, so it is > just as well to think I will be 'repaid in full' for everything. I read > where you were talking about ahosi kamma being like the unpaid loan after > death, but I still don't know: would you say that yes, it only becomes > ahosi kamma after parinibbana or yes, some kamma will more or less 'die' > at the end of each life-time? :) Or would you say something else I am > missing? > > thank you, > connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, Those kamma that do not extend into next life or those kamma that end as soon as a life end is called 'dittha dhamma vedaniiya kamma'. Dittha means 'objectively' 'right' 'without delay'. Vedana means feeling and vedaniiya means 'causing feeling'. This kamma cause 'effects' in the current life where kamma are committed. As soon as this life ends, all those kamma also end and they do not follow any more. At that particular time all those kamma ended are also called ahosi kamma or ineffectual kamma. This is because the kamma was created by the weakest javana cetana. That is those kamma are created by 1st javana citta. There are 7 javana cittas in a vithi vara. As it is the first cetana in that 1st javana is not as strong as following 6 javana cetanas. That is why the result cannot follow next life and end as ahosi kamma or unpaid debt-kamma. But the follwing javana cittas are being conditioned by the 1st javana citta with a condition or paccaya called asevana paccaya or 'repeatition condition'. So they are strong and they follow as long as their debt have not been return. But when arahatta cuti citta arises all these kamma have to end and they become ahosi kamma. This is like dead person cannot sign any check any more to pay his debt. Again the last javana citta or 7th javana citta is also weak as compared to the middle 5 javana citta even though it is stronger than the 1st. Again the effect cannot extend to the third life that is at the end of second life kamma generated by 7th javana cetana in defined life end and they all become ahosi kamma. But the middle 5 javana cetana follow each and every citta as a shade as long as they have not gain their credit back. That is why even The Buddha could not avoid these vipaka dhamma (debt). The Buddha Gotama did have back-ache and He had to take a rest after long preaching when He delegate Sariputta Thera to continue His current preaching. The Buddha Gotama did have head-ache and that was also viapaka or giving back all His debt. Even when He was severely ill with passing bloody diarrhoea He became thirsty and when Ananda went to a river and took water for drinking all the water was clouded. Ananda reported and this happen three times and Bhagava saw that it was His vipaka of clouding of drinking water for His cow-mother when He was a small cow-son. Bhagava instructed Anana to take that water. So Ananda took the clouded water. Here Ananda was shocked and he greatly admired Bhagava that as soon as the clouded water was taken it was clear in the bowl and he took the water to The Bhagava. This is the result of middle 5 javana cetana and even The Buddha could not avoid vipaka. Among three rounds or 3 vatta, kilesa vatta has stopped because Bhagava eradicated all defilements. Kamma vatta also stopped because Bhagava had attained arahatta magga nana and all his javana cittas are kiriya javana cittas and they do not carry kamma effect to the next citta and kamma vatta or round of kamma also stopped. But round of vipaka cannot be stopped even with His greatest power. But as soon as cuti citta arises in any arahat including The Buddha, all existing kamma have to end and they all become ahosi kamma. It is better not to think all the debt. Because there are countless life and it is not in our range of knowledge. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 41664 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:38am Subject: Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Thanks, Htoo - my misunderstanding and yes, I was thinking about the > double-rooted consciousness and missing your point that both the mandha > and tikkha attain arahatta magga nana. > metta, > connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, It is a matter of wording. Mandha originally means 'stupid' 'unintelligent' and it may well be ahetuka sugati patisandhi (rootless profitable rebirth), and dvihetuka sugati patisandhi (double-rooted profitable rebirth). But in the setting of magga-vithi vara it is said that mandha can only take 2 phala while tikkha can take 3 phala cittas. Because he can pass parikamma mahakusala citta without arising and so the left moment is filled by 3rd phala citta after. Again tikkha originally means 'very intelligent' or 'intelligent'. But there are current scientists who clearly understand all their scientific rules and they can apply these rules into application. But they may well be mandha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41665 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi Larry, op 01-02-2005 15:36 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: >> In the sutta reference to contact being like small creatures > nibbling on >> the flesh of a hideless cow (SNII,12), it is interesting to compare > this >> to consciousness being like a man being pierced by 300 arrows, in > the >> same sutta. This suggests to me that contact is preliminary or > subtle >> consciousness and consciousness is full blown consciousness. Does >> contact only apply to consciousness and feeling or does it apply to > all >> the cetasikas that arise? > > One of the reasons I made this association is because in a mind-door > process the object isn't present, even if the object is a memory. How > does contact function in a mind-door process? N: Cittas arising in a mind-door process also experience an object, whatever that may be. Citta does not arise without experiencing an object. That object may be rupa that has just fallen away, such as visible object, or another citta such as seeing that arose before, or a concept such as a chair. At every moment citta needs the assistance of contact which contacts the object so that it can cognize that object. We cannot pinpoint the reality of contact, in fact we know very little about the operating of citta and its accompanying cetasikas. Whatever we learn helps us to see more conditions for citta and cetasikas so that we understand at least intellectually the truth of impermanence and anatta. Nina. P.S. There is no Tiika to Vis. XIV, 136, since these cetasikas were treated earlier. The Tiika continues with 137, viriya. But if you like I can elaborate on 136, quoting the Expositor. 41666 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas'-manasikara Dear Sarah, Thank you for your observations and discussion. op 01-02-2005 13:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...:> > > My question to K.Sujin was whether *yoniso/ayoniso* manasikara > (wise/unwise attention) referred to: > > a) manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) preceding > kusala/akusala cittas > b) the cetasika, manasikara in the javana process > c) a combination of cittas and cetasikas. > ... > KS: when kusala citta has arisen, yoniso manasikara must accompany it > (also for ayoniso). If it’s yoniso’ it has to be kusala.' > ... > S: So we cannot say it’s the manodvaravajjana citta? > ... > KS: We can say its yoniso’ when it’s the same mano dvara (mind > door)series including the preceding manodvaravajjana citta, but yoniso > must be kusala manasikara accompanying the citta.’ > ... > She then stressed the simile about the foolish attendant who doesn’t know > anything about the greatness of the king, referring to the > manodvaravajjana citta. Its function, she said, is just to precede the > javanas which arise by pakatupanissaya (natural decisive support > condition). N: As I read it Kh Sujin is still speaking about the manodvaaravajjana citta, not the cetasika. S: In other words, as I understand, the kusala and akusala states including > yoniso and ayoniso manasikara, arise because of accumulations, not because > of this one citta which precedes it. > ... > KS: That’s all. Yoniso must refer to kusala. Manodvaravajjana citta > doesn’t know anything about kusala or akusala. It’s ahetuka citta, quite > different from kusala. It’s just one citta, not accompanied by any > wholesome cetasikas. It’s just a condition indirectly for yoniso or > ayoniso. So it can be called yoniso condition, but the main condition is > pakatupanissaya.’ N: Manodvaravajjana citta conditions the following javanacitta by contiguity condition, and kusala citta or akusala citta is also conditioned by natural strong dependence-condition, one's accumulated kusala or akusala, as you also summarized at the end. As to the word determining consciousness, votthapanacitta (which is actually the manodvaravajjana citta in the sense-door process), this determining is different from what we mean in conventional language by determining or deciding. It is one short moment. It is kiriyacitta, not kusala citta nor akusala citta. I have more on MP3: S: So yoniso and ayoniso manasikara must refer to the cetasika?’ > ... > KS: That’s what I understand. But when there’s awareness, we cannot > pinpoint cittas and cetasikas.’ N: I have a personal observation for what it is worth (Mike would say: my two cent's worth). It is not so important. I have not found any text where it is said black on white: yoniso manasikaara is the cetasika that is kusala. Certainly, it performs its function in the wholesome way, in joining the accompanying nama dhammas on the object, but there are also sati, kusala cetana, viriya, there are alobha, adosa, and if the citta is accompanied by paññaa, paññaa plays a very important part. I also noticed that manasikara is not even specifically mentioned in the Dhammasangani when all accompanying cetasikas of mahaa-kusala citta with pañña are summed up, it is among the or-what-so-evers, yevapannakas. I find it clear that we cannot separate or single out manasikara cetasika, we cannot pinpoint citta and cetasikas, as Kh Sujin said. Anyway, I know very little about how they all operate. I went through all the texts in the Dispeller, under: bringing to mind. This may be of interest. Book of Analysis, p. 483, and the explanation of Dispeller II, p. 260: about wrong adverting. I read about abandoning through wise bringing to mind, about the development of the enlightenment factors through wise attention. Disp. I, 334: abandoning through wise attention. Only the cetasika? I would say kusala citta with paññaa. And of course also kusala manasikara performs its function. Disp. I, p. 342, about the development of the enlightenment factors. Is the cetasika manasikara much practised? I do not think so. Personally I am inclined not to give too much credit here to manasikaara cetasika, more to paññaa. Reading all those texts I am inclined to think that yoniso manasikara refers to the kusala javana cittas, ayoniso manasikara to the akusala javana cittas. The manodvaaravajjana citta itself is called manasikaara in the sense of javana patipadaka (-ka denotes an action). But before I realize it I get lost in terms instead of developing understanding of characteristics, in order to know the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. Nina. 41667 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India , metta. Dear Sarah, op 01-02-2005 10:17 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > In the Gangtok garden discussion I mentioned last time, just this point > came up. Nina, I think it was, mentioned the difficulties we’d all > experienced and chatted about while we were sitting on long bus rides. > K.Sujin just interrupted and asked:what about now?’. N: I like your observations. S: We have to become more and more detached from places, people, special > routines and so on as being more suitable too, otherwise there will never > be the development of awareness and understanding of present realities. (snip) > It reminds me of an occasion a while back when I started to ask K.Sujin > about developing metta. She just jumped in before the question was > finished with clinging to self’. It was the best bitter medicine at the > time. She meant that just by asking the question, it was apparent that it > was motivated by attachment and she was right of course. N: We want the self to be so good. But I would like to add something for those who do not know Kh Sujin: she wrote books on Metta (being the foot of the world), on the ten bases of wholesome deeds, on the perfections. Some peop[le may htink that she does not encourage kusala. She said to me: if you do not think of yourself you are more attentive to others. True we cling less to our own comfort, are not lazy to help others. This needs a degree of renunciation. S: She also stressed at this time about developing wise attention of visible > object and other realities. Viriya (right effort) is there already. N: Here we have it again, should manasikara cetasika be developed or kusala citta with paññaa? Nina. 41668 From: nina Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:52am Subject: Pilgrimage India, 4 d Pilgrimage India, 4 d We cling to insignificant dhammas that do not last, not even a splitsecond. It is beneficial to learn their true nature of anattå, non-self. When we do not cling to people and are not absorbed in situations there are more opportunities for the Brahma vihåras of mettå, karuna (compassion), muditå (sympathetic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity). When mettå arises, we do not expect kindness from other people. If they do not like our generosity or help, we should not mind. Understanding of realities is the foremost condition of seeing the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala, and it helps us not to take kusala and akusala for self. When there is awareness and right understanding we are not troubled by any situation. We can understand any situation, as only citta, cetasika (mental factors accompanying citta) and rúpa (physical phenomena). The more we read and consider the teachings, the more we come to understand that dhammas arise because of their own conditions, that they are anattå. We cling to mettå and take it for ³my mettå², but it should be understood as a conditioned dhamma. If we had not heard about the characteristic of true mettå we could not think about it or develop it. Acharn Sujin had arranged for the giving of food to beggar children outside the gates of the Jeta Grove. All the children lined up very peacefully and we shared out the packedges of food that were brought from Thailand. This was a happy occasion to develop mettå and dåna naturally and spontaneously. When mettå arises, there are no conditions for aversion about other people¹s contrarious behaviour, we do not harm or hurt others, but we see them as true friends. The four Brahma Vihåras are the fundamentals of a peaceful society. We see many poor people in India and instead of aversion about their condition there can be compassion and also equanimity. Equanimity, upekkhå, is another brahma vihåra. This is not indifferent feeling but it is the sobhana cetasika evenmindedness, tatramajjhattatå. We are not always able to help other people who suffer from a loss of dear ones or a calamity. When we remember that nobody can prevent kamma from producing its appropriate result, kusala citta arises instead of aversion. When we have anxiety because of the sorrowful events that occur in the world, we should remember that whatever happens is conditioned. Kusala citta can motivate us to speak consoling words with kindness and compassion. We may have worry and anxiety about someone else¹s health, but understanding of the truth of kamma and vipåka can condition evenmindedness instead of anxiety. Mettå and upekkhå are also qualities that are perfections, påramís. Each time we are on pilgrimage in India, we reflect on the perfections the Buddha had to accumulate during countless lives before he became the Sammåsambuddha. The perfections are an unique, unsurpassed, unequalled set of moral and spiritual ideas, covering all aspects of human behaviour. Acharn Sujin said that it is of no use to cling to the names of the perfections, but that all of them have to be developed at this moment. When there is an opportunity for kusala through body, speech or mind, we should not delay the performance of kusala and at such moments the perfections are developing. ****** Nina 41669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage India 4 c lobha conditions anger Hello Phil, op 02-02-2005 01:01 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:> > You say anger "is conditioned by lobha" .. "when things are not the > way we would like them to be" we have aversion. Is there lobha > preceding the dosa, a moment of clinging to the way you would like > things to be preceding the aversion in the citta processes? Say a > beggar makes you stumble. Is there a moment of lobha for the way you > would like things to be before there is aversion, or is the aversion > conditioned by lobha in a less proximate, less direct way? N: This is hard to say. We have accumulated lobha and many times it arises. I want to walk in comfort and safety, and already lobha conditions the moving of my feet. Any posture I assume is likely to be motivated by lobha. Often it is not accompanied by pleasant feeling but by indifferent feeling. In fact, it was dark where I went and I had stayed behind, and then a sudden fright, I was afraid to fall down. He was crawling and pushing my leg. I do not see so well in the dark. I cannot pinpoint when exactly lobha arises, but it is always latent, ready to condition akusala citta. Ignorance and clinging make the cycle of life continue. In an earlier post you were wondering about the many names for lobha, like craving, tanhaa, etc. They are all lobha cetasika but different aspects. I conclude with Dhammapada, vs 212: < Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. For him who is free from affection there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him?> Nina. 41670 From: nina Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:52am Subject: Vis. XIV, 135 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 135 and Tiika 135. (ii) It wills (cetayati), thus it is 'volition' (cetanaa); it collects, is the meaning. N: As to the expression, it collects, abhisandahati, this means, it puts together, prepares. It coordinates the accompanying dhammas on the object (Vis. Ch XI, note 2). As we read, with reference to Vis. 132 in T.A. (p. 56) which follows the Expositor: < Volition (cetanaa) is what wills; it directs itself and associated dhammas onto the object, or it achieves the task of forming what it formed.> Text Vis: Its characteristic is the state of willing. N: The Tiika explains, Text Vis: Its function is to accumulate. It is manifested as coordinating. It accomplishes its own and others' functions, as a senior pupil, a headcarpenter, etc., do. N: The Tiika explains that it arranges (vicaara.na.m, sa.mvidhaana.m) and that while it occurs as accumulating it is engaged with its own task and also with the task of all other accompanying dhammas. N: The Tiika elaborates: the senior pupil, while it exhorts the other pupils to recite he also recites. When the chief carpenter undertakes his carpentry work, also the others are doing it. Vis. text: But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of associated states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so on. N: The Tiika explains that it is concerned with its own work and that of others. As to the word Œdriving¹, in Pali the word ussahana is used. Ussaha implies effort or energy. The Tiika explains that here this word is not used in connection with viriya or effort, but that it refers to accumulation. The Expositor (p. p. 148) states:< It has directing as manifestation. It arises directing associated states, like the chief disciple, the chief carpenter, etc., who fulfill their own and others¹ duries.... It is also evident that it arises by causing associated states to be energetic in such things as recollecting an urgent work, and so forth.> The proximate cause is not mentioned, but we read in Vis. XIV, 132, about the proximate cause of the khandha of formations: Volition is sankhaarakkhandha and it cannot arise without the other three naama-khandhas, citta, feeling, saññaa and the accompanying cetasikas of sankhaarakkhandha. Remark: Volition is different from what we mean by Œwill¹ in conventional language. The meaning of volition will be clearer when we remember that it can be of four jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. We are inclined to have an idea of Œmy will power¹, but volition arises because of conditions and then falls away immediately. It is different all the time, and it is beyond control. Reviewing the beginning of the khandha of formations: There is a connection or combination of all these cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha. Cetanaa is the chief, but when it motivates a deed, sobhana cetasikas or akusala cetasikas, and also the universals and particulars, they all cooperate in performing a deed that can bring result later on. Cetana coordinates them all. We should not forget that such a combination is very momentary. There is constant change. All the time there are different combinations. The conditions have to be just right for such or such combination. The Dhammasangani states with regard to the first type of mahaa-kusala citta of the sensesphere: and then sums up the accompanying cetasikas. The Expositor (p. 76) explains the word samaya as time, occasion, concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result: We cling to the idea of our own will that can direct dhammas, but this is not according to reality. Volition, be it wholesome, unwholesome or indeterminate, is only a conditioned element. *** Nina. 41671 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 11:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sahajata Paccaya and mutuality condition. Dear Sara, I have typed up to nissaya paccaya or dependent condition in the pages of 'Patthana Dhamma'. So far there have been 74 pages. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Htoo, Nina & Steve, I thought your discussion on these conditions was very helpful. A good post from Htoo and excellent qus from Stever and clarifications from Nina. Look forward to more joint efforts. I agree with Nina, U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations (PTS)is an extremely helpful book and not too difficult to follow at all. Metta, Sarah 41672 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: for James Hi Friend Ken O. - Thank you for making a comment about the four jhanas. It all started with Connie's mail : From the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary summary ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths. ... ... Right concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta system." T (message #41590): This commentary summary is very concise and should be read over several times so that confusions concerning the true meanings of the Path factors will be put to rest. Ken O. (message #41652): That is not the complete picture. When it says the four jhanas, it is in reference to supramundane jhanas, and not those we think as mundane jhanas. Supramundane jhanas will happen to all who attain enlightenment, be it the disciple following the dry insightor path (or not). T: Please forgive me for editing your message in order to make it a little bit more understandable. Look, Ken, this commentary summary does not need any correction, addition, or explanation beyond what it is. In my opinion, it is "the complete picture". Indeed, Right Concentration is well defined in the Suttanta Pitaka, e.g. Maha- satipatthana Sutta [DN 22] in terms of the four jhanas. And it clearly is supramundane(lokuttara). "And what, bhikkhus, is Right Concentration? Here (in this teaching), bhikkhus, a bhikkhu being detached from sensual desire and unwholesome states attains and dwells in the first jhana which has vitakka and vicara; and rapture (piti) and sukha born of detachment (from the hindrances). With the subsiding of vitakka and vicara, a bhikkhu attains and dwells in the second jhana, with internal tranquility and one-pointedness of mind, without vitakka and vicara, but with rapture and sukha born of concentration. Being without rapture, a bhikkhu dwells in equanimity with mindfulness and clear understanding, and experiences sukha in mind and body. He attains and dwells in the third jhana; that which causes a person who attains it to be praised by the Noble Ones as one who has equanimity and mindfulness, one who abides in sukha. By becoming detached from both sukha and dukkha and by the previous cessation of gladness and mental pain, a bhikkhu attains and dwells in the fourth jhana, a state of pure mindfulness born of equanimity. This, bhikkhus, is called Right Concentration". [Translated by U Jotika & U Dhamminda] http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati18.htm Unfortunately, the confusion has not yet been put to rest. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > That is not the complete picture. When a it is say the four jhanas > it is in reference to supramundane jhanas and not those we think as > in mundane jhanas. Supramundane jhanas will happen to all who attain > enlightement be it the disciple follow the dry insightor path. > > > > Ken O > 41673 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 1:20pm Subject: Re: for James Hi Connie (James, Ken O.,...) - T: In your earlier message you quoted MN 117: C: "Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors - right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness - is called noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions" and then it goes on thru the different factors and keeps saying "right view is the fore-runner" T: And you went on to say: C: I guess that 'singleness of mind' is the jhana in question and it only happens when all the other factors "without effluents, transcendent" are there and not just 'any old jhana' if there is such a thing - whatever Buddha's teachers did/had. Then, I think about the sotapanna (or "whoever is endowed with this noble 8-fold path") not having to master jhanas and how satipatthana is called 'five-fold path development' because of the factors that develop together then, but not (necessarily?) during any other kind of 'meditation'. So, I think I'll just skip out on the right concentration topic because I'm sure I don't have it and look back at right view beyond some basic intellectual understanding. T: I think you are right to say that right concentration is not the 'old jhana', and that it was taught only by our Lord Buddha. The sutta MN 117 further states as follows: "To one with right concentration arise right knowledge. To one with right knowledge arise right release. Thus the trainer has eight factors and the perfect one has ten factors.". So it is very clear to me that we have a proof which states that any Ariya who has attained the right concentration (which is defined in terms of the four rupa-jhanas in Maha-satipatthana Sutta, for example) is a trainer (sekha = a sotapanna, a sakadagami or an anagami), and beyond the right concentration, the 8th Path factor, is the Arahat who has attained the two additional factors. Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Hi, James (and Tep), > > Sorry about the no comment, no greeting, nothing but a quote post, James. > I just ran across it while I was doing something else and for some 41674 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 1:23pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up Hey Htoo, good answers here. I was going to respond with the javana cittas as you did to Joop originally but I thought that might be too detailed. I think it clearly illustrates what drops away and what doesn't. Buddha and both chief disciples paid their last kamma (strongest) debts right before cuti citta. - kel > But round of vipaka > cannot be stopped even with His greatest power. > > But as soon as cuti citta arises in any arahat including The Buddha, > all existing kamma have to end and they all become ahosi kamma. 41675 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Friend Ken H. - I am pleased that we have got along fine, even though there is a big difference concerning our practices that you have succinctly described as follows: KH: As you know, I understand the practice to be more flexible than the way you describe it. To the extent that the Dhamma has been heard and considered, there can be practice at any time of day. Like all cittas, kusala-citta-with-panna is very fast, and there is no need to set aside a special time - quite the reverse, in fact. T: You know, I'd very much like to be more flexible in my practice too. The main trouble I have right now is that if the Teachings can be practiced by those rich merchants who were surrounded with things of sensual pleasures, then what I have learned is completely wrong. Please comment on the following practice that I have used as a guidance. Is it wrong or not? "A disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue, guards the doors to his sense faculties, knows moderation in eating, is devoted to wakefulness, is endowed with seven qualities, and obtains at will -- without trouble or difficulty -- the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now. ...Then he is called a disciple of the noble ones who follows the practice for one in training, whose eggs are unspoiled, who is capable of breaking out, capable of awakening, capable of attaining the supreme rest from the yoke ". ' The noble warrior is the best among people when judging by clan. But a person consummate in clear-knowing & conduct, is the best of beings human & divine.' [MN53: Sekha-patipada Sutta] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn053.html Note: The "seven qualities" are described in the sutta. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > ---------------------- > T: > This sutta deserves a careful study, Ken. If you can give the > title and reference (e.g. MN, AN, or whatever, with the number) then > I would be thankful. > > ----------------------- > > I have never read it, but Robert K has quoted it here on DSG: > RK: > In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 > The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants > came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should > live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train > themselves thus: > "as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, > deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned > with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will > spend our days learning them. That is how you must > spend your days." > > 41676 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, 2. Sutta no 3. Nina Many thanks for the commentary material and your own supplement. I find it very inspiring. As you say, it is actually tallking about the ariyan, as appears from the verse, and is an exhortation to us all to develop those same qualities. Here is the verse from the BB translation, for comparison: The wise prescribe giving, Harmelssness, self-control and taming, Service to one's dear parents And to those who live the holy life. These are the kinds of deeds T which the wise person resorts. The noble one, possessed of vision, Passes to an auspicous world. A footnote to the verse reads: 'It seems that in the verse, the "going forth" is represented by "harmlessness, self-control and taming", since these are the practices undertaken by those who go forth. "Service to those who live the holy life" must be included under service to parents.' Thanks again for the commentary. Jon nina wrote: >Hi Howard, Jon and all, > >PTS Vol 1,p134. 'Duties' > >BB's transl, 'Prescribed by the Wise' > >"Three things are prescribed by the wise: giving, going forth into >homelessness, service to one's parents." > >Verse (P.T.S. translation): >Giving and harmlessness and self-restraint, >Control of sense and service to the parents >And holy ones who live the righteous life,- >If anyone be wise to do these things >By good men favoured, an Ariyan >Clear-sighted, will attain the world of bliss. > >N: the Co states as to prescribed: what the wise prescribe, declare, exhort >to. Prescribe: the word paññatti, which can mean regulation, is used here. >Thus, these are strong wordings. > > 41677 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:04pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Hi Sarah, DSG is a very good example for all Buddhist discussion groups (congratulations to you and Jon for your success). Therefore, I have nothing but great respect for our group, and that respect conditions my "enthusiastic and polite feeedback" toward everyone. You know, so far you have given me a lot of homework to study! These stuffs are exceptional and most interesting. I'll do my best to go through all of the "reading assignments", bit by bit. Thank you very much, Sarah. Kindest regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > As everyone else is commenting, your enthusiastic and polite feedback to > all suggestions and comments is a good example for us all. > 41678 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: for James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Friend Ken O. - > > Thank you for making a comment about the four jhanas. It all started > with Connie's mail : From the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation > and commentary summary ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual > of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold > Path, right view (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in > understanding the Four Noble Truths. ... ... Right concentration is > defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta system." > > T (message #41590): This commentary summary is very concise and > should be read over several times so that confusions concerning the > true meanings of the Path factors will be put to rest. >============= Dear Tep, Usually in Theravada when we refer to 'commentaries' it means those by Buddhaghosa and Dhammapala etc. Comments made by modern writers are fine but should be acknolwdged as such. Someone new to Buddhism reading your post might think the passage you quote was from the tika to the Abhidhammathasangaa. RobertK 41679 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Ken, Thinking that I am perception or perception is mine are views rather than sanna vipallasa because thinking is involved. The immediate recognition of "Larry" as me is sanna vipallasa. These are very similar, only a slight difference. An example of misperception with kusala consciousness would be perceiving a gift as desirable and the recipient of the gift as a real person. Correctly perceived generosity would be emptiness flowing into emptiness like pouring water into the ocean. Larry 41680 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Jon, I've lost the thread. I don't know what either one of us is talking about. Maybe we should start over. Larry --------------------- Jon: "Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Jon, I'm not following you; can you elaborate? It might be better to say a sign _is_ an error and it arises according to conditions. I probably should have said 'interpretation of signs' is just a sequence of signs that arises according to conditions. There is no interpreter. J: "Signs are mental creations used to represent thing; they are used to designate how things are interpreted. As I use the term sign, it is not something that could *be interpreted*. So you and I may be at cross purposes here. Perhaps an example of what you have in mind would help. Jon" 41681 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi Nina, The object of consciousness isn't a present reality. The present reality is the consciousness and its cetasikas. That is why dualistic notions of consciousness experiencing an object with contact brokering this exchange are untenable, imo. Larry 41682 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:24pm Subject: Re: for James Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Hi, James (and Tep), > > Sorry about the no comment, no greeting, nothing but a quote post, James. No problem. Just wanted to know what this quote meant to you. > I just ran across it while I was doing something else and for some reason > I thought you'd said something along those lines - the "right > concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the suttanta > system" part - to Sarah and I was going to look back in the archives for > it, but you see how far I got with that. Now, I'm wondering if it was > even you and don't remember what exactly I had in mind. Yeah, it was me. You remembered correctly. Thanks for the quote. But I came across > another one today from the MN: Metta, James 41683 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 135 and Tiika Vism: "But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of associated states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so on." Hi Nina, This suggests to me that remembering is slightly different from recognition. Perception doesn't need volition to recognize a dhamma. Are we still saying that sanna is what does the remembering (recollection)? Larry ---------------- ps: Yes, a comment on 136 would be appreciated. L. 41684 From: Waters Illusion Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:46pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop Hi Joop, The way I look at kamma, which I hope will help you understand better, is like a habit pattern since the literal meaning of kamma is "action/volition". Suppose you are given a pen and paper, what would you instinctively do? Use the pen and write on the paper, simple right? Well, how do you know that? Because when you were little you were taught to do so. YOu were trained to do so and even in your dream, subconsciously if you were given a paper and pen, you'd instinctively write on the paper w/ the pen. The same is true with kamma and citta, or at least from my point of view. Suppose in this life you have done nothing but good deeds, those actions, good will has been built up in your mind subconsciously that it has become your nature to do wholesome deeds. so therefore, at the time of death, that is the very thing that you remember because that's all you've been doing all your life: doing good deeds. Based on your own actions, that's been stored up in your citta, you will recieve the result that you deserve. During the time of death, the realm that you are reborn into will be determined by your own citta, what you were thinking during the time of death...all the past memories arise naturally...its nature's law, you reap what you sow. I hope that is clearer...well it makes sense to me at least :) ~Maya 41685 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/2/05 8:17:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > The object of consciousness isn't a present reality. The present reality > is the consciousness and its cetasikas. That is why dualistic notions of > consciousness experiencing an object with contact brokering this > exchange are untenable, imo. > > Larry > ========================= You write "The object of consciousness isn't a present reality." And I ask why you say that! When I am aware of hardness, why is that hardness unreal or not present? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41686 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:02pm Subject: Salesmanship: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Sarah (and Phil and All), Sarah: I wasn't sure if you were wanting further feedback here or not:-/ James: Wasn't necessarily wanting feedback, but not opposed to receiving feedback either. Sarah: Perhaps, like you said to Rob K about taking care of your kamma, we should all take care of our own attachments too?? James: We have no choice but to `take care' of our own attachments. No one else can take care of them for us. But I believe it is okay for dhamma friends to point out to each other where they believe attachments may lie. Granted, a forum like this may not be the best place, but I often have in mind that I am not addressing just you. Attachment to views (even views of dhamma) is not healthy, in my opinion (and I speak from experience because I know I can get rather militant. Actually, it was Phil writing to me off-list about this attachment which made me settle down, and still working on that. He was right! It was like I was becoming some kind of self-made Dhamma Avenger! LOL! Thanks Phil! ;-) I try to learn from my mistakes. Spiritual progress is really about making one mistake after another and learning from each mistake.) Sarah: If this is the first baby step for all, why isn't it stressed as being so in every sutta we read? Why do we read in the HoneyBall Sutta, for example, about seeing consciousness, visible objects, proliferations and so on? Why do we read about present moment dhammas to be known with insight in the Bhaddekeratta Sutta? Why isn't it stressed in the 4 Noble Truths or the 8fold path factors? James: Actually, I think the first baby step is the perfection of sila; but then the Buddha recommends mindfulness of breathing (You read the sutta I quoted. What do you have to say about that sutta in particular?). It was what his son, Rahula, first began to practice as a child. It isn't listed in every sutta because every sutta serves a different purpose and is for a different audience. Sarah: Thx for giving the responses. Again. Let's take care of our own baby steps rather than worrying about each other's. James: Okay, I won't tell you anything anymore. However, I want you and everyone here to feel free to tell me whatever they want- either on-list or off-list. I'm here to learn, not to teach. Sarah: In your experience, can there be `real practice' or development of insight into presently arisen states (dhammas) when you're not having `painful sitting in meditation' or focused on breath? Or are these pre-requisites for any awareness or understanding of any kind to develop? I'm asking because I'm sincerely interested in your view. James: This is a very nice question. Thank you! From my understanding, traditionally the process goes like this: Sila -> Panna -> Samadhi. One must first perfect sila, then build the seven path factors lead by right view, and finally develop Samadhi (jhana). This is the most direct route to enlightenment, which the monks practiced. However, householders are not on the fast track to enlightenment and should develop whatever path factors as they can. In other words, even a meat butcher or fisherman (wrong livelihood) can do his/her best to develop samadhi, and the other path factors, in this lifetime in order to reach sotapanna. Does this answer your question? Metta, James 41687 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: for James Dear RobertK (and Connie), In message #41678 you expressed a concern on the referencing of the "commentary summary" I got from Connie's message #41576. Let me paste Connie's whole message for you to look at: Message # 41576: from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary summary ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma-- VII, 30 "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths. Right intention (sammasmakappa) is the cetasika of initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. Right mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. Right concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta system." [end of passage] The matter of fact is, I just quoted from the above passage without any clue about the name of the writer. Perhaps, Connie can tell you better. Kind regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Friend Ken O. - > > > > Thank you for making a comment about the four jhanas. It all > started > > with Connie's mail : From the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation > > and commentary summary ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual > > of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 "Of the eight factors of the Noble > Eightfold > > Path, right view (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom > exercised in > > understanding the Four Noble Truths. ... ... Right concentration > is > > defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta system." > > > > T (message #41590): This commentary summary is very concise and > > should be read over several times so that confusions concerning > the > > true meanings of the Path factors will be put to rest. > >============= > Dear Tep, > Usually in Theravada when we refer to 'commentaries' it means those > by Buddhaghosa and Dhammapala etc. Comments made by modern writers > are fine but should be acknolwdged as such. Someone new to Buddhism > reading your post might think the passage you quote was from the > tika to the Abhidhammathasangaa. > > RobertK 41688 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 7:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Sarah (and Sukin), --------------------- S: > I don't recall the conversation, but remember a similar live one with Sukin some time back. Of course any understanding is weak in the beginning, but it grows as sati is aware more and more often, I think. No need to have any expectations one way or another or to think of 'this beginner'. Also, there's no need to have doubts whether that direct understanding will and does develop. I'm sure it's (any doubt that is) very fleeting in your case. > -------------------- Your comments always contain valuable suggestions, although, in this instance, I'm not sure I entirely get the point. It might take a little time. ---------------- S: > You may well smile when you look back at these comments a little later. I notice that Sukin no longer questions or wonders along these lines. He may add more. ----------------- I'd like to say I will smile and move on, but, judging from past performances, I will probably cringe and agonise over it. :-) But don't let that stop you (or you, Sukin) - I need all the help I can get. ----------------- S: > p.s I laughed at your friend's dukkha breakfast;-) ------------------------------- I've always told him he wouldn't know a paramattha dhamma if it popped up in his corn flakes. We'll never hear the end of this! :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi KenH, > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > You wrote to Tep: > > > Yes, the end product you are talking about does require a lot of > > preparation. But, even now, there can be a degree of right > > understanding. To the extent that we have studied the true Dhamma, > > there can, at least, be right *intellectual* understanding of the > > present dhammas. I doubt a beginner like me would ever have moments > > of direct understanding. They would have to be of an extremely weak > > level. (I remember DSG has discussed this before, but can't > > remember what we concluded. :-) ) > ... 41689 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Re: Balancing the Five Indriyas Dear Nina - You have been very kind and patient in explaining the Higher-dhamma principles to me. The difficulty I have experienced is perhaps caused by my own strong belief that still is too firm to change. Such belief is based on 20+ years of the Suttanta Pitaka study (yet, some wrong views still remain). Although your time and patience cannot last forever, I hope you won't become impatient too soon. With your permission, I hope to continue to discuss the Dhamma with you until we can resolve the difficulty, or you tell me to stop! I promise you; there will be no hard feeling if you tell me so. N: The 4 foundations of mindfulness as objects of sati and paññaa are nothing else but nama and rupa appearing one at a time through the six doors. As I see it, there is no need to think : is this mindfulness of body, that mindfulness of feeling. The question is: what characteristic appears now. The satipatthanasutta reminds us that whatever we are doing, whatever posture we assume, wherever we are, there are only nama elements and rupa elements and these can be object of awareness. We may be distracted and heedless, but this sutta brings us back to reality. T: I need a real-world example to help me understand what you said. Say, now you are walking on a street. How do you take a nama element or a rupa element as the object of awareness in every moment while walking? How do you know when a characteristic appears now (how does it become manifest)? Do you think about the 3 characteristics of the object of awareness, or do they appear by themselves one at a time ? How do you contemplate the rapid arising or passing away of the object of awareness? How do you deal with distracted thoughts or thinking that interferes with the satipatthana? N: I heard this morning:< When we are touching something it seems that hardness was there all the time, but when it appears it has just before arisen and it falls away. Also the rupa that is body-door at that moment: it seems that it is there all the time, but it has just arisen. > T: I really like this logical explanation of hardness. It helps me understand the illusion of continuity that fools us to think that "it is there all the time". But how do I experience the phenomena of rising and falling away of a "body-door" at a given moment? I only "see" the process by logical deduction. So, how do I train the mind so that it actually sees the arising-and-falling-away phenomena with mindfulness and right understanding? N: I did not answer your Q how the powers become manifest in satipatthana. When there is unshakable confidence that this is the right way: mindfulness and understanding of whatever appears now. When there is firm understanding of what the right Path is. T: When I asked "how", I meant the actual working of powers with the application of satipatthana. Your answer only tells me about the conditions, or factors that are the requisites for sati-bala to arise. This answer begs for more questions like "how do we practice for the unshakable confidence and the firm understanding of the right Path?", etc. Do I need to go back to the suttas to help me out? Kindest regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 30-01-2005 20:53 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > The Nyanatiloka's definition of the five > > balas is that they are 'powers' of the 5 spirtual faculties (Indriya) by the > > fact "that they are unshakable by their opposites" and they > > represent "the aspect of firmness in the spiritual faculties". I am not > > sure what unskable and firmness mean in the practical sense. > N: the indriyas have been developed more, so that they have gained in > strength. 41690 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi Howard, H: "You write "The object of consciousness isn't a present reality." And I ask why you say that! When I am aware of hardness, why is that hardness unreal or not present?" L: The hardness is both real and present but not an object of consciousness. Rather, it IS consciousness, body consciousness. Abhidhamma can be construed as saying the object of body consciousness is a nonexperientially manifesting rupa (a rupa that is not an experience). I know this doesn't jive with your views, but take a mind-door object of consciousness. Say, dislike of bodily feeling (vedana). Bodily feeling is the object of dislike but it isn't a present reality when dislike arises. Before dislike arises the bodily feeling was a present experienced feeling. My contention is that that feeling conditioned the arising of dislike via latent tendencies without dislike actually co-existing with the feeling at any time. Abhidhamma substantiates this in that the object of consciousness is not present in a mind-door process. I would say it is also not present in a 5-door process, but that's a bit of a heresy. This theory also presents some difficulties for satipatthana and its objects of mindfulness, but I think these are just linguistic difficulties. You may say,"Aha! I can detect a difference between awareness and hardness." I would say this awareness is attention or some such co-arising cetasika. In fact there are numerous co-arising cetasikas and, as such, co-arising simultaneous experiences. Also, your awareness of awareness is a reviewing process that is a little too complicated for me to sort out. Possibly it is just the manifestation of perception (sanna). Larry 41691 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 12:05:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > H: "You write "The object of consciousness isn't a present reality." And > I ask why you say that! When I am aware of hardness, why is that > hardness unreal or not present?" > > L: The hardness is both real and present but not an object of > consciousness. Rather, it IS consciousness, body consciousness. > --------------------------------- Howard: Nah! ------------------------------ > Abhidhamma can be construed as saying the object of body consciousness > is a nonexperientially manifesting rupa (a rupa that is not an > experience). I know this doesn't jive with your views, but take a > mind-door object of consciousness. Say, dislike of bodily feeling > (vedana). Bodily feeling is the object of dislike but it isn't a present > reality when dislike arises. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Uh, for clarity, lets not speak of vedana but of an unpleasant bodily sensation (rupa). When the sensation is present, it is the object of consciousness. Afterwards, it is no longer the object of consciousness, but an emotion of aversion (nama) is the object of consciousness. And through a thought process, that aversion is associated with (the remembered) unpleasant sensation. That's how I see it. --------------------------------- Before dislike arises the bodily feeling> > was a present experienced feeling. My contention is that that feeling > conditioned the arising of dislike via latent tendencies without dislike > actually co-existing with the feeling at any time. > ----------------------------- Howard: I have no problem with that formulation. I agree that the dislike did not occur at the same time as the disliked sensation. First there was the sensation as object, and then, in reaction to its unpleasantness, and conditioned by ignorance, there arose aversion as content of consciousness. ---------------------------- Abhidhamma> > substantiates this in that the object of consciousness is not present in > a mind-door process. > -------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand. Are you saying that mind-door cittas are without arammanas? -------------------------------- I would say it is also not present in a 5-door> > process, but that's a bit of a heresy. This theory also presents some > difficulties for satipatthana and its objects of mindfulness, but I > think these are just linguistic difficulties. > > You may say,"Aha! I can detect a difference between awareness and > hardness." I would say this awareness is attention or some such > co-arising cetasika. In fact there are numerous co-arising cetasikas > and, as such, co-arising simultaneous experiences. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I take awareness of hardness to be nothing more or less than the (experiential) presence of hardness. But we've been through this discussion before - quite recently, in fact. ------------------------------------- > > Also, your awareness of awareness is a reviewing process that is a > little too complicated for me to sort out. Possibly it is just the > manifestation of perception (sanna). > ------------------------------------ Howard: Could you please remind me? I don't recall talking about awareness of awareness. In fact, I don't believe in such a thing except after the fact, in which case the object of consciousness is a memory. The eye doesn't see itself, a knife doesn't cut itself, and awareness is not self-aware. ------------------------------------ > > Larry > > > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41692 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Re: for James Dear Robert, Tep and Ken O, Yes, my carelessness. The quote came from the "explanatory guide" - not 'commentary' or 'commentary summary' - part of the CMA. Thanks for making me look, Robert. What it guides us back to is translated from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha proper as: "There are eight path factors: (1) right view, (2) right intention, (3) right speech, (4) right action, (5) right livelihood, (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, (8) right concentration." [Attha maggangaani: sammaaditthi, sammaasankappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaa-aajiivo, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi.] There is also a reference "(see D.22/ii,313)" after the 'guidance' that "right concentration is defined in terms of the four jhaanas of the Suttanta system". I usually see 'The Guide' credited to Bhikkhu Bodhi alone, but the cover page says "Introduction and explanatory guide by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi". Still true enough that it "does not need any correction, addition, or explanation beyond what it is", but what it isn't quite what my original post made it seem. apologies all around, connie 41693 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:37pm Subject: thanks, Htoo Dear Htoo, Thank you for your patience and further explanations. peace, connie > Those kamma that do not extend into next life or those kamma that end as > soon as a life end is called 'dittha dhamma vedaniiya kamma'. > in the setting of magga-vithi vara it is said that mandha can only take > 2 phala while tikkha can take 3 phala cittas. 41694 From: Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi Howard, L: "Abhidhamma can be construed as saying the object of body consciousness is a nonexperientially manifesting rupa (a rupa that is not an experience). I know this doesn't jive with your views, but take a mind-door object of consciousness. Say, dislike of bodily feeling (vedana). Bodily feeling is the object of dislike but it isn't a present reality when dislike arises." ------------------------------------ H: "Uh, for clarity, lets not speak of vedana but of an unpleasant bodily sensation (rupa). When the sensation is present, it is the object of consciousness. Afterwards, it is no longer the object of consciousness, but an emotion of aversion (nama) is the object of consciousness. And through a thought process, that aversion is associated with (the remembered) unpleasant sensation. That's how I see it." /////////////////////////// Larry: This does't clarify. There are no unpleasant rupas. There are, however, undesirable rupas. ///////////////////////////// L: "Before dislike arises the bodily feeling was a present experienced feeling. My contention is that that feeling conditioned the arising of dislike via latent tendencies without dislike actually co-existing with the feeling at any time." ----------------------------- H: I have no problem with that formulation. I agree that the dislike did not occur at the same time as the disliked sensation. First there was the sensation as object, and then, in reaction to its unpleasantness, and conditioned by ignorance, there arose aversion as content of consciousness. ---------------------------- L: "Abhidhamma substantiates this in that the object of consciousness is not present in a mind-door process." -------------------------------- H: "I don't understand. Are you saying that mind-door cittas are without arammanas?" ////////////////////////////// L: The object is not present experience in the mind-door process. /////////////////////////////// L: "I would say it is also not present in a 5-door process, but that's a bit of a heresy. This theory also presents some difficulties for satipatthana and its objects of mindfulness, but I think these are just linguistic difficulties. You may say,"Aha! I can detect a difference between awareness and hardness." I would say this awareness is attention or some such co-arising cetasika. In fact there are numerous co-arising cetasikas and, as such, co-arising simultaneous experiences. ------------------------------------- H: "I take awareness of hardness to be nothing more or less than the (experiential) presence of hardness. But we've been through this discussion before - quite recently, in fact. ////////////////////////////////////// L: Sorry, I misread some of your recent posts. Suffice it to say I can detect a difference between 'consciousness' and hardness but I would call this 'consciousness' attention, the cetasika. Recognition of attention could be characterized as awareness of awareness. This might work with satipatthana. Or one may possibly account for this so called "awareness of awareness" in other ways, not sure. /////////////////////////////// L: "Also, your awareness of awareness is a reviewing process that is a little too complicated for me to sort out. Possibly it is just the manifestation of perception (sanna)." ------------------------------------ H: "Could you please remind me? I don't recall talking about awareness of awareness. In fact, I don't believe in such a thing except after the fact, in which case the object of consciousness is a memory. The eye doesn't see itself, a knife doesn't cut itself, and awareness is not self-aware." ////////////////////////// L: What do you mean "see"? Larry 41695 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:15am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, Thanks for your question: ------------------------ T: > Please comment on the following practice that I have used as a guidance. Is it wrong or not? ------------------------ I don't think we need to single out any particular practice as a guidance, nor to decide what is the right or wrong practice for us. There is no "us" so it can't be necessary for us to choose - conditions take care of that. In the sutta you have quoted, Ananda was told by the Buddha to, "speak about the person who follows the practice for one in training." So it is about the person more than the practice. The person spoken of is a disciple of the noble ones, so he is at least a sotapanna (but not yet and arahant). Furthermore, Ananda begins with the words, "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is . . .," so he is not describing every disciple of the noble ones. I think he is describing the case of the most esteemed disciple - the one who practises jhana and vipassana in tandem. The Satipatthana sutta is similar: it begins with the case of that same elite of monks - the monk who takes breath as the object of jhana and then takes jhana citta as the object of satipatthana. Then the sutta describes the more common objects of satipatthana that are experienced by all disciples. So, in summary, I think this sutta describes certain monks who have already attained enlightenment. It is not a description of the preliminary practice. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > [MN53: Sekha-patipada Sutta] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn053.html > > 41696 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: for James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Usually in Theravada when we refer to 'commentaries' it means those > by Buddhaghosa and Dhammapala etc. Comments made by modern writers > are fine but should be acknolwdged as such. Someone new to Buddhism > reading your post might think the passage you quote was from the > tika to the Abhidhammathasangaa. > > RobertK Dear RobertK I made that observation too; and I think it's a bad habit In the first place it's typically incrowd-behavior, and makes a clear distinction between the "we" and the "they" who don't know who the socalled "commentaries" are. In the second place it gives nearly automatically a big authority to the text named "commentaries", and your proposal gives automatically a bigger autority to the texts of Buddhaghosa, Dhammapala etc then modern texts. My problem with the texts of for example Buddhaghosa is that's not a pure explanation of the Teachings of the Buddha, but partly interpretation. Nothing against interpretation, we hardly can do without; especially we (or: I) can do without modern explanations who bridge the gap in culture (India 2500 years ago) and time between the Teachings of the Buddha and the conventional reality of today. And I like to know who gives an interpretation because I like some schools of interpretation more than other ones. So my proposal to the DSG-participants: never say just "commentaries" but give the name of the author and/or the text. Metta Joop 41697 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (249) / old kamma used up:Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Waters Illusion" wrote: > > > Hi Joop, > > The way I look at kamma, which I hope will help you understand > better, is like a habit pattern since the literal meaning of kamma > is "action/volition". ... Hallo Waters Illusion (if you want to be called with that name) Your explanation about kamma is rather clear, it does help my understanding. Still I have some problems: - You talk about receiving "the result that you deserve". A property of the ethics connected with the kamma-concept is that is future- directed, it's about the effects of my intentional behavior in the future. But I don't behave in a ethical way because of some effect, I do it because of my conscience, of the memory that I have taken the five precepts. I try to live in the here and now and not being interested in the future of me (or I get better say: 'of somebody' because who is me?). - You talk about "actions … stored up in your citta". As I said in another message: how does that work, how can billions of bits of intentions technically been stored in a citta, a volatile phenomena ? - You talk about "the realm that you are reborn". I don't know if that happens, but that's not a topic of understanding, it's a topic of (not)believing: in rebirth. Metta Joop 41698 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 5:10am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 115 - Concentration/ekaggataa (k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** When there is right mindfulness of a nåma or rúpa which appears, without trying to focus on a particular object, there is also right concentration which arises at that moment because of the appropriate conditions and performs its function. When right understanding develops it penetrates the arising and ceasing of the five khandhas and eventually there will be the destruction of the åsavas at the attainment of arahatship. ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41699 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 1:45:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Larry: This does't clarify. There are no unpleasant rupas. There are, > however, undesirable rupas. > ==================== My understanding is that Abhidhamma says there *are* unpleasant rupas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41700 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 1:45:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > ---------------------------- > L: "Abhidhamma substantiates this in that the object of consciousness > is not present in a mind-door process." > -------------------------------- > H: "I don't understand. Are you saying that mind-door cittas are without > arammanas?" > ////////////////////////////// > > L: The object is not present experience in the mind-door process. > ======================= Larry, just repeating your statement doesn't explain it to me. :-( With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41701 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 1:45:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > H: "Could you please remind me? I don't recall talking about awareness > of awareness. In fact, I don't believe in such a thing except after the > fact, in which case the object of consciousness is a memory. The eye > doesn't see itself, a knife doesn't cut itself, and awareness is not > self-aware." > ////////////////////////// > > L: What do you mean "see"? > =================== With regard to the eye, I was speaking colloquially. My point was to analogically point out that awareness is awareness f something other than itself. For example, awarenesss of hardness is awareness of *hardness*, and not of awareness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41702 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard I'm not sure I follow you here, so let me try putting it another way... upasaka@a... wrote: > Jon, everything that arises does so only momentary. Moreover, >everything that arises does so due to conditions, and mental construction is just a >category of condition. On the basis of what you have written, names and meanings >seem no less real than anything else! > > At moments of thinking about names and meanings, the thinking arises but there is not 'thing' of names and meaning that arises, there is only the thinking. That is to say, when we talk about thoughts as the object of thinking, there is no 'object' but just the thinking 'about' something. Jon 41703 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi Howard, What don't you understand? No, there are no objects in mind-door process; there are no unpleasant rupas; mindfulness or recognition of consciousness could be characterized as 'awareness of awareness'. Btw, how do you know rupa is different from consciousness? Larry --------------------------------- Howard: "Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 1:45:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: ---------------------------- L: "Abhidhamma substantiates this in that the object of consciousness is not present in a mind-door process." -------------------------------- H: "I don't understand. Are you saying that mind-door cittas are without arammanas?" ////////////////////////////// L: The object is not present experience in the mind-door process. ======================= Larry, just repeating your statement doesn't explain it to me. :-( With metta, Howard" 41704 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >Analysis of Sentence One: Names and meanings are not merely mind created. >Names and meanings have been learned and conditioned through contacts of all >the sense bases. When we go to school, we use eyes and eye objects, and ears >and ear objects to learn things from teachers. Those contacts condition the >mind and become objects for the mind. The mind does not "create names and >meanings." Names and meanings (thoughts) are conditioned by "external and internal" >conditions. The other senses are all used to learn things as well of course. > > OK, I think I can see where we are at cross-purposes here. I agree that thinking is influenced (= conditioned) by previous experiences. No doubt about that at all. But it is the consciousness that thinks that is the conditioned dhamma here, and that is itself a dhamma. Whatever the mind thinks, by virtue of those conditioning factors, that thought is thought about. The thinking consciousness is a dhamma, but not what is thought about. >Analysis of Sentence Two: As I read your message (the reading a conditioned >skill/memory), light from the monitor is making contact with patterns that >have been learned and are recognizable (words). This conditions a variety of >memories that follow in sequence to the words you typed. These memories follow >my experiences, not yours. So what you say has to be interpreted based on my >experience. If I haven't had the same general experiences as you have, I won't >be able to follow what you are saying. I.E., the meaning won't arise because >it won't have a condition that can support it. (Unless I can be "led" to >understand it based on "my experiences.") The thoughts are not just "being >created," they are being conditioned by so many things. > > I agree with most of what you say here, and specifically that your thinking can only 'read' my message if all the necessary conditions are fulfilled. But as I understand the Abhidhamma, it is the thinking consciousness that is crucial here, not the thoughts (names/meanings that are thought about). They are what is thought about by thinking consciousness. Are we any closer on this? Jon 41705 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/3/05 9:17:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > At moments of thinking about names and meanings, the thinking arises but > there is not 'thing' of names and meaning that arises, there is only the > thinking. That is to say, when we talk about thoughts as the object of > thinking, there is no 'object' but just the thinking 'about' something. > > Jon > =================== Okay. I think I follow you, and I actually agree with the sense of it! There is just the process of thinking, and it *seems* to be "about something," but with that "something" not an actual object. However, it still remains true, does it not, that every mindstate has an object or objective content? It just may be that during thought processes we may not be all that clear on what the actual objects are. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41706 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:11am Subject: Anicca as characteristic Dear all Nyatiloka: "anicca: 'impermanent' is the first of the three characteristics of existence. It is from the fact of impermanence that, in most texts, the other two characteristics, suffering (dukkha) and not-self anattá), are derived. Impermanence of things is the rising, passing and changing of things, or the disappearance of things that have become or arisen. The meaning is that these things never persist in the same way, but that they are vanishing dissolving from moment to moment. Impermanence is a basic feature of all conditioned phenomena, be they material or mental, coarse or subtle, one's own or external: All formations are impermanent. That the totality of existence is impermanent is also often stated in terms of the five aggregates, the twelve personal and external sense bases, etc. Only Nibbána, which is unconditioned and not a formation, is permanent." "Only Nibbana is permanent", so Kamma is not permanent seems a logical conclusion, I made yesterday. In the 'Useful posts' of DSG the term 'impermanence' has 17 entries, and anatta more then the triple of it. Why ? In a discussion about the concept "emptiness" some weeks ago Kel said: "some really like anicca and some anatta" (to contemplate); some DSG members are rather into anatta. And then one gets into explaining and expounding everything based on that preference." I agreed with him and concluded that it is also partly a question of personality which principle is taken central. I never had a big ego so the dichotomy atta - anatta doesn't play an important role in my contemplations. My little theory: people fighting against their strong ego prefer anatta aspects of emptiness, people fighting against a need of ontology prefer anicca aspects of emptiness. And I have a big need of ontology. That's why I studied particle physics and astrophysics after my retirement. And that why I like to study Abhidhamma now: the ultimate reality existing of 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas and some laws governing their interactions. And that's why I like the remarks of Howard, in his discussion with Jon, about phenomenology, as a medicine against that ontological need of me. But there is one law, at the same time one of the rupas, that works as a kind of anarchistic element in this beautiful ontological building: anicca. Sometimes I think: the principle of anicca is a virus, secretly put in the software of the Pali Canon by some Mahayanists (Madhyamakanists). Metta Joop 41707 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 9:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What don't you understand? No, there are no objects in mind-door > process; there are no unpleasant rupas; mindfulness or recognition of > consciousness could be characterized as 'awareness of awareness'. > ------------------------------------ Howard: 1) I believe that every citta has an object (or objective content), and I understand that to be a basic premiss of Abhidhamma. 2) I believe that every rupa is, in itself, either pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral, and I understand that to be a basic premiss of Abhidhamma. 3) Mindfulness and recognition are certainly cognitive operations, but by 'awareness' I understand "vi~n~nana", and I do not believe that an instance of vi~n~nana can take itself as object. ----------------------------------------- > > Btw, how do you know rupa is different from consciousness? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's how it appears to me. Also, given what I mean by 'consciousness', namely the experiential presence of a dhamma, it is *definitionally* clear to me. To me it is straightforward that the occurrence or presence of something is not the same as that thing. The presence of a thought is not the thought. The presence of anger is not the anger. But they are inseparably co-occurring. ----------------------------------------- > > Larry ===================== I've based some of what I have said on this topic on what I *believe* Abhidhamma to assert. Of course, my knowledge of Abhidhamma is miniscule, and yours, Larry, is far greater. I would love to have some other folks, more knowledgeable than I, weigh in on this, because it would help me to distinguish my own beliefs from what I think, quite possibly mistakenly, to be Abhidhammic positions. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41708 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/3/2005 6:36:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: OK, I think I can see where we are at cross-purposes here. I agree that thinking is influenced (= conditioned) by previous experiences. No doubt about that at all. But it is the consciousness that thinks that is the conditioned dhamma here, and that is itself a dhamma. Whatever the mind thinks, by virtue of those conditioning factors, that thought is thought about. The thinking consciousness is a dhamma, but not what is thought about. But as I understand the Abhidhamma, it is the thinking consciousness that is crucial here, not the thoughts (names/meanings that are thought about). They are what is thought about by thinking consciousness. Are we any closer on this? Jon Hi Jon You seem to be saying that the "thinking consciousness" is one thing (a real thing) and that thoughts are another thing (a not real thing). I can't differentiate them in this way. In my thinking, they are mutualy dependent states and one is just as actual as the other and neither can arise without the other (as thinking consciousness). TG 41709 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread (256) Dear Dhamma Friends, 4 kinds of 4-set was introduced again in the previous post. They are 4 rebirths, 4 realms, 4 kammas, and 4 deaths. 4 kammas and 4 deaths will be deferred at a later time. Rebirth and realms are now going hand in hand. There are 4 rebirths or 4 patisandhi. They are apaya (woeful), kama sugati (sensuous profitable), rupa (fine material), arupa (non-material) rebirth. Regarding realms they have the same 4. That is apaya bhumi or woeful realms, kama sugati bhumi or sensuous profitable realms, rupa bhumi or fine material realms, arupa bhumi or non-material realms. Patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness or linking consciousness for apaya bhumis is 'ahetuka akusala santirana citta'. Regarding woeful realms they are 4 and they have been discussed in the previous posts. Regarding sensuous profitable realms and their rebirth- consciousness or linking consciousness have been discussed in the previous posts. There are 2 further patisandhis and 2 further bhumis. They are rupa patisandhi and arupa patisandhi for rebirth and rupa bhumi or fine material realms and arupa bhumis or non-material realms for planes of existence. These rupa and arupa bhumis or realm are collectively called brahma bhumis. Brahmas are non-sensuous deva and they are celestiel beings of fine material and non-material body. There are 20 brahma bhumis or 20 brahma realms. 16 realms are fine material realms and 4 are non- materials realms. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41710 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/3/2005 7:04:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/3/05 9:17:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > At moments of thinking about names and meanings, the thinking arises but > there is not 'thing' of names and meaning that arises, there is only the > thinking. That is to say, when we talk about thoughts as the object of > thinking, there is no 'object' but just the thinking 'about' something. > > Jon > =================== Okay. I think I follow you, and I actually agree with the sense of it! There is just the process of thinking, and it *seems* to be "about something," but with that "something" not an actual object. However, it still remains true, does it not, that every mindstate has an object or objective content? It just may be that during thought processes we may not be all that clear on what the actual objects are. With metta, Howard Hi Jon and Howard For consciousness not to have an actual object to be "conscious of" is impossible according to Sutta or Abhidhamma as far as I know. During thinking, consciousness has an "actual object." One needs to figure out what it is and how it operates ... so that dependent origination principles are more clearly seen. This is what Howard is alluding to I believe. TG 41711 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread (257) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 16 fine material realms and 4 non-material realms where brahmas live. 16 fine material realms or 16 rupa brahma bhumis are a) 5 pure abode or 5 suddhavasa brahma bhumis or realms of ariyas 5.akanittha bhumi (brahma with panna-bala or wisdon-power) 4.sudassi bhumi (brahma with samadhi-bala or concentration-power) 3.sudassaa bhumi (brahma with viriya-bala or effort-power) 2.atappaa bhumi (brahma with sati-bala or mindfulness-power) 1.avihaa bhumi (brahma with saddha-bala or confidence-power) b) 2.asannasatta bhumi (non-percipient or consciousnessless brahma) 1.vehapphala bhumi (4th jhana bhumi) These 7 bhumis or 7 realms are called 4th jhana bhumis. The first 5 bhumi or realms are where ariya brahmas dwell. c) 3 tatiya jhana bhumis or 3 3rd jhana bhumis 3.subhakihnaa bhumi (extremely beautiful radiant brahma) 2.appamaanasubhaa bhumi (beautiful limitless radiant brahma) 1.parittasubhaa bhumi (beautifully radiant brahma) d) 3 dutiya jhana bhumis or 3 2nd jhana bhumis 3.abhassaraa bhumi (extra-radiant brahma) 2.appamaanabhaa bhumi (radiant brahma) 1.parittaabhaa bhumi (weakly radiant brahma) e) 3 pathama jhana bhumis or 3 1st jhana bhumis 3.mahaabrahmaa bhumi (great brahma) 2.brahmapurohita bhumi (minister brahma) 1.brahmaparisajja bhumi (serving brahma) So there are 7 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 16 rupa brahma bhumis or 16 fine material realms. The first top 5 realms or uppermost 5 realms are called pure abodes or 5 suddhavasa bhumis and they are where all are ariya brahmas. In their immediate past life they were anagams and so in these 5 realms they are anagams and if they develop further enlightenment they are arahatta brahmas. They all will in the course of their life become arahats if they have not attain arahatta magga nana. After those 5 realms comes asannisatta brahmas. They are brahmas who do not have any consciousness. They just have physical body with physical life called jivita rupa. They are reborn in that realm with rupa-patisandhi and when they are still there they will be in rupa- bhavanga and they die with rupa-cuti. This bhumi is 4th jhana bhumi. In their previous life they attained 4th rupa jhana and they dispassionate sanna or perception and because of the power of their jhana there does not develop any sanna or perception and so they are called non-percipient beings or asannisatta. After that realm is vehapphala bhumi. When asannisatta die they have to reborn in 4th rupa jhana bhumi called vehapphala bhumi. In that realm if they still consider that sanna is not profitable then they will dispassionate sanna and again they will be reborn in asannisatta bhumi again. When human beings or deva beings develop 4th jhana and when they are dying they still can develop 4th rupa jhana then they will be reborn as vehapphala brahmas in vehapphala bhumi. c) and d) and e) are 3rd rupa jhana, 2nd rupa jhana, and 1st rupa jhana bhumis. There are 3 bhumis in each jhana because the power in each jhana are different. Some develop 1st jhana in the weakest form. It is called hiina-1st jhana and they will be reborn as brahmaparisajja or working-brahma or serving brahma. If 1st jhana is develop to proficient level then jhana practitioners will be reborn in mahaabrahma bhumi or great brahma bhumi. It is paniita-jhana. If 1st jhana is in the middle or it is majjhima-1st jhana then they will be reborn as brahmapurohita brahma bhumi. By the same token other 2nd and 3rd jhana bhumis all have 3 bhumis in each. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41712 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread (258) Dear Dhamma Friends, 16 rupa brahma bhumis have been discussed in the previous post. These 16 are rupa bhumis. Regarding rupa patisandhi there are 5 rupa patisandhi cittas. They are all rupavipaka cittas. They are corresponding rupa jhana cittas of kusala origin but they all are now vipaka because they are resultant cittas. There are 16 rupa brahma bhumis. But there are only 5 rupa patisandhi cittas. In the first 3 brahma bhumis or 3 1st jhana bhumis the beings there are reborn with 1st jhana rupavipaka citta. If it is weak jhana it will be in brahmaparisajja bhumi or serving-brahma realm and if jhana is the middle one then it will be reborn in brahmapurohita bhumi or minister-brahma realm and if 1st jhana is most powerful one it will be reborn in mahaabrahmaa bhumi or great brahma realm. In the 3 2nd jhana bhumis the beings there are reborn with 2nd or 3rd jhana rupavipaka citta. This is because some practise 2nd jhana with vicara and some do not practise 2nd jhana with vicara. If they do not have vicara their patisandhi citta will be 3rd jhana rupavipaka citta and they will be reborn in 2nd jhana bhumis. There are 3 realms and they depend on weak, middle, and powerful jhana status. In the 3 3rd jhana bhumis all beings there are reborn with 4th jhana rupavipaka citta and their bhumi is called 3rd jhana bhumis. There are 3 bhumis or realms because their power of jhana are not the same and according to power there are difference in bhumi and difference in lifespan. Vehapphala brahmas are reborn with 5th rupa jhana rupavipaka citta and their bhumi is called 4th jhana bhumi. Asannisatta brahmas are also 4th jhana brahmas. But they do not have any sanna or perception and so they do not have any citta or any consciousness and they are non-percipient beings. They are reborn with rupa-patisandhi and they will be in the same position of body when they last die in their immediate past life. Examples are if sitting they will be sitting through out their lifespan and if standing they will be standing and if lying they will be lying through out their life span. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41713 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the Five Indriyas, what is sati. Dear Tep, op 03-02-2005 04:44 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: .... With your permission, I > hope to continue to discuss the Dhamma with you until we can resolve > the difficulty, or you tell me to stop! N: There is no problem here. I only delay because of lack of time. That was the reason I did not read that article you gave. I always have to attend to Visuddimagga, and I also want to spend more time on Sutta and Commentary. So much to read and study in this field. You have excellent and inspiring questions, useful for all of us. Very good you ask for examples. It is a real pleasure to discuss with you, Tep. You are so openminded. T: N: The 4 foundations of mindfulness as objects of sati and paññaa are > nothing else but nama and rupa appearing one at a time through the > six doors. I need a real-world example to help me understand what you said. > Say, now you are walking on a street. How do you take a nama > element or a rupa element as the object of awareness in every > moment while walking? N: Sati arises or it does not. If we think of having to take a nama and rupa, at every moment, it seems to me like an idea of: I am directing sati or sati has to arise without interruption. Elements arise because of conditions and we should learn to see them as without a self directing them. Otherwise we shall not understand anatta. L: How do you know when a characteristic appears now (how does it become manifest)? N: Excellent question. Only one dhamma at a time appearing through one doorway at a time is the object of sati. We could say, one characteristic of nama or rupa appears to sati and there is no need to think of it or to name it. But it is not easy to explain, precisely because I find it very difficult myself. Hardness may appear and be experienced through body-consciousness. But this is not sati. First we have to know when there is sati and when not. We listen to the Dhamma and consider it, and then without trying or planning, sati can arise unexpectantly. The conditions are listening and considering. As soon as we are thinking about sati, there is thinking, not direct awareness. This may not answer your question completely. It is helpful for all of us to know what is not sati but thinking. We may notice this difference: we go along with our usual tasks and think only of persons, places, things we touch such as dishes, books, etc. We are quite absorbed in all those things. But sometimes, without planning, sound may appear without thinking of the meaning of sound, or hardness, without thinking of the hardness *of* a thing. Discussing this helps me. I had to do some chores, and was still thinking about what I wrote just now, and this reminded me for a few moments to be aware in between the thinking of stories about the dishes and so on. The Buddha praised Dhamma discussions, and also enlightened monks had discussions. So, let us continue to discuss. T: Do you think about the 3 > characteristics of the object of awareness, or do they appear by > themselves one at a time ? N: No, they do not and I do not think of them. Because first the different characteristics of nama and rupa (visesa lakkhana) have to be known by insight. Take the first stage: directly realizing the difference between the characteristics of nama and of rupa. This is difficult enough for me. There has to be awareness over and over again of seeing, hearing, hardness, feeling, etc. Many different characteristics. Only later on the three characteristics will become clearer, but not by thinking. But if hardness can be realized as rupa, for example, it is a step towards anatta. It is rupa, not a thing or person. It is rupa, that means, it is anatta. Anatta can become just a little bit clearer. T: How do you contemplate the rapid arising or passing away of the object of awareness? N: This is the first stage of principal insight. Not yet. It is too far away for me. T: How do you deal with > distracted thoughts or thinking that interferes with the satipatthana? N: There is mostly thinking and very little awareness, but that does not matter. Thinking does not interfere, we should not try not to have thinking, then there is again an idea of self who directs. It is reality and it can be known as such. As soon as we mind it shows clinging. We really should not mind what arises, we should remember that it is conditioned. T: N: I heard this morning:< When we are touching something it seems > that hardness was there all the time, > T: I really like this logical explanation of hardness. It helps me > understand the illusion of continuity that fools us to think that "it is there > all the time". But how do I experience the phenomena of rising and > falling away of a "body-door" at a given moment? I only "see" the process by logical deduction. So, how do I train the mind so that it > actually sees the arising-and-falling-away phenomena with mindfulness and right understanding? N: By beginning at the beginning, not expecting to reach a later stage of insight before the first beginning stage of tender insight: directly understanding nama as nama and rupa as rupa. T: N:When there is unshakable confidence that this is the right > way: mindfulness and understanding of whatever appears now. When > there is firm understanding of what the right Path is. > T: When I asked "how", I meant the actual working of powers with the > application of satipatthana. Your answer only tells me about the > conditions, or factors that are the requisites for sati-bala to arise. N: I think of all the powers together. But before they become unshakable powers they are indriyas, faculties. I am inclined to consider first a beginning stage. I am always inclined to think of indriyas and powers in connection with each other, pañña being the leader. T:This answer begs for more questions like "how do we practice for the > unshakable confidence and the firm understanding of the right Path?", > etc. N: By beginning to be mindful of nama and rupa without an idea of self trying. It is difficult to detect the idea of self who is directing, because we are used to this idea our whole life, and countless lives before. It all proceeds with ups and downs. We make mistakes, we are deluded. This is to be expected, it is natural. T: Do I need to go back to the suttas to help me out? N: The Tipitaka is always excellent, it is the Dhamma that is our teacher after the Buddha's passing away. An exhortation to satipatthana is implied in all the suttas, and they also remind us not to forget our duties such as serving parents, helping others, and this together with satipatthana. Nina. 41714 From: nina Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:45am Subject: Pilgrimage India 4 e Pilgrimage India 4 e The perfections of generosity, síla, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, mettå and upekkhå are all connected with each other. When mettå arises, the citta is humble and gentle and at such a moment one also observes síla, one does not hurt others. Síla is one of the perfections. When we attend to the needs of others, we renounce our own comfort, we develop the perfection of renunciation. We should remember the Sutta of the Divine Messengers, which is an exhortation not to be negligent in performing kusala through body, speech and mind when we see an old person or a sick person. We may regret our negligence later on, we are also subject to old age, sickness and death. Paññå is the leader of all perfections, it supports all levels of kusala, and without right understanding of dhammas the perfections cannot be developed. The perfections are means to become purified of akusala. It is not beneficial to cling to an idea of ³my resolve for mettå² and the other perfections. Kusala is not ³I² or ³mine², but a dhamma arising because of conditions. Paññå is the leader of all perfections, it supports all levels of kusala, and without right understanding of dhammas the perfections cannot be developed. The purpose of the teachings is detachment from the idea of self and from all realities, even from kusala. There is no specific time for the development of the perfections, it can gradually become one¹s nature to develop them. When we see someone, can there be friendliness or compassion? Patience, khanti, is one of the perfections, but we may easily take for patience what is not patience but akusala citta. When someone else speaks disagreeable words to us and we do not answer back, we may believe that we are patient, wheas in reality we may keep silent with akusala cittas. Or we have an idea of ³my patience² and cling to it. Patience does not mean indolence and despair. When we have patience we are courageous and we persevere in the development of understanding and all kinds of kusala, even though we do not notice a rapid progress. Acharn Sujin reminded us of the Buddha¹s words about patience, courage and cheerfulness. We should be happy and grateful that we can still listen to the Buddha¹s teachings, even though he passed away many centuries ago. Acharn Sujin said that the perfections wash away the dust from the citta. They lead to detachment. Our goal should be more understanding and less attachment. ******* Nina. 41715 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta about merchants Dear Tep and Ken H, Robert, I just comment on the sutta I like very much. op 02-02-2005 22:58 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > T: You know, I'd very much like to be more flexible in my practice too. > The main trouble I have right now is that if the Teachings can be > practiced by those rich merchants who were surrounded with things of > sensual pleasures, then what I have learned is completely wrong. N: On Streamwinning. Dhammadinna. To spend the days learning the teachings, regularly, always. The Thai has this, but the English has: from time to time. The English is weaker. The Buddha knew that they were sotapannas and encouraged them to develop further. It is said that it was difficult for them to put up with the task. They lived their daily life with all the sense pleasures. But they could be mindful naturally and develop understanding. This sutta encourages us and illustrates that satipatthana can be developed even one enjoys all the pleasant things of life. The Co states that several suttas were mentioned to them for study: the K.S. IV, about the unconditioned, and this is about the development of all the enlightenment factors. Beginning with mindfulness of the body. Actually, mindfulness of the body includes understanding of nama and rupa, not only rupa. Further the Moneyyasutta, Gradual Sayings I, 273, about the perfection through body, speech and mind. The last one is the attainment of arahatship. The sotapanna has perfected sila and the anagami has perfected samadhi, he naturally lives without sense pleasures, and thus he has great calm. The virtues of the ariyans lead to concentration. Thus, these sotapannas who had virtues untarnished, were encouraged to continue to develop understanding until arahatship. Nina. 41716 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, 2. Sutta no 3. Dear Jon, Thank you very much for the verse, BB translation. It helped me, I can add something now. See below. op 02-02-2005 23:05 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jsabbott@n...: > Here is the verse from the BB translation, for comparison: > The wise prescribe giving, > Harmelssness, self-control and taming, > Service to one's dear parents > And to those who live the holy life. > These are the kinds of deeds > T which the wise person resorts. > The noble one, possessed of vision, > Passes to an auspicous world. > > A footnote to the verse reads: > 'It seems that in the verse, the "going forth" is represented by > "harmlessness, self-control and taming", since these are the practices > undertaken by those who go forth. N: Taming, the Thai Pali had thama, in Pali dama, and now I see: taming, subduing. The Co adds: uposatha sila, and also in the Punnovaadasutta: khanti, patience, and also paññaa in the Alavakasutta. Thus, taming includes several qualities, patience and wisdom. Harmlessness, self-control and taming are virtues of the recluse. He lives a life of non-violence. Also laypeople can develop those virtues. Nina. 41717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi Larry, op 03-02-2005 02:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > The object of consciousness isn't a present reality. The present reality > is the consciousness and its cetasikas. That is why dualistic notions of > consciousness experiencing an object with contact brokering this > exchange are untenable, imo. N: When someone thinks by way of subject/object and dualism, it may be difficult to understand that object, aaramma.na, in the Abhidhamma is a different notion. Object is what is experienced by citta and cetasikas. Howard gives the example of hardness, a rupa, which has not fallen away. That rupa is only an object when it is experienced by citta. That rupa has arisen before citta can experience it, because rupa is weak at its arising moment, it cannot be object of citta. Thus, rupa is there, but not experienced, and then it is not an object. As to past rupa that has fallen away long ago, when citta thinks of it, it is an object of citta. A concept of a chair: when citta thinks of it, it is an object. No need to wonder about it whether a dhamma has fallen away or not. At the moment it is experienced it is an object. This can be verified right now. Citta experiences objects through the six doorways and also without being dependent on a doorway in the case of rebirth, bhavanga, dying-consciousness. : broker: buying and selling goods for others? Contact is merely an assistant of citta that experiences an object. You write to Howard: L: ... I know this doesn't jive with your views, but take a mind-door object of consciousness. Say, dislike of bodily feeling (vedana). Bodily feeling is the object of dislike but it isn't a present reality when dislike arises. Before dislike arises the bodily feeling was a present experienced feeling. N: It does not matter. What is past can still be object of citta. Object, aaramma.na: support, footing, anything to be depended upon, condition, ground, basis for the working of the mind, PED says. Citta depends on an object. L: My contention is that that feeling conditioned the arising of dislike via latent tendencies without dislike actually co-existing with the feeling at any time. N: The javanacittas maybe cittas with aversion and dislike arising in the same sense-door process. But they arise after the body-consciousness with painful feeling. L: Abhidhamma substantiates this in that the object of consciousness is not present in a mind-door process. I would say it is also not present in a 5-door process, but that's a bit of a heresy. This theory also presents some difficulties for satipatthana and its objects of mindfulness, but I think these are just linguistic difficulties. N: No problems. When a dhammas has just fallen away, its characteristic can still appear to sati. The processes are so fast. This can be verified. Hearing falls away, but its characteristic of nama experiencing sound can be the object of mindfulness, arising shortly afterwards. L: You may say,"Aha! I can detect a difference between awareness and hardness." I would say this awareness is attention or some such co-arising cetasika. In fact there are numerous co-arising cetasikas and, as such, co-arising simultaneous experiences. N: I think that Howard meant by awareness cognizing an object, not sati. As you say, there are numerous co-arising cetasikas and, as such, co-arising simultaneous experiences. They all share the same object with citta. Contact also shares it, while it performs its function of contacting the object, thereby assisting citta and the other cetasikas. Nina. 41718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 135 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 03-02-2005 02:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Vism: "But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of > associated states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so > on." > This suggests to me that remembering is slightly different from > recognition. N: The Expositor's translation seems to be clearer: The Pali has: accaayika/ kamm/aanussara.na/adiisu urgent/ work/ remember/ and so on in remembering an urgent work. One may be forgetful that there is urgent work to do, such as lazy labourers but the chief makes them work. Evenso volition, the coordinator, sets the associated cetasikas in motion. It stirs or drives them to do their work. The cetasika saññaa is quite different, it marks and remembers, recognizes what was marked. L: Perception doesn't need volition to recognize a dhamma. N: It does, because cetanaa coordinates the work of the accompamying cetasikas, and thus also the work of saññaa. We should not think of volition as we use it in conventional language. It helps to think in the way of functions. L:Are we still saying that sanna is what does the remembering (recollection)? N: Yes. See above. Nina. 41719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134, pleasant, unpleasant object. Hi Howard and Larry, op 03-02-2005 14:39 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> Larry: This does't clarify. There are no unpleasant rupas. There are, >> however, undesirable rupas. >> > ==================== Howard: My understanding is that Abhidhamma says there *are* unpleasant rupas. N: let us go to the Pali to solve this. Rupas experienced by citta are either a desirable object, i.t.thaaramma.na or an undesirable object, ani.t.thaaramma.na. Thus: i.t.tha: pleasant, dear desirable, agreeable. Piya (dear) ruupa. Or the opposite: ani.t.tha. It does not matter what English word you guys use. It amounts to the same. Nina. 41720 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Only two reactions - equanimity and craving? In a message dated 2/1/2005 5:59:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, plnao@j... writes: This threefold craving is not the same as the threefold craving for sensual pleasures, becoming and annihilation, right? Is there any parallel between them? (I've never really understood what the craving for annihilation means.) But we know that at the time of aversion, there are cittas rooted in moha and dosa, right? There isn't lobha at that time. So again I'm thinking chronoligically and getting confused. Are there also cittas with all three roots? You're saying that "craving for discontinuance" *is* aversion, right? Again, that confuses me, because aversion is dosa and craving is lobha. (or is craving tanha, which is different from lobha?) Do lobha and dosa arise together in the case of 3) above. That's not possible, is it? Sorry for the jumble of questions. I really should look at these kind of things in the morning. Sleepy now. Metta, Phil Hi Phil The three types of craving I suggested are indeed parallel to the traditional 3 types of craving: for sensual pleasures, becoming and annihilation. I prefer the method of analysis I posted because I believe it ties the process more directly to "feeling" than the traditional interpretation does. Re: the traditional interpretation and putting sensual pleasure craving aside... the craving for existence occurs in minds that see existence as pleasurable. This applies to most of us. The craving for anihilation would occurs in minds that see existence as unpleasurable. This is what causes suicide. However, I don't think the traditional interpretation gets to the root of the matter. It seems to miss the direct correlation to feeling. Feeling is the cause for craving according to the 12 Fold Chain. Yes, I am saying that "craving for discontinuance" is aversion. Craving is a very subtle and initial stage of wanting a result. If pain is experienced...the mind wants it to end. That wanting to end is aversion. The fact that I put "want" in that description perhaps does indicate its association with lobha. These states of craving are all mutually supported and ultimately based on ignorance of conditionality. The main thing is to see them as states that arise, alter, and cease in accordance with conditions. This makes the mind see states as conditioned, impermanent, no-self, and to realize that attachment to THAT, is just a cause of suffering. TG 41721 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:33pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. - I am glad that you gave the Sekha-patipada Sutta a good look before responding to my message. [Note: Sekha = trainer, or Ariya below the Arahat level. Patipada = road, path.] KH (in #41695): In the sutta you have quoted, Ananda was told by the Buddha to, "speak about the person who follows the practice for one in training." So it is about the person more than the practice. The person spoken of is a disciple of the noble ones, so he is at least a sotapanna (but not yet and arahant). So, in summary, I think this sutta describes certain monks who have already attained enlightenment. It is not a description of the preliminary practice. T: Good points, although not totally convincing! We should carefully notice that the discourse was given at the time when the Kapilavatthu Sakyans (lay Buddhists) were still in the hall with the bhikkhus( who were probably sekhas and/or arahats). "Then the Blessed One -- having spent most of the night instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the Kapilavatthu Sakyans with a Dhamma talk -- said to Ven. Ananda, 'Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. ...' " Question #1: Were these lay-people sekha already? I don't think so, Ken. Otherwise, the sutta would have stated so. I think the Buddha knew that after He gave them the basic "Dhamma talk", these lay-Buddhists were then ready for the Sekha Patipada. So He asked the Venerable Ananda to proceed. T: Further, if the patipada was supposed to be for disciples who were already sekha, then why did the Venerable Ananda talk about several mundane requisites below the Ariya's lokuttara level such as the following: 1) "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening" 2) "... knows moderation in eating, is devoted to wakefulness..." 3) " He feels shame at [the thought of engaging in] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct". 4) "He feels concern for [the suffering that results from] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct". 5) "He is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago." Question #2: Based on the above evidence, isn't it reasonable for us to be self-confident enough to think that the Sekha Patipada is also a great path for lay-Buddhists with strong conviction (like us) to follow ? ((:>|) Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Thanks for your question: > > ------------------------ > T: > Please comment on the following practice that I have used as a > guidance. Is it wrong or not? > ------------------------ > > I don't think we need to single out any particular practice as a > guidance, nor to decide what is the right or wrong practice for us. > There is no "us" so it can't be necessary for us to choose - > conditions take care of that. > > In the sutta you have quoted, Ananda was told by the Buddha > to, "speak about the person who follows the practice for one in > training." So it is about the person more than the practice. The > person spoken of is a disciple of the noble ones, so he is at least > a sotapanna (but not yet and arahant). Furthermore, Ananda begins > with the words, "There is the case where a disciple of the noble > ones is . . .," so he is not describing every disciple of the noble > ones. I think he is describing the case of the most esteemed > disciple - the one who practises jhana and vipassana in tandem. > > The Satipatthana sutta is similar: it begins with the case of that > same elite of monks - the monk who takes breath as the object of > jhana and then takes jhana citta as the object of satipatthana. Then > the sutta describes the more common objects of satipatthana that are > experienced by all disciples. > > So, in summary, I think this sutta describes certain monks who have > already attained enlightenment. It is not a description of the > preliminary practice. > > Ken H > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > > > [MN53: Sekha-patipada Sutta] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn053.html > > > > 41722 From: Philip Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: Anicca as characteristic Hi Joop, and all. Thanks for this post. It got me thinking about anatta which is always good. Thinking about anatta conditions a deeper understanding of anatta (hopefully!) > Nyatiloka: > "anicca: 'impermanent' is the first of the three characteristics of > existence. It is from the fact of impermanence that, in most texts, > the other two characteristics, suffering (dukkha) and not-self > anatt?E, are derived. Yes, in many suttas the Buddha starts by asking "Is form permanent on impermanent." But does this necessarily mean that the others are "derived" from impermanence? I can see how suffering comes from impermanece - there cannot be lasting satisfaction in that which is impermanent. But does annata follow in the same way? In the suttas the Buddha asks if is it fitting to take that which is impermanent and suffering and think 'this is mine, this is what I am, this is my self." The monk says no, it is not a fitting. But does that begin to get at what anatta is? I don't think so. Perhaps that's why we find that two of the five books (vaggas?) of Samyutta Nikaya are devoted to the khandas and to the six sense bases. The khandas and the six sense bases are all about anatta. Abhidhamma is all about anatta, isn't it? What is the study of cetasikas, for example, except to develop our understanding that there is no self. And anatta is so subtle and difficult to penetrate that different approaches, different classifications are all ways at helping. Isn't impermanence perhaps easier to understand to begin with, thus it comes first in those suttas? (Of course, impermanence isn't as easy to understand as it might appear. "We wish to ignore impermanence" is a line I wrote down from somewhere.) (snip) > In the 'Useful posts' of DSG the term 'impermanence' has 17 entries, > and anatta more then the triple of it. Why ? See above. Perhaps it's of less import to discuss impermanence because even though it is not as easy to understand as we might think, it is also not as profound and subtle an issue as anatta? Understanding of it comes and goes, it's so fleeting. So we talk and talk about it, never able to get at it in words, but having faith that discussing it can condition deeper understanding. > In a discussion about the concept "emptiness" some weeks ago Kel > said: "some really like anicca and some anatta" (to contemplate); > some DSG members are rather into anatta. And then one gets into > explaining and expounding everything based on that preference." > I agreed with him and concluded that it is also partly a question of > personality which principle is taken central. This is interesting. I wouldn't say "personality", but I know what you mean. In "Roots of Good and Evil" Nanamoli Thera writes (or quotes a passage, I forget which) about how in people different roots (hetus) are predominate based on the rebirth citta (?) Some people are more strongly rooted in greed and less rooted in hatred, for example, and any number of permutations based on the 6 roots. He also quotes from the Atthasalini about the nature of the wholesome roots - when there is alobha (non-greed) there is likely to be better understanding of impermanence, and vice-versa. When there is amoha (wisdom) there will be better understanding of not-self, and vice versa. So our interest in the characteristics might be conditioned by the preponderance within the roots we are born with? Something like that? Oops. Gotta run. Hi in passing to Sarah, Nina, Rob K and TG. Wanted to respond to your posts today but can't. Thanks for your helpful feedback. Metta, Phil 41723 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 4:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Larry: "Btw, how do you know rupa is different from consciousness?" ---------------------------------------- Howard: " That's how it appears to me. Also, given what I mean by 'consciousness', namely the experiential presence of a dhamma, it is *definitionally* clear to me. To me it is straightforward that the occurrence or presence of something is not the same as that thing. The presence of a thought is not the thought. The presence of anger is not the anger. But they are inseparably co-occurring." Hi Howard, Is anger an experience and presence another exerience? What is anger without presence, subconscious anger? Larry ps: Sorry I was so short on the other questions. I was in a rush and hoping that Nina would weigh-in with the voice of authority. Is there anything else to discuss? I still maintain the views I expressed. Larry 41724 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Vism.XIV,136 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 136. (iii)-(v) What should be said about 'applied thought', 'sustained thought' and 'happiness' has already been said in the commentary on the first jhana in the Description of the Earth Kasina (Ch. IV,88-98). 41725 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: the Five Indriyas, what is sati. Dear Nina, Your golden message (# 41713) is very special to me -- the best ever. The idea (view, ditthi) of the 'self' who "directs sati" and the subtle, but wrong view that "sati has to arise without interruption" have become clear to me for the first time. [Well, now I realize that I wasn't 'that impossible' to be taught!] T: > Say, now you are walking on a street. How do you take a nama > element or a rupa element as the object of awareness in every > moment while walking? N: Sati arises or it does not. If we think of having to take a nama and rupa, at every moment, it seems to me like an idea of: I am directing sati or sati has to arise without interruption. Elements arise because of conditions and we should learn to see them as without a self directing them. Otherwise we shall not understand anatta. T: Very well said, Nina, very well said! After I had finished reading the above wise remarks of yours, there was no thought for a moment. Some deep contemplation went on for a while without any thinking in words -- it was, maybe, just a clear understanding that arose. Quite possibly, this first understanding of anatta has shortened a few million future rebirths from the remaining samsara. Thank you very much, Nina. T: >How do you know when a characteristic appears now (how does it > become manifest)? N: First we have to know when there is sati and when not. We listen to the Dhamma and consider it, and then without trying or planning, sati can arise unexpectantly. The conditions are listening and considering. As soon as we are thinking about sati, there is thinking, not direct awareness. This may not answer your question completely. It is helpful for all of us to know what is not sati but thinking. T: I have passed the first test on "there is no 'I' who directs sati". But the second test as given above is more difficult : sati has to arise "unexpectantly" through "listening and considering". In other words, "sati is not thinking about sati; sati is direct awareness". Let's get back to the walking example again. Many times when we walk we may not be mindful of the walking -- i.e. a sati with the walking (leg movements) as its object does not arise. Now, suppose that suddenly while walking with no sati, we realize that we should be mindful of the walking. That realization is a sati (recollection), but it is not the kind of sati we would want in walking meditation. To condition the right kind of sati to arise, I would take my awareness from any outside preoccupations (wandering thoughts) and 'place' a focused attention on the walking. Sometimes, by "comprehending" the rupa (materiality) during walking as stated in the Visuddhimagga is useful for continuously sustaining sati and sampajanna on the leg movements. But it seems to me that there is a large degree of thinking involved in the Ven. Buddhaghosa's method. Let me present a few quotes to support my point. " Next he divides a single footstep into six parts as 'lifting up', 'shifting forward', 'shifting sideways', 'lowering down', 'placing down', and 'fixing down'. " VM XX, 62 "He attributes the three characteristics to materiality according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of these six parts into which he has thus divided. ... ... wherever they arise, there they cease stage by stage, section by section, term by term, each without reaching the next part: therefore they are impermanent, painful, not-self " VM XX, 64-65. I would appreciate your thought on the VM's method above: is there sati with such walking meditation? Or is there only thinking and comprehending? N: Because first the different characteristics of nama and rupa (visesa lakkhana) have to be known by insight. Take the first stage: directly realizing the difference between the characteristics of nama and of rupa. ... ... But if hardness can be realized as rupa, for example, it is a step towards anatta. It is rupa, not a thing or person. It is rupa, that means, it is anatta. Anatta can become just a little bit clearer. T: I think the VM's example above is a practice for conditioning an insight about the materiality's characteristics to appear. I believe this walking meditation is also useful as "a step toward anatta" like you said. Do you think so too? T: > How do you deal with > distracted thoughts or thinking that interferes with the satipatthana? N: There is mostly thinking and very little awareness, but that does not matter. Thinking does not interfere, we should not try not to have thinking, then there is again an idea of self who directs. T: I understand now that we "should not try not to have thinking" in order to avoid the wrong idea of self. But don't you think that thinking does interfere with the walking meditation in the VM's example? When a thought occurs, then the attention will slip from the sati's object of awareness. And we will have to condition sati to arise and stay with the object again. N: The Tipitaka is always excellent, it is the Dhamma that is our teacher after the Buddha's passing away. An exhortation to satipatthana is implied in all the suttas, and they also remind us not to forget our duties such as serving parents, helping others, and this together with satipatthana. T: Absolutely, Nina, absolutely! Thank you for all the great answers you have given, and I also greatly appreciate your kind words at the beginning of the mail. Kindest regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 03-02-2005 04:44 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > .... With your permission, I > > hope to continue to discuss the Dhamma with you until we can resolve > > the difficulty, or you tell me to stop! 41726 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 7:17:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Larry: "Btw, how do you know rupa is different from consciousness?" > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > " That's how it appears to me. > Also, given what I mean by 'consciousness', namely the experiential > presence of a dhamma, it is *definitionally* clear to me. > To me it is straightforward > that the occurrence or presence of something is not the same as that > thing. The presence of a thought is not the thought. The presence of > anger is not the anger. But they are inseparably co-occurring." > > Hi Howard, > > Is anger an experience and presence another exerience? What is anger > without presence, subconscious anger? ------------------------------------- Howard: Anger is an experience and its experiential presence is a distinguishable but co-occurring event. There is no anger without its presence (and no presence of anger without the anger). But at the time that anger is present (i.e., experienced), only the anger is experienced, not the experiencing of the anger. The experiencing is not, itself, experienced. The sword does not cut itself. The consciousness of the anger is an event that is not known until immediately after the fact through the mind door when we recall that there just was anger. It is only then, with that fresh memory, that we realize that anger had been experienced. But that realization is not a direct experiencing of consciousness. In fact, I suspect that there may not be any direct experiencing of consciousness. ----------------------------------- > > Larry > ps: Sorry I was so short on the other questions. I was in a rush and > hoping that Nina would weigh-in with the voice of authority. Is there > anything else to discuss? I still maintain the views I expressed. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I think this is a very difficult matter. I'm really not at all sure of what the status of consciousness is. Consciousness seems to me to be almost nothing. It seems to me that there are just experiences arising and ceasing. Each arising of an experience we can *call* the experiencing of it, the "being conscious of it". There may not be anything more to say than that. --------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41727 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Howard: "Anger is an experience and its experiential presence is a distinguishable but co-occurring event. There is no anger without its presence (and no presence of anger without the anger). But at the time that anger is present (i.e., experienced), only the anger is experienced, not the experiencing of the anger. The experiencing is not, itself, experienced. The sword does not cut itself. The consciousness of the anger is an event that is not known until immediately after the fact through the mind door when we recall that there just was anger. It is only then, with that fresh memory, that we realize that anger had been experienced. But that realization is not a direct experiencing of consciousness. In fact, I suspect that there may not be any direct experiencing of consciousness." Hi Howard, I don't know what you mean by "presence" but in abhidhamma anger is a consciousness. Could presence be a cetasika? Basically we could say experience is nama, with nibbana being an unknown factor. That is why in saying hardness is consciousness all I am saying is hardness is experience. There could also be an unexperienced materiality that conditions the arising of this experience. Who knows? I think the crux of our problem is in determining the status of referencing. Say I pinch my finger and aversion arises. Aversion arises in reference to pinch. Dislike dislikes pinch, in some sense. Possibly millions of mind-door processes could arise in reference to this one pinch. I've been trying to get rid of reference as a legitimate reality but suppose we keep it. Vive le reference! What do we have? Emptiness. That's fine with me. I had forgot that in the end all there is is conventional reality and its absolute emptiness. Larry 41728 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/3/05 10:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "Anger is an experience and its experiential presence is a > distinguishable but co-occurring event. There is no anger without its > presence (and no presence of anger without the anger). But at the time > that anger is present (i.e., experienced), only the anger is > experienced, not the experiencing of the anger. The experiencing is not, > itself, experienced. The sword does not cut itself. The consciousness of > the anger is an event that is not known until immediately after the fact > through the mind door when we recall that there just was anger. It is > only then, with that fresh memory, that we realize that anger had been > experienced. But that realization is not a direct experiencing of > consciousness. In fact, I suspect that there may not be any direct > experiencing of consciousness." > > Hi Howard, > > I don't know what you mean by "presence" but in abhidhamma anger is a > consciousness. Could presence be a cetasika? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: You don't know what I mean by 'presence', and I don't know what you mean by consciousness! ;-) Are you saying that dosa is a form of vi~n~nana in Abhidhamma? That doesn't seem right to me. By 'presence' I mean existing as an experiential phenomenon. When hardness arises it is present, when it ceases it is not. When it is present, we say that we are aware of it. Awareness of an experience is not much of anything - it is just the momentary existing of the experience. --------------------------------------- > > Basically we could say experience is nama, with nibbana being an unknown > factor. That is why in saying hardness is consciousness all I am saying > is hardness is experience. There could also be an unexperienced > materiality that conditions the arising of this experience. Who knows? > ------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get it, Larry. What, then, are rupas? If hardness and warmth and sights and sounds etc are namas, then "Where have all the rupas gone? Long time passing." ;-)) -------------------------------------- > > I think the crux of our problem is in determining the status of > referencing. Say I pinch my finger and aversion arises. Aversion arises > in reference to pinch. Dislike dislikes pinch, in some sense. Possibly > millions of mind-door processes could arise in reference to this one > pinch. > > I've been trying to get rid of reference as a legitimate reality but > suppose we keep it. Vive le reference! What do we have? Emptiness. > That's fine with me. > > I had forgot that in the end all there is is conventional reality and > its absolute emptiness. > > Larry > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41729 From: Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Howard: "Awareness of an experience is not much of anything - it is just the momentary existing of the experience." Hi Howard, I agree. I wouldn't even say "awareness of" except in the sense of "perception of" (sanna). As for dosa being a consciousness maybe Nina could say something. I've changed my mind about rupa. However anyone wants to think about it, I'm agreeable. Convention is an agreement and agreement makes a convention. And convention is wonderfully empty. Larry 41730 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 9:29pm Subject: Re: for James --- > Thank you very much for this contribution. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > =========== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie > wrote: > > > > from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation and commentary > summary > > ('Guide') known as Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma--VII, 30 > > "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view > > (sammaaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding > the > > Four Noble Truths. Right intention (sammasmakappa) is the > cetasika of > > initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, > > and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three > > abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. > Right > > mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. > Right > > concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta > > system." =============== In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Connie (and Ken O., Htoo) - > > This commentary summary is very concise and should be read over > several times so that confusions concerning the true meanings of the > Path factors will be put to rest. > ========= Dear Tep and Connie, I am not sure if the comments by Venerable Bodhi should be considered so highly in this case. The section he is writing about in the Abhidhammathasangaha is detailing various momentary phenomena. It is true that one type of samma samadhi is mundane jhana but I see nowhere in the section to indicate that Anuruddha was restricting samma samadhi to this. In fact it seems unlikely he would be. The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth" It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of mundane Jhanas. Thus the mudane jhanas - although classified as samma samadhi are also classified as leading to accumulation (of rebirth). The start of the next chapter is where it discusses the eight-fold path that leads out of samsara. The Discourse on lokuttara (transendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momenatry flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes[. This type of jhana arises only for a flash and it is entirely different from mundane jhana. Part of the confusion about this subject is that many suttas are addressed to those monks who had mastery of jhana, they could enter and exit at will, many levels of jhana. They were the cream of the Buddha's disciples. And of these ones they can - immediately after exiting jhana- have awareness of the factors of teh various jhanas they were in. And so use jhana as a base for development of teh eightfold path leading out of samsara. According to the texts these most developed disciples can no longer exist. Another commenst on venerables Bodhi's translation of sammasankappa as right INTENTION. All these pali terms do not have exact english equivalents so there are always problems, but Intention seems an unfortunate choice of term for sankappa. Sankappa is the mental factor (cetasika) vitakka and Bodhi translates it as 'initial application' at times . So why use Intention? For cetana he uses volition. What is the difference between volition and Intention? RobertK 41731 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:47pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 116 - Concentration/ekaggataa (l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.6 Concentration (ekaggataa)] ***** Questions i Are ekaggatå and samådhi the same cetasika? ii Can there be samådhi with akusala citta? iii What is the difference between sammå-samådhi in samatha and sammå-samådhi in vipassanå? iv If we try to concentrate on sound is that the way to know sound as it is? ***** [Ch.6 Concentration(ekaggataa)finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 41732 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:15pm Subject: photo album and gmail accounts Hi Friends, Kel, thank you for putting your friendly pic in the photo album. I hope you don’t mind, but we’ve moved it into the album of members. Perhaps Kel can inspire others to follow his example. The album can be found on the homepage. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst In a message of Christine’s, with her usual wit, she gives further information/advice: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33141 She ends by saying: “We'd all love to see you! The albums remind me of the metta sutta ... "Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near" .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us! “ Metta, Sarah p.s “gmail.com” offer .............................. Hugo sent us a note off-list which I’m tagging on here – pls contact him OFF-LIST for any more info or an invitation. His add here should read 'at' gmail.com. Thx Hugo, for thinking of us. "Hugo" eklektik@g... >I have a few GMAIL invitations available and I would like to offer them to members of DSG. I think that GMAIL is an excellent tool to manage email conversations, specially for list as active as DSG. <…> More info: http://gmail.google.com/gmail/help/start.html The service is free, but you can not sign up, you need to be invited. If you think that it is proper to make this offer to the mailing list, please forward it to DSG, if not, no problem, no hard feelings (.....mmmmmm...what is hard?.....what are feelings?....., but I digress).< ======== 41733 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:30pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, You asked if I thought a certain practice was right or wrong. I didn't make my answer clear enough. --------------------------- T: > Good points, although not totally convincing! Question #1: Were these lay-people sekha already? I don't think so, ----------------- I wanted to point out that the Dhamma was not a set of instructions we are expected to carry out. The audience to the Sekha-patipada Sutta were given a description of a certain type of ariyan learner and his accomplishments. Their role was to listen and learn. Some of them may have subsequently followed the way of samatha-vipassana and attained the psychic powers and insights described in the discourse. Others may have become 'liberated by wisdom alone' and so attained just the insights. In either case, they had to understand that there was no self at the helm - there were only conditioned dhammas. Some suttas describe the qualities of the Tathagata and the way of the Bodhisatta. Obviously, we are not expected to treat them as a set of instructions. I feel sure the same applies equally (but less obviously) to all suttas. --------------- T: > Further, if the patipada was supposed to be for disciples who were already sekha, then why did the Venerable Ananda talk about several mundane requisites below the Ariya's lokuttara level such as the following: --------------- As I have been trying to explain, I don't think it matters who the audience was. However, I like the points you have set out: -------------------------- > 1) "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening" --------------------------- Needless to say, you can't have conviction by deliberately choosing to have it. It comes with understanding. ----------------------------------- > 2) "... knows moderation in eating, is devoted to wakefulness..." ---------------------------------- These are not things that greedy, sleepy people can deliberately know and be devoted to. True moderation is an attribute of people who are established in virtue and who understand the benefits of moderation. --------------------------- > 3) " He feels shame at [the thought of engaging in] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct". 4) "He feels concern for [the suffering that results from] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct". 5) "He is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago." --------------------------- How can we control what we feel and what we remember? This is clearly not a set of instructions. ------------------------------- Question #2: Based on the above evidence, isn't it reasonable for us to be self-confident enough to think that the Sekha Patipada is also a great path for lay-Buddhists with strong conviction (like us) to follow ? -------------------------------- I am tempted to say that the way of bare insight would suit me better, but that brings in the idea of self. The key is to understand the Dhamma: the rest will follow naturally. Ken H 41734 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cetasikas'- Concentration/ekaggataa (e) Hi Ken O, I think you give a very good summary here – just as I understand: --- Ken O wrote: > > Hi Nina and Sarah > > A Sujin is right manodvaravajjana is just a mind door adverting, it > is ahetu, kusala and akusala only happens in javana process, that is > why kamma for the next rebirth also arise until it is completely cut > off by enlightement. Yoniso can be said the function of two > cetasikas, the manisikara as well as panna. When cetasika arise in a > kusala citta, so many cetasika arise, it is like a broil, I think > only Buddha and some other Arahants could pinpoint them but that also > must be in another thought process because when it is arisen, the > object is not the kusala javana cittas but the object of the kusala > javana cittas that it is paying attention to as citta cannot cognize > itself. > > The arisen of kusala citta must be condition by accumulations just > like the arisen of akusala citta must be conditioned by latency. … S: Well put. There’s wise (yoniso) attention with all kusala cittas. In the context of satipatthana or vipassana, panna is definitely there too as you say. Metta, Sarah ======== 41735 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika Dear Nina, This set of notes with all your extra comments and detail on phassa (contact) was very good - especially as there has been so much discusion on this topic. The similes are very helpful too: --- nina wrote: > > Vis. XIV, 134 and Tiika > The Tiika refers to a simile taken from the ŒQuestions of Milinda¹ (I, > 60) > about two hands that are clapping against each other, comparing their > collision with contact. The Expositor (p. 144) elaborates on this, > stating > that one hand represents the eye, the other hand visible object and > their > collision contact. It also mentions the simile of two rams that fight > and > two cymbals that are struck. These similes illustrate that contact has > the > characterisits of touch and the function of impact when it arises in a > sense-door process. The Expositor explains that contact arising in a > mind-door process only has the characteristic of touch, not the function > of > impact. In the mind-door process there is not the impact of ruupa on > another > ruupa, the sense-base. > We have to remember that phassa is mental, no matter whether it arises > in a > sense-door process or a mind-door process. The Tiika adds that contact > of > the citta with the object should be seen as only cetasika dhamma. Thus, > phassa is cetasika, it is mental. .... S: I particularly like the one about the two hands clapping - representing the eye-base and the visible object and the contact as they come together. Also the two rams fighting. As you stress, it's important to remember that the contact in the Tipitaka always refers to *mental* contact, the cetasika accompanying the seeing consciousness (and other cittas) which experience the visible object in this case. Lots of good reminders in your India series from the discussions too: "The purpose of the teachings is not to stop thinking, clinging to persons or worrying about them, but to understand such moments as dhammas arising because of their own conditions." Metta, Sarah ======== 41736 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Pilgrimage India / Sarah Hi Phil, All the comments in your reply to me were right on target too, I thought. Always a pleasure to read your posts. --- Philip wrote: > > Ph: "Signs and details" - that comes up in the suttas, doesn't it. > I think dwelling on signs and details is the condition of the > hindrances and so much akusala. So we need to get at the essence of > things. The elements. Easier said than done, of course. ... Hope you get the 'sun-filled classromm with charming students' for the next session. I can relate very easily to your examples;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 41737 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Howard (James & All), You raised many good points in your post to me on the Honeyball Sutta. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > It seems to me that whenever the topic is "concepts", all sorts > of > language-use problems come to the fore. … S: I think so too. Lots of tangles and overgrowth to clear before one can see what the fundamental differences (if any) really are. .... > > >James: Concepts are conditioned by the mind's tendency to mental > > >proliferation (In Pali: Papanca). From SN 18 "The Honeyball": > > >"Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The > > >meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > > >is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one > > >perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one > > >mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as > > >the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation > > >beset a man with respect to past, future, and present forms > > >cognizable through the eye. > > >(…Continued for the other sense spheres). … > > S: Good sutta to quote in this context. > > > > What I understand to be conditioned are the dhammas (realities) such <…> > > Howard: > I don't think this matter is so simple. In part there is the > question > of the Pali involved and its English translation. For starters, what > *exactly* > are "perceptions and notions"? … S: I’m referring to notes given by the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl: ‘perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferations’ (papa~nca-sa~n~na-sankhaa). “The commentaries identify the springs of this proliferation as the three factors-craving, conceit, and views- [S: wrong views of course here] on account of which the mind ‘embellishes’ experience by interpreting it in terms of ‘mine’, ‘I’, and ‘my self’.” S: In other words, we are again referring to the perversions of sanna, citta and ditthi. Such thinking with perverted remembrance and view, such as taking what is not self for self, what is impermanent for permanent and so on refer to various cittas and cetasikas. As the translators point out, papa~nca is close in meaning to ma~n~nanaa (conceiving) which we read about in the Mulapariyaya Sutta. “The Pali verb ‘conceives’ (ma~n`nati), from the root man, ‘to think,’ is often used in the Pali suttas to mean distortional thinking – thought that ascribes to its object characteristics and a significance derived not from the object itself, but from its own subjective imaginings……According to the commentaries, the activity of conceiving is governed by three defilements, which accounts for the different ways it comes to manifestation – craving (ta.nhaa), conceit (maana), and views (di.t.thi). “MA paraphrases this text (M1) thus: ‘Having perceived earth [S: the rupa, pathavi (hardness/solidity/earth] with a perverted perception, the ordinary person afterwards conceives it – construes or discriminates it – through the gross proliferating tendencies (papa~nca) of craving, conceit, and views, which are here called ‘conceivings’…He apprehends it in diverse ways contrary [to reality].” Back to the expression, ‘perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferations’ (papa~nca-sa~n~na-sankhaa), apparently ‘MA (the commentary) glosses ankhaa by ko.t.thaasa, ‘portion’, and says that sa~n`naa is either perception associated with papa~nca or papa~nca itself.’ I can’t comment further on the Pali terms, but I certainly understand that the sutta is discussing various paramattha dhammas …. H: >Perceptions sound like the products of > sa~n~na, which may make them (relatively) elementary ideas or > proto-ideas, and > notions sound like full-blown ideas, which are alleged products of > sankharic > processing. … S: The perceptions are definitely referring to sa~n~na itself. From a note in Nanamoli’s ms: “…Feeling and perception are inseparable (MN43:9). What is perceived as ‘this’ is thought about in its differences and is thus diversified from ‘that’ and from ‘me’. This diversification – involving craving for form, wrong view about permanence of form, etc, and the conceit ‘I am’ – leads to preoccupation with calculating the desirability of past and present forms with a view to obtaining desirable forms in the future.” … H: >I personally have no problem with the idea of such mental > constructs as > proto-ideas and ideas any more than that of feelings and emotions. My > only > hesitation is that as I examine the thinking process, I never can seem > to find > these. I only seem to vaguely sense them. Of course this may be a defect > in the > degree of detail I can pick up due to lack of fineness and intensity of > attention and mindfulness. …. S: Good points. Even if there is no awareness of sanna or no differentiation of sanna and thinking, we know it must be there, arising with each citta and marking its object, whether in a wholesome or unwholesome way or neither, such as when there is seeing or hearing and it just marks the visible object or sound. As I mentioned to Phil, if there’s just a moment or two of awareness,a t that moment (whether of seeing, visible object or thinking, for example) the attending to ‘signs and details’ and all the various stories and proliferations about past, future and so on, stop momentarily. And then, as he said, it continues again as usual;-). …. H:> Sarah, under proliferations you include wrong view as a nama. > What > kind of paramattha dhamma do you mean by that exactly? The usual sense > of the > English 'wrong view' is a kind of incorrect *concept* or *notion* or > *idea*. But > if these are nonexistent, then what *is* wrong view? … S: In the texts, wrong view is usually just referred to as di.t.thi. It’s a mental factor that arises with some cittas rooted in lobha (attachment). It’s eradicated at the stage of stream-entry. It grasps its object wrongly. For example, when we think we really see a computer, there is wrong view arising at that moment as well as perversion of sanna and citta. If we just feel attached to the computer but without any view about it, then no wrong view arises with the attachment and other perversions. [see ‘wrong view’ in U.P. for more] > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Now here, when you speak of "the objects of the proliferations" > we get > close to another problem in "concept language", namely the systematic > conflating of alleged mental phenomena (the momentary, mind-constructed > phenomena <…> > --------------------------------------- S: For example, the concept of computer is the object of thinking at such a moment. This is regardless of whether or not there are a bunch of rupas which make up what we call computer. What is seen is visible object, what is touched is hardness, what is thought about or imagined is a computer, with or without any wrong view, attachment or conceit. …. > > >131 "A Single Excellent Night": > > > > > >Let not a person revive the past > > >Or on the future build his hopes; > > >For the past has been left behind > > >And the future has not been reached. > > >Instead with insight let him see > > >Each presently arisen state; 1212 <..> > > S: the Pali for state is dhamma. Each dhamma (nama and rupa) to be > seen > > with insight (vipassanaa) at the present moment. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > The problem with that reading, as I see it, Sarah, is that in the > > suttas the Buddha often uses 'dhamma' the way we informally use 'thing' > in > everyday English. That makes it not trivially determinable in which > sense the Buddha > is using 'dhamma' in a particular context. Sometime it is clear that he > means > khandhic elements, and sometimes not. > -------------------------------------- S: I agree it depends on the context. But whenever it’s in the context of vipassanaa or satipatthana, it always refers to dhammas (realities or paramattha dhammas) which is usally the case. [See ‘Dhamma-meanings in U.P. for more perhaps] Interestingly, as this sutta is also being discussed, in a continuation of Nanamoli’s note above to the Honeyball Sutta, he adds: “Perhaps the key to the interpretation of this passage (quoted above by James) is Ven Mahaa Kaccaana’s explanation of the Bhaddekeratta verses in MN133. There too delight in the elements of cognition plays a prominent role in causing bondage, and the elaboration of the verses in terms of the three periods of time links up with the reference to the three times in this sutta.” S: Wahtever we read, the stress is on understanding and being aware of present namas and rupas, khandhas, dhatus (elements) etc. These are the only *existing* dhammas. This is why concepts about the past or future can never be the object of insight. … > Howard: > Now here I see two problematical things going on. > One of them is attempting to say something meaningful about a > non-existent! If there are no such things as concepts, then there are no > concepts that > that are objects of anything. … S: In an absolute sense, nothing meaningful can be said about concepts as they are non-existent or merely thought about. Whatever is imagined, it is only the thinking and accompanying mental factors that are real at such a time and can be directly understood. This post is already long and I have to go out. So I’ll leave it here, but please repost any of your further comments if they haven’t been addressed. Metta, Sarah ====== 41738 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:36pm Subject: The Cause of Enlightenment ... !!! Friends: Step by Step Towards Mental Perfection: Question: What is the Cause of perfect Enlightening Release through Knowledge ? Answer: Understanding is the Cause of Enlightening Release through Knowledge ! Question: What then is the Cause of this profound & discriminating Understanding ? Answer: The Seven Links to Awakening is the Cause of such deep Understanding ! Question: What then is the Cause of these advantageous Seven Links to Awakening ? Answer: The 4 Foundations of Awareness is Causing the Seven Links to Awakening ! Question: What then is the Cause of these essential Four Foundations of Awareness ? Answer: The 10 acts of Right Mental, Verbal, & Bodily Behaviour is the proximate Cause of these fundamental Four Foundations of Awareness ! Question: What then is the Cause of such Right Mental, Verbal, & Bodily Behaviour ? Answer: Control of the Senses is Causing Right Mental, Verbal, & Bodily Behaviour ! Question: What then is the capable Cause of such powerful Control of the Senses ? Answer: Awareness & Clear Comprehension is such Cause of Control of the Senses ! Question: What then is the Cause of such acute Awareness & Clear Comprehension ? Answer: Rational Attention is the Cause of this Awareness & Clear Comprehension ! Question: What then is the Cause of Rational Attention towards the origin of phenomena ? Answer: The Faith & Confidence of Conviction is the Cause of such Rational Attention ! Question: What then is the Cause of the Faith & Confidence of such solid Conviction ? Answer: Hearing & Reading this True & Exact Buddha-Dhamma is Causing such Faith ! Question: What then is the Cause of access to such very True & Exact Buddha-Dhamma ? Answer: Following that Very Good Man is the Cause of Hearing such Buddha-Dhamma ! Yeah, following that Very Man is thee cause... Source: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya V [114-5] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. 41739 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:09am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Ken H. - > > KH: > > How would you have responded had you been one of the merchants > > mentioned in the suttas (I think I can find the exact sutta if you > > want): They asked the Buddha how they should live their lives, and > > his answer was, ""As to the teaching of the Tathagata, profound, > > deep in meaning, concerned with anatta . . ., from time to time we > > shall spend our days learning it." That is how you should live your > > lives > > T: This sutta deserves a careful study, Ken. If you can give the title and > reference (e.g. MN, AN, or whatever, with the number) then I would be > thankful. My opinion based on the above quote is that merchants those > days traveled a lot and did not have time (or strong saddha) to > practice earnestly. Therefore, they only had to slowly and occasionally > chew the Teachings (that are profound/deep in meaning/concerned > with anatta) and be contented at that level of study. > ============= Dear tep, The 500 Merchants were all sotapanna and praised by the Buddha 'It is well gained by you, Dhammadina!You have gained the fruit of stream entry'. In fact when the Buddha suggested that they should study such profound suttas the leader Dhammadina protested that this was difficult 'it is not easy for us dwelling in a home crowded with chidren, enjoying sandlwood (perfumes) , ..receiving gold and silver to from time to time to enter and dwell uopn those discourse that are deep, deep in meaning..' RobertK 41740 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:17am Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hi Sarah, and all Continuing with your kind post, Sarah. > We may feel discouraged or fear that without taking special actions that > we will just become meaner and have less metta or even really 'go to the > dogs', so to speak. I think the opposite is true. With less thought or > concern about oneself or one's mental states and more understanding about > all dhammas, there is the development of higher sila, generosity, metta, > understanding of others and so on in addition to satipatthana. We learn > more and more about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. "We learn more and more about what is 'right' and 'wrong.'" I like that. It takes such a very long time, but the understanding arises. We don't need to panic and fight off unwholesome mental states - we can see them for what they are. (I always use "we" so loosely. I think of people in general to take the focus off myself.) THere should be abandoning of them, of course - it's one of the right efforts. But it's not a matter of responding with revulsion and flinging them away whenever they arise. We'll never learn that way. The lotus grows in the mud and produces a beautiful, pristine flower eventually. > [We read in a sutta somewhere that it's only by living closely with > someone for a long time that one will really know their sila. In this > regard I'm very fortunate to live with a model example of someone who has > never even hinted at the need for any special intentions or efforts to > `do?Eanything and yet who has always kept excellent sila in all regards > since I've known him with great confidence in all kinds of kusala.] Interesting! Have you introduced this fellow to Jon? haha Seriously, it's interesting. Sila that has arisen consistently in a person without any intentional effort or practices. Who knows why this happens? I always say "accumulations" because I don't know the proper technical language any deeper than that, but it is interesting. If there is no self, and no control over cittas, why do some people have such consistently wholesome characters? For about 15 years I have again and again and again and again and again (X500) made resolutions and tried to break unwholesome habits and have made such marginal progress. Whereas this fellow you live with has fallen into consistent sila without quite as much effort. Of course, this is not to disparage myself or praise him. In absolute terms, there is just nama and rupa. And there is no saying that there is not past kamma that will see him reborn as a ferret and me as a Deva King! But interesting how some people are consistently wholesome and others stuggle in vain to be. Seeing how it is really beyond my control helps me to relax, and relaxing will help in conditioning kusala. Not too much relaxing, of course. But not straining to achieve sila either. Middle way. BTW, this could again relate to the hetus (roots), as I mentionned in a post to Joop about annica. How (as I learned in "Roots of GOod and Evil") some people are more strongly rooted in greed (lobha) for example. I think that's the case for me, thus my efforts to kick unwholesome greed-related habits is so hard, so futile. For the fellow you live with, perhaps not as hard, and that could have to do with predominances in hetus? Metta, Phil 41741 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: Wrong concentration (miccha samadhi)/phil Hi Rob > Just got back from an Onsen, nice soaking outside while the snow > came down lightly. > And as good as any time to contemplate that death can happen at any > moment- > Contemplation of death goes together with contemplation of anatta > and then it is wonderfully calming and encouraging. Yes, I know what you mean. Because there is confidence at those moments. But I often think that it is one think to contemplate death and anatta when one is having a pleasant time, and is healthy, and it would be different if one were in a hospital bed suffering from a painful terminal disease. That would be the test to see if could still be calming. I think it would be for you. I sensed such strong confidence in you when we met and talked. For me, not yet. > Death is of three types - momentary (khanika) that is happening > every instant, conventional - when we die to this human life. And > the final death of the arahant when there is no more rebirth. Interesting. I didn't know that there was a term for this momentary death. Understanding - even in theory - that there is this momentary death puts the conventional death in perspective. There is already less clinging. I like in something Nina wrote the other day - when there is hearing, life is a moment of hearing. And so on. It really is very liberating. > With maranasati we are talking about the death which is waiting at > the end of this brief human life, maybe tommorow or tonight. > It goes together intimately with understanding the aggregates and > khandhas because there is no self who dies, and the khandhas are > like murderers waiting for their chance. This reminds me that I have come to have a somewhat better understanding why these similes are used for the khandas - you might remember that I wondered why we bother with such dramatic similes. > It is a skill that needs time and practice and is not something to > force but if you have the interest you may find it a theme that is > refuge in times of trouble and a restrainer in times of > exhilaration. Well said. Metta, Phil 41742 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/4/05 12:25:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "Awareness of an experience is not much of anything > - it is just the momentary existing of the experience." > > Hi Howard, > > I agree. I wouldn't even say "awareness of" except in the sense of > "perception of" (sanna). As for dosa being a consciousness maybe Nina > could say something. > > I've changed my mind about rupa. However anyone wants to think about it, > I'm agreeable. Convention is an agreement and agreement makes a > convention. And convention is wonderfully empty. > > Larry > ======================= Interesting, Larry. I wouldn't *quite* say that I've changed my mind on this matter, at least not in the sense of expressing my perspective in different words, but what is very true is that what you have put forward has had a subtle effect on my perspective, and has enabled me to see what is what perhaps a bit more clearly. In a way, I think our takes on this matter are actually very close if we could only get past the matter of formulation! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41743 From: Andrew Levin Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 8:23am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Reply to Message 41118 of 41267 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messagesearch/41162? query=abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > <..> > > So is self view necessarily wrong view, that is, it comprises wrong > > view with whatever type of citta there is? > …. > S: Self view and associated wrong views just arise with particular kinds > of cittas rooted in attachment. Like all other cittas, they arise > momentarily, in this case with a wrong idea or marking of the object, and > then fall away. I must agree with another posted who said that the notion of self is so ingrained in our pycho-physical organism that we operate based on it, and that attempts to cultivate sati can be successful even while using it. I am assuming that the wrong views you are talking about are less significant than the self-nature we operate day by day by. It is good to recognize there is no self, but if we use the term 'one' or 'person' we should clarify as to how far one can cultivate sati from 'normal self-view' as I will call self-view that stays until supramundane paths, or how much one has to give up control completely and merely wait for the conditions for sati to arise, or to step back with detachment on it. If one of the conditions is to read, study, or discuss dhamma, I would say that that's still operating with normal self-view, and that's on par with cultivating sati intentionally. I haven't tried detachment and allowing sati to arise on its own, instead, any (or most all) sati, or non-conceptual awareness, I've had has been cultivated through the practise of meditation. I am still somewhat interested in how we can work with consciousnesses not rooted in the 'lower' self-view but I still think there can be progress with the ones that are -- if you study dhamma, are you doing it with the idea "I should study dhamma to support conditions for sati" or "This is (my/Sarah's) book."? It seems we can generate the conditions for sati, but I'd like to hear your take on whether or not it is mostly uncontrollable (if it is uncontrollable, why do we, who are interested in the BuddhaDhamma experience it, but others do not? It seems only because of what we actually do, same with the paramis IMO.) This may seem like a hard- line stance but it is in accordance with my experience. Still, I would like to hear about cittas with wrong view of self and their significance in how our practise unfolds. > > As Nina just wrote: > "Our accumulated lobha, attachment, and wrong view, ditthi, cause us to > cling to wrong practice." > > …. > S: If we understand that particular conditions will lead to the arising of > wholesome states such as sati, this is right. If we really think that > `we', Andrew and Sarah can cultivate or develop sati, then it's wrong. Let > me know if I've missed part of your question here. Can't "we" or "you" do anything to put in place the conditions to cultivate sati, even if you do it without a lower level self belief (consciousness with wrong view), or even with consciousness without wrong view? In other words, can't we practise sati still with the higher self-view, to say nothing of the lower self-view. > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're trying to have > > view of one nama or rupa at a time, you still think of yourself as a > > 'person,' or 'Sarah Abbott' that goes through day to day recognizing > > one nama, one rupa. > …. > S: You're right. When you or I are trying to do anything or trying to have > a particular view or to understand one nama or rupa at a time, it's till > `me', `Sarah' or `Andrew' at work, a lurking wrong view conditioned by > attachment and ignorance. It's really good (imho) that this is making > sense. So at these moments, that trying or thinking or attachment can be > known. That is the present nama. But what about ultimate realities? Can't these be legitimately known, too? Also, which type of wrong view do you assert for this occasion? I'd be really interested to know. > …. > >Similarly I think I can get to understand how the > > four foundations of mindfulness are properly practised, and practise > > them. I don't see why this can't be practised with 'right view' that > > there is no self if this is to be understood. Maybe you could > > describe exactly what wrong view of self is, if you still disagree. > …. > S: Self-view can be very subtle and can sneak in anytime. One moment, > there can be awareness naturally of a nama or rupa appearing and the next > moment a trying to repeat it, trying to understand or label or practice, > all with an idea of self. Anytime there's the idea that it's `my' > awareness or that "I' can be aware, or this body is mine and so on, it's > self view. (See in U.P. under `sakkaya-ditthi' for much more). It has to > be the object of awareness and understanding to be seen for what it is. > > Let me know if you want me to say more. I can give lots of examples, like > anytime there is an idea of following a practice….!! Yes, please. In particular this bit came to my attention: SN 22-01 "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well- versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration. Now I know there is a sutta out there, or in somewhere,, that discusses knowing the three types of feeling, and abandoning the underlying tendency to lust, aversion, and ignorance respectively in pleasant feeling, painful feeling, and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. This to me seems a direct way to practise that is in accord with the satipatthana method of practise.. it reminds me too, of Joe Goldstein's 'One Dharma' in which he talked about contemplation of feeling for ending agitation and realizing nibbana, and exercises in a practise guide I have for observing feelings one day at a time that occur at each of the six sense doors, presumably, as they occur. This is in accord with my understanding of how to practise. > …. > > OK, now talk to me on a level of how you start out with wrong view of > > self, what this is superficially at the top level, and how you get > > down to eliminating it as a fetter completely. > …. > S: OK: Top Level:"If I sit and concentrate on the breath or body, > awareness, calm and understanding will grow". And you are saying this institutes wrong practise? If this can logically be expected to work (that is, it is sound instruction), I see nothing wrong with it. I have had at least awareness, and possilby calm grow from doing precisely that (concentrating on breath while sitting). > > Another Top Level: "I have to be aware and control my life so that later > Self will be eliminated" So youre saying self-view can't lead to eradication of self-view. But perhaps it can? Can we bring out some more examples here of how this might or might not work? Perhaps you have it right that one shouldn't try to control one's own life but if one 'goes with the flow' and tries to develop understanding of ultimate realities which he will later experience this can lead to benefits of practise. > > Another one: "You and I can eliminate this fetter". > > As I say, by understanding dhammas when they are experienced, firstly as > namas and rupas, not people or things, gradually the fetters will be > lessened and eventually eradicated, but without any Self's intervention. > Such understanding has to be with detachment which doesn't mind at all > what is experienced right now. Mhm detachment. Not minding what is experienced. These are for the good, but they can still be done with the idea of person. A person can understand that painful feeling isnt to be reacted to, that there is merely painful feeling or aversion, without identifying with the pain, just knowing its sensation, no? Personally, I am thinking I want to understand the different types of realities that can be understood so I can recognize them in, well, daily life. But this is only the course of my practise right now. I still like to follow a practise guide or the Maha-satipatthana sutta to sort of have a gameplan for which and when each reality is to be understood. Bordering here on control, there's an e-book on Buddhanet.net called "Knowing and seeing" wherein the author gives suggestions for doing meditation on the four elements based on identifying one segment of the body as made up of a certain element and then trying to identify that element throughout other parts of the body. He then says that this is only an outline of practise, real practise is deeper still. [vinnana skahndha] > … > > Ooh. Makes sense. So citta is the object of citta at moments where > > there is a lack of hearing, seeing, etc, and the consciousness that > > adverts it to the appropriate sense door. > … > S: Through the sense doors (i.e seeing, hearing and the following cittas), > the object is always a rupa, eg visible object, sound etc. Through the > mind-door (i.e when there is no seeing, hearing and following cittas etc), > the object can be either a) the same rupa just experienced through the > sense door, b) the citta which has just fallen away, c) a cetasika which > has just fallen away or d) most commonly, a concept or idea. > > When we are talking about satipatthana, the object can only be a reality, > i.e a), b) or c) above, but not d). I suggest you don't get too bogged > down in the Abhidhamma details. It's enough to know that there can be > awareness now of any reality appearing by conditions. Seeing is real, > hearing is real, like, dislike and so on are real and can be directly > known. I know understand what vinnana is. Is the latter similar to contemplating on the six external and internal sense bases? > …. > > Man, it's been so long since I've had the sati to be aware of > > thinking. That kind of sati required hours a day of meditation. > … > S: No. It doesn't require hours of anything. Right now, as we speak, there > is thinking. It's not you or me, it's just a conditioned nama. Awareness > can arise anytime and then gone. Nothing to cling on to or to try and have > arise. Very, very ordinary. The Buddha talks about how a monk possesses mindfulness and full awareness in all postures whether talking or remaining silent, going forward or backwards, even attending to calls of nature. How are we supposed to acheive this if we can't cultivate sati or awareness? It's fleeting otherwise. [snip] > So, let sati develop naturally by understanding what namas are and what > rupas are in the first place. Intellectual understanding of the general concepts or the ability to recognize each nama or rupa for what it is? > …. > > Man, I am all for non-conceptual awareness. It's been what is lacking > > in my life for over a year now. Now what is the characteristic of > > awareness, what conditions it? > …. > S: Not just a year. It's been lacking for aeons of lifetimes. I think it > shows some understanding to even see how it's lacking. Mostly we take > conceptual awareness for being sati, when it's merely thinking. > > If we've never heard about these dhammas, the khandhas , the namas and > rupas, there is no possibility for awareness to develop. Awareness has the > characteristic of just being aware momentarily of one of these realities > when it appears. At that moment, there is no idea of `me' doing anything > or trying or of any label or body or thing. Just `seeing' or `hearing' or > `feeling' or `sound' or any other dhamma. > > In the beginning it's bound to be so weak and infrequent and it's bound to > be followed by doubt, attachment, wrong view and other unwholesome states. > Gradually understanding can begin to know when awareness arises and what > its characteristic is, so that it can really develop, but not by any > wishing or wanting. I wish I could understand this, but it still seems conditioned by other factors. For example, in Ayya Khema's "Who is My Self?" she talks about this section of Potthapada Sutta (DN 9): <<(Mindfulness & Alertness) "And how is a monk possessed of mindfulness and alertness? When going forward and returning, he acts with alertness. When looking toward and looking away... when bending and extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe, and his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting... when urinating and defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, and remaining silent, he acts with alertness. This is how a monk is possessed of mindfulness and alertness. >> She then lists the four foundations of mindfulness in short, that is, being aware of your step "both figuratively and literally" [that is, body and mind], using clear comprehension of whatever one is doing, whether it is beneficial, speaking with clear comprehension. She then says putting mindfulness on the body and exercising it in daily life is key to having mindfulness in meditation. If there is none in one, there is none in the other, the two go hand in hand. So, she says, just putting one's attention can create mindfulness and awareness. I have had that mindfulness of the body and it felt like a great burden was lifted at the end of the day, sort of the opposite of how people talk about how they feel like the have a big hole in themselves to fill, well I felt a great burden had been lifted off my chest. I cannot get constant mindfulness and full awareness though. My awareness comes through very strongly at certain times, even lighting up everything in the visible parts of the room, when I am sitting at my desk. I would say this means mindfulness and awareness can be cultivated to an extent, but perhaps there is also some truth in your statement that knowing nama and rupa can condition further sati, because that is what she suggests, knowing body, mood, emotion, thinking processes, all nama and rupa. If only I could have it in all postures at all the time. One of my friends suggests taht it appears when I am not wrapped up in something.. it can come in at some very odd times. Anyway, your take on this would be appreciated. > …. > > Well, I've tried (to cultivate it in one session), and had it manifest > > itself throughout the day, but I'm not sure of this point. It seems > > like I could have had more knowledge or mindfulness of the parts of > > the 'chariot' as its functions as a whole began to slow down. But > > maybe you are right? > … > ;-). The obstacle is this `trying to cultivate it', because it's motivated > by attachment and self-view. But that's Ok, they can be seen for what they > are when they arise too. When we appreciate that really any dhamma can be > known and can be the object of awareness, a huge burden (of wrong view) is > lifted and we can really begin to see that awareness can develop anytime > without any special efforts or sessions. Just of one nama & rupa at a time, or can knowing more nama and rupa condition even more mindfulness and awareness? It seems to me that the Buddha meant mindfulness and awareness for the monk to be present with every step he takes. > > Trying to slow down cittas or the arising of conditioned dhammas would be > another Top Level kind of self-view as I see it, with an idea of Self > being in charge which can only lead to dismay and great disturbance when > Self doesn't get his/her way. > Eh it wasn't even intentioned to do that, it's just something I noticed. You're right though, it didn't create more sati or awareness, but it felt like it would/could have. > Please ask for any clarifications and let me know if these comments make > sense to you. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I'll also be glad to hear any feedback or different views from others > of course. Sorry for the long time between posts, will try to do better in the future. -a.l. 41744 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 9:24am Subject: Dhamma Thread (259) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of rebirth or 4 kinds or patisandhi. One is rupa- patisandhi or 'rebirth in fine material realms'. And there are 4 kinds of bhumi or 4 kinds of realm or 4 kinds of plane of existence. One is rupa bhuumi or fine material realms. These 4 patisandhis or 4 rebirths have the same names of 4 kinds of bhumi or 4 kinds of realm or 4 kinds of plane of existence. So there are rupa bhumis (fine material realms) and rupa patisandhi or rebirth in these fine material realms. Even though there is similarity in name there is a difference. That is there are 16 rupa bhumis or 16 fine material realms while there are 6 rupa patisandhi or 6 rebirths in fine material realms. These 6 patisandhi or 6 rebirths are 5 rupavipaka cittas ( so there are 5 rupa nama-patisandhi ) and 1 rupa rupa-patisandhi. This rupa- patisandhi is rebirth with material only and there is no mental component at all. Other 5 rupa nama-patisandhi or 5 fine material percipient-rebirths are rebirth with 5 rupavipaka cittas. 5th jhana rupavipaka citta is the rebirth consciousness or linking consciousness of vehapphala realm and 5 pure abodes. 4th jhana rupavipaka citta is the rebirth consciousness or linking consciousness of 3 realms of 3rd jhana rupa bhumi. 3rd jhana rupavipaka citta and 2nd jhana rupavipaka citta are patisandhi cittas or rebirth consciousness or linking consciousness of 3 realms of 2nd jhana rupa bhumis. 1st jhana rupavipaka citta is patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness or linking consciousness of 3 realms of 1st jhana rupa bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41745 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 9:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread (260) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4th rebirth or 4th patisandhi and 4th bhumi or 4th realm or 4th plane of existence left. All other patisandhi or rebirths and all other realms or planes of existence have been discussed. The 4th patisandhi or 4th rebirth is rebirth in non-material realms or arupa patisandhi. There are 4 kinds of arupa patisandhi or 4 kinds of non-material rebirth. They are 4.n'eva-sanna-nasanna-ayatana patisandhi or 'neither-perception-nor-non-perception rebirth' 3.aakincinna-ayatana patisandhi or 'nothingness rebirth' 2.vinnananca-ayatana patisandhi or 'boundless-consciousness rebirth' 1.aakaasananca-ayatana patisandhi or 'boundless-space rebirth' They are nothing but vipaka cittas that are resulted from arupa jhana. There are 4 arupa jhanas. They are 1.akasanancayatana arupa jhana (boundless-space) 2.vinnanancayatana arupa jhana (boundless-consciousness) 3.akincinnayatana arupa jhana (nothingness) 4.nevasannanasannayatana arupa jhana(neither perception-nor- nonperception) These 4 arupa jhanas are called arupa kusala cittas when they are being developed by beings as javana cittas or mental impulsive consciousness. Because of these mental actions of arupa jhanas there have to arise as arupavipaka citta. When these arupavipaka cittas arise as the first time in a life they are called patisandhi citta and later they are called bhavanga cittas and when they last arise they are called cuti citta in arupa brahma. These vipaka cittas cannot arise in other beings except non-material beings or arupa brahmas. Again as there are 4 arupa patisandhis or rebirths there have to be 4 arupa bhumi or 4 arupa realms or 4 non-material realms or 4 non- material plane of existence. They are 4. nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana bhumi or realm of neither-perception nor-non-perception. 3. akincinnayatana bhumi or realm of nothingness 2. vinnanancayatana bhumi or realm of boundless-consciousness 1. akasanancayatana bhumi or realm of boundless-space May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41746 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: for James Dear Robertk and Tep, Thanks for the Expositor quotes, Robert. To go back to MN 117 / Great Forty, it also says that there are both the mundane and noble factors or "twenty factors siding with skillfulness, and twenty with unskillfulness". That is, as I read it, even kusala kamma is bricklaying and no kamma is noble kamma. Some bricks are higher quality but they're still basically dirt with various kinds and amounts of impurities. I don't know why the Venerable Bodhi uses 'intention' for sankappa / vitakka / 'initial application' but guess cetana / volition is the volatile element that fires up the other mental factors / cetasikas to come together in our brick making and vitakka is in charge of 'intending' the focus or direction of the heat but that it's for naught if isn't applied to some effort or purpose. MN 117 (ATI) again: "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort" and "In one of right view, wrong view is abolished. The many evil, unskillful qualities that come into play with wrong view as their condition are also abolished, while the many skillful qualities that have right view as their condition go to the culmination of their development." I don't see any factor called 'choice' but I try to make one anyway and it seems that right view, beginning with the mundane intellectual variety, must be the foundation. Or, wimpy hod carrier I am, it's only that cornerstone I really need to concern myself with and the rest will just fall into place like magic; the sutta does say they all just "run and circle around" each other and "right view is the forerunner". When it ever gets to the point that my view turns into the super-right 'view' of the arahant, I'll really see how all compounded things are impermanent when all the defilements are finally exhausted and the whole structure collapses for the last time. That the other bricks just fall into place depending on view, right or wrong, seems much the same as saying satipatthana or 5-fold development is the 'only' or 'direct' way, I think. Like anything else, the jhana factors will develop along the same lines as my understanding or whatever 'practice' / lifestyle I follow. For sure, they'll be there in their transcendent form to whatever extent they're needed whenever there's any ariyan bridge to cross. peace, connie 41747 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Dear RobertK, Nina and Ken H. - Thank you all for the background information you gave me on "the 500 Merchants". It was amazing how our Lord Buddha's Dhamma talks to them were so powerful that they all became sotapanna. (I wish I were that lucky!) RobertK: In fact when the Buddha suggested that they should study such profound suttas the leader Dhammadina protested that this was difficult 'it is not easy for us dwelling in a home crowded with chidren, enjoying sandlwood (perfumes) , ..receiving gold and silver to from time to time to enter and dwell uopn those discourse that are deep, deep in meaning..' Tep: So Dhammadina was in disbelief (like me) that the profound Dhamma would be transparent to them worldling merchants. But, without any doubt, they must already be endowed with unwavering confidence in the Triple Gem at the beginning. Nina (#41715): The Buddha knew that they were sotapannas and encouraged them to develop further. It is said that it was difficult for them to put up with the task. They lived their daily life with all the sense pleasures. But they could be mindful naturally and develop understanding. The Co states that several suttas were mentioned to them for study: the K.S. IV, about the unconditioned, and this is about the development of all the enlightenment factors. Beginning with mindfulness of the body. Actually, mindfulness of the body includes understanding of nama and rupa, not only rupa. Further the Moneyyasutta, Gradual Sayings I, 273, about the perfection through body, speech and mind. The last one is the attainment of arahatship. The sotapanna has perfected sila and the anagami has perfected samadhi, he naturally lives without sense pleasures, and thus he has great calm. The virtues of the ariyans lead to concentration. Thus, these sotapannas who had virtues untarnished, were encouraged to continue to develop understanding until arahatship. Tep: These Merchants must be the very rare kind of trade people (whose main concern is not money, money, and money) because the qualification "perfected sila" couldn't be achieved by just listening to the Great Sage: they had to earnestly train themselves for some time. And on top of the perfected sila foundation, they must have to develop the seven enlightenment factors and see through the Four Noble Truths! Kindest regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > 41748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134, Howard. Hi Howard, op 03-02-2005 16:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > 1) I believe that every citta has an object (or objective content), > and I understand that to be a basic premiss of Abhidhamma. N: Yes. We do not have to call it Abhidhamma, it is real, we can verify it. H: 2) I believe that every rupa is, in itself, either pleasant, > unpleasant, or affectively neutral, and I understand that to be a basic > premiss of > Abhidhamma. N: Here we have to differentiate rupa and rupa as object. This may be difficult for phenomenologistici, I know. It is said of an *object* experienced by citta that it is pleasant (desirable) or unpleasant (undesirable), not neutral, even though it may seem so at times. When we just touch something that is not so hard, not so cold, we just do not know whether it is pleasant or not. Also when just seeing now, we cannot find out. but why should we? H: 3) Mindfulness and recognition are certainly cognitive operations, but > by 'awareness' I understand "vi~n~nana", and I do not believe that an > instance of vi~n~nana can take itself as object. N: I understood rightly that you mean by awareness viññaa.na, and that is O.K. Yes, 3 is correct. A citta cannot know itself, seeing cannot know, I am seeing, it just sees. It only experiences visible object. L: Btw, how do you know rupa is different from consciousness? > Howard: > That's how it appears to me. ... (snipped) > I've based some of what I have said on this topic on what I *believe* > Abhidhamma to assert. N: Yes, it is clear what you say. Sometimes you use a different wording to explain something, but when you elaborate on what you mean by your words, it is clear. Like'consciousness', namely the experiential presence of a dhamma', it is unusual for my ears, but I know what you mean. We can verify that there are different dhammas appearing, but when there is no direct awareness yet of an element that experiences it is still "I' who is seeing, and we do not distinguish it from the rupa that appears. Nina. 41749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134 Hi Larry, Howard, op 04-02-2005 06:22 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > As for dosa being a consciousness maybe Nina > could say something. N: dosa is a cetasika, accompanying akusala citta. This was dealt with under the khandha of consciousness. Nina. 41750 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 8:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134, Howard. Hi, nina - In a message dated 2/4/05 3:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > It is said of an *object* > experienced by citta that it is pleasant (desirable) or unpleasant > (undesirable), not neutral, even though it may seem so at times. ------------------------------------ Howard: With regard to body sense, I understand that. But are not all visual objects neutral in feel, with subsequent mind-door objects possibly having non-neutral feel? ----------------------------------- > When we just touch something that is not so hard, not so cold, we just do > not know whether it is pleasant or not. > -------------------------------- Howard: Sure. This is a matter of confusion. --------------------------------- Also when just seeing now, we cannot> > find out. but why should we? > --------------------------------- Howard: Here I am not following you. ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41751 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 134, Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/4/05 3:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > N: Yes, it is clear what you say. Sometimes you use a different wording to > explain something, but when you elaborate on what you mean by your words, it > is clear. Like'consciousness', namely the experiential presence of a > dhamma', it is unusual for my ears, but I know what you mean. > ======================= Good, I'm glad that you do. BTW, part of the reason I use 'experiential presence' for 'consciousness' is to purposely not "make too much" of consciousness. I think there is a grave danger in turning mere awareness of something into a kind of self, entity, or agent. I also truly do think that the experiential presence of a phenomenon is exactly what consciousness of it amounts to, and that low-key terminology is a kind of protection against making a "thing" out of awareness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41752 From: Philip Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 2:03pm Subject: Predominant roots? (was Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hi all I wrote this to Sarah yesterday: > BTW, this could again relate to the hetus (roots), as I mentionned > in a post to Joop about annica. How (as I learned in "Roots of GOod > and Evil") some people are more strongly rooted in greed (lobha) for > example. I think that's the case for me, thus my efforts to kick > unwholesome greed-related habits is so hard, so futile. For the > fellow you live with, perhaps not as hard, and that could have to do > with predominances in hetus? First of all, I'd like to change that "futile." The Buddha teaches us in a very stirring sutta that we all know that is *is* possible to abandon the unwholesome and cultivate the wholesome - otherwise he wouldn't teach us. My point is that we are dealing with very strong forces that make it much more difficult than we might think. Second, I'd like to ask you all what you know about or think of this teaching that different roots are more dominant in some people than others. Does it appear often in the suttanta and commentaries? I think it's very interesting. Metta, Phil 41753 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:50pm Subject: Re: for James Dear Connie and RobertK, R: (message #41730) Another commenst on venerables Bodhi's translation of sammasankappa as right INTENTION. All these pali terms do not have exact english equivalents so there are always problems, but Intention seems an unfortunate choice of term for sankappa. Sankappa is the mental factor (cetasika) vitakka and Bodhi translates it as 'initial application' at times . So why use Intention? For cetana he uses volition. What is the difference between volition and Intention? T: Robert has very good eye - like that of an eagle -- and mind for detail. The word sankappa is a synonym to vitakka, a kind of thought like Connie has pointed out. Thus the straightforward translation for samma-sankappa is, without a question, 'right thought'. But Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi is too experienced and too wise to miss such a simple translation (that even a non-expert in Pali like me does not miss). So I think 'thought free from sensuous desire' (nekkhamma sankappa), for example, may not sound as serious and noble to him as 'intention, or volition for freedom from sensuous desire'. Besides, virtue as volition is "in one who fulfils the practice of duties" (VM I, 17). This is just my guess. C: Or, wimpy hod carrier I am, it's only that cornerstone I really need to concern myself with and the rest will just fall into place like magic; the sutta does say they all just "run and circle around" each other and "right view is the forerunner". When it ever gets to the point that my view turns into the super-right 'view' of the arahant, I'll really see how all compounded things are impermanent when all the defilements are finally exhausted and the whole structure collapses for the last time. T: I agree with Connie about the forerunning role of samma-ditthi and that the practice of the Eightfold Path works its way from the lower level (mundane) toward the top (lokuttara), where "all the defilements are finally exhausted and the whole structure collapses for the last time". C: That the other bricks just fall into place depending on view, right or wrong, seems much the same as saying satipatthana or 5-fold development is the 'only' or 'direct' way, I think. T: I also see the role of satipatthana (sati and sampajanna on the 4 foundations: kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) as expressed in MN 117 too. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. ... One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness, ... etc. " Please notice the word "resolve" as the taranslation for sankappa. I think "resolve" is closer to "intention" than "thought". Again, just another quess. Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Dear Robertk and Tep, > > Thanks for the Expositor quotes, Robert. To go back to MN 117 / Great > Forty, it also says that there are both the mundane and noble factors (snipped) 41754 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:55pm Subject: Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina Hello Phil, Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote:> > > Hi Sarah, and all > > Continuing with your kind post, Sarah. > > > > We may feel discouraged or fear that without taking special actions > that > > we will just become meaner and have less metta or even really 'go > to the > > dogs', so to speak. I think the opposite is true. With less thought > or > > concern about oneself or one's mental states and more understanding > about > > all dhammas, there is the development of higher sila, generosity, > metta, > > understanding of others and so on in addition to satipatthana. We > learn > > more and more about what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. > > > "We learn more and more about what is 'right' and 'wrong.'" I like > that. It takes such a very long time, but the understanding arises. > We don't need to panic and fight off unwholesome mental states - we > can see them for what they are. (I always use "we" so loosely. I > think of people in general to take the focus off myself.) THere > should be abandoning of them, of course - it's one of the right > efforts. But it's not a matter of responding with revulsion and > flinging them away whenever they arise. We'll never learn that way. > The lotus grows in the mud and produces a beautiful, pristine flower > eventually. > Azita: This is so helpful. Have been giving myself a hard time lately, and have been responding with revulsion and anger, but when I think about it, it just means that "I'm" accumulating more of the same :-( Occasionally, I'll remember that these are just namas and rupas arising and passing away, and that they have gone already when there is thinking about them. Btw. Phil, I'm quite happy with the 'we' bec. much of what you say relates in my case too. I believe it takes a long long long time to develop the awareness and understanding that knows a nama from a rupa. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41755 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Kel kelvin_lwin wrote: > Kel: I dunno what is being taught from suttas anymore with all the > >spinning going on. I just rely on what is being taught in >meditation centers in tradition of different teachers. They all >seem to discuss working with pannatti to reach paramattha. They >also appear to give different instructions depending on the level >and ability of the student. I view it not so much 2-track approach >but different stages of the path? > > Kel, you disappoint me ;-)). A very detailed knowledge of the pitakas and familiarity and obvious familiarity with Pali (even James can accept Pali as used by you), but when it comes to the development of insight you say you disregard this in favour of uncritical acceptance of teachers in meditation centres??? I know this couldn't really be the case. Of course you do evaluate what the teacher says against your extensive knowledge of the suttas. On the other hand, however, it's easy to be swayed by the conviction of those who have dedicated their lives to a particular kind of practice. It takes a certain courage to take a stand that runs counter to the generally held view on what the development of insight entails. > Kel: I didn't want to use "formal meditation" but I guess that's > >the general idea. Going to a quiet place so the assault on senses >are less. Kinda like a "clean room" for maufacturing computer chips >or sanitary room used for surgery operations. When something is >delicate, it requires more protection and nurturing. Once it's >strong, it can withstand more things. So along with the theme I had >above, for people at varying stages, the practice might indeed be >different. > Whether we call it 'formal meditation' or 'dedicated sessions of meditation' makes no difference, I think. If it is not something directly explained or clearly implied in the texts then we need to approach it with caution. Generally speaking, did the Buddha advise his listeners in terms of special practice in a quiet place, or did he rather explain in great detail the way things are and urge his listeners to consider and apply what he was explaining? How come so many people became enlightened while actually listening to a teaching about the khandhas or ayatanas, impermanence and not-self: content that may seem to us not particularly deep? Are we perhaps missing something? >I agree that real judge of progress is in how well we >handle vicissitudes of life. I don't necessarily agree that normal >life is a good setting to practice for everyone. People who are >firmly established in practice are able to do it I'm sure. For >myself I know, I'm just barely hanging on and gradually slipping >when I'm back to normal life. Only in a quiet and protected >environment of a retreat, I'm able to recharge so to speak. It's >just a fact that I've observed about myself and others around me. > > I understand the phenomenon you refer to here, whereby achievements made in retreat are gradually lost when we are back in the real world. I think it's fair to ask ourselves in this case whether the apparent achievements were really the sati/panna or whatever that we took them for. Again, is this something we read about in the texts? Jon 41756 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Hi, Phil, I wonder what good it does to tell myself I'm predominantly greedy or hateful or any of the 6 (more or less, depending on who you read) basic natures. Basically, we're all here because of lobha mula citta. How do I know from minute to minute what "I am" and why would I want to 'set it in stone' or define/limit myself/possibilities? Or have some teacher tell me since it seems I've mostly seen it in connection with which meditation subjects are most appropriate for any given personality and there's usually some advice there about how only a qualified teacher would be able to tell you. I don't think it matters to sati. But you were asking about references, I think. Vsm III 121: 10. As to suitability to temperament: here the exposition should be understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. That is to say: firstly the 10 kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied with the body are 11 meditation subjects suitable for one of greedy temperament. The 4 divine abidings and 4 colour kasinas are 8 suitable for one of hating temperament. Mindfulness of breathing is the one [recollection as a] meditation subject suitable for one of deluded temperament and for one of speculative temperament. The 1st 6 recollections are suitable for one of faithful temperament. Mindfulness of death, the recollection of peace, the defining of the 4 elements, and the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, are 4 suitable for one of intelligent temperament. The remaining kasinas and the immaterial states are suitable for all kinds of temperament. And any one of the kasinas should be limited for one of speculative temperament and measureless for one of deluded temperament. This is how the exposition should be understood here 'as to suitability of temperament'. 122: All this has been stated in the form of direct opposition and complete suitability. But there is actually no profitable development that does not suppress greed, etc., and help faith, and so on. And this is said in the Meghiya Sutta: '[One] should, in addition, {34} develop these four things: foulness should be developed for the purpose of abandoning greed (lust). Loving kindness should be developed for the purpose of abandoning ill-will. Mindfulness of breathing should be developed for the purpose of cutting off applied thought. Perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the purpose of eliminating the conceit "I am"' (A.iv,358). Also in the Rahula Sutta in the passage beginning 'Develop lovingkindness, Rahula' (M.i,424) seven meditation subjects are given for a single temperament. So instead of insisting on the mere letter, the intention should be sought in each instance. This is the explanatory exposition of the meditation subject referred to by the words 'and he should apprehend ... one [meditation subject] (section 28). {fn 34: 'In addition to the 5 things' (not quoted) dealt with earlier in the sutta, namely, perfection of virtue, good friendship, hearing suitable things, energy, and understanding}. This all starts off in the Pali (as near as I can make out) with "Cariyaanukuulatoti cariyaana.m anukuulatopettha vinicchayo veditabbo". The Ven. Nanamoli's Vsm glossary gives "cariya, carita - temperament, behaviour, exercise". I kind of like that 'exercise' bit... which ever root or quality is most active at any given moment as opposed to 'the inherent, fundamental flaw in my personality' or something. However, in one of the preceding chapters, there is some discussion of the kind of dwelling most suitable to each 'type' and that does make it sound like a more or less in-born, die-hard trait. Also some examples of different behaviours that indicate which type you are from how you hold a broom to how you fall out at night. peace, connie 41757 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ... Howard: ...I am explicitly speaking of the phenomenological object. That is why I made the point of saying "experienced object (as experienced object)". I am not speaking of an alleged something underlying the experienced object. That may or may not exist, and if it does, it may or may not exist prior to the experienced object. Experienced hardness and the experiencing of it are co-occuring and mutually dependent. An alleged unexperienced hardness, if it exists, is simply unknown. I am not addressing such a thing-in-itself, as it is only the experiential object that is experienced. I am not dealing with ontological inference, but with experience. Jon: Well I too am speaking of the presently experienced object, specifically, when that is a rupa appearing through one of the 5 sense-doors, and I am speaking of that object only (so let's have no more talk of 'something underlying the experienced object' or an 'alleged inexperienced object' ;-)). My question is, on what basis do you assert that the presently experienced sense-door object arises no earlier than the moment at which it is experienced by the sense-door consciousness? Howard: ... [A]s far as concepts are concerned, I am coming to the point of view that "there ain't no such things - not really!" The "tree concept" as idea, just isn't findable upon introspection; and trees are conventionally "encountered", but not actually encountered - we merely think we encounter trees. It is just a matter of thinking and imagining interspersed with seeing, touching, recognizing etc. Jon: So far as I'm concerned too, there are no such things as concepts. But there are moments of consciousness that think in terms of names, meanings and 'things' (what you refer to as thinking and imagining). The tag 'concept' is used to refer to such names, meanings and *presumed* things. If it has existence, substance or individual characteristic, if it arises or falls away, then it would not be correctly referred to as a concept. (This discussion has brought home to me how reference to concepts can be a real trap for the unwary -- it's so easy to unwittingly give substance to 'them' (actually, no 'them'!).) Jon 41758 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H. , At this point in our series of dialogues I begin to feel like a car running out of gas! No, it does not mean I am exhausted. On the contrary, I am exhaustless when I have a dhamma discussion with a person with clear understanding like you, Ken. But I think there are only a few issues remaining. KH: The audience to the Sekha-patipada Sutta were given a description of a certain type of ariyan learner and his accomplishments. T: I was incorrect in underestimating the 500 rich Merchants, remember? Thanks to you, Nina and RobertK for correcting me (these 500 guys were all sotapanna!). So you may be right again here. KH: Some suttas describe the qualities of the Tathagata and the way of the Bodhisatta. Obviously, we are not expected to treat them as a set of instructions. I feel sure the same applies equally (but less obviously) to all suttas. T: Prepared to be surprised, Ken. Read the following sutta excerpt and let me know what you think about whether it is a set of instructions or not. BTW, I hope you still are not exhausted :<). "Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done? We will be pure in our bodily actions manifest, open and without a flaw. ...there is something more to do. Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done? We will be pure in verbal actions manifest, open and without a flaw. ... Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done. We will be pure in mental actions manifest, open and without a flaw. ... Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done? We will be pure in our livelihood manifest, open and without a flaw. ... Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done? We will be with protected mental faculties. ... Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done? We will know the right amount to partake food. ... Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done? We should be yoked to wakefulness. ... Bhikkhus, what further thing has to be done? We will be endowed with mindful awareness. ...there is something more to do. [End of excerpt, see the original sutta for more.] MN 39, Maha-assapura Sutta > 2) "... knows moderation in eating, is devoted to wakefulness..." KH: These are not things that greedy, sleepy people can deliberately know and be devoted to. True moderation is an attribute of people who are established in virtue and who understand the benefits of moderation. T: I am glad you used the expression "deliberately know and devoted to". Your main point, "The key is to understand the Dhamma: the rest will follow naturally", does not depend on whether or not the practitioner knows moderation in eating, etc. In other words, you can eat six heavy meals each day and sleep 8 hours each night, study the texts and higher dhamma while eating, and still can understand the dhamma too. :-) Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > You asked if I thought a certain practice was right or wrong. I > didn't make my answer clear enough. > (snipped) -------------------------------- > > I am tempted to say that the way of bare insight would suit me > better, but that brings in the idea of self. The key is to > understand the Dhamma: the rest will follow naturally. > > Ken H 41759 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon (and Kel) - In a message dated 2/4/05 7:11:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Generally speaking, did the Buddha advise his > listeners in terms of special practice in a quiet place, or did he > rather explain in great detail the way things are and urge his listeners > to consider and apply what he was explaining? ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, and yes. ----------------------------------- > How come so many people > became enlightened while actually listening to a teaching about the > khandhas or ayatanas, impermanence and not-self: content that may seem > to us not particularly deep? Are we perhaps missing something? ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. what we are missing was 1) the listeners were well practiced, and 2) It was a BUDDHA they were in the presence of. =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41760 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/4/05 7:39:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > Howard: > ...I am explicitly speaking of the phenomenological object. That is > why I made the point of saying "experienced object (as experienced > object)". I am not speaking of an alleged something underlying the > experienced object. That may or may not exist, and if it does, it > may or may not exist prior to the experienced object. Experienced > hardness and the experiencing of it are co-occuring and mutually > dependent. An alleged unexperienced hardness, if it exists, is > simply unknown. I am not addressing such a thing-in-itself, as it is > only the experiential object that is experienced. I am not dealing > with ontological inference, but with experience. > > Jon: > Well I too am speaking of the presently experienced object, > specifically, when that is a rupa appearing through one of the 5 > sense-doors, and I am speaking of that object only (so let's have no > more talk of 'something underlying the experienced object' or > an 'alleged inexperienced object' ;-)). > > My question is, on what basis do you assert that the presently > experienced sense-door object arises no earlier than the moment at > which it is experienced by the sense-door consciousness? --------------------------------- Howard: Jon, you just agreed that we are talking about what is experienced. We are not talking about an unexperienced. Something experienced does not exist when it is not experienced, because what is not experienced is NOT what is experienced. You do *not* seem to be getting the distinction I am making. The hardness I sense is mental content. [Note: That does *not* mean it is nama - it is *object* of nama.] Any prior unexperienced "hardness", if it exists at all, is not mental content, and is another beast altogether. ---------------------------------- > > Howard: > ... [A]s far as concepts are concerned, I am coming to the point of > view that "there ain't no such things - not really!" The "tree > concept" as idea, just isn't findable upon introspection; and trees > are conventionally "encountered", but not actually encountered - we > merely think we encounter trees. It is just a matter of thinking and > imagining interspersed with seeing, touching, recognizing etc. > > Jon: > So far as I'm concerned too, there are no such things as concepts. > But there are moments of consciousness that think in terms of names, > meanings and 'things' (what you refer to as thinking and > imagining). The tag 'concept' is used to refer to such names, > meanings and *presumed* things. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. No problem. :-) ---------------------------------------- > > If it has existence, substance or individual characteristic, if it > arises or falls away, then it would not be correctly referred to as > a concept. > > (This discussion has brought home to me how reference to concepts > can be a real trap for the unwary -- it's so easy to unwittingly > give substance to 'them' (actually, no 'them'!).) > ------------------------------------- ;-)) ------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41761 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/4/2005 4:39:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: Howard: ... [A]s far as concepts are concerned, I am coming to the point of view that "there ain't no such things - not really!" Hi Howard and Jon Question... Does the sense-of-self, self view, conceit of I, etc. arise or not? If so or if not, how would you distinguish these from concepts? TG 41762 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 1:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/4/05 9:20:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard and Jon > > Question... Does the sense-of-self, self view, conceit of I, etc. arise or > not? If so or if not, how would you distinguish these from concepts? > > TG > ====================== I think that sense of self is a paramattha dhamma, a mental dhamma. Self view, on the other hand, amounts to an often recurring thought process. If you would like to call that a concept, I won't object. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41763 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 7:22pm Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon (howard), > > Kel: I dunno what is being taught from suttas anymore with all the > >spinning going on. > J:you say you disregard this in favour of uncritical acceptance of > teachers in meditation centres??? Kel: I was just being a bit facetious which you noticed. A few discussion appears to go something like, "that is what Buddha said but don't you think this is what he actually meant?" I just don't see how to draw a definite conclusion since he's no longer around to ask for clarification. > J: Of course you do evaluate what > the teacher says against your extensive knowledge of the suttas. On the > other hand, however, it's easy to be swayed by the conviction of those > who have dedicated their lives to a particular kind of practice. It > takes a certain courage to take a stand that runs counter to the > generally held view on what the development of insight entails. Kel: Yes, you're right on that I do evaluate what is being taught with my background. I only accept something if it makes sense to me. I would think that's just sutamaya-panna turning into cintamaya- panna. That in turn develops bhavanamaya-panna, same process for everybody. I'm not fortunate enough to be directly taught by famous Sayadaws. I take what is said to be merely based on the presenter's capacity. I think one of the things that happen is you get to know yourself really well. So it becomes apparent what meshes with your personality and what doesn't. I would say the courage would be to practice in a way that works for you regardless of what is convential wisdom. Ultimately I think that's the only reference we have to go by. Once we have pretty good understanding, only thing is to continously practice. > J: Generally speaking, did the Buddha advise his > listeners in terms of special practice in a quiet place Kel: Howard answer yes to this. I would also say even mahasatipatthana sutta starts with that advice. > rather explain in great detail the way things are and urge his listeners > to consider and apply what he was explaining? Kel: He also explained it from different angles for different audience. But there's always underlying message of applying it after understanding it. So I would think it depends on the particular person and what deficiency Buddha was trying to fix. > became enlightened while actually listening to a teaching about the > khandhas or ayatanas, impermanence and not-self: content that may seem > to us not particularly deep? Are we perhaps missing something? Kel: We missed Buddha's time so our kamma/paramis are not up to par to be that fortunate. Luckily we still caught his sasana albeit after halfway point. Buddha was there to guide Ashine Mahamogallana through his practice in very hand-ons way. To make up for a lack of such a teacher, we'll just have to try harder. I think anicca and anatta concepts are very deep because if we truly understood it, we would act accordingly to that wisdom. To me if I can't apply it fully then I only understand the model but still lacking true understanding. Again only cintamaya-panna and not fully mature bhavanamaya-panna. Also I think it's curious why Sotapannas are still immersed in sensual pleasures if they truly understand anicca/anatta if you go by some people's definitions of what understanding those concepts mean. > I understand the phenomenon you refer to here, whereby achievements made > in retreat are gradually lost when we are back in the real world. I > think it's fair to ask ourselves in this case whether the apparent > achievements were really the sati/panna or whatever that we took them > for. Again, is this something we read about in the texts? Kel: I know if I can live the rest of my life in a retreat setting then it'll have far more kusala moments. I believe the apparent achievements are some degree of sati/panna but they are not fully mature yet. If they were then that would make the person an ariya. Repeated experience of those sati/panna is what will lead to enlightenment. The faster (frequency) we have those experiences, earlier we'll achieve the goal. It's not said in the texts explicitly about life on a retreat versus a real life. Perhaps because there's no difference for an ariya but that's only a conjecture. Buddha did exhort qualities of a place of practice that can be related to a retreat environment. I see a separation between setting up for success and being attached to the success. Thoughts and reactions that show such attachments are easily discernable. I can only trust my own experience and what I observe about myself in this. So I only claim this for myself and not generally to anyone else. In some sense more viriya is required for maintaining a lower level sati in everyday life. I definitely think it benefits me here and now but will pay even more dividends in a retreat since the mind is now more inclined to sati. - kel 41764 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/4/2005 7:03:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I think that sense of self is a paramattha dhamma, a mental dhamma. Self view, on the other hand, amounts to an often recurring thought process. If you would like to call that a concept, I won't object. ;-) With metta, Howard Hi Howard I wonder if you could expand on that. Is the sense-of-self a paramattha dhamma in the sense of conceit and or delusion? I noticed "wrong view" is listed as a cetasika. Wouldn't "self view" be classified under that? TG 41765 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Hello Connie and Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Hi, Phil, > > I wonder what good it does to tell myself I'm predominantly greedy or > hateful or any of the 6 (more or less, depending on who you read) basic > natures. Basically, we're all here because of lobha mula citta. How do I > know from minute to minute what "I am" and why would I want to 'set it in > stone' or define/limit myself/possibilities? Azita: I kind of agree with you here, but don't you ever see traits in yourself that you maybe have seen all your life? I know I have and its what I would call a 'predominant root'. i personally don't see it as 'setting it in stone' but there is certainly traits that makes up 'me'. To see them for what they really are - not me, not mine - is, I think, part of Buddha's teaching on anatta. For example, this anger I take to be mine, this generosity I take to be me or mine. Or have some teacher tell me > since it seems I've mostly seen it in connection with which meditation > subjects are most appropriate for any given personality and there's > usually some advice there about how only a qualified teacher would be able > to tell you. I don't think it matters to sati. But you were asking about > references, I think. > Azita: no, it doesn't matter to Sati, but to have Sati arise, isnt it important to firstly know and really understand what it is that awareness can be aware of? I mean, we learn about seeing and hearing etc, about attachment, anger, ignorance, but its only ever after the fact that I think 'o that was such and such'. Anyway, I think I might not have references to back up any of my comments, and I think Phil was looking for just that. ....snip.... > This all starts off in the Pali (as near as I can make out) with > "Cariyaanukuulatoti cariyaana.m anukuulatopettha vinicchayo veditabbo". > The Ven. Nanamoli's Vsm glossary gives "cariya, carita - temperament, > behaviour, exercise". I kind of like that 'exercise' bit... which ever > root or quality is most active at any given moment as opposed to 'the > inherent, fundamental flaw in my personality' or something. However, in > one of the preceding chapters, there is some discussion of the kind of > dwelling most suitable to each 'type' and that does make it sound like a > more or less in-born, die-hard trait. Also some examples of different > behaviours that indicate which type you are from how you hold a broom to > how you fall out at night. Azita: what is this 'fall out at night' - i admit to an imaginative mind so here I'm thinking vampires :-0 > > peace, > connie Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 41766 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard Just to comment on the references to me in particular. upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > > Now here, when you speak of "the objects of the proliferations" we get >close to another problem in "concept language", namely the systematic >conflating of alleged mental phenomena (the momentary, mind-constructed phenomena >that I have trouble finding and that Jon seems to accept but to dismiss) and the >nonexistent shadow entities they seem to refer to - that they project in >imagination. > I do not by any means *dismiss* concepts (life would be impossible without them), but I think discussion about them helps one gain a better understanding of what is meant by 'dhammas', and this I see as a crucial aspect of the teachings. It is necessary to realise that what we take as being (conventional) 'things' are not dhammas nor are they 'things composed of' dhammas; the reality is simply multiple moments of *conceptualising about things*. Only dhammas are real; anything else is a concept or, to be more precise, mere conceptualising about (imagined) things. There are no 'mind-constructed phenomena' such as you mention here; the only phenomenon associated with this conceptualising is the momentary mind/consciousness itself. > Is a chair a concept? Are there chairs at all? Well, I say that there >really are no chairs, but to speak of chairs in not meaningless - it is >abbreviational, figurative language. A tougher question: Is there a *concept* of >chair, and do we think of it. Jon seems to think so. I think not. I believe there >are mental processes that occure which we *call* thinking of the concept of >chair, but I do not think that introspection will ever reveal to us a single >mental phenomenon that is "concept of chair". > > No, I do not think there is such a 'thing' as a concept of a chair. As I understand it, at the moment of thinking there is a chair there is only conceptualising about 'chair', that is to say, there is the dhamma of consciousness with idea of chair as its 'object'. Jon 41767 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Ken Ken O wrote: >Hi Jon > >In fact, all volitions that are base on kusala roots are dana by >itself if one consider dana as alobha. Why is there so much debate >about dana when it is implicitly implied ;-). Cheers > > All kusala can be considered dana of one form or another? Well, I suppose so, but then there are multiple ways of describing/classifying kusala, so that would be but one way of looking at it. But I think your point is that dana is not a particular action (or class of actions), and realising this will mean there is more chance of there being dana at times other than times of carrying out that particular action (or action belonging to that particular class of actions). That is certainly so, I believe. Jon 41768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Larry LBIDD@w... wrote: >Hi Jon, > >I've lost the thread. I don't know what either one of us is talking >about. > Glad to know I'm not the only one ;-)) >Maybe we should start over. > > Your serve. Jon 41769 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/4/05 11:49:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 2/4/2005 7:03:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... > writes: > I think that sense of self is a paramattha dhamma, a mental dhamma. > Self view, on the other hand, amounts to an often recurring thought process. > > If > you would like to call that a concept, I won't object. ;-) > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi Howard > > I wonder if you could expand on that. Is the sense-of-self a paramattha > dhamma in the sense of conceit and or delusion? > > I noticed "wrong view" is listed as a cetasika. Wouldn't "self view" be > classified under that? > > TG > ======================== I'm not very clear on the nuances of all the various terms. Sense-of-self seems to me to be an elementary dhamma, specifically a fundamental ignorance-forged sankhara, or, perhaps, a form of ignorance itself. But self-view seems to me to be a complex of sorts, a kind of recurring mental process or thought pattern conditioned in part by sense-of-self . Self-view is eliminated at stream entry, but sense-of-self I believe is not uprooted until the fruition of arahanthood. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41770 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: the Five Indriyas, what is sati. Dear Tep, > Your golden message (# 41713) is very special to me -- the best ever. > The idea (view, ditthi) of the 'self' who "directs sati" and the subtle, but > wrong view that "sati has to arise without interruption" have become > clear to me for the first time. [Well, now I realize that I wasn't 'that > impossible' to be taught!] This is very encouraging :-). Frankly, I thought that you would be hard to convince, but now I see that I was wrong. Btw, because you did not respond to my last post, I thought that you might have been offended by something I wrote, perhaps the comment about the 'uninstructed worldling'? If this is so, allow me to explain. I did not refer to you, but to 'dictionaries'. You had asked me to refer to the dictionary for the meaning/definition of some term (I forget which one). I make the distinction for example between 'language dictionary' and 'Buddhist Dictionary'. The latter can give some understanding about dhamma concepts, but the former only clarifies the meaning of words used for communication and does not lead to any understanding of Dhamma, which is our primary concern. Hope this clears any misunderstanding. :-) Metta, Sukinder 41771 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > Okay. I think I follow you, and I actually agree with the sense of it! > >There is just the process of thinking, and it *seems* to be "about >something," but with that "something" not an actual object. > Well, thinking does *in fact* think about "things". That is its function, i.e., to think ;-)). And there's nothing 'wrong' with that. But we also take there *to be* actual things. That is an (invalidated) assumption on our part, even though that assumption appears to be constantly being validated by virtue of our projections on the basis of those assumptions proving to be accurate. At the moment of taking there to be "something called 'X'", the reality is the thinking that thinks "thing called 'X'". There is never the direct experience of 'thing X', although there could of course be the direct experience of, say, hardness that we take for forming part of "thing X". >However, it still remains >true, does it not, that every mindstate has an object or objective content? It >just may be that during thought processes we may not be all that clear on what >the actual objects are. > > Well it is my understanding of the teachings that every moment of consciousness has an 'object', since its function is to 'experience'. Jon 41772 From: Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/5/05 12:08:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > Just to comment on the references to me in particular. > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Howard: > > > > Now here, when you speak of "the objects of the proliferations" we get > >close to another problem in "concept language", namely the systematic > >conflating of alleged mental phenomena (the momentary, mind-constructed > phenomena > >that I have trouble finding and that Jon seems to accept but to dismiss) > and the > >nonexistent shadow entities they seem to refer to - that they project in > >imagination. > > > > I do not by any means *dismiss* concepts (life would be impossible > without them), but I think discussion about them helps one gain a better > understanding of what is meant by 'dhammas', and this I see as a crucial > aspect of the teachings. It is necessary to realise that what we take > as being (conventional) 'things' are not dhammas nor are they 'things > composed of' dhammas; the reality is simply multiple moments of > *conceptualising about things*. Only dhammas are real; anything else is > a concept or, to be more precise, mere conceptualising about (imagined) > things. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I like the foregoing paragraph of yours *very* much, Jon. I particularly like "It is necessary to realise that what we take as being (conventional) 'things' are not dhammas nor are they 'things composed of' dhammas; the reality is simply multiple moments of *conceptualising about things*." What I like so much about this is your talking about "conceptualizing about things" instead of talking about "concepts". --------------------------------------- > > There are no 'mind-constructed phenomena' such as you mention here; the > only phenomenon associated with this conceptualising is the momentary > mind/consciousness itself. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Agreed. ----------------------------------- > > > Is a chair a concept? Are there chairs at all? Well, I say that there > >really are no chairs, but to speak of chairs in not meaningless - it is > >abbreviational, figurative language. A tougher question: Is there a > *concept* of > >chair, and do we think of it. Jon seems to think so. I think not. I believe > there > >are mental processes that occure which we *call* thinking of the concept of > > >chair, but I do not think that introspection will ever reveal to us a > single > >mental phenomenon that is "concept of chair". > > > > > > No, I do not think there is such a 'thing' as a concept of a chair. As > I understand it, at the moment of thinking there is a chair there is > only conceptualising about 'chair', that is to say, there is the dhamma > of consciousness with idea of chair as its 'object'. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I was just about to say that we are in agreement until I read <>. In my opinion, no phenomenon that is "idea of chair" arises in the mind as object. There is merely the imagining that such is so. Had you stopped with <>, I would have said that we are in perfect agreement. ----------------------------------------- > > Jon > > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41773 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 10:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Howard: > I was just about to say that we are in agreement until I read <is the dhamma of consciousness with idea of chair as its 'object'>>. In my >opinion, no phenomenon that is "idea of chair" arises in the mind as object. >There is merely the imagining that such is so. Had you stopped with <moment of thinking there is a chair there is only conceptualising about 'chair'>>, I would have said that we are in perfect agreement. > > Just to clarify, I have already said that I do not mean to suggest any phenomenon that is "idea of chair" arises in the mind as object. As Nina pointed out the other day, 'object' in the context of object of consciousness is not to be equated with 'object' in any other sense. Consciousness *thinks of* idea of chair; idea of chair is, in that sense *object of* consciousness. No phenomena at that moment other than the consciousness that thinks of 'idea of chair'. Jon 41774 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, --------------------------- KH: > > The audience to the Sekha-patipada Sutta were given a description of a certain type of ariyan learner and his accomplishments. > > > T: > I was incorrect in underestimating the 500 rich Merchants, remember? Thanks to you, Nina and RobertK for correcting me (these 500 guys were all sotapanna!). So you may be right again here. ---------------- We are misunderstanding each other here, Tep. I was simply saying that the audience in the sutta was given a description of the ariyan disciples. I don't think it matters whether or not members of the audience were, themselves, ariyan. You seem to think it does matter. ----------------------- KH: > > Some suttas describe the qualities of the Tathagata and the way of the Bodhisatta. Obviously, we are not expected to treat them as a set of instructions. I feel sure the same applies equally (but less obviously) to all suttas. > > > T: > Prepared to be surprised, Ken. Read the following sutta excerpt and let me know what you think about whether it is a set of instructions or not. > ---------------------- :-) I am glad I added, "but less obviously." The example you gave does sound very much like a set of instructions. So, it is one of those suttas that are "less obviously" a description of reality. Remember, the world is nothing more than fleeting, worthless, void- of-self mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa). How can we tell nama and rupa to get off their backsides and follow a set of instructions? It doesn't make sense. The Dhamma only makes sense when it is seen as a description of all the possible combinations of citta, cetasikas and rupas. And that is all we need. When there is right understanding of the description, panna can arise to directly know nama and rupa. -------------------------- T: > BTW, I hope you still are not exhausted :<). -------------------------- Never! And I'm glad to hear that you, too, are bearing up. :-) ---------------------------- T: > I am glad you used the expression "deliberately know and devoted to". Your main point, "The key is to understand the Dhamma: the rest will follow naturally", does not depend on whether or not the practitioner knows moderation in eating, etc. In other words, you can eat six heavy meals each day and sleep 8 hours each night, study the texts and higher dhamma while eating, and still can understand the dhamma too. :-) ------------ As silly as it sounds, that is probably what I am saying. Provided there has been wise consideration of the Dhamma, even a glutton can have moments of right understanding. But the point is; at those moments there is no glutton - the akusala cetasikas (lobha, ahirika, thina, middha, moha and so on) do not arise. Ken H 41775 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited My response to the questions are as follows: 1. >who do you think you are? 2. >who do you think this "self" is? 3. >where do "you" come from? 4. >where will "you" go when you depart? 1. Me, myself, and I -- oh -- Charles Anthony DaCosta 2. That depends on the moment ... the answer is too relative to state in a few words. 3. My mother's womb. 4. This is a bit relative too, but ultimately, I will go to what, in the west, we often call the grave. ----- Original Message ----- From: TGrand458@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 31 January, 2005 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments invited In a message dated 1/31/2005 12:04:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: Dear Group, A good friend on another list asked me four questions - 1. >who do you think you are? 2. >who do you think this "self" is? 3. >where do "you" come from? 4. >where will "you" go when you depart? I would be sincerely interested in anyone's reply regarding my current understanding, with respect to the Buddha's teachings, and their own views as well: 41776 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Get more dukkha! This approach sounds tantric -- the bitter pill used for medicine. More and more suffering, soon you are immune. At least we hope. Charles D ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 31 January, 2005 11:23 PM Subject: [dsg] Get more dukkha! Hello everyone This morning, over breakfast, Sandra was reminding me of things I have to do today. One of these instructions was "get more dukkha". Not being fully awake, my mind struggled to comprehend. Was she cursing me? Was there some new-fangled theory that more dukkha was desirable? Then it dawned on me. She was talking about "duccah", a mixture of seeds that is sprinkled over warm bread and olive oil. So there you go, kind DSG folk, one and all, a hearty breakfast of dukkha/duccah will give you all the energy you need for the arising of right effort. (-: Best wishes Andrew T 41777 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: Anicca as characteristic --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Joop, and all. > > Thanks for this post. It got me thinking about anatta which is > always good. Thinking about anatta conditions a deeper understanding of anatta (hopefully!) Dear Phil Thanks for your reaction that also created a new thread. A pitty you (or somebody else) has not given a reaction to my core question: When only Nibbana is permanent, all other things are impermanant, how can one say that Kamma is not anicca? Why does not automatically kamma falls away (perhaps after a very long time), as the result of a built-in property of it? You said: "Abhidhamma is all about anatta, isn't it?" My answer: Yes, it is, and that is my problem: that's anatta but not anicca. You said: "Perhaps it's of less import to discuss impermanence because even though it is not as easy to understand as we might think, it is also not as profound and subtle an issue as anatta?" My answer: I don't agree with you, I don't think there is a Sutta in which a hierarchy of the three dukkha-anatta-anicca is made. Nytiloka even states: "It is from the fact of impermanence that, in most texts, the other two characteristics, suffering (dukkha) and not-self (anattá), are derived." You said: "So our interest in the characteristics might be conditioned by the preponderance within the roots we are born with?" My answer: Yes, I think our interest is conditioned in this way; but there are always more conditions than one. But when alobha (non- greed) can be combined with understanding of impermanence, and amoha (wisdom) with understanding of not-self, with what then can 'dukkha' be combined ? I think it's not a problem to combine (scientific) psychology with Abhidhamma, as long we realize Abhidhamma is more than psychology. So it's possible to combine personality-types with "roots-types" as you tried in your reaction to me and in message # 41752. One of the books of the Abhidhamma (I mean the Abhidhamma itself, not a commentary on it), is "Puggalapaññatti" ("Description of Individuals"); this book contains descriptions of a number of personality-types. I have not read it, even don't know if it is translated. So I don't know if those personality types are root-types. In his book "The heart of buddhist meditation", Nyanaponika quotes a explanation why there are Four Frames of Reference in the Satipatthana Sutta ? (# 70, "Typologie" in my dutch translation). As I understand this, four character-types are distinguished: much desire + slow intelligence; much desire + quick intelligence; liking theory + slow intelligence; liking theory + quick intelligence. I have some doubt which this system and I cannot understand how somebody with a slow intelligence can like theory (ditthhi-carita); but also the combination personality-typology and The teachings is made. Metta Joop 41778 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:55am Subject: Predominant roots? (was Re: Q. Pilgrimage India /Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I wrote this to Sarah yesterday: > > > BTW, this could again relate to the hetus (roots), as I > > mentionned > > in a post to Joop about annica. Hi Phil See my message # 41777 about this theme Metta Joop 41779 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 3:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: False a priori assumptions hidden in the 10 Indeterminable Questions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Joop, > > I just wished to say that I thought the research and sutta quotes you gave > on this thread were excellent and very helpful. snip > Your recent questions and comments on kamma are very good too. Sometimees > I think that it is those who really question every aspect as you and James > do, who potentially get the most benefit from the Teachings. > > Metta, > > Sarah Dear Sarah That's nice said of you. I prefer to give opinions and ask question about things that really bother me I should like it if you react on my thread about 'anicca as characteristic' including my question why kamma is not impermanent Metta Joop 41780 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 4:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (261) Dear Dhamma Friends, As I always include as PS: at the bottom of every Dhamma Thread post, I hope readers do not feel uneasy to read Pali words. If even a single Pali word does not make understand just give a reply. There may be 1000 words of Pali in a message and some may not know all 1000 words. At that time there is no need to go mad. Word by word study will help. Dhamma Thread starts with explanation on realities. It went through about consciousness (citta) and its associated phenomena called cetasikas (mental factors). Then it moved to material matter or material phenomena called rupa (material). Rupa in Dhamma setting in Dhamma Thread went deep and superficial things were not touched. After that Dhamma Threads explained the implications of cessation (nibbana). Panatti dhamma is also explained in a readily understandable style. There are citta (consciousness), cetasikas (mental factors), rupa (material), nibbana (cessation) exist as ultimate realities. These dhammas are always right. Panatti dhamma is also an interesting dhamma and it is also explained to some extent. Different cittas (consciousness) [89] were explained. Different cetasikas (mental factors) [52] were explained. Different rupa (material) [28] were explained. And then different classifications on citta (consciousness) were discussed in detail. Citta is not just that can be sensed as a single entity. But it is flowing like the flow of the water of a river. These different flows of cittas are explained in the form of citta-vithi (consciousness- procession). Actually there are citta, cetasika, rupa and their interactions. But as an illusion we see as life, man, deva, animal. Actually these events are served by different cittas along with their cetasikas and supporting rupas. I discussed centering on citta because citta can be centered in our own mind. Cittas may be one of 2 possibilities. They may be 1. in procession 2. not in procession When cittas are procession or vithi then they are working as consciousness mind equivalent of science mind. Regarding these different processions called vithi varas were explained. 1. panca-dvara vithi vara (5-door turn of procession) 2. kama javana mano-dvara vithi vara(sensuous impulsion mind-door top) 3. jhana javana vithi vara(absorption-impulsion turn of procession) 4. magga javana vithi vara(path-impulsion turn of procession) 5. abhinna javana vithi vara(super-power-impulsion turn of procession) 6. jhana-samapatti (absorption-attainment) 7. phala-samapatti (fruition-attainment) 8. nirodha-samapatti(cessation-attainment) Whenever we are alert we may be in one of these processions. But mostly in the 1st 2 processions that are kama javana vithi vara or 'sensuous impulsion turn of procession of cittas'. But in between these TOP or 'turn of procession' or 'vithi vara' there do arise bhavanaga cittas which are not the cittas in procession. When not in processions cittas will be one of three possibilities. They are 1. patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness or linking consciousness doing the job of linking the cuti citta or dying-consciousness of the immediate past life and the 1st bhavanaga citta of the current life. 2. bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness doing the job of continuing life when there is not in procession. 3. cuti citta or dying-consciousness doing the job of last arising or the job of moving to another state or the job of death. These 3 states are the state of mind when they are not in procession. The processions have been explained in some detail. Non-procession consciousness are illudedly viewed as beings in combination with rupas or materials. Beings or sattas in different realms (31) have been explained. Regarding the lifespan of beings 1. hell beings 2. animals 3. hungry ghosts 4. demons 5. human beings these 5 sattas or 5 kinds of being do not have a stable lifespan. From 1st to 6th deva realms, from 1st to 4th jhana realms, from 1st to 4th arupa jhana realms there are beings and they have a stable lifespan. 1. catumaharajika devas live 500 deva years or 9 million human years 2. tavatimsa devas live 2,000 deva years or 36 million years 3. yama devas live 8,000 deva years or 144 million years 4. tusita devas live 32,000 deva years or 576 million years 5. nimmanarati devas live 128,000 deva years or 2304 million years 6. paranimmita-vassavati devas live 512,000 deva years or 9216 million human years. 1. brahmaparisajja brahmas live one third of a kappa. 2. brahmapurohita brahmas live 2 thirds of a kappa. 3. mahabrahma brahmas live 1 kappa. 1. parittaabhaa brahmas live 2 kappas. 2. appamaanaabhaa brahmas live 4 kappas. 3. aabhassaraa brahmas live 8 kappas. 1. parittasubhaa brahmas live 16 kappas. 2. appamaanasubhaa brahmas live 32 kappas. 3. subhakinhna brahmas live 64 kappas. 1. vehapphalaa brahmas live 500 kappas. 2. asannisatta brahmas also live 500 kappas. 1. avihaa brahmas live 1,000 kappas. 2. atappaa brahmas live 2,000 kappas. 3. sudassaa brahmas live 4,000 kappas. 4. sudassii brahmas live 8,000 kappas. 5. akanittha brahmas live 16,000 kappas. 1. akaasanancayatana arupa brahmas live 20,000 kappas. 2. vinnanancayatana arupa brahmas live 40,000 kappas. 3. akincinnayatana arupa brahmas live 60,000 kappas. 4. nevasanna-nasannayatana arupa brahmas live 84,000 kappas. Even this longest living brahmas have to die there is no permanent being at all. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 41781 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 5:59am Subject: Re: the Five Indriyas, what is sati. Friend Sukinder (or should it rather be "pal" Sukinder?) - I am so sorry that you had waited for my response to the previous (but absolutely not "the last") mail of yours. Yes, there are still some loosed ends that need to be tied up. I apologize for my negligence and promise to write you a reply to day (after my regular morning walk). T: > > The idea (view, ditthi) of the 'self' who "directs sati" and the subtle, but wrong view, that "sati has to arise without interruption" >> have become clear to me for the first time. [Well, now I realize >> that I wasn't 'that impossible' to be taught!] > S: > > This is very encouraging :-). Frankly, I thought that you would be hard > to convince, but now I see that I was wrong. > T: But that is just one thin lyer of the thick, several-layer ditthi. More work to be done, admittedly. S: > > Btw, because you did not respond to my last post, I thought that you > might have been offended by something I wrote, perhaps the > comment about the 'uninstructed worldling'? If this is so, > allow me to explain. > T: Thank you for being open-minded and showing remorse. But I was not offended at all about that comment. Please feel free to discuss the Dhamma any way you like. People have different styles for expressing their opinion, and that's one reason why group discussion is interesting. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > > > Your golden message (# 41713) is very special to me -- the best > ever. 41782 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/5/05 1:22:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Consciousness *thinks of* idea of chair; idea of chair is, in that sense > *object of* consciousness. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Okay - *in that sense* an object. I'll go along with that. This is a use of informal language, and I do follow you. ------------------------------------- No phenomena at that moment other than the > > consciousness that thinks of 'idea of chair'. > ===================== Fine. I want to formulate th matter somewhat differently, but I think we mean the same thing. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41783 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >You seem to be saying that the "thinking consciousness" is one thing (a real >thing) and that thoughts are another thing (a not real thing). > Not quite. As I understand it, it's not a question of 2 different kinds of 'things', since there are no such 'things' as thoughts. > I can't >differentiate them in this way. In my thinking, they are mutualy dependent states >and one is just as actual as the other and neither can arise without the other >(as thinking consciousness). > > Yes, you have previously explained your idea of 'stored memories as potential thoughts', and I know you feel strongly that this is so. Would you care to explain the background to this idea, and how it fits in with your overall view of things? Just a thought here, but if as you say thoughts are a 'state' (dhamma), then since they are not nama-dhamma (dhamma that experiences an object) I suppose they would have to be rupa-dhamma (dhamma that does not experience an object). Is that how you would see it? Jon 41784 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >>Consciousness *thinks of* idea of chair; idea of chair is, in that sense >>*object of* consciousness. >> >> >> >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Okay - *in that sense* an object. I'll go along with that. This is a >use of informal language, and I do follow you. >------------------------------------- > > No phenomena at that moment other than the > > > >>consciousness that thinks of 'idea of chair'. >> >> >> >===================== > Fine. I want to formulate th matter somewhat differently, but I think >we mean the same thing. :-) > > That would be quite an event if it were so! I think I'll call it a night before the situation changes (late Saturday night here) ;-)) Talk to you and all again tomorrow. Jon 41785 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 8:16am Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Azita: what is this 'fall out at night' - i admit to an imaginative mind so here I'm thinking vampires :-0 >peace, > connie Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. Oh no, Azita, vampires fall out in the daytime (we hit the sack and they hit the body bag?). Do you fall out in a sprawl or all just so or ??? And the part of the V that talks about this isn't 'one of the preceding chapters' like I'd said but ch III, 74-102. Sorry. Laziness on my part not to look it up or just a big rush to be 'helpful' or what??? More 'and' than 'or'. Hard to say what all the motivations behind any whole act are when things change so fast. Not much to talk about when it comes to my personality. Or personalities if I'm to believe other people. Who can say "o, I never" or "I always" or what they would or wouldn't ever do? Mom says Connie means steadfast. I think it's more like contradictory. Buddhaghosa starts out at III 74 listing the 6 temperaments: greedy, hating, deluded, faithful, intelligent and speculative and then says some would make that 14. ... "As to meaning the temperaments are one, that is to say, personal nature, idiosyncrasy." ...96: "However, these directions for recognizing the temperaments have not been handed down in their entirety in either the texts or the commentaries; they are only expressed according to the opinion of the teachers and cannot therefore be treated as authentic ... this is said: 'A teacher who has acquired penetration of minds will know the temperament and will explain a meditation subject accordingly; one who has not should question the pupil'...". 130: ..."a teacher who has not can know it by putting such questions to him as 'What is your temperament?' or 'What states are usually present in you?' or 'What do you like bringing to mind?' or 'What meditation subject does your mind favour?'..." 133: ..."he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament..." So, yeah, I suppose we should know our own temperament and I'll just have to say 'deluded' or that Connie means 'drowning in the ocean of concepts'. I am, in this lifetime, in the words of III, 80, one who "has formerly drunk a lot of intoxicants and neglected learning and questioning". Furthermore, once I quit drinking, I graduated to developing some nice needle-toothed vampire marks on my arms and only returned to any 'learning and questioning' after I'd found some "Buddhist" books in a dumpster. peace, connie 41786 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 9:29am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Hi Sukinder, my pal - This is my reply to your message #41327. Again, I am sorry for the long delay. S: (about pariyatti and patipatti) From my perspective, pariyatti is inferior to patipatti only in that the latter is direct knowing of that which the former points to. However, any decision which says to the effect that pariyatti should be abandoned, is in my opinion, based on wrong understanding. T: I am in agreement with you here, except that I think only pativedha (penetration, realization) is "direct knowing", not patipatti. S: How many monks and laypersons do you know who equate patipatti with a moment of satipatthana, and how many of them would not think that to practice means to sit and meditate? T: There is more than one way to reach the top of a mountain. Most monks and laypersons I know, who are "serious" Buddhists, believe in finding the shortest cut through Sila- Samadhi- Panna, where Samadhi means Samadhi-bhavana and Panna means Vipassana-bhavana as expounded in the Visuddhimagga (which is based on many suttas). The "moment of satipatthana", as I understand it, is a part of Vipassana for attaining pativedha. S: Besides dana and sila without sati and panna to know the moment are just that, I don't think these should be considered patipatti otherwise. Parami is parami only in so far as there is knowing the moment for what it is, otherwise it just conditions a habit. T: Dana and Sila are part of the "brick-laying" like Connie used to say. If you want to call that parami, not included in patipatti, it is fine with me too. S: (About "appreciating the value of conditioned realities") One may consider the difference between kusala and akusala or one may think about the visesa lakkhana of various dhammas or one may think about other conditions and any other aspects of Teachings. But yes, I think it is important to keep in mind the three characteristics. T: I like the way you say it. Nina would have given you a perfect grade for this answer. S: But why did you ask, "when you are alone"? T: Being alone is kaya-viveka ('abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects'). S: We don't know what level of akusala will arise at any given moment, likewise what level of sati and panna. This is why it is good to listen and consider more and more, because we need all sorts of reminders. T: I think you need to do more bhavana and less reading and listening (unless you listen to Dhamma talks given by an Ariya). S: We do however need to know the difference between samatha and vipassana. We should see the importance of developing panna as taught particularly by the Buddha. Also it is important to know clearly their difference. T: How would you know "the difference between samatha and vipassana" if you do very little (or zero?) samatha-bhavana but a lot more on listening and reading? S: (About the importance of Right exertion and viriya-bala) Are you thinking that there is some `short cut method', one that will bypass any lack of accumulated parami? Many people view meditation practice, particularly `jhana', in this way. They think that these are special techniques taught by the Buddha and developed by later `masters' (Zen, Dzogchen etc) for the purpose of getting to enlightenment `in this very life'. I think this is all symptomatic of `attachment to self'. T: Those later masters cannot be complete fools. Don't put them down too easily! The strength of Right exertion/effort that is the characteristic of viriya bala is important like a rocket booster to propell a spacecraft into the outer space. Many, many stories of successful monks during the Buddha Era and after that to the recent history, e.g. those several well-known Burmese and Thai acariyas ( the Forest monks) are my supporting evidence, Sukinder. How many monks and lay-persons you know have achieved an Ariya-magga without the "formal meditation" and jhanas? Can you give me just one name, please?:-) > Tep: Part of the above sutta quote is "monk generates desire, > endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent ...". All > these words (desire, endeavor, arouse persistence, uphold and exert > intention) points to "deliberate cultivation". S: Does it? I think they point to dhammas, all of them kusala and each performing their particular functions. The viriya here can't arise without sati and panna and none can arise without saddha. Cetana performs its very important function, but panna is the leader of a moment of satipatthana, which is what this passage is pointing to. T: Okay, you want to talk theoretical dhammas. Let's discuss like two bookworms would do. First, everything is dhamma. Second, when viriya becomes samma-vayama (Right effort/exertion) along with samma-sati and samma-ditthi, the other Path factors become highly developed. When all the 7 Path factors are matured, samma-samadhi arises (See the Great Forty, MN 117). Further, do you remember the following passage from the Visuddhimagga (VM I,7)? "Develops consciousness and understanding: develops both concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described here under the heading of 'consciousness', and insight under that of 'understanding'. Ardent (aataapin): possessing energy. For it is energy that is called 'ardour' (aataapa) in the sense of burning up and consuming (aataapana- paritaapana) defilements." This shows how important trying-hard-the- right-way is. > Tep: Further, the four right exertions above show clearly that the > monk has an intention, a purpose to develop and culminate > his arisen skillful qualities (kusala dhammas) towards Nibbana > (as the goal). I think you are talking about the one who is able to > "know and see things the way > they really are", not about > the mind of a worldling who has not reahed > that state. > Before getting "there" you need "an act of will" with right exertions; > once there, no need for intention. [ T: Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi probably shares the above view for he defines samma-sankappa as Right intention.] S: No! I am talking about a "correct" intellectual grasp of the `way things are'. I am talking about the value of such moments, weak as they might be in terms of panna, that it sees the danger in "wrong practice" and is able to avoid it. I see this as requiring patience and courage and `self' not being drawn to "do" something. T: I completely agree with you (and Nina) about the danger of 'self' that is subtly directing everything because of tanha and avijja. But I also see a real danger in being an Armchair Dhamma Discusser, who knows everything but accomplishes little because he/she does not want to try "too hard" and wants to hold on to all (mundane) precious things in life. May I stop at this point because the remainder does not involve new issues? It is nice discussing with you, Sukinder, because you are, without any doubt, a very intelligent man. I always learn from intelligent people, one way or another. Warm regards, Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > Welcome back to the forum. > ----------------- > S> Thanks, but I wasn't away, only I didn't have the stamina to read > more than one or two posts at a time. > --------------------- (snipped) S> But a moment of understanding does accumulate and develop and it has to start from some where…… ;-) > Thanks Tep for spending the time to respond and giving me the > opportunity to reflect some more. > > Metta, > Sukinder 41787 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/5/2005 7:28:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: Yes, you have previously explained your idea of 'stored memories as potential thoughts', and I know you feel strongly that this is so. Would you care to explain the background to this idea, and how it fits in with your overall view of things? Just a thought here, but if as you say thoughts are a 'state' (dhamma), then since they are not nama-dhamma (dhamma that experiences an object) I suppose they would have to be rupa-dhamma (dhamma that does not experience an object). Is that how you would see it? Jon Hi Jon A mind-object would be classified as a nama. Namas do not exist without being based on rupa. I've explained in enough detail to get my idea accross as best as I can. I'll I can do is repeat or rephrase. So I'll leave it for you to contemplate over if you wish. I really think the term "dhamma" has done far more harm than good. There are not these "real states" out there with individual essence. You may think that this is not what you are saying, but I don't see how it can be anything other than that. To me, this "isolation" of trying to see individual states as having realities...is taking the mind away from reality, not bringing it toward it. Nothing like a little commentary in the morning. TG 41788 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/4/2005 9:42:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: TG wrote... I noticed "wrong view" is listed as a cetasika. Wouldn't "self view" be > classified under that? > > TG Hi Howard Can't let you off the hook without asking you to answer the above question if you would care to. TG 41789 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/5/05 1:29:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > In a message dated 2/4/2005 9:42:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... > writes: > > TG wrote... > I noticed "wrong view" is listed as a cetasika. Wouldn't "self view" be > >classified under that? > > > >TG > > Hi Howard > > Can't let you off the hook without asking you to answer the above question > if > you would care to. > > TG > ======================= Well, if wrong view is a cetasika, then so is self view, because self view is certainly wrong. However, this is not how I use the language. I typically think of one's view on a matter as conceptual. I think of wrong views as mistaken notions, all conditioned by ignorance. I think of *sense* of self (in the person or in dhammas) as fundamental ignorance, and a cetasika. Whether that matches Abhidhammic definitions or not is another matter. Part of the problem is Pali usage versus my own English usage. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41790 From: mnease Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: for James Hi Robert and Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: for James > I am not sure if the comments by Venerable Bodhi should be > considered so highly in this case. > The section he is writing about in the Abhidhammathasangaha is > detailing various momentary phenomena. It is true that one type of > samma samadhi is mundane jhana but I see nowhere in the section to > indicate that Anuruddha was restricting samma samadhi to this. In > fact it seems unlikely he would be. > The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin). > P58. Triplets in the Matika > "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about > severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny > like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a > wall." > "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being > accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that > round of rebirth" > It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e > akusala AND kusala. The Dispeller adds IMPERTURBABLE states to these--i.e., those conditioned by jhaana. > It notes that the way leading to dispersion > is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). > There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives > much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome > consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain > all the different types of mundane Jhanas. Thus the mudane jhanas - > although classified as samma samadhi are also classified as leading > to accumulation (of rebirth). Right-- > Part of the confusion about this subject is that many suttas are > addressed to those monks who had mastery of jhana, they could enter > and exit at will, many levels of jhana. They were the cream of the > Buddha's disciples. And of these ones they can - immediately after > exiting jhana- have awareness of the factors of teh various jhanas > they were in. And so use jhana as a base for development of teh > eightfold path leading out of samsara. This is how it seems to me too. > According to the texts these > most developed disciples can no longer exist. > Another commenst on venerables Bodhi's translation of sammasankappa > as right INTENTION. All these pali terms do not have exact english > equivalents so there are always problems, but Intention seems an > unfortunate choice of term for sankappa. > Sankappa is the mental factor (cetasika) vitakka and Bodhi > translates it as 'initial application' at times . So why use > Intention? For cetana he uses volition. What is the difference > between volition and Intention? I agree with this exception. Sammaasankappa (absent of course from all but the first jhaana) together WITH pa~n~naa constitute the wisdom section of the path--pa~n~naa cannot discern the tilakkhaa.na alone. mike 41791 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/5/2005 11:05:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: TG wrote... > I noticed "wrong view" is listed as a cetasika. Wouldn't "self view" be > >classified under that? > > > >TG > > Hi Howard > > Can't let you off the hook without asking you to answer the above question > if > you would care to. > > TG > ======================= Well, if wrong view is a cetasika, then so is self view, because self view is certainly wrong. However, this is not how I use the language. I typically think of one's view on a matter as conceptual. I think of wrong views as mistaken notions, all conditioned by ignorance. I think of *sense* of self (in the person or in dhammas) as fundamental ignorance, and a cetasika. Whether that matches Abhidhammic definitions or not is another matter. Part of the problem is Pali usage versus my own English usage. With metta, Howard Hi Howard (and Jon) Thanks for the clarification. I see sense-of-self much as you do. But I see this fundamental delusion as joining other mental constructs to develop self-view. And I see concepts as also being mental constructs that are associated with these "self" perspectives. Therefore, I really don't see that one is more real than the other. They proliferate due to conditions. If "sense-of'self" is a real thing, so are these other states that are just sense-of-self proliferations. I don't see one iota of difference between their so-called "reality." Nothing can arise without being part of the "conditional matrix" that makes up the whole field-of-conditions. How could something arise that is less real (or not real at all) then something else? And does such a question have anything to do with the Buddha's teaching? TG 41792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Jon and Larry, what a pity, it was a nice dialogue about kusala, Larry's kusala, and about performing kusala without having to think first about it. Jon gave the examples. I hope you will both continue. Nina. op 05-02-2005 06:16 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jsabbott@n...: >> I've lost the thread. I don't know what either one of us is talking >> about. >> > > Glad to know I'm not the only one ;-)) > >> Maybe we should start over. > > Your serve. > > Jon 41793 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: Anicca as characteristic Hi Joop, > J: can one say that Kamma is not anicca? Why does not automatically > kamma falls away (perhaps after a very long time), as the result of > a built-in property of it? kel: it is anicca, kamma is nothing more than the link between previous citta and current citta. There is no permanent thing that exists. Note original citta has already fallen away, it's the persisting effect that cause the resultant. Once citta/kamma has given it's resultant, it falls away not because of time but because it's function is done. The built-in property is cause and effect and tranistory nature of anicca is the same here. > Phi:You said: "Abhidhamma is all about anatta, isn't it?" > J:My answer: Yes, it is, and that is my problem: that's anatta but not > anicca. kel: both are purely academic statements since abhidhamma is about all dhammas. > You said: "Perhaps it's of less import to discuss impermanence > because even though it is not as easy to understand as we might > think, it is also not as profound and subtle an issue as anatta?" > My answer: I don't agree with you, I don't think there is a Sutta in > which a hierarchy of the three dukkha-anatta-anicca is made. Nytiloka > even states: "It is from the fact of impermanence that, in most > texts, > the other two characteristics, suffering (dukkha) and not-self > (anattá), are derived." kel: Transitory nature of phenomena is what proves there's a lack of atta. A lack of a core is what proves it's all impermanent. And since nothing is there to latch onto for safety, it's all dukkha. So both arguments are redundant, drawing a line where there is none. > J: As I understand this, four character-types are > distinguished: much desire + slow intelligence; much desire + quick > intelligence; liking theory + slow intelligence; liking theory + > quick intelligence. > I have some doubt which this system and I cannot understand how > somebody with a slow intelligence can like theory (ditthhi- carita); Kel: if you look at D.O, the roots are: tanha and avijja. That's how it should be understood in terms of these personalities and what phil was asking. kaya - high tanha, low panna vedana - high tanha, high panna citta - high avijja but particulary ditthi, low panna dhamma - high avijja, high panna It's not liking theory as much as what can refute the leading akusala tendency. Since tanha is based on sensual pleasures, contemplating kaya/vedana leads to dispelling that. Some people's problem is ego and pride with what they know of dhamma etc. So nama/dhamma is mainly what they identify with and hence contemplating on their nature dispel wrong egotistical views. I use panna here instead of intelligence because it goes to show why each one is more suited. Kaya is easier to observe (more apparent) than vedana as citta is compared to dhamma. So highly intelligent ones will incline toward a harder, more elusive object. Eventually you got to get to the same vipassana-nanas but the orientation and the object is different. It's all about the anchor one is more comfortable with. - kel 41794 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:42pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Ken H., KH: > We are misunderstanding each other here, Tep. I was simply saying > that the audience in the sutta was given a description of the ariyan > disciples. I don't think it matters whether or not members of the > audience were, themselves, ariyan. You seem to think it does matter. > T: I am glad that this is a smal misunderstanding, Ken. It helps me to make my point easily in case the audience were not ariyan. Because I can say, "Aha! these steps are my model too,". Otherwise, you might say that the "instructions" were given only to atiyans. KH: > > Remember, the world is nothing more than fleeting, worthless, void- > of-self mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa). > How can we tell nama and rupa to get off their backsides > and follow a set of instructions? It doesn't make sense. > T: Yes, I agree with that ariyan's insight knowledge, Ken. But if we used the terms of the one who knows and sees (the nama and rupa the way they really are), then we'd sound like faked mathematicians discussing the higher-level theory that we have no idea how to prove. Then it does not make sense either. KH: > > Provided there has been wise consideration of the Dhamma, > even a glutton can have moments of right understanding. > But the point is; at those moments there is no glutton - > the akusala cetasikas > (lobha, ahirika, thina, middha, moha and so on) do not arise. > T: That moment between chewings? But which level of "understanding" do you think the glutton might be able to achieve while being absorbed in eating pleasure? By the way, isn't nekkhamma sankappa important for dispassion? How can a person who cannot become dispassionate with sensual pleasures achieve a vipassana-nana? This is beyond my imagination! Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --------------------------- > KH: > > The audience to the Sekha-patipada Sutta were given a > description of a certain type of ariyan learner and his > accomplishments. > > > >(snipped) > ----------------------- 41795 From: Philip Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Revulsion ? Hi all Found this in a notebook: "Ordinarily you are really only dissatisfied with your dislikes. You have to become fed up with your dislikes and your likes, your happiness and your suffering." (Don't know the source.) It reminded me of the "revulsion" that appears in so many suttas. The monk comes to see annica, dukkha and anatta and then feels "revulsion" for the khandas, followed by "dispassion" and finally liberation. Revulsion has connotations of disgust, loathing, intensely negative feeling which to me doesn't sound like the way to go about things skillfully, though perhaps there needs to be a moment of such feeling to wake us up. I wonder what is meant by this word, whether the Pali is not quite as intense in its connotations? Whether "fed up" might not be quite a good way to put it. I like the above quote. So easy to be dissatisfied with dislikes while drifing along obliviously in one's likes, churning up a great wake of kamma as we go. What is the Pali used for "revulsion" and what are its connotations? Thanks in advance. Metta Phil p.s thanks in passing to Connie, Azita and Joop for your feedback in the "predominant roots" thread. Very interesting. Back to you on it tomorrow. 41796 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revulsion ? Hi Phil Just a few comments. I believe insight needs to take the mind through a phase that sees all conditions as tied up with suffering and death with great clarity. Conditions with this perspective can only be seen as revolting. This type of revulsion is not the emotional type of revultion we normally think of...it is it is an 'insight attribute' and an unattached spiritual state of mind. TG 41797 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: Revulsion ? What is the Pali used for "revulsion" and what are its connotations? Thanks in advance. Metta Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, Revulsion may be 'viraga' in Pali. I may also be 'vikheppa'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 41798 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >For consciousness not to have an actual object to be "conscious of" is >impossible according to Sutta or Abhidhamma as far as I know. During thinking, >consciousness has an "actual object." One needs to figure out what it is and how >it operates ... so that dependent origination principles are more clearly >seen. This is what Howard is alluding to I believe. > > I believe it is correct to say that consciousness must have an object, but I am not sure whether that must necessarily be an "actual object", whatever that may mean, since as far as I understand things there is nothing 'actual' about thoughts, only about the consciousness concerned. Sorry I'm not able to explain it any better than this, of course I'm not speaking from direct experience here ;-)). Jon 41799 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's suttas, 2. Sutta no 3. Hi, Nina Thanks for the extra detail about 'taming'. Very interesting. The correlation between the 3 'things prescribed by the wise' mentioned in the main text of the sutta and the qualities set out in the verse seems to be as follows: Giving: Giving Going forth: Harmlessness, self-control and taming Service to one's parents: Service to one's dear parents and to those who live the holy life So the reference to 'going forth' is a reference to qualities that (in their mundane form) can be developed by all of us, in daily life. Jon Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Jon, >Thank you very much for the verse, BB translation. >It helped me, I can add something now. See below. >op 02-02-2005 23:05 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jsabbott@n...: > > >>Here is the verse from the BB translation, for comparison: >>The wise prescribe giving, >>Harmelssness, self-control and taming, >>Service to one's dear parents >>And to those who live the holy life. >>These are the kinds of deeds >>T which the wise person resorts. >>The noble one, possessed of vision, >>Passes to an auspicous world. >> >>A footnote to the verse reads: >>'It seems that in the verse, the "going forth" is represented by >>"harmlessness, self-control and taming", since these are the practices >>undertaken by those who go forth. >> >> >N: Taming, the Thai Pali had thama, in Pali dama, and now I see: taming, >subduing. The Co adds: uposatha sila, and also in the Punnovaadasutta: >khanti, patience, and also paññaa in the Alavakasutta. Thus, taming includes >several qualities, patience and wisdom. Harmlessness, self-control and >taming are virtues of the recluse. He lives a life of non-violence. Also >laypeople can develop those virtues. >Nina. > > 41800 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H ------ In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > T: That moment between chewings? But which level of "understanding" > do you think the glutton might be able to achieve while being absorbed > in eating pleasure? By the way, isn't nekkhamma sankappa important > for dispassion? How can a person who cannot become dispassionate > with sensual pleasures achieve a vipassana-nana? This is beyond > my imagination! > >======== Dear Tep, The sotapanna has eradicated wrong view, not sense desire. Thus the main factor that needs to be eliminated is wrong view. There are so many stories of sotapanna and sakagami who were still emmersed in sense pleasures. Consider the six archers who tried to kill Buddha but who becmae sotapanna with their bows still in their hands. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tinhla01.htm "Devadatta went to King Ajatasattu and proposed that he himself would kill the Buddha while Ajatasattu should kill his father Bimbisara. He having received skilful archers from Rajagariha put one on a certain path by which the Buddha would come, two on another, four further up, and so on up to sixteen with strict instructions to kill the Buddha with poisoned arrows. But when the first man approached the Buddha, he became terrified and his body became stiff and unable to raise his hand. The Buddha told him not to fear and the man threw down his weapons and confessed his nefarious purpose. Thereupon the Buddha preached to him, converted him and sent him back by a different route. The next two archers not seeing the man, followed up and found the Buddha seated beneath a tree. They approached the Buddha but could not shoot, and like the first archer they became converted. The same happened to all the rest"" All became sotapanna, there and then. Does this seem strange. But it is not because they had the parami to understand Dhamma. In the time it takes for a flash of lightning, billions of mind moments have arisen and passed away. These are - in the ultimate sense - each a new life, where insight can come in and know the characteristic of nama or rupa. But we tend to cling to the idea of me who exists for seconds or minutes or hours. But no Robert anywhere, and nothing that lasts even for a split second. Just new lives appearing and disappearing by conditions- simply elements - but like puppets on a string they give the appearance of beings who are able to do this or that. Robertk 41801 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/5/05 3:03:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard (and Jon) > > Thanks for the clarification. > > I see sense-of-self much as you do. But I see this fundamental delusion as > joining other mental constructs to develop self-view. And I see concepts as > > also being mental constructs that are associated with these "self" > perspectives. > Therefore, I really don't see that one is more real than the other. They > proliferate due to conditions. If "sense-of'self" is a real thing, so are > these > other states that are just sense-of-self proliferations. I don't see one > iota of difference between their so-called "reality." > > Nothing can arise without being part of the "conditional matrix" that makes > up the whole field-of-conditions. How could something arise that is less > real > (or not real at all) then something else? And does such a question have > anything to do with the Buddha's teaching? > > TG > > ======================== Perhaps the following will clarify my take on ideas/notions/concepts: I don't think they are single phenomena. When for example the "idea of tree" arises, what is actually happening is a whole bunch of experiential events occurring, including many pictures, remembered (or currently experienced) touchings, odors, word associations etc, etc, plus an over-arching sense of unity, often created by the use of the sound sequence "t r e e". In none of this do I find a single thing (as are hardness, a sight, a sound, etc single phenomena) that is the concept "tree". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41802 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 1:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/5/05 7:11:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > I believe it is correct to say that consciousness must have an object, > but I am not sure whether that must necessarily be an "actual object", > whatever that may mean, since as far as I understand things there is > nothing 'actual' about thoughts, only about the consciousness > concerned. Sorry I'm not able to explain it any better than this, of > course I'm not speaking from direct experience here ;-)). > ====================== Two thoughts, Jon: 1) A non-actual (i.e. imagined) object is not an object at all. In fact it is nothing. There may be the imagining tht there is an object, but that does not create some thing that is an "imagined object". 2) As far as thoughts not being actual, are not mental pictures, recognitions, and recollections of tastes, sights, and sounds thoughts that are "actual"? Why is a recalled sound any less "actual" than, say, anger? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41803 From: mnease Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Tep, > Tep: These Merchants must be the very rare kind of trade people > (whose main concern is not money, money, and money) because the > qualification "perfected sila" couldn't be achieved by just listening to > the Great Sage: they had to earnestly train themselves for some time. No trade people, no one there at all--just designations of aggregates, just like you and me. > And on top of the perfected sila foundation, they must have to develop > the seven enlightenment factors and see through the Four Noble > Truths! Siila can't be perfected by non-entities (selves etc.)--only by the path. Whenever 'I' think 'I' can develop the path, already perversion rules. That's how it seems to me, anyway... mike 41804 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/5/2005 6:38:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Perhaps the following will clarify my take on ideas/notions/concepts: I don't think they are single phenomena. When for example the "idea of tree" arises, what is actually happening is a whole bunch of experiential events occurring, including many pictures, remembered (or currently experienced) touchings, odors, word associations etc, etc, plus an over-arching sense of unity, often created by the use of the sound sequence "t r e e". In none of this do I find a single thing (as are hardness, a sight, a sound, etc single phenomena) that is the concept "tree". With metta, Howard Hi Howard Amazing. I see it exactly the same way but draw a very different conclusion. I see all the "bits" that go together to make a concept to be actual states. I don't think of a concept (or anything for that matter) as "separate states." For example, there is no such thing as a "separate state" of consciousness. Therefore, its a non-reality according to that style of analysis. But since I don't accept that style of analysis, its a non-issue to me. This lack of separateness is even true of each of the Four Great Elements. Each of these elements are dependent on the relative configuration of the other three. So how could any "one of them" be a single phenomena? Its not possible IMO. I see where you're coming from, and I agree where you're coming from, I just don't agree where you're going to. ;-) TG 41805 From: Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 2/5/2005 6:56:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Two thoughts, Jon: 1) A non-actual (i.e. imagined) object is not an object at all. In fact it is nothing. There may be the imagining tht there is an object, but that does not create some thing that is an "imagined object". 2) As far as thoughts not being actual, are not mental pictures, recognitions, and recollections of tastes, sights, and sounds thoughts that are "actual"? Why is a recalled sound any less "actual" than, say, anger? With metta, Howard Hi Howard A "imagined object" is a thought and the thought is the actual object. Where is this idea coming from that a "thought" is supposed to be something other than the thought??? That's the object...the thought. And sure, the thought is a conglomeration of conditions...just as all conditions are. A recalled sound is not the sound, but it is the thought about the sound. The thought about the sound does not reproduce the sound, its not meant to...it remembers the sound through thinking. The thought, or thinking, is the object and it is as "real" as any other state that arises due to conditions. Not to worry, I'm sure I'll get tired of this soon enough. TG 41806 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 11:42pm Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: ......snip....... > Buddhaghosa starts out at III 74 listing the 6 temperaments: greedy, > hating, deluded, faithful, intelligent and speculative and then says some > would make that 14. ... "As to meaning the temperaments are one, that is > to say, personal nature, idiosyncrasy." ...96: "However, these directions > for recognizing the temperaments have not been handed down in their > entirety in either the texts or the commentaries; they are only expressed > according to the opinion of the teachers and cannot therefore be treated > as authentic ... this is said: 'A teacher who has acquired penetration of > minds will know the temperament and will explain a meditation subject > accordingly; one who has not should question the pupil'...". 130: ..."a > teacher who has not can know it by putting such questions to him as 'What > is your temperament?' or 'What states are usually present in you?' or > 'What do you like bringing to mind?' or 'What meditation subject does your > mind favour?'..." > 133: ..."he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one > that suits his own temperament..." Azita: ONe would have to really trust that the teacher who was giving this meditation subject, really knew his/her 'stuff'. I believe that if one is meditating on a subject that was unsuitable for that person's temperament, then the outcome is not very good. Please don't ask for references, anybody, I don't have any; just remember something that was discussed in the group with the late Ven. Dhammadharo. > > So, yeah, I suppose we should know our own temperament and I'll just have > to say 'deluded' or that Connie means 'drowning in the ocean of > concepts'. Azita: I like that :-) and I think we could say that was true for all of us who are not ariyans. I am, in this lifetime, in the words of III, 80, one who "has > formerly drunk a lot of intoxicants and neglected learning and > questioning". Azita: mmmm, I can relate to that and would add 'drunk and inhaled...' Furthermore, once I quit drinking, I graduated to > developing some nice needle-toothed vampire marks on my arms and only > returned to any 'learning and questioning' after I'd found some "Buddhist" > books in a dumpster. > > peace, > connie Azita: you make me smile, Connie. I like your candidness - if that's really a word!! At least, this is where we are at the present point in samsara, so lets not waste it this time, who knows when we next get the opportunity. Even knowing this, I sometimes choose to do something else rather than picking up a dhamma book and reading. Or do I really choose? given there is no choice, maybe its accumulations/tendencies, even temperament that goes to the movies instead of dhamma reading? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41807 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 11:51pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 117 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (a) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)] ***** Jívitindriya (life-faculty or vitality) and manasikåra (attention) are two other cetasikas among the seven universals which arise with every citta. As regards jívitindriya,(1) this cetasika sustains the life of the citta and cetasikas it accompanies. According to the Atthasåliní (part IV, Chapter I, 123, 124)(2) the characteristic of jívitindriya is “ceaseless watching”, its function is to maintain the life of the accompanying dhammas, its manifestation the establishment of them, and the proximate cause are the dhammas which have to be sustained. The function of jívitindriya is to maintain the life of citta and its accompanying cetasikas. It keeps them going until they fall away. Since jívitindriya arises and falls away together with the citta, it performs its function only for a very short while. Each moment of citta consists actually of three extremely short periods: -the arising moment (uppåda kha.na) -the moment of its presence, or static moment (ti.t.thi kha.na) -the dissolution moment (bha'nga kha.na). *** 1) Jívita.m means “life”, and indriya means “controlling faculty”. 2) See also Dhammasangaùi §19. ***** [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41808 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hello MIke, Great and precise reminders Mike, thank you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > Tep: These Merchants must be the very rare kind of trade people > > (whose main concern is not money, money, and money) because the > > qualification "perfected sila" couldn't be achieved by just listening to > > the Great Sage: they had to earnestly train themselves for some time. > > No trade people, no one there at all--just designations of aggregates, just > like you and me. > > > And on top of the perfected sila foundation, they must have to develop > > the seven enlightenment factors and see through the Four Noble > > Truths! > > Siila can't be perfected by non-entities (selves etc.)--only by the path. > Whenever 'I' think 'I' can develop the path, already perversion rules. > That's how it seems to me, anyway... > > mike > Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 41809 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:19am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 117 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (a) Hi Sarah, thanx for your efforts on this study corner. I can understand the jivitindriya that sustains the life of 'our' rupa but find it hard to get my thoughts around citta needing something to sustain it. However, it is not a big issue for me, just am surprised that this is so, and the more I contemplate it the more feasible it is. Interesting! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)] > ***** > Jívitindriya (life-faculty or vitality) and manasikåra (attention) > are two other cetasikas among the seven universals which arise > with every citta. > > As regards jívitindriya,(1) this cetasika sustains > the life of the citta and cetasikas it accompanies. > > According to the Atthasåliní (part IV, Chapter I, 123, 124)(2) the > characteristic of jívitindriya is "ceaseless watching", its function is to > maintain the life of the accompanying dhammas, its manifestation the > establishment of them, and the proximate cause are the dhammas > which have to be sustained. > > The function of jívitindriya is to maintain the life of citta and its > accompanying cetasikas. It keeps them going until they fall away. > Since jívitindriya arises and falls away together with the citta, it > performs its function only for a very short while. Each moment of > citta consists actually of three extremely short periods: > > -the arising moment (uppåda kha.na) > -the moment of its presence, or static moment (ti.t.thi kha.na) > -the dissolution moment (bha'nga kha.na). > *** > 1) Jívita.m means "life", and indriya means "controlling faculty". > > 2) See also Dhammasangaùi §19. > ***** > [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 41810 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Howard OK, well let's agree that the suttas contain both (a) exhortations to a reclusive lifestyle devoted to the development of samatha and vipassana and (b) detailed explanations of aspects such as dhammas (as khandhas, ayatanas, elements, etc.), the 3 characteristics, the 4 Noble Truths, D.O., etc., and exhortations to consider and apply, then and there as well as at other times, what is so explained. I think what you are saying in your answer below, particularly your reference to the listeners at the time of the Buddha being 'well practiced', is that those listeners who benefited from a discourse along the lines at (b) were able to do so because they had already served their time practising as described at (a). I see it somewhat differently. I see the teaching at (a) as a teaching directed to those relatively few monks with already highly developed samatha and insight who were potentially capable of attaining enlightenment based on jhanas and perhaps of attaining other powers also. But the detailed explanation and exhortation to listen more, consider more, apply more, is I believe the general teaching given for both monks in general and for lay people. A reclusive lifestyle is not in itself a condition for the development of insight -- in fact it can only be a supporting condition for those who are truly up to the (much greater) demands of enlightenment 'with distinction' (not with a mere 'pass' grade). Some more comments interspersed below. upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Kel) - > >In a message dated 2/4/05 7:11:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jsabbott@n... writes: > > > >>Generally speaking, did the Buddha advise his >>listeners in terms of special practice in a quiet place, or did he >>rather explain in great detail the way things are and urge his listeners >>to consider and apply what he was explaining? >> >> >----------------------------------- >Howard: > Yes, and yes. >----------------------------------- > > > >>How come so many people >>became enlightened while actually listening to a teaching about the >>khandhas or ayatanas, impermanence and not-self: content that may seem >>to us not particularly deep? Are we perhaps missing something? >> >> > >------------------------------------ >Howard: > Yes. what we are missing was 1) the listeners were well practiced, and >2) It was a BUDDHA they were in the presence of. > > Of course the listeners at the time of the Buddha were of more highly developed insight than we are (this is something I have often mentioned); and of course hearing the dhamma from the mouth of a Buddha is an extremely powerful experience. No argument there. Just to clarify, when I asked if we were missing something I did not of course mean, 'Why aren't we becoming enlightened like they did?', but 'Why don't we see the listening to and consideration of those things (at (b) above) as sufficient to lead to the development of insight?'. In other words, why do we think insight cannot be developed without truing to practice in the way given at (a)? There is no suggestion in the texts of intensive, secluded 'practice' as being recommended for those of less-developed insight -- or do you see this kind of message? Jon 41811 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:45am Subject: Self view, conceit, sense of self etc. Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >Hi Howard and Jon > >Question... Does the sense-of-self, self view, conceit of I, etc. arise or >not? If so or if not, how would you distinguish these from concepts? > > I've seen your subsequent exchanges with Howard. I think it may help if you could give some specific examples. 'Sense of self' could mean a number of things, and likewise conceit as used conventionally. Self view and conceit have very specific meanings in the teachings. But well worth pursuing. Jon 41812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Revulsion ? Hi Phil. nibbidaa is one of the words, meaning: weariness, disenchantment with worldly life. Often in combination with viraaga: dispassionateness, destruction of passions, emancipation. Nina. op 05-02-2005 23:35 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > What is the Pali used for "revulsion" and what are its > connotations? Thanks in advance. 41813 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Kel Thanks for the detailed comments and observations. kelvin_lwin wrote: > Kel: I was just being a bit facetious which you noticed. A few >discussion appears to go something like, "that is what Buddha said >but don't you think this is what he actually meant?" I just don't >see how to draw a definite conclusion since he's no longer around to >ask for clarification. > > Fair enough. But how about the commentaries -- or do you see them as part of this problem? The fact is, there's a lot that's left unsaid in the suttas, and even among those who espouse taking the 'plain meaning' of the suttas as they stand there are different interpretations of the same passage ;-)). The commentaries make the picture a lot clearer. > Kel: Yes, you're right on that I do evaluate what is being taught >with my background. ... So it becomes apparent what meshes with your >personality and what doesn't. I would say the courage would be to >practice in a way that works for you regardless of what is >convential wisdom. Ultimately I think that's the only reference we >have to go by. Once we have pretty good understanding, only thing >is to continously practice. > > I think the often quoted passage from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta is to the effect that one should be an island to oneself, with the dhamma as one's refuge. I am not so sure about a 'what works for you' approach. Could there be a danger of self-delusion creeping in? Do we ever get beyond the need for reference to the teachings? >>J: Generally speaking, did the Buddha advise his >>listeners in terms of special practice in a quiet place >> >> > Kel: Howard answer yes to this. I would also say even >mahasatipatthana sutta starts with that advice. > > If you are referring to the passage on mindfulness of breathing, I think we need to consider who it is directed to or who it describes (depending on whether you see the passage as being exhortational or descriptive in nature). This is always an important consideration in 'reading' (I dare not say 'interpreting' ;-)) a sutta, as you observe below. > Kel: He also explained it from different angles for different >audience. But there's always underlying message of applying it >after understanding it. So I would think it depends on the >particular person and what deficiency Buddha was trying to fix. > > Yes, I agree with this. > Kel: ... I think anicca and >anatta concepts are very deep because if we truly understood it, we >would act accordingly to that wisdom. To me if I can't apply it >fully then I only understand the model but still lacking true >understanding. Again only cintamaya-panna and not fully mature >bhavanamaya-panna. > Yes, this is how I see it for myself, too. >Also I think it's curious why Sotapannas are >still immersed in sensual pleasures if they truly understand >anicca/anatta if you go by some people's definitions of what >understanding those concepts mean. > > Well yes, I think we have all wondered this at one time or another, and perhaps still do at times (now being discussed in another thread). To my mind, the difficulty we have reconciling this kind of apparent anomaly indicates that our view of the different dhammas involved (in this case, wrong view and attachment to sensual pleasure) is likely to be not fully in accord with the reality of these dhammas, and that would in turn indicate lack of developed insight. > Kel: I know if I can live the rest of my life in a retreat >setting then it'll have far more kusala moments. I believe the >apparent achievements are some degree of sati/panna but they are not >fully mature yet. If they were then that would make the person an >ariya. Repeated experience of those sati/panna is what will lead to >enlightenment. The faster (frequency) we have those experiences, >earlier we'll achieve the goal. > > Well the idea that genuine achievements of sati/panna gained in one situation can be lost by moving to live in another situation (despite maintaining one's interest in the teachings) does not sound right to me. It seems to suggest that situational factors are more 'powerful' than accumulated sati/panna. To my reading, one of the key messages of the Satipatthana Sutta is how there is no constraint as to the circumstances in which sati may be developed. > It's not said in the texts explicitly about life on a retreat >versus a real life. ... In some sense more viriya is required >for maintaining a lower level sati in everyday life. I definitely >think it benefits me here and now but will pay even more dividends >in a retreat since the mind is now more inclined to sati. > > In the meantime, however, none of us are in a retreat, so there is no point in thinking 'if only' or 'when I eventually ...'. I know that's not what you're not saying, but let's face it if we really think we'd be better off being somewhere else or doing something else then such thoughts are going to keep arising and distracting us from the task at hand, the development of insight in our present circumstances/situation. On the other hand, the less we see our present situation as a handicap, the better chance we have of actually applying what we have heard, reflected on and properly understood. Thanks again for the comments. Jon 41814 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/6/05 1:21:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Howard > > Hi Howard > > Amazing. I see it exactly the same way but draw a very different > conclusion. > I see all the "bits" that go together to make a concept to be actual states. > > I don't think of a concept (or anything for that matter) as "separate > states." > > For example, there is no such thing as a "separate state" of consciousness. > > Therefore, its a non-reality according to that style of analysis. But since > I > don't accept that style of analysis, its a non-issue to me. > > This lack of separateness is even true of each of the Four Great Elements. > Each of these elements are dependent on the relative configuration of the > other > three. So how could any "one of them" be a single phenomena? Its not > possible IMO. > > I see where you're coming from, and I agree where you're coming from, I just > > don't agree where you're going to. ;-) > > TG ======================= Well, I think this has been wonderful progress in communication between us! Just one more thing for me to add on that perhaps will not only make my position a bit clearer, but may even make our respective positions seem closer: While I speak of *single* phenomena, I mean only that they are distinguishable (a principle with which, if you consider, say, the examples of hardness, and warmth, you will likely agree), and not, themselves, conglomerates, but not that they are separate or independent atomic entities. I do not believe in self-existent, independent existents at any level whatsoever. I see a kind of "unreality" at every level of investigation: not only at the concept level (which, in way, is the easiest level at which to see it), but also at the paramatthic level. I do suspect there is a reality - a truly single, yet dynamic reality, different in kind from everything we normally (think we) see, which is the nibbana element, the direct and true, non-dual "seeing" of which is magga leading to the liberation of phala. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41815 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG (and Jon) - In a message dated 2/6/05 1:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > A "imagined object" is a thought and the thought is the actual object. > Where > is this idea coming from that a "thought" is supposed to be something other > than the thought??? That's the object...the thought. And sure, the thought > is > a conglomeration of conditions...just as all conditions are. -------------------------------------------- Howard: No, there is no imagined object at all. That is just a manner of speaking. There is no imagined object - there is the imagining that there is an object. (Do you see the difference?) I agree that there are thoughts - elementary aspects of a thought process. What we take to be thoughts are, indeed, conglomerations of conditions, and those conditions, rarely consciously registered, are thoughts (such as mental pictures, fleeting recalled sounds and touchings etc). ----------------------------------------- > > A recalled sound is not the sound, but it is the thought about the sound. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with that! The sound was rupa, and the recalled sound, a remembering, is nama. (One caveat: Often what we consider to be either the rupa of "a sound" or the nama of "a recalled sound" is not a single phenomenon at all, but a whole sequence of phenomena. We - or, better, I - do not have the training in mindfulness adequate to seeing at the "microscopic" level.) ----------------------------------------- > > The thought about the sound does not reproduce the sound, its not meant > to...it > remembers the sound through thinking. The thought, or thinking, is the > object > and it is as "real" as any other state that arises due to conditions. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No problem, TG. Nama is as real (or unreal) as rupa. ---------------------------------------- > > Not to worry, I'm sure I'll get tired of this soon enough. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: That would be a shame, as we are just really connecting on this business. ----------------------------------------- > > TG > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41816 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/6/05 3:42:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Just to clarify, when I asked if we were missing something I did not of > course mean, 'Why aren't we becoming enlightened like they did?', but > 'Why don't we see the listening to and consideration of those things (at > (b) above) as sufficient to lead to the development of insight?'. In > other words, why do we think insight cannot be developed without truing > to practice in the way given at (a)? There is no suggestion in the > texts of intensive, secluded 'practice' as being recommended for those > of less-developed insight -- or do you see this kind of message? > ================== Yes, I do. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41817 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 6:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta, Present Moment and Goal / Kel & Ken H Hi Mike - Thank you for the reply. > Mike: > Siila can't be perfected by non-entities (selves etc.)--only by the path. > Whenever 'I' think 'I' can develop the path, already perversion rules. > That's how it seems to me, anyway... > This is a "Chicken and Egg" puzzle. Whether there is the thinking that 'I am developing the Path' or 'I must do this or that', there still are sila, samadhi and panna to be developed. The necessary work must be done (the Noble Eightfold Path). Otherwise, there will be no change and the samsara will never end. Now, if the necessary development is carried out correctly, the personality view ('mine, me, my self') should become weaker and not so dominating as it used to be. Then, and only then, the "perversion" will no longer be the big ruler. That's how I see it. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > Tep: These Merchants must be the very rare kind of trade people > > (whose main concern is not money, money, and money) because the qualification "perfected sila" couldn't be achieved by just listening to the Great Sage: they had to earnestly train themselves for some time. > > No trade people, no one there at all--just designations of aggregates, just like you and me. > > And on top of the perfected sila foundation, they must have to develop the seven enlightenment factors and see through the Four Noble Truths! 41818 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >>Jon: >>Well I too am speaking of the presently experienced object, >>specifically, when that is a rupa appearing through one of the 5 >>sense-doors, and I am speaking of that object only (so let's have no >>more talk of 'something underlying the experienced object' or >>an 'alleged inexperienced object' ;-)). >> >>My question is, on what basis do you assert that the presently >>experienced sense-door object arises no earlier than the moment at >>which it is experienced by the sense-door consciousness? >> >> >--------------------------------- >Howard: > Jon, you just agreed that we are talking about what is experienced. > Not quite (although that might be what you'd like me to have agreed ;-)). I agreed that we are talking about the presently experienced object, specifically a rupa presently being experienced by a moment of 5 sense-door consciousness. There is a distinction, as I think you can now see. > Something experienced does not exist >when it is not experienced, because what is not experienced is NOT what is >experienced. > That is so according to your definition of 'what is experienced'. But that has not been the subject of our discussion to date which, to remind ourselves, was your statement that: "Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object." Please consider the following: 1/ All dhammas, including a moment of 5 sense-door consciousness (citta) and its object (a rupa), arise and fall away. 2/ Between the arising and the falling away there is momentary subsistence. 3/ Since the arising of a rupa is conditioned by factors other than the citta of which it is the object (as you have stated), there is nothing that 'ties' the period of subsistence of the rupa to that of the citta. 4/ If a rupa subsists for longer than a citta, then the span of subsistence of the rupa as object will exceed the span of subsistence of the citta by which it is experienced, that is to say, it will either arise before or fall away after the experiencing citta (or both). Accordingly, I am still wondering on what basis you make the assertion that paramattha dhammas (includes rupas) are created at the moment of consciousness of which they are the object. Jon 41819 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon - We are *not* discussing the same things. You accept the notion of rupas as phenomena that are what they are in and of themselves, and that cittas arise which somehow observe them. Whether there are such things I don't know, and don't believe we *can* know. (I tend to dismiss, pragmatically, what is in principle unverifiable.) On the other hand, what *I* have been talking about are private, internal experiences. The felt hardness that I experience is a physical experience, and it is *that* which I say arises with the knowing of it, and ceases when that knowing ceases. The hardness *you* (and Abhidhamma) speak of is an alleged external thing that is the basis for up to 16 or 17 (I've seen both numbers) hardness-experiencing cittas. You're talking about apples, Jon, and I'm talking about oranges. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/6/05 9:48:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >>Jon: > >>Well I too am speaking of the presently experienced object, > >>specifically, when that is a rupa appearing through one of the 5 > >>sense-doors, and I am speaking of that object only (so let's have no > >>more talk of 'something underlying the experienced object' or > >>an 'alleged inexperienced object' ;-)). > >> > >>My question is, on what basis do you assert that the presently > >>experienced sense-door object arises no earlier than the moment at > >>which it is experienced by the sense-door consciousness? > >> > >> > >--------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Jon, you just agreed that we are talking about what is experienced. > > > > Not quite (although that might be what you'd like me to have agreed > ;-)). I agreed that we are talking about the presently experienced > object, specifically a rupa presently being experienced by a moment of 5 > sense-door consciousness. There is a distinction, as I think you can > now see. > > >Something experienced does not exist > >when it is not experienced, because what is not experienced is NOT what is > >experienced. > > > > That is so according to your definition of 'what is experienced'. But > that has not been the subject of our discussion to date which, to remind > ourselves, was your statement that: > "Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they > are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' > outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object." > > Please consider the following: > > 1/ All dhammas, including a moment of 5 sense-door consciousness > (citta) and its object (a rupa), arise and fall away. > > 2/ Between the arising and the falling away there is momentary subsistence. > > 3/ Since the arising of a rupa is conditioned by factors other than the > citta of which it is the object (as you have stated), there is nothing > that 'ties' the period of subsistence of the rupa to that of the citta. > > 4/ If a rupa subsists for longer than a citta, then the span of > subsistence of the rupa as object will exceed the span of subsistence of > the citta by which it is experienced, that is to say, it will either > arise before or fall away after the experiencing citta (or both). > > Accordingly, I am still wondering on what basis you make the assertion > that paramattha dhammas (includes rupas) are created at the moment of > consciousness of which they are the object. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 117 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (a) Dear Azita, It will not be long before we come to jivitindriya in the Vis. and tiika, and then a few more details will follow. Nina. op 06-02-2005 09:19 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I can understand the jivitindriya that sustains the life > of 'our' rupa but find it hard to g 41821 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Predominant roots? the Guide, Netti. Hi Phil, Connie, Azita, Thanks for the input. I think that it is difficult to say, even though some predomenant traits appear in one life, but there are many liuves. We have all latent tendencies and when there are conditions they cause the arising of all sorts of akusala. People like to know because of choosing meditation subjects, or they wonder what application of mindfulness will help them. As to the last: this depends on sati. Understanding of nama and rupa has to be developed. One moment there may be awareness of rupa, at another moment of feeling, etc. We never can tell. An old commentarial work, the Netti or Guide (p. 247) mentions nineteen types of persons. I repeat what I formerly wrote and quoted. In the following the term steadied is used, a translation of ti.tha, placed. Second, I'd like to ask you all what you know about or think of this > teaching that different roots are more dominant in some people than > others. Does it appear often in the suttanta and commentaries? > I think it's very interesting. 41822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca as characteristic Hello Phil and Joop, Sarah referred formerly to Dispeller of Delusion (p. 59) about the three characteristics. He taught the characteristic of anatta by means of both the impermanent and suffering. It is explained that impermanence and dukkha are more obvious. op 04-02-2005 00:59 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > The khandas and the six > sense bases are all about anatta. Abhidhamma is all about anatta, > isn't it? What is the study of cetasikas, for example, except to > develop our understanding that there is no self. And anatta is so > subtle and difficult to penetrate that different approaches, > different classifications are all ways at helping. > > Isn't impermanence perhaps easier to > understand to begin with, thus it comes first in those suttas? 41823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? Howard. Hi Howard, op 04-02-2005 22:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> It is said of an *object* >> experienced by citta that it is pleasant (desirable) or unpleasant >> (undesirable), not neutral, even though it may seem so at times. > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > With regard to body sense, I understand that. But are not all visual > objects neutral in feel, with subsequent mind-door objects possibly having > non-neutral feel? > ----------------------------------- N: Also when just seeing now, we cannot> >> find out. but why should we? >> > --------------------------------- > Howard: > Here I am not following you. > ================= N: I am glad you ask. Seeing just sees, it does not know whether visible object is desirable or not, but it is either desirable or undesirable, because of conditions that are not in our power. We should remember that kusala kamma or akusala kamma conditions the seeing, thus moments of seeing cannot be the same. There are in the same eye-door process kusala cittas or akusala cittas with like or dislike, and these arise because of what has been accumulated. Later on in a mind-door process we think or define the object and may know whether it was pleasant or unpleasant. But many moments of seeing just pass and it is not known whether visible object was desirable or undesirable. Like sitting in front of the computer now. The same with hearing. We do not pay attention to words, but the sound of the voice of others may be produced by kusala citta or akusala citta, who knows? What I wanted to say is that it is not beneficial to think much about the object being desirable or undesirable. Dhammas arise and pass away too fast. If sati arises it can be aware of visible object as a kind of rupa. That is more beneficial than thinking of an object as pleasant or unpleasant. Howard wrote: N: Yes, but for communication we can use the word citta and try to keep it very, very low key, keep everything, objects included, low key. But easier said than done. It helps to remember that many conditions are concurring for the arising of this impersonal element that is citta, and then later on pañña, when it is more developed, can realize it as only a conditioned nama. The word *only* is important here. Nina. 41824 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/6/05 10:45:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > N: I am glad you ask. Seeing just sees, it does not know whether visible > object is desirable or not, but it is either desirable or undesirable, > because of conditions that are not in our power. We should remember that > kusala kamma or akusala kamma conditions the seeing, thus moments of seeing > cannot be the same. There are in the same eye-door process kusala cittas or > akusala cittas with like or dislike, and these arise because of what has > been accumulated. Later on in a mind-door process we think or define the > object and may know whether it was pleasant or unpleasant. But many moments > of seeing just pass and it is not known whether visible object was desirable > or undesirable. Like sitting in front of the computer now. The same with > hearing. We do not pay attention to words, but the sound of the voice of > others may be produced by kusala citta or akusala citta, who knows? > What I wanted to say is that it is not beneficial to think much about the > object being desirable or undesirable. Dhammas arise and pass away too fast. > If sati arises it can be aware of visible object as a kind of rupa. That is > more beneficial than thinking of an object as pleasant or unpleasant. > > ========================= I understand you to be saying that an object of 5-sensory consciousness may be desirable or undesirable in the sense that when it becomes object of mind-door consciousness it will be felt as pleasant or unpleasant, respectively. However, it was still my understanding that sights in particular, as opposed to body-door sensations, are always neither desirable nor undesirable. In this regard, I quote from your Vedana section of Cetasikas: "The feeling which accompanies kaya-vinnana is either pleasant feeling or painful feeling, it cannot be indifferent feeling. In the case of the other panca-vinnanas (the five pairs of sense-cognitions, seeing, hearing, etc). One of each pair is kusala vipaka and one akusala vipaka. which are seeing, hearing smelling and tasting, the accompanying feeling is always indifferent feeling, no matter whether the vipakacitta which experiences the object is kusaIa vipakacitta or akusala vipakacitta." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41825 From: Larry Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Howard quoted by Jon: "Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object." Hi Howard, Consider this scenario: I pinch my finger and dislike arises. When dislike arises the object of the consciousness that accompanies dislike is pinch, not dislike. Paramattha dhammas are not necessarily objects of consciousness. Larry 41826 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/6/05 11:53:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Consider this scenario: I pinch my finger and dislike arises. When > dislike arises the object of the consciousness that accompanies > dislike is pinch, not dislike. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, I actually do not agree with that. I believe that what is experienced is dislike at that moment, but such moments are interspersed with recollections of what led to that dislike and moments of thinking that associate the two. ------------------------------------ Paramattha dhammas are not necessarily > > objects of consciousness. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that is said by some. ----------------------------------- > > Larry > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41827 From: Larry Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 11:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 2/6/05 11:53:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Consider this scenario: I pinch my finger and dislike arises. When > > dislike arises the object of the consciousness that accompanies > > dislike is pinch, not dislike. > > > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I actually do not agree with that. I believe that what is > experienced is dislike at that moment, but such moments are interspersed with > recollections of what led to that dislike and moments of thinking that associate the > two. > ------------------------------------ > Paramattha dhammas are not necessarily > > > objects of consciousness. > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, that is said by some. > ----------------------------------- > > > > > Larry > > > ===================== > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard, I agree, but what is experienced isn't an object of consciousness, at least in this case. Larry 41828 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: for James - SammaSankappa and Panna Hi Mike and RobertK - Your reply in message #41790 was highly economical in words. But the whole message (most of which was RobertK's) took me a while longer to read. Your main comments are : 1. The imperturbable states (that are conditioned by jhaana) are also considered (by the Dispeller) in addition to the akusala and kusala dhammas. That is, in RobK's words, "the mudane jhanas - > although classified as samma samadhi are also classified as leading > to accumulation (of rebirth)". 2. RobertK's conjecture that "those monks who had mastery of jhana" could "immeditely after exiting jhana, ...use jhana as a base for development of the eightfold path leading out of samsara" is agreed upon by Mike. But I am not sure about this conjecture. Can RobertK cite a few (out of the "several") suttas he has read to confirm it ? BTW, are the eightfold factors necessary and sufficient for Arahatship? 3. RobertK wrote : > According to the texts these > most developed disciples can no longer exist. Mike did not comment on it. But I don't have any idea what Rob meant. 4. Mike wrote : Sammaasankappa (absent of course from all but the first jhaana) together WITH pa~n~naa constitute the wisdom section of the path-- pa~n~naa cannot discern the tilakkhaa.na alone. Mike, do you mean that samma-sankappa is the same as vitakka (that's why the comment "absent of course from all but the first jhaana")? Why is it so? Why panna alone "cannot discern the 3 characteristics, Mike? Isn't "panna" here the same as right understanding (samma-ditthi, according to Nina)? I can't help get confused by inconsistent uses of the teminologies (although Nina warned me before!). Thank you both RobertK and Mike for your posts. Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Robert and Tep, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "rjkjp1" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:29 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: for James > > > I am not sure if the comments by Venerable Bodhi should be > > considered so highly in this case. (snipped) > > I agree with this exception. Sammaasankappa (absent of course from all but > the first jhaana) together WITH pa~n~naa constitute the wisdom section of > the path--pa~n~naa cannot discern the tilakkhaa.na alone. > > mike > > 41829 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self view, conceit, sense of self etc. In a message dated 2/6/2005 12:52:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: I've seen your subsequent exchanges with Howard. I think it may help if you could give some specific examples. 'Sense of self' could mean a number of things, and likewise conceit as used conventionally. Self view and conceit have very specific meanings in the teachings. But well worth pursuing. Jon Hi Jon When I refer to the "sense-of-self," I merely mean the way each of us feels ourselves to be a "me." This might be closest to being compared with conceit. Conceit in English generally has a negative connotation of being overly selfish, arrogant, or "self satisfied." I think of sense-of-self as more palinly stated IMO. Its nothing elaborate. Its just the plain feeling or sense of "I am." This might also be considered an "intuitive sense" albeit delusional. TG 41830 From: nina Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Pilgrimage India, Ch 5, a. Pilgrimage India, 5a. Chapter 5. Association with Wise Friends We read in the ³Gradual Sayings² , Book of the Fours, Ch XXV, § 6, Growth in wisdom, that the Buddha said: Monks, these four states conduce to growth in wisdom. What four? Association with a good man, hearing the true Dhamma, right attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Association with a good friend in Dhamma is one of the conditions for enlightenment. A good friend in Dhamma is a person who understands Dhamma correctly and can explain it. It is very fortunate that Acharn Sujin is our good friend in Dhamma who reminds us all the time of the meaning of anattå. We continue to take all dhammas for ³self² if right understanding of them is not developed. When kusala citta arises we are likely to take this for ³my kusala² or we may think of ourselves as being a good person, and that is conceit. When akusala citta arises we may have aversion about it or be ashamed about it, and we fail to see it as merely an impersonal element that arises because of its own conditions. There can be mindfulness and understanding of whatever dhamma appears without any selection of the object of awareness. One of my friends, Khun Purani, told me that her father, after the passing away of her mother, was inconsolable and desperate. Khun Purani told me how much Khun Sujin and other friends had supported him during the days preceding the cremation of her mother. Acharn Sujin spoke about the Dhamma right in front of the coffin. Formerly Khun Purani¹s father did not have much interest in the Buddha¹s teachings, but the support of the good friends in Dhamma helped him to have more confidence in the teachings. Khun Purani could persuade him to join our pilgrimage and day by day we could see how he changed. It was like a miracle. The Dhamma can change a person¹s life. **** Nina. 41831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the Five Indriyas, what is sati, no 1. Dear Tep, Thank you for your kind words. op 04-02-2005 02:00 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: (snipped).. But the > second test as given above is more difficult : sati has to > arise "unexpectantly" through "listening and considering". In other > words, "sati is not thinking about sati; sati is direct awareness". N: Yes, I understand what you mean. It is hard to really understand the anattaness of sati, for all of us. Trying with lobha to have sati can creep in without us knowing it. T: Let's get back to the walking example again. Many times when we > walk we may not be mindful of the walking -- i.e. a sati with the walking > (leg movements) as its object does not arise. N: When we think of legs or walking, we think of a whole of different impressions. Very natural, but it is useful to realize that this is different from just being aware for a moment of a characteristic such as hardness or pressure, or seeing that also occurs while walking. Objects arise all the time, but sati does not often arise. T:Now, suppose that > suddenly while walking with no sati, we realize that we should be > mindful of the walking. N: Walking is not a characteristic of reality. That is why I have a question mark as to walking meditation. It depends on what a person means by this. The satipatthana sutta and Co (Soma Thera) clarify this. Indeed the Vis. gives more details and I am glad you mention this. I shall go into this afterwards. T: That realization is a sati (recollection), but it is > not the kind of sati we would want in walking meditation. N: Sati arises with kusala citta and there are many kinds and levels. It depends on conditions what level of sati arises, but anyway, sati arises with all types of kusala citta. T: To condition the right kind of sati to arise, I would take my awareness > from any outside preoccupations (wandering thoughts) and 'place' a > focused attention on the walking. N: I see a danger here. When one thinks in terms of should not or should (no wandering thoughts, but should be mindful of this or that) is here not a danger of the idea of self directing? I admit that this can arise at any time, also when not walking, but studying texts, etc. . You said that you have thick layers of wrong view, but surely, all who are not ariyans have wrong view. There is the latent tendency of wrong view accumulated. I heard on my MP3 some good reminders, but they may not appeal to everybody. Your comments are always welcome. In fact, they would interest me. I heard you say, in another post, everything is dhamma and I thought of Kh Sujin. She says this often to remind us. T: Sometimes, by "comprehending" the rupa (materiality) during walking as stated in the Visuddhimagga is useful for continuously sustaining sati and sampajanna on the leg movements. N: I think again of the danger as explained above. T: But it seems to me that there is a large degree of thinking involved in the Ven. Buddhaghosa's method. N: This seems so at first sight, but let us look at the context. Is it a method, or does he have another intention? It may be different from what we think. I shall continue later on, because I want to look at the whole Ch XX and I need more time for that. I also have some urgent work on the Visuddhimagga, etc. Besides, family matters, my father is ill. Nina. 41832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 0:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? Howard. Hi Howard, op 06-02-2005 17:13 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I understand you to be saying that an object of 5-sensory > consciousness may be desirable or undesirable in the sense that when it > becomes object of > mind-door consciousness it will be felt as pleasant or unpleasant, > respectively. N: No, we have to distinguish: the object that is desirable or undesirable, and citta which experiences it with different feelings about it. A pleasant sense object may be experienced with akusala javana cittas accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Possible. H: However, it was still my understanding that sights in > particular, as > opposed to body-door sensations, are always neither desirable nor undesirable. N: No. H: In > this regard, I quote from your Vedana section of Cetasikas: "The feeling which > accompanies kaya-vinnana is either pleasant feeling or painful feeling, it > cannot be indifferent feeling. In the case of the other panca-vinnanas (the > five > pairs of sense-cognitions, seeing, hearing, etc). One of each pair is kusala > vipaka and one akusala vipaka. which are seeing, hearing smelling and tasting, > the accompanying feeling is always indifferent feeling, no matter whether the > vipakacitta which experiences the object is kusaIa vipakacitta or akusala > vipakacitta." N: Yes, this is so. Remember the similes of the hammer and the layers of cotton. Some reviewing of Vis. and tiika: The Vis. (XIV, 41) states about the bodysense: The great Elements are the support of the bodysense. The Expositor (II, p. 349) explains that in the case of the eye-door, ear-door, nose-door and tongue-door, derived ruupa strikes on derived ruupa. Whenever we touch things or walk, elements are impinging on elements, and the body-consciousness that is vipaakacitta is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling or unpleasant bodily feeling. When we touch something we may believe that the bodily feeling is indifferent, but this is not so. Bodily feeling is merely result and it is very ephemeral, only lasting for one moment. Bodily pleasant feeling has nothing to do with happy feeling accompanying citta rooted in attachment, which is akusala and arises because of different conditions. It may arise very shortly after the body-consciousness and then one may confuse the two kinds of feeling, one being vipaaka and one being akusala. When the javana-cittas in a process are akusala, there are seven of the same type succeeding one another, accompanied by the same type of feeling. Nina. 41833 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 1:05pm Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, > Fair enough. But how about the commentaries -- or do you see them as > part of this problem? The fact is, there's a lot that's left unsaid in > the suttas, and even among those who espouse taking the 'plain meaning' > of the suttas as they stand there are different interpretations of the > same passage ;-)). The commentaries make the picture a lot clearer. kel: I think commentaries are essential for our understanding and briding the divide from that era to modern world. I don't even know if I can separate my knowledge into original and commentary since it's so intertwined. It's also clear to me the same process is what will lead to end of sasana however. Intepretation upon one another result in practices that have totally lost the original intent. > I think the often quoted passage from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta is to > the effect that one should be an island to oneself, with the dhamma as > one's refuge. I am not so sure about a 'what works for you' approach. > Could there be a danger of self-delusion creeping in? Do we ever get > beyond the need for reference to the teachings? Kel: There is definitely a grave danger! The path is full of potholes and hopefully we don't walk off a cliff. One has to be constantly re-examine oneself. Part of learning to be an objective observer is we can be true to ourselves without distortions of how we want to be. Then there's acceptance of who we are and what we are. Further it becomes clear what we need to do. Atta ditthi > >kel: Also I think it's curious why Sotapannas are > >still immersed in sensual pleasures if they truly understand >J: anomaly indicates that our view of the different dhammas involved (in > this case, wrong view and attachment to sensual pleasure) is likely to > be not fully in accord with the reality of these dhammas, and that would > in turn indicate lack of developed insight. kel: I think it's pretty clear why this is so for Sotapannas. It has to do with understanding of dukkha. I guess it's topic for another thread :) > J: Well the idea that genuine achievements of sati/panna gained in one > situation can be lost by moving to live in another situation (despite > maintaining one's interest in the teachings) does not sound right to > me. It seems to suggest that situational factors are more 'powerful' > than accumulated sati/panna. To my reading, one of the key messages of > the Satipatthana Sutta is how there is no constraint as to the > circumstances in which sati may be developed. Kel: I think you mean genuine to be lasting and I define it for only an ariya. Maybe a simile with the backyard and weeds will show my position better. There's a certain amount of work I can do. So I can pull weeds at some rate. Rain, fertilization and number of seeds make weeds sprout out faster than I can pull them. So while I can keep clear a certain percentage of my backyard, it still has many weeds. Then let's say it's summer with no rain and I pour pesticides over it. Then not only can I pull the weeds out but I can dig further into the soil to get the seeds for the same amount of work. Once I get rid of the seeds, even if it rains again there's less for me to pull out. So eventually I can hope to win by uprooting all the seeds from the backyard. Just to be obvious, in everyday life I'm just barely keeping up with pulling the weeds. In a retreat, I get respite from the rain and maybe even help with pesticide. Then when I emerge again, even if my capabilities are the same, my mind is cleaner. But unless all the seeds are gone, they will multiply once more and eventually win over even with my constant work. Now if the amount of work is already more than the rate weeds grow then I don't need any help. - kel 41834 From: connie Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 3:26pm Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Hi, Azita, [...] Azita: you make me smile, Connie. I like your candidness - if that's really a word!! At least, this is where we are at the present point in samsara, so lets not waste it this time, who knows when we next get the opportunity. Even knowing this, I sometimes choose to do something else rather than picking up a dhamma book and reading. Or do I really choose? given there is no choice, maybe its accumulations/tendencies, even temperament that goes to the movies instead of dhamma reading? Connie, smiling back: Yes, outside of the old and new accumulations in the cittas, and the bodily rupas to get them there, (which is the blind and which the cripple?) what else could ever go to the movies or anything else "I" take credit for? Blast those temperamental little over-indulgent 'selves' running around ignoring the "Clear and Present Danger" (a movie title, I think) & sucking up all the intoxicants they can through the nose, eyes, ears, etc.! Typical junkie behaviour. Buddha told us what a vicious circle it is, but 'who cares?' as long as we're 'high on life' - even when it's a 'bad trip' and we pretend there's no perverse satisfaction in rolling around in our misery. The accumulations or yes, temperament is always right there. Even down to wow! you got sati? Hook me up. Or young Connie thinking 'this Buddhist stuff and all these foreign words are completely beyond me and if I have to follow that 5th precept, I'll never have any friends or fun. Maybe when I'm older.' Good grief, I even had some little fantasy about guys in Tibetan robes showing up to teach me and here they have and I can't stand it but prefer to hang out on the edges of this dsgroup (where 'people', as I imagine these visible objects to be, still talk over my head). I snarf up all the little goodies I can and laugh when it seems I've been here before. There's something on the mp3's about not getting in over our heads like that... just more concepts and not real understanding, but we've got to start somewhere and here I am, sometimes grateful and sometimes hateful. Some other friends use a phrase about 'reading the sutra with our lives'. To me, that says the dhammas are always right there to be known, but how are my reading skills? Not that I can't get anything out of just the pictures, but yes, it helps to know (but always with that little distrust in 'myself'), even in theory, just what sati can be aware of or even that sati doesn't arise with akusala. At least, "its only ever after the fact that I think 'o that was such and such'" we can know that much and that accumulates, too, and like Nina said, there are many lives. The cittas don't misplace or lose anything. Who knows what's next? Ha... most of the time we're lucky to know what just was! Or think we do anyway. It's not just the Pali, but even the English for realities, what are my preconceived ideas to do with anything Buddha explained so carefully? Who'dda thunk they didn't even know the difference between seeing and seen? Anyway, just rambling, connie 41835 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Request for Htoo (Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 117 jivitindriya Hello Htoo, and all Htoo, yesterday as I was reading through the binder in which I've printed out "Cetasikas" I came across your Dhamma Thread on jivitindriya. I thought it was very interesting and would be a good thing for us to look at along with Nina's but now I can't find the thread. Would you mind reposting it? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil p.s Sorry for not retyping it myself but there are many threads to catch up on! 41836 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 5:08pm Subject: quiz Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 116 - Concentration/ekaggataa (l) Hi Nina and all Let's see if I can remember what I read yesterday. > i Are ekaggat?Eand samådhi the same cetasika? Yes. Different terms for the same thing. > ii Can there be samådhi with akusala citta? Yes, even when we feel "distracted" there is momentary concentration on the object. It is wrong concentration, but there is concentration with every citta. I'd add that since we are almost always distracted, concentration is almost always wrong concentration. > iii What is the difference between samm?Esamådhi in samatha > and samm?Esamådhi in vipassan?E Samma samadhi in samatha is for tranquility. If I recall correctly, there is the suppresion of defilements. Samma samadhi in vipassana would involve right concentration on whichever reality was arising? Panna knows nama from rupa, for example. There was a very interesting sutta from "Graded Sayings" in which four different ways of developing samadhi are given, only the first of which is through jhanas. Can I remember the other three? The second is something to do with the perception of light, i guess having light as meditation subject. The third sounded like my beginner's understanding of what vipassana is, being aware of realities arising. The fourth...I can't remember. This sutta was very encouraging for me because seeking jhanas is not an option for me at this time and I don't see it becoming an option unless there are dramatic changes in my living conditions. But the Buddha taught other ways to develop samadhi, other ways to develop the path factor of right concentration. > iv If we try to concentrate on sound is that the way to know > sound as it is? No, then there would be clinging to results. It would all be thinking about concentrating. Surely that must go on a lot for beginners like myself, and maybe not just for beginners. Nina, thanks in advance for any (brief!) feedback. I am behind in responding to several of your previous feedbacks but will be printing them out and rereading them when I am offline for awhile after our upcoming move. And I join Azita in thanking Sarah for posting this study corner. Metta, Phil 41837 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 5:42pm Subject: The Arising of Right View Hi all - Right view(alternatively, Right understanding) is samma-ditthi; it is one of the most discussed topics here at DSG. The following is a post at SariputtaDhamma, a Yahoo! discussion group, on the arising of Right view. I think it might benefit us as well. From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:45 pm Subject: Arising of Right View Dear Dhamma Friends, Earlier today I re-read MN 43, Mahavedalla Sutta by Arahant Sariputta Thera and was delighted again like the other times I had read it in the past. So I thought , "Maybe I should share this with my friends at the SariputtaDhamma". Here it is: "Friend, how many ways are there for the arising of right view? "Friend, there are two ways for the arising of right view. Either hearing it from an outside source or internally reflecting the root causes. In these two ways right view arises. "Friend, in how many ways does there come about, the release of mind with right view and the results of the release of mind, the release through wisdom with right view and the results of the release through wisdom? "Friend, the release of mind with right view and its results and the release through wisdom with right view and its results, come about in five ways. Friend, that right view comes with virtues, learning, discussion, appeasement and wisdom. In these five ways there comes about, the release of mind through right view and its results, and the release of mind through wisdom and its results. [endquote] So you see that two of the five ways are "learning" and "discussion" -- exactly, the activities we have been doing together here. Warmest regards, Tep =========== 41838 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Hi Connie, Azita, Joop and all > I wonder what good it does to tell myself I'm predominantly greedy or > hateful or any of the 6 (more or less, depending on who you read) basic > natures. I was thinking about this question yesterday. First of all, I found that the teaching I had gotten this idea from is called "The Exposition of Prevalence (Ussada-Kittana) from the Atthasalini. For example, "In some beings, greed is prevalent, in others hatred or delusion; and again in others, non-greed, non-hatred or non-delusion is prevalent. What is it that governs this prevalence? It is the root-cause in the previous life that governs the prevalence of roots in the present life...in one person, at the moment of (rebirth-producing) kamma-accumulation, greed is strong and non-greed is weak, non-hatred and non-delusion are strong and hatred and delusion are weak; then his weak non-greed is unable to prevail over his greed, but non-hatred and non-delusion being storng, can prevail over his hatred and delusion. Hence when a being is born through rebirth-linking caused by that kamma, he will be greedy, good- natured, not irascible, intelligent and having knowledge that can be linked to a lightning flash." Many other permutations of this sort of thing are given. > Basically, we're all here because of lobha mula citta. How do I > know from minute to minute what "I am" and why would I want to 'set it in > stone' or define/limit myself/possibilities? Not set in stong, but perhaps written in very thick sludge? I was thinking about people I know and whether there basic character has changed in a marked way since I've known them, without some dramatic force like alcholism, drug addiction or trauma intervening. I couldn't really think of anyone. I think of myself. Definitely greedy, definitely with addictive tendencies. If I make progress on one addicition, another one appears. That could be because it is not the object of addicition that is the point, but my root greediness. On the other hand, there seems to be a natural tendency towards friendliness/non-hate. I get weepy-eyed from affection for people in general sometimes. I sit on the train and get weepy-eyed thinking of all the people going to work, pushed and pulled by craving and fear. Combined with a greedy character, this kind of non-hating tendency makes me weepy and ineffectual. As for delusion and non-delusion, I can't say. What is the value of thinking of this sort of thing? If one takes it too seriously or forgets that it's based on subjective thinking without wisdom, it would be dangerous. If one seeks to practice in a certain way based on it, it would be dangerous. But if one reflects on it now and then without taking it too seriously and takes it as another reminder that everything is due to conditions, takes it as another confirmation of the truth of the Buddha's teaching, why not? It's kinda intereresting. >Or have some teacher tell me > since it seems I've mostly seen it in connection with which meditation > subjects are most appropriate for any given personality and there's > usually some advice there about how only a qualified teacher would be able > to tell you. Yes, since I'm just farting around on my own, I won't take it too seriously. >I don't think it matters to sati. Right. I can just imagine what Kh Sujin would say if I brought this topic up in a question! But you were asking about > references, I think. > > Vsm III 121: 10. As to suitability to temperament: here the exposition > should be understood according to what is suitable to the temperaments. > That is to say: firstly the 10 kinds of foulness and mindfulness occupied > with the body are 11 meditation subjects suitable for one of greedy > temperament. Well, this is interesting. I won't rush off right away and start meditating on foulness to deal with my greedy temperament, but this exchange of ours might condition a little bit more reflection on foulness. In "Removal of Distracting Thoughts" we learn that we reflect on foulness re living beings that we are attracted to and impermanence re things. SInce learning that, I do find it arising now and then, especially re the former. >The 4 divine abidings and 4 colour kasinas are 8 suitable > for one of hating temperament. Of course the temperaments are not so consistently exclusive. There are times when we are greedy, and times when we are hating. But there *is* a predominant tendency written in sludge, I would say, though not in stone. (snip - thanks for the long references - I will print them out.) > The Ven. Nanamoli's Vsm glossary gives "cariya, carita - temperament, > behaviour, exercise". I kind of like that 'exercise' bit... which ever > root or quality is most active at any given moment as opposed to 'the > inherent, fundamental flaw in my personality' or something. Yes. But again I think we might find that there is a tendency for certain roots to be more active at more moments than other roots. However, in > one of the preceding chapters, there is some discussion of the kind of > dwelling most suitable to each 'type' and that does make it sound like a > more or less in-born, die-hard trait. Also some examples of different > behaviours that indicate which type you are from how you hold a broom to > how you fall out at night. Right, I remember reading this. Flopping down in bed vs lying down with care or something like that. It was interesting. I'm a greedy flopper. In conclusion, an interesting teaching, and worth reflecting on now and then, but not with too much intensity. And as you said, it doesn't really matter when it comes to sati. Realities are the same - if and when I'm aware of them - whether I'm fundamentally a greedy slob in this conventional lifetime or not. Metta, Phil 41839 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Re: Predominant roots? Hi Azita and all Connie: > > natures. Basically, we're all here because of lobha mula citta. > How do I > > know from minute to minute what "I am" and why would I want to 'set > it in > > stone' or define/limit myself/possibilities? > > Azita: I kind of agree with you here, but don't you ever see traits > in yourself that you maybe have seen all your life? I know I have > and its what I would call a 'predominant root'. > i personally don't see it as 'setting it in stone' but there is > certainly traits that makes up 'me'. > To see them for what they really are - not me, not mine - is, I > think, part of Buddha's teaching on anatta. For example, this anger > I take to be mine, this generosity I take to be me or mine. So we're playing with fire if we pay too much attention to these traits that we can see in ourselves, because it could lead us to cultivate a strong self-image. If we were constantly experiencing radically different personality traits (as we do at times, of course, but not constantly) it would be so much easier to understand anatta, wouldn't it? Constistent tendencies help us to mentally write stories about ourselves, and clinging to these stories, these self-images is the cause of so much suffering. If I see myself as a basically non- hating person and then have one of my intensely hostile outburts, I could have a lot of suffering because of this discrepancy. I seem to have gotten by that. As I posted the other day, if we happen to shout at a loved one, or a stranger, it's not the end of the world. Just a confirmation of the Buddha's teaching and an opportunity to feel grateful to Him. I still find myself thinking about what Sarah posted the other day, about the fellow she lives with ! :) I felt really confident and calm about being able to see that if I say I'm a greedy, somewhat immoral person and Jon is more firmly rooted in Sati, it is in the end *not* about Phil and Jon. It is about nama and rupa, about kusala and akusala, coming and going in a fluid yet conditioned way through countless lifetimes. There are tendencies in this one lifetime, but in absolute terms they don't really matter. But the conventional thinking can also be helpful for now, because our insight, our panna is still so weak. The tricky thing is to be able to benefit from thinking in conventional terms without getting too caught up in it. More middle way. Metta, Phil 41840 From: Philip Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 6:16pm Subject: Re: Revulsion ? Hi TG, Htoo and Nina Thanks for your feedback on "revulsion." TG > Just a few comments. I believe insight needs to take the mind through a > phase that sees all conditions as tied up with suffering and death with great > clarity. Conditions with this perspective can only be seen as revolting. I was thinking afterwards about "samvega." That sense of urgency that comes when we see how foolishly we have been living. I wonder how samvega relates to the "experiences revulsion" (nibbindati) that appears so often in suttas? >This > type of revulsion is not the emotional type of revultion we normally think > of...it is it is an 'insight attribute' and an unattached spiritual state of mind. Yes, there are so many potentially misleading connotations when we read suttas in English. Thus the importance of trying to understand the Pali. Every little bit helps, in my opinion. I happened across this in Bhikhu Bodhi's commentarial notes to Rahulasamyutta: "Spk does not comment on nibbindati but the commentaries consistently identify the corresponding noun nibbida with strong insight knowledge" (Sorry if this is repeating what Nina wrote - I am going to re-check it now.) Metta, Phil 41841 From: Hugo Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Deliberate practice: should we "do" something or just "observe with wisdom"? I am not an expert just an Upasaka trying to follow The Buddha's teachings. I have seen a lot of E-mail threads, and I have presented the same questions to myself about "deliberate practice", questions like: Should I do "formal meditation"? Should I just "observe with wisdom"? Is there "free will"? Do I need to read the Suttas or the Abhidhamma? Should I follow the instructions given in the Suttas step-by-step and literally? I don't have any answers for them, all I have is some observations and even more questions, hopefully this will be enough to help find your and my own answers. Obs#1: We know the final goal. That is "don't cling to anything". And it really means anything, including the Path. If you still cling to something (no matter what it is) you haven't "get to" Nibbana. Obs#2: We already cling to a lot of "things" (I mean "things" in the more general sense, not only material things). Obs#3: We can't just say, "stop clinging" and be done with the task. This proves that we can't "get to" Nibbana just by the power of our will. Should we just sit and wait until Nibbana "gets to us"? mmmm...I don't think that is possible, even if some people say that all we need to do is "observe with wisdom", there is something we are doing! And if we are doing it, then it means we wanted to do it, just the fact of sitting there was an act of will. So, this proves that the will plays certain role in attaining Nibbana. If you have had children or play some kind of role in the education of little kids will be easier to understand the following. Should we tell a 3-year old to sit and "observe with wisdom" whenever he is throwing toys around, hitting his/her friends, throwing a tantrum because he attached to certain toy at the store and you didn't buy it? Let's take one of the above examples, hitting others. What should you do? Tell him to "not hit them" and explain him why, and then what? a) Tell him, when you are angry, just observe your anger with wisdom, it will pass away, if you hit your friend again, just keep observing until you stop hitting him or he lays unconscious on the ground, or there is too much blood on your shirt. b) Tell him, when you are angry, go and ask for help, or cross your arms embracing yourself, or smile, or sing, or kiss your friend (this works when the victim is younger and less violent than the aggressor, in other cases, think before recommending it) or better yet "don't do anything" (which in truth "doing anything" is really doing something, but you get the point). If we raise children just by telling them to "observe" and not "do" something, will the defilements diminish or grow? Will he continue hitting or will the hitting be stopped? If this works with the kids, does this work with adults? Adults behave like kids, adults attach to a different set of toys and entertainment, but they really behave the same. The problem with adults is that they think "I know better", so they think that what they do is fine. The mind works the same (for the average human being), no matter your age, if you think differently, just watch more carefully. So, if you have a chance, sit and observe with wisdom (or without it) a bunch of little kids (2-5 years old) and you will see how the human mind works, then go and compare to yourself, you will see what I am talking about. Now onto the questions: Why in many Suttas The Buddha uses verbs that encourage an action? Why in the Vinaya (monastic rules) the rules are mainly directed towards actions that should be or not performed? Why the Vinaya ask for celibacy for the Monks, why it doesn't say, "Ok, it is fine monks, go and have sex, but don't enjoy it too much, observe it with wisdom, OK?". Why in the Vinaya there are rules so specific as those that describe the way they should eat, how to receive and ask for things? Why a monk is expelled from the Sangha if he kills another human?, why the Vinaya doesn't say, "Ok, if you killed, it is just conditions you know, it was not really you, you know, that anatta thing, OK?, if you feel like killing again, just observe with wisdom, preferably BEFORE the killing, hopefully that will make the killing desire to pass away, if not, oh well, there is re-birth and with the law of kamma, that means that the human you killed, deserved it, so no hard feelings, now go on and keep observing with wisdom." In summary why the Vinaya is mainly a set of rules encouraging certain behaviour? Last observation: I am almost 100% sure that all the members of this mailing list cling to the concept of "self", so, use it as a tool!!! Use everything you encounter (things, situations, feelings, personal relationships, the weather, the news, etc.) as a tool to attain Nibbana, just don't forget that you have to drop everything, and because you can't drop everything just by snapping your fingers, you have to "observe with wisdom" (there you go, you have ALSO to "observe with wisdom") what and when to drop each tool you use. mmm...ok, the above sounds like I am giving advice and I know what I am talking about, but I really don't (except for the part about the little kids, I am painfully experienced in that area), and while my mind is much much more peaceful, and my defilements have been tamed to more subtle levels (with an ocassional spike here and there), I am still not qualified to give advice, specially because I still cling to that self who is training (because so far, the illusion is that it is working), so think of all this message as me "thinking out loud". Ajahn Chah (and I think he really knows what he is talking about) said: "What is Dhamma?, there is nothing that it is not". mmm.. not enough Pali in my message?... Ok.. Sabbe-satta avera hontu (May all beings be free from hatred) Sabbe-satta sukhita hontu (May all being be happy) (I hope I got the spelling right). -- Hugo 41842 From: seisen_au Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 7:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca as characteristic Hi Nina and all, >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or >without the arising of Tathaagatas. The characteristic of no-self is >not made known without the arising of the Enlightened Ones, it is >made known only on the arising of the Enlightened Ones...> Wouldnt it be only a conceptual understanding of anicca that is made known without the arising of a tathaagata rather than the anicca characteristic of paramattha dhammas? Thanks steve 41843 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 3:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Self view, conceit, sense of self etc. Hi, TG (and Jon) - In a message dated 2/6/05 2:24:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Jon > > When I refer to the "sense-of-self," I merely mean the way each of us feels > ourselves to be a "me." This might be closest to being compared with > conceit. > Conceit in English generally has a negative connotation of being overly > selfish, arrogant, or "self satisfied." I think of sense-of-self as more > palinly > stated IMO. Its nothing elaborate. Its just the plain feeling or sense of > "I > am." > > This might also be considered an "intuitive sense" albeit delusional. > > TG > ===================== I mean by "sense of self" exactly the same as you, TG. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41844 From: Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. visible object neutral? Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/6/05 3:51:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > N: No, we have to distinguish: the object that is desirable or undesirable, > and citta which experiences it with different feelings about it. A pleasant > sense object may be experienced with akusala javana cittas accompanied by > unpleasant feeling. Possible. > ===================== What then does it mean for an object to be desirable (or undesirable)? What does it mean for a sense object that is felt as unpleasant to be pleasant. Why is it called "pleasant"? What is the criterion? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 41845 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Predominant roots? Hi Phil (Connie, Azita, Joop, Kel & all), Even with your knack for story-telling, I assure you that you’ll never outdo those girls when it comes to ‘colourful’ accumulations and past stories;-). --- Philip wrote: > So we're playing with fire if we pay too much attention to these > traits that we can see in ourselves, because it could lead us to > cultivate a strong self-image. .. … S: I agree with this. Momentary and anatta is the way to go. Only the Buddha had the full knowledge of anusayas (latent tendencies) and could really understand different characters. See more on carita (character) in these past posts, relevant to these discussions I think: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8750 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16501 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31985 We read examples such as the golden lily one (in a Jataka) and referred to in the first post #8750 and the Maha RahulaVada Sutta, when even Sariputta didn’t know the appropriate object for wise reflection at a given time. Also, recently others were mentioning Culapindika (Dhp story & Jataka too I think) whose arahant brother was quite unable to detect what he needed to hear. Only the Buddha could know in these examples what was appropriate at any given time. Different moments, different types….what’s gone is gone and who knows what cittas will arise in future? Yes, as you've been stressing, all types in succession, countlessly in a day. Even if someone like that fellow I mentioned keeps good sila and never speaks harshly throughout this lifetime, what about next lifetime? This life is just such a small blip? And then as you’ve all been pointing out, it is the right view and development of satipatthana that really counts. As we read in the suttas, the most unlikely of candidates became enlightened – drunks, murderers, thieves and so on too. None of this is meant to downplay the importance of sila and all types of kusala. Indeed, sila, samadhi and panna can only be perfected by ariyans. I appreciate Kel’s points about retreat living and having less akusala – as I’ve mentioned before (in one of those boring ‘been there, done that’ stories which James referred to;-)), it wasn’t difficult for me for the best part of a year in a meditation temple when I seldom needed to speak, not to speak harshly at all!! But is that any test of anything other than one’s attachment to being a certain way? The real test is when one leaves the centre and goes back to work with a difficult boss or students, is surrounded by household chores, family and so on, I think. Remember, Kel, the example of the maid-servant who got up later and later to test her calm, patient, even-tempered mistress until the latter snapped? Is the answer to get a better maid-servant or to really understand one's tendencies when they arise with detachment? [As another sideline, I was wanting to refer to the sutta which K.Sujin refers to whereby you can only know about someone's sila by living with them for a long time and being wise enough, about someone's concentration when there is danger and about someone's wisdom by keen questioning. Does anyone know a reference for it?] …. > I still find myself thinking about what Sarah posted the other > day, about the fellow she lives with ! :) … S: I have to tell you, Phil, that Jon was not too keen on me introducing that fellow to DSG, so I was hoping you wouldn’t pick up on that paragraph. Of course, it’s always the side-line note that might better have been deleted that gets the interest and this is the second time you’ve referred back to him.....:-) Anyway, introducing ‘that fellow’ was just meant to be an example that not trying to control cittas or to have all sorts of grand resolves and efforts doesn’t mean all hell will be let loose, as I thought some might fear. Also, I think we all know, that confidence and understanding of the value of what is good and what is bad (as opposed to just being told conventionally by parents, teachers or society) definitely leads to more of the wholesome states naturally. In this way, as panna grows, one is less likely to be influenced by colleagues or friends or ones own latent tendencies which recommend the alternatives at any given moment. Of course, understanding and any kusala is just for a moment, but we all know the precious value of these short moments. <…> >It is about nama and rupa, about kusala > and akusala, coming and going in a fluid yet conditioned way through > countless lifetimes. There are tendencies in this one lifetime, but > in absolute terms they don't really matter. But the conventional > thinking can also be helpful for now, because our insight, our panna > is still so weak. … S: Yes, well-put. Also lots of other good points in your discussions with the others on this thread as well. I've enjoyed everyone's posts and found lots of value. … > The tricky thing is to be able to benefit from thinking in > conventional terms without getting too caught up in it. More middle > way. … S: Well you wondered what K.Sujin would say about some other point and here she’d just say again ‘what appears now?’. The path is never about thinking, but about being aware of the present dhamma appearing or being experienced. No other way to eradicated the idea of self. Metta, Sarah ========= 41846 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 11:25pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 118 - Vitality/jivitindriya and Attention/manasikaara (b) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)contd] ***** Jívitindriya arises with the citta at the arising moment and it maintains the life of citta and the accompanying cetasikas, but it cannot make them stay beyond the dissolution moment; then jívitindriya has to fall away together with the citta and the accompanying cetasikas. The Atthasåliní states concerning jívitindriya: * "…it watches over those states (the accompanying dhammas) only in the moment of (their and its) existence, as water over lotuses, etc. And although it watches over them, arisen as its own property, as a nurse over the infant, life goes on only by being bound up with these states ( accompanying dhammas) that have gone on, as the pilot on the boat. Beyond the dissolution moment it does not go on, owing to the non-being both of itself and of the states which should have been kept going. At the dissolution moment it does not maintain them, owing to its own destruction, as the spent oil in the wick cannot maintain the flame of the lamp. Its effective power is as its duration." * ***** [Ch.7 Vitality(jivitindriya)and Attention(manasikaara)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 41847 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 6, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Request for Htoo (Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 117 jivitindriya Hi Phil & Htoo, --- Philip wrote: > Hello Htoo, and all > > Htoo, yesterday as I was reading through the binder in which I've > printed out "Cetasikas" I came across your Dhamma Thread on > jivitindriya. I thought it was very interesting and would be a good > thing for us to look at along with Nina's but now I can't find the > thread. Would you mind reposting it? Thanks in advance. ... S: You're right. It was an excellent D.T. (as were most of the series on Cetasikas and most others too imho). Here's a link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37088 ***** Also in U.P., there are some others here, but there is jivitindriya the mental factor being discussed here and also jivitindriya, the rupa. Some of these will be referring to the latter. Life Faculty (jivitindriya cetasika/rupa) 27698, 28429, 28480, 28535, 28679, 28681, 29012, 37088 Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo, if you repost your 37088 before seeing this note or in addition, that's fine too - lots of people don't follow links I'm sure. ======= 41848 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Andrew L, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Sorry for the long time between posts, will try to do better in the > future. .. ;-) To start with this note, no problem. I’m just happy that you’re back on the thread. (Meantime, one or two others picked it up and gave me lots of food for thought too, as you probably saw). … > I must agree with another posted who said that the notion of self is > so ingrained in our pycho-physical organism that we operate based on > it, and that attempts to cultivate sati can be successful even while > using it. I am assuming that the wrong views you are talking about > are less significant than the self-nature we operate day by day by. …. S: of course there are degrees of all kinds of kilesa (defilements). Wrong views of all kinds need to be seen for what they are when they arise. I was just reminded of the danger of wrong views when I read in one of Htoo’s threads about kinds of akusala kamma patha and particularly about wrong view which can lead to unhappy rebirths. A sotapanna, of course, had no more wrong view and no more conditions for the kinds of akusala patha that can lead to such rebirths. So I’d say that any moments of attempting to cultivate sati ‘while using it’ (notion of self) will not be helpful at all. Awareness and wisdom need to differentiate between such moments of wrong view or practice and real naturally arising awareness. … > It is good to recognize there is no self, but if we use the > term 'one' or 'person' we should clarify as to how far one can > cultivate sati from 'normal self-view' as I will call self-view that > stays until supramundane paths, or how much one has to give up > control completely and merely wait for the conditions for sati to > arise, or to step back with detachment on it. … S: it seems like there are these various choices and dilemmas, but that’s only because the ideas of self and control etc are so ingrained in our views. No ‘we’ to do or wait. … >If one of the > conditions is to read, study, or discuss dhamma, I would say that > that's still operating with normal self-view, and that's on par with > cultivating sati intentionally. … S: Depends on the presnt moment states. For example, now we’re reading and ‘talking’. Does there have to be any self-view or intention for a self to have sati now? Isn’t there just seeing visible object,reflecting on what we see, thinking, confusion and so on? In the end, only panna (understanding) can know. …. >I haven't tried detachment and > allowing sati to arise on its own, …. S: Excuse me for interrupting your flow, but I don’t think detachment can ever arise or develop by ‘trying’. I think it arises with understanding which ‘knows’ what is being experienced. That’s all. … <…> >if you > study dhamma, are you doing it with the idea "I should study dhamma > to support conditions for sati" or "This is (my/Sarah's) book."? … S: No, surprising as it may be to some here, I’ve never felt ‘I should study dhamma’ (i.e read dhamma) and yet I appreciate it when I have the chance. I think it’s partly K.Sujin’s influence. She’s never told me to read/study texts (unless I want to find some references, for example), but always just to be aware of present dhammas by understanding more and more about their characteristics. I told Phil before that I went through years of having a very busy work schedule and would usually drop off to sleep as soon as I opened a sutta at night. K.Sujin visited us several times then and never once suggested I should work less, read more or do anything different. She’d just talk about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking, feeling and other dhammas to be known when they appeared as anatta. Very simple, but we have to hear, read and consider a lot to appreciate these words, I think. Thanks to DSG, all Nina's, Htoo's and everyone else's writings and less work these days, I do read much more - but I still don't ever think when I'm working or hiking or doing yoga that I should be reading dhamma or anything like that. As for ‘Sarah’s book’. Of course I often think of ‘Sarah’s book’. This can be with or without wrong view of self however;-) Some people think we shouldn’t have any possessions or have particular beds or seats or spots in the yoga room (as we all tend to do in my morning class!!). However, even the Buddha had his own robes, his own kuti (cell/space) etc. On our recent trip we could see at Jetavana how there were different kutis with the largest for the Buddha, then the key disciples, then Rahula and so on. Also, going up Vulture’s Peak, we saw the special caves for maha Moggallana, Sariputta, maha Kassappa and then the kutis for Ananda and the Buddha. So, just because you or I have a large library, doesn't mean more wrong view;-). It may just indicate a keen interest in the teachings. Again, only panna can know at any given moment. …. >It > seems we can generate the conditions for sati, … S: Excuse me again, but not ‘we’ who can… … >but I'd like to hear > your take on whether or not it is mostly uncontrollable (if it is > uncontrollable, why do we, who are interested in the BuddhaDhamma > experience it, but others do not? … S: Conditions. Having heard, listened, considered and again like now. We think ‘we’ can decide to hear, read posts and so on, but this is only true in a conventional sense. What is this ‘we’? …. >It seems only because of what we > actually do, same with the paramis IMO.) This may seem like a hard- > line stance but it is in accordance with my experience. Still, I > would like to hear about cittas with wrong view of self and their > significance in how our practise unfolds. …. S: What ‘we actually do’, are just cittas and cetasikas performing their functions according to conditions. Considering the quality of metta now, how gentle, friendly and humble it is, is a condition then and there for metta to develop just a little perhaps. If however, there is an idea that by concentrating on oneself, or on the metta sutta to have more metta, or on another being likewise, wrong view of self is sure to be there. One is then following a ritual motivated by clinging to a self with more metta. Oh, the path is subtle;-). Andrew, that was just your first paragraph and there is so much more good material and questions, but I think I’ll leave it there for now as it’s already long enough. Please keep responding and I’ll try to pick up other points/qus later this week (I’ve got lots of posts I’m hoping to reply to). Metta, Sarah ====== 41849 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo1 Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > I think we are missing something. That is you missed something or I > missed something. … S:;-) it can happen easily, but we both mean well. I think it was because I responded to a commented of yours referring to kusala cittas following the experience of a desirable object and suggested the javana cittas might well be unwholesome thought he tadarammana vipaka cittas would be kusala vipaka. My stress was intended to be on the javana cittas but I didn’t make it clear and you took it to be on the tadarammanas. No problem and the other point has been cleared up too. Let me just summarise any outstanding points of difference (while stressing again that I’m sure most your detail is correct and I greatly appreciate it): 1. H:> You may notice that even among these 4 concise summary of conditions > there are upanissaya and kamma. > > So it is not unusual that kamma and upanissaya are mixed. … S: Right and kamma paccaya always needs upanissaya to bring its results too. We were discussing naanaakkhanika kamma paccaya (asynchronous kamma condition) and I like the way you stress in some later threads about kamma patha leading to results in the way of rebirth and during life. … > Htoo: > > As long as dhamma are not abyakata they will be kusala or akusala. If > akusala or kusala why should they not have naanaakkhanika kamma > condition or 'asynchronous kamma condition'. … S: Just because 19 kusala cetasikas (i.e cetana) and 14 akusala cetasikas have this potential does not mean, as I understand that everytime they arise, they act as asynchronous kamma condition. …. > If I were thinking with hatred to destroy something or someone > repeatedly in my mind, should these thought be freed from kamma > condition. … S: There may (like in a dream) be partial kamma patha factors in place. We know that in this case, results can only only arise during the present life, but not rebirth consciousness. Of course, there can be complete akusala kamma patha throught the mind….we could check and analyse the various factors, but I’m not sure how important it is? …. > > I was not killing anyone but was thinking killing someone. I even did > not say a word for killing but still thinking to kill. Should those > thoughts be freed from verdict of kamma paccaya. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- … S: No one is killed and no deed is carried out, so it’s not killing. But again, there is intention and a being – so partial factors. There can be results during life. Even if there were not full or partial kamma patha, the hatred and wrong view would accumulate and assist other akusala kamma (patha) in future by upanissaya paccaya, so it’s not ‘free’ of any verdict!! … Maha Kassapa’s corpse which could not be cremated etc. I’ve not heard this. I’d be interested to know where it can be found if anyone knows, but not important. Metta, Sarah ======= 41850 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for your reply. This is my second reply as the one I have > already type was lost. …. S: I’m always very sorry to hear this. Thank you for taking the trouble to write at length again. Thank you also for all your posts on various realms and so on. I hope to catch up this week with the Chinese new year holiday. Once more, pls assume I agree with all your helpful comments snipped. Just outstanding points left: > What I said about javana citta is in normal conditions agreeable > object or ati-itthia-arammana is unusally apperceived by kusala > javana citta or abyakata javana citta. In that case tadarammana are > kusala vipaka. If javana are somanassa then tadarammana will more > likely to be somanassa cittas. When somanassa citta it is not akusala > vipaka citta. …. S: This is the point we keep getting stuck on. From your other messages, I think you mean is ‘usually apperceived by kusala javana citta or abyakata javana citta’ above. My question before and still is, surely in normal conditions, agreeable objects are usually experienced with lobha (akusala javana cittas) and not by kusala javana cittas??? *We agree on the tadarammana cittas;-)* …. ***** …. On kasinas and jhanas H:> If you choose bhavana-kusala there have to arise bhavana-kusala > cittas. If you choose kasina for example 'white circle' then the mind > will take the idea of white. > > As initiation you will not be all the time on 'the idea of white'. > But there are different thoughts. Again in this bhavana solution > there is dilute-citta-on-the-idea-of-white because you are > thinking 'what you will do tomorrow' 'what you will reply Htoo' 'what > you will cook for the whole family' and endless thought. > > At first you see that 'O! Buddho! My thoughts are no more on the idea > of white and I have been drifted away of tomorrow matters. Then you > will be again onn the idea of white. …. S: To me, you’ve explained how there can be concentration on a white object, but said nothing to suggest why it is wholesome or leading to calm in anyway. Non-distractednes, focus and so on are just as much qualities of akusala jhana factors as of kusala jhana factors. I cannot see any value in such focus, to be honest and think that such a practice if intensely followed could lead to sheer madness, all in the name of jhanas. Apologies for my directness here. … > > At a time, you will be most of the time 'on the idea of white'. This > is because you understand that the thought of tomorrow etc etc called > hindrances are not good and then you re-direct to 'the idea of > white'. This is wisdom. … S: We may just have to disagree here. I watched an interesting interview with Tiger Woods the golf player who was talking about how focused he is at times that he has no idea about any people or things around him at all. Just an idea of white doesn’t make a citta kusala in anyway. How could it without proper understanding first? …. > But it does not cast any light on 'anicca, dukkha, anatta' which is > unique to 'Buddhism'. > > Once you and I argued on jhana matters. You said that jhanas were > taught by The Buddha or something like that and you seemed to mean it > is totally impossible to attain any jhanas without studying jhanas in > Buddhism. … S: You referred to this in another post too and so I’m glad to correct it, Htoo. Sukin will remind you (we discussed it, so I know he’ll remember, but he's too smart to buy into trouble;-);-)). It was you who was referring to Buddhist and non-Buddhist jhanas and it was I who was saying that jhana cittas are jhana cittas regardless of whether one is a Buddhist or not;-) ;-). I could find the old posts, but it doesn’t matter who said what. It’s more important that we just discuss and agree now if possible. So, we both agree now? …. >At that time, I said there are 2 teachers who attained 3rd > and 4th arupa jhana respectively and they did not know any anicca, > dukkha, anatta and they were not taught by The Buddha but they taught > The Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama. … S: Yes. … Tikkha and mandha puggala – thank you for explaining about the 2 or 3 phala cittas etc. I’ve read about this in Vism but wasn’t familiar with these terms. I don’t know if you’re right to use as examples ‘intelligent scientists’ etc here in the same paragraph as ariyans and phala cittas. When it comes to the two and three roots Connie was referring to, the kind of intelligence to develop insight has no correlation (as far as I know) with the kind of intelligence we conventionally think about or is necessary for a scientist. Just a thought. Metta, Sarah p.s Larry and Jon recently quoted the following: >See CMA p.172: "Whether on a given occasion one experiences an >undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is >governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the >opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of >consciousness (vipaakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the >nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a >facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face." …. S: So when it comes to the bad news or foul smell, for example, it will depend at any given moment whether akusala vipaka cittas will arise, primarily conditioned by previous kamma but supported or given ‘the opportunity’ by the object. For example, hearing is conditioned primarily by kamma, but without sound having arisen, ear-base and so on (as you’ve explained many times), no hearing. I don’t think we have any disagreement here;-). 41851 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 4:02am Subject: Re: Test Your Knowledge of the Dhamma/ Howard & Ken O. Dear Tep, Thanks for your other post. :-) I'll reply to this one by inserting comments between your own. > S: (about pariyatti and patipatti) From my perspective, pariyatti is > inferior to patipatti only in that the latter is direct knowing of that which > the former points to. > > T: I am in agreement with you here, except that I think only pativedha > (penetration, realization) is "direct knowing", not patipatti. Sukinder: Yes, I think pativedha is `knowing' of a deeper level than patipatti. However this relates to realization, before this stage panna *knows* by degrees and satipatthana is knowing nama and rupa with different levels, and this is patipatti. > T: There is more than one way to reach the top of a mountain. Most > monks and laypersons I know, who are "serious" Buddhists, believe in > finding the shortest cut through Sila- Samadhi- Panna, where Samadhi > means Samadhi-bhavana and Panna means Vipassana-bhavana as > expounded in the Visuddhimagga (which is based on many suttas). Sukinder: But do you see that the idea of `finding the shortest cut through Sila- Samadhi- Panna' may go against the Teachings about the need to `develop the parami' and that the process involves `long time development' (meaning aeons over aeons)? Do you also make the conclusion that the Buddha taught a short-cut method? > T: The "moment of satipatthana", as I understand it, is a part of > Vipassana for attaining pativedha. Sukinder: Do you mean to associate satipatthana with so called `Vipassana meditation'? > T: Dana and Sila are part of the "brick-laying" like Connie used to say. > If you want to call that parami, not included in patipatti, it is fine with me > too. Sukinder: I think Dana and Sila are parami only when they are known with sati and panna. A Christian or Moslem with wrong view, being generous and moral is not in my opinion developing the parami at any time, though this may condition a good habit. And if and when in the future he or she comes to appreciate the Dhamma, this accumulated habit can become an asset in terms of developing the parami. And obviously developing the parami *is* patipatti. > T: Being alone is kaya-viveka ('abiding in solitude free from alluring > sensuous objects'). Sukinder: I think that this is important for developing Jhana, but is it of any consequence in terms of developing vipassana panna? > S: We don't know what level of akusala will arise at any given moment, > likewise what level of sati and panna. This is why it is good to listen > and consider more and more, because we need all sorts of reminders. > > T: I think you need to do more bhavana and less reading and listening > (unless you listen to Dhamma talks given by an Ariya). Sukinder: I agree with anyone who states that patipatti is more important than pariyatti. But I think that it may be self-defeating to think that "I can or should develop more patipatti and be less concerned about pariyatti." Firstly both these terms refer to levels of panna not necessarily related to any conventional activity. Secondly, they are anatta and arises and falls because of conditions unrelated to any thinking and decision on my part. In other words, if my level of understanding is such that I seek to understand more on the `conceptual' level, I will read dsg, but there is no guarantee that there will be any understanding. However, if indeed the conditions are right, even while reading, there can be a moment of satipatthana. And this I believe would have been in part because there was no `self' trying to direct the show. ;-) > S: We do however need to know the difference between samatha and > vipassana. We should see the importance of developing panna as > taught particularly by the Buddha. Also it is important to know > clearly their difference. > > T: How would you know "the difference between samatha and > vipassana" if you do very little (or zero?) samatha-bhavana but a lot > more on listening and reading? Sukinder: As has often been pointed by some of us, pariyatti *is* a level of panna which should not be overlooked. And this is not a matter of theorizing, but right understanding of particular level. So there can be *right* understanding of the concept of samatha-bhavana esp. when informed by a corresponding level of understanding about conditionality. So don't you think that this may be more reliable than any reference to experience which may have resulted from lobha and ditthi? There is no `learning from experience' if driven by avijja. And wrong view does appear right to the person who has it, no? > S: (About the importance of Right exertion and viriya-bala) Are you > thinking that there is some `short cut method', one that will bypass any > lack of accumulated parami? Many people view meditation practice, > particularly `jhana', in this way. They think that these are special > techniques taught by the Buddha and developed by later `masters' > (Zen, Dzogchen etc) for the purpose of getting to enlightenment `in this > very life'. I think this is all symptomatic of `attachment to self'. > > T: Those later masters cannot be complete fools. Don't put them down > too easily! The strength of Right exertion/effort that is the characteristic > of viriya bala is important like a rocket booster to propell a spacecraft > into the outer space. Many, many stories of successful monks during > the Buddha Era and after that to the recent history, e.g. those several > well-known Burmese and Thai acariyas ( the Forest monks) are my > supporting evidence, Sukinder. How many monks and lay-persons > you know have achieved an Ariya-magga without the "formal > meditation" and jhanas? Can you give me just one name, please?:-) Sukinder: I was particularly talking about Mahayana, and no, I don't think there can possibly be one enlightened person within this group. In fact I think the label Buddhism should not include both the Pali and the Mahayana teachings, they are too different and only one of them is right. I have little knowledge of the so-called `Burmese and Thai acariyas', and have no reason to think them enlightened, unless of course I believe what most people say about them. I heard that many years ago there was a monk in some part of Thailand who was considered an ariyan by many people. Even he thought that he had `attained' something. But he heard K. Sujin on radio and soon came to realize that he really did not attain even the first level of insight. So he decided to disrobe and from then on became K. Sujin's student. At one time of course, I thought *all* of them were enlightened, even famous teachers of other religions. Now my view has changed. I also speculated about certain living person, thinking that he or she must be enlightened; now it does not matter at all. What good will it do to me to try and find out if someone is enlightened or not. After being convinced about the supreme enlightenment of the Buddha, my only duty is to try to understand his Teachings. I think we should consider and reflect on the causes instead of dwelling on the results. I am a beginner and I like to hear about the basics which I know only intellectually, again and again. Difficult concepts like D.O. don't interest me as much. Do I know tanha, do I know vedana, and do I know jati? My understanding of aversion, attachment, feeling, conceit, jealousy, seeing, hearing, hardness, taste and so on is so infused with `self', how can I understand the D.O. except in theory. And with all the tanha and avijja, would I not risk fooling myself into thinking that I know and understand more than I really do? I think most of us in this day and age are beginners. So to me a good teacher is one who is always pointing to the basics. In this regard I think K. Sujin is unique and I consider her a superior teacher. There are some who listen to her and grow tired of her repeating the same old basic things over and over again. They want to hear her expound the Patthana and other difficult texts, and leave when they see that she does not encourage such ambition. I think these people are `stupid'. They do not even appreciate the fact that she is being so very patient, more than a mother to her child. How many of us can be so patient with our own children when they come back to us with the same old problems. I certainly don't! In the end, it is panna which seeks and recognizes panna and there is no need for any conventional designation. As to viriya, it can be both akusala and kusala, Bodhidharma sitting facing the wall for 11 years may impress many people, but you and I, having pariyatti understanding about dhammas, should not be fooled by outer appearance. Besides it is very easy to confuse the ability to put into own words what one has read in the texts and think it to be direct and own understanding. I judge again from what the person teaches. Does he know what a beginner needs to hear? Does he come out with a voice of authority and says to the effect, "Just sit"? Such statements in my view are one of the most uncompassionate and irresponsible ones. > T: Okay, you want to talk theoretical dhammas. Let's discuss like two > bookworms would do. First, everything is dhamma. Second, when > viriya becomes samma-vayama (Right effort/exertion) along with > samma-sati and samma-ditthi, the other Path factors become highly > developed. When all the 7 Path factors are matured, samma-samadhi > arises (See the Great Forty, MN 117). > > Further, do you remember the following passage from the > Visuddhimagga (VM I,7)? "Develops consciousness and > understanding: develops both concentration and insight. For it is > concentration that is described here under the heading > of 'consciousness', and insight under that of 'understanding'. Ardent > (aataapin): possessing energy. For it is energy that is called 'ardour' > (aataapa) in the sense of burning up and consuming (aataapana- > paritaapana) defilements." This shows how important trying-hard-the- > right-way is. Sukinder: Unfortunately I find the Visuddhimagga extremely hard to read, so I don't ever. I depend on friends here to give a sub-commentary in plain English. I am not saying that viriya is not important, it is. But without panna, what would be the object of viriya? > > Tep: Further, the four right exertions above show clearly that the > > monk has an intention, a purpose to develop and culminate > > his arisen skillful qualities (kusala dhammas) towards Nibbana > > (as the goal). I think you are talking about the one who is able to > > "know and see things the way > they really are", not about > > the mind of a worldling who has not reahed > that state. > > Before getting "there" you need "an act of will" with right exertions; > > once there, no need for intention. > > [ T: Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi probably shares the above view for he defines > samma-sankappa as Right intention.] Sukinder: If we can differentiate between cetana and vitakka, and if we would like to identify `thinking with a particular objective in mind' as `one's intention to do something', then I have no problem with calling this right/wrong intention. But as a dhamma I would not think this to be cetana, but rather vitakka (and any necessary associated state). But then Right intention would be determined by Sati and Panna, because only then the object would be a paramattha dhamma and not an `idea of a self wanting to do and achieve something'. > T: I completely agree with you (and Nina) about the danger of 'self' that > is subtly directing everything because of tanha and avijja. But I also > see a real danger in being an Armchair Dhamma Discusser, who > knows everything but accomplishes little because he/she does not > want to try "too hard" and wants to hold on to all (mundane) precious > things in life. Sukinder: There is danger at every turn as long as the conditions for lobha and avijja are there. Lobha acts as both the teacher as well as the student. And the concept of "trying hard" may be an instance of this same lobha. Panna sees the value in detachment and not to hold on to either theory or an idea of practice. Yes life is precious, and wrong practice would be a big waste of time. > Tep: May I stop at this point because the remainder does not involve new > issues? > > It is nice discussing with you, Sukinder, because you are, without any > doubt, a very intelligent man. I always learn from intelligent people, one > way or another. Sukinder: Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my long post. Please feel free to respond to this one at any convenient time. Metta, Sukin. 41852 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG TGrand458@a... wrote: >A mind-object would be classified as a nama. Namas do not exist without >being based on rupa. > > 'Nama' is the designation for dhammas that experience and object. If you say that thoughts are nama it suggests they experience an object (just like consciousness). But if thoughts are themselves mind-object, what object do they experience? >I really think the term "dhamma" has done far more harm than good. There are >not these "real states" out there with individual essence. You may think >that this is not what you are saying, but I don't see how it can be anything >other than that. To me, this "isolation" of trying to see individual states as >having realities...is taking the mind away from reality, not bringing it toward >it. > > I'd be interested to hear about the reality that you refer to here, and how it relates to the development of insight. Jon 41853 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 5:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anicca as characteristic --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hello Phil and Joop, > Sarah referred formerly to Dispeller of Delusion (p. 59) about the three > characteristics. He taught the characteristic of anatta by means of both the > impermanent and suffering. Dear Nina You stated: "It is explained that impermanence and dukkha are more obvious. " My question to Phil was: Do you think there is a hierarchy between anatta-dukkha-anicca ? In fact you (or the 'Dispeller') say: yes, anatta is higher, deeper, more difficult, than anicca! I do not agree with this, and I have Nyatiloka on my side: (as in # 41706) Nyatiloka: "It is from the fact of impermanence that, in most texts, the other two characteristics, suffering (dukkha) and not-self anattá), are derived." So I stick to my little theory: people fighting against their strong ego prefer anatta aspects as the core (of emptiness), people fighting against a need of ontology prefer anicca aspects. More general: partly it's a topic of difference in personality and partly it's a topic of difference in tradition if 'anatta' is the central concept or 'anicca; I got the impression the Dispellers belong to the anatta-tradition. Metta Joop > It is explained that impermanence and dukkha are more obvious. characteristic of no-self is unobvious, dark, unclear, subtle, difficult to > penetrate, difficult to illustrate, difficult to make known. > The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without > the arising of Tathaagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known > without the arising of the Enlightened Ones, it is made known only on the > arising of the Enlightened Ones...> > op 04-02-2005 00:59 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > The khandas and the six > > sense bases are all about anatta. Abhidhamma is all about anatta, > > isn't it? What is the study of cetasikas, for example, except to > > develop our understanding that there is no self. And anatta is so > > subtle and difficult to penetrate that different approaches, > > different classifications are all ways at helping. > > > > Isn't impermanence perhaps easier to > > understand to begin with, thus it comes first in those suttas? 41854 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >You accept the notion of >rupas as phenomena that are what they are in and of themselves, and that cittas >arise which somehow observe them. Whether there are such things I don't know, >and don't believe we *can* know. > Could you explain further why you say that the notion of rupas as phenomena, with own characteristic, cannot be known/verified. That seems to suggest that developed panna cannot know the true nature of the presently experienced sense-door object. Why do you take that view? >(I tend to dismiss, pragmatically, what is in >principle unverifiable.) > > Hmmm. A useful strategy. If you deem it unverifiable, you can conveniently decline to discuss it ;-)) > On the other hand, what *I* have been talking about are private, >internal experiences. The felt hardness that I experience is a physical experience, >and it is *that* which I say arises with the knowing of it, and ceases when >that knowing ceases. The hardness *you* (and Abhidhamma) speak of is an alleged >external thing that is the basis for up to 16 or 17 (I've seen both numbers) >hardness-experiencing cittas. You're talking about apples, Jon, and I'm >talking about oranges. > > Well, we'reboth talking about paramattha dhammas, but yours are a Howard version (mine are the Abhidhamma version as best I understand it). I hope you don't mind my asking, but is your description based on your own experience, or does it have some other source? Whichever of the two it is, how reliable is that source? Why do you regard them as 'paramattha dhammas'? "Paramattha dhammas are objects of a moment of consciousness, and they are created at that very moment of consciousness, having no 'existence' outside the moment of consciousness of which they are the object." Jon 41855 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca as characteristic Dear Joop, Nina, Steve & All, More from the earlier quote from Dispeller which I gave before. Having said that no-self is taught by means of the impermanent or by means of suffering or by both in the suttas, we read the passage about how no-self is 'unobvious, dark, unclear, difficult to penetrate, difficult to illustrate, difficult to make known' in comparison. further: From: The Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodani),Classification of Bases, 242f: "The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Englightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened ones. For such wanderers and ascetics (taapasa) as the master Sarabhanga are mighty and powerful and are able to express "the impermanent and painful": (but) they are unable to express "no-self". For if they were able to express "no-self" in a present assembly there would be penetration of path and fruition in the present assembly. For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious. That is why the Master, when teaching the characteristic of no-self, taught it by means of impermanence or by means of pain or by means of both impermanence and pain. But here it should be understood that he taught it by means of both impermanence and pain. But it is owing to not keeping what in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear?. Firstly the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati). The characteristic of pain does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating continuous oppression and owing to its being concealed by the postures (iriyaapatha). The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness. But when continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When the postures are exposed (ugghaa.tita) by keeping in mind continual oppression, the characteristic of pain appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibboga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature. And here the following difference should be understood: impermanence and the characteristic of impermanence, pain and the characteristic of pain, no-self and the characteristic of no-self. Herein, the five aggregates (pa~ncakhandha) are impermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or because of their absence after having been. Rise and fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence, or mode of alteration (aakaaravikaara) called absence after having been. But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words "what is impermanent is painful" (S iv 1). Why? Because of continual oppression. the mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain. But those five aggregates are no-self because of the words "what is painful is no-self" (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self." ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 41856 From: nina Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 6:55am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 136 Visuddhimagga XIV, 136 Vis. XIV, 136. (iii)-(v) What should be said about 'applied thought', 'sustained thought' and 'happiness' has already been said in the commentary on the first jhana in the Description of the Earth Kasina (Ch. IV,88-98). N: Applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicaara) and rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), are cetasikas that do not accompany every citta, such as the universals (sabbacitta-saadhaaranaa). They are among the cetasikas called the particulars (paki.n.naka). However, they accompany cittas of the four jaatis, of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. The Visuddhimagga (Ch IV, 88-98) has already dealt with these cetasikas in the context of the development of samatha. They are among the jhaana-factors which inhibit the hindrances in the development of samatha. Applied thinking, sustained thinking and rapture are enumerated here in this context of Vis. XIV, 136, since they are cetasikas included in sa²nkhaarakkhandha that accompany the first type of mahaa-kusala citta of the sense-sphere which is associated with paññaa and accompanied by pleasant feeling. Applied thinking and sustained thinking are not the same as what we mean by thinking in conventional sense. They also accompany cittas arising in sense-door processes. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, they accompany all cittas, except the two pairs of sense-cognitions. Thus, when seeing arises depending on the eye-base, it sees, and it does not need applied thinking and sustained thinking for the experience of visible object. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 88) defines vitakka as follows: ...Herein, applied thinking (vitakkama) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant. It has the characteristic of directing the mind onto an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike and thresh- for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object touched and struck at by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 88) defines vicaara as follows: ...Sustained thinking (vicara.na) is sustained thought (vicaara); continued sustenance (anusañcara.na), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent (mental) states (occupied) with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored (on that object). Vitakka touches the object and directs citta to the object, and vicaara keeps the citta occupied with the object. However, they arise with citta at the same time and fall away together with it. Thus, they perform their functions only during an extremely short time. The Visuddhimagga uses similes to show the difference between these two cetasikas, it illustrates that vitakka is more gross and vicaara more subtle. Applied thought is like the first striking of a bell and sustained thought the ringing of the bell. When the first type of mahaa-kusala citta arises it needs vitakka and vicaara for the experience of its object. Vitakka is a factor of the eightfold Path and it is in that case called, right thinking, sammaa-sa²nkappa. When insight is developed, vitakka touches the naama or ruupa that appears so that understanding can penetrate its characteristic. Right thinking is necessary so that precise understanding of one object at a time can be developed. When there is mindfulness of sound, vitakka Œhits¹ that object, so that understanding of sound can be developed and can realize it as a type of rupa. When there is mindfulness of hearing, vitakka Œhits¹ that object, so that there can be understanding of hearing as a type of nama. Paññaa and right thinking, sammaa-sa²nkappa, are the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Understanding of nama and rupa cannot develop without right thinking. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) defines piiti, rapture, as follows: ...It refreshes (pii.nayati, gladdens, satisfies), thus it is happiness (piiti). It has the characteristic of satisfaction (sampiyaayana). Its function is to refresh the body and the mind; or its function is to pervade (thrill with rapture). It is manifested as elation... In the case of kaamavaacara cittas, piiti accompanies all the cittas that are accompanied by happy feeling. It is delighted with the object citta and the accompanying cetasikas experience and it refreshes them. The Visuddhimagga describes the different intensities of piiti. In the foregoing definition the Visuddhimagga referred to pervading rapture, which is of the highest degree and this is a jhaana-factor. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere piiti also arises with akusala cittas, namely the lobha-muulacittas that are accompanied by pleasant feeling. In this context, where the Visuddhimagga deals with the khandha of formations, it refers to piiti arising with the first type of maha-kusala citta which is associated with wisdom and accompanied by pleasant feeling. A desirable object is one of the conditions for citta to be accompanied by pleasant feeling and thus also by rapture or enthusiasm. We read in the (Expositor I, p. 100): When there is strong confidence in the Triple Gem and the development of kusala, including right understanding, there are conditions for kusala citta with pa~n~naa that is accompanied by pleasant feeling and enthusiasm (piiti). When someone who performs daana has an excellent gift to be given and a receiver is present, there are conditions for happy feeling and enthusiasm. The Tiika to Vis. 84, explains as conditions for happy feeling accompanying kusala citta with paññaa: < an abundance of confidence, purity of view, the fact of having seen the benefit of wholesome deeds, a rebirth-consciousness with pleasant feeling, eleven factors that are the foundations for the enlightenment factor of rapture...> The enlightenment factors are developed through satipa.t.thaana. Among these are sati, investigation of dhamma, which is paññaa, and also rapture. We read in the Expositor (I p. 100): Without the development of satipa.t.thaana the enlightenment factor of rapture and the other enlightenment factors cannot develop. It is beneficial to remember that many conditions are needed for the arising of enthusiasm. When we have confidence in the benefit of siila, we can observe it with enthusiasm. Helping is also a form of siila, it is kusala through body or speech. When we read suttas about helping and serving others, we may have more confidence in the benefit of kusala and this is a condition for performing it with joy and enthusiasm. Attachment to such a type of kusala citta may arise shortly after the kusala citta. At such a moment there may be happy feeling and enthusiasm that is akusala. We can easily delude ourselves, and therefore, it is important to develop understanding that can discern different dhammas arising because of different conditions. **** Nina. 41857 From: Date: Mon Feb 7, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Jon and TG - You two seem to be in disgreement with each other. I, being equal-opportunity disagreeable, find that I have problems with each of your "positions". I will address them as they arise below. In a message dated 2/7/05 8:42:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Hi, TG > > TGrand458@a... wrote: > > >A mind-object would be classified as a nama. Namas do not exist without > >being based on rupa. > ------------------------------------ Howard: What do you mean by a "mind-object"? Do you mean a mind-door object? (What I mean by a mental phenomenon is any experience that is neither sight nor sound nor taste nor smell nor bodily sensation.